revisit the tpm duel but replace tpm kenobi with rotj luke

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Man of Christ
only because they didnt have the coreography and cgi to make luke look good.........

No, MoC, no.

I'll make an argument as to why Maul would WTFpwn Luke- In terms of force abilities, while Maul never displayed anything truly impressive, neither did Luke by that point- unless they're gonna force push each other to death, a force fight won't be the outcome.

And then again, you have the saber fight; Maul is an extremely talented saber combatant- being a master of Juyo makes it necessary to train in all of the forms and become a high level master of multiple forms. And then you have Luke, who merely had a mediciore Djem So imitated from his duels with Darth Vader. The difference between them is so ridiculous it can't even be described. In terms of physical abilities, Maul outstrips Luke even more; see, Maul was trained to become a complete physical beast- he was extremely agile, fast, not to mention his extensive training in Teras Kasi, which forces the practician to undergo EXTREME physical conditioning (Maul's physical conditioning was beyond anything we've seen). Physically? Maul > Luke. By a MILE. As you can see, Maul's technical skill, strength, speed, stamina, and experience are all far beyond what little neophyte Luke has. If they ever fought, Luke was gonna get pwned hard.

Now, I expect you're gonna pull out the "Luke beat Vader!" card- while it's certainly believable that Vader was on par with Maul in terms of saber abilities (I'd put him at slightly lower than Maul), Luke later acknowledges that Vader could have easily killed him at any point during the engagement, but was dragged down due to his emotional conflict and his will not to kill Luke.

The difference between TPM Kenobi and Luke, however, is far smaller- you have the fact that Luke was considerably less experienced and technically skilled than Obi-Wan, but he did have that immense raw power to make up for it. However, while Luke only had a mediciore, imitated form at his disposal (at best), Obi-Wan had near mastery of Ataru and was considered a highly talented apprentice. While I doubt he would beat Luke as badly as Maul, he's still superior.

Man of Christ

It seems most of your argument is based off what you see in the movies, if they had cgi back then im sure your opinion would differ

if i went by what i saw in the movies, then pre suit vader would pwn anh vader but is that the case? no

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Man of Christ
It seems most of your argument is based off what you see in the movies, if they had cgi back then im sure your opinion would differ

if i went by what i saw in the movies, then pre suit vader would pwn anh vader but is that the case? no

Sure it would. Did you notice that nothing in my argument was based off of the way their fights actually were? I suppose you didn't. Read again.

Oh, and saberwise, RotS Anakin would certainly defeat ANH Vader due to his far greater speed, mobility, and agility- while ANH Vader logically surpasses RotS Anakin in terms of technical skill, Anakin simply has more raw power and mobility, in addition to being capable of becoming stronger the longer the fight goes on; RotS Anakin is at the prime of his saber skills. Not his force powers, certainly, but saber skills.

Before excusing my argument as "Based on CGI!!111!!1", READ.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Sure it would. Did you notice that nothing in my argument was based off of the way their fights actually were? I suppose you didn't. Read again.

Oh, and saberwise, RotS Anakin would certainly defeat ANH Vader due to his far greater speed, mobility, and agility- while ANH Vader logically surpasses RotS Anakin in terms of technical skill, Anakin simply has more raw power and mobility, in addition to being capable of becoming stronger the longer the fight goes on; RotS Anakin is at the prime of his saber skills. Not his force powers, certainly, but saber skills.

Before excusing my argument as "Based on CGI!!111!!1", READ.

i read your post but still you saw tpm no doubt and seeing the movie invariably influences one's decision
luke is not omniscient and could have been mistaken when he said vader could have beaten him.

i say this because in Rotj yoda said luke was ready to face vader.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Man of Christ
i read your post but still you saw tpm no doubt and seeing the movie invariably influences one's decision
luke is not omniscient and could have been mistaken when he said vader could have beaten him.

i say this because in Rotj yoda said luke was ready to face vader.

Does it? I suppose it does, possibly, but all the evidence I posted is based off of evidence which doesn't involve the movie. The fact of the matter is, Luke- circa RotJ- while gifted, isn't on the level of the Jedi we see on the PT.

Luke could've been mistaken- however, you contradict yourself in your post. If he could have been mistaken, then why couldn't YODA be wrong? Yoda, as far as I know, had never fought Anakin in his incarnation as Darth Vader- how could be quite so familiar with the extent of Vader's power? Meanwhile, Luke actually duelled Vader. It's possible that he was simply comparing the swordsmanship he witnessed from Vader when he actually tried to hurt him in Cloud City (after Luke grazed Vader's shoulder), and the swordsmanship he witnessed in their second duel. It's very much possible to see hesitation in one's movements, in one's skills. I seriously doubt Luke was incorrect about that.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Does it? I suppose it does, possibly, but all the evidence I posted is based off of evidence which doesn't involve the movie. The fact of the matter is, Luke- circa RotJ- while gifted, isn't on the level of the Jedi we see on the PT.

Luke could've been mistaken- however, you contradict yourself in your post. If he could have been mistaken, then why couldn't YODA be wrong? Yoda, as far as I know, had never fought Anakin in his incarnation as Darth Vader- how could be quite so familiar with the extent of Vader's power? Meanwhile, Luke actually duelled Vader. It's possible that he was simply comparing the swordsmanship he witnessed from Vader when he actually tried to hurt him in Cloud City (after Luke grazed Vader's shoulder), and the swordsmanship he witnessed in their second duel. It's very much possible to see hesitation in one's movements, in one's skills. I seriously doubt Luke was incorrect about that.

with your statement rise 2 questions then

1) did vader's swordsmanship dimishish so greatly that he wouldnt be able to keep up with any of the pt guys?

2) do you think esb vader would have been able to beat rotj luke

supporting evidence as well please, i am curious to hear

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Man of Christ
with your statement rise 2 questions then

1) did vader's swordsmanship dimishish so greatly that he wouldnt be able to keep up with any of the pt guys?

2) do you think esb vader would have been able to beat rotj luke

supporting evidence as well please, i am curious to hear

1) Vader's swordsmanship diminished in the sense that he lacks the mobility, power, and stamina his previous incarnation did; he's certainly more technically skilled and physically stronger. No, I think he would've been quite capable of defeating Qui-Gon Jinn and up to the AotC incarnations of Obi-Wan and Anakin; but he won't be able to defeat the PT Top Dogs, at least in lightsaber combat. He's an excellent duelist, but his style relies on hammering the opponent into submission with physical strength; he focuses on offense, and I doubt his defense is particularly good. A faster, more agile swordsman like Mace will kick his ass in lightsaber combat because of that. He simply sucks when he fights people faster than he is; he just gets overwhelmed.

2) There's no indication Vader improved from the point of ESB to RotJ. If he's going all-out with the will to kill Luke, Luke's gonna get his head lopped off.

Tangible God

It's true that IF they had CGI and computer imaging back in the 80's, then Luke and Vader would have been comparatively faster and more powerful.

HOWEVER, as they are not, we can't simply say "Well just because they didn't look like it, doesn't mean they weren't." It'd be a rabid contradiction within G-canon if the OT characters were as fast and strong as the PT, but did not look like it whatsoever.

To counter that, the notion that Vader is in a suit and "toyed" with Luke and Ben, is used to explain his lethargy. For Luke, it's his lack of training and experience. For Obi-Wan and Yoda, it's their 19-22 years as very old men going without practice.

ROTJ Luke, with his several weeks of training is not, IS NOT, going to last against a Sith Lord with a LIFETIME of training in the Dark Side, full use of his very mobile limbs, and fantastic stamina. Not to mention that double-bladed saber is gonna throw Luke's underdeveloped saber-skills right off.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Tangible God
It's true that IF they had CGI and computer imaging back in the 80's, then Luke and Vader would have been comparatively faster and more powerful.

HOWEVER, as they are not, we can't simply say "Well just because they didn't look like it, doesn't mean they weren't." It'd be a rabid contradiction within G-canon if the OT characters were as fast and strong as the PT, but did not look like it whatsoever.

did Mace Windu look faster than OT Vader and ROTJ Luke to you??? cause he looked about as slow as Samuel Jackson to me..

so by your argumment if we are going to judge characters by how they looked, then Windu is not a prequel top dog, is actually quite a slow and crap jedi, and would get his ass kicked by OT Vader or ROTJ Luke in a saber duel.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
He's an excellent duelist, but his style relies on hammering the opponent into submission with physical strength; he focuses on offense, and I doubt his defense is particularly good.

iv read he incorporated Soresu into his style after his defeat by Obi-Wan. and I think in Dark Lord Rising it states he incorporated all 7 styles into his style. so its difficult to say how advanced his style became by OT. hed already mastered Djem So, and knew Ataru quite well by ROTS, only at the age of 22. so itd be silly to assume he only stuck to this for the rest of his life.

he seemed to just use Djem So against Luke however. but he was definetely holding back against Luke in ESB and just testing his skills, and possibly in ROTJ as well.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
then why couldn't YODA be wrong?

well it wasnt only Yoda who sed "no more trianing do you require.. already know you that which you need."

Vader also said "your skills are now complete. Indeed you are Powerful as the Emporer has forseen?"

so are Yoda and Vader both wrong??!! Unlikely.

I say since Luke was ready to be knighted, just as TPM Obi-Wan was, their skills were probably on the same level, but with Luke A LOT more powerful.

4 years is enough for someone who starts training at the age of 19, so will probably learn a lot quicker, and also considering he is a Skywalker who are the most natural at learning to use the Force.

if anyone has read the infinity version of Star Wars, where Luke completed his training with Yoda, then ull know Yoda says to him, "never has any of my pupils completed their training so quickly."

Lt. Valerian

I believe Luke is considerably good for the time he's had of training, but no-where near someone like Maul. Nothing suggests he'd be able to match him, not even forcewise. Besides, as Tangible said before, Luke gets completely destroyed by Maul's double-blade.

Tangible God

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
did Mace Windu look faster than OT Vader and ROTJ Luke to you??? cause he looked about as slow as Samuel Jackson to me..

so by your argumment if we are going to judge characters by how they looked, then Windu is not a prequel top dog, is actually quite a slow and crap jedi, and would get his ass kicked by OT Vader or ROTJ Luke in a saber duel. Actually yeah, they did. There were several more twirling leaps and Old Man backflips in the Mace vs. Sidious fight than any OT duel. It's been established, the OT duelists we see are just not as fast as the PT duelists.

The real life explanation is lack of movie-making technology, the in-universe explanation is Vader in a suit, Luke with little training, and Yoda and Kenobi becoming old and out of shape.

Man of Christ

This doesnt make sense...it has to be cgi and nothing else

my justification: they say ben had been out of training which is why he looked so bad against vader. this doesnt add up because siddious and yoda hadnt dueled in a long time and they looked great against eachother.

Tangible God

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Man of Christ
This doesnt make sense...it has to be cgi and nothing else

my justification: they say ben had been out of training which is why he looked so bad against vader. this doesnt add up because siddious and yoda hadnt dueled in a long time and they looked great against eachother.

Okay. I know you say Lucas' words don't matter, but guess what? THEY DO, whether you like it or not.

First of all, 'CGI' has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of the fights; CGI is purely imagery. And for the record; the fights you see in the PT aren't accelerated. It's basically people training intensively for months in order to achieve perfection in a duel; in the OT, fights were done with less care, less visual effects (making the lightsabers look like colored stricks), and significantly worse choreography.

Now then, on to GL: he explained why the OT fighters did not appear as impressive; his 'excuse' wasn't CGI. It was that they were out of shape, untrained, etc, etc, etc... excuses? Possibly. But George Lucas said it. The PT Fights were faster because the fighters were better. GL said it. GL is CANON. Therefore, the things you see on screen do represent the character's power, not just "CGI".

Tangible God pretty much covered up the Yoda and Sidious fight. The reason that they appear so much faster and more impressive than Luke and Vader is because they are STRONGER.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Tangible God
Actually yeah, they did. There were several more twirling leaps and Old Man backflips in the Mace vs. Sidious fight than any OT duel. It's been established, the OT duelists we see are just not as fast as the PT duelists.

The real life explanation is lack of movie-making technology, the in-universe explanation is Vader in a suit, Luke with little training, and Yoda and Kenobi becoming old and out of shape.

no Sidious did the twirls. Mace Windu didnt do any twilrs or leaps in their fight. Mace didnt look any faster or better at fighting than Darth Vader. and yet we know hes a PT top dog. even in AOTC he doesnt do anything "visually" amazing or beyond anything OT Luke or Vader did.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Okay. I know you say Lucas' words don't matter, but guess what? THEY DO, whether you like it or not.

First of all, 'CGI' has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of the fights; CGI is purely imagery. And for the record; the fights you see in the PT aren't accelerated. It's basically people training intensively for months in order to achieve perfection in a duel; in the OT, fights were done with less care, less visual effects (making the lightsabers look like colored stricks), and significantly worse choreography.

Now then, on to GL: he explained why the OT fighters did not appear as impressive; his 'excuse' wasn't CGI. It was that they were out of shape, untrained, etc, etc, etc... excuses? Possibly. But George Lucas said it. The PT Fights were faster because the fighters were better. GL said it. GL is CANON. Therefore, the things you see on screen do represent the character's power, not just "CGI".

Tangible God pretty much covered up the Yoda and Sidious fight. The reason that they appear so much faster and more impressive than Luke and Vader is because they are STRONGER.

Lucas said in the prquels "the Jedis" were at the height of their power. and then we get to Star Wars and Obi-Wans an old man, and Lukes a novice. he also mentions something about Vader being more machine than man, but lets not forget its Lucas who put OT Vader at 80% of the Emporer. and he never specified how good Luke had got by ROTJ.

The Sociopath

If you're arguing (Generally, that is) that the OT and PT Jedis are the same speed, you're quite silly. You did watch Anakin VS Kenobi in ROTS, right? Or Kenobi/Anakin VS Dooku, right? Or Sidious VS Yoda, right? That's just one prequel movie, not counting the intense speed Kenobi had to throw down during his duel against Grievous. The fastest dueling I saw in the OT was when Luke hammered Vader down to his knees in ROTJ, and even that wasn't all that quick.

If you're just referring to Mace, I suggest you pay attention to the Clone Wars animated series or watch AOTC again. ROTS too, maybe?

Tangible God

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
no Sidious did the twirls. Mace Windu didnt do any twilrs or leaps in their fight. Mace didnt look any faster or better at fighting than Darth Vader. and yet we know hes a PT top dog. even in AOTC he doesnt do anything "visually" amazing or beyond anything OT Luke or Vader did. I never said Mace did the twirls. That fight was still more... CGI impressive than any OT fight, but that doesn't mean I think it was OMGWTF, especially compared to the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.

Besides, I was speaking of the PT as a whole in lightsaber fights, don't corner the issue into ONE conveniently less flashy duel.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Tangible God
I never said Mace did the twirls. That fight was still more... CGI impressive than any OT fight, but that doesn't mean I think it was OMGWTF, especially compared to the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.

Besides, I was speaking of the PT as a whole in lightsaber fights, don't corner the issue into ONE conveniently less flashy duel.

Mace's fighting was easily the worst thing in the prequels- in terms of lightsaber duel. The Sidious vs. Mace duel was rather pimpin', but Sidious' (or shall I say, Ian McDiarmid) performance as well as the CGI applied to him made him considerably more impressive than Mace. S'pecially Yoda vs. Sidious.

Hell, Mace vs. Sidious, despite being one of the slower PT fights are still considerably above Vader vs. Luke. Not to mention Sidious vs. Yoda and Anakin vs. Obi.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Okay. I know you say Lucas' words don't matter, but guess what? THEY DO, whether you like it or not.

First of all, 'CGI' has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of the fights; CGI is purely imagery. And for the record; the fights you see in the PT aren't accelerated. It's basically people training intensively for months in order to achieve perfection in a duel; in the OT, fights were done with less care, less visual effects (making the lightsabers look like colored stricks), and significantly worse choreography.

Now then, on to GL: he explained why the OT fighters did not appear as impressive; his 'excuse' wasn't CGI. It was that they were out of shape, untrained, etc, etc, etc... excuses? Possibly. But George Lucas said it. The PT Fights were faster because the fighters were better. GL said it. GL is CANON. Therefore, the things you see on screen do represent the character's power, not just "CGI".

Tangible God pretty much covered up the Yoda and Sidious fight. The reason that they appear so much faster and more impressive than Luke and Vader is because they are STRONGER.
IF these are gl's words then he contradicts himself because dooku was around ben's age but we saw dooku could move.
the youngling who got killed in front of bail organa was significantly weaker than rotj luke but he had great coreography and he moved faster.
so its all about visual afftects. im sure they did the best they could in the 70's .
i dont think gl was like "hey crew lets make these duels suck so we can make the PT ones look better by comparison"

Elite Hunter

Im curious, then what are great lightsaber feats are there in the BOOKS (prior to rotj) that makes Luke a better replacement for tpm obiwan? You can't blame technology/cgi/choreography if there aren't had feats in the novels that puts rotj luke above tpm obiwan as I haven't read that many books about pre tpm obiwan and books that takes place around the same timeframe as the OT.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Man of Christ
IF these are gl's words then he contradicts himself because dooku was around ben's age but we saw dooku could move.
the youngling who got killed in front of bail organa was significantly weaker than rotj luke but he had great coreography and he moved faster.
so its all about visual afftects. im sure they did the best they could in the 70's .
i dont think gl was like "hey crew lets make these duels suck so we can make the PT ones look better by comparison"

How stubborn can you be? Dude. GL SAID it. I don't care if he's contradicting himself, I don't care if he's making up excuses, he said it. It's ESTABLISHED canon, like it or not.

The 'guy' who was killed in front of Bail wasn't exceptionally fast for all I noticed; yes, his jump thingy was certainly done with visual effects, but other than that? There's a reason the guys in PT look better. GL explicitly said that they were faster. What's so hard to get?

Dooku had extensively trained himself and wasn't nearly as out of practice as Obi-Wan. There's the difference to you.

GL, in fact, was more the reverse of what you said: "Let's make the PT duels better to show that the better than in the OT." He SAID that he was trying to show how much faster than guys in the PT were. My god, nothing you can say will change the fact that Luke's isn't nearly as fast as any of the PT top dogs.

The Sociopath

I'm fairly certain the man who created the Star Wars Universe might know a little more than you might, yes?

Gideon

The absolute fact of the matter is that the relative speeds of Force users depicted in the various novelizations, comics, and video games do not contradict the speeds depicted in the movies themselves, according to Leland Chee. The reason? Cinematography lacks a credible way to display fight sequences in which combatants move faster than the eye can see -- we wouldn't be able to see them and the alternative of constantly filming fight sequences in slow motion or Matrix-inspired bullet time is patently preposterous -- so you can bet your ass that inferior technology came into play.

So, Luke Skywalker is certainly not capable of overcoming Obi-Wan Kenobi in a duel because of lack of formal training but certainly not because of an apparent lack of speed or physical capability. His attunement in the Force kicks the dogshit out of Kenobi's, and even in Shadows of the Empire he demonstrates vastly superior speed compared to Prince Xizor's insanely expensive and capable bodyguard droid, Guri.

Tangible God

Originally posted by Gideon
The absolute fact of the matter is that the relative speeds of Force users depicted in the various novelizations, comics, and video games do not contradict the speeds depicted in the movies themselves, according to Leland Chee. The reason? Cinematography lacks a credible way to display fight sequences in which combatants move faster than the eye can see -- we wouldn't be able to see them and the alternative of constantly filming fight sequences in slow motion or Matrix-inspired bullet time is patently preposterous -- so you can bet your ass that inferior technology came into play.

So, Luke Skywalker is certainly not capable of overcoming Obi-Wan Kenobi in a duel because of lack of formal training but certainly not because of an apparent lack of speed or physical capability. His attunement in the Force kicks the dogshit out of Kenobi's, and even in Shadows of the Empire he demonstrates vastly superior speed compared to Prince Xizor's insanely expensive and capable bodyguard droid, Guri.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
How stubborn can you be? Dude. GL SAID it. I don't care if he's contradicting himself, I don't care if he's making up excuses, he said it. It's ESTABLISHED canon, like it or not.

The 'guy' who was killed in front of Bail wasn't exceptionally fast for all I noticed; yes, his jump thingy was certainly done with visual effects, but other than that? There's a reason the guys in PT look better. GL explicitly said that they were faster. What's so hard to get?

Dooku had extensively trained himself and wasn't nearly as out of practice as Obi-Wan. There's the difference to you.

GL, in fact, was more the reverse of what you said: "Let's make the PT duels better to show that the better than in the OT." He SAID that he was trying to show how much faster than guys in the PT were. My god, nothing you can say will change the fact that Luke's isn't nearly as fast as any of the PT top dogs.

a few responses

1) in lucas contradicting himself he negates his own obvious evidence in the films. lucas blaming the weak OT duels on jedi being out of practice is like O.J. saying he didnt kill his wife or dick cheney saying he didnt shoot that guy he was hunting with on purpose. lol

2) vader being mostly machine is a lame excuse because general grevous was mostly machine but he was incredibly mobile. HECK EVEN SUPER BATTLE DROIDS WHO ARE ALL MACHINE IN THE GEONOSIAN ARENA RAN MUCH FASTER THAN VADER EVER DID. so vader being machine should have actually made him faster than slower. which is another unanswered contradiction in the films.

3)Vader and Ben looked like they didnt even know how to hold thier lightsabers in anh, and that makes no since if siddious continually trained vader.

Vader's emotional attachment to luke had nothing to do with how slowly he dueled because when luke nicked his arm in esb he lost his temper and moved a little bit faster but nothing compared to rots. due strictly to coreography.

its due strictly to coreography because vader has actually been using his lightsaber to hunt down jedi in the books that bridge the trilogies but looked aweful in his duel.

heck graphics are so major that GL will probably even have to make an excuse for why vader's blade looked orange for a few seconds in ANH, what will he come up with next? a colour changing focusing crystal? lol

my point is, it is cgi and no in universe explanation can justify the speed diffrence adequately

Gideon

The mechanized augmentations and supplements that came with Darth Vader's suit is considerably different from General Grievous.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Gideon
The mechanized augmentations and supplements that came with Darth Vader's suit is considerably different from General Grievous.

would you say he was similar to the super battle droid in terms of limbs?

also that leads me to another question, if they had the technology why didnt they give him better augmentations?

Tangible God

Originally posted by Man of Christ
would you say he was similar to the super battle droid in terms of limbs?

also that leads me to another question, if they had the technology why didnt they give him better augmentations? Dude, what do you want, Lucas to knock on your door admitting his contradiction had offering you a formal apology, perhaps a job as Official Retconner in Charge of Fixing Plot Holes?

There was two decades between the films, shit is gonna change or get left out, but that does not mean you can come up with your own interpretation and call it canon.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Tangible God
Dude, what do you want, Lucas to knock on your door admitting his contradiction had offering you a formal apology, perhaps a job as Official Retconner in Charge of Fixing Plot Holes?

There was two decades between the films, shit is gonna change or get left out, but that does not mean you can come up with your own interpretation and call it canon.

same to you

Tangible God

Originally posted by Man of Christ
same to you Well put. I'll log that away for a time when I want something useless to say.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Man of Christ
a few responses

1) in lucas contradicting himself he negates his own obvious evidence in the films. lucas blaming the weak OT duels on jedi being out of practice is like O.J. saying he didnt kill his wife or dick cheney saying he didnt shoot that guy he was hunting with on purpose. lol

2) vader being mostly machine is a lame excuse because general grevous was mostly machine but he was incredibly mobile. HECK EVEN SUPER BATTLE DROIDS WHO ARE ALL MACHINE IN THE GEONOSIAN ARENA RAN MUCH FASTER THAN VADER EVER DID. so vader being machine should have actually made him faster than slower. which is another unanswered contradiction in the films.

3)Vader and Ben looked like they didnt even know how to hold thier lightsabers in anh, and that makes no since if siddious continually trained vader.

Vader's emotional attachment to luke had nothing to do with how slowly he dueled because when luke nicked his arm in esb he lost his temper and moved a little bit faster but nothing compared to rots. due strictly to coreography.

its due strictly to coreography because vader has actually been using his lightsaber to hunt down jedi in the books that bridge the trilogies but looked aweful in his duel.

heck graphics are so major that GL will probably even have to make an excuse for why vader's blade looked orange for a few seconds in ANH, what will he come up with next? a colour changing focusing crystal? lol

my point is, it is cgi and no in universe explanation can justify the speed diffrence adequately

...

Vader = A man in a suit. Grievous = a bio-droid. It's different stuff, dude. In RoDV, Vader muses about how the suit was poorly constructed and was more of a hindrance than a help- it gave him immense strength, but severely restricted his mobility and speed. There IS an in-universe explanation for it. Vader is a slow fighter- the EU comments on this as well.

Ben was an old man who was extremely out of practice and lacked the ability to use the force to overcome his physical limitations, like Sidious and Yoda who used it to give themselves speed- Dooku, meanwhile, was fit and was constantly practicting, unlike Obi-Wan.

Now then, do you understand? ROTJ. Luke. Is. Slower. Than. The. Jedi. In. The. PT. GL. Said. So. Deal. With. It

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
...

Vader = A man in a suit. Grievous = a bio-droid. It's different stuff, dude. In RoDV, Vader muses about how the suit was poorly constructed and was more of a hindrance than a help- it gave him immense strength, but severely restricted his mobility and speed. There IS an in-universe explanation for it. Vader is a slow fighter- the EU comments on this as well.

Ben was an old man who was extremely out of practice and lacked the ability to use the force to overcome his physical limitations, like Sidious and Yoda who used it to give themselves speed- Dooku, meanwhile, was fit and was constantly practicting, unlike Obi-Wan.

Now then, do you understand? ROTJ. Luke. Is. Slower. Than. The. Jedi. In. The. PT. GL. Said. So. Deal. With. It

1) substantiate: show me that vader quote in context

2)grevous is NOT A BIODROID but a kaleesh warrior recunstructed by count dooku, look it up.

if they had the technology to rebuild him in such a manner, they should have been able to do so to vader.

General( who was basically the star wars robocop) grevous had more parts replaced than vader but was still faster....yet another logical contradiction

3) understand they didnt have CGI back then, do you know what that means???? if they had it they would have used it but they didnt, you CANNOT rule special effects out and the gl explanations are inadequate

The Sociopath

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) substantiate: show me that vader quote in context

2)grevous is NOT A BIODROID but a kaleesh warrior recunstructed by count dooku, look it up.

Biodroid = Biological Droid. He's a Kaleesh encased in a Krath War Droid.

Grievous IS A BIODROID! Oh my!

Tangible God

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) substantiate: show me that vader quote in context

2)grevous is NOT A BIODROID but a kaleesh warrior recunstructed by count dooku, look it up.

if they had the technology to rebuild him in such a manner, they should have been able to do so to vader.

General( who was basically the star wars robocop) grevous had more parts replaced than vader but was still faster....yet another logical contradiction

3) understand they didnt have CGI back then, do you know what that means???? if they had it they would have used it but they didnt, you CANNOT rule special effects out and the gl explanations are inadequate If you were missing all of your limbs and was flambeed, only to be suited up in a giant walking lung with metal arms and legs... do you think you'd move as fast you would now?

Just to reiterate, vader was b*tching to himself on the poor make-up of his suit, he was also inwardly complaining about how Sidious had used him, but whatever.

IF----try to understand the operative word--------IF they had CGI in the 70's, YES, Vader would be like Grievous. But he's not! He's not like Grievous: a few organs, eyes and a brain encased into a metal body, he's still a torso and a head encased in a metal body. With no Jedi left to fight, why would Palpatine give his would-be-successor the means to overthrow him. Training as a Sith is fine, but so long as Vader remains substantially weaker (especially to electrolysis) and immobile, Palpatine' secure on his throne.

Ben and Yoda became old and out of shape, and Luke was ill-trained. Stop trying to rework the franchise in your own image.

Elite Hunter

Dude Vader was slower because they had to build the suit around the remaining parts of his body which was much more than Grievous had. If the emperor wanted Vader to be as fast as Grievous than he would lose even force potential and that would make him weaker. This is this basic star wars 101 here, not to hard to understand. As everyone said about a half doezen times now, Yoda and Obiwan didnt practice combat or try to get stronger in the force so they became weaker. If they tried to get stronger (specifically in the use of the force which can aid one physically in combat) then they ran the risk of the emperor sensing them and killing them before Luke even met them. So then the Sith could win before Luke even hits puberty.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Tangible God
If you were missing all of your limbs and was flambeed, only to be suited up in a giant walking lung with metal arms and legs... do you think you'd move as fast you would now?

Just to reiterate, vader was b*tching to himself on the poor make-up of his suit, he was also inwardly complaining about how Sidious had used him, but whatever.

IF----try to understand the operative word--------IF they had CGI in the 70's, YES, Vader would be like Grievous. But he's not! He's not like Grievous: a few organs, eyes and a brain encased into a metal body, he's still a torso and a head encased in a metal body. With no Jedi left to fight, why would Palpatine give his would-be-successor the means to overthrow him. Training as a Sith is fine, but so long as Vader remains substantially weaker (especially to electrolysis) and immobile, Palpatine' secure on his throne.

Ben and Yoda became old and out of shape, and Luke was ill-trained. Stop trying to rework the franchise in your own image.

i am not re working the franchise in my image i am simply pointing out the holes in the plot.

but lets take a logic walk if you will.
if palp wanted to use anakin and milk as much of him as possible then why not give him grevous like limbs.

essentially, palp and vader had killed most known force potentials. so if there is no garuntee of anyone replacing vader any time soon why not fortify vader

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by The Sociopath
If you're arguing (Generally, that is) that the OT and PT Jedis are the same speed, you're quite silly. You did watch Anakin VS Kenobi in ROTS, right? Or Kenobi/Anakin VS Dooku, right? Or Sidious VS Yoda, right? That's just one prequel movie, not counting the intense speed Kenobi had to throw down during his duel against Grievous. The fastest dueling I saw in the OT was when Luke hammered Vader down to his knees in ROTJ, and even that wasn't all that quick.

If you're just referring to Mace, I suggest you pay attention to the Clone Wars animated series or watch AOTC again. ROTS too, maybe?

no im not arguing that the OT duels were as good as the PT ones.. that would be stupid. but im arguing that if Mace wasnt that good in his moves "visually" and yet he defeated Sidious, then that is proof that you can not judge the OT duels simply by the way they look. and by the way, the ESB and ROTJ duels were quite fast paced and did look quite good. the choreography was decent, and all that was missing was CGI. which of course didnt exist in those days.

also if we are to judge them simply by the way they looked, then that means, Obi-Wan and Anakin do not fight with super human speed, as their fights were not speeded up.

I think you need to pay better attention to Mace in AOTC again. he did 2 leaps.. so what? are you forgetting Luke's incredibly fast leap in ESB. but apart from that, he did not look any faster or better than ESB and ROTJ Luke & Vader.

also u cant compare a cartoon to the films.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Man of Christ

if palp wanted to use anakin and milk as much of him as possible then why not give him grevous like limbs.

You have been told the reason why many times now. Grievous had no part of his outer body like a torso,arms and legs remaining from his original body, so he can be given droid parts that are capable of abilities that a human arm can not do. If Palpatine wanted vader to have arms like that then he would need to cut off his entire arm lowering his force potential/raw power even further and he would be less than 80% of Sidious.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
You have been told the reason why many times now. Grievous had no part of his outer body like a torso,arms and legs remaining from his original body, so he can be given droid parts that are capable of abilities that a human arm can not do. If Palpatine wanted vader to have arms like that then he would need to cut off his entire arm lowering his force potential/raw power even further and he would be less than 80% of Sidious.

please prove that????

what i am asking you to prove is that one needs to be missing more parts to get the better upgrade.
also anakin was a master technichan and engineer, but we dont see any of that in the OT, couldnt he have fixed his own legs.

also the argument that less body= less force potetial doesnt seem to make sense. for 2 reasons

anakin had a mechanical arm in rots but was WAY better than in aotc

yoda was very small but had massive FP.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) substantiate: show me that vader quote in context

First of all, in chapter 10 of Rise of Darth Vader, Vader is seen musing about the severe limitations of his armor- according to him, it severely hindered his ability, mobility, and slowed his reaction time, clearly resulting in lowering speed.

Vader wasn't about his speed- he was immensely strong. And while he might not have been exactly 'slow', he certainly wasn't fast. Therefore, faster duelists would completely destroy him in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
2)grevous is NOT A BIODROID but a kaleesh warrior recunstructed by count dooku, look it up.

Grievous is a droid with a 'human' conscience and organs. Vader is a severely crippled man in a suit. There's a massive difference between them.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
if they had the technology to rebuild him in such a manner, they should have been able to do so to vader.

No, no, no. If they had turned Vader into a bio-droid; sure, he could hold four lightsabers, but he would just be a droid. By Vader's own musings, Sidious intentionally put him in such a crippling suit, encouraging him to become stronger (and while not necessarily true, it's, once again, an indication of how much the suit hindered his mobility and speed). Vader needed to be able to use the force; that's why Sidious selected him in the first place.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
General( who was basically the star wars robocop) grevous had more parts replaced than vader but was still faster....yet another logical contradiction

Fail logic. More Machine =/= slower. On the contrary; Vader was flesh and blood inside a heavy, clumsy suit while Grievous was almost entirely a droid, so he could utilize his reflexes, and agility to the max, while Vader had to overcome the limitations posed by the bulk of his armor; Grievous' droid parts IS Grievous' body. Vader's armor is a life-support system keeping the flesh and blood part of him alive.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
3) understand they didnt have CGI back then, do you know what that means???? if they had it they would have used it but they didnt, you CANNOT rule special effects out and the gl explanations are inadequate

Sure, if they had CGI then, the fights might've better. But you know what? They weren't. So GL used an excuse to tell us why the fights in the PT better (your version). But guess what? Anything GL says is canon. You CANNOT argue against it.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
First of all, in chapter 10 of Rise of Darth Vader, Vader is seen musing about the severe limitations of his armor- according to him, it severely hindered his ability, mobility, and slowed his reaction time, clearly resulting in lowering speed.

Vader wasn't about his speed- he was immensely strong. And while he might not have been exactly 'slow', he certainly wasn't fast. Therefore, faster duelists would completely destroy him in lightsaber combat.

Grievous is a droid with a 'human' conscience and organs. Vader is a severely crippled man in a suit. There's a massive difference between them.

No, no, no. If they had turned Vader into a bio-droid; sure, he could hold four lightsabers, but he would just be a droid. By Vader's own musings, Sidious intentionally put him in such a crippling suit, encouraging him to become stronger (and while not necessarily true, it's, once again, an indication of how much the suit hindered his mobility and speed). Vader needed to be able to use the force; that's why Sidious selected him in the first place.

Fail logic. More Machine =/= slower. On the contrary; Vader was flesh and blood inside a heavy, clumsy suit while Grievous was almost entirely a droid, so he could utilize his reflexes, and agility to the max, while Vader had to overcome the limitations posed by the bulk of his armor; Grievous' droid parts IS Grievous' body. Vader's armor is a life-support system keeping the flesh and blood part of him alive.

Sure, if they had CGI then, the fights might've better. But you know what? They weren't. So GL used an excuse to tell us why the fights in the PT better (your version). But guess what? Anything GL says is canon. You CANNOT argue against it.

1) grevous is a cyborg not a dorid, ever heard of a kaleesh???

2) they could have given hima better suit that maintained his FP

3)why accept galring contradictions as cannon?????????? Gl is not perfect and makes mistakes, so not even his words are infallable when he contradicts himself.

like why didnt ben recognize c3p0 and r2d2?
when vader dueled ben he looked like a scared 5 year old and looked like he forgot djem so........
ben was supposed to be a soresu master but we see him stabbing at vader in thier duel which is not something a soresu duelist would do.
the clones' masks look completely diffrent.
i think GL destroyed his own sense of continuity when he chose to be like sophocles who produced antigone before producing oedipus rex.
technologically its like they went foward into the dark ages.

I know i have said a lot but my conclusion is this WE CANNOT judge how good the ot characters are by how they look in movies. because if we did, then aotc anakin would murder his anh self but we know this clearly isnt the case

Gideon

Death Star confirmed that the mechanized supplements for Vader's suit were old as **** (being around since Grievous's own), but Vader's accident was not premeditated or orchestrated and a lot more of him survived than Grievous , thus he was ham strung by circumstances and was forced to basically grab whatever shit he could before Vader died from his injuries. The book also confirmed that to be released from his suit at all would result in death, so "like it or not, he and the suit were bonded forever".

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) grevous is a cyborg not a dorid, ever heard of a kaleesh???

2) they could have given hima better suit that maintained his FP

3)why accept galring contradictions as cannon?????????? Gl is not perfect and makes mistakes, so not even his words are infallable when he contradicts himself.

like why didnt ben recognize c3p0 and r2d2?
when vader dueled ben he looked like a scared 5 year old and looked like he forgot djem so........
ben was supposed to be a soresu master but we see him stabbing at vader in thier duel which is not something a soresu duelist would do.
the clones' masks look completely diffrent.
i think GL destroyed his own sense of continuity when he chose to be like sophocles who produced antigone before producing oedipus rex.
technologically its like they went foward into the dark ages.

I know i have said a lot but my conclusion is this WE CANNOT judge how good the ot characters are by how they look in movies. because if we did, then aotc anakin would murder his anh self but we know this clearly isnt the case

No.

There isn't a 'better suit'- unless, of course, Vader was correct and Sidious intentionally put him in a suit to force him to overcome his own limitations. As he muses to himself in the RODV, the barrier on his power was mainly his damaged psyche rather than his injuries- and somehow, due to some twisted reason, forcing him to 'overcome' himself might cause him to regain his former power.

Right then. General Grievous and Vader are both, by definition, cyborgs, due to the fact that they are partially organic and partially machine- however, Grievous, due to the fact that his body was primarily droid and the only organic pieces he had were a few internal organs, a brain, and eyes- he's even called a 'bio-droid' several times by the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel. Meanwhile, you have Vader, who is a damaged man in a suit. He's not mostly a droid, unlike Grievous, otherwise he would've been incapable of utilizing the force; as you see, there's an extreme difference between Grievous and Vader. If the two were to fight, Grievous would probably come out on top in the saber category- but in the force and all out? Vader would destroy him. Sidious wanted a Sith, not a droid, for an apprentice.

Right then. There are several 'plausible' explanations as to why Ben didn't recognize R2 and 3PO; he could've forgotten, or he could've been playing like he didn't remember. Dude, I could dismiss everything GL said as a 'mistake' if I wanted to- but anything said by him is CANON. The highest canon. More canon than you.

Also, if you want to, give me quotes of Luke's and Vader's "Uber speed!!!11!!" in the novels, so we can compare them to the depictions of Sidious, Yoda, Obi-Wan, RotS Anakin and the likes fighting.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
No.

There isn't a 'better suit'- unless, of course, Vader was correct and Sidious intentionally put him in a suit to force him to overcome his own limitations. As he muses to himself in the RODV, the barrier on his power was mainly his damaged psyche rather than his injuries- and somehow, due to some twisted reason, forcing him to 'overcome' himself might cause him to regain his former power.

Right then. General Grievous and Vader are both, by definition, cyborgs, due to the fact that they are partially organic and partially machine- however, Grievous, due to the fact that his body was primarily droid and the only organic pieces he had were a few internal organs, a brain, and eyes- he's even called a 'bio-droid' several times by the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel. Meanwhile, you have Vader, who is a damaged man in a suit. He's not mostly a droid, unlike Grievous, otherwise he would've been incapable of utilizing the force; as you see, there's an extreme difference between Grievous and Vader. If the two were to fight, Grievous would probably come out on top in the saber category- but in the force and all out? Vader would destroy him. Sidious wanted a Sith, not a droid, for an apprentice.

Right then. There are several 'plausible' explanations as to why Ben didn't recognize R2 and 3PO; he could've forgotten, or he could've been playing like he didn't remember. Dude, I could dismiss everything GL said as a 'mistake' if I wanted to- but anything said by him is CANON. The highest canon. More canon than you.

Also, if you want to, give me quotes of Luke's and Vader's "Uber speed!!!11!!" in the novels, so we can compare them to the depictions of Sidious, Yoda, Obi-Wan, RotS Anakin and the likes fighting.

afraid to think to analyze falacies for yourself?

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Man of Christ
please prove that????

what i am asking you to prove is that one needs to be missing more parts to get the better upgrade.

Look at Grievous and Vader and compare their sideborg bodies. if Sidious wanted Anakin to lose more potential than he could have given him the Grievous treatment but then he traded in Dooku for a much weaker apprentice especially in the force.

There isn't much to fix since much of his legs were burnt in ROTS and that also means he lost alot of the muscles(ex quads) in his legs that help him move, the robotic parts were inside the suit( i also doubt how much he could physically enhance his legs) and he doesn't take that part off.

To you maybe, its not the body size but the fact that you have your whole body and no robotic parts and remember medichlorians.

He only lost his hand then and he had much better force mastery and his lightsaber skills also improved obviously.

"Size not matters"
This is SW 101 here, I got to say I thought you atleast understood that.

Gideon

"BIGGER BODIEZ = BETTER FORCE POTENTIAL!!1!" was never the contention, Man of Christ, thus your comparison with Yoda fails; though I must say that Elite Hunter didn't do an awe inspiring job of explaining it (I find the "size matters not" explanation to be a little misplaced). The argument itself is supported by Lumiya, former Emperor's Hand and self-proclaimed Dark Lady of the Sith, and she instructed Jacen Solo that neither Darth Vader nor herself could ever truly become "a master" because the Force requires a "living body" to handle its demands; both herself and Vader were mechanical. Darth Sidious disagrees and George Lucas seems to straddle both of the arguments. Your misdirection of Yoda being abnormally small and yet having (presumably) the second highest recorded midichlorian count doesn't conflict with either argument; Lumiya's contention was that you needed your whole body to achieve full potential, not more biomass.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Gideon
Death Star confirmed that the mechanized supplements for Vader's suit were old as **** (being around since Grievous's own), but Vader's accident was not premeditated or orchestrated and a lot more of him survived than Grievous , thus he was ham strung by circumstances and was forced to basically grab whatever shit he could before Vader died from his injuries. The book also confirmed that to be released from his suit at all would result in death, so "like it or not, he and the suit were bonded forever".

could he not even take the suit off in his pressurised chamber??

Gideon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
could he not even take the suit off in his pressurised chamber??

What are the odds that the two of us would post simultaneously? I can only hope my brilliant paragraph is not overlooked because you got the most recent post...

As to your question: apparently not. The omniscient narrator dictates that if Vader were excised from the suit at all, he would die.

chilled monkey

Originally posted by Man of Christ
afraid to think to analyze falacies for yourself?

Let me ask you something:

Do you think that you know more about Star Wars than George Lucas? Are you saying that your views are more valid than the person who created the entire Star Wars franchise?

Is that what you are saying?

Gideon

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Let me ask you something:

Do you think that you know more about Star Wars than George Lucas? Are you saying that your views are more valid than the person who created the entire Star Wars franchise?

Is that what you are saying?

With respect to George Lucas and respect to his position on the saga , it's plain as day that there are times when the man has no ****ing clue as to what he's talking about. He contradicts himself on numerous occasions (i.e. "LOLZ IT WAS ALWAYS ANAKIN'S STORY!!1!," "THERE WERE ALWAYS GONNA BE 6 MOVIES!!1!," "DARTH VADER IS WEAK AS SHIT, PATHETIC," "DARTH VADER IS EIGHTY PERCENT OF MY REALLY POWERFUL SITH LORD MAIN VILLAIN," wink

. After he runs his mouth and goes back to his zillion dollar ranch and counts his money, Leland Chee is sitting at his desk 'til 1 am going "...shit." -- because he has to take piles and piles of crap and make Michelangelo-class sculptures out of it.

I feel so sorry for that dude.

Lt. Valerian

And, unfortunately, it is not only George Lucas who we're talking about here. Many others, authors, game designers, etc. alike, who worked or are working on Star Wars projects at the moment, have no clue as to what they created or are creating, and only care for the game, the book or the their characters to be good (in the character's case, powerful) even going as far as sometimes contradicting higher authority or making a character more powerful than he/she is supposed to be. These people, who cannot actually see the Star Wars Universe with a deep, intelligent view, are the ones ruining it, as a whole.

Great examples for this would be people such as Karen Traviss or Haden Blackman, who have absolutely no clue about what they are writing or making, and who simply make their characters immensely more powerful than what they should actually be (i.e. Boba Fett & Starkiller).

Gideon

To truly compare Blackman to Traviss at this point would be unnecessary and illogical; Traviss has repeatedly spat on not only canon but logic in general, Blackman is unleashing the greatest multimedia project since Shadows of the Empire and it seems to be giving Lucas an erection, so one can assume that it is no worse than any other direct Lucas-approved projects. It's already established that Vader and Palpatine > Starkiller anyways. So, while Blackman has potential for abuse in the latitude that he has been given, nothing and no one can compare to Traviss.