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in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer.

Depends on your definition of perfect.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer.


Mythology can be so much fun.

I generally dislike omnipotence paradoxes (they're easy to come up with...this is just one example). The classic example is "Can god make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?"

Chicken's assumptions about God actually don't match a good deal of Christian dogma (omniscient, yes. Omnipresent, yes. But perfectly good would be used to describe God, not perfectly everything). Perfection in a Christian sense would include only those virtues they consider to be good and "perfect." So to say that describing him as perfect means "perfectly evil" (among other things) betrays a misunderstanding of the usage of such terms in a theistic setting. And paradoxes in general don't get to the heart of the issue and just try to flummox believers with a question with two wrong answers (from a theistic perspective) and no right one. It's a false dichotomy, and once you realize that, usually paradoxes can be reconciled with traditional views of the divine.

The fact that I agree with chicken here is irrelevant, because this mode of attack has little merit imo, and is easily countered.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Mythology can be so much fun.

Indeed.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer.

Perfect in the sense that he is all good.

The only contingent being in the universe.

But God can not do bad for himself. "All good" can only mean all good for God so it's completely possible

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer.
Such is God's Perfection that His Contradictions are perfect, His Lacking is perfect; in fact, everything comes together for the perfect paradox.

Now that's perfection!

Hehe...nice answers all. Like I said, not a fruitful line of attack most of the time.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Hehe...nice answers all. Like I said, not a fruitful line of attack most of the time.

I think that the paradox he constructed her was pretty weak anyway...doesn't quite match up with the more convention "unliftable rock" thing. Though, such arguments are illogical really...its not so much a paradox as flying in the face of the obvious.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
God is perfect because he defines pefect,...

Circular logic.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
And using the rules of this world to create omnipotence paradoxes such as DigiMark007 mentioned "Can god make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" is rather silly, especially when you consider the odd happens in quantum physics where you can throw the physical laws which govern our world out the window. Who knows what other odd law "zones" there are, and if God is even part of them which I doubt.

Lulz at the bold, but I was just mentioning it to point out a classic example of such logic. I wasn't actually employing it as part of my argument.

Though simply appealing to the "oddness" of quantum physics, and speculating that there may be others, is really just blind but fanciful meandering, and gets us nowhere. Hard as it is to understand from a layman's perspective, quantum mechanics follows observable rules and patterns. It's not mystical voodoo, and remains in the realm of empirical science.

Evil and Good, are arbitrary categories created by man. In reality they're degrees of the same thing. G8d is 3vil and Evil is a form of the G8d. Like the wave particle duality, the problem of evil arises out of man's feeble categorization but in reality there is no problem.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer.

You do have a point, but God decreed that sin is not the way. Sin goes against God's will. This does not mean Sin is not apart of God. It is like a parent laying ground rules for their children and not following those rules themselves. Like a parent, God gave us life and gave us rules to live by. In hopes that we may follow his will. The instructions of God's will are there for us to follow so that we can become as divine as possible. If you believe in God then you have Faith. If you Faith, then you believe that God has a plan and is infallible. If God does, indeed, have a plan and is infallible. This means Satan was apart of his plan. God is everything, both, good and evil. So, if God is all knowing and is both good and evil. It comes down to the individual to make their own choice...,the greatest gift and only freedom we have. Do you believe in his existence? If you do, will you follow the few words he has given us? Today, there is not very much to add to the concept of a God...,other than our desire of wanting to believe. Maybe, that desire is all there ever was, but there is still a desire.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer. In the Christian Bible/religion is says that god is in all things seen and unseen, so, god is in Satan also.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
In the Christian Bible/religion is says that god is in all things seen and unseen, so, god is in Satan also.

Co-Signed

The Devil is Perfect Evil, therefore he is perfect Good, in a way, the Devil is God's bad side, this is why the Devil is so powerful, if you watch the Exorcist, you'll see that the Devil couldn't be so evil, he couldn't do the things he did unless he knew what it was like to be good.

God can't change who he is, he can't be good or bad, he has to be neutral, every part of him cancels out with opposites, he isn't a man, this is why he created Jesus Christ, once he created Jesus Christ, since he IS in all things seen and unseen, he CAN be good, Jesus isn't perfect, unlike the Angels, unlike the Devil, unlike God, Jesus is man, Jesus has the ability to feel pain, and chose, God was willing to see the outcome of his creation, Jesus Christ, what Jesus Christ chose, God would be, and once Jesus Christ chose to be Crucified, the devil was canceled out, and God was perfect in one way, good.

And it's not that Jesus chose to be crucified, it's that he chose not to curse, or scream, or become evil in the process.

But then the bible contridicted itself

Originally posted by Deja~vu
In the Christian Bible/religion is says that god is in all things seen and unseen, so, god is in Satan also.

T

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
You do have a point, but God decreed that sin is not the way. Sin goes against God's will. This does not mean Sin is not apart of God. It is like a parent laying ground rules for their children and not following those rules themselves. Like a parent, God gave us life and gave us rules to live by. In hopes that we may follow his will. The instructions of God's will are there for us to follow so that we can become as divine as possible. If you believe in God then you have Faith. If you Faith, then you believe that God has a plan and is infallible. If God does, indeed, have a plan and is infallible. This means Satan was apart of his plan. God is everything, both, good and evil. So, if God is all knowing and is both good and evil. It comes down to the individual to make their own choice...,the greatest gift and only freedom we have. Do you believe in his existence? If you do, will you follow the few words he has given us? Today, there is not very much to add to the concept of a God...,other than our desire of wanting to believe. Maybe, that desire is all there ever was, but there is still a desire.

but if god knows everything nothing is a choice. with complete prior knowledge your destined to preform an action, therefore negating anysort of choice

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
if you watch the Exorcist, you'll see that the Devil couldn't be so evil, he couldn't do the things he did unless he knew what it was like to be good.

...horror film theology ftw!!

Originally posted by chickenlover98
but if god knows everything nothing is a choice. with complete prior knowledge your destined to preform an action, therefore negating anysort of choice

yeah, but maybe there are many pre-determined destinies and our choices decide which we live. If God does all, he knows every decision that we will be faced with and maybe each choice leads to it's own predetermined destiny, but we still have free choice to decide on which path we take.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer.

Instead of just saying you're wrong, I'll give you a present.


http://www.blainetucker.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/buddy%20Jesus.jpg

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
yeah, but maybe there are many pre-determined destinies and our choices decide which we live. If God does all, he knows every decision that we will be faced with and maybe each choice leads to it's own predetermined destiny, but we still have free choice to decide on which path we take. no we do not. because there is no choice to a predetermined destiny. that statement in itself if a contradiction, because its already predetermined. with complete knowledge, there is a 0.000000% margin of error. it WILL happen. for a fact. nothing changes that. therefore, in the "grand scheme" free will is merely an illusion.

however without knowledge every choice is "free"

Originally posted by Toku King
Instead of just saying you're wrong, I'll give you a present.


http://www.blainetucker.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/buddy%20Jesus.jpg OMFG its buddy christ!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by DigiMark007
...horror film theology ftw!!

I'm appalled you didn't counter with Lucifer.

Originally posted by Kapton JAC
Think back on history and you will see that this is a truth. For example, take knowledge of computers, TVs, Cellphones, and other electronic devices that we use on a daily basis back to the middle ages, or even the 1800's and much of the 1900's and they will think of these machines as illogical and impossible, because their logic was based on what was known at that time. But, since we live in a time that these are in constant contact with these objects, it seems perfectly rational to think about their existance. So why do people think that our logic is so exelent even now?



That statement is true... IF our logic is perfect, which we know it isn't. Look to my previous example for an enlightening illustration. thats why the concept of an all knowing god is impossible ESPECIALLY in the christian sense. with omniscience, free will doesnt exist. therefore your being placed into hell or heaven before your even BORN. if thats real, then the christian god is just a sadist

You guys do know that demons/devils/whatever are just "fallen angels" right?

* in accordance to the bible

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer. Well I can easily say that lying, and evil in general are all imperfections. The word perfect is very subjective.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer.
This is dumb. Really, really dumb. Seriously, don't try and pass this pseudophilosophical/pseudointellectual tripe off as anything but the excrement that it is. If you want to play stupid word games, go play the daily Jumble.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
This is dumb. Really, really dumb. Seriously, don't try and pass this pseudophilosophical/pseudointellectual tripe off as anything but the excrement that it is. If you want to play stupid word games, go play the daily Jumble. thank you for YET AGAIN adding absolutely nothing to a discussion. play your strengths bud.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
thank you for YET AGAIN adding absolutely nothing to a discussion. play your strengths bud.

He wasn't incorrect however.

I prefer the omniscience/free will paradox.

I didn't realize it was one.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I didn't realize it was one.

Using most definitions of omniscience it is.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Using most definitions of omniscience it is.

Depends on your definition of time though doesn't it.

Originally posted by chithappens
You guys do know that demons/devils/whatever are just "fallen angels" right?

* in accordance to the bible Fallen can mean many different things.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer. just reading the thread name gave me a headache.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I prefer the omniscience/free will paradox. oh you like my idea? i think its quite a good argument

Hey don't let the lack of deffiniton of God stop you repeting something which has been repeted on this forum 50 times over.

Christianity is not hard to pull apart - its more dificult to form a deffinition of God without refering to Christianity, isn't it?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Hey don't let the lack of deffiniton of God stop you repeting something which has been repeted on this forum 50 times over.

Christianity is not hard to pull apart - its more dificult to form a deffinition of God without refering to Christianity, isn't it?

Here you go: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer.

god plays against death like a ping pong ball. By dividing into many aspects he's able to take all paths at once, and since he is in everyone for he is everyone, he can do as he pleases with his body!

Originally posted by chickenlover98
thats why the concept of an all knowing god is impossible ESPECIALLY in the christian sense. with omniscience, free will doesnt exist. therefore your being placed into hell or heaven before your even BORN. if thats real, then the christian god is just a sadist

It has been proven time and time again that our perspective is only a fraction of what there is. Our logic is based on that infinitesimal perspective of all that there is around us, so, when you realize that, you have to realize that all-in-all the so-called "Paradoxes" of God could actually not be paradoxes. To our perspective, which is like a grain of sand on a beach it may be a paradox... but then again... we understand so little that, in the end, what we consider a paradox may not be a paradox at all.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

What is it that makes you such an authority on the supposed contradictions in The Bible? How much of it have you read?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
thank you for YET AGAIN adding absolutely nothing to a discussion. play your strengths bud.
Hey, if God is perfect, then God is perfect injustice and perfect justice. GOD DOESN'T EXIST OMG?!?1!!1!1!

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Hey, if God is perfect, then God is perfect injustice and perfect justice. GOD DOESN'T EXIST OMG?!?1!!1!1! thats kinda like....the point i was makin. grats u graduate the first grade AND you get a gold star!

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Depends on your definition of perfect. Touche'

Originally posted by chickenlover98
thats kinda like....the point i was makin. grats u graduate the first grade AND you get a gold star!
You're so dumb that it hurts.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
You're so dumb that it hurts. that hurts SO MUCH coming from an ******* like you cry. you are a prime example of why the world hates the USA

Originally posted by Deja~vu
In the Christian Bible/religion is says that god is in all things seen and unseen, so, god is in Satan also.
The problem lies in stating that satan is 3vil snake|desire that temps the (w=omega=last)-man to be with the (a=alpha=first)-man.

These tales can be taken literally but they're also guidelines for behavioral and appropriate conduct, it is true that a man that only thinks of desire and sex will probably end up ruining the relationship and end in divorce.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
but if god knows everything nothing is a choice. with complete prior knowledge your destined to preform an action, therefore negating anysort of choice

Unless god is actually everybody at once, and thus it is him making the choices at the times the choices are made.... it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you keep adding powers upon powers eventually he's everybody doing every single thing.

Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
Unless god is actually everybody at once, and thus it is him making the choices at the times the choices are made.... it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you keep adding powers upon powers eventually he's everybody doing every single thing. the bible states he has these "powers". by christian logic freewill is an illusion

Originally posted by En Sabah Nur X
The problem lies in stating that satan is 3vil snake|desire that temps the (w=omega=last)-man to be with the (a=alpha=first)-man.

These tales can be taken literally but they're also guidelines for behavioral and appropriate conduct, it is true that a man that only thinks of desire and sex will probably end up ruining the relationship and end in divorce. You're making the story very abstract though I believe it is more metaphor anyway, but the last thing kind of confuses me for some reason.

True.



What contradictions? Please elaborate to substantiate your post.



Being good (holy) refers to the nature of Almighty God. God is incapable of evil (sin), much like you are incapable of breathing water. God is pure; on the other hand, Satan -- the master deceiver -- is the polar opposite of Almighty God. God is incapable of lying.

Who's definition of Perfect are we using here?

The Bible.

I wasnt asking you, I was asking Mr. "perfect means he is everything good and everything bad"...

OIC

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Hey don't let the lack of deffiniton of God stop you repeting something which has been repeted on this forum 50 times over.

Christianity is not hard to pull apart - its more dificult to form a deffinition of God without refering to Christianity, isn't it?

Quite arrogant to put yourself up against some of the greatest minds who have ever lived...

Funny how you pulled Christianity apart without difficulty when over 2000 years noone else has actually managed it..

Oh FYI if I say, I have proved that Elephants are from Mars...it doesnt make it so.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
oh you like my idea? i think its quite a good argument

Your idea?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Your idea?

I love it when the young ones discover something for the first time not realizing that it is only the first time for them.

Shakyamunison-

Why don't you stop the theatrics and debate Grand Moff Gav?

Originally posted by ushomefree
Shakyamunison-

Why don't you stop the theatrics and debate Grand Moff Gav?

I don't know what you are talking about. I don't see any theatrics, and if Grand Moff Gav wishes to debate something, all he has to to is tell me.

I think you are missing on what is going on. Grand Moff Gav is my friend, and we will from time to time poke fun at each other.

I like this topic.

Yes, most people think God is this combo of the Christian + Middle Eastern etc. religions, never wavering.. I don't really see God as a Christian in Middle Eastern guise. He encompasses things like sexuality. Middle Eastern, like Jewish, is both a "race" (ethnicity) and a religion.

It's a pretty controversial topic. It almost sounds like a good mark to create a private group, such as through Delphi chat & forums or *********, which is like vBulletin. I'm afraid to get banned if I typed a lot about it.


If God in the Catholic religion is through the Jews, it's hard to imagine Heaven as white, which, no, I did not intend for that to be funny/a joke. I assume the world was like Greece and Rome prior to the lengthy legend of Camelot? (Because of the literature I did in honors in college, I read a lot of legends.) Are Jews outcasts of the white population? Who are the Chinese and Asians? I heard that the Japanese are Russian and the Chinese are 92% African, and about a family who migrated to a country (not Russia) from China who now have blue eyes and light hair, though I am not sure I believe it in that way.

Originally posted by demon-lllama
I like this topic.

Yes, most people think God is this combo of the Christian + Middle Eastern etc. religions, never wavering.. I don't really see God as a Christian in Middle Eastern guise. He encompasses things like sexuality. Middle Eastern, like Jewish, is both a "race" (ethnicity) and a religion.

It's a pretty controversial topic. It almost sounds like a good mark to create a private group, such as through Delphi chat & forums or *********, which is like vBulletin. I'm afraid to get banned if I typed a lot about it.


If God in the Catholic religion is through the Jews, it's hard to imagine Heaven as white, which, no, I did not intend for that to be funny/a joke. I assume the world was like Greece and Rome prior to the lengthy legend of Camelot? (Because of the literature I did in honors in college, I read a lot of legends.) Are Jews outcasts of the white population? Who are the Chinese and Asians? I heard that the Japanese are Russian and the Chinese are 92% African, and about a family who migrated to a country (not Russia) from China who now have blue eyes and light hair, though I am not sure I believe it in that way.

i have no idea wtf you just said, but you can drop the scared. there are no mods on the religion forum, just for that reason. the controversiatility of religion is what makes it such a great topic. long as you dont start a gigantic flame war, you can talk about pretty much anything. just dont shit talk people or bash. otherwise your good

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I wasnt asking you, I was asking Mr. "perfect means he is everything good and everything bad"... "perfect" means just that. complete in every way, lacking nothing, no capability, in any respect.

hope that clears that up gav

Originally posted by ushomefree
True.



What contradictions? Please elaborate to substantiate your post.


Being good (holy) refers to the nature of Almighty God. God is incapable of evil (sin), much like you are incapable of breathing water. God is pure; on the other hand, Satan -- the master deceiver -- is the polar opposite of Almighty God. God is incapable of lying. oh ill give you some contradictions. my FAVORITE biblical story, the good old story of job. god can do no evil, yet he can kill a mans entire family, take away all of his possessions and make him suffer and feel absolutely no remorse, solely for the advancement of his position in the eyes of SATAN!

so no, never tell me he can do no evil, when the contradiction is before your very face. your ignorance disgusts me

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I generally dislike omnipotence paradoxes (they're easy to come up with...this is just one example). The classic example is "Can god make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" I've always loved that one, reminds me of a Outer Limits show where a guy tells the Devil to get lost but he can't.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
I've always loved that one, reminds me of a Outer Limits show where a guy tells the Devil to get lost but he can't.

An excellant episode! Though I think its Twilight Zone isn't it?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
"perfect" means just that. complete in every way, lacking nothing, no capability, in any respect.

hope that clears that up gav



I don't see your definition in that list...

Originally posted by chickenlover98
oh ill give you some contradictions. my FAVORITE biblical story, the good old story of job. god can do no evil, yet he can kill a mans entire family, take away all of his possessions and make him suffer and feel absolutely no remorse, solely for the advancement of his position in the eyes of SATAN!

so no, never tell me he can do no evil, when the contradiction is before your very face. your ignorance disgusts me

In Job God allows Satan to do those evil things, he then gives Job every thing the Devil took away, and more.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
In Job God allows Satan to do those evil things, he then gives Job every thing the Devil took away, and more. how is that any different. so he tortured him by extension by allowing him to do it. it still falls to god as the source, making him a torturer.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
how is that any different. so he tortured him by extension by allowing him to do it. it still falls to god as the source, making him a torturer.

As God says to Job.

"Where were you when the foundations of the Earth were laid? Where were you when the seas were filled"

Im paraphrasing but he says something to that effect. Anyway, who are you to question God...you don't have the knowledge nor the ability.



Anyway, perfect means something cannot be improved. Being complete as you put it, does not mean you have to be both all good and all evil.

A perfect glass of water would have no impurities. Yet, by your definition it needs impurities or else it isn't perfect.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
As God says to Job.

"Where were you when the foundations of the Earth were laid? Where were you when the seas were filled"

Im paraphrasing but he says something to that effect. Anyway, who are you to question God...you don't have the knowledge nor the ability.



Anyway, perfect means something cannot be improved. Being complete as you put it, does not mean you have to be both all good and all evil.

A perfect glass of water would have no impurities. Yet, by your definition it needs impurities or else it isn't perfect. not exactly. a perfect glass of water is perfect in one definition, not all. the bible says god is perfect in EVERYWAY, lacking nothing, therefore good AND evil

Originally posted by chickenlover98
not exactly. a perfect glass of water is perfect in one definition, not all. the bible says god is perfect in EVERYWAY, lacking nothing, therefore good AND evil

Where does it say that?

At my old church where I did organ, the argument before I left was that you cannot depend on your parents (older people) to be perfect and that that dependence should only be busy with God. Things, at least for me I know, have changed a lot since that time. It's like the Kids' Pack at the movie theater, everything in one for me on this earth. It's like making your guy into the pharaoh.

Imagine if I actually had friends where my life would be. I feel I am too forward, as though I have nothing to draw from, if you will.

Originally posted by demon-lllama
At my old church where I did organ, the argument before I left was that you cannot depend on your parents (older people) to be perfect and that that dependence should only be busy with God. Things, at least for me I know, have changed a lot since that time. It's like the Kids' Pack at the movie theater, everything in one for me on this earth. It's like making your guy into the pharaoh.

Imagine if I actually had friends where my life would be. I feel I am too forward, as though I have nothing to draw from, if you will.

Heretic.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
how is that any different. so he tortured him by extension by allowing him to do it. it still falls to god as the source, making him a torturer.

It's the old "why do bad things happen to good people" problem. I recommend CS Lewis' "The Problem of Pain," a whole book that attempts to answer this question.

"Love may forgive all infirmities and love still in spite of them: but Love cannot cease to will their removal."

Job did suffer and it's truly horrible that he lost everything, but Satan made an accusation that people only love God when everything is going well. God said this wasn't true and provided an example with Job, but if you actually read the story, God is still looking after him because he limits what Satan can do to him, and yet Job continues to pray and be faithful. It's supposed to provide an example to people that God doesn't abandon people when things go wrong. Evil is in the world because humans have free will and God is not going to get rid of that free will.

C.S Lewis and Tolkien were very close friends and would critique each others work, if I remember right. They mixed fantasy, mythology with belief, at least Lewis did. Tolkein took his experiences from WWI experiencing the horrors he saw during that time and put it into his series "The Lord of the Rings."

You have to wonder if Lewis was a true believer since he was quoted: page 276 of C.S. Lewis: A Biography, by Roger Lancelyn Green. Lewis stated, "I had some ado to prevent Joy and myself from relapsing into Paganism in Attica! At Daphni it was hard not to pray to Apollo the Healer. But somehow one didn't feel it would have been very wrong - would have only been addressing Christ sub specie Apollinis."

Though I believe a much better book on the stuggles of life, faith and overcoming would be Hinds' Feet on High Places, by Hannah Hurnard. It's an allegory, but pretty good if you take out of it want you want and leave the other things behind. The story of Job goes along the same lines. It's not literal.

Yet I do believe in the importance of love for all things, people and circumstances.

Job is a story of not losing faith in the righteousness of goodness. Yet it is said he was being tempted by god and there was some conversation between god and Satan that WAS allowed into Heaven the place where there is NO evil. This contradicts scripture.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
You have to wonder if Lewis was a true believer since he was quoted: page 276 of C.S. Lewis: A Biography, by Roger Lancelyn Green. Lewis stated, "I had some ado to prevent Joy and myself from relapsing into Paganism in Attica! At Daphni it was hard not to pray to Apollo the Healer. But somehow one didn't feel it would have been very wrong - would have only been addressing Christ sub specie Apollinis."

Lewis was originally an atheist. Supposedly Tolkien presented some merits of Christianity to him.

And it showed in some of his writings. Still it doesn't mean anything one way or another. Good reading material btw, at least the few I have read. I like Lewis' works. Mere Christianity was pretty good, oh and The Great Divorce.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
It's the old "why do bad things happen to good people" problem. I recommend CS Lewis' "The Problem of Pain," a whole book that attempts to answer this question.

"Love may forgive all infirmities and love still in spite of them: but Love cannot cease to will their removal."

Job did suffer and it's truly horrible that he lost everything, but Satan made an accusation that people only love God when everything is going well. God said this wasn't true and provided an example with Job, but if you actually read the story, God is still looking after him because he limits what Satan can do to him, and yet Job continues to pray and be faithful. It's supposed to provide an example to people that God doesn't abandon people when things go wrong. Evil is in the world because humans have free will and God is not going to get rid of that free will. you completely refuse to take meaning from a story, unless you twist it to suite you. the fact that god allowed satan to harm him in the first place to PROVE HIS POWER!!!!!!! proves how uncaring he is. thats like saying, im going to rip the wings off of a bird, ut not electrocute it.

he still committed a so called "sin" completely willingly, unless your saying satan has control over god. He approved the use of basically torture, in order to prove a point.

I did take a meaning from the story. It's a little presumptuous for you to accuse someone of twisting the meaning of a story to fit their beliefs since everyone does that, including you. Every interpretation of a story is going to have some sort of bias. You have stated multiple times you disapprove of and have a low tolerance for all Christians (yep, all 2.1 billion in the world just don't sit well with you, how open-minded and accepting), so when you read a story from the Bible, of course you're going to interpret it as negative. I think you should open the Bible, read it cover to cover, take the story of Job into context, and then form an educated opinion, taking into consideration the historical, poetic, allegorical principles of it.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I did take a meaning from the story. It's a little presumptuous for you to accuse someone of twisting the meaning of a story to fit their beliefs since everyone does that, including you. Every interpretation of a story is going to have some sort of bias. You have stated multiple times you disapprove of and have a low tolerance for all Christians (yep, all 2.1 billion in the world just don't sit well with you, how open-minded and accepting), so when you read a story from the Bible, of course you're going to interpret it as negative. I think you should open the Bible, read it cover to cover, take the story of Job into context, and then form an educated opinion, taking into consideration the historical, poetic, allegorical principles of it. dont speak of tolerance. you dont have the right. because its oh so clear that you hate and disapprove of atheism as a whole, and hate/dislike individuals who follow that path. when you have an atheist as a best friend or even better have an atheist boyfriend get back to me.

one of my best friends is christian(also a moron). he even comes on this forum to embarrass himself(im looking at you transfinitum )

so dont preach tolerance, when yu cant even follow your half assed ideals

I'd like to know what makes you think I don't have any atheistic friends/acquaintances. Jump to conclusions much? Just because I don't like you doesn't mean I dislike all atheists.

I'm not married to an atheist, but I'd like to know how you know the religious affiliations of the people I dated before I met him.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
dont speak of tolerance. you dont have the right. because its oh so clear that you hate and disapprove of atheism as a whole, and hate/dislike individuals who follow that path. when you have an atheist as a best friend or even better have an atheist boyfriend get back to me.

one of my best friends is christian(also a moron). he even comes on this forum to embarrass himself(im looking at you transfinitum )

so dont preach tolerance, when yu cant even follow your half assed ideals

Umm, not to jump into this lover's tiff...but I think your conclusions there are wrong and actually libelous.

I don't know if you understand how hypocritical that little rant for WilloftheWisp not to be prejudicial was...

Ouch, lovers tiff. You set me straight, Grand Moff. Let's get back on track on discussing what perfection means.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Ouch, lovers tiff. You set me straight, Grand Moff. Let's get back on track on discussing what perfection means.

Perfection is not real.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
dont speak of tolerance. you dont have the right. because its oh so clear that you hate and disapprove of atheism as a whole, and hate/dislike individuals who follow that path. when you have an atheist as a best friend or even better have an atheist boyfriend get back to me.

one of my best friends is christian(also a moron). he even comes on this forum to embarrass himself(im looking at you transfinitum )

so dont preach tolerance, when yu cant even follow your half assed ideals

You're so stupid it's almost ceased to be funny.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Perfection is not real.

Amen to that (figuratively speaking of course).

Originally posted by chickenlover98
dont speak of tolerance. you dont have the right. because its oh so clear that you hate and disapprove of atheism as a whole, and hate/dislike individuals who follow that path. when you have an atheist as a best friend or even better have an atheist boyfriend get back to me.

one of my best friends is christian(also a moron). he even comes on this forum to embarrass himself(im looking at you transfinitum )

so dont preach tolerance, when yu cant even follow your half assed ideals im gonna go ahead and apologize, i got pissed at something and went off. i of course, assumed things, and im sorry. i sound like an idiot.

Takes a big man to admit to that. That's integrity and that's a big thing not found much today.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Perfection is not real.

I agree.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Takes a big man to admit to that. That's integrity and that's a big thing not found much today.



I agree. i dont think it can be

What, that perfection is not real?

Originally posted by Deja~vu
What, that perfection is not real? ya i dont think it can be real

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in the Christian religion, god is perfect in everyway and all powerful. we know this isnt true because of the hundreds of contradictions but lets take it as fact.

if god is perfect in EVERYWAY then he must be the perfect good AND the perfect evil. if he is not, then he is not truly perfect, because he is lacking. similarly, if god is perfect he must never lie, and be the best liar ever. we come to a paradox here, because he can never do wrong, yet is the perfect wrongdoer.

It's funny how non-believers say that all of Gods miracles are coincidences, that the easy answer is "God did it" if you don't look into them.

But wen they find some supposed "contradictions" in the book they come up with the easy answer that "God doesn't exist".

It's also amusing that around 80% of Christians have already read these "contradictions" and could find a reasonable explanation.

If God was to do wrong he'd do it better than anyyone, so yes he is the perfect wrong doer. But the amazing thing is that he loves mankind so much that he doesn't do wrong (even though he's perfect at doing wrong).

Originally posted by chickenlover98
ya i dont think it can be real I agree.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
im gonna go ahead and apologize, i got pissed at something and went off. i of course, assumed things, and im sorry. i sound like an idiot.

I know how hard it can be to apologize and how easy it is to make assumptions, so no hard feelings there.

Perfection can be real, just not within the confines of humanity. We've proven over and over again we are an imperfect species, but that doesn't mean perfection can't exist anywhere.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I know how hard it can be to apologize and how easy it is to make assumptions, so no hard feelings there.

Perfection can be real, just not within the confines of humanity. We've proven over and over again we are an imperfect species, but that doesn't mean perfection can't exist anywhere.
ty

i disagree, but then again its all based on the definition of perfect

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
It's funny how non-believers say that all of Gods miracles are coincidences, that the easy answer is "God did it" if you don't look into them.

But wen they find some supposed "contradictions" in the book they come up with the easy answer that "God doesn't exist".

It's also amusing that around 80% of Christians have already read these "contradictions" and could find a reasonable explanation.

If God was to do wrong he'd do it better than anyyone, so yes he is the perfect wrong doer. But the amazing thing is that he loves mankind so much that he doesn't do wrong (even though he's perfect at doing wrong). a half adequate response. at least you've got teh balls to admit that he could be the perfect wrongdoer.

i also find it amusing how much faith you put in humanity. people really arent that smart as a whole

Originally posted by chickenlover98
i also find it amusing how much faith you put in humanity. people really arent that smart as a whole

You'd think her faith would be daunted...after her discussion with you...

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
You'd think her faith would be daunted...after her discussion with you... low

Originally posted by willofthewisp

Perfection can be real, just not within the confines of humanity. We've proven over and over again we are an imperfect species, but that doesn't mean perfection can't exist anywhere. Maybe if you're looking at it from an organized chaos view.

Well, in the interest of literature, he was at one time quite a hero - fighting for democracy in heaven and all that.

But yeah, if God exists, I want nothing to do with him.

It's not literature, it's a field of science or theory.

Could there be perfection in imperfection? Could there be organized in the unorganized?

Oh and god is only a name for a working system that people don't understand, let alone myself.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Well, in the interest of literature, he was at one time quite a hero - fighting for democracy in heaven and all that.

But yeah, if God exists, I want nothing to do with him.

Ok.

Again if god is perfect, then so is this Satan since all is part of god himself. There is no place that god is NOT. There is no place that god is not part of. So, god is in Satan. In this view of scripture, you could say that god is also Satan.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Again if god is perfect, then so is this Satan since all is part of god himself. There is no place that god is NOT. There is no place that god is not part of. So, god is in Satan. In this view of scripture, you could say that god is also Satan. thats my point, yet most if not all christians deny it.

We are being tormented by the one who loves us.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
thats my point, yet most if not all christians deny it.

No they just disagree with you quite validly.

No.
Satan is NOT perfect = Satan is NOT God

God is perfect (as the story says)

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
No.
Satan is NOT perfect = Satan is NOT God

God is perfect (as the story says)

But if they are both fictional, then it all depends on who you ask.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But if they are both fictional, then it all depends on who you ask.

That's a pretty big "if" in there.

The way I've always seen it, God is in everything, but that doesn't mean he chooses to control everything. Free will exists. We have free will and so does Satan. Satan is not God's equal. God already defeated him and Satan is technically powerless, but that doesn't mean he doesn't try.

I don't know much about the ancient Zoroaster religion that believed in an absolute good and absolute evil, but it was kind of the first belief system that acknowledged a supernatural being that chose to do evil. But correct me if I'm wrong, the people that followed that religion believed that both good and evil existed from the beginning and were always in conflict with each other without one ever winning for the long-term. In Christianity, Satan opposed God and was cast out of Heaven with God saying in Genesis that he would send a Savior that would crush Satan's head. That happened, so Satan is not perfect evil, and no evil can match God's goodness. That's what I believe anyway.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I don't know much about the ancient Zoroaster religion that believed in an absolute good and absolute evil, but it was kind of the first belief system that acknowledged a supernatural being that chose to do evil.

Just about every faith throughout history has had a supernatural being that chooses to do evil.

But wasn't that one of the first? I don't recall the Sumerian belief system for example having a "Satan" figure.

My point was just that something that sets Christianity apart from some of the ancient religions and even some modern ones is that evil is already technically defeated in Christianity.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
That's a pretty big "if" in there.

The way I've always seen it, God is in everything, but that doesn't mean he chooses to control everything. Free will exists. We have free will and so does Satan. Satan is not God's equal. God already defeated him and Satan is technically powerless, but that doesn't mean he doesn't try.

I don't know much about the ancient Zoroaster religion that believed in an absolute good and absolute evil, but it was kind of the first belief system that acknowledged a supernatural being that chose to do evil. But correct me if I'm wrong, the people that followed that religion believed that both good and evil existed from the beginning and were always in conflict with each other without one ever winning for the long-term. In Christianity, Satan opposed God and was cast out of Heaven with God saying in Genesis that he would send a Savior that would crush Satan's head. That happened, so Satan is not perfect evil, and no evil can match God's goodness. That's what I believe anyway.

A big if? Well, I can narrow it do a little for you; any god that is a "he" is a man made god. Also, satan is a mythological being and is also man made.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A big if? Well, I can narrow it do a little for you; any god that is a "he" is a man made god. Also, satan is a mythological being and is also man made.

Sure, if you're right.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Sure, if you're right.

And if I am?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And if I am?

Then nothing happens. If you're right.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Then nothing happens. If you're right.

Not true. If I am right, then some people are wasting their lives.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not true. If I am right, then some people are wasting their lives.

If you're right those people are still making a choice. The idea that you somehow have the right to dictate what they should believe is sick. I realize that blind intolerance is an integral part of Buddhism but you should realize that it's wrong.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If you're right those people are still making a choice. The idea that you somehow have the right to dictate what they should believe is sick. I realize that blind intolerance is an integral part of Buddhism but you should realize that it's wrong.

Wow! you need to learn something about Buddhism. Now I don't know about all types of Buddhist, but blind intolerance has nothing to do with the type of Buddhist I am.

A person can choose to jump into a raging river. Should I not tell them they the river is dangerous?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Wow! you need to learn something about Buddhism. Now I don't know about all types of Buddhist, but blind intolerance has nothing to do with the type of Buddhist I am.

You show that quite rarely. I prefer to judge by a person's actions rather than by what their faith simply says.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A person can choose to jump into a raging river. Should I not tell them they the river is dangerous?

If I make a man of straw and knock it over can I say that I have defeated a man with one punch?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You show that quite rarely. I prefer to judge by a person's actions rather than by what their faith simply says.



If I make a man of straw and knock it over can I say that I have defeated a man with one punch?

I show what quite rarely?

I don't know what "man of straw" is all about.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I show what quite rarely?

Tolerance.

You've expressed the belief that all Christians are evil. You've made it clear you don't think it's possible to be a "real" Christian and not become JIA. You openly mock other systems of belief when they differ from yours rather than present an actual argument or admit that people have the right to believe what they wish even if you disagree. You take the opportunity to make jabs at people of other faiths even when unprovoked.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't know what "man of straw" is all about.

Strawman is a type of logical fallacy that you were using, probably unintentionally.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Tolerance.

You've expressed the belief that all Christians are evil. You've made it clear you don't think it's possible to be a "real" Christian and not become JIA. You openly mock other systems of belief when they differ from yours rather than present an actual argument or admit that people have the right to believe what they wish even if you disagree. You take the opportunity to make jabs at people of other faiths even when unprovoked.



I think you need to get something out of your butt. BTW this is a debate forum, and if you can't take the debate, maybe you should go for a walk.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
strawman is a type of logical fallacy that you were using, probably unintentionally.

I know what a straw-man is, but it had nothing to do with what I was talking about.

If the people who state there is no God are right, and again, that's a pretty big if, then for those who have believed, no harm, no foul. I don't consider it a waste. Christianity promises something far better and lovelier than a lot of alternatives do and if I was wrong to believe it, at least I led a happy life trying to do greater things than Nature intended for me.

It does get a little tiresome to hear nothing but the "this thread's topic is pointless because there is no God" statement coming back again and again. If you believe that, you have all the freedom to believe it, but it does not contribute to the topic at hand in the slightest.

It's very easy to get offended and offend other people on a board since all you have is typed words and not body language or tone.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
If the people who state there is no God are right, and again, that's a pretty big if, then for those who have believed, no harm, no foul. I don't consider it a waste. Christianity promises something far better and lovelier than a lot of alternatives do and if I was wrong to believe it, at least I led a happy life trying to do greater things than Nature intended for me.

It does get a little tiresome to hear nothing but the "this thread's topic is pointless because there is no God" statement coming back again and again. If you believe that, you have all the freedom to believe it, but it does not contribute to the topic at hand in the slightest.

It's very easy to get offended and offend other people on a board since all you have is typed words and not body language or tone.

The "if" I was talking about was not an atheistic point of view. I was saying, what if your god is not real? I am not an atheist, I simply believe that the god of the bible is no different then the Greek gods of mythology, man made.

I don't understand what you mean then. The question of whether or not something is real depends on whether or not someone fabricated it. If you believe the Greek gods for example were man-made, then you believe they were never real. Please explain.

Are you saying something like "what if the Christian God is not real but the Hindu gods are real?"

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I don't understand what you mean then. The question of whether or not something is real depends on whether or not someone fabricated it. If you believe the Greek gods for example were man-made, then you believe they were never real. Please explain.

Are you saying something like "what if the Christian God is not real but the Hindu gods are real?"

OK, I believe that the true nature of God cannot be understood by humans. Therefore, all attempts at understanding God are wrong. All gods, religions and holy books are made by humans based on a lack of understanding. We are all equal...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison


I think you need to get something out of your butt. BTW this is a debate forum, and if you can't take the debate, maybe you should go for a walk.

Debate requires thought or, you know, debate. Simple insults and intentional attacks are not debate. JIA at least tries you seem to have few if any real arguments.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I know what a straw-man is, but it had nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Actually your attempt to refute my statement was a perfect example of a strawman argument. Nice try at dodging though.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
OK, I believe that the true nature of God cannot be understood by humans. Therefore, all attempts at understanding God are wrong. All gods, religions and holy books are made by humans based on a lack of understanding. We are all equal...

Then why debate? You already know that your own concept of God's existence or non-existence is wrong as well.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Debate requires thought or, you know, debate. Simple insults and intentional attacks are not debate. JIA at least tries you seem to have few if any real arguments.



Actually your attempt to refute my statement was a perfect example of a strawman argument. Nice try at dodging though.

I have not insulted or attacked anyone. You are way off, and just trying to bait me. Fail.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Then why debate? You already know that your own concept of God's existence or non-existence is wrong as well.

I was answer a question. Stop trolling me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I was answer a question. Stop trolling me.



This is a debate forum. Maybe you need to go take a walk.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
OK, I believe that the true nature of God cannot be understood by humans. Therefore, all attempts at understanding God are wrong. All gods, religions and holy books are made by humans based on a lack of understanding. We are all equal...

Okay, I can understand that. But wouldn't that imply God does not WANT to be understood? The implications of what you said seem to be that God is so far removed from anything we are doing that he/she/it acts more as a passive observer and really couldn't care less about all our petty goings-on. But if God wanted to be part of people's lives and reveal him/her/itself to us, wouldn't that give us some insight? Part of what sets Christianity apart from other belief systems for me is how much of an effort God makes to be close to us.

It seems that just because the God/human relationship is so difficult doesn't mean human beings shouldn't naturally be curious about the supernatural, or even be enlightened by God every now and then.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Okay, I can understand that. But wouldn't that imply God does not WANT to be understood? The implications of what you said seem to be that God is so far removed from anything we are doing that he/she/it acts more as a passive observer and really couldn't care less about all our petty goings-on. But if God wanted to be part of people's lives and reveal him/her/itself to us, wouldn't that give us some insight? Part of what sets Christianity apart from other belief systems for me is how much of an effort God makes to be close to us.

It seems that just because the God/human relationship is so difficult doesn't mean human beings shouldn't naturally be curious about the supernatural, or even be enlightened by God every now and then.

However, what I said does not imply that God wants or does not want anything at all. The implication of what I said does not mean that God is far removed. You are projecting your own beliefs onto what I said.

God cannot be understood by humans does not imply anything that can be understood by humans. All religions are equally right and equally wrong.