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Everyone knows "The Ultimate Price" is usually used in reference to giving your life but I was wondering is that really the ultimate price?

See I've been doing allot of thinking of allot of my favorite heroes form both comics, television and other media and it seems to me that there are far higher prices than death. Now while I'm sure we could all think of several others besides death, the one I'm mainly referring to is the willingness to allow yourself to become the villain to save the world or the ones you love and in the process perhaps even have to lose a part of your very soul. I can't really imagine a higher price than that.

One of my favorite tragic characters that I'm thinking of in particular is Cole Turner, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Turner . Now for those of you that don't know who Cole was, he was a half human half demon in the show Charmed. He'd been forced into a demonic life by his evil mother in a hell dimension during his childhood and only realised the good in his human side when meeting the Charmed sister Phoebe. He went on to try and atone for his evil past by attempting to suppress his demonic half and use his powers for good. Then he eventually had the sisters even destroy his demon side completely leaving only his human side powerless. Then however the source of all evil was going to destroy the sisters and the entire world, good and evil. Cole paid an ultimate price IMO by choosing against his wishes to become the new source of all evil to stop the old one and save his love Phoebe, her sisters and with them the whole world. This eventually cost him to lose everything because now he was the greatest evil despite himself. He even saved there lives more by continuing to fight the evil within him's own impulses to kill them. Still after they vanquished him and the evil and he returned free of that evil they refused to see what he'd done for them and he ended up paying for it with an eternity of loneliness in limbo.

Another is Ozymandias. He was willing to commit horrible acts to save the world and he himself became the monster. He killed millions to unite the world to keep it form destroying itself and killing billions.

Now I'm not really talking about people like The Punisher. Who really kill for vengeance but people who don't want to kill at all. Yet, when it comes down to it were willing to pay the price and become the villain, in one since or another. To save others or just to do what needs to be done.

Willing to become the villain or monster or lose everything and have to suffer for it is what I would think the highest price would be. Higher even than death. Because in death at least you don't have to lose part of your soul to do what is needed.

What are your thougths on this?

You mean like Tony Stark?

Meh. After you've told a few funny jokes, been with the Avengers (or X-Men) or beat Dr. Doom, you're pretty much guaranteed to come back from the dead.

So this character-morale-busting stuff is probably worse.

Originally posted by llagrok
You mean like Tony Stark? Actually Yes! Exactly like Tony, if your referring to his actions in Civil War.

I still feel what he did in Civil War was almost completely right despite his methods. I really understand what he was doing and why he had to do it all that way. Really its part of why I'm hoping that Cap was a Skrull because I think that Cap would have seen this too and realised this is what needed to be done. The good of the people should come before the heroes. I mean they weren't even asking for them to be publicly known just registered so they could be held accountable for their actions. This is a big part of why I really wish Peter had stuck with Tony on it. He finally had a chance to be realised as one of the good guys and become accepted by society.

I really just can see anything the anti registration side had that really measures up to them actually being right. If they didn't want to register they should have just quit. IMO

Neat.

that is some deep stuff i never really thought about it that way but now that you say it makes sense

While they didnt have to publicly reveal their identities, by registering that meant that someone had that info. With that info someone(shady politician, skrull etc.) could blackmail a hero into doing anything they wanted by threatening them to injure their family(which is what happened to Spidey).

IMO only the younger/newer super heroes needed training. Guys like the Avengers, F4, X-men and other veteran heroes should be left alone. Also the training of new heroes should be left to other heroes. The government should be kept out of it.

Originally posted by Darth Vicious
While they didnt have to publicly reveal their identities, by registering that meant that someone had that info. With that info someone(shady politician, skrull etc.) could blackmail a hero into doing anything they wanted by threatening them to injure their family(which is what happened to Spidey).

IMO only the younger/newer super heroes needed training. Guys like the Avengers, F4, X-men and other veteran heroes should be left alone. Also the training of new heroes should be left to other heroes. The government should be kept out of it.

Originally posted by Entity
Actually Yes! Exactly like Tony, if your referring to his actions in Civil War.

I still feel what he did in Civil War was almost completely right despite his methods. I really understand what he was doing and why he had to do it all that way. Really its part of why I'm hoping that Cap was a Skrull because I think that Cap would have seen this too and realised this is what needed to be done. The good of the people should come before the heroes. I mean they weren't even asking for them to be publicly known just registered so they could be held accountable for their actions. This is a big part of why I really wish Peter had stuck with Tony on it. He finally had a chance to be realised as one of the good guys and become accepted by society.

I really just can see anything the anti registration side had that really measures up to them actually being right. If they didn't want to register they should have just quit. IMO I didn't like the Government's involvement. I think Reed and Stark should have privatized the Registration. The fail safe would be that both Reed and Stark, and maybe a third neutral hero, could only access the info if their codes, keys or whatever were used at the same time. The Governments in comics are notorious for using meta-humans and tech for weapons and other military applications. Just my opinion though.

Why government registration is a bad idea:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scan00243nj.jpg

Originally posted by Raoul
Why government registration is a bad idea:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scan00243nj.jpg Well put, for rell.

just tryin to keep it rell...

Panels 3 and 4 says it all.

Originally posted by Entity
Actually Yes! Exactly like Tony, if your referring to his actions in Civil War.

I still feel what he did in Civil War was almost completely right despite his methods. I really understand what he was doing and why he had to do it all that way. Really its part of why I'm hoping that Cap was a Skrull because I think that Cap would have seen this too and realised this is what needed to be done. The good of the people should come before the heroes. I mean they weren't even asking for them to be publicly known just registered so they could be held accountable for their actions. This is a big part of why I really wish Peter had stuck with Tony on it. He finally had a chance to be realised as one of the good guys and become accepted by society.

I really just can see anything the anti registration side had that really measures up to them actually being right. If they didn't want to register they should have just quit. IMO

You need to read up on apartheid, and how coloured people in South Africa had little books that needed visas so the white folk would always know where the coloured folk were inside the country.

All for the good of the people, of course

But this registration isn't the same as segregation simply based on minorities because of their race or religion. It has a valid reasoning behind it. People that have and use abilities that can be extremely hazardous and need to be monitored and made to be held accountable for their actions should the need arise.

What are they suppose to do? Just let people with powers beyond normal humans and some even near godlike free to make their own laws just because they aren't as containable as the rest of us? Its not like they're being forced to register, they have the option to retire. But if they wish to continue acting as the law enforcement then they should be treated as such with the same regulations.

And I do understand what your saying about the corruption in the government. Believe me I really do but who are they suppose to put in command of it? Any group of individuals is just as corruptible as the other were this reality instead of a world with incorruptible individuals such as the comics. I'm trying to view this as if it were a real world issue and not just a comic story line where there are characters that are above us in morality to the point of complete trust. Because if any or all of those characters were real, they'd be just as able to turn it for the worse as the rest of us.

At least with Shield, its a united nations organization that the entire world is attempting to monitor and regulate. So its not as easily attainable or as individually controlled as if it were by a single or group of supposedly trusted individuals.

And lets be serious about a couple of things. Even with just real world forensics, how impossible would it be to maintain a secret identity with a public image as large as theirs? I mean just think of all the things that are done on C.S.I. to obtain peoples identities in every episode. Now imagine its a international vigilante or even just friend with powers we've always wanted and been denied. And that's just in reality, could you even imagine in the comic world with all the tech they have available?

Also are you really telling me that if these people really existed in the real world then you wouldn't want them regulated in order to have them accountable for their actions or when they cause collateral damage by their own recklessness? What if some cops just decided to blow up your house or something because they get pissed at the gang they've been having a standoff with around it to get to them? Or what if they ran a semi into your SUV and killed your family while you were in the service station paying for gas because they were in a high speed chase with drug runners? Guess as long as they were trying to do the right thing then no harm no foul? I mean its not even important to know who they were is it? Your dead family would have wanted it that way.

Anyway that's not even the point of this thread. This thread is about The Ultimate Price and what you think really is the ultimate price. I'm fine with continuing this conversation but can't we do it in a more appropriate thread?

Originally posted by Entity
But this registration isn't the same as segregation simply based on minorities because of their race or religion. It has a valid reasoning behind it. People that have and use abilities that can be extremely hazardous and need to be monitored and made to be held accountable for their actions should the need arise.

What are they suppose to do? Just let people with powers beyond normal humans and some even near godlike free to make their own laws just because they aren't as containable as the rest of us? Its not like they're being forced to register, they have the option to retire. But if they wish to continue acting as the law enforcement then they should be treated as such with the same regulations.

Thats how concentration camps would start. Even if they retired, theyll still be feared and eventually someone will bring up the bright idea to lock them all up. Denying them of their rights because they are diffrent.

Originally posted by Entity

And I do understand what your saying about the corruption in the government. Believe me I really do but who are they suppose to put in command of it? Any group of individuals is just as corruptible as the other were this reality instead of a world with incorruptible individuals such as the comics. I'm trying to view this as if it were a real world issue and not just a comic story line where there are characters that are above us in morality to the point of complete trust. Because if any or all of those characters were real, they'd be just as able to turn it for the worse as the rest of us.

At least with Shield, its a united nations organization that the entire world is attempting to monitor and regulate. So its not as easily attainable or as individually controlled as if it were by a single or group of supposedly trusted individuals.

Theres always the chance of corruption but the question is, Would u take a chance having a corrupt hero or a whole bunch of corrupt politicians. Which we all know, there are a lot out there.

As for SHIELD. While I would like an organisation like that, they still answer to politicians and we are back to square one.

I think the Green Lantern Cops are a better example. I believe they are a better law enforcement.

Originally posted by Entity

And lets be serious about a couple of things. Even with just real world forensics, how impossible would it be to maintain a secret identity with a public image as large as theirs? I mean just think of all the things that are done on C.S.I. to obtain peoples identities in every episode. Now imagine its a international vigilante or even just friend with powers we've always wanted and been denied. And that's just in reality, could you even imagine in the comic world with all the tech they have available?


Their fingerprints would have to be in the system already for thm to ge caught. Which doesnt matter anyways, most of the super people wear gloves anyways. If they wear masks it would be impossible to really tell whos under the mask. Using just glasses to conceal ur identity only works for Superman.

Originally posted by Entity

Also are you really telling me that if these people really existed in the real world then you wouldn't want them regulated in order to have them accountable for their actions or when they cause collateral damage by their own recklessness? What if some cops just decided to blow up your house or something because they get pissed at the gang they've been having a standoff with around it to get to them? Or what if they ran a semi into your SUV and killed your family while you were in the service station paying for gas because they were in a high speed chase with drug runners? Guess as long as they were trying to do the right thing then no harm no foul? I mean its not even important to know who they were is it? Your dead family would have wanted it that way.


Good point but all that happens all the time. Not exactly as u described it but it happens. Didnt 3 police officers in NY shot an unrmed guy over 50 times? And what happened? They were found innocent. Because the system is F*ed up. Now imagine super people in that same f*ed up system's hand, all the damage that can be done for the name of good.

Also if there is someone with powers attacking a city, fighting the cops all over the city, destroying property/killing people all over the place. Whos going to stop him/her if the police obviously is way over their head and the person(hero) who can is retired at home because he chose not to register. Will the collateral damage be as much or less if the unregistered hero had acted? Probably not.


Originally posted by Entity

Anyway that's not even the point of this thread. This thread is about The Ultimate Price and what you think really is the ultimate price. I'm fine with continuing this conversation but can't we do it in a more appropriate thread?

Agreed. Im sure all this was covered during the Civil War.

As for ultimate price. I think someone killing ur family because u chose to protect the innocent. I can only imagine that losing once family(The Punisher) as retribution is the ultimate price.

Originally posted by Entity
Actually Yes! Exactly like Tony, if your referring to his actions in Civil War.

I still feel what he did in Civil War was almost completely right despite his methods. I really understand what he was doing and why he had to do it all that way. Really its part of why I'm hoping that Cap was a Skrull because I think that Cap would have seen this too and realised this is what needed to be done. The good of the people should come before the heroes. I mean they weren't even asking for them to be publicly known just registered so they could be held accountable for their actions. This is a big part of why I really wish Peter had stuck with Tony on it. He finally had a chance to be realised as one of the good guys and become accepted by society.

I really just can see anything the anti registration side had that really measures up to them actually being right. If they didn't want to register they should have just quit. IMO This is an excellent written view point on Tony's actions during CW. I agree 100%.

Regulation would be much better than registration and satisfy people on both sides.

Originally posted by Entity


What are they suppose to do? Just let people with powers beyond normal humans and some even near godlike free to make their own laws just because they aren't as containable as the rest of us? Its not like they're being forced to register, they have the option to retire. But if they wish to continue acting as the law enforcement then they should be treated as such with the same regulations.


By "they", you mean regular people. The Avengers was the closest thing, before Civil War, to a registration.

The Ultimates have shown why registration is a bad idea. So has Kingdom Come. I can think of other stories but it needs to be in the hands of people who have continued for years to be good superheroes who can show the upcoming guys the ropes. Anymore than that is threatening the entire point of superheroes.

As far as ultimate sacrifice, depends on the character. But no is going to agree on what is exactly the "ultimate" sacrifice on a general basis.

The question should be posed for a specific character.

Originally posted by Darth Vicious



Good point but all that happens all the time. Not exactly as u described it but it happens. Didnt 3 police officers in NY shot an unrmed guy over 50 times? And what happened? They were found innocent. Because the system is F*ed up. Now imagine super people in that same f*ed up system's hand, all the damage that can be done for the name of good.





Sean Bell

i know i'm a bit late, but...

Originally posted by Entity
But this registration isn't the same as segregation simply based on minorities because of their race or religion. It has a valid reasoning behind it. People that have and use abilities that can be extremely hazardous and need to be monitored and made to be held accountable for their actions should the need arise.

heroes are accountable for their actions, to themselves and to their own fellow heroes... that's why they're heroes and not villains...



most heroes aren't simply law enforcers, they go up against threats that humankind just isnt prepared or capable of fighting against... look at mutants... they try to look after mutants being victimised and tony turns up and wants them to register... yeah, they'll register because of the way they were born...



that's an incredibly cynical world view, imo...



shield has been corrupted and infiltrated since the start of new avengers... in fact, its pretty much since fury left that shield has gone down the crapper big time, and can't be trusted, imo...



most heroes don't leave behind evidence, due to a kind of material in their costumes or having unbreakable skin...

and you still need a point of comparison... you can't identify superman as being clark kent unless you have DNA from both of them...



that's the problem, right there... you make the point that they collateral damage because of recklessness, which for 99% of heroes just isn't true...



sorry dude, but that is a horrible analogy...

the thing is they're not just making superheroes register but any one with powers not considered normal excluding mutants. Some of these guys probably don't even want to be heroes. but they're being forced to register anyways and if not then eternal imprisonment in an extradimensional prison until they do.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
the thing is they're not just making superheroes register but any one with powers not considered normal excluding mutants. Some of these guys probably don't even want to be heroes. but they're being forced to register anyways and if not then eternal imprisonment in an extradimensional prison until they do.

yep, or else they remove your powers...

and in uncanny x-men 495 tony wanted the mutants to register...

I guess thats about the only good thing the mutants got going for them these days.