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I had a discussion with someone I worked with a few years ago about this and it's recently resurfaced in my mind. Does the mere existence of superheroes provoke the existence of the very villains they fight?

It came about one night back when I use to work 2nd shift at and old job and basically had no life out side work and had come to find a new coworker that shared my love for comics. We were almost always put into pairs at that job so I began trying to get paired with him as much as possible just so I could have someone to talk comics with and pass the time quicker.

Anyway one night we got on the subject of what it would really be like if superheroes started to exist in the real world. He submitted to me that it would mainly cause the reaction of villains regardless of their gaining powers by chance as well. At first I thought the mere existence of heroes wouldn't cause villains to rise but he actually provided quite the convincing argument.

See he claimed that as long as we had people with powers their would be individuals or even entire groups out to end them or control them out of everything form jealously to greed, to hate to even admiration. And even the ones that didn't have powers would have the same problem with jealously and people believing the need to be taught lessons and ones that think in testing them they are contributing to their level of skill. Regardless of the people caught in the crossfire.

I wish I could remember all the points he'd made that night because they were mostly all very valid and he had many more. Unfortunately it's been about 2 or 3 years since I've even seen him and my memory just isn't that good.

Anyway my question to you is the same as our old discussion was.

Does just the existence of superheroes eventually cause the reaction of super villains? Or would it our world?

Sometimes yes.

I do agree with the points you pointed out. There will always be greedy people trying to gain control of those more powerful.

Originally posted by Entity
Does the mere existence of superheroes provoke the existence of the very villains they fight?

Anyway one night we got on the subject of what it would really be like if superheroes started to exist in the real world. He submitted to me that it would mainly cause the reaction of villains regardless of their gaining powers by chance as well. At first I thought the mere existence of heroes wouldn't cause villains to rise but he actually provided quite the convincing argument.

See he claimed that as long as we had people with powers their would be individuals or even entire groups out to end them or control them out of everything form jealously to greed, to hate to even admiration. And even the ones that didn't have powers would have the same problem with jealously and people believing the need to be taught lessons and ones that think in testing them they are contributing to their level of skill.

First of all: No, I don't think "the mere existence of superheroes provoke the existence of the very villains they fight." At least, not necessarily. It would depend on circumstances, and overall very iffy ones, I suspect.

Secondly, what would it "really be like if superheroes started to exist in the real world"? Almost certainly (as you touched on), national governments would take extreme interest, treating them as subjects to be hunted, controlled, studied, dissected, whatever, to learn the how and why of their powers, for potential use against other governments, at the very least to protect "national security."

In a nutshell, if I understand it correctly, Cadmus would be a realistic response to the presence of genuine superhumans.

Originally posted by Entity
Does the mere existence of superheroes provoke the existence of the very villains they fight? Beside the fact that comics wouldn't be very interesting if they just showcased heroes running around, with no reason to proverbially 'save the day' .

Another way to look at it is Newton's Third Law: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." - the creation of heroes would naturally beget the creation of villains.

Or some shit. ermm

It's never JUST the hero.

You just watched Batman Begins, didn't you?

Nope.

It's still never JUST the hero.

No.

Superheroes do not create Super villains.

In order to keep the Universe in balance. Both the forces of good and evil have to ying yang the universal scale.

In this case, one force goes first and then the other goes next. They take turns...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
You just watched Batman Begins, didn't you?



That's the same thing I was thinking.

Valid point made by the film though. If you're of the criminal persuasion and suddenly some guy with supernormal abilities starts busting up crimes, you're naturally going to react through heavier firepower or larger numbers ... or something.

So yes, in one degree, the existence of super vigilantes would definitely cause the criminal element to become more dangerous.

Originally posted by Galan007
Another way to look at it is Newton's Third Law: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." - the creation of heroes would naturally beget the creation of villains. See thats one of the points I was thinking of.

And no I hadn't watched Batman Begins lately but Gordon's statement pretty much sums up the point in a nutshell. I think The Dark Knight will do a really good job at proving that point too.

btw, my favorite teaser for The Dark Knight so far has been Bruce saying, "I see now what I have to become to stop men like that!"

Originally posted by Entity
btw, my favorite teaser for The Dark Knight so far has been Bruce saying, "I see now what I have to become to stop men like that!" Whomever wrote that line has a deep understanding of the good/evil rationale.

No, people create heroes and villains. While it is possible for a series of events started by a superhero to create a supervillain it is not inevitable. Within our world it simply isn't possible because no one has a way to become a supervillain. In comics, even leaving the writers aside, the existence of a super of some sort will create a villain due to the availability of powers (at the very least an aspiring super can go buy ultratech weapons) so anyone inspired to villainy by a hero can take that to the level of a super.

Meh... I think the criminal creates the hero far more than the reverse.

True, Joker might not exist without Batman... but Batman's Batman because he wants to fight the criminals in Gotham.

Criminals, unless they're out for revenge against a specific hero, are going to exist regardless of the presence of heroes because they'll still want the money from that bank vault.

Heroes, though, without the criminals, are useless.

So, to answer the question... no. It's the reverse, IMO.

no cause regardless if there's a hero or not its just how a person's personality is some people want to save the world and some people just want see it burn down

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
Meh... I think the criminal creates the hero far more than the reverse.

True, Joker might not exist without Batman... but Batman's Batman because he wants to fight the criminals in Gotham.

Criminals, unless they're out for revenge against a specific hero, are going to exist regardless of the presence of heroes because they'll still want the money from that bank vault.

Heroes, though, without the criminals, are useless.

So, to answer the question... no. It's the reverse, IMO.

pretty much how i see it too, in alot of cases...

Originally posted by Galan007
Whomever wrote that line has a deep understanding of the good/evil rationale.

I feel that Batman says that line as a reaction to Harvey Dent becoming a murderous vigilante.

I'm not sure how I feel about changing two-face into a bad-good guy, rather than just a straight up bad guy...

I mean, it provides a great foil for Bale. Showing their different methods of vigilantism.

But then again, you lose the classic two-face. Meh.

Anyways, in a 'real world' scenario, I would say absolutely not.

There are two scenarios we have to discuss.

1. There is one super hero. Everyone else is normal and real-world.

-and-

2. The real world becomes very much comic like. Every third grade science experiment and industrial accident gives people super powers left and right.

In the first scenario, the only people with enough resources or power to pose a 'super-villain' threat to the hero would be governments. And they'd certainly have a vested interest in the super hero, but it'd be more a SHIELD or CADMUS interaction than straight up villainy.

In , some of those blessed with powers would use their powers for 'evil' regardless of whether super heroes were present or not. However, I definitely do not think that the presence of super heroes would make more of them go 'bad.' In fact, the mere presence of super heroes would act as a deterrent for most of those who would take a half-assed approach to it.

It comes down to two factors; probability and morality.

Chances are if one superhuman pops up, there is a greater chance of another popping up (that's the technical term ) and so forth. Depending on their actions and moral standing depends on how you would define them as a hero/villain.

Your friend's argument seems to imply that it's not the heroes that would create the villains, but the existence of superhuman powers in the first place

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
No.

Superheroes do not create Super villains.

In order to keep the Universe in balance. Both the forces of good and evil have to ying yang the universal scale.

In this case, one force goes first and then the other goes next. They take turns...

The idea that the Joker came into being because of his crimefighting career - I think Batman gets sick to his soul.