Revan and Malak vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan

HomoSuperior

Revan and Malak.

They both smash Anakin and Obi-Wan in developed Force power, which has generally been the real determining factor when it comes to lightsaber combat throughout the EU (and what Yoda and Kas'im, arguably the two most experienced lightsaber users within the entire mythos, considered to be the case), and they were both considered lightsaber prodigies within their order, and had the war experience to hone that level of talent. While I won't deny Anakin or Obi-Wan's lightsaber prowess, at the end of the day, neither of them was a Kas'im or Ulic Quel-Droma; by Obi-Wan's own admission, he was only truly proficient with Soresu, and it's likely that the same was the case with Anakin and his proficiency of Djem So (at least as far we know). They were both obviously extremely good with their single form of combat, but that's still just a single form of combat; neither were well mastered with multiple forms (such as Kas'im, Darth Maul, Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba or ), neither ever displayed a truly extraordinary grasp of the lightsaber (such as Ulic's display in Redemption, or Kyle Katarn's or Nomi's masterful displays before they'd received any real training with the weapon, or Mace Windu and Exar Kun's ingenuity in creating/furthering a lightsaber form, or Bane's learning ability as displayed when he was able to perfectly memorise millions of moves and combinations in little over a year), and neither have received mad amounts of experience and/or training like others have before or after them (examples: Vodo Siosk-Bass, and Yoda). The fact of the matter is that while extremely well versed in lightsaber combat, they weren't exactly what you'd call Lightsaber Gods, and given both Revan and Malak's prodigy statuses as well as their extreme war experience (and by extension, honed skills), I truly don't see how the margin would be anything other than narrow.

Revan and Malak, due to smashing the Jedi duo in what is logically the real determining factor, and logically at least being able to compete in the other real category that matters: lightsaber technique, win this hands down.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Revan and Malak.

They both smash Anakin and Obi-Wan in developed Force power, which has generally been the real determining factor when it comes to lightsaber combat throughout the EU (and what Yoda and Kas'im, arguably the two most experienced lightsaber users within the entire mythos, considered to be the case), and they were both considered lightsaber prodigies within their order, and had the war experience to hone that level of talent. While I won't deny Anakin or Obi-Wan's lightsaber prowess, at the end of the day, neither of them was a Kas'im or Ulic Quel-Droma; by Obi-Wan's own admission, he was only truly proficient with Soresu, and it's likely that the same was the case with Anakin and his proficiency of Djem So (at least as far we know). They were both obviously extremely good with their single form of combat, but that's still just a single form of combat; neither were well mastered with multiple forms (such as Kas'im, Darth Maul, Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba or ), neither ever displayed a truly extraordinary grasp of the lightsaber (such as Ulic's display in Redemption, or Kyle Katarn's or Nomi's masterful displays before they'd received any real training with the weapon, or Mace Windu and Exar Kun's ingenuity in creating/furthering a lightsaber form, or Bane's learning ability as displayed when he was able to perfectly memorise millions of moves and combinations in little over a year), and neither have received mad amounts of experience and/or training like others have before or after them (examples: Vodo Siosk-Bass, and Yoda). The fact of the matter is that while extremely well versed in lightsaber combat, they weren't exactly what you'd call Lightsaber Gods, and given both Revan and Malak's prodigy statuses as well as their extreme war experience (and by extension, honed skills), I truly don't see how the margin would be anything other than narrow.

Revan and Malak, due to smashing the Jedi duo in what is logically the real determining factor, and logically at least being able to compete in the other real category that matters: lightsaber technique, win this hands down.

Your blatant hatred for anything PT aside, how the HELL could you assume that Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't have a 'truly extraordinary grasp of the lightsaber'?

While I could certainly understand Revan and Malak being above Obi-Wan in terms of their force ability and attunement, but above ANAKIN SKYWALKER? I'll give you an example when 'raw power' triumphs over developed force power; Bane vs. Kas'im, for example- when Bane, despite being far, far below Kas'im in terms of refinement, mastery, and combat knowledge, was capable of temporarily gaining the upper hand due to his vastly superior attunement to the force. The same would apply to Anakin, only on an even greater basis- aside from your logic of "Malak and Revan were war veterans ergo they have better developed force power!", nothing points to Malak (Revan is displayed to be rather knowledgable and masterful) being particularly high up in the 'developed force power' scale, while Anakin had the highest raw power in history. This came into play when during his fight with Dooku, when he achieved his "In teh zone" state of mind, he was capable of smashing Dooku, someone who certainly had an extremely large amount of time to refine himself in his form of choice and was also proven to have knowledge of all 7 forms, to pieces through his raw power, strength, and aggression alone- throughout the entire fight, he only gained energy, becoming what you might call a 'force wrecking ball'. In terms of force attunement? Anakin absolutely curbstomps Revan and Malak. And his technical knowledge, displayed by him, once again, being- by Dooku's own admission- the best Djem So user he had ever seen in his considerable time as a Lightsaber Instructor at the Jedi Temple.

With Obi-Wan, you might have more of a case, but the fact of the matter is that Obi-Wan was, too, capable of absolutely shocking Dooku with his prowess in Soresu- in the RotS novel, he is depicted multiple times to become 'one with the force', and to let it completely control him to the point that it might have been the lightsaber doing the whole work, guided entirely by the force- clearly, the way he uses the force in lightsaber combat is more than formidable, and he is certainly not lacking in that aspect.

Obi-Wan's 'own admission' stems from him having a rather low opinion of his skills and having extreme modesty; you also have the fact that in TPM, he used Ataru to a degree sufficient to hold his own against Darth friggin' Maul. He was also capable of completely duping Dooku, despite Obi-Wan's reputation, into thinking that he used Shii-Cho and Ataru. He has knowledge of more than one form- and his skill with Soresu is sufficient to make Mace Windu- a master of all seven forms, and a normally stern person who doesn't give compliments acknowledge his prowess with Soresu that he actually implied that he sees Obi-Wan as a greater swordsman than himself. Obi-Wan was also capable of contending with 20 strikes per second from Grievous, who could WTFpwn several Jedi at once.

As for 'war experience'? Obi-Wan was older than both Revan and Malak, and participated in numerous large-scale conflicts, including being one of the most famous participants of the Clone Wars, as was Anakin.

HomoSuperior

I don't have time to get to all of that right now, so I'll just explain what I meant by my comment on their lightsaber technique. You can reply if you wish, or you can wait until I get to the rest, I'm going to allow you the luxury of choice.

Now, as I was saying, while their technique is pretty impressive, when you compare them to the likes of beings who have mastered multiple lightsaber forms (Kas'im, and all the Form VII Masters, off the top of my head), have displayed insane learning rates with the weapon (Darth Bane, and Sirak, who apparently learnt the different moves and sequences faster than any of the other apprentices, including Bane), have wielded the weapon with the skill of a Master the very first time they picked it up (Nomi Sunrider), have been able to compete with powerful and well trained Force Users in lightsaber combat with no training with the weapon whatsoever (Kyle Katarn), were able to create or further lightsaber forms and/or lightsaber techniques (Sora Bulq, Exar Kun, and Mace Windu), were madly dedicated to honing their skills (Kas'im), possessed literally centuries of training and experience (Yoda, and Vodo Siosk-Bass), were able to compete with powerful dark side driven Jedi whilst ten years out of practise, cut off from the Force and physically out of shape (Ulic Qel-Droma), or were declared some of the greatest swordsmen ever (Kas'im, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, Kit Fisto and Tulak Hord) they really haven't displayed that great a level of lightsaber prowess (Damn, that was a long sentence). Sure, they were very good with their chosen lightsaber form, good for them, but it's not indicative of truly great ability in the grand scheme of things, and it certainly doesn't put them miles beyond renowned prodigies who have been able to hone their skills through the conflict of war (also, don't presume that I was trying to compare Revan and Malak's war experience to Anakin or Obi-Wan's, because I wasn't, I was simply pointing out that their given talent had obviously been realised to quite an extent given their battle experience).

Darth Sexy

Revan and Malak were the two best lightsaber duelists in the galaxy at their time. However, very little is known about their lightsaber abilities regardless of their praises.

Chick Magnet

Nebs...Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader STATES that Vader was a master of ALL known forms of combat. There goes your "argument"...

HomoSuperior

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
While I could certainly understand Revan and Malak being above Obi-Wan in terms of their force ability and attunement, but above ANAKIN SKYWALKER?

1. Calm it with the CAPLOCKS.

2. You... do realise that Anakin Skywalker was only able to stalemate the mentioned Obi-Wan in a Force contest, yes? Really, the emphasis used to separate the two is completely unjustified and illogical, as they were virtual equals in Force power at the time in question (assuming that this is the RotS duo).

Apparently you don't know what you're talking about.

Raw power is completely worthless when speaking in present terms. It's power that has yet to be developed; potential that has yet to be tapped. In the above example, Bane was able to overcome Kas'im to such a degree because of his developed power, not because of his untapped potential.

...

This is, no joke, one of the most absurd Strawmans I've ever come across.

I already explained the point I was making earlier, and it was that both Malak and Revan were highly renowned for being extremely talented lightsaber practitioners within their Order, and that they'd both had the opportunity to hone that kind of talent through the extreme battle experience that the Mandalorian Wars offered.

He was capable of Force dominating trained Jedi with ease, that alone puts his power on a level far above Anakin or Obi-Wan who haven't displayed anything truly impressive.

Yes, raw power. Completely worthless until you manage to substantiate how much of it had been tapped, given he hadn't even progressed beyond the level of Obi-Wan.

1. Now why do I get the feeling that you've been spending mad hours at the search buttons?

2. The novelisation fight scene is completely contradictory to the movie. It displays completely different sets of actions to the movie's complete version, and described the fight as being pretty one sided in the Jedi duo's favour when the movie clearly shows the opposite. "In the zone" Anakin is a product of invalid N-Canon material, and that's all.

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41

1. "So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test."

So here we have Palpatine telling Dooku that he would stop the fight if Anakin managed to be in a position to kill him. In other words, he was fighting without the need of self preservation, an enormous disadvantage, in the sense that he wasn't quite fighting for his life, and thus wasn't quite pushing himself as hard as he otherwise would have.

2. "If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready."

So here we have Palpatine essentially forbidding him from mortally harming Anakin, saying that if he wasn't quite ready, they'd let him go. An even bigger disadvantage, in the sense that he was limiting exactly what he could do by actively holding himself back from going for a killing blow.

So even if Anakin did "smash him," (completely subjective, with the exception of the novelisation, which in N-Canon in that respect anyway) he was only capable of doing it under extremely advantageous circumstances.

1. Again, novelisation Dooku/Anakin fightscene = N-Canon, much like Nick Gillard, Ian McDiamond, and the RotS novelisation fight scene that had Palpatine appear a blur to the eyes of Anakin.

2. Where is it said or shown that Dooku has knowledge of all seven forms of lightsaber combat? A member named Quinlan Vos tried to prove as much a while back, and he failed miserably.

3. Again, I'm not denying Anakin's (or Obi-Wan's) technical ability, and I'm fully open to the possibility that it's superior to either Malak's or Revan's. What I am saying, however, is it's nothing truly special in the grand scheme of things, and certainly not miles beyond Revan and Malak's war hardened prodigy statuses. As I've been saying, according to the two beings in Star Wars who are likely the biggest authorities on the matter, Yoda and Kas'im, developed Force Power and Mastery are by far the most important factor when it comes to saber combat, and given that the weaker of the Sith duo, Malak, has displayed a level of Force ability that would put him far above either of the Jedi duo on the matter, Anakin and Obi-Wan would have to be significantly better with their saber technique to be able to compete, in fact, even better than the Sith are to them with the Force given it's the less significant factor, and nothing suggests that they are. Perhaps if they had mastered more forms, or had a much greater level of training and experience, but sadly, they don't.

4. Dooku's thoughts on the duo's saber ability, again, is the product of very much invalid N-Canon material.

HomoSuperior

Jedi Masters are almost always described in such a way. Substantiate what it means for Obi-Wan, and prove that it puts him on a high enough level in saber ability to bridge the gap created by Revan and Malak's significant superiority in force ability, or drop the point.

While that's very much true, there's a limit to the effect modesty has on a person's self belief; at the end of the day, if he truly was very proficient with anything other than Soresu, he wouldn't have been completely oblivious to such a fact.

Exactly. At the time of TPM. He completely abandoned the form after recognising its defencive weaknesses, and it's likely after about ten years that he was no longer very proficient with it. His words do indicate as much after all.

Have you even read the novel? Both he and Anakin had planned to fool Dooku into believing that they were no threat to him whatsoever, to put him into a false sense of security, and then catch him off guard by using their actual practised lightsaber forms. All that Obi-Wan did was dupe Dooku into believing that he was a very poor practitioner of those forms, which last time I checked, only demanded a poor level of ability with said forms in the first place.

Not that it matters, as the novel, in that segment of it, is completely N-Canon.

I didn't deny as much, but it's an insignificant point, and does little to raise his saber profile. As I was saying, he would have to be a good notch above Revan or Malak is lightsaber ability to be able to compete with their level of Force enhanced abilities, and being a very high level Master with one form, as well as having an extremely poor level of ability with a couple of others doesn't quite have that effect. You'd have to be an Ulic Qel-Droma, or Kas'im, to be a good notch or two above a battle hardened lightsaber prodigy.

Again, good for Obi-Wan, but he would have to be a good league above Malak or Obi-Wan in lightsaber technique to be able to compete with them, given how they themselves were at least a league above him in what's logically a far more significant factor. Being a lightsaber prodigy already puts you at a pretty high level, which both Malak and Revan were, and to be a good level above that would require an extraordinary level of ability in the grand scheme of things; as I was saying, limited to their chosen lightsaber form, and time period, they were great. In the grand scheme of things, or beyond their chosen lightsaber form? Not so much.

No, 16 strikes per second was the most he could contend with, and 20 strikes a second was described as "overloading" his defences. You'll see it's all there to be found in the novelisation, if you ever bother to read it.

Again, the point I was making was that Revan and Malak weren't exactly very talented padawans with lightsabers, but very talented practitioners of the weapons that had honed their ability through the art of war. To actually be of prodigy status, and to have actually received battle experience puts them at a very high level, and Anakin and Obi-Wan's exceptional ability would have to progress beyond their time or chosen form of combat to be considered a good notch above Revan or Malak's level of ability.

HomoSuperior

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Nebs...Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader STATES that Vader was a master of ALL known forms of combat. There goes your "argument"...

Could you provide the passage surrounding the statement and the page number so I can form my own interpretation because that sounds pretty damn farfetched. Also, what exact point in time was the statement made at, and explain how it amounts to anything more than meaningless hyperbole, because the idea that he had mastered all known forms of combat in his short lifetime seems impossibly unlikely.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
1. Calm it with the CAPLOCKS.

Make me.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
2. You... do realise that Anakin Skywalker was only able to stalemate the mentioned Obi-Wan in a Force contest, yes? Really, the emphasis used to separate the two is completely unjustified and illogical, as they were virtual equals in Force power at the time in question (assuming that this is the RotS duo).

I cannot understand how you think that they were virtually equal in a force contest when Anakin had the greatest raw power out of any force user in history. Although Anakin's lack of mastery affected his force push to the extent that Obi-Wan- through far superior mastery- was capable of stalemating him. Here are quotes to support it:

"Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado."- This is an example of how much- from Dooku's point of view- Anakin's insane power allowed him to become more powerful, allowing him to 'explode', in a sense, in combat.

"The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground."- As you can see, Anakin's immense strength was capable of completely outclassing Dooku, making him barely even able to hold his lightsaber against Anakin's onslaught.

"Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered."- And, once again, you have how Anakin's raw power, stamina, strength, and reserve of force energy allowed him to completely astonish and catch Dooku off-guard- indeed, it made him incapable of even attempting a counter-strike.

"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger."- Anakin only grew stronger during the onslaught, and his power was described as 'unstoppable'- this is, once again, depicting percisely how Anakin became a 'force wrecking ball' and completely destroyed Dooku.

Later, the fight depicts how Anakin shocked Dooku, with Dooku becoming truly afraid to cause the 'furnace to go supercritical'.

As you can see, Anakin's raw power is clearly a factor in his fights- it completely dominated Dooku's VASTLY superior developed skill. A skill that, indeed, beats the shit out of Kas'im's own.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Apparently you don't know what you're talking about.

Raw power is completely worthless when speaking in present terms. It's power that has yet to be developed; potential that has yet to be tapped. In the above example, Bane was able to overcome Kas'im to such a degree because of his developed power, not because of his untapped potential.

I've just displayed how it is, with the likes of Anakin, a deciding factor in a fight that allowed him to overcome the unimaginably more refined Dooku. Point is moot.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
I already explained the point I was making earlier, and it was that both Malak and Revan were highly renowned for being extremely talented lightsaber practitioners within their Order, and that they'd both had the opportunity to hone that kind of talent through the extreme battle experience that the Mandalorian Wars offered.

Right then. Malak's and Revan's 'high renown' (could you please provide the quotes detaling their 'uber rep!!111!!') is blown to pieces by Obi-Wan's and Anakin's renown by vastly more skilled and powerful people (such as Mace), and their war experience just as easily matches the Mandalorian Wars. In addition- unlike Revan and Malak- they received considerably more experience in dueling against other people wielding lightsabers, such as their numerous confrontations with Asajj Ventress, Dooku, and their fights with Grievous, Maul, etc... the list goes on. Give me a single formidable force-sensitive foe who Malak and Revan defeated and is even close to the level of Maul, Grievous, Dooku, and the likes.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
He was capable of Force dominating trained Jedi with ease, that alone puts his power on a level far above Anakin or Obi-Wan who haven't displayed anything truly impressive.

Certainly, Malak might have a better mastery of the force than the duo- but it is negated by Anakin's incredible raw power, which, as I have displayed, does indeed come into play in combat.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
1. Now why do I get the feeling that you've been spending mad hours at the search buttons?

Because you're delusional?

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
2. The novelisation fight scene is completely contradictory to the movie. It displays completely different sets of actions to the movie's complete version, and described the fight as being pretty one sided in the Jedi duo's favour when the movie clearly shows the opposite. "In the zone" Anakin is a product of invalid N-Canon material, and that's all.

Then the following quote is of no relevance?

Coming from Matthew Stover:

"Though I did not personally watch him do it, I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.

What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.

Period. "

Lucas was clearly a heavy authority on the novel- unless you think Stover is lying, you see how the novel is certainly canon, as Lucas personally reviewed it and edited it.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41

1. "So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test."

So here we have Palpatine telling Dooku that he would stop the fight if Anakin managed to be in a position to kill him. In other words, he was fighting without the need of self preservation, an enormous disadvantage, in the sense that he wasn't quite fighting for his life, and thus wasn't quite pushing himself as hard as he otherwise would have.

2. "If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready."

So here we have Palpatine essentially forbidding him from mortally harming Anakin, saying that if he wasn't quite ready, they'd let him go. An even bigger disadvantage, in the sense that he was limiting exactly what he could do by actively holding himself back from going for a killing blow.

So even if Anakin did "smash him," (completely subjective, with the exception of the novelisation, which in N-Canon in that respect anyway) he was only capable of doing it under extremely advantageous circumstances.

Your entire point is defeated due to the novel, as I had proven above, being canon- also, the novel claimed that Dooku went for the kill, believing that Sidious would understand it.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
1. Again, novelisation Dooku/Anakin fightscene = N-Canon, much like Nick Gillard, Ian McDiamond, and the RotS novelisation fight scene that had Palpatine appear a blur to the eyes of Anakin.

You make me laugh, Nebaris. When a source benefits your argument, you claim it's canon, no matter what- but when people with heavy authority, such as the ones you mentioned above say something, it's non-canon. Why? Because you said so.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
2. Where is it said or shown that Dooku has knowledge of all seven forms of lightsaber combat? A member named Quinlan Vos tried to prove as much a while back, and he failed miserably.

When he personally trained Grievous in all seven forms of combat?

The rest of your argument is made redunant due to how I disproved the points you've made previously in the post.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Jedi Masters are almost always described in such a way. Substantiate what it means for Obi-Wan, and prove that it puts him on a high enough level in saber ability to bridge the gap created by Revan and Malak's significant superiority in force ability, or drop the point.

Show me once when a Jedi Master who is not extremely powerful did something such as 'letting the force guide him' and becoming a vessel for it, allowing it to control you- during his fights, Obi-Wan almost completely sank into a 'trance' fuelled by the force, enabling to vastly surpass his 'regular' fighting ability. Combine that with his superb Soresu, and you see how- in terms of lightsaber dueling- he absolutely shits on Malak and very possibly equally matches with Revan.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
While that's very much true, there's a limit to the effect modesty has on a person's self belief; at the end of the day, if he truly was very proficient with anything other than Soresu, he wouldn't have been completely oblivious to such a fact.

Then how do you, exactly, explain how he was capable of making Dooku- someone with excellent knowledge of Obi-Wan's prodigious and well-publicized reputation, believe he is an Ataru and Shii-Cho user? He must have had some sort of profiency in these forms.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Exactly. At the time of TPM. He completely abandoned the form after recognising its defencive weaknesses, and it's likely after about ten years that he was no longer very proficient with it. His words do indicate as much after all.

And his actions indicate otherwise.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Have you even read the novel? Both he and Anakin had planned to fool Dooku into believing that they were no threat to him whatsoever, to put him into a false sense of security, and then catch him off guard by using their actual practised lightsaber forms. All that Obi-Wan did was dupe Dooku into believing that he was a very poor practitioner of those forms, which last time I checked, only demanded a poor level of ability with said forms in the first place.

They demanded some degree of ability, as he displayed the fact that it was sufficient to dupe Dooku- who is fully aware of Obi-Wan's and Anakin's prodigious skill- into thinking that they were practicians of these forms.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Not that it matters, as the novel, in that segment of it, is completely N-Canon.

Of course it is. If the novel had said "Obi-Wan and Anakin was being quickly defeated by Dooku", or "Sidious was disarmed by Yoda", or something along the lines of that, I'm sure you would've considered it canon.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
I didn't deny as much, but it's an insignificant point, and does little to raise his saber profile. As I was saying, he would have to be a good notch above Revan or Malak is lightsaber ability to be able to compete with their level of Force enhanced abilities, and being a very high level Master with one form, as well as having an extremely poor level of ability with a couple of others doesn't quite have that effect. You'd have to be an Ulic Qel-Droma, or Kas'im, to be a good notch or two above a battle hardened lightsaber prodigy.

Anakin- in his 'in teh zone' state would be able to defeat Kas'im in combat, as would Obi-Wan be capable of defeating Ulic Qel-Droma. Your wild beliefs that everyone who can hold a lightsaber is superior to any PT Jedi deserve proof.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Again, good for Obi-Wan, but he would have to be a good league above Malak or Obi-Wan in lightsaber technique to be able to compete with them, given how they themselves were at least a league above him in what's logically a far more significant factor. Being a lightsaber prodigy already puts you at a pretty high level, which both Malak and Revan were, and to be a good level above that would require an extraordinary level of ability in the grand scheme of things; as I was saying, limited to their chosen lightsaber form, and time period, they were great. In the grand scheme of things, or beyond their chosen lightsaber form? Not so much.

You've yet to explain how Obi-Wan's entering into a 'force trance' and being, undisputably, the greatest master of Soresu in history- as well as Anakin's 'force wrecking ball' abilities- don't put them at significantly above Revan and Malak, who simply aren't known to display immense skill in lightsabers.

Their 'time period' is referred to, by George Lucas, to be the 'prime of the Jedi', when Jedi were at their absolute peak- I know you think that the Army of Light and every single random incarnation of the Jedi Order is superior to anything that appears in the movies because it benefits your argument, but it simply isn't true- it is supported by Lucas himself. It's very evidence that in the 'grand scheme of things', that particularly incarnation of the Jedi Order is certainly one of the best, if not the best, Jedi Order yet.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
No, 16 strikes per second was the most he could contend with, and 20 strikes a second was described as "overloading" his defences. You'll see it's all there to be found in the novelisation, if you ever bother to read it.

I read it several times, thank you. And I said he was able to block up to 20 strikes per second- which is, already, insanely impressive. Especially coming from a droid who could be an even match with Mace Windu in combat, copy lightsaber forms, and completely overwhelm several talented Jedi at once.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Again, the point I was making was that Revan and Malak weren't exactly very talented padawans with lightsabers, but very talented practitioners of the weapons that had honed their ability through the art of war. To actually be of prodigy status, and to have actually received battle experience puts them at a very high level, and Anakin and Obi-Wan's exceptional ability would have to progress beyond their time or chosen form of combat to be considered a good notch above Revan or Malak's level of ability.

Again, Anakin and Obi-Wan had just as much experience as Revan and Malak (Obi-Wan even more so), and became the most famous Jedi of one of the most destructive galactic conflicts of all time. Nothing suggests that Malak and Revan were 'LIGHTSABER prodigies', while both Obi-Wan and Anakin were constantly praised as highly skilled combatants (and were able to completely frighten Dooku and Grievous, two known people who defeated and fought Jedi on numerous occasions), Malak and Revan are unknowns in terms of lightsaber abilities.

Chick Magnet

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Could you provide the passage surrounding the statement and the page number so I can form my own interpretation because that sounds pretty damn farfetched. Also, what exact point in time was the statement made at, and explain how it amounts to anything more than meaningless hyperbole, because the idea that he had mastered all known forms of combat in his short lifetime seems impossibly unlikely.

Dark Lord: Rise Of Darth Vader pg 263

"Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels and his moves were crisp and unpredictable."

Takes place a short time after ROTS

I misquoted it, however the point still stands Anakin knows more then just Djem So, and is more then adept at these combat forms, as he knows their most dangerous levels and as the passage states he implemented them into his own custom style, which to even do that he'd have to have a very firm grasp on these techniques in the first place. Really Neb there is no way around it you can attempt to dismiss it as hyperbole but thats in itself is dismissive of everything we know about Anakins raw combat ability, the guy who utterly smashed a Master of the lightsaber, Count Dooku in about 12 seconds. With his Djem So alone.

To even imply that Anakin is a n00b at everything else but Djem So is utter failure and flat out silly.

Elite Hunter

I always interpreted the ROTS duel as follows the scenes that contradict the movie is not canon but the parts of the duels that follows canon aka the movie scenes (and the thoughts of the characters in those scenes that follow canon) are canon. BTW where did Mar Stover say that?

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I always interpreted the ROTS duel as follows the scenes that contradict the movie is not canon but the parts of the duels that follows canon aka the movie scenes (and the thoughts of the characters in those scenes that follow canon) are canon. BTW where did Mar Stover say that?

Don't know the exact interview. Maybe someone else can tell you...

Chick Magnet

^I agree, in the movie Anakin is MUCH more impressive anyways, and considering as evident in the novel Dooku pretty much says "**** this!" and starts taking the duo seriously, and really, when he saw that Palpatine was cheering on Anakin; I don't think it takes a genius to put together that Dooku kinda knew what was going on. The novel alludes to it with this line:

"Treachery is the way of the Sith"

In Dooku's POV right after he's baffled about Palpy helping Anakin.

Really Homo this is a tired argument, LeeLand Chee has said that the POV scenes and the narration are as canon as canon can be, meaning that Dooku shitting his pants over Anakins skill = CANON. Meaning that in the POV scene that follows were Anakins judgment in the force literally becomes reality = CANON. I thought we went through this like a year ago?

Anakin = Teh Shit.

And me being probably the biggest Revan fan on this forum would admit that Anakin would tap Revans ass in a saber duel, hell Anakin would tap almost ANYONES ass in a saber duel. I personally think the only person who could stand up to Anakin in the state of mind he was in during the end of the Dooku duel would be ROT Bane with all his little sea shells (And those are the ONLY reason for it).

Finally Homo your out right lying about Revan and Malak's saber skill its NEVER stated in KOTOR or anything for that matter that they were supreme duelist (not that I doubt they were) its only logical deduction and conjecture made off of Revans leet force ability but even that doesn't put either of them in Anakins league.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
^I agree, in the movie Anakin is MUCH more impressive anyways, and considering as evident in the novel Dooku pretty much says "**** this!" and starts taking the duo seriously, and really, when he saw that Palpatine was cheering on Anakin; I don't think it takes a genius to put together that Dooku kinda knew what was going on. The novel alludes to it with this line:

"Treachery is the way of the Sith"

In Dooku's POV right after he's baffled about Palpy helping Anakin.

Really Homo this is a tired argument, LeeLand Chee has said that the POV scenes and the narration are as canon as canon can be, meaning that Dooku shitting his pants over Anakins skill = CANON. Meaning that in the POV scene that follows were Anakins judgment in the force literally becomes reality = CANON. I thought we went through this like a year ago?

Anakin = Teh Shit.

And me being probably the biggest Revan fan on this forum would admit that Anakin would tap Revans ass in a saber duel, hell Anakin would tap almost ANYONES ass in a saber duel. I personally think the only person who could stand up to Anakin in the state of mind he was in during the end of the Dooku duel would be ROT Bane with all his little sea shells (And those are the ONLY reason for it).

Finally Homo your out right lying about Revan and Malak's saber skill its NEVER stated in KOTOR or anything for that matter that they were supreme duelist (not that I doubt they were) its only logical deduction and conjecture made off of Revans leet force ability but even that doesn't put either of them in Anakins league.

While I certainly agree with the majority of your post, I think that Luke could certainly defeat him in a pure lightsaber duel. Sidious, Yoda, and Mace are also people who are faster and more controlled than Anakin, and therefore can at least contend with him- yes, Bane could defeat him, but perhaps Jacen or Kyle can stand up to him too. But yes- he is certainly a 'saber god', and is easily in the top 10 duelists of all time.

Gideon

Lol, I love how AC just called him "Homo".

Faunus

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
I personally think the only person who could stand up to Anakin in the state of mind he was in during the end of the Dooku duel would be ROT Bane with all his little sea shells (And those are the ONLY reason for it).Um, Obi-Wan?

Chick Magnet

Who be dat?

Chick Magnet

Besides take away Padme and put them on a flat area with no lava pits/floating platforms/giant falling buildings/tarzan wire ropes and Obi Wan = dead. Considering even when he barley won he was trying "Anything just to slow him down."

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
because the idea that he had mastered all known forms of combat in his short lifetime seems impossibly unlikely. It seems unlikely due to your constant stupidity and bias against PT/OT characters.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Besides take away Padme and put them on a flat area with no lava pits/floating platforms/giant falling buildings/tarzan wire ropes and Obi Wan = dead. Considering even when he barley won he was trying "Anything just to slow him down."

Anakin > Obi-Wan is canonical fact. However, Obi-Wan is more than likely to take a rematch due to his vastly superior intelligence, coolness, and the knowledge of each one of Anakin's moves- he's simply smarter, in short. So he's most likely going to win.

Superboy Prime

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin > Obi-Wan is canonical fact. However, Obi-Wan is more than likely to take a rematch due to his vastly superior intelligence, coolness, and the knowledge of each one of Anakin's moves- he's simply smarter, in short. So he's most likely going to win.

QFT

Allankles

Yes Obi Wan is probably the most cagey duelist in the mythos and could certainly pull another victory on Anakin. However, Styles has a point, take away the dangerous environmental conditions on Mustafar and Obi Wan would have been overwhelmed (the high ground won't have mattered without the river of lava in between them).

Chick Magnet

I don't know what fight you all were watching but the one I saw was Anakin absolutely dominating Obi Wan with OB1 constantly giving ground because he couldn't stand against Vader. The novel makes it clear that OB1 was desperate for anything to even slow Vader down, and was in constant fear for his life. When Anakin got a hold of him he nearly crushed Kenobi to death his his raw strength. The only reason he stood a chance in the first place was cause he knew Anakins moves like the back of his hand. And eventually Kenobi will slow down while Anakin just keeps getting stronger as the fight progresses.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
I don't know what fight you all were watching but the one I saw was Anakin absolutely dominating Obi Wan with OB1 constantly giving ground because he couldn't stand against Vader. The novel makes it clear that OB1 was desperate for anything to even slow Vader down, and was in constant fear for his life. When Anakin got a hold of him he nearly crushed Kenobi to death his his raw strength. The only reason he stood a chance in the first place was cause he knew Anakins moves like the back of his hand. And eventually Kenobi will slow down while Anakin just keeps getting stronger as the fight progresses.

Have you ever heard of Soresu? It's a style designed to be on the defensive and constantly give ground- Obi-Wan, in short, controlled the flow of the fight and all, by constantly retreating, in order to tire Anakin out and find a place where he could gain a tactical advantage.

Yes, he was doing everything he can to keep Anakin at bay. Yes, Anakin is the superior swordsman. But was he 'afraid'? Especially when the novel makes it clear that he missed an opportunity to kill Anakin due to hesitation? Hardly. Anakin 'in teh zone' could give any force-user in history a hard time in sabers- but Obi-Wan, knowing all of his moves, styles, and most importantly of all, his psychological weaknesses, will win most times against him.

Schwarzenegger

I think its possible that "t2h zone" or "crystal clear anakin" may be one of the best(or perhaps 2nd to luke) in terms of swordsman ship abilities.

Note: this is my personal opinion so don't bash me for that.

Faunus

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Have you ever heard of Soresu? It's a style designed to be on the defensive and constantly give ground- Obi-Wan, in short, controlled the flow of the fight and all, by constantly retreating, in order to tire Anakin out and find a place where he could gain a tactical advantage.

Yes, he was doing everything he can to keep Anakin at bay. Yes, Anakin is the superior swordsman. But was he 'afraid'? Especially when the novel makes it clear that he missed an opportunity to kill Anakin due to hesitation? Hardly. Anakin 'in teh zone' could give any force-user in history a hard time in sabers- but Obi-Wan, knowing all of his moves, styles, and most importantly of all, his psychological weaknesses, will win most times against him.Nicely put.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I think its possible that "t2h zone" or "crystal clear anakin" may be one of the best(or perhaps 2nd to luke) in terms of swordsman ship abilities.

Note: this is my personal opinion so don't bash me for that.

Why would anyone bash you for that? It's a very reasonable opinion. I think that the only people who can stand against 'In teh zone' Anakin in lighsaber combat are Sidious, Yoda, Mace, and Luke. Oh, and Bane too, if only because of his orbalisks and his immense physical strength. And against any of them (aside from, maybe, Luke), Anakin would have a considerable chance of winning.

Originally posted by Faunus
Nicely put.

Thank you. big grin

Faunus

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Why would anyone bash you for that? It's a very reasonable opinion. I think that the only people who can stand against 'In teh zone' Anakin in lighsaber combat are Sidious, Yoda, Mace, and Luke. Oh, and Bane too, if only because of his orbalisks and his immense physical strength. And against any of them (aside from, maybe, Luke), Anakin would have a considerable chance of winning.I wouldn't go that far. As we've already established, Obi-Wan managed to outsmart and defeat him. Every combatant you just mentioned is both faster and more technically skilled than Anakin while also possessing a greater grasp of the Force. Mace and Bane are also considerably stronger than he is while eclipsing his proficiency in multiple lightsaber forms, and the latter has impenetrable body armor covering everything but his head and wrists. Then of course, there's Luke.

I'd say all of them could take Anakin with relative impunity, if with a considerable amount of difficulty.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Faunus
I wouldn't go that far. As we've already established, Obi-Wan managed to outsmart and defeat him. Every combatant you just mentioned is both faster and more technically skilled than Anakin while also possessing a greater grasp of the Force. Mace and Bane are also considerably stronger than he is while eclipsing his proficiency in multiple lightsaber forms, and the latter has impenetrable body armor covering everything but his head and wrists. Then of course, there's Luke.

I'd say all of them could take Anakin with relative impunity, if with a considerable amount of difficulty.

Shame on me. I forgot Obi-Wan ^^. Yes, Obi-Wan is certainly one of the few capable of taking Anakin in combat- but, as I've established previously, it was only due to his dominance in the psychological aspect of the fight.

Also, you'll have to take into account the depictions of Anakin's strength in the novel (which I have posted in my debate with Nebaris), sufficient to completely outclass Dooku, tire him out, and prevent him from launching a counterattack- while Dooku isn't exactly what you'd call physically strong, and also has the disadvantage of using a form that generates little kinetic energy, it already displays Anakin's physical strength as immense. And while he may not be nearly as physically conditioned as either Bane or Mace, his raw power and 'force wrecking ball' status may allow him to match them in a contest of strength.

Each one of the foes I've listed hold a definete advantage over Anakin in combat, as you have indeed said- Mace has his Vaapad's advantages over dark side energy, as generated by Anakin 'in teh zone', and also his shatterpoint, while Sidious and Yoda have their speed and agility- Bane has his physical strength and his orbalisks. Luke, meanwhile, is superior to Anakin in almost all respects. They're all more practiced and technically skilled than he is.

Now that I've quit my rambling, I'd say that I basically agree with you on the fact that while any of them above mentioned duelists can take Anakin down, he can certainly put up a fight.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Faunus
Every combatant you just mentioned is both faster and more technically skilled than Anakin while also possessing a greater grasp of the Force. Mace and Bane are also considerably stronger than he is

the ROTS Novel calls Anakin the strongest and fastest jedi of his generation, perhaps of any generation. it says most powerful as well, but i assume that relates to raw power, as yoda was later described as the most "devastatingly powerful."

Originally posted by Faunus
I'd say all of them could take Anakin with relative impunity, if with a considerable amount of difficulty.

well yeah maybe. i think it should be noted that he seems to get stronger as the fight goes on. so any of the top dogs would have a decent chance at taking Anakin early on in the fight(like dooku almost did) but as the fight progresses Anakins chances significantly increase.

thats why having Obi-Wan help Anakin against Dooku actually did help him early on in the fight, when he would need the most aid. (even though it may have looked liked Obi-Wans contribution to winning that fight was next to nothing.)

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
the ROTS Novel calls Anakin the strongest and fastest jedi of his generation, perhaps of any generation. it says most powerful as well, but i assume that relates to raw power, as yoda was later described as the most "devastatingly powerful."

I always, personally, interpreted that quote as coming from Anakin's point of view- the fact that Yoda is the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' clearly overwrites this quote of Anakin being the most powerful Jedi of his generation. Or else, it's possible to note this quote only refers to Anakin's specific generation- Yoda and Mace are hardly from 'Anakin's generation', being his seniors by many years- even Obi-Wan has more than 10 years on him.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I always, personally, interpreted that quote as coming from Anakin's point of view- the fact that Yoda is the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' clearly overwrites this quote of Anakin being the most powerful Jedi of his generation. Or else, it's possible to note this quote only refers to Anakin's specific generation- Yoda and Mace are hardly from 'Anakin's generation', being his seniors by many years- even Obi-Wan has more than 10 years on him.

hmm... i dunno.. i seriously doubt that quote was comparing Anakin to all the 20 year old jedis. generation to me implicated all the jedis of that time period. thats who that generation of jedis are. also lets not forget the quote also said "perhaps of ANY generation."

Mace also says later on that "Skywalker is arguably the most powerful jedi alive.."

devastatingly powerful specifically means using power in the most destructive and effective way. so Anakin could be the most powerful in terms of raw power. but yoda the most devastatingly powerful. theres no contradiction there.

Chick Magnet

While Kenobi's mastery of Soresu is very, very formidable, I stand by the fact that the only reason he was able to last against Anakin was that he knew him inside and out:

"Blade to blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better then brothers, more intimately than lovers."

That added with he knows him psychologically, Padme being there, and Anakin still being somewhat conflicted (As alluded to in the ROTS novel and flat out stated in Dark Lord) plus the hectic environment leads to a OB1 victory...barely

Had they been on flat ground with no corridors, lava, platforms etc etc, it removes Obi Wan's ability to use the environment to his advantage, without that Kenobi is dead. Anakin has never faced a foe who held so many advantages over him, and even still he manages to unleash all types of hell on his former master.

As for Anakin and Yoda, Anakin has FAR more raw power then Yoda ever will, and when that manifests itself (The Dooku fight) he's nigh unstoppable, however he rarely gets into this state of mind.

On anther point, Mace constantly admits all throughout Shatterpoint, that Anakin is superior to him, in the force that is, and thats simply knowing him as a Jedi, with no knowledge of his dark power biding beneath the surface. Where do people get the idea that a fifty+ year old man (Mace) is some how physically stronger or faster then Anakin? A 20 year old whose built like a tank, who has all the force power in the world to augment his strength and speed. Dooku called him a destroyer droid with a saber, he snapped Ventress's wrists like twigs. Not to mention the ROTS quote which calls him the fastest and strongest Jedi flat out.

DARTH POWER

^^ totally agreed.. I think the novel makes that quite clear..

Chick Magnet do you agree with me that the best chance to take Anakin out is if its early on in the fight, because he gets stronger the longer he fights.. Dooku kicked Anakin on to his rear in the first half of the fight, so if he didnt have to deal with Obi1 then that might have been an oppurtunity for Dooku to win, The Only Oppurtunity.. as after that Anakin was just all over him.

Faunus

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
On anther point, Mace constantly admits all throughout Shatterpoint, that Anakin is superior to him, in the force that is, and thats simply knowing him as a Jedi, with no knowledge of his dark power biding beneath the surface.He says nothing of the sort, actually. Mace notes at the end of the book that Anakin is the new shatterpoint of the war, and separately muses that he may be the most powerful Jedi alive, and is only getting stronger. 'Powerful' as in realized raw power. Anakin clearly can't contend with the 'Big Four' in Force contests, considering he couldn't even overpower Kenobi.
The 'fifty+ year old man' practically beat the two-meter tall, 'granite chested' Kar Vastor - a man with the raw Force power to rival that of Yoda and Anakin himself - into the ground. Someone "half his age and twice his size." Anakin's a twig compared to Vastor, and happens to be smaller in build than Mace.

The point being that when backed by the Force, Mace is stronger than Anakin, and his speed is sufficient to literally put Sidious on his ass.
The fastest and strongest of his generation. A generation being 25 years. So he's 'better' than any Jedi from the ages of 0 to 48. The only notable PT Jedi to fall into that age group would be Obi-Wan.

Gideon

While Anakin Skywalker's raw power grants him moments where he becomes essentially unstoppable, I disagree that he could take on and defeat the likes of Yoda and Darth Sidious in single combat as of Revenge of the Sith; Skywalker's problem is that he is a deeply disturbed individual, psychologically, which seems to have an adverse effect on his Force strength; consider that in Labyrinth of Evil, he was capable of bringing down the roof of a tremendous factory and almost killing Count Dooku just by shouting. Yet during his fight with Obi-Wan, he was unable to overpower Kenobi's Force push. Skywalker's fragile mental state seems to be directly tied to his fluctuating Force powers. Against Yoda, Skywalker is facing someone who would probably have crushed Dooku in the same amount of time -- consider that Yoda was able to outpace and force the Count to retreat even when Dooku was on Vjun, where his own formidable Force powers were enhanced. Likewise, Yoda's experience is lightyears beyond Anakin's, and he is a smaller target. Finally, Yoda is stated by the omniscient narrator to be "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" -- which trumps the previous statement that Anakin was possibly the strongest of any generation (he certainly had the potential, but I doubt he was the most powerful Jedi in actuality as of Revenge of the Sith). Against Darth Sidious, Anakin is even more screwed. Say what you want about Skywalker's prodigious lightsaber skills, the fact remains that when he was fighting someone like Obi-Wan, he was conflicted and deranged. I'd imagine fighting against his even closer friend and mentor would have an even greater effect; Palpatine's unparalleled mastery of psychology notwithstanding, he'd likely reduce Skywalker to tears in a couple of words. Palpatine is also a very cagey and cunning fighter, a master of multiple forms, and also a master of martial arts (having personally trained Maul in them). Force-wise? He, like Yoda, will curbstomp Anakin.

I'm not so sure about Mace, but I don't think Anakin would have an easy time even if he did win.

Edit: Faunus, where is it that Windu's "speed" was enough to put Sidious on his ass? If anything, Sidious demonstrated vastly superior speed than Windu.

Chick Magnet

Thats exactly what I would say Escape, its the only way to explain Anakins fluctuating power level all throughout the latter days of the clone wars, and as I was saying I'm talking about the Anakin whose in the mindstate he was aboard the Invisible Hand fighting no, raping Count Dooku. THAT Anakin would murk nearly everybody. However Anakin in generally very power and enough to contain with the "Big 4" as you put it on anyday.

And yeah a mentally unstable, paranoid, heart-broken Anakin couldn't overpower Kenobi...big whoop. A very pissed off Anakin was able to as the Novel not I put it make a complete joke out of Count friggin Dooku.

As for Mace, yes he does, theres the point yoou mention, the time when he saved the Balawi children and thinks if he had Yoda or Anakins power that the task would be easy, then following when he meets Kar Vastor in combat he compares Kar Vastors power to Anakin and Yoda's.

LOL WUT.

I seem to interpret things differently as I distinctly remember Kar beating the ever loving shit out of Mace Windu, like practically in a coma type of beating the ever loving shit of. Then he goes on to say he couldn't beat Kar Vastor on his best day. Jesus that was a blatant as lie on your part.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Gideon
While Anakin Skywalker's raw power grants him moments where he becomes essentially unstoppable, I disagree that he could take on and defeat the likes of Yoda and Darth Sidious in single combat as of Revenge of the Sith; Skywalker's problem is that he is a deeply disturbed individual, psychologically, which seems to have an adverse effect on his Force strength; consider that in Labyrinth of Evil, he was capable of bringing down the roof of a tremendous factory and almost killing Count Dooku just by shouting. Yet during his fight with Obi-Wan, he was unable to overpower Kenobi's Force push. Skywalker's fragile mental state seems to be directly tied to his fluctuating Force powers. Against Yoda, Skywalker is facing someone who would probably have crushed Dooku in the same amount of time -- consider that Yoda was able to outpace and force the Count to retreat even when Dooku was on Vjun, where his own formidable Force powers were enhanced. Likewise, Yoda's experience is lightyears beyond Anakin's, and he is a smaller target. Finally, Yoda is stated by the omniscient narrator to be "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" -- which trumps the previous statement that Anakin was possibly the strongest of any generation (he certainly had the potential, but I doubt he was the most powerful Jedi in actuality as of Revenge of the Sith). Against Darth Sidious, Anakin is even more screwed. Say what you want about Skywalker's prodigious lightsaber skills, the fact remains that when he was fighting someone like Obi-Wan, he was conflicted and deranged. I'd imagine fighting against his even closer friend and mentor would have an even greater effect; Palpatine's unparalleled mastery of psychology notwithstanding, he'd likely reduce Skywalker to tears in a couple of words. Palpatine is also a very cagey and cunning fighter, a master of multiple forms, and also a master of martial arts (having personally trained Maul in them). Force-wise? He, like Yoda, will curbstomp Anakin.

I'm not so sure about Mace, but I don't think Anakin would have an easy time even if he did win.

Edit: Faunus, where is it that Windu's "speed" was enough to put Sidious on his ass? If anything, Sidious demonstrated vastly superior speed than Windu.

I don't think anyone here was talking about an all-out fight; if anything, people were discussing the outcome of a pure lightsaber duel between Anakin and the 'top dogs'- in which he comes considerably closer to them, as displayed by his raw power, becoming more powerful as the fight goes on, etc, etc, etc. However, as Faunus noted, he is slower and less technically skilled than Mace "multiple visible arms", Sidious "blur of speed", and Yoda "whirlwind of destruction". However, I think that while they will most probably defeat him in a lightsaber duel, he'd give them a hell of a time, if not win.

It's also been confirmed by the novel that Anakin used his rage to overcome Dooku- seeing as rage generates dark side energy, Mace will, undoubtedly, be able to explot it and copy Anakin's usual advantages in combat just like he could to Sidious's normally vastly superior speed, in your words. But, in an all-out fight, he'd fare significantly worse than Yoda and Sidious, due primarly to their superior force powers (especially Sidious'- one shot of lightning, and Anakin is toast).

I've come to the conclusion that Anakin is second only to the above three in terms of lightsaber skill- at least so in the PT.

DARTH POWER

Anakin was called the most powerful jedi of his generation perhaps any. and then the narrator goes on to say, "he's the fastest. the strongest." that part didnt refer to any particular generation.

also remember how dooku saw anakin as "a destroyer droid with a lightsaber." this on its own not only shows Anakins awsome strength, but speed as well. Strength and Speed which Dooku could not handle. so i dnt see any proof that Mace is as fast or as strong as Anakin.

also Anakin didnt just use rage against Dooku, but he also let go of all the power which he usually holds back on. he hadnt actually embraced the darkside, so im not sure if Mace's superconducting loop wuld work on an anakin who was using rage as a tool but was still himself a lightsider.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin was called the most powerful jedi of his generation perhaps any. and then the narrator goes on to say, "he's the fastest. the strongest." that part didnt refer to any particular generation.

also remember how dooku saw anakin as "a destroyer droid with a lightsaber." this on its own not only shows Anakins awsome strength, but speed as well. Strength and Speed which Dooku could not handle. so i dnt see any proof that Mace is as fast or as strong as Anakin.

also Anakin didnt just use rage against Dooku, but he also let go of all the power which he usually holds back on. he hadnt actually embraced the darkside, so im not sure if Mace's superconducting loop wuld work on an anakin who was using rage as a tool but was still himself a lightsider.

Anyone using the dark side- and rage generates dark side energy- is prone to Vaapad's effects. The percise quotes obiviously refers to him as the 'strongest, the fastest' Jedi of his generation- which hardly contradicts anything, seeing as he's clearly the most talented Jedi of his generation, and most probably far surpasses anyone of the top dogs when they were at his age (compare RotS Anakin to TPM Obi-Wan, for example).

While Anakin certainly isn't lacking in speed, he overwhelmed Dooku due to his strength and stamina- never once is it stated that Anakin's speed was overwhelming Dooku, for that matter. Mace, meanwhile, attacked so fast that onlookers (Anakin himself, in the RotS novel- and while that doesn't exactly happen in the movie, the speeds depicted in this fight, according to quotes and such, are still very much canon) saw multiple arms. Sorry, but while you can argue that Anakin is physically stronger than Mace (and that would only be due to his raw power), Anakin isn't exactly equal to Mace in speed.

However, I think that the only fights in the PT who can overwhelm Anakin due to their speed are Yoda and Sidious- and even they will need more than their superior speed to defeat Anakin.

DARTH POWER

well when Dooku saw him as a destroyer droid with a lightsaber, to me that always seemed to imply overwhelming strength and speed. as destroyer droids are both those things. otherwise he wuldnt have overwhelmed dooku so badly who himself is very fast.

and anakins raw power in the force would give him just as much strength as it would speed.

also when Anakin sees mace with multiple arms thats in the fight with sidious when mace has merged into vapaad to give him the same speed that sidious has.

Faunus

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
As for Mace, yes he does, theres the point yoou mention, the time when he saved the Balawi children and thinks if he had Yoda or Anakins power that the task would be easy, then following when he meets Kar Vastor in combat he compares Kar Vastors power to Anakin and Yoda's.He says that Yoda would've been able to just levitate the steamcrawler away with relative ease - there's absolutely no mention of Anakin there. Again, he compares Anakin's raw power to that of Yoda, but clearly the kid hasn't the control to utilize it in a similar fashion.
Somebody needs to chill.

I guess you missed the entire fight before that. Namely, the parts where, among other things, Mace - who is, by the way, already wounded and battered by this point - initiates the fight by meeting Kar in a flying tackle that creates visible streaks of lightning on impact and manages to suspend them in mid-air long enough for the two to exchange a series of blows and grapples, lands six different blows on Kar's head and body before he can so much as blink, and at the very end, punches him in the face with enough force to flip him backwards. Of course, Vastor being pretty much the most physically supreme being in the PT while also rivaling Yoda in power, the fact that Mace wouldn't be able to beat him 'on his best day' doesn't detract from him at all.

Chick Magnet

And as I've been stating over and over when Anakin was aboard the Invisible Hand in his fight with Dooku he utilized his raw force power in such away that makes him one of the most powerful beings light or dark to ever live, I'm saying THAT Anakin would stand against all the foes you've mentioned.

As for Mace, all thats super and all but AGAIN after Mace slips into Vaapad and gives him all he's got Kar Vastor gets up smiling, and proceeds to beat him into submission. So it kinda voids what Mace did. Really since the fight is from Mace's POV we don't even know if Kar allowed Mace to do all that just to get up and flaunt his superiority over him, I'm not saying that he did but it is a possibility.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well when Dooku saw him as a destroyer droid with a lightsaber, to me that always seemed to imply overwhelming strength and speed. as destroyer droids are both those things. otherwise he wuldnt have overwhelmed dooku so badly who himself is very fast.

and anakins raw power in the force would give him just as much strength as it would speed.

also when Anakin sees mace with multiple arms thats in the fight with sidious when mace has merged into vapaad to give him the same speed that sidious has.

That's a good point- however, you have the fact that Vaapad is constantly described that way, with multiple visible arms. Also, I don't own Shatterpoint, but isn't there a quote there emphasizing Mace's speed? I'm not certain- if you own it, maybe you can check.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
That's a good point- however, you have the fact that Vaapad is constantly described that way, with multiple visible arms. Also, I don't own Shatterpoint, but isn't there a quote there emphasizing Mace's speed? I'm not certain- if you own it, maybe you can check.

yeah iv got shatterpoint although not read the whole thing yet.

but iv read the part about Vapaad being a predator which you dnt know how many tentacles it has until it kills you. so Mace's speed through Vapaad is described in the same way.

so im not denying Mace's incredible speed. just comparing it to Anakins "Destroyer Droid" type offensive, which completely overwhelmed Dooku. and also remembering Dark Rendevouz stating Dooku and Mace being equals in bladework.

Also I remember in the ROTS novel Mace accepting Sidious's superior speed, but then using Vapaad's superconducting loop to match him.

so yeah to be honest not sure whom would be faster out of Anakin and Mace, but id say Anakins definetely stronger being a "Destroyer Driod with a lightsaber."

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yeah iv got shatterpoint although not read the whole thing yet.

but iv read the part about Vapaad being a predator which you dnt know how many tentacles it has until it kills you. so Mace's speed through Vapaad is described in the same way.

so im not denying Mace's incredible speed. just comparing it to Anakins "Destroyer Droid" type offensive, which completely overwhelmed Dooku. and also remembering Dark Rendevouz stating Dooku and Mace being equals in bladework.

Also I remember in the ROTS novel Mace accepting Sidious's superior speed, but then using Vapaad's superconducting loop to match him.

so yeah to be honest not sure whom would be faster out of Anakin and Mace, but id say Anakins definetely stronger being a "Destroyer Driod with a lightsaber."

Anakin may, indeed, be physically stronger due to his unrivaled raw power, as depicted in his fight against Dooku- however, at the same time, Mace has incredible levels of physical conditioning, and the fact that Mace's superconducting loop will possibly allow him to copy Anakin's strength, generated by rage.

Dooku and Mace, circa Dark Rendezvous, may indeed by equal in terms of their pure bladework- in the sense that while Dooku may be more technically skilled, but Mace has better conditioning, speed, stamina, and his shatterpoint ability. Meanwhile, however, Mace was capable of scoring a win against an opponent that was arguably superior in terms of pure bladework via his Vaapad (granting him Sidious' usual speed and agility advantage), and his Shatterpoint ability- according to Nick Gillard, Mace is superior to Dooku in lightsaber combat, too. Obssession also depicts Dooku running away from Mace in combat. I think it's quite clear- to me, at least- that Mace is Dooku's superior, at least in lightsaber combat.

Again, I think that the only two combatants in the PT who can claim a particularly significant speed advantage over Anakin are Yoda and Darth Sidious- while Mace is faster, I'm not exactly certain that his speed alone will be able to dominate Anakin.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin may, indeed, be physically stronger due to his unrivaled raw power, as depicted in his fight against Dooku- however, at the same time, Mace has incredible levels of physical conditioning, and the fact that Mace's superconducting loop will possibly allow him to copy Anakin's strength, generated by rage.

to be honest i dnt knw.. because i dnt really understand precisely how Mace's Superconducting Loop works. it's quite complicated to me.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku and Mace, circa Dark Rendezvous, may indeed by equal in terms of their pure bladework- in the sense that while Dooku may be more technically skilled, but Mace has better conditioning, speed, stamina, and his shatterpoint ability.

yeah something like that. agreed.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Meanwhile, however, Mace was capable of scoring a win against an opponent that was arguably superior in terms of pure bladework via his Vaapad (granting him Sidious' usual speed and agility advantage), and his Shatterpoint ability-.

im not sure how relevant A>B>C argument is here, as it all depends on how Mace's superconducting loop would work on Dooku, which iv already stated I dnt fully understand. all I know is it helped Mace to match Sidious in Speed and Power during their duel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
according to Nick Gillard, Mace is superior to Dooku in lightsaber combat, too.
dnt think Nick ever specifically said that. I think your referring to Mace being a level 9 saber duelist. although this may be a fair assumption on your half, it was never mentioned what level Dooku is. also Nick talks about how the fights were choreographed in the movies, and the only saber duel we see Mace in the movies is against Sidious when Maces superconducting loop put him on level with him.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Obssession also depicts Dooku running away from Mace in combat. I think it's quite clear- to me, at least- that Mace is Dooku's superior, at least in lightsaber combat.

dnt want to get wayyyy off topic here talking about Dooku, but iv never bought this argument. they seemed exactly equal in the duel. Dooku had many jedis after him, so didnt have time for a long battle with Mace. Not to mention the fight ended with Mace falling down a cliff unarmed. I find it highly unlikely that Dooku wuld be scared of Mace when if Dooku wanted to continue the battle he would have had the high ground and weapon advantage.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Again, I think that the only two combatants in the PT who can claim a particularly significant speed advantage over Anakin are Yoda and Darth Sidious- while Mace is faster, I'm not exactly certain that his speed alone will be able to dominate Anakin.

yeah your probably right about this.

Gideon

Jedi Twilight is turning out to be an excellent book, and I thought I would share a revelation that is somewhat relevant to this thread from Nick Rostu (the Force sensitive who was witness to the final battle between Mace Windu and Kar Vastor):

"There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor."

Chick Magnet

Oh shit, Vader just got put on a whole new level.

Gideon

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Oh shit, Vader just got put on a whole new level.

This would seemingly support Palpatine's theory that much of Vader's potency is limited purely on the psychological.

Darth Sexy

I still don't understand how it could. Without limbs you can't summon quite a # of force powers. I understand that midichlorians deal per cell but if you have a lot less cells than other force users, aren't you at a disadvantage? I don't see it being just a psychological issue

Gideon

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I still don't understand how it could. Without limbs you can't summon quite a # of force powers. I understand that midichlorians deal per cell but if you have a lot less cells than other force users, aren't you at a disadvantage? I don't see it being just a psychological issue

Anakin's potential wasn't hindered by the loss of his total forearm to Count Dooku's blade in Attack of the Clones, was he? While not a majority, that is a major loss of biomass, yet no one mused, stated, or implied that Anakin lost "15% of his potential" or whatnot. I'm sure there's merit to all aspects, but Lumiya's theory doesn't weigh very well against the theory of Sidious, who is more knowledgeable, powerful, and a much more accomplished dark side magus.

Darth Sexy

Yea but don't you think Sidious would say anything to make Vader feel better? Sidious telling Vader that he lost most of his potential would obviously not help Vader hunt down the Jedi. Furthermore, didn't GL in his Vanity Fair interview claim that Vader only became 80% of Sidious AFTER he was maimed rather than 200%, and that Luke would become what Vader was supposed to become.

Gideon

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea but don't you think Sidious would say anything to make Vader feel better?

No.

And he didn't tell Vader this, anyways. It wasn't some pep talk.

I'm sure Vader didn't need to be told. And even without his potential, he is still more powerful than any remaining Jedi.

No one said Vader did become 200% of Sidious.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

And he didn't tell Vader this, anyways. It wasn't some pep talk.

I'm sure Vader didn't need to be told. And even without his potential, he is still more powerful than any remaining Jedi.

No one said Vader did become 200% of Sidious.

At his peak Anakin was supposed to become twice as powerful as Sidious, therefore 200%

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

And he didn't tell Vader this, anyways. It wasn't some pep talk.

Why would palpatine want to tell that to vader? It is already clear that palpatine didn't want vader to become supremely powerful in RODV.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I still don't understand how it could. Without limbs you can't summon quite a # of force powers. I understand that midichlorians deal per cell but if you have a lot less cells than other force users, aren't you at a disadvantage? I don't see it being just a psychological issue

Yoda said it best, "size matters not". If Yoda as small and diminutive as he was, could be the most powerful Jedi of his generation and perhaps Star Wars history up to his life time, why should Vader who is much larger be hindered by the loss of parts of his limbs?

Volumetrically Vader was bigger and still had the highest midi count in the mythos. And according to Palpatine there was no one else (until Luke) with the potential to surpass or even rival Vader in the force.

Yes Vader was roughly 80% of Sidious as of the OT, but he was only in his ealry 40's, there's nothing to suggest Vader wouldn't have surpassed Sidious given time.

Darth Sexy

There is, GL stating that Vader would be only 80% as powerful as Palpatine.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
There is, GL stating that Vader would be only 80% as powerful as Palpatine.

Did he say "he would only" with reference to Vader's death in OT or that he would never be capable of surpassing Palpatine?

You also have to take into account the time of the quote, before the introduction of midichlorians we would have had no reason to re-examine that quote. Given the nature of midi's there's no reason to believe Vader didn't have the capacity to surpass Palpatine.

Darth Sexy

He wouldn't be able to surpass Palpatine because at his peak, as a result of his injuries, he would only be 80% of Palpatine.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He wouldn't be able to surpass Palpatine because at his peak, as a result of his injuries, he would only be 80% of Palpatine.

Are those GL's words, that Vader at his absolute peak would only be 80% of Sidious?

Strange, I would have thought he only meant as of OT, and given the fact that he introduced midichlorians, it doesn't quite add up since Vader's midi count is sill significantly higher than Palpy's.

DARTH POWER

Lucas says in ROTS audio commentary about Vader that "hes lost a lot of power and a lot of feasibility to become more powerful than the emporer.."

so heres clearly lost a lot of potential, but a lot of feasibiltiy is not ALL feasibility... therefore there may have still been hope for Vader to surpass Sidious one day. He still wasnt even as old as Sidious was in Episode 1.

But im not quite sure what Lucas means by "hes lost a lot of power.." does he mean just Raw Power?? or Overall Power??

Also wuldnt being 80% of OT Sidious make him almost as powerful as ROTS Sidious??

Schwarzenegger

Well considering that dooku and palpatine reached their peak when they were old fartbags, wouldn't vader had become more powerful than he currently is if he reached their age?

Vader is far younger than dooku and sidious yet he is nearly as strong as sidious when he was 40+.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
im not sure how relevant A>B>C argument is here, as it all depends on how Mace's superconducting loop would work on Dooku, which iv already stated I dnt fully understand. all I know is it helped Mace to match Sidious in Speed and Power during their duel.

A fact that -might- help Dooku in a fight against Mace is the fact that Dooku seems to rely on the force and the dark side considerably less than either Anakin or Sidious (thus justifying his inferior speed, in Sidious' case, and strength, in Anakin's case), using only his natural physical abilities, his technical skill, and common force-enhanced attributes, reflexes, and such, without going over-the-top like Sidious and Yoda. However, Mace still has the advantage of youth, power, speed, and shatterpoint ability.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
dnt think Nick ever specifically said that. I think your referring to Mace being a level 9 saber duelist. although this may be a fair assumption on your half, it was never mentioned what level Dooku is. also Nick talks about how the fights were choreographed in the movies, and the only saber duel we see Mace in the movies is against Sidious when Maces superconducting loop put him on level with him.

No, you're incorrect- see, the only thing Mace's superconducting loop gave him was Sidious' speed (as supported by the novel). The technical skill, strength, tactics, and shatterpoint ability were all still Mace's- and besides, the superconducting loop generated by Vaapad is an intergal part of Mace's swordsmanship. Without it, he'd be simply a skilled user of an exceptionally fast and unpredictable style. Even without the advantage of Vaapad, however, Mace, still has a speed advantage over Dooku (thanks to his vastly superior conditioning)- and note that in the Clone Wars cartoon, Mace is depicted moving and striking as a blur in the Battle of Dantooine.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
dnt want to get wayyyy off topic here talking about Dooku, but iv never bought this argument. they seemed exactly equal in the duel. Dooku had many jedis after him, so didnt have time for a long battle with Mace. Not to mention the fight ended with Mace falling down a cliff unarmed. I find it highly unlikely that Dooku wuld be scared of Mace when if Dooku wanted to continue the battle he would have had the high ground and weapon advantage.

Admittedly, I haven't read Obsession in a very long time now- could you please give me a link to a site offering to download Obsession, or post a scan of it? Thanks.

Anyways. Do we all agree that the PT Jedi team has this?

Edit: And how long do you give Nebaris 'till he's back?

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
A fact that -might- help Dooku in a fight against Mace is the fact that Dooku seems to rely on the force and the dark side considerably less than either Anakin or Sidious (thus justifying his inferior speed, in Sidious' case, and strength, in Anakin's case), using only his natural physical abilities, his technical skill, and common force-enhanced attributes, reflexes, and such, without going over-the-top like Sidious and Yoda.

Dooku has basically dedicated his decades of training to perfecting his duelling skills and his connection to and mastery over the force. those are his main strengths and main advantages over all opponents except Yoda and Sidious.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
However, Mace still has the advantage of youth, power, speed, and shatterpoint ability.

I dnt think Mace has any Power advantage over Dooku. Dooku was very powerful and very strong in the force. Yoda's statments confirm so. He says Dooku was the strongest and most knowledgeable in the force out of all the Students of the Jedi. he says this in Dark Rendezvous.. also the ROTS novel says Dooku was one of the most powerful jedis in the whole 25000 year history of the jedi order, and an even more powerful sith lord.

also you may be underestimating Dookus speed. hes shown to be quite fast in the movies, and can handle Greivous's onslaught of 20 strikes per second, and is fast enough to hold his own for against yoda(for a while at least.)

as for youth Dooku is said to be physically half his age. Of course Mace may beat Dooku or Anakin or Vader in a fight due to Vapaads superconducting loop, and its advantage over Darksiders... im not denying that. though im not sure exactly how that works or how it would specifically work on Dooku.

but that doesnt necessarily make him more Powerful than Dooku. For example he may not fair any better in a fight against say Yoda than Dooku did.
Dooku actually took out Sora Bulq a lot more easily than Mace did. and I doubt Mace could take Obi1 or Ventress as easily as Dooku did either. (i.e. a simple flick of the wrist, or just by rasing a finger!!!)

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
and note that in the Clone Wars cartoon, Mace is depicted moving and striking as a blur in the Battle of Dantooine.

yeah Asajj Ventress was also depicted as a blur when she was dodging attacks of those bounty hunters/trained killers to impress dooku.

she also took out a load of them, and later a whole load of clone troopers just using the force. and she splits up a whole lot of fire and walks through it using the force as well.. so i personally wuldnt use the clone war cartoons for comparisons of speed or force power.

neway yes I agree the PT heroes win this fight. Anakin and Obi-Wan were exceptional as a team, and became legends during the clone wars. Anakins Raw Power with Obi-1s calm and defensive approach should take this. unless either Revan or Malak have exceptional mastery over the force which may prove troublesome for Obi1..

and whats your take on how powerful Darth Vader in the suit is. cause thats what were discussing at the moment, and its always seemed to have been a bit of a mystery to me!

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku has basically dedicated his decades of training to perfecting his duelling skills and his connection to and mastery over the force. those are his main strengths and main advantages over all opponents except Yoda and Sidious.

Obviously so, but when in combat, he doesn't draw on the force quite as heavily as Yoda, Sidious, Mace, or Anakin, for that matter- sure, he uses it to compensate for his being an old man, but for him, it's only secondary to his technical skill. He doesn't use force-enhanced speed, strength, or agility nearly as much as the above mentioned four- but he makes up for it by being arguably the most refined, well-practiced, and technically skilled lightsaber duelists in the Prequels.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I dnt think Mace has any Power advantage over Dooku. Dooku was very powerful and very strong in the force. Yoda's statments confirm so. He says Dooku was the strongest and most knowledgeable in the force out of all the Students of the Jedi. he says this in Dark Rendezvous.. also the ROTS novel says Dooku was one of the most powerful jedis in the whole 25000 year history of the jedi order, and an even more powerful sith lord.

Sorry, I misspoke. I didn't mean raw power, mastery, or something like that, but rather about his physical strength- when he, once again, outclasses Dooku. He's more built, and had- as Faunus noted- displayed the ability to go toe-to-toe with Kar Vastor, an immensely powerful and fast adversary, and beat him to the ground.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
also you may be underestimating Dookus speed. hes shown to be quite fast in the movies, and can handle Greivous's onslaught of 20 strikes per second, and is fast enough to hold his own for against yoda(for a while at least.)

I don't think Dooku is slow- on the contrary, I think he's rather fast in bladework, but he simply isn't exceptionally fast. His style of fighting (not just Makashi... his entire way of fighting) doesn't rely on it as much- yes, the ability to go toe-to-toe with Yoda is highly impressive, but according to the novel, Yoda simply evaded most of his strikes, and Yoda still dominated the duel, forced him back, and eventually caused him to escape- he also defeated Dooku later on Vjun.

As for your point about the movie, while Dooku is 'fast', he doesn't appear quite as fast as the speeds displayed in Yoda vs. Sidious, Anakin vs. Obi-Wan, and Grievous vs. Obi-Wan- but other than the above mentioned few, he's as fast as anyone.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
as for youth Dooku is said to be physically half his age. Of course Mace may beat Dooku or Anakin or Vader in a fight due to Vapaads superconducting loop, and its advantage over Darksiders... im not denying that. though im not sure exactly how that works or how it would specifically work on Dooku.

We can't really be sure, but it'll undoubtedly provide some advantage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
but that doesnt necessarily make him more Powerful than Dooku. For example he may not fair any better in a fight against say Yoda than Dooku did.

That's arguably true, but let me remind you that Mace is more mobile, agile, and quick than Dooku, if not as refined or technically skilled- while Yoda will probably defeat him, his style of fighting is better suited to counter Yoda's whirlwind of destruction.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku actually took out Sora Bulq a lot more easily than Mace did. and I doubt Mace could take Obi1 or Ventress as easily as Dooku did either. (i.e. a simple flick of the wrist, or just by rasing a finger!!!)

Was Mace going all-out in his fight against Sora? And these are force-attacks- Mace had displayed considerable skill in Telekinesis, as displayed in Shatterpoint and force-crushing Grievous (who is made of an exceptionally strong substance), and Dooku's lightning will be irrelevant in this fight, seeing as Mace was capable of holding off (despite being gradually overwhelmed) by Sidious' lightning- and Sidious' lightning is really leaps and bounds above Dooku's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yeah Asajj Ventress was also depicted as a blur when she was dodging attacks of those bounty hunters/trained killers to impress dooku.

she also took out a load of them, and later a whole load of clone troopers just using the force. and she splits up a whole lot of fire and walks through it using the force as well.. so i personally wuldnt use the clone war cartoons for comparisons of speed or force power.

Point is taken.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
neway yes I agree the PT heroes win this fight. Anakin and Obi-Wan were exceptional as a team, and became legends during the clone wars. Anakins Raw Power with Obi-1s calm and defensive approach should take this. unless either Revan or Malak have exceptional mastery over the force which may prove troublesome for Obi1..

big grin

Though, force mastery will be rather irrelevant since this is a pure lightsaber match.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and whats your take on how powerful Darth Vader in the suit is. cause thats what were discussing at the moment, and its always seemed to have been a bit of a mystery to me!

I think of Vader as an exceptionally powerful Sith Lord, particularly in his apt abilities with Telekinesis (such as crushing a facility constructed out of durasteel via simply getting pissed off). About his potential? According to Sidious, it was, indeed, simply a psychological barrier. And there is a quote in Death Star suggesting that Vader would, someday, be the most powerful Sith Lord in history, indicating that he certainly had the potential to surpass Sidious (who is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time).

Now then, his lightsaber skills- while no doubt impressive- are only useful against a select type of foes. When he engages in combat with people who are faster and more mobile than him- Grievous, for example- he would most likely get overwhelmed. Maul also dominated him in their duel due to his agility and speed- Vader, in his combat, needs a little more than pure lightsaber skills to overcome his opponents. He needs improvisation, the force, and tactical skills in order to overcome his foes- his lightsaber technique, while useful, is only secondary to the three traits above.

Chick Magnet

Vader > Kar Vastor > Mace Windu -thus- Vader > Mace Windu

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Vader > Kar Vastor > Mace Windu -thus- Vader > Mace Windu You serious? I hope you are.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
You serious? I hope you are.

You did see Gideon's quote right?

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
You did see Gideon's quote right? Nope, which one is it?

Elite Hunter

This one
Originally posted by Gideon
Jedi Twilight is turning out to be an excellent book, and I thought I would share a revelation that is somewhat relevant to this thread from Nick Rostu (the Force sensitive who was witness to the final battle between Mace Windu and Kar Vastor):

"There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor."

Schwarzenegger

Damn this brings vader to a whole new level.

Elite Hunter

As far as sith (known sith) go I would still rank Sids,Bane,Caedus,Kun and Nihilus(stupid drain) ahead of him for sure. Personally I say that Vader is right below Revan but not by much but above Malak and Dooku.

tulakhordpwns

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Vader > Kar Vastor > Mace Windu -thus- Vader > Mace Windu
The funny thing is, Mace manages to beat Vastor when it matters.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
As far as sith (known sith) go I would still rank Sids,Bane,Caedus,Kun and Nihilus(stupid drain) ahead of him for sure. Personally I say that Vader is right below Revan but not by much but above Malak and Dooku.
In a fight he would probably beat Nihilus, due to the uncontrolable nature of the "drain". Vader is probably closest to Kun and Revan.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
As far as sith (known sith) go I would still rank Sids,Bane,Caedus,Kun and Nihilus(stupid drain) ahead of him for sure. Personally I say that Vader is right below Revan but not by much but above Malak and Dooku.

Hmm... that's not such a bad list. Both Sidious and Caedus are confirmed to be Vader's superiors- meanwhile, the others will most likely defeat him. Certainly Kun and Bane- with the others, it's considerably more complex.

Sidious, having mastered a technique to hide one's presence in the force had possibly taught it to Vader (Dooku, as confirmed in Labyrinth of Evil, knew it, but whether Sidious instructed him in its usage remains open to speculation)- if so, I'm certain Vader would smash Nihilus in a lightsaber duel, therefore allowing him a possible win.

Next we have Malak and Dooku. Vader is certainly above Malak- but above Dooku? That's more open to speculation. Dooku is considerably more mobile and better practiced than Vader- Vader, in his previous fight with Dooku, was able to win virtue of his raw power, physical strength, and 'force wrecking ball' abilities- out of the above mentioned abilities, Vader only possesses his physical strength. And there is a possibility that Dooku would simply outmaneuver him too quickly from him to employ his full strength against him. In force mastery, while Vader possesses considerably more dark side knowledge, Dooku, at the same time, possesses far more experience than Vader (having lived about... twice the lifetime of RotJ Vader)- and, in addition, also has force lightning, an attack that Vader is highly vulenrable to. A fight between Dooku and Vader is very close indeed.

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
As far as sith (known sith) go I would still rank Sids,Bane,Caedus,Kun and Nihilus(stupid drain) ahead of him for sure. Personally I say that Vader is right below Revan but not by much but above Malak and Dooku. I think revan is ahead of bane and caedus when it comes to mastery and skills but those you mentioned are not THAT far ahead from vader imo. But if vader were to face any those superiors and rivals you had mentioned, i doubt that any of them would take vader down easily or comfortably because i think its fair to conclude that vader would go down after a long or a hard fight considering his strength and proficiency in the force added with his will power.

The ONLY one in that list that i see him beating vader rather comfortably is sidious seeing that he knows most of vaders weaknesses and there was a point when he was able to shut down vaders entire life support system to intimidate vader(i can't remember where this was from but kamikz brought this up).

Even the quote stating that caedus surpassed vader alone indicates that vader is an extremely powerful sith lord.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Next we have Malak and Dooku. Vader is certainly above Malak- but above Dooku? That's more open to speculation. Dooku is considerably more mobile and better practiced than Vader- Vader, in his previous fight with Dooku, was able to win virtue of his raw power, physical strength, and 'force wrecking ball' abilities- out of the above mentioned abilities, Vader only possesses his physical strength. And there is a possibility that Dooku would simply outmaneuver him too quickly from him to employ his full strength against him. In force mastery, while Vader possesses considerably more dark side knowledge, Dooku, at the same time, possesses far more experience than Vader (having lived about... twice the lifetime of RotJ Vader)- and, in addition, also has force lightning, an attack that Vader is highly vulenrable to. A fight between Dooku and Vader is very close indeed. Thats quite a good point but let me address the force fight issue, dooku has more experience but then so what? Sidious only had like decades whereas yoda had hundreds of years of experience yet couldn't defeat sidious.

As for the force lightning thing its not like vader can't deflect it or protect himself with a lightsaber coupled with vader having greater dark side knowledge and a much higher level of raw power.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
In a fight he would probably beat Nihilus, due to the uncontrolable nature of the "drain". Vader is probably closest to Kun and Revan.

It all depends Nihilus seems to be force first lightsaber second if not at all type of character. Vader tools Nihilus with the saber but if they try a force duel he stands a good chance of losing.(god dam i hate nihilus)

Dooku vs Vader would be close but I think the experience Vader has that his ROTS self does not have would help because he wouldn't try something stupid like he did in AOTC vs Dooku or vs Obiwan. Vader can block lightning with his saber or possibly with a force shield(not exactly sure on the latter) but vader is skilled with force crush.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I think revan is ahead of bane and caedus when it comes to mastery and skills but those you mentioned are not THAT far ahead from vader imo.

Personally I want to see Revan use more offensive force powers but his mastery (darkside/sith knowledge only in Caedus's case) might not be that much higher than them by a large degree though they both beat him in saber combat.

None of them are way above Vader but I still think they would all win the majority of the duels vs Vader well Nihilus depends on what type of duel they start with.

I would tend to agree with you for the most part, though the other part is interesting and do ask him.

Advent

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
But if vader were to face any those superiors and rivals you had mentioned, i doubt that any of them would take vader down easily or comfortably because i think its fair to conclude that vader would go down after a long or a hard fight considering his strength and proficiency in the force added with his will power.

Too bad none of which could withstand Exar Kun's unique abilities and dark side knowledge (it's stated in the JA Sourcebook that what Kun learned on Yavin was exclusive to Kun and not known by Vader). I doubt Vader would have a defense for an attack that he doesn't even know about.

All that sounds like is electronic manipulation, a technique known by Kun as well.

kamikz

The Emperor does it in Star Wars: The Mandalorian Armor.

From what I remember, he just raised his hand and Vader was unable to breath and fell to his knees. Don't remember if it's specific what he did to Vader, it might say, I have the book, but I really don't want to read through it to find it.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Even the quote stating that caedus surpassed vader alone indicates that vader is an extremely powerful sith lord.

Thats quite a good point but let me address the force fight issue, dooku has more experience but then so what? Sidious only had like decades whereas yoda had hundreds of years of experience yet couldn't defeat sidious.

As for the force lightning thing its not like vader can't deflect it or protect himself with a lightsaber coupled with vader having greater dark side knowledge and a much higher level of raw power.

You know I never denied Vader being an extremely powerful Sith Lord. And yes, you are certainly correct that Dooku's lightning- being significantly weaker than Sidious' (not to mention Vader's physical strength) will not be able to penetrate Vader's defense from a long-range status. However, Makashi employs only one-hand on the blade, and Dooku displayed the ability to use one-handed lightning quite effectively; he could possibly finish off Vader with a close-ranged gout of lightning. Or outmaneuver him with a lightsaber (We have no argument that Dooku is Vader's superior with a blade, yes?). Of course, Vader has an excellent fighting chance- but Dooku, in my opinion, has a slight edge.

Oh, and Advent, by the way... when did Exar Kun display electronic manipulation? Just wondering.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, and Advent, by the way... when did Exar Kun display electronic manipulation? Just wondering.

I think he did it in the jedi academy trilogy and used it on the Tedryn holocron to destroy it.

Chick Magnet

He force threw a shield at him and impaled him, thats hardly beating him straight up, Mace then says he could NEVER beat Kar Vastor straight on, on his best day.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Advent

All that sounds like is electronic manipulation, a technique known by Kun as well.

yeah but I think his point was that Kun wuldnt know the weaknesses of Vaders suit the way Sidious does.

Faunus

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Vader > Kar Vastor > Mace Windu -thus- Vader > Mace Windu Mace Windu > Sidious > Vader -thus- Mace Windu > Vader

While I've always maintained that Vader is more powerful than Mace, your logic fails miserably.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Faunus
Mace Windu > Sidious > Vader -thus- Mace Windu > Vader

While I've always maintained that Vader is more powerful than Mace, your logic fails miserably.

While I certainly agree with you about that sort of logic being ridiculous, do you think Vader could take on Mace in a fight?

Chick Magnet

Originally posted by Faunus
Mace Windu > Sidious > Vader -thus- Mace Windu > Vader

While I've always maintained that Vader is more powerful than Mace, your logic fails miserably.

Except Mace beat him in a straight lightsaber duel. Nowhere is it ever stated that Mace is generally all around stronger then Sidious, as it does in my comparison. And taking away Sidious's psychological advantage, Vader could probably do it too.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Except Mace beat him in a straight lightsaber duel. Nowhere is it ever stated that Mace is generally all around stronger then Sidious, as it does in my comparison. And taking away Sidious's psychological advantage, Vader could probably do it too.

Vader could defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel? I can understand you saying RotS Anakin has a certain chance against Sidious in a lightsaber duel (it's not a particularly good chance, though). But RotJ Vader? That seems a bit... absurd. Can you tell me why you think that?

Advent

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yeah but I think his point was that Kun wuldnt know the weaknesses of Vaders suit the way Sidious does.

The "weaknesses" of his armor would be fairly simple for anyone with half a brain to figure out. It's operated via an electronics system, ergo Kun alters the system so it shuts down.

Allankles

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
As far as sith (known sith) go I would still rank Sids,Bane,Caedus,Kun and Nihilus(stupid drain) ahead of him for sure. Personally I say that Vader is right below Revan but not by much but above Malak and Dooku.

I personally would put Bane, Revan, Kun, Malak and Dooku below Vader in terms of force power. Could they beat him in a fight? Certainly possible if Vader (which he can) doesn't block Sith lightning or any power that compromises his life support systems. He's more vulnerable but also more powerful IMV.

Faunus

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
While I certainly agree with you about that sort of logic being ridiculous, do you think Vader could take on Mace in a fight?I think Vader could definitely 'take on' Mace, although I'd love to see how that one would turn out. Due to his inability to summon Sith lightning Vader would pretty much be limited to telekinetic assaults, unless someone can provide me with another branch of offensive Force-use that he has access to. Meanwhile, Mace has shown himself to be capable of grounding a Force-grip from Kar Vastor while being hurled into tree trunks and akk hounds, so chances are he'd be able to somewhat mitigate the advantage his opponent has in terms of sheer power.

However, Vader doesn't have much a chance at all in a lightsaber duel. Mace was fast enough to tie up Grievous with an offensive barrage, and managed to defeat Darth Sidious in personal combat. As skilled as Vader has become, he can't win against someone who is at least as proficient with the blade as he is while also having the advantage of being notably faster.

So clearly, I think it could easily go either way.

Schwarzenegger

Whoa you been away for a long time. Well welcome back.

Originally posted by Advent

Too bad none of which could withstand Exar Kun's unique abilities and dark side knowledge (it's stated in the JA Sourcebook that what Kun learned on Yavin was exclusive to Kun and not known by Vader). I doubt Vader would have a defense for an attack that he doesn't even know about.
Ah ok, i didn't know that much about kun as i have no access to any of the sourcebooks. Btw the things he learned was it all lost and forgotten on yavin IV?

Originally posted by Advent

All that sounds like is electronic manipulation, a technique known by Kun as well. Ok then.

Btw are you implying that kun defeats vader rather easily?

Advent

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Whoa you been away for a long time. Well welcome back.

Thanks. It seems every time I check this site you always have a new username. stick out tongue

It was destroyed during the Jedi's final assault on Yavin, IIRC.

But, the sourcebook specifically mentions that Darth Vader didn't have knowledge of what Kun learned from Sadow's notes.

Yeah, while I'd agree that Vader has a higher mastery and more experience, Kun has the upper hand in actual techniques. His defensive capabilities are shown to be enough when he withstands the most powerful ability the light side of the Force has to offer when he's off guard. Compare this to Vader, who wouldn't have any abilities to protect himself with from Kun's attacks.

Plus, his nifty gauntlet would come in handy considering it can repeatedly fire massive blasts of destructive energy with no down time and is stated to "radically enhance the user's telekinetic ability" (DSSB). And his power in the Force was strong enough that even as a 4,000 year old weakened spirit he had Luke Skywalker shitting his pants when he possessed Kyp (as you should know already since I've argued this before).

Along with other showings and quotes, it's clear Kun would match Vader in power and certainly beats him in a fight, especially if lightsabers are involved.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Advent
Thanks. It seems every time I check this site you always have a new username. stick out tongue

It was destroyed during the Jedi's final assault on Yavin, IIRC.
Welcome back indeed!
Actually, I think a bit's changed what with KOTOR and the like so quite a bit survived Yavin's inferno...the Night Beast, the remaining members of the Brotherhood, quite a bit of knowledge-in Complete Locations, Palpatine's had quite a bit excavated.

Yep, true...but Vader's one thing, Palpatine's another. Jedi vs. Sith confirms that Palpatine knows all of Sadow's knowledge-and by extension, Kun and Nadd's. Depending on the time, Palpatine could have allowwed Vader some of the knowledge

Advent

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Welcome back indeed!
Actually, I think a bit's changed what with KOTOR and the like so quite a bit survived Yavin's inferno...the Night Beast, the remaining members of the Brotherhood, quite a bit of knowledge-in Complete Locations, Palpatine's had quite a bit excavated.

Good to see you're still around, Lightsnake. Thanks!

Are you referring to the "brotherhood" that consisted of a handful of apprentices? Err, remind me where it's mentioned that any of them were even on the planet. Crado died before the attack, Oss turned to the light side, and Jolee's wife dies on Yavin. Provide proof the others survived or that they were even still alive at that point.

And Kun knew the mutated Massassi would be safe when he states "you will be a last surprise for !". Indicating everything and everyone else would be ****ed.

1. Quote from JvS please.

2. It's a leap to assume that Sidious taught Vader jack, because even if Palpatine had Sadow's knowledge - it contradicts nothing in the JA Sourcebook. It states that Vader doesn't know such.

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Advent

But, the sourcebook specifically mentions that Darth Vader didn't have knowledge of what Kun learned from Sadow's notes.

Well i won't question that seeing that it is pretty obvious stick out tongue

.

Theres nothing to indicate that vader even learned any of sadow or kuns stuff in the first place.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Faunus
I think Vader could definitely 'take on' Mace, although I'd love to see how that one would turn out. Due to his inability to summon Sith lightning Vader would pretty much be limited to telekinetic assaults, unless someone can provide me with another branch of offensive Force-use that he has access to. Meanwhile, Mace has shown himself to be capable of grounding a Force-grip from Kar Vastor while being hurled into tree trunks and akk hounds, so chances are he'd be able to somewhat mitigate the advantage his opponent has in terms of sheer power.

However, Vader doesn't have much a chance at all in a lightsaber duel. Mace was fast enough to tie up Grievous with an offensive barrage, and managed to defeat Darth Sidious in personal combat. As skilled as Vader has become, he can't win against someone who is at least as proficient with the blade as he is while also having the advantage of being notably faster.

So clearly, I think it could easily go either way.

As you have mentioned above, Vader stands no chance against Mace in lightsaber combat, as he was capable of matching Grievous "20 strikes per second" in speed- and his Vaapad will be able to grant him some of Vader's force-aided strength advantage (as it allowed him to gain Sidious' otherwise superior speed).

In a force fight, Vader has more of a chance due to his considerable dark side knowledge, experience, and, as you have mentioned, his rather extreme telekinetic abilities. He also displayed the ability to use the environment to his advantage at multiple times, and Mace will be hard pressed to avoid all of he missles Vader would send at him.

Note, however, that Vader seems to prefer to engage his opponents in a lightsaber duel before using the force to gain an advantage. And I'm pretty sure that Mace could end a lightsaber duel against Vader very quickly. It's for that reason that I give Mace an edge in this fight- but if Vader plays his cards right, he could defeat Mace. Though it will be far from easy.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Advent
The "weaknesses" of his armor would be fairly simple for anyone with half a brain to figure out. It's operated via an electronics system, ergo Kun alters the system so it shuts down.

and so Vaders just gna stand there and let Kun do that to him right??

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Advent
1. Quote from JvS please.

2. It's a leap to assume that Sidious taught Vader jack, because even if Palpatine had Sadow's knowledge - it contradicts nothing in the JA Sourcebook. It states that Vader doesn't know such.

I believe this is what Lightsnake is referring to.

Before the excerpt from Sadow's holocron Sidious said Sadow "left detailed records of his work"

Then this is what Sidious said about Naga Sadow and his knowledge after the excerpt from Sadow's holocron.

Ah,but Naga Sadow was far too generous with his knowledge. Far more than I. Also,despite his powers,he was ultimately undone by his own impatience to expand the sith empire. After his death,Sadow's secrets were gained by Freedon Nadd,who passed them on to Exar Kun. Because none of them came to a glorious end,I think it's best that I guard Sadow's teachings a bit longer. However, I am tempted to incorporate some of his findings into my own book, The Creation of Monsters

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Advent
Good to see you're still around, Lightsnake. Thanks!
Quite welcome, lad to see you back

Yes, well, thanks KOTOR for that retcon.
And Jolee's wife didn;t die on Yavin...the surviving Brotherhood members and the Krath launched an attack on the Tetan system at the end. We know Larad Noon survived it...and Suvam Tan was likely a member of the Brotherhood who was on Yavin 4 during the Jedi attack along with quite a few others.

Elite Hunter provided it. If you haven't read the Sith section of JvS, I do recommend it.

Just wondering at what point in time the source was referring to. Palpatine tended to be an erratic teacher at the best of times.

Advent

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and so Vaders just gna stand there and let Kun do that to him right??

He'd probably be busy bowing down to his new master, Exar Kun.

Seriously though, I never said he would. Your point was that you would need an intricate knowledge of how Darth Vader's suit worked to shut it down, which isn't the case. Kun could use the Force to disable his life support (in more ways than one), ergo it's just one more advantage over the many he has already.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Quite welcome, lad to see you back

Yes, well, thanks KOTOR for that retcon.
And Jolee's wife didn;t die on Yavin...the surviving Brotherhood members and the Krath launched an attack on the Tetan system at the end.

Jolee states that she "went on to kill many Jedi during the war until she, herself, was slain in the final battle". The "final battle" of the GSW was the Jedi's wall of light assault, Lightsnake. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to believe she died there.

"The Jedi attack resulted in an immense conflagaration in the jungles, obliterating the trees and scorching the temple complex so completely that nothing could survive." -- The New Essential Chronology, pg. 20

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/9595/nothingcansurvivepe7.th.jpg

And the actual source material itself dictates that "nothing can survive".

It was a reference in general - if you have to associate it with a specific time period, then ROTJ.

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Advent
He'd probably be busy bowing down to his new master, Exar Kun.

Hopefully lol. "If" this were the case i wonder would kun be a better teacher than sidious in a sense that he doesn't behave like an old fartbag and treat vader like trash.

BTW how old do you think kun is? If he is mid 30-40's and already that powerful i think through time he would be even stronger by the time he reaches dooku's age.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Advent

Jolee states that she "went on to kill many Jedi during the war until she, herself, was slain in the final battle". The "final battle" of the GSW was the Jedi's wall of light assault, Lightsnake. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to believe she died there.
The 'Final Battle' was the last battle of the Empress Teta System to be exact. The Krath and surviving Brotherhood used it as a final base. The war persisted briefly when Kun dies...I believe that's in both KOTOR and The New Essential Chronology.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Empress_Teta

Well, Suvan Tam, Larad Noon, the Terentateks and others apparently did, going by KOTOR and Evil Never Dies.
Larad fled Yavin 4 after his master's defeat and Tan confirms he was there at the conflagration that killed his masters.

Well, we know at those points, he'd already had Yavin IV excavated-he'd had the artifacts from there since before ROTs and even kept a mural he got from one of the temples on his wall.

Chick Magnet

Vader's TK abilities are more then enough to deal with Mace in a force fight look how he simply mauls this Jedi in TFU:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAn00Gfg4tU&feature=related - the end of the vid

Then proceeds to do some unknown Dark Side attack that looks like a hadoken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00xbRoqVwBM - 2:16

Not to mention that devastating force wave he throws out.

And, yeah he managed to ground Vastors force grip back into the jungle...only for the jungle to attack him in turn, Vastor turned Mace into a rag-doll.

Now that Vader's been stated as being superior to Kar Vastor, if Mace had so many problems with Vastor to the point where in his head he flat out admitted even on his best day he could never beat him, imagine how Vader would maul him with the force, considering he's you know better in every respect then the guy Mace can never beat straight up.

The same Grievous, that Count Dooku regularly thrashed around? The same Grievous that the movie showed Obi Wan beat rather easily. That same Count Dooku who Anakin "made a joke out of" , the same Obi Wan who barley beat a deranged, heartbroken Vader. Mace beating Grievous is NOT proof of him being superior in saber combat to Vader. As for Sidious, the whole scene where Anakin is dumbfounded by their speed is n-canon as it directly contradicts the movie in every way as Anakin didn't even come into the room till Mace had Sidious on the ground.

How many Jedi must Vader beat/kill for this "He not FAST!!" crap to be thrown out the window? How many of the Jedi he's faced have had the advantage of speed on him? Largely none, because Vader is not the slow clunky doofus we see in ANH, Vader with the enhancements of the suit is very fast and very agile, not to mention the power boost he gains from the mechanical enhancements. The only person who has outclassed Vader was the reborn Maul a pure dark side clone/apparition, and even then he wasn't out matched to the point where he was a helpless child in awe by Maul's speed. The Prophets of The Dark Side noted that they were nearly equals.

However, I can see Mace beating Vader in a saber duel but it would be because of his Vaapad (Throwing Vaders rage and such back at him) NOT his blinding speed, and the victory would only happen after a while, which I doubt Vader would even let last that long considering he has the clear advantage in the force department, and KNOWS of Mace Windu's dueling skills, why would he even bother with a saber duel?

Chick Magnet

The academy that Revan took over were leftovers from Kun's brotherhood also.

Advent

@ Schwarzenegger:

There's no way Kun is 40! laughing

Ulic Qel-Droma was only 22 when Exar fell from power. I'd say he's around the same age, because at the beginning of DLOTS, he's still considered a padawan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The 'Final Battle' was the last battle of the Empress Teta System to be exact. The Krath and surviving Brotherhood used it as a final base. The war persisted briefly when Kun dies...I believe that's in both KOTOR and The New Essential Chronology.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Empress_Teta

Well, Suvan Tam, Larad Noon

Either way: prove Nayama, Tan, and Noon were on Yavin IV during the Jedi's strike. Indeed, it would seem unlikely considering "nothing could survive".

Logically, they couldn't have been there when it happened. If we assumed that as correct, then no contradictions arise.

The terentateks only remained because they weren't on the planet. They were on the Outer Rim planets lurking, according to the NEC.

Do you have any source confirming Larad was even there in the first place?

I'd trust the omniscient narration over a Rodian slave's account.

When does Sidious embark on this grand adventure to dig up treasure on Yavin? Even if he did manage to salvage scraps and pieces of scrolls, there's nothing linking Sadow's teachings to Vader.

Elite Hunter

I think it is more likely that Sidious did not pass on Sadow's knowledge and Kun's by extension onto Vader. The quote said Sadow was more generous than Sidious with the knowledge and Sidious goes onto say that he would guard it.

This quote from Sidious in JvS ("On Selecting Apprentices" wink

also supports the theory that he didn't taught Vader anything from Sadow's/Kun's knowledge.

Because you are not yet a Master yourself,you might assume that it is the master's duty to bestow all of his knowledge of the darkside to his apprentice. You could not be more mistaken. It is the apprentice's duty to learn all he can from the master, and the master's right to refrain from revealing all of his secrets. My own master, Darth Plagueis made the grave error of teaching me too much, at which point he became unnecessary.

DARTH POWER

for those people who say Vaders slow,, he fights pretty damn fast in the Force Unleashed game..

also doesnt anyone remember how fast Luke leaped in ESB, and yet he was no match for Vader.. clearly Vader could match those speeds otherwise Luke could have thrashed him with speed alone.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
for those people who say Vaders slow,, he fights pretty damn fast in the Force Unleashed game..

I don't think vader is a slow as some make him out to be.(he certainly is not close to rivaling some characters in speed) But you do realize that it is a fast paced video game, the novel would be the canon source if anything is mentioned on vader's speed.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Advent
@ Schwarzenegger:

There's no way Kun is 40! laughing

Ulic Qel-Droma was only 22 when Exar fell from power. I'd say he's around the same age, because at the beginning of DLOTS, he's still considered a padawan.

Either way: prove Nayama, Tan, and Noon were on Yavin IV during the Jedi's strike. Indeed, it would seem unlikely considering "nothing could survive".
I never said Nayama was. However, Larad is described as having fled Yavin 4 after Exar's defeat and hiding away on a world for the rest of his life in isolation...and Tan? Tan says in no uncertain terms he was a slave on Yavin 4-albeit he was likely just a member of the Brotherhood given his armor, Sith Holocron and red lightsaber- that, when the conflagration 'killed his masters,' and he remained on Yavin IV for a bit where he searched for salvageable parts before leaving.

Then we can't, and we assume the retcon.

Kun's alchemical creations still remained on Yavin. You can notice this as one of the Hunts of the Great Hunt was the Cleansing of Yavin 4 just a short time later. That would imply quite a few won Yavin itself.

As I pointed out earlier, Larad fled Yavin after Exar's death where he lived in isolation from then on

Suvam was more than likely a member of the Brotherhood. There's no reason to doubt him there. The comment in GSW was retconned or wrong, plain and simple. Between Tan, the Terentateks and Larad, plus the remainder of the Brotherhood, it seems more than a bit survived

Before ROTS, according to Complete Locations. And Kun pretty clearly hid his stuff very deep in the temples where the conflagrations didn't get it to the point where Luke's academy was still finding relics and the like...

Chick Magnet

Has anyone other then Sidious tampered with Vaders life support? If as you put it Advent "The "weaknesses" of his armor would be fairly simple for anyone with half a brain to figure out." Out of all the many Jedi/Bounty Hunters/Armies/Other Force users that Vader has faced, none even attempt to do this. An ion canon should royally f*ck him up, and yet no one to my knowledge does it. Which leads me to believe that theres something that stops them from doing it.

EDIT-

After rereading a section of ROVD Shryne attempts to stab his lightsaber into Vaders life support box and then Vader murks him with the force.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I don't think vader is a slow as some make him out to be.(he certainly is not close to rivaling some characters in speed) But you do realize that it is a fast paced video game, the novel would be the canon source if anything is mentioned on vader's speed.

yeah i knw.. but the only modern day visual source we have to see Vader fight is in video games..

because they culdnt show him fight in the prequels, and he will obviously not be shown in any of the upcoming clone wars animation either. but I have no doubt if he did, they would show him the way hes bin shown in the Force Unleashed game..

besides arnt games s-cannon or something.. that is secondary source that we use when a primary source is not available?? but of course ur right, the novel would be at least c- cannon, or possibly even g-cannon, as Lucas has himself contributed a lot to the Force unleashed story.

Chick Magnet

Vader moves like he does in the cutscenes as well, and ROVD describes him as very fast and agile to the point where he massacres 5 Jedi in about half a page.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
The same Grievous, that Count Dooku regularly thrashed around? The same Grievous that the movie showed Obi Wan beat rather easily. That same Count Dooku who Anakin "made a joke out of" , the same Obi Wan who barley beat a deranged, heartbroken Vader. Mace beating Grievous is NOT proof of him being superior in saber combat to Vader.

No, it's not enough to state that Mace > Vader in lightsaber combat as a whole- but it establishes, quite directly, that Mace is faster than Vader. For example- that Obi-Wan who you referred to in your post managed to fight Grievous thanks to his prodigious Soresu (which, you might not, did not prevent him from being overwhelmed by Grievous' 20 strikes per second- and both the novel and the script support the idea that it was far from easy), and Dooku was also 'hard pressed to outspar' Grievous on occasions- and the Clone Wars cartoon depict him as being on the defensive during their battle. The only being who managed to force Grievous on the defensive is Mace- and as Vader isn't as fast as Mace, I doubt he could do the same. Hell, as you have noted- when Vader goes up against an opponent with superior speed and agility, he gets overwhelmed. However, Grievous, Mace, and Sidious are all faster and more agile than Maul.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
As for Sidious, the whole scene where Anakin is dumbfounded by their speed is n-canon as it directly contradicts the movie in every way as Anakin didn't even come into the room till Mace had Sidious on the ground.

...

Did you not look at my arguments with Nebaris? I have quoted multiple sources showing that thoughts and narration are canon- take the novel as depicting "What Anakin would see had he entered the office". In addition, the following quote both emphasizes Sidious' speed, and explains that Mace used his Vaapad to achieve the same speed:

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again."

And this quote comes from the omniscent narrator, too. And you have the fact that Sidious' was fast enough to match Yoda in combat and maintain a steady offensive- and the novel depicts their fight as a 'tornado'. Sorry, he's faster than practically anyone in the movie saga other than Yoda and Mace who is drawing on Vaapad's superconducting loop feature.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
How many Jedi must Vader beat/kill for this "He not FAST!!" crap to be thrown out the window? How many of the Jedi he's faced have had the advantage of speed on him? Largely none, because Vader is not the slow clunky doofus we see in ANH, Vader with the enhancements of the suit is very fast and very agile, not to mention the power boost he gains from the mechanical enhancements. The only person who has outclassed Vader was the reborn Maul a pure dark side clone/apparition, and even then he wasn't out matched to the point where he was a helpless child in awe by Maul's speed. The Prophets of The Dark Side noted that they were nearly equals.

Key word, NEARLY. And Maul was completely awed by Sidious' skill and speed from before TPM- yes, the same Maul who outclassed Vader in combat. Yes- Sidious was faster than Maul. Depictions, feats, and quotes all support this. And by RotS- while his technical skill probably decreased- his force attunement and mastery all increased, indicating that his force-powered speed would increase, as well.

And as RoDV notes, Vader's suit severely decreased his mobility and speed- he's not 'slow', but he isn't particularly fast, and he's certainly not agile.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
However, I can see Mace beating Vader in a saber duel but it would be because of his Vaapad (Throwing Vaders rage and such back at him) NOT his blinding speed, and the victory would only happen after a while, which I doubt Vader would even let last that long considering he has the clear advantage in the force department, and KNOWS of Mace Windu's dueling skills, why would he even bother with a saber duel?

'Clear advantage in the force department'? Vader is better, but it's not that big an advantage- not quite as big as the advantage Mace has in lightsaber combat, as he is both faster, more agile, and just as technically skilled as Vader, if not more so (in order to be a master of Vaapad, one has to master multiple forms- and Vader, as far as we know, only completely mastered Djem So, although he had working knowledge of multiple forms). Mace has all the cards aside from brute strength in the lightsaber duel- and as Maul showed us, Vader's strength is more than matched by someone with superior speed.

Oh, and you didn't explain why Vader could defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel.

Faunus

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Vader's TK abilities are more then enough to deal with Mace in a force fight look how he simply mauls this Jedi in TFU:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAn00Gfg4tU&feature=related - the end of the vid

Then proceeds to do some unknown Dark Side attack that looks like a hadoken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00xbRoqVwBM - 2:16

Not to mention that devastating force wave he throws out.As long as we're using exaggerated sources:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CSrH1b-nQ28

Ignoring his lightsaber showings, the Force feats beginning at 3:05 pretty much speak for themselves. A 'hadoken' that breaks wood doesn't really compare to a sliding Force-crush that implodes eight super-battle droids, and Vader's Force-wave looks like a breeze compared to Windu's opening one.

The SW Databank and LoE both confirm that Mace fought through the battle droid army and took down the seismic tank.
'In every respect'? You got that from Gideon's quote?
The amount of bullshit here is staggering. Dooku himself noted that he was 'hard-pressed' to defeat the cyborg in their sparring sessions, and Obi-Wan himself was clearly not having an easy time of defeating Grievous, as the novel confirms.

I don't even know why you're trying to compare RotS Vader to his suited incarnation from a combat standpoint. Anakin was more mobile, athletic, and considerably stronger than the Count. And I love how you try to downplay Obi-Wan's victory to Vader's merit. While he was 'deranged and heartbroken,' he was also about as pissed off as we've ever seen a SW character. The man wasn't thinking clearly; that doesn't mean he wasn't fighting as brutally and effectively as possible.
Considering he's the only duelist we've ever seen put Grievous on the defensive while trying not to get ripped off of a speeding mag-lev, it's proof of him being faster.
I agree.
Most of the Jedi he faced were utter garbage in comparison to Windu or Kenobi.
They're all more mobile than him. But again, none of the survivors he faces could touch the PT greats.
Excuse me while I laugh hysterically.

This doesn't even warrant a rebuttal.
You mean the physical advantages? Sure. None of them make him fast, as he laments throughout RoDV.
And the only time we see them fight, Sidious made Maul his *****. The same Sidious who Mace disarmed and floored.
It would be a combination of the aforementioned Vaapad, the 'blinding speed', and his advanced shatterpoint ability.
Again - what's he going to do? Vader's greatest telekinetic feats, going by TFU - which, I remind you, isn't even out yet - are at least matched by Windu's in the CWC. He can't summon lightning, he can't fire destructive blasts like Kun, so how's he going to win?
Blatant lies. After repeatedly hammering in the fact that Vader is a slow, blundering wreck for the first half of RoDV, the last duel has him begin to come to terms with his fate and gain some control over himself. Shyrne notes that there's an ominous 'grace' to Vader's movements now, and that during their duel he draws upon several styles of combat. The Jedi that Vader 'massacres' are inexperienced Padawans and Knights, and Shyrne manages to give him hell before the final Force assault.

Lightsnake

I will say a few of Vader's feats do impress me:
1. His taking on several Knights and Masters at once, including Morgukai trained Ma'Kis on Kessel in Purge
2. His killing the Dark Woman
3. His essentially fighting dozens, if not hundreds of mercenaries and then fighting through about the same number of Storm troopers in Empire: Betrayal
4. The sheer agility he displays in slaughtering one of the finer Royal Guardsmen in Crimson Empire just as a training exercise.

While he's not incredible as Mace or Yoda or Palpatine, there's a definite ability to him, and not inconsiderable speed when he adjusts to himself.

Faunus

I'm not calling him slow, but he's hardly 'very agile and fast' as Styles likes to put it.

Lightsnake

To be honest, I'm a bit divided there...his movement in Crimson Empire is certainly something, and against the Dark Woman...both a relatively short time before ANH

Master Crimzon

Faunus put it very nicely. We aren't downplaying him in any way or claiming that he's 'slow', but in terms of speed, he hardly compares to Sidious, Yoda, or Mace. However, other than a select few, most people are slower than the above mentioned three, so that doesn't exactly make Vader 'weak'.

Chick Magnet

Ok Im stoned right now but I'll respond to all that tonight with pretty pictures and everything...

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Faunus
As long as we're using exaggerated sources:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CSrH1b-nQ28

Ignoring his lightsaber showings, the Force feats beginning at 3:05 pretty much speak for themselves. A 'hadoken' that breaks wood doesn't really compare to a sliding Force-crush that implodes eight super-battle droids, and Vader's Force-wave looks like a breeze compared to Windu's opening one.

Not really trying to argue here but in order for wood alone to be able to support and hold an entire massive wooden structure would need to be very strong and very durable because wood alone in real life would break if it alone were the very foundations of a structure.

But isn't wood especially the really big and thick ones tougher than organic beings?

Faunus

Yeah...

Durasteel >> Stone >> Wood >> People.

Chick Magnet

And I loved it in Shatterpoint, when Mace busted out those crazy force moves on Kar Vastor and beat the shi...Oh Wait...he didn't, or in AOTC when he used his crazy force wave to blow away all those little droids and save the da...Oh Wait...he didn't. Or...or...how bout in Shatterpoint when he used his powaz to save those kids by simply lifting the crawler out of the lav...Oh Wait...he didn't, just like um any other time ever. See the difference between you using The Clone Wars and me using The Force Unleashed as its being accepted in the canon that the displays they put on in that game are accurate displays of their abilities especially Vaders whose feats that I showed happened in cutscenes.

Other then that we have Vader doing feats like this in other canon materials, in fact Vader performs nearly an exact same power in SOTME

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/81/Force_Ball.JPG

And we've seen NUMEROUS instances to where he uses his very superior TK abilities.

Show me ONE other canon piece, other then the CWC were Mace does ANYTHING near that. Sure he may have taken down the tank and the army, but he DIDN'T do it how he did in the CWC.

Yes, yes I did, by the wording Nick Rotsu gave who saw Kar Vastor obliterate Mace Windu in combat and who was a soldier in his army for years AND who was has been on the recieving end of a Vastor ass beating he gave this wording:

"There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

"Wouldn't stand a chance", that means he be beaten down in every possible way by Darth Vader

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor."

Note that this is the same man who tossed around Mace Windu like a toy:

"the Force whirled around him and Mace found himself wrenched off the ground, hurtling backwards through the air to slam against the tree...the whole tree shivered with impact...he managed to raise one gesture as though throwing a stone; Mace was whirled forward from the tree to crash against the skull of an astonished akk dog."

And this is the same man who is called by Mace's own admission:

Younger, faster, stronger, and more powerful." was someone Mace couldn't beat straight up on his best day and Nick knows this also.

So Kar Vastor despite being Younger, stronger, FASTER, and more powerful in the force then Mace Windu, "wouldn't stand a chance." against Darth Vader.

With that said, what is stopping Vader from destroying Mace with the force? Mace barely grounded Vastors force assualt and even in that case he couldn't completely stop it, how is he going to fair against someone who's stronger then Vastor with the force?

Oh yeah he seems real hard pressed here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9OJWljX6m4

And yeah he might be hard pressed to defeat Grievous without killing him, because that would be contradictory to Sidious's plans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XqKvKUTElA

What happened in the novel and what happened in the movie were two very different things, in the book Obi Wan is nearly beaten by the sheer amount of strikes Grievous is unleashing at once, yet in the movie he already has one hand off Grievous before the 15 second mark, and has Grievous retreating and with two hands left in a little over half a minute...so ah you WOULDN'T call that easy?

Super he's faster then Grievous, so is Obi Wan going by the movies...so um HOW does that make his godlike speed so superior to Vaders? Other then that how many upper tier duelist has Grievous faced? Mace owns him, Obi Wan owns him, Dooku owns him, he runs from Anakin and Obi Wan on the invisible hand, he Dooku says in LOE he'd get leeted if he tried to fight anyone of merit. The only person of note who he beats is Shaak Ti, and the only times they fight is when Grievous is leaping from the shadows and ceiling fighting the Jedi for the first time, and the following when Shaak Ti has been weakened by Magna Guards already

"Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remebered...but also more agile."

In addition to LS posted him taking on hundreds of bounty hunters and storm troopers, and Vader decimating without his saber on this:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/a/ac/The_squall.jpg

He then proceeds to kill those two and two more Jedi within a half of a page. He was able to match the speed and overpower Dark Woman who was powerful enough to become a force ghost after her death, not to mention being all around skilled. He was able to match the speed of Maul all throughout their duel till the very end, and at one point overpowered him, surprising the Prophets causing them to remark of equal they were. This the same Maul who decimated Anoon the most technically skilled duelist of the order (over that of Yoda and Mace). Finally this Maul was pure dark side, which if anything should have increased his power. Yet Vader can stand against him, and isn't totally in awe of speed like you'll claim he'll be against Mace.

I'm not saying Vader is faster then Mace by any means I'm saying he wont be insta outclassed like Ventress was when she fought Mace, he'll be able to fight evenly with Mace Windu for a time, just as he did with Maul, he'd realize he can't beat him with his saber then just murk him with the force.

"Vaders bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the Dark Side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses,his suit of armour and gadgets, which now seemed little more then an outfit."

By the end of the novel Vader is no longer bothered by the Suit.

Urm NO thats BULLSHIT and you know it, why didn't Mace do his feats in Geonosis he could have saved like you know 100+ Jedi with his awesome non existent leet force powers. The difference between my source and yours is the fact that mine are backed up by other pieces of canon, where as yours are...Not.

Vader would eventually lose a long straight saber duel, however, he'd decimate him with the force, and why would Vader even try to fight MACE WINDU in a saber duel, he KNOWS Mace is a renowned saber duelist he KNOWS about Mace's Vaapad and Shatterpoint abilities.

Blax_Hydralisk

Isn't Splinter of the Mind's Eye Retconned?

Chick Magnet

No.

Gideon

AC, I find the argument regarding Mace's feats sort've ridiculous. Clone Wars is canon and George Lucas himself commented that the power of the Jedi depicted in that cartoon is how he imagines "real" Jedi would be like. Mace is top tier as a combatant according to numerous sources and is one of the greatest and most accomplished swordsmen in history. Belittling his feats seems to promote the contrary.

Chick Magnet

I'd be cool with it if it was Yoda or someone NOTED for their force talent, Mace Windu is no Yoda in the force, he's no Anakin, he's not even a Kar Vastor, and yet he can do all the shit he displayed in the CWC? Bull. Why didn't he do any of that shit ANY other time when his life depended on it? I'll answer for you: because he can't. In Shatterpoint he notes how he is hard pressed to multi task in the force while trying to save those Balawi kids, then he can't even lift the landcrawler up with the force. Inconsistency/10

And even if it is canon that just makes Vastor even stronger for murking him and in turn makes Vader even stronger for being better then Vastor, Vader wins either way.

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Chick Magnet

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/81/Force_Ball.JPG
The thing is in the rise and fall of darth vader, vader was only able to conjure up that attack because of the kaiburr crystal.

I got the quote and i can post it if you want me to.

But again its very contradictory as it was stated vader can never summon lightning so it may be a completely different attack.

wookie calls it "kinetite" http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kinetite

And i have no idea where the hell did they get that info from.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
He then proceeds to kill those two and two more Jedi within a half of a page. He was able to match the speed and overpower Dark Woman who was powerful enough to become a force ghost after her death, not to mention being all around skilled. He was able to match the speed of Maul all throughout their duel till the very end, and at one point overpowered him, surprising the Prophets causing them to remark of equal they were. This the same Maul who decimated Anoon the most technically skilled duelist of the order (over that of Yoda and Mace). Finally this Maul was pure dark side, which if anything should have increased his power. Yet Vader can stand against him, and isn't totally in awe of speed like you'll claim he'll be against Mace.

Don't forget the dark womans ability to phase through solid metal which further shows that vader did defeat battle hardened experienced jedi.

Master Crimzon

AC, please post a rebuttal of my points too, okay?

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Gideon
Clone Wars is canon
the storys cannon, but im not sure the All the feats are.. i think they are admitidaly exagerated.. and i dnt think they will be that over the top in the new clone wars animation thats coming out.. but we will just have to wait and see.

but the only fair way to compare CWC Mace to Vader in terms of Force feats would be if we saw Vader in those cartoons as well, which we obviously will not.

Originally posted by Gideon
and George Lucas himself commented that the power of the Jedi depicted in that cartoon is how he imagines "real" Jedi would be like.
yes but its not how hes depicted jedis in the films which is the ultimate source.. like chick magnet has already pointed out, we didnt see Mace do anything even close to that on Geonosis in AOTC which he obviously would have if he could have, with hundreds of jedi lives at stake, including many young padawans.

Originally posted by Gideon
Mace is top tier as a combatant according to numerous sources and is one of the greatest and most accomplished swordsmen in history.

no ones denying this, and I think everyone here has agreed that Mace would beat Vader in a straight up lightsaber duel.(no force attacks involved)

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Faunus

Ignoring his lightsaber showings, the Force feats beginning at 3:05 pretty much speak for themselves. A 'hadoken' that breaks wood doesn't really compare to a sliding Force-crush that implodes eight super-battle droids, and Vader's Force-wave looks like a breeze compared to Windu's opening one.

BTW Vaders Force attcaks in TFU looked Very Powerful to me.. and I can easily see that kind of Power crushing many droids at once.

also we see Vader Force choking a Jedi. we have yet to see Mace dominate a jedi/dark jedi just using the Force, like weve seen Dooku do many times(to other quite powerful force users), and Vader in TFU.

RocasAtoll

He kills Vastor with the force. That's better than Vader's and Dooku's raping of Jedis trained for diplomacy and not war.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
He kills Vastor with the force. That's better than Vader's and Dooku's raping of Jedis trained for diplomacy and not war.

Huh? Sorry, but although I argued against Vader in this argument, this is... a bit ridiculous. Anakin was trained for 'diplomacy', right? So was Obi-Wan? Two people who Dooku curbstomped with the force at various points in his career. Asajj Ventress, what about her? I suppose she was meant to be a civil diplomat to the offices of Grand Master Yoda? Another person who Dooku tooled with the force.

Vader. Hmm... Roan Shyrne, you know the name? A combat-oriented Jedi who Vader killed with the force. Not to mention his various force-feats, like ripping a bridge to pieces and force-choking people lightyears away.

Elite Hunter

Except he doesn't kill Vastor. Vastor is taken to be tried for crimes against humanity and nothing is heard from him again. Even then Vastor's defeat wasn't exactly done due to Mace being strongeer than Kar.

Chick Magnet

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
AC, please post a rebuttal of my points too, okay?

Your both saying nearly the exact same things, theres no point in doing both I just chose Fanus's cause the BS level was much higher in his post. Using the Clone Wars Cartoon...lame.

I'm actually kinda tired of this argument, I've admitted in multiple instances that Vader would lose a saber duel to Mace, but its silly to think that Vader will just get diced in a few seconds by Mace's 1337 speed, thats simply straight up bukkake, as I've pointed out.

However Vader would smash him in a force fight, he's better then Vastor who molested Windu like he was a small child. Its simply illogical to say that Vader WOULDN'T beat Mace with the force.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Your both saying nearly the exact same things, theres no point in doing both I just chose Fanus's cause the BS level was much higher in his post. Using the Clone Wars Cartoon...lame.

Fair 'nuff. But, as Gideon had noted, the Clone Wars Cartoon is very much canon (and was overseen by Lucas himself), and represents his original vision for Jedi. It's just as fair as you using the Force Unleashed in your argument, because it represents characters using the force in an extreme, 'unleashed' manner that exaggerrates their abilities- the similarities between the Cartoon and the Force Unleashed, in terms of their relevancy on arguments, is staggering. Faunus' argument was very much fair.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
I'm actually kinda tired of this argument, I've admitted in multiple instances that Vader would lose a saber duel to Mace, but its silly to think that Vader will just get diced in a few seconds by Mace's 1337 speed, thats simply straight up bukkake, as I've pointed out.

I understand you're getting tired of the argument. But just to say- I don't think Vader will be "z0MG WTFpwned!" in three seconds- he'd put up a 'fight', but he has no chance- Mace simply holds all of the cards. He's faster, more agile, has the advantage of Vaapad, and has his shatterpoint ability- Vader was outclassed by a lesser opponent before (Maul), and would, most likely, lose to Mace in a fight ranging between the 30 seconds and the minute and a half fight. 'Decent', but not really a long fight.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
However Vader would smash him in a force fight, he's better then Vastor who molested Windu like he was a small child. Its simply illogical to say that Vader WOULDN'T beat Mace with the force.

1. You really do want me to have nightmares, right? Molseted Windu... ugh. Like someone could molest Samuel Jackson.

2. Vader has the edge in a force fight, but as Faunus and I have pointed out, it's not exactly a 'big' edge.

Oh, and you have yet to explain how come you think Vader could defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, seeing as Sidious is far faster and more mobile than Vader.

Completely off-topic: Although I don't live in the U.S, I'm an Obama supporter too.