The Overseers Vs Living Tribunal, Eternity, and Infinity

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cloud102
The Overseers are beings that live outside the creation of the DCU. Pre-Crisis. They created a being that had the power to judge the multiverse. Like Living Tribunal.

Mr Master
Originally posted by cloud102

The Overseers are beings that live outside the creation of the DCU. Pre-Crisis. They created a being that had the power to judge the multiverse.
Like Living Tribunal.
The Living Tribunal has the power to judge the Omniverse. smile

Is there any more info on these Overseers?

Feats?

Who was this judge?

What are his feats?

KMC's Superboy
wait the overseers like kal l sp ad alexi luther

cloud102
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Living Tribunal has the power to judge the Omniverse. smile

Is there any more info on these Overseers?

Feats?

Who was this judge?

What are his feats?

The judge was named something like Adjuctor or something. The Overseers create him to judge multiverses. The Overseers were beyond creation, so they were beyond omniverses, multiverses, universes, etc... They took away the power of the Adjucator wth ease. Of course they created him, so...

Mr Master
Originally posted by cloud102

The judge was named something like Adjuctor or something.
The Overseers create him to judge multiverses.
Thought you said they were from the pre-crisis era,
DC was a Multiverse back then as I understand it.

Also, where's the proof he judged MultiverseS? (as in plural)
Originally posted by cloud102

The Overseers were beyond creation,

so they were beyond OmniverseS, multiverses, universes, etc...
Heh, I think you're getting ahead of yourself there friend.

fangirl101
Originally posted by Mr Master
Thought you said they were from the pre-crisis era,
DC was a Multiverse back then as I understand it.

Also, where's the proof he judged MultiverseS? (as in plural)

Heh, I think you're getting ahead of yourself there friend.
DC's multiverse=marvel's omniverse.

ALL reality is ALL reality.

cloud102
Originally posted by Mr Master
Thought you said they were from the pre-crisis era,
DC was a Multiverse back then as I understand it.

Also, where's the proof he judged MultiverseS? (as in plural)

Heh, I think you're getting ahead of yourself there friend.

No, I meant multiverse. And Overseers existed OUTSIDE of creation. They were truly omnipotent. I hardly remember the story, but that;s what I recall.

Mr Master
Originally posted by fangirl101

DC's multiverse=marvel's omniverse.

ALL reality is ALL reality.
Not exactly,

all reality is all reality, I agree,
but all reality in the pre-crisis DC days was a single infinite Multiverse.

While the Marvel Omniverse consists of an infinite amount of infinite MultiverseS.

Quite different, no?

Mr Master
Originally posted by cloud102

No, I meant multiverse.
Cool.
Originally posted by cloud102

And Overseers existed OUTSIDE of creation.
That doesn't really mean much, the Phoenix Force exists outside of creation,
and it gets owned consistently.
Originally posted by cloud102

They were truly omnipotent.
I hardly remember the story, but that;s what I recall.
I'm sure, I'd just like some proof to solidify that as fact.

cloud102
Maybe, but the Phoenix force isn't omnipotent and certainly not on the Adjuicator's level. Overseers are.

Endless Mike
Scans please

Mr Master
Originally posted by cloud102

Maybe, but the Phoenix force isn't omnipotent
and certainly not on the Adjuicator's level. Overseers are.
Fair enough, but know that this is just based on what you're saying,
and unfortunately, around here that doesn't hold any water without proof of some kind.

Tell us the issues, I'm sure one of us have it.

cloud102
Originally posted by Mr Master
Fair enough, but know that this is just based on what you're saying,
and unfortunately, around here that doesn't hold any water without proof of some kind.

Tell us the issues, I'm sure one of us have it.

Old Wonder Woman issue. From 1982, IIRC. Google it. There is a guy named Elrahprime who put the Overseers on his list.

Here is his hierarchy.

1) Beings/Forces who are beyond any creation (Beings that even Hypertime does apply to them)
The Presence/The Overseers

The Source/Carnivore with Presence's power/Gyges and Garamas/Ultimate Light/Ultimate Darkness (Ultimate Darkness and Ultimate Light are the balance of the Presence)/The Voice/The Unnameable One

The Decreator/Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael/Elaine with Michael's power and Demiurgic Energy/The Adjudicator/Spectre/Eclipso (Wrath of God)

Archangel Gabriel, Uriel, Raphael, Michael (Chaos Bringer), Saraquel, Raguel

2) Hypertime abstract Beings/Forces (beings that could affect the whole Hypertimeline)
Hyperman (God of Hypertime Jonathan Kent)

World's Funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite (May not be the Central Hypertimeline or 'in-continuity' Mxyzptlk or Bat-Mite but still existed from a different hypertimeline)

3) Multiversal abstract beings/forces (beings that could affect the Multiverse)
Una, the Worm of Heaven and Hell/Ea/Mallo Keeper of the Cosmic Balance/The Sword of Destiny/The Word/The Void/Demiurgic Energy/The Witching Hour /Anti-Monitor (full version)/Entropy or Krona at full potential/The Great Light (no relations to the Ultimate Darkness or Ultimate Light)/The Darkness (could be the Anti-Monitor's shadow servants merged as one. But that's debatable)/Godwave/The Ultimator or 10th dimensional beings/The Abyss

4) Universal abstract beings/fundamental forces who embody a universe (Beings that could affect a single universe)
Kismet or Eternity (same being , but the name Pre-Crisis Superwoman called her universe in Superman Family Arc)/Death/Infinity (The Timestream)/Oblivion (Nothingness)/Angor/Entropy (End of Time after everything dies)/Maltusian Gods/The Moraiei/Three Witches/Other forms the Witching Hour manifest itself throughout the universe/Destiny/Dream I/Dream II/Darksome/Yk'Kphat/the Antechamber of Souls/The Great Tree/The Abyss (Pre-Boot Dial H For Hero Villain)/5th dimensional imp king or queen (Queen Gzntplzk or King Brpxz)/Omega Attractor/Epoch with Omega Attractor/The Oracle Entity/Maaldor/Ningal/The Aleph/Order/Chaos/Willow and her husband as one (one with the universe)/OA/Quantum Field/Speed Force/Parallax Entity/Azarath/Astro-Force/Omega Effect/Alpha Energy/Zero Hour Parallax (full power)/Ion/Sunbust energy/The Shadowlands/Joker with Maaldor Power/Mr. Mxyzptlk/Bat-Mite/Lkz/Ykz/The Mxy Twins (Mxyzptlk split into 2)/A typical 5th dimensional imp (Zrffians, Thunderbolts, and Mite-Imps) (average showing)/Emperor Joker/Cosmic Lotus/Nebula Man

The Concentrator/The Primal Atom/The Sun-Stone/Genesis Box/Warlogog/Warlogog wielder/Damage (Big Bang)/Anti-Matter Cannon/The Master Blaster

5) Abstract Concepts/physical body and manifestations of the Presence
Destruction/The Decay ancient force/Anomaly (also known as Fires of Creation itself)/Desire/Despair/Dellirium/The Union/Dark Lords of the Ultra-Realm (War, Chaos, Madness, Hate, Death, Greed and Rage), Light Lords of the Ultra-Realm (Peace, Grace, Enlightenment, Love, Order, Life and Bliss)/Rama Kushna/Meshta/Wally the God Boy/Godhead

6) Physical body and manifestations of abstract concepts
Black Racer/Black Flash/Nekron I/The Ecrus/Anti-Life Entity/Anyone wielding the ALE/Eon (full power)/Decay II/Tiamat

7) Godlike Metahumans/1st class Metaphysicals, Semi-Abstract, God-Like beings, race, Demons, Angels/Metaphysicals that could affect the universe
Hamilton Benedict/Gemini Entity/Alexander Luthor/Gemworld Dimension (currently Amethyst's spirit)/Jonathan Kent/Progenitor (Element Lad reaching his full potential and becoming God of a galaxy)/Progenitor and Omnipagues (merged as one being)/

The Promethian Giants/The Quantum Mechanics/The Anti-Matter Man (Pre-Boot)

Ramiel/Duma/Sandalphon/Archangel Amendaniel/Lord of Order (Shatru, St'ann, Terataya, Ynar, J'akk, Nabu the Wise, Patagones, Amethyst)/Lord of Chaos (Child, Gorrum, Hytuurnus, m'Shulla, Shivering Jemmy, The Weaver, T'Charr,The Shallow Brigade and the Laughing Dancers,The five original Lords of Chaos,Typhon, Vandaemon, Zanadu)/The Unity/Shattered God/SHAZAM's Elder Gods (Marzosh, Arel, Ribalvei, Voldar, Elbiam, Lumium)/S'ivaa The Destroyer/The Shadow Elements race/The Three Demons - Rath, Ghast, Abnegazar/Clockwerx/Trigon (in his dimension)/Krona/Bedlam/Dominus/Jakeem Thunder/Johnny Thunder/30th Century or present Mordru/The Great Darkness Saga Darkseid/Doctor Manhattan/Satan/Spear of Destiny/Azmodus (like the Spectre varies)/Shaitan/Shathan/Ultimate Man (fully evolved)/Ganthet possessed by Parallax/Superman Prime/Wonder Woman channeling the Godwave/Starbreaker/Yuga Khan/Imperiex/Brainiac 13/Fenris the Devourer/Omniphagues/Overmaster/Epoch/Vyronis/Preacherverse God/King of Tears/The Devil/Corinthian/The First of the Fallen/Saint of Killer/Angel of Death/Time Trapper I (Rokk Krinn)/Time Trapper II (Lori Morning?)/Glorith/Infinite Man/Timeless Ones/The Time Beast/Kulak/Eclipso (depowered and became Heart of Darkness)/Abraxis/Dr. Destiny/The Agents/Dark Angel/Zatanna and Adam (Godhead)/Agent If and the Realtor/The Carnivore (pre-God)/Cykroth/The Evil One/Maggedon/Alien Ator of the Timeless Place/Primordial Old Gods of Chaos/The Lords of Light/Nether-World Gods/Satan (Phantom Stranger issue pre-boot)/Willie Wisher/Father Time/Captain Skull/Cocoon of the Undying Ones

8) 1st Class Metahumans, supernatural, and aliens/2nd class Metaphysicals,Semi-Abstract, and God-Like beings/race/Demons/Angels
The Unimaginable/Unimaginable's race/Candlemaker/Egregores/TDHD MadGod of Sector 3600/Millinneum Giants/Cosmic Gamblers/OWner of the Earth/The A/Rift/Neron/The Second of the Fallen/The Third of the Fallen/The Endless One/Old Gods- Arzaz, Baaldur, Lokee, The Nameless One, Sirius, Wotan/A typical 5th dimensional imp (varies) (low showings)/The I/Luck Lords/X'Hal/Agamemno/The Aurakles/The One/The Fiend with Five Faces/Erishad's baby/Outer Gods (Shub-Niggurath, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep)/Elder Gods and the Old Ones (Cthulhu,M'Nagalah, k'zum'uggarth, Daemoniacus, Kolkothak, Koth-Shugoth, The Undying Ones and the N'Garai)/Netherworld Creatures/Andromeda and M'onel given powers by the Anomaly/The ID/The Miracle Machine/Parallax (Post Zero Hour)/Jericho (vessel of Azarath)/Zauriel (angel form)/Asmodel/Pax Dei host/Thrones/Saraphim/other angel host that Gabriel or Sandalphon are in charge of/Earth-Born Angels- Supergirl (angelic powers), Comet, and Blithe (if they actually use their powers), Twilight with Supergirl's Earth Born Angel Power (still has it I believe)/Jesse Custer/Genesis/The Light Entity/Leviathan (Phantom Stranger pre-boot)/Asmodeus/Oblivion II/Secret (full potential)

Sun Eater/Mr. Nebula/Cannibal Planet/Aquarius/Other Living Stars/Council of the Living Stars/Solaris/Morbiac the Zombie Star/The Vampire Sun/Mogo/Empire of Tears/Wonderworld inhabitors- Adam One, The Mote, and other Wonderworlders/Manhunter of Mars/Parliaments of Planets/Earth Elemental Swamp Thing/The Ancient Ones/Maya/Gaea

Monitor/Anti-Monitor (before he absorbed the multiverse)/Scarabus

cloud102
9) Skyfather levels
Highfather Izaya/Darkseid/Takion/Stayne/a typical Guardians of the Univese/Ganthet/Phantom Stranger/Zeus/Odin or any skyfathers/SHAZAM wizard/The Controllers/The Zamarons/Guardians Council/Qwardians (creator of the Anti-Green Lantern Corps)/Ares/Harmonia/Deimos/Eris/Phobos/Thunderhead/Helia/Odin/Osiris/Mother Herrae and other Primitives/Osirect/Anubis/Hades/Cronus/Harrier/Disdain/Titan/Slaughter/Arch/Oblivion/other skyfathers and death gods/Superman 1 million/Superman Dynasty/Koth/The Seven/Wonder Woman (Goddess)/Animal Avatars Gods (Hawkgod, Snakegods, Beargods, Bullgods, etc.)/Rao and other Kryptonian gods/Gog/Evil Avatar Raven/Trigon's Daughter Raven/Lord Satanis/Trigon (on Earth)/Infernal One/The Redeemer/Mister Miracle (ruling New Genesis)/Stone Giant's race/Parliament of Flames/Parliament of Stones/Parliament of Waves/Parliament of Trees/Parliament of Vibes/Blaze/Lord Satanus/The Three Faces of Evil- Terror, Sin, and Wickedness/Validus (Pre-Boot)/The Powerstone or anyone wielding the Powerstone/Metron/Red Jack/Rhea Jones (reaching her full potential before killing Red Jack)/Shadowy Mr. Evans/Saint of Killer/Dark Gods/Lois Lane (Goddess of Integrity)/Dreamslayer/Spirit King/Ultimate Man/X'ult/Evolvo harnessing the space and time Anomaly/Willow/Willow's chils/Snapper Carr (genetic potential)/Human race (genetic potential)/Jesse Custer/Genesis/The Ancient Ones/Xenon/Disciple/H'ronmeer/C'eridyall/The Four Horsemen of Apocalypse - Death, War, Faminine, and Plague (manifestations of The Adjudator's will)

10) Time-travelers/2nd class metahumans, supernatural, and aliens
Extant/Waverider and Linear Man/Hourman III (without the worlogog)/Gabriel Walker/Doomsday with GL Ring/Decay III/Brimstone/The Annihilator/Eon (depowered)/Godfrey Gaius (true form)/Black Zero/Gayle Marsh (Psi)/Lex Luthor (portion of Darkseid's power)/Penguin (portion of Darkseid's power)/Joker (portion of Darkseid's power)/Brainiac (potion of Darkseid's power)/Agogg/Pre-Crisis Superman/Pre-Crisis Supergirl/Pre-Crisis Kryptonians/Pre-Crisis Daxamites/Mon-El/Pre-Crisis Superboy/Pre-Crisis Wonderwoman/Pre-Crisis Andromeda/Bloodthirst (could be higher, not much is known about him except that he could change his appearance and he beat the crap out of Superman)/Monarch/Dev-Em/OWAW Doomsday/Doomsday War Doomsday/Goldstar/Triumph given powers by Lkz/Pre-Crisis Maxima/OWAW Superman (merged with Strange Visitor)/Pre-Crisis Ultraboy/Superwoman (Kristen Wells)/Hunter and Prey Doomsday/Element Lad/Element Man/Starfinger/Star Boy/Kid Quantum II/Kid Pyscho/Graviton Man/Gravity Lord (both could be higher)/Superboy Robot (pre-crisis)/Atmos/Brother Blood/Dr. Light (full potential, enraged, and very crazy)/Dr. Light II/Superboy of the 843rd Century/Superboy 1 million

11) Herald-Class Level/3rd class angels, metahuman, supernautrals, and demons/Hulk-Level
Helspont/Lord Defile/Saviour/Regis and Blue Aliens/Preacherverse Devil/Dark Lantern/Dark Flash/Fernus/Burning Martians/Vartox/Amazo/The OMAC Androids/BION/Composite Superman/Garok/Dr. Fate/Dr. Fate II/Dr. Fate III/Dr. Fate IV/Tim Hunter/Tim Hunter II (Tim Hunter's evil counterpart from another universe)/Anti-Fate (high portrayal in the Fates and TM)/Kestrel I/Krestrel II/Composite Man/Deadman (varies)/Green Lantern Priest/Creator-2/Zatanna/Jennifer Morgan/Janissary with Book of Eternity/Despero/Zoom 2/Shaggy Man/The General/The Elementals (Swamp Thing, Red Tornado, Firestorm, Naiad)/Orion (highest showing)/Brainiac 2.5/Doomsday Rex/Sun-dipped Superman

Martian Manhunter/Malefic/Hyperclan- A-Mortal, Armek, Fluxus, Primad, Protex, Tronix, Zenturion and Zum/Green, Pale, Red and White Martians (at their best)/Alan Scott/Kyle Rayner/Raker/Hal Jordan/Kilowog/John Stewart/Guy Gardner/typical Green Lantern (highest showing)/Wally West (highest showing or using Speed Force)/Sinestro/Effigy/Nero/Major Force/Captain Atom (highest showing)/Firestorm I and Firestorm II (highest showing)/Celeste Rockfish/Cobalt Blue/Kilg%re/Obsidian/Dr. Polaris

Superman/Mr. Majestic (could be ranked higher)/M'onel/The Martians (average to high)/Kryptonians/Daxamites/Andromeda/Captain Marvel/Lightray/Black Adam/Eradicator/Martian Mahunter/Alan Scott/Kyle Rayner/Raker/Hal Jordan/Kilowog/John Stewart/Guy Gardner/typical Green Lantern (average)/Ultraman/Orion (average showing)/Captain Atom (average showing)/Doomsday/Firestorm I/Firestorm II (average to high)/Breach/Max Faraday/The Void/Providence/Manchester Black/Power Ring/Massacre/High-Tech/Anti-Green Lanterns/Malefic/Green Martians/Rhea Jones/Preus/Cyborg Superman/Mongul/Zatanna (average showing)/Auron/Radiant/Despero/Thor/Captain Comet/Starboy/Starman I/Starman II/Starman III/Starman IV/Starman V/Starman VI/Starman VII/Starman VIII/Starman 1,000,000/Lord Malvolio/Jade/Evil Star/General Zod/Ignition/Kancer/Warrior/Lex Luthor (Armor)/Manchester Black/Triumph/Strata/The Crusade/The Union/Golgoth/Superman Robots/Superman Androids/Brainiac/Pulsar Stargrave/Ultivac/Manhunters/Darkstars/Arion/Dr. Occult/Echantress/Steel (Aegis Entropy Armor)/Ultraboy/Warlord of Ys/Anti-Matter Man/Antithesis/Brainwave II/Ferro Lad/Cosmic Boy (pre-Crisis)/Gaius (in coma)/Lobo/Etrigan

Wonder Woman/Circe/Maxima (high showing)/Samaritan/Apollo/Icon/The Martians (low showings)/the Green Lanterns (average to low showings)/Captain Atom (average to low showings)/Maul/Solomon Grundy/Uncle Sam/Death Rite (Draaga)/Hercules/Mantis/Ultra Boy/Captain Marvel Jr./Mary Marvel (high showing on the Marvel sidekicks)/Geoforce (high showing)/Faora/Arclight/Son of Vulcan/Bizarro/Thor/Wanjina/Red Tornado/
Body Defenses of the Owner of the Earth/Kalibak/Grayven/Superwoman/Zealot/Validus (Post Zero-Hour)/Steve Dayton/Solaar/The Olympian/Ferro/Cosmic Boy (post-Crisis)/Scanner/White Drawf/Drone/4D/The Key/Imperiex Probes/Heralds of the Owner of the Earth/Terraformer of the Owner of the Earth /Jenny Quantum

Adam Strange/Animal Avatars (Hawkman,Hawkwoman,Lord Viper, avatars of Bears, Barracudas, Snakes, etc.)

12) Lower Class metahumans
Powergirl (high showing)/Hippolyta/Barda/OMAC (Buddle Blank)/Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr. (standard)/Maxima/Fury II/Loose Cannon/Blockbuster I/Blockbuster II/Touch 'n Go/Jack-o-Lantern

Flash II (high showing)/Flash III(post terminal velocity)

Power Girl (standard to low showings)/Mary Marvel/Cap Marvel Junior (standard to low showing on the Marvel)/Donna Troy/Artemis & Hyppolita (highest showings)/Superboy (high showings)/Aquaman (with full on TP and magic hand)

Flash I/Flash II (standard)/Flash III (pre terminal velocity)/Dr. Zoom/Impulse/Johnny Quick/Captain Speed/Kid Flash (former Impulse)/Reverse Flash/Savitar/Speed Demon/Max Mercury/Johnny Quick/Red and Blue Trinity/Christina Alexandrova/Jesse Quick/Barry West/Kid Flash 2/Impulse/23rd Century Flash/Sela Allen/John Fox/speed Metal/Blaine Allen/Jace Allen/Tornado Twins/Hyperguard/Inertia/XS/Flash Kryad/JOhn Fox/Impulse II/Superboy (standard)/Wonder Girl/Aquaman (hook/mechanical hand + full on TP)/Steel/Natasha Irons/Metamorpho/Starman(low showing)/Thunder/Grace/Kid Impala

Atom Smasher/Colossal Boy/Hourman I and II/Geoforce (standard)/Black Lightning/Static/Black Lightning/Jenny Sparks/Vera Black/Behemoth/Scirocco/Prometheus (Hybrid)/Pulse-8/666

Sand/Clayface/Alloy

Aquaman (not full on TP)/Jay Garrick (standard)/Rival/Stargirl/Hawkman/Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman (standard)/Plastic Man

Wally West (Return of Barry Allen)

Silver Age Aquaman/Atom I/Atom II/Apparition/Aqualad/Aquagirl/Aruna/Gorgon/Harpi/Pteradon/Black Nebula/Elongated Man/Flow/Tasmanian Devil

14) 1st clas humans
Overbat (Mitefall)/Croc/Batman's Dark Knight Armor/Vixen/Ragman

15) 2nd class humans
Batman (both Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis)/Bane/Richard Dragon/Bronze Tiger/Blackwing/Warmaker One/Mr. Terrific/Deathstroke/Deadshot/The Joker/Two Face/Nightwing/Robin/Red Hood/The Husk/Black Mask/Green Arrow/Arsenal/Connor Hawke/Batgirl/Catwoman/Lady Shiva/The Squire/The Knight (Ultramarine)/Fleur-De-Lis/Goraiko

King Kandy
Originally posted by Mr Master
Not exactly,

all reality is all reality, I agree,
but all reality in the pre-crisis DC days was a single infinite Multiverse.

While the Marvel Omniverse consists of an infinite amount of infinite MultiverseS.

Quite different, no?
Same number of universes, just categorized differently.

Knowsbleed33
Presence is "God" of the DCU no? Where do these Overseers rank in comparison to the Presence?

cloud102
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Presence is "God" of the DCU no? Where do these Overseers rank in comparison to the Presence?

Who knows? ONE Overseer created a being to wipe out universes during PC, when it had it's own multiverse.

The Overseers are a race of omnipotent beings that exist outside of creation. They haven't been in use since then. That I know of. If you go by the list above, The Overseers are on par with The Presence, but that's just one man's opinion.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Mr Master
Not exactly,

all reality is all reality, I agree,
but all reality in the pre-crisis DC days was a single infinite Multiverse.

While the Marvel Omniverse consists of an infinite amount of infinite MultiverseS.

Quite different, no?

No smile

Marvel Omniverse = all of Marvel Reality

DC Multiverse (Pre Crisis) = all of DC Reality = Current DC Multiverse (or Omniverse, it really doesn't matter how you name it)

DC Universe is not = Marvel Universe per se

all of DC Reality = all of Marvel Reality

infinity x infinity = infinity

Since you an expert in the Marvel cosmic history ^^, I have some questions.

In those Pre-Recton Beyonder an MM days, the Marvel Reality was classified (by Marvel) as an Multiverse, right? Or was it already classifed (by Marvel) as an Omniverse? I don'T mean what is beyond the Multiverse, DC had that too I guess after reading this thread. I mean, did they use the Word Omniverse to classify their Marvel Verse BACK THEN?

So the Marvel Multiverse, or Marvel-Verse was renamed to an Omniverse "recently", or expanded (though you can't expand infinity, anyway, comics don't have to follow the rules of logic^^), the Beyonder was depowered while LT was promoted by his boss^^?

I don't know much about the Overseers, but it sounds like the DC Version of the Pre-Recton Beyonder, existing outside of the Multiverse etc.

Anyway, if all of Reality was an Multiverse back in those glorious Pre-Rectonn Beyonder days, and this Multiverse is now only an small Part of the larger Marvel Omniverse, wouldn't that mean that the Multiverse was depowerded too?
It's Infinity is limited by the infinity of the larger Omniversal infinity. Hence the DC Infinity of the "single" DC-Multiverse = the Infinity of the Pre-Rectonn Marvel Multiverse = the infinity of the new Marvel Omniverse >>>>>>>> the new Marvel Multiverses?
So we can say that the DC Multiverse (all of DCs Reality)>>>>>>> an Marvel Multiverse (small Part of all Reality).
DC Multiversal threats = Marvels Omniversal Threats >>>>>>> Marvel Multiversal Threats
no expression

Well, the Terms are used in different ways by both companies, but who cares wink.

cloud102
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
No smile

Marvel Omniverse = all of Marvel Reality

DC Multiverse (Pre Crisis) = all of DC Reality = Current DC Multiverse (or Omniverse, it really doesn't matter how you name it)

DC Universe is not = Marvel Universe per se

all of DC Reality = all of Marvel Reality

infinity x infinity = infinity

Since you an expert in the Marvel cosmic history ^^, I have some questions.

In those Pre-Recton Beyonder an MM days, the Marvel Reality was classified (by Marvel) as an Multiverse, right? Or was it already classifed (by Marvel) as an Omniverse? I don'T mean what is beyond the Multiverse, DC had that too I guess after reading this thread. I mean, did they use the Word Omniverse to classify their Marvel Verse BACK THEN?

So the Marvel Multiverse, or Marvel-Verse was renamed to an Omniverse "recently", or expanded (though you can't expand infinity, anyway, comics don't have to follow the rules of logic^^), the Beyonder was depowered while LT was promoted by his boss^^?

I don't know much about the Overseers, but it sounds like the DC Version of the Pre-Recton Beyonder, existing outside of the Multiverse etc.

Anyway, if all of Reality was an Multiverse back in those glorious Pre-Rectonn Beyonder days, and this Multiverse is now only an small Part of the larger Marvel Omniverse, wouldn't that mean that the Multiverse was depowerded too?
It's Infinity is limited by the infinity of the larger Omniversal infinity. Hence the DC Infinity of the "single" DC-Multiverse = the Infinity of the Pre-Rectonn Marvel Multiverse = the infinity of the new Marvel Omniverse >>>>>>>> the new Marvel Multiverses?
So we can say that the DC Multiverse (all of DCs Reality)>>>>>>> an Marvel Multiverse (small Part of all Reality).
DC Multiversal threats = Marvels Omniversal Threats >>>>>>> Marvel Multiversal Threats
no expression

Well, the Terms are used in different ways by both companies, but who cares wink.

In DC's The Next, the term "Omniverse" was used. The Oblivion Shadow threatened all creation. Or Omniverse. So the Oblivion Shadow was a Omniverse threat.

Erik-Lensherr
The Adjudicator ..

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/Adjudicator-1.jpg

„A star-spawned being whose mind has comprehended vast Universes and obliterated them with a shrug”

cloud102
Thanks a bunch. Do you have a scan of the Overseers?

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by cloud102
In DC's The Next, the term "Omniverse" was used. The Oblivion Shadow threatened all creation. Or Omniverse. So the Oblivion Shadow was a Omniverse threat.

But the DC Omniverse has only one infninite Multiverse. I mean the infinity is called Multiverse, sometimes Omniverse in DC right? ^^

just curious stick out tongue

cloud102
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
But the DC Omniverse has only one infninite Multiverse. I mean the infinity is called Multiverse, sometimes Omniverse in DC right? ^^

just curious stick out tongue

That was never explained. Anyway, it was mentioned by a scientist that "Superman saved the Omniverse". Later Metron needed the aid of The Next heroes AND Superman to SAVE the Metaverse. Whatever that is. It was also said that the Oblivion Shadow was a threat to ALL creation. Thus a threat to the Omniverse.

Erik-Lensherr
Originally posted by cloud102
Thanks a bunch. Do you have a scan of the Overseers?

If I remember correctly, they haven't actually appeared on panel, just reffered to when Adjudicator's history was revealed.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
If I remember correctly, they haven't actually appeared on panel, just reffered to when Adjudicator's history was revealed.

Could it be that they are the artists and writers from DC? Since we can't see them, they have no shape, just an name like TOAA. Though TOAA is alone and they seem to be many.

If it's so then Overseers >>>> LT, Eternity Infinity, Thanos with HOTU and Pre-Rectonn Beyonder smile.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
No smile
Ya. smile
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Marvel Omniverse = all of Marvel Reality

DC Multiverse (Pre Crisis) = all of DC Reality = Current DC Multiverse (or Omniverse, it really doesn't matter how you name it)

DC Universe is not = Marvel Universe per se

all of DC Reality = all of Marvel Reality
DC can have an Omniverse now, that doesn't bother me one bit,
in fact, I've said it before, I wish they cemented that as a fact,
unfortunately the most we've seen is a scientist claim that Supes saved the Omniverse.

Meh, it's enough for me, but many, most actually will call that hyperbole,
since it's a single statement with no illustrated depiction of this "Omniverse."

On the other hand I disagree with you
if you're comparing pre-crisis DC's size to Marvel's current.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

infinity x infinity = infinity
Nah.

In Marvel there are different levels of infinity.

They base this idea on the real world's "Cantor's Theorem,"
mathematician who proved there are indeed, "levels of Infinity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Cantor's Theorem:

"The theorem is named for Georg Cantor, who first stated and proved it."

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/659/c2cf9.th.jpg:

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Since you an expert in the Marvel cosmic history ^^, I have some questions.

In those Pre-Recton Beyonder an MM days,
the Marvel Reality was classified (by Marvel) as an Multiverse, right?
Or was it already classifed (by Marvel) as an Omniverse?

I mean,
did they use the Word Omniverse to classify their Marvel Verse BACK THEN?
The canon Marvelverse was an infinite Multiverse.

The term Omniverse was being used by Marvel since 1983,
but it was isolated in UK titles only,
which were not part of continuity at the time.

Officially, the Omniverse was introduced into continuity in 92'

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I don'T mean what is beyond the Multiverse,
DC had that too I guess after reading this thread.
I haven't seen anything that proves that yet.

A scan of a face that states it can destroy universes with a shrug surely doesn't.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

So the Marvel Multiverse, or Marvel-Verse was renamed to an Omniverse "recently", or expanded (though you can't expand infinity, anyway, comics don't have to follow the rules of logic^^),
It expanded, like I said, by 92' it was official.

Also, as I said, in Marvel, like in the real world,
there are levels of infinity:

=====================================

I'm not surprised, in Marvel, there are different levels of infinity: (omnipotence)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6475/kkht2.th.jpg

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................


CONTINUES ...

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7586/ccdh3.th.jpg

Kubik finishes:

"Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity,

there are of course, an infinite number more"

=====================================

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

the Beyonder was depowered while LT was promoted by his boss^^?
The Beyonder was drastically depowered,
the LT stayed the same.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I don't know much about the Overseers,
but it sounds like the DC Version of the Pre-Recton Beyonder,
existing outside of the Multiverse etc.
That doesn't make them DC's Beyonder at all imo.

Existing outside of creation is common place in Marvel.

They might be DC's version of the Masters of the Matrix at best.

Beyonder wasn't only outside of creation,
Beyonder was completely disconnected from the Multiverse,
an entire separate reality. (like another company is the best way to describe it)
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Anyway,
if all of Reality was an Multiverse back in those glorious Pre-Rectonn Beyonder days,
and this Multiverse is now only an small Part of the larger Marvel Omniverse, wouldn't that mean that the Multiverse was depowerded too?
Nah.

The Prime Multiverse contains 99% of all the power in Marvel.

It was never depowered, one can argue it was in fact empowered further,
when we consider new characters that have performed incredible feats,
like Protege, Wanda, Alien Entity, Edifice Rex, Vanguaard, to name a few.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

It's Infinity is limited by the infinity of the larger Omniversal infinity.
Scale is nothing, it's the power to do what you want with said scale that counts.

But, for the record, the prime Multiverse > rest of the Omniverse. (not in scale, but power)
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Hence
the DC Infinity of the "single" DC-Multiverse = the Infinity of the Pre-Rectonn Marvel Multiverse = the infinity of the new Marvel Omniverse >>>>>>>> the new Marvel Multiverses?
Nah.

The infinity of the of the Prime Multiverse has always been the same,
well not exactly,
it went from nigh-infinite in 1983,
to infinite in 1984,
to beyond infinite in 1990.

(this is aside from realities outside the Multiverse,
but still connected to the Marvelverse.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

So we can say that the DC Multiverse (all of DCs Reality)>>>>>>> an Marvel Multiverse (small Part of all Reality).
DC Multiversal threats = Marvels Omniversal Threats >>>>>>> Marvel Multiversal Threats
Too much calculating good friend..

Simply put, nowadays,

DC = Marvel.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Well, the Terms are used in different ways by both companies, but who cares
Omniverse specifically translates to "all UniverseS"
whether it's a Multiverse, or Megaverse.

But we were specifying pre-crisis DC to current Marvel,
in which case in size > current Marvel > DC pre-crisis.

Now again,
I believe that nowadays both companies are equal in size,
regardless of terms.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Could it be that they are the artists and writers from DC?
Since we can't see them, they have no shape,
just an name like TOAA. Though TOAA is alone and they seem to be many.
Marvel's BeyonderS have never been seen,
and likewise their a race, with just a name,
this doesn't make them writers/artists, in fact, we know they aren't.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

If it's so then Overseers >>>> LT, Eternity Infinity,
Thanos with HOTU and Pre-Rectonn Beyonder
Heh, I don't think so.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Mr Master
Ya. smile


No smile

Originally posted by Mr Master


DC can have an Omniverse now, that doesn't bother me one bit,
in fact, I've said it before, I wish they cemented that as a fact,
unfortunately the most we've seen is a scientist claim that Supes saved the Omniverse.

Meh, it's enough for me, but many, most actually will call that hyperbole,
since it's a single statement with no illustrated depiction of this "Omniverse."



It wouldn't bother me too, but I prefer the simple Infinite Universe concept, in DCs case, else we will need a thousand more crisises to fix what the writers will do sad.


Originally posted by Mr Master

On the other hand I disagree with you
if you're comparing pre-crisis DC's size to Marvel's current.


That depends, you write it yourself, though in an different way, the Marvel Prime Multiverse holds 99% of the Marvel Omniverse power. That DC Multiverse holds 100% of DC power which equals in power and size the current DC Multiverse which, is equal to the Marvel Omniverse, to be fair wink.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Nah.

In Marvel there are different levels of infinity.

They base this idea on the real world's "Cantor's Theorem,"
mathematician who proved there are indeed, "levels of Infinity."


It's a Theory, and I understand what you try to tell me about the lesser infinity ^^though my statement is still true, infinity x infinity = infinity. The Paradoxon, for this theory isn't mentioned in my example as I don't define the term Infinity except with the word infinity. To make the complicated simple lets say infinity is = 1, between 0 and 1 there is an infinite number of 0,1xxxxx 0,2xxxxxx 0,001xxxx etc. that is the infinity you talk about i assume, the infinity that is limited by it's own infinity, say the limited infinity, the theory marvel uses.

So we have an infinite DC-Verse (in size as empty as it may be) = 1
and
an infinite Marvel-Verse = 1 (maybe not so empty but who cares^^)

DC-Verse is an Multiverse, hence DC Multiverse = 1 (I guess they prefer other theories)

Marvel-Verse is an Omniverse, hence Marvel Omniverse = 1
to simplfy the rest we say that an Megaverse is = 0,1 and an Multiverse = 0,001

DC Multiverse (1) > Marvel Multiverse (0,001)
DC Multiverse >= Marvel Prime Multiverse (in power as you said) (0,9999999999999999....)

DC uses another Theory i guess but in the end they still use their old Pre Crisis Multiverse concept which ist as infinite as the omniverse concept from marvel, THOUGH under its own rules, and theory.



Originally posted by Mr Master


Officially, the Omniverse was introduced into continuity in 92'


Was this before or after Beyonder was rectonned?

Originally posted by Mr Master


I haven't seen anything that proves that yet.

A scan of a face that states it can destroy universes with a shrug surely doesn't.


I haven't seen anything either, i just took the word of the one claiming it, call me naive big grin


Originally posted by Mr Master

It expanded, like I said, by 92' it was official.

Also, as I said, in Marvel, like in the real world,
there are levels of infinity:

=====================================

I'm not surprised, in Marvel, there are different levels of infinity: (omnipotence)

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................


CONTINUES ...


Kubik finishes:

"Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity,

there are of course, an infinite number more"

=====================================


That's Marvel way of handling their infinity which isnt greater nor smaller then the DC infinity.
Or do you think that the Theories Marvel uses for their comics should be forced upon the DC-Verse?
^^

Originally posted by Mr Master


The infinity of the of the Prime Multiverse has always been the same,
well not exactly,
it went from nigh-infinite in 1983,
to infinite in 1984,
to beyond infinite in 1990.

(this is aside from realities outside the Multiverse,
but still connected to the Marvelverse.


So it WAS night infinite in 1983
it WAS infinite in 1984
and it IS beyond infinite (in the Marvel way) since 1990?

I say was because if we would talk about it 1984 it indeed would be infinte and not beyond infinite.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Too much calculating good friend..

Simply put, nowadays,

DC = Marvel.


I guess we agree at least, maybe not in the detail but in the greater sense. smile

I also say that Marvel was always = DC as it doesn't matter if one Verse limits or expands itself. If one compares both Verses of companies each one is as infinite as the other.

For example, if Marvel would say that the Marvel verse is just one infinite Universe it would be as infinite as the whole DC Multiverse. wink

Originally posted by Mr Master

Omniverse specifically translates to "all UniverseS"
whether it's a Multiverse, or Megaverse.

But we were specifying pre-crisis DC to current Marvel,
in which case in size > current Marvel > DC pre-crisis.

Now again,
I believe that nowadays both companies are equal in size,
regardless of terms.

I agree, except that I'm not sure (I can't find the statement in my comic books, I don't have so many, maybe someone else might enlighten me wink )that the current DC Multivers is bigger in size then the Pre-Crisis Multiverse

but current MarvelOmniverse = current DC-Multiverse smile

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Mr Master
Marvel's BeyonderS have never been seen,
and likewise their a race, with just a name,
this doesn't make them writers/artists, in fact, we know they aren't.


Heh, I don't think so.

The Beyonder was drawn and written and named, even limited by himself, and with one the whole race was damned to become one fictional race, that forces the will of it's creators upon the Marvel comics. It's simillar to DC' Presence. The Overseers sound more like TOAA to me.

All were born in the second someone wrote their name, or draw them. All came to be because of the fantasy of RL people. How Supreme they are is open for debate i guess smile.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

No smile
Ya. smile
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

It wouldn't bother me too, but I prefer the simple Infinite Universe concept, in DCs case, else we will need a thousand more crisises to fix what the writers will do.
To each his own.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

That depends, you write it yourself, though in an different way, the Marvel Prime Multiverse holds 99% of the Marvel Omniverse power. That DC Multiverse holds 100% of DC power which equals in power and size the current DC Multiverse which, is equal to the Marvel Omniverse, to be fair
I respect you opinion.

But I'll stick with current Marvel > pre-criss DC in size.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

It's a Theory, and I understand what you try to tell me about the lesser infinity ^^though my statement is still true, infinity x infinity = infinity. The Paradoxon, for this theory isn't mentioned in my example as I don't define the term Infinity except with the word infinity. To make the complicated simple lets say infinity is = 1, between 0 and 1 there is an infinite number of 0,1xxxxx 0,2xxxxxx 0,001xxxx etc. that is the infinity you talk about i assume, the infinity that is limited by it's own infinity, say the limited infinity, the theory marvel uses.

So we have an infinite DC-Verse (in size as empty as it may be) = 1
and
an infinite Marvel-Verse = 1 (maybe not so empty but who cares^^)

DC-Verse is an Multiverse, hence DC Multiverse = 1 (I guess they prefer other theories)

Marvel-Verse is an Omniverse, hence Marvel Omniverse = 1
to simplfy the rest we say that an Megaverse is = 0,1 and an Multiverse = 0,001

DC Multiverse (1) > Marvel Multiverse (0,001)
DC Multiverse >= Marvel Prime Multiverse (in power as you said) (0,9999999999999999....)

DC uses another Theory i guess but in the end they still use their old Pre Crisis Multiverse concept which ist as infinite as the omniverse concept from marvel, THOUGH under its own rules, and theory.
You lost me here.

Let's stick to the simple facts.

Marvel has established the concept of different levels of infinity.

It's based on Canotr's Theorem,
a REAL World theory, like Calculus.

This theorem has been acknowledge since the early 1891,
and even Princeton University recognizes it.

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - the prestigious PRINCETON University website:


"One of the greatest revolutions in mathematics occurred
when Georg Cantor (1845-1918)
promulgated his theory of transfinite sets."

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/4740.html

................................................................................................................

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Was this before or after Beyonder was rectonned?
After.

Beyonder was retconned in 1990
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I haven't seen anything either,
i just took the word of the one claiming it, call me naive
Be careful taking info to heart based on fonts in a post.

We have many clueless joes runnuing around because of this.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

That's Marvel way of handling their infinity
which isnt greater nor smaller then the DC infinity.

Or do you think that the Theories Marvel uses for their comics
should be forced upon the DC-Verse?
Again, it's not Marvel's "uses" ... it's based on the real world, Cantor's theorem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Cantor's Theorem:

"The theorem is named for Georg Cantor, who first stated and proved it."

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/659/c2cf9.th.jpg

Notice Marvel even literally uses his name on panel.

What DC does with their reality is no concern to me.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

So it WAS night infinite in 1983
it WAS infinite in 1984
and it IS beyond infinite (in the Marvel way) since 1990?
Not the Marvel way ... Cantor's Theorem's way. (from the Real World)
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I say was because if we would talk about it 1984
it indeed would be infinte and not beyond infinite.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I guess we agree at least, maybe not in the detail but in the greater sense.
thumb up
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I also say that Marvel was always = DC as it doesn't matter if one Verse limits or expands itself.
If one compares both Verses of companies each one is as infinite as the other.

For example, if Marvel would say that the Marvel verse is just one infinite Universe it would be as infinite as the whole DC Multiverse.
As you wish.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I agree, except that I'm not sure (I can't find the statement in my comic books, I don't have so many, maybe someone else might enlighten me)that the current DC Multivers is bigger in size then the Pre-Crisis Multiverse

but current MarvelOmniverse = current DC-Multiverse
thumb up

Although DC is bigger now, I believe.

Galan knows the details to this.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

The Beyonder was drawn and written and named, even limited by himself, and with one the whole race was damned to become one fictional race, that forces the will of it's creators upon the Marvel comics.
the BeyonderS have had absolutely nothing to do with pre-retcon Beyonder.

The BeyonderS have never been seen, just like these Overseers.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

It's simillar to DC' Presence. The Overseers sound more like TOAA to me.
I disagree.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

The Beyonder was drawn and written and named, even limited by himself, and with one the whole race was damned to become one fictional race, that forces the will of it's creators upon the Marvel comics.
the BeyonderS have had absolutely nothing to do with pre-retcon Beyonder.

The BeyonderS have never been seen, just like these Overseers.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

All were born in the second someone wrote their name, or draw them. All came to be because of the fantasy of RL people.
???
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

How Supreme they are is open for debate i guess
Simple on panel depictions should easily cover that debate.

If they've never been seen, like Marvel's BeyonderS,
then we'll know what they're capable of based on their creation.
Just like we know the Marvel's BeyonderS are uberdiculous
based on what a Cosmic Cube can do,
and a Cosmic Cube is literally a tiny fraction of their power.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Mr Master
Ya. smile

Marvel has established the concept of different levels of infinity.

It's based on Canotr's Theorem,
a REAL World theory, like Calculus.

This theorem has been acknowledge since the early 1891,
and even Princeton University recognizes it.

What DC does with their reality is no concern to me.

Not the Marvel way ... Cantor's Theorem's way. (from the Real World)



So in the end we can say that Marvel uses the Cantor's Theorem, a Real Wolrd Theory (which still is just one Theory, mind you there are a still others smile ) and DC doesn't, which is only legal as we talk about an fictional Universe. Or did DC ever stated that it's Universal concept is based on the mathematical Cantor's Theorem ?

We are still left with the fact:

DC Multiverse = MArvel Omniverse

Oh yes, that reminds me, if TOAA can do everything, could he create a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it?



I bet even then WWH could lift it shifty

Galan007
Originally posted by cloud102
The Overseers are on par with The Presence, but that's just one man's opinion. It's a good list, for the most part. I disagree with some of his placements, because a few of the characters he ranked have no feats whatsoever. Just personal speculation as to what they might be capable of. Yet he's ranked above WF Mxy, a confirmed Multiversal destroyer/creator?

I don't get it... Guess that's why it's not my list. *shrugs*

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
If I remember correctly, they haven't actually appeared on panel, just reffered to when Adjudicator's history was revealed. Correct you are.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Mr Master
the BeyonderS have had absolutely nothing to do with pre-retcon Beyonder.

The BeyonderS have never been seen, just like these Overseers.


What happend to the Beyonder after he was rectonned? Does he still exist? I mean what is he now, if he has nothing to do with the Beyonders of the Marvel Ominverse?

I hope not an Cosmic cube, cause if the cube is an fraction of the BeyonderS powers he has something to do with them wink:

Endless Mike
So wait, are the Overseers the DC equivalent of the Beyonders?

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