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I have a ton of yoda fights-- i'm kinda in a fanboy mode right now.

Yoda vs. Traya b/c nhillus is so ambiguous.
Saber is probably not too important, so lets make this a force only battle.


If this one is too straightforward, hows about NJO Jacen, right after his defeat of the Vong who makes poison (the 'power behind the throne' guy-- can't remember his name) vs. yoda

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=475975&highlight=prune+forumid%3A86

i'm not allowed to edit the post/title- so if we have any mods it can be closed/renamed to yoda vs. NJO Jacen

Originally posted by Jbill311
i'm not allowed to edit the post/title- so if we have any mods it can be closed/renamed to yoda vs. NJO Jacen

The consensus from what I have seen is that LOTF Jace aka Darth Caedus is on the same tier as Yoda but loses to him. I doubt a less powerful version of Caedus can win this.

Traya loses too.

Is Traya using more than one Lightsaber?

Its only a force fight.

Which Traya wins thanks to her mad sucking (with the force, not the other thing)/draining skills.

What makes you think Yoda will not be able to resist Traya's drain, if she uses it? There is not a huge amount evidence that Traya is great with the force. Draining the trio of jedi was not amazing, there is nothing to show that these jedi were powerful. Throughout KOTOR 2 the jedi of the time are implied to be weak. Floating lightsabers are useful in lightsaber combat, but telekinesis is hardly an advanced force technique. Killing the sith assassins was nice, but assassins are nothing compared to Yoda.
Yoda on the other hand has plenty of evidence to show how powerful he is in the force. Stopping everything Dooku throws at him, using the force to avoid being hit by the lightsabers of Billaba, Koon, and Tiin, and his force usage in the battle with Sidious are a few examples. This is pretty straightforward.
As for yoda vs Jacen, it all depends. If this is Jacen right after the battle with Onimi, I am inclined to believe he would still be in the pure lightside power state. In that case he would be able to beat Yoda. If this was even an hour before/after the fight with Onimi however, Yoda would win.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
What makes you think Yoda will not be able to resist Traya's drain, if she uses it? There is not a huge amount evidence that Traya is great with the force. Draining the trio of jedi was not amazing, there is nothing to show that these jedi were powerful. Throughout KOTOR 2 the jedi of the time are implied to be weak. Floating lightsabers are useful in lightsaber combat, but telekinesis is hardly an advanced force technique. Killing the sith assassins was nice, but assassins are nothing compared to Yoda.
Yoda on the other hand has plenty of evidence to show how powerful he is in the force. Stopping everything Dooku throws at him, using the force to avoid being hit by the lightsabers of Billaba, Koon, and Tiin, and his force usage in the battle with Sidious are a few examples. This is pretty straightforward.
As for yoda vs Jacen, it all depends. If this is Jacen right after the battle with Onimi, I am inclined to believe he would still be in the pure lightside power state. In that case he would be able to beat Yoda. If this was even an hour before/after the fight with Onimi however, Yoda would win.

QFT

I'm just gonna be a b*tch and say, if Yoda lasted as long as he did against teh greates Sith EVA! Then Traya should be overcomeable for him.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The consensus from what I have seen is that LOTF Jace aka Darth Caedus is on the same tier as Yoda but loses to him. I doubt a less powerful version of Caedus can win this.

Consensus doesn't make it so Elite Hunter. While Yoda has the edge in various force powers and broad force knowledge, Jacen apparently has greater raw force abilities (stupid LOTF authors). Despite my disgust with how his fight with Luke went, he apparently is very capable of defeating Yoda. I'm not saying that he would, but it's not as clear cut as you think.

Let me quote you his "run in" with Luke. I'm not sure everyone here has read it, and making allusions to it doesn't do it justice. Caedus was OWNED by luke. After becoming a sith, so that is his most powerful incarnation. He was NOWHERE near Luke's level. Read on:

" Caedus was glad to see Luke's lightsaber still hanging from its belt clip, but he took the precaution of slipping toward his desk, where he would have access to a dozen weapons and traps he had prepared in anticipation of just such a confrontation.
Luke jabbed a finger in Caedus's direction. "Now i understand why you've been avoiding me." His tone was even and soft, tbut there was no mistaking th ewrath in his Force aura. "And this time, you've finally crossed the line."
........ "In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across teh cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in teh Force, and hurled him five meters into his char.
"Don't lie, " Luke started across the cabin. "I'm getting tired of it."
Caedus sprang out of the chair...or attempted to. Instead, he found himself strggling against an invisible weight He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.
"Luke, youve' gone mad." Cauedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair, and discovered he couldn't even do that much. "You can't do this. I know you're having trouble dealing with Mara's death, but--"
....Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker's much strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the Force, just enough to seem properly alarmed.
...... Caedus would have shaken his head, save that it was still being held motionless with the Force
..... Then I'll take it for what it's worth, " Luke said. Leaving Caedus Force-pinned in his chair, he started toward the door. "I'll show myself out."
Caedus knew he would be freed as soon as Luke turned his concentration to something other than Force-pinning him--but that might take minutes, and Caedus needed to send in the Home Fleet now... he could not allow anyone, even Luke Skywalker, to humiliate him, and simply leave.
..... ""what?" Caedus was so shocked that he tried to rise--and found himself as unable to move as before. "You can't desert now. We can end this war!"
......
The door opened. Instead of stepping through, Luke faced Caedus and spoke in a very calm voice. "I'm sure you're not threatening the younglings."
He pointed at the base of Jacen's meditation chair and made a tapping motion with his finger. The pedestal gave a loud whumpf, and the seat dropped a quarter meter.
"Because you really don't want to see me angry." Luke made the tapping motion again. The pedesteal emitted a metallic shrek, and the seat dropped another quarter meter. "and i think you're smart enough to know that."
Luke tapped a last time, and the pedestal collapsed with a low loud crump, despositing Caedus on teh floor with his feet sticking out in front of him like a child.
"But if you want to try me, go ahead and make that threat."

Luke lowered his hand, and the weight vanished from Caedus's chest. He could have leapt up to attack--had he been that foolish--but Sith were not slaves to their emotions.


Okay, the ..... were dialogues i skipped. But Jacen is held motionless through something like 5 pages of dialogue. HOw can it even be argued that he can come ANYWHERE close to luke? You can't fight very well if you can't move.

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
What makes you think Yoda will not be able to resist Traya's drain, if she uses it?

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."

I'm assuming that her version of drain is the same as described.

She's a fallible third party character.. saying that is as credible as random idiot DBZ villain yelling "I am unstoppable!".

the reborn masters in Jedi academy say that too!

Originally posted by ThoraxeRMG
"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."

I'm assuming that her version of drain is the same as described.

what evidence do you have to assume that?

Originally posted by truejedi
what evidence do you have to assume that?

Her quote.

why do you think the drain is included in those force techniques? there is no evidence to make that assumption.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
She's a fallible third party character.. saying that is as credible as random idiot DBZ villain yelling "I am unstoppable!".

Haven't you learned anything? Third party/person fallibility only applies to sources such as The New Essential Chronology, which was only drafted by the historical council of a galactic superpower with unlimited resources and startlingly insightful knowledge regarding events that no one could possibly know of . Clearly that person isn't qualified. On the other hand, Traya is a Sith -- true -- but an honest Sith. And a historian. Which means when she says shit like "there are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense" or "Ancient Sith makez all our peepz look like bitches!" she is clearly being one hundred percent objective and is uniquely qualified to make such a claim.

I think that the argument boils down to one thing, and that thing is the 'innocent untill proven guilty' thing. Yoda might be able to block the attack, but untill it's actually proven that he could we have to assume that he can't. Otherwise we just have people saying wether they believe he could without proof, essentually a pointless excercise.

On the other hand, Traya has already demonstrated the lethality of the technique by using it to kill 3 jedi masters who at the least would have been expecting her to attack them (she was a Sith after all) and at the most just got their defences raped.

Anyway, thats my argument.

just to throw this out there Traya said in 3951 BBY that there are force techniques with which there is no defense or whatever but it's possible that by 19 BBY nearly 4000 years later that "the most devastating foe the darkside has ever seen" or any other Jedi master in that 4000 year time span could have discovered a way to defend against some if not all of those attacks?

just throwing that out there

Think about this: in JA, and i think in KOTOR itself, there are defensive measures for defending against force drain. (especially in JA) In fact, any jedi or sith has those measures to defend themselves in that game, So if Jaden Korr can defend himself from force drain, doesn't it make sense that Yoda could?
Mebbe has something to do with that 4000 year gap, maybe its common sense for Force Users now. But it IS defendable. mabye the masters from KOTOR just didn't know how.

Originally posted by truejedi
Think about this: in JA, and i think in KOTOR itself, there are defensive measures for defending against force drain. (especially in JA) In fact, any jedi or sith has those measures to defend themselves in that game, So if Jaden Korr can defend himself from force drain, doesn't it make sense that Yoda could?
Mebbe has something to do with that 4000 year gap, maybe its common sense for Force Users now. But it IS defendable. mabye the masters from KOTOR just didn't know how. Defense against Force Drain in JA was a game mechanic so Drain didn't become overpowered.

She doesn't DRAIN them, she severs them from the Force and their inability to persist without it is their death.

What about this is so difficult? I've said it constantly

Originally posted by Lightsnake
She doesn't DRAIN them, she severs them from the Force and their inability to persist without it is their death.

What about this is so difficult? I've said it constantly A few more times'll suffice I think.

Good point, thanks.



Possible, not provable.

Actually, considering that Tholme can sever and reconnect from the Force, as other Jedi of the order can, Traya's attack loses a bit of its kick.

KOTOR 2's 'JEDI SUCK WITHOUT TEH FORCE!' nonsense is just...absurd

Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
Defense against Force Drain in JA was a game mechanic so Drain didn't become overpowered.

that would make force drain itself a game mechanic in KOTOR. (follow the logic.) if what we call force drain in JA is not real (because if absorb is fake, then so is drain, you can't have that both ways in JA) then we have no idea what Traya is doing to the Jedi in KOTOR. It could quite easily be orange lightning. We assume its drain because we have seen drain... where? Jedi Academy, and it had a name there. Or, because we have a similar looking attack that we can acquire on KOTOR, but ONLY as a game-play mechanic, which you have chosen to dismiss as evidence. So throwing out ALL game-play mechanics, what do you call the attack Traya uses on the jedi?

Nice try Lightsnake with the "seperation from the force" theory, but where are you getting your substantiation for that one?

i'm bringing this back up, b/c i wonder if anyone agrees with my last post there. How do we know that Traya used any sort of force drain on the Jedi Masters? we assume because OUR force drain in the game is a similar looking attack. However, that force drain is a GAMEPLAY MECHANIC. So if you throw out the gameplay mechanics, what makes us think it was drain that she used on them? is there any other source confirming it?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, considering that Tholme can sever and reconnect from the Force, as other Jedi of the order can, Traya's attack loses a bit of its kick.

KOTOR 2's 'JEDI SUCK WITHOUT TEH FORCE!' nonsense is just...absurd Do most PT jedi know this technique though? And i don't see how she can sever a stronger force user off the force as easily as she did to three nobodies.

Another falacy on your part. They were not "nobodies".

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Another falacy on your part. They were not "nobodies". O rly? Tell me what was so special about zez kai ell then? We know absolutely nothing about him, no feats no statements and no demonstration of combat prowess. I called him(or them) nobodies because they have not actually demonstarted anything impressive combat wise nor shown remarkable strength in the force.

So much for "not wanting to waste your time" huh?

Originally posted by truejedi
So throwing out ALL game-play mechanics, what do you call the attack Traya uses on the jedi?Exactly what LS said it is.
It's not a theory, it's canon fact. That's exactly how she describes it in the game. Hell, that's one of the main themes of the game: people getting cut off from the Force. It happens to the Exile , it happens to Traya at the hands of Nihilus, and it happens to the three Jedi Masters when they try to execute the Exile. She wants them to see the world through the Exile's eyes, so she severs their connection to the Force.

Really, play the game before tossing out arguments like this.

They were hardly nobodies, but the fact remains this is a weakness not shared by later orders...KOTOR 2 took the idea that Jedi are SO dependent on the Force once they're severed from it, they die...when the Order was rebuilt, this was obviously taken care off.

Originally posted by Faunus
Exactly what LS said it is.
It's not a theory, it's canon fact. That's exactly how she describes it in the game. Hell, that's one of the main themes of the game: people getting cut off from the Force. It happens to the Exile , it happens to Traya at the hands of Nihilus, and it happens to the three Jedi Masters when they try to execute the Exile. She wants them to see the world through the Exile's eyes, so she severs their connection to the Force.

Really, play the game before tossing out arguments like this.

i have played the game more than once. They don't try to execute the exile. If they attack you, you kill them, if you submit to the punishement, they try to cut you off from the force. I believe that darkside is canon for the exile? am i right? if i am, then Traya never attacks the masters in the first place. If its light side ending that is canon, then n/m. I thought it was lightside for KOTOR , and darkside for KOTOR 2 though.

People make claims of traya's "drain" skill all throughout this forum. Don't mind me for attacking that one. I didn't realize it was a quote Lightsnake, that's why i was asking for substantiation.

Faunus, interesting you accuse me of not playing the game for one detailed quote i didn't remember, and in the next breath you reference an "execution" that never took place in the scenario in which Traya attacks the masters.

One more question on it though: and this was kinda my point. Where do we get the idea that force drain is real, if force absorb, or force protect, or w/e isn't real. Its a genuine question. What other sources do we have for force drain other than games in which they are optional such as JA, or the KOTORS. The source should have the words "force drain" otherwise we can't prove one actually exists.

Light side is the canonical path for both KOTOR games, actually. Kreia performs what is considered an elevated and distorted version of "Force Drain". This allowed her to sever the force connections of the Jedi while simultaneously exhausting them, causing all three Jedi Masters to perish instantly.

but how do we know to call it force drain? the only proof we have of that comes from the game, when you are selecting attacks, all of those are gameplay mechanics, and can't be considered canon. I don't know of one quote from any novelization that references a
"force drain"

Does anyone else know such a reference?