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IG is probably more powerful, but how does the Warlogog compare?

They are very close.

Extant created a universe, and all in it with the Worlogog. That feat alone shows mastery over the same 'elements' as the IG itself.

Originally posted by Galan007
They are very close.

Extant created a universe, and all in it with the Worlogog. That feat alone shows mastery over the same 'elements' as the IG itself.

Except for the mind/soul, right?

IG. IMO it has shown much greater feats, such as just four gems creating tons of realities that would have collapsed the multiverse, and reversing the multiversal UN.

IMO, IG>Worlogog

Everything the Gog did was an incomplete Worlogog.

Worlogog.

Originally posted by guy222
IMO, IG>Worlogog Agreed. Battlewise it stomped the lot of marvel abstracts save Lt.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Everything the Gog did was an incomplete Worlogog. The ig was also incomplete.

Originally posted by cloud102
Except for the mind/soul, right?

How do you create a universe and all with in it with no souls or minds? He created flesh puppets?

Originally posted by fangirl101
How do you create a universe and all with in it with no souls or minds? He created flesh puppets? Does this dc artifact give you complete control over soul,mind,power,space,time, and reality?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Everything the Gog did was an incomplete Worlogog.
So you are claiming that we've never, ever seen a complete Worlogog?

Infinity Gauntlet

Originally posted by quanchi112
Does this dc artifact give you complete control over soul,mind,power,space,time, and reality? Yes. Again, Extant created an entire universe, and every sentient being within it, with the 'gog.

I thought it couldn't control souls

Originally posted by Utrigita
I thought it couldn't control souls How do you explain the creation of sentient beings?

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes. Again, Extant created an entire universe, and every sentient being within it, with the 'gog. Does this mean he has COMPLETE mastery over all the things I have described or does it only prove he can create a universe.

Which do you think is more versatile?

I have no idea, without getting into a philosophical explanation and that is not what we are here for, my take was that I have always looked at the Worlogog as a map in Space and Time of cause this would include Reality and Power "charting" as well, but I doesn't quiet see how souls fit in..

however I'm not sure that the Clones that Thanos created had souls, Adam Warlock didn't use his soul gem against any one of them.

It's funny, because the Worlog is a fraction of the Source (or so I've heard). And it doesn't even surpass the Infinity Gauntlet in terms of feats.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So you are claiming that we've never, ever seen a complete Worlogog?

The question isn't phrased correctly. We've never seen a complete Worlogog wielded by someone who knew what it was. Joker and Luthor barely tapped a fraction of the power. Hourman didn't use it for much and was frightened of using more.

Extant is the only person to really use the Gog at it's full potential. And that was an incomplete Gog.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Which do you think is more versatile? Feat-wise? The IG. I do think they'd be very close though.

Originally posted by Astner
It's funny, because the Worlog is a fraction of the Source A fraction of infinity, is still infinity.

So According to you Worlogog is equal to the source?

Originally posted by Galan007


A fraction of infinity, is still infinity.

I know this happened on panel, and was used to explain the flagrant usage of hyperbole in comics, but there isn't really such a thing as a fraction of infinity.

Well it happens all the time in comics so unless that was false all of those times we're going to have to use it this time too.

As an abstract term, "infinity" or "infinite" is correct, if ambiguous. When using the Marvel take on it by saying that there are multiple levels of infinity because a series of progressing numbers to infinity should logically have a larger set of numbers than a similar progression of even numbers, it becomes incorrect. Infinity itself is not a number, but rather an indefinitely extending process. This makes it logically meaningless and paradoxical to have half of an infinite process.

In comics, using such terms as hyperbole is fine. It is incorrect to assume Marvel's definition though, even if I understand their rationale.

Edit: While there are indeed different classes of infinity in a mathematical sense (set theory etc), it still doesn't make assumptions as to whether a certain set is > another.

Originally posted by Ouallada
I know this happened on panel, and was used to explain the flagrant usage of hyperbole in comics, but there isn't really such a thing as a fraction of infinity. To me a fraction of infinity isnt infinity. But comic book writers sometimes make us scratch our heads trying to understand their intentions.

There isn't such a thing as a fraction of infinity. There can be different infinite sets, though.

The writers' intentions are pretty clear -- to differentiate power levels, with all the hyperbole being thrown around. Something had to give.

Originally posted by Ouallada

As an abstract term, "infinity" or "infinite" is correct, if ambiguous.

When using the Marvel take on it by saying that there are multiple levels of infinity
because a series of progressing numbers to infinity
should logically have a larger set of numbers than a similar progression of even numbers,

it becomes incorrect.

Marvel's claim of levels of Infinity wasn't made up by Marvel,
it's actually based on a real theorem from the real world created by Georg Cantor.

This theorem has been widely accepted as a legitimate theorem since 1891,
even inducted into Princeton's curriculum (like Calculus)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Cantor's Theorem:

"The theorem is named for Georg Cantor, who first stated and proved it."


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/659/c2cf9.th.jpg:

As you can see, Marvel literally even uses his name.

=====================================

Originally posted by Mr Master
Marvel's claim of levels of Infinity wasn't made up by Marvel,
it's actually based on a real theorem from the real world created by Georg Cantor.

This theorem has been widely accepted as a legitimate theorem since 1891,
even inducted into Princeton's curriculum (like Calculus)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Cantor's Theorem:

"The theorem is named for Georg Cantor, who first stated and proved it."


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/659/c2cf9.th.jpg:

As you can see, Marvel literally even uses his name.

=====================================

Actually, Cantor's theorem was more of a philosophical argument than a mathematical one, and was derived to give the mathematical world an attainable infinity, in a nutshell. It may or may not hold true under all mathematical rules, but that has never stopped theorems from being inducted to the syllabus before. Descartes was destroyed by Nietzsche. Doesn't stop the cogito from being part of philosophy texts today either.

I'm not sure if you understand cantor's theorem and set theory well, but from what I understand, Cantor's theorem has many detractions indeed:

1) Formal conclusions reached via abstractions need to be translated back into real-world assertations. With computers providing a concrete mathematical base, the world of computations needs to be real and concrete as well, while Cantor's theorem gives us infinite sets and power sets of infinite sets. Useful, but ultimately fictional. Imaginary numbers are a good example here.

2) The rules of inference for abstractions have it that any statement about the infinite should have implications for approximations to the infinite.

3) Quotes from mathematicians and fellow philosophers:

"classical logic was abstracted from the mathematics of finite sets and their subsets...Forgetful of this limited origin, one afterwards mistook that logic for something above and prior to all mathematics, and finally applied it, without justification, to the mathematics of infinite sets. This is the Fall and original sin of set theory ..." (Weyl, 1946)

"We cannot use the modern axiomatic method to establish the theory of sets. We cannot, in particular, simply employ the machinery of modern logic, modern mathematical logic, in establishing the theory of sets" (Mayberry 2000, 7)

"Classical mathematics concerns itself with operations that can be carried out by God.. Mathematics belongs to man, not to God... When a man proves a positive integer to exist, he should show how to find it. If God has mathematics of his own that needs to be done, let him do it himself." (Errett Bishop (1967))

Basically, the big fuss is about whether or not true infinity exists, and that if Cantor were to argue for its existence (which the theories that you brought up are all linked to), he should be able to approximate such a number.

Originally posted by Ouallada

Actually, Cantor's theorem was more of a philosophical argument than a mathematical one, and was derived to give the mathematical world an attainable infinity, in a nutshell.
Actually, the mathematical formula based on the theorem is included.

Also, Marvel gives us on panel that portion of Cantor's theorem:


In Marvel, there are different levels of infinity: (omnipotence)

(based on Cantor's theorem)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6475/kkht2.th.jpg

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................


CONTINUES ...

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7586/ccdh3.th.jpg

Kubik finishes:

"Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity,

there are of course, an infinite number more"


..............................................................


Dr Strange corroborates this Marvel fact:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4600/infinitymoremx9.th.jpg

"the very Concept of Infinity is relative,

Numbers are Infinite, so are odd Numbers, yet by definition,

there are Twice as many Numbers as there are odd Numbers ...

One Infinity is included within a larger Infinity"

=====================================

Originally posted by Ouallada

It may or may not hold true under all mathematical rules, but that has never stopped theorems from being inducted to the syllabus before. Descartes was destroyed by Nietzsche. Doesn't stop the cogito from being part of philosophy texts today either.

I'm not sure if you understand cantor's theorem and set theory well, but from what I understand, Cantor's theorem has many detractions indeed:

1) Formal conclusions reached via abstractions need to be translated back into real-world assertations. With computers providing a concrete mathematical base, the world of computations needs to be real and concrete as well, while Cantor's theorem gives us infinite sets and power sets of infinite sets. Useful, but ultimately fictional. Imaginary numbers are a good example here.

2) The rules of inference for abstractions have it that any statement about the infinite should have implications for approximations to the infinite.

3) Quotes from mathematicians and fellow philosophers:

"classical logic was abstracted from the mathematics of finite sets and their subsets...Forgetful of this limited origin, one afterwards mistook that logic for something above and prior to all mathematics, and finally applied it, without justification, to the mathematics of infinite sets. This is the Fall and original sin of set theory ..." (Weyl, 1946)

"We cannot use the modern axiomatic method to establish the theory of sets. We cannot, in particular, simply employ the machinery of modern logic, modern mathematical logic, in establishing the theory of sets" (Mayberry 2000, 7)

"Classical mathematics concerns itself with operations that can be carried out by God.. Mathematics belongs to man, not to God... When a man proves a positive integer to exist, he should show how to find it. If God has mathematics of his own that needs to be done, let him do it himself." (Errett Bishop (1967))

Basically, the big fuss is about whether or not true infinity exists, and that if Cantor were to argue for its existence (which the theories that you brought up are all linked to), he should be able to approximate such a number.
I wasn't trying to prove whether it's right or wrong, or makes sense or not.

Just pointing out that Marvel did not invent this theory out of the air,
it's based on a theorem that's as widely accepted as the theorem of Calculus.

That's all.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, the mathematical formula based on the theorem is included.

Also, Marvel gives us on panel that portion of Cantor's theorem:


In Marvel, there are different levels of infinity: (omnipotence)

(based on Cantor's theorem)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6475/kkht2.th.jpg

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................


CONTINUES ...

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7586/ccdh3.th.jpg

Kubik finishes:

"Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity,

there are of course, an infinite number more"


..............................................................


Dr Strange corroborates this Marvel fact:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4600/infinitymoremx9.th.jpg

"the very Concept of Infinity is relative,

Numbers are Infinite, so are odd Numbers, yet by definition,

there are Twice as many Numbers as there are odd Numbers ...

One Infinity is included within a larger Infinity"

=====================================


I wasn't trying to prove whether it's right or wrong, or makes sense or not.

Just pointing out that Marvel did not invent this theory out of the air,
it's based on a theorem that's as widely accepted as the theorem of Calculus.

That's all.

It makes sense if you reject infinity as being abstract. It's just that it isn't really mathematically accepted nor correct, as with all unrefined philosophy.

Other than that, fair play.

Originally posted by Ouallada

It makes sense if you reject infinity as being abstract.
It's just that it isn't really mathematically accepted nor correct,
as with all unrefined philosophy.
Just cause a few mathematicians didn't agree with it,
doesn't mean it's not accepted.

It's also definitely not just a philosophical theory either,
there's clearly a formula that supposedly proves Cantor's theorem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Don't know if you overlooked that,
but it's not fair if the only segment of the link you went to
was the other link that leads to the perspective of those that disagree with his theorem.

I mean,
there's another side to that coin that not only agree,
but in fact,
they promote Cantor's theorem as a legitimate formula to be taken seriously.

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - Encyclopedia Britannica:


"German mathematician who founded set theory
and introduced the mathematically meaningful concept of transfinite numbers,
indefinitely large but distinct from one another."

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9020082/Georg-Cantor

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - Honerary member of the London Mathematical Society:


http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Societies/LMSHonorary.html

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - the prestigious PRINCETON University website:


"One of the greatest revolutions in mathematics occurred
when Georg Cantor (1845-1918)
promulgated his theory of transfinite sets."

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/4740.html

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - Applet--Magic.com

(site dedicated to Physics-Mathematics-Statistics)


"Georg Cantor's achievement in mathematics was outstanding.
He revolutionized the foundation of mathematics with set theory.
Set theory is now considered so fundamental,
that it seems to border on the obvious,
but at its introduction it was controversial and revolutionary.
The controversial element centered around the problem
of whether infinity was a potentiality or could be achieved.

Before Cantor,
it was generally felt that infinity as an actuality did not make sense;
one could only speak of a variable increasing,
without bound as that variable going to infinity.

Cantor not only found a way to make sense out an actual,
as opposed to a potential, infinity,
but showed that there are different orders of infinity"

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/cantorth.htm

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - Exploratorium

"In the years 1871-1884 Georg Cantor invented the theory of infinite sets."

http://www.exploratorium.edu/turbulent/CompLexicon/settheory.html

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - Even scholarships are given in this guys name.

"Historians of mathematics can only be grateful,
for the effort Professor Dauben has expended,
to create the synthesis of Cantor scholarship found in this book.
But the book can, and I hope will,
be read with profit by a far more extensive audience.

Any student, mathematician, philosopher, theologian, or general historian,
with an interest in Georg Cantor,
and the wondrous revolution in mathematical and philosophical thought
that his work did so much to precipitate will find this book of considerable interest."
--Thomas Hawkins, Historia Mathematica.
One of the greatest revolutions in mathematics occurred,
when Georg Cantor (1845-1918)
promulgated his theory of transfinite sets."

http://www.erraticimpact.com/~19thcentury/html/cantor.htm

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - "The Man who counted beyond Infinity"

Engines of Ingenuity by John Lienhard, at the University of Houston:

"By the time he was done,
Cantor had invented what we call the transfinite numbers --
numbers that go beyond infinity.
And to do that he'd had to invent set theory.
And set theory has become a building block of modern mathematics."

http://uh.edu/engines/epi1484.htm

...............................................................................................................


Just sayin.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So According to you Worlogog is equal to the source? Yes and no. Technically speaking, the Source is not bound by anything it is simply, infinite power. And while the 'gog may be able to do anything one can imagine it is still bound by just that - the imagination of the one using it.

Same could be said about the IG, I suppose - imagination is it's only real limitation. ermm

Originally posted by Ouallada
I know this happened on panel, and was used to explain the flagrant usage of hyperbole in comics, but there isn't really such a thing as a fraction of infinity. If I wanted to debate things in the 'real' sense, I certainly wouldn't be posting in the comic forums.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Just cause a few mathematicians didn't agree with it,
doesn't mean it's not accepted.

It's also definitely not just a philosophical theory either,
there's clearly a formula that supposedly proves Cantor's theorem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Don't know if you overlooked that,
but it's not fair if the only segment of the link you went to
was the other link that leads to the perspective of those that disagree with his theorem.

I mean,
there's aanother side to that coin that not only agree,
but in fact,
they promote Cantor's theorem as a legitimate formula to be taken seriously.

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - Encyclopedia Britannica:


"German mathematician who founded set theory
and introduced the mathematically meaningful concept of transfinite numbers,
indefinitely large but distinct from one another."

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9020082/Georg-Cantor

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - Honerary member of the London Mathematical Society:


http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Societies/LMSHonorary.html

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - the prestigious PRINCETON University website:


"One of the greatest revolutions in mathematics occurred
when Georg Cantor (1845-1918)
promulgated his theory of transfinite sets."

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/4740.html

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - Applet--Magic.com

(site dedicated to Physics-Mathematics-Statistics)


"Georg Cantor's achievement in mathematics was outstanding.
He revolutionized the foundation of mathematics with set theory.
Set theory is now considered so fundamental,
that it seems to border on the obvious,
but at its introduction it was controversial and revolutionary.
The controversial element centered around the problem
of whether infinity was a potentiality or could be achieved.

Before Cantor,
it was generally felt that infinity as an actuality did not make sense;
one could only speak of a variable increasing,
without bound as that variable going to infinity.

Cantor not only found a way to make sense out an actual,
as opposed to a potential, infinity,
but showed that there are different orders of infinity"

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/cantorth.htm

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - Exploratorium

"In the years 1871-1884 Georg Cantor invented the theory of infinite sets."

http://www.exploratorium.edu/turbulent/CompLexicon/settheory.html

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - Even scholarships are given in this guys name.

"Historians of mathematics can only be grateful,
for the effort Professor Dauben has expended,
to create the synthesis of Cantor scholarship found in this book.
But the book can, and I hope will,
be read with profit by a far more extensive audience.

Any student, mathematician, philosopher, theologian, or general historian,
with an interest in Georg Cantor,
and the wondrous revolution in mathematical and philosophical thought
that his work did so much to precipitate will find this book of considerable interest."
--Thomas Hawkins, Historia Mathematica.
One of the greatest revolutions in mathematics occurred,
when Georg Cantor (1845-1918)
promulgated his theory of transfinite sets."

http://www.erraticimpact.com/~19thcentury/html/cantor.htm

................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - "The Man who counted beyond Infinity"

Engines of Ingenuity by John Lienhard, at the University of Houston:

"By the time he was done,
Cantor had invented what we call the transfinite numbers --
numbers that go beyond infinity.
And to do that he'd had to invent set theory.
And set theory has become a building block of modern mathematics."

http://uh.edu/engines/epi1484.htm

...............................................................................................................


Just sayin.

I'm not going to indulge in a situation in which we both find quotes to substantiate a position. Those that I have provided are sound general rules of mathematics which none of yours have refuted thus far. That Cantor's theorem is at least partially philosophical in nature is indisputable, as there is no mathematical number for infinity. Without theorising infinity, it is impossible to compare an infinite set with another. I suggest you google up the philosophical portions of the theorem before suggesting otherwise.

Here is a paper written on the flaws of Cantor's theorem:

http://www.dataweb.nl/~cool/Papers/ALOE/2007-07-29-OnCantorsTheorem.pdf

As for scholarly accolades, I would bet my last dollar that Descartes has more attributed to his name than Cantor. Doesn't mean his cogito was correct either. The entire point of philosophy is to expand on unorthodox lines of thinking, flawed or otherwise.

If I may, do you have the slightest understanding of Cantor's theories and the counterarguments? If you do, I would like your take on them, not quotes of the man's accolades. If not, then I guess you have made your point on marvel using Cantor's theorems, but that you aren't really in a position to argue for or against the validity of said usage.

Originally posted by Ouallada

I'm not going to indulge in a situation in which we both find quotes to substantiate a position. Those that I have provided are sound general rules of mathematics which none of yours have refuted thus far. That Cantor's theorem is at least partially philosophical in nature is indisputable, as there is no mathematical number for infinity. Without theorising infinity, it is impossible to compare an infinite set with another. I suggest you google up the philosophical portions of the theorem before suggesting otherwise.

Here is a paper written on the flaws of Cantor's theorem:

As for scholarly accolades, I would bet my last dollar that Descartes has more attributed to his name than Cantor. Doesn't mean his cogito was correct either. The entire point of philosophy is to expand on unorthodox lines of thinking, flawed or otherwise.
Again, just presenting the other side of the coin.

You exclusively brought out the cats that disagree,
I provided the other perspective when other cats agree.
Originally posted by Ouallada

If I may, do you have the slightest understanding of Cantor's theories and the counterarguments? If you do, I would like your take on them, not quotes of the man's accolades. If not, then I guess you have made your point on marvel using Cantor's theorems, but that you aren't really in a position to argue for or against the validity of said usage.
I'm here to prove whether or not Cantor's theory is true, false or sensible.

I'm here to debate comics, Marvel cosmology related preferably.

My point from the beginning ws and still is,
Marvel did not create the idealism of "levels of infinity"
it is based on a real world theorem that's accepted by Princeton University
like the theorem of Calculus.

That is all.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Again, just presenting the other side of the coin.

You exclusively brought out the cats that disagree,
I provided the other perspective when other cats agree.

I'm here to prove whether or not Cantor's theory is true, false or sensible.

I'm here to debate comics, Marvel cosmology related preferably.

My point from the beginning ws and still is,
Marvel did not create the idealism of "levels of infinity"
it is based on a real world theorem that's accepted by Princeton University
like the theorem of Calculus.

That is all.

I didn't just bring up the "cats" that agree. I brought up real reasons why Cantor's theory is mathematically flawed, some in the form of quotes. Telling me about Cantor's accolades and insisting that it is non-philosophical does absolutely nothing for me.

You're here to debate Marvel cosmology, fair enough. As in my previous post, I've already mentioned that you have stated your point that marvel used said theories. As for whether the theory is true/false/logical, I see absolutely no need for the inundation of accolades, as well as a plethora of quotes that were on a subject that you don't want to debate, and which you would probably be out of your depth debating.

I don't think I ever stated that marvel created that theory. I stated that it was Marvel's take on the subject, which it evidently was, and I am saying that it isn't mathematically or philosophically perfect.

That's all she wrote.

Originally posted by Ouallada

I didn't just bring up the "cats" that agree. I brought up real reasons why Cantor's theory is mathematically flawed, some in the form of quotes. Telling me about Cantor's accolades and insisting that it is non-philosophical does absolutely nothing for me.

You're here to debate Marvel cosmology, fair enough. As in my previous post, I've already mentioned that you have stated your point that marvel used said theories. As for whether the theory is true/false/logical, I see absolutely no need for the inundation of accolades, as well as a plethora of quotes that were on a subject that you don't want to debate
Well, you agree with those that found "flaws" in it,
I agree with those that accepted it as a legitimate theorem like Calculus.

No harm done.
Originally posted by Ouallada

and which you would probably be out of your depth debating.
A bit presumptious no?

Let's not try to judge (or guess) the depths of my or anyone's debating format,
that's off-topic, and bordering on getting personal.


Anyway, if you're interested,
it's more like out of my present interest.
Originally posted by Ouallada

I don't think I ever stated that marvel created that theory. I stated that it was Marvel's take on the subject, which it evidently was, and I am saying that it isn't mathematically or philosophically perfect.

That's all she wrote.
Wonderful.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, you agree with those that found "flaws" in it,
I agree with those that accepted it as a legitimate theorem like Calculus.


I do not reject the theorem, simply state that there are flaws. The two are not mutually exclusive.


Originally posted by Mr Master

A bit presumptious no?

Let's not try to judge (or guess) the depths of my or anyone's debating format,
that's off-topic, and bordering on getting personal.


Seeing as you have shown no understanding of said theorem save quoting accolades, which I personally found to be demeaning for a person who isn't interested in talking about the man's awards, but the validity of his theory, and the fact that you couldn't grasp the fact that the theory was mathematical philosophy gives me a solid enough base for assumption. Of course, I fully apologise if you DO know more about this than you are letting on. However, seeing as you seemed to underestimate my knowledge on this matter (decent at least), which is about as personal as I got with you, I await reciprocation.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Wonderful.



I get that a lot.

Originally posted by Ouallada

I do not reject the theorem, simply state that there are flaws.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Cool. It's still part of the curriculum of prestigious Universities like Princeton.
Originally posted by Ouallada

Seeing as you have shown no understanding of said theorem save quoting accolades, which I personally found to be demeaning for a person who isn't interested in talking about the man's awards, but the validity of his theory, and the fact that you couldn't grasp the fact that the theory was mathematical philosophy gives me a solid enough base for assumption.
Whatever you say.
Originally posted by Ouallada

Of course, I fully apologise if you DO know more about this than you are letting on. However, seeing as you seemed to underestimate my knowledge on this matter (decent at least), which is about as personal as I got with you, I await reciprocation.
My response is simple.

Marvel has committed to the widely accepted (since 1891) real world theorem created by Cantor.

That's it.

So, Marvel has levels of infinity, that's a fact, and that's all she can write.
Originally posted by Ouallada

I get that a lot.
Likewise.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool. It's still part of the curriculum of prestigious Universities like Princeton.


Never said it wasn't. I don't see the need for repetition.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Whatever you say.


Correct.

Originally posted by Mr Master
My response is simple.

Marvel has committed to the widely accepted (since 1891) real world theorem created by Cantor.

That's it.


Which I have previously stated. I really don't see why you took more than 5 posts to reconcile the two.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So, Marvel has levels of infinity, that's a fact, and that's all she can write.


Which I have also already stated. Read above for my thoughts.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Likewise.

Empowerment by association.

In any case, I don't think we have much more to discuss here. As mentioned, anything you felt was personal wasn't meant that way. Cool?

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes and no. Technically speaking, the Source is not bound by anything it is simply, infinite power. And while the 'gog may be able to do anything one can imagine it is still bound by just that - the imagination of the one using it.
Who says that the fraction (piece) is still infinite? If there's an infinite set of odd numbers, and I remove the 1 3 and 5, then I took a piece of something infinite... and that piece is certainly not infinite.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Who says that the fraction (piece) is still infinite? If there's an infinite set of odd numbers, and I remove the 1 3 and 5, then I took a piece of something infinite... and that piece is certainly not infinite.

Kandy, it works something like this. Infinity by definition is a continuous, neverending progression. You can't halve an infinite number, because to do so would stop the progression (and you cannot halve a continually pregressing function), rendering the halved number finite, and thus the whole "half of infinity" thing meaningless.

In comics, though, I tend to subscribe to the view that there are levels of "infinity", if you will. The 'gog, while not infinite in the true meaning of the word, is only not so based on a technicality. It's still pretty damn powerful. I place it more around UN level, though.

Originally posted by Ouallada

Read above for my thoughts.
I did, very nice.
Originally posted by Ouallada

Empowerment by association.
cheers
Originally posted by Ouallada

In any case, I don't think we have much more to discuss here.
If it's not about comics, Marvel preferably, then I agree.
Originally posted by Ouallada

As mentioned, anything you felt was personal wasn't meant that way. Cool?
Cool.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Who says that the fraction (piece) is still infinite? I've stated my opinion on this a few times - not doing it again.

Originally posted by King Kandy
If there's an infinite set of odd numbers, and I remove the 1 3 and 5, then I took a piece of something infinite... and that piece is certainly not infinite. Trying to wrap numbers around the concept of infinity is pointless imo.

I just demonstrated that a piece of something infinite can be finite... of course you will ignore me and continue to state that since the Worlogog came from something infinite is must itself be infinite.

You know that THOTU powers all energy in the MU (or it did, anyway)? I guess that means that any lightbulb is as powerful as THOTU.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I just demonstrated that a piece of something infinite can be finite... of course you will ignore me and continue to state that since the Worlogog came from something infinite is must itself be infinite. I've not ignored a thing.

For the last time, here's the principle comics]..

If you have a variable of truly infinite energy , then you tear off a fragment of that truly infinite energy - the 'gog in turn, would be infinite as well. If it weren't, then the Source's energy would've never been infinite to begin with.

Anyhow, that's basically how I've seen this dilemma depicted in comics. Don't shoot the messenger.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You know that THOTU powers all energy in the MU (or it did, anyway)? Where was that stated?

Thanos stated it was the source of all energy and that he'd used math to discover it's existence. I'll see if I can find the scan.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Thanos stated it was the source of all energy and that he'd used math to discover it's existence. I'll see if I can find the scan. I remember Thanos stating that the Heart contained infinite energy - but I don't remember him saying it powered the MU.

The scans out there. I'll find it.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/mute-01-12-1.jpg

The godwave is part of the source, and guess what powers every super-power in the DCU? We've seen what Timazo and Extant did with the Gog, or at least part of it's power. To compare that to the UN is a joke. It's IG level. Whether it's stronger than the IG or not is up for debate. But it's easily around the same level.

Quan: That does not prove that it's the marvel equivalent of the Godwave.

The scan quanchi posted doesn't say anything about the heart powering Marvel.

And I agree for the most part Trick. Metron knows of objects such as the Genesis Box, which can "unmake a universe with a whisper." Yet he still refered to the 'gog as the most powerful item in the universe.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The godwave is part of the source, and guess what powers every super-power in the DCU? We've seen what Timazo and Extant did with the Gog, or at least part of it's power. To compare that to the UN is a joke. It's IG level. Whether it's stronger than the IG or not is up for debate. But it's easily around the same level.

Quan: That does not prove that it's the marvel equivalent of the Godwave. I wasnt saying it was the marvel equivalent of the godwave.


Heart>anything seen in comics.

Ig >worlogog as well imo.

Originally posted by King Kandy

The scans out there. I'll find it.
THOTI is/was:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/444349_thoti1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/444350_thoti2.jpg

"the Source from which all other power throughout Time & Space Springs"


====================================


Here's Thanos' 2008 bio: (at the bottom)

(Marvel.com character bios are identical to the Handbooks)


http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thanos

" ... Known as the Heart of the Universe,
from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates,
and thereby gained infinite power ..."

Thanks Mr. M. Ok, so that proves it's at least on par with the godwave, or equivalent to it.

Quan: shut up troll. doped

Originally posted by TricksterPriest

Thanks Mr. M.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest

Ok, so that proves it's at least on par with the godwave, or equivalent to it.
If the godwave makes one the Supreme being of the DC omniverse, then absolutely.

Originally posted by Mr Master
THOTI is/was:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/444349_thoti1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/444350_thoti2.jpg

"the Source from which all other power throughout Time & Space Springs"


====================================


Here's Thanos' 2008 bio: (at the bottom)

(Marvel.com character bios are identical to the Handbooks)


http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thanos

" ... Known as the Heart of the Universe,
from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates,
and thereby gained infinite power ..." Nicely done. I couldnt find the scans and didnt have the patience to search through every single page. Nice job Kandy and good memory.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Godwave1.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Godwave2.jpg

shifty

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Thanks Mr. M. Ok, so that proves it's at least on par with the godwave, or equivalent to it.

Quan: shut up troll. doped Nearly infinite isnt infinite.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Genesis2pg20.jpg

Heart>Ig>godwave

.... Interesting, I have to agree.

btw. Is Fifth World a Universe?

Is that what the Godwave can destroy if it explodes?

Who's that dude calling it the power of the Presence?

Has anyone else ever made that claim,
or was that dude hyperbolizing, or simply mistaken?

(because the Presence should be drawn to be infinite ... not near-infinite)

Originally posted by Mr Master
.... Interesting, I have to agree.

btw. Is Fifth World a Universe?

Is that what the Godwave can destroy if it explodes?

Who's that dude calling it the power of the Presence?

Has anyone else ever made that claim,
or was that dude hyperbolizing, or simply mistaken?

(because the Presence should be drawn to be infinite ... not near-infinite) My scan is from the title genesis while the scan erik put up is from a ww book. Ill pm you the other answers ok.

The presence is different than the source.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Nearly infinite isnt infinite.

Heart>Ig>godwave The Source is infinite though:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3285/ds1iy1.th.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
.... Interesting, I have to agree.

btw. Is Fifth World a Universe?

Is that what the Godwave can destroy if it explodes?

Who's that dude calling it the power of the Presence?

Has anyone else ever made that claim,
or was that dude hyperbolizing, or simply mistaken?

(because the Presence should be drawn to be infinite ... not near-infinite)

Ignore Quan. He's biased against DC and won't give you a straight answer.

Assuming the Fifth world shares the same properties as the 4th, it's a vast universe where planets in our universe are the size of marbles. Which gives you some idea of the New God's true scale. Also, it's completely separate from the main DCU.

The Godwave created all super powers and pantheons in the DCU. It was a burst of power originating from the Source. If it contracts (not explode), it destroys the universe and the 4th world with it.

The dude is Cronus, leader of the Titans, and he attempted to claim the power of the presence, since at that point he had overthrown most of heaven by stealing a portion of the godwave's power.

He was not hyperbolizing, he actually did try to take the power of the Presence. Asmodel is the only other being to attempt it, but Zauriel talked to him in the throne room and Asmodel realized that he couldn't win because the Presence was omnipresent and aware of all his actions.

Which is what happpened to Cronus. He thought he was taking the power of the presence, but the Presence chose to simply overload him with power and sensory overload. Basically, it was more than he could handle. Much like what happened when the Spectre attempted to become one with the Presence.

The Godwave is not the Presence, it is an aspect of the Source. The Source is a form of the Presence. The godwave is near-infinite, but again, the hyperbole should not be counted. What does count is that it is on-panel the power source for the super powers in the DCU.

Originally posted by Galan007
The Source is infinite though:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3285/ds1iy1.th.jpg The godwave isnt infinite. I proved it with my scan from genesis. Now do you think the Source contains infinite power?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Now do you think the Source contains infinite power? Yep.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ignore Quan. He's biased against DC and won't give you a straight answer.

Assuming the Fifth world shares the same properties as the 4th, it's a vast universe where planets in our universe are the size of marbles. Which gives you some idea of the New God's true scale. Also, it's completely separate from the main DCU.

The Godwave created all super powers and pantheons in the DCU. It was a burst of power originating from the Source. If it contracts (not explode), it destroys the universe and the 4th world with it.

The dude is Cronus, leader of the Titans, and he attempted to claim the power of the presence, since at that point he had overthrown most of heaven by stealing a portion of the godwave's power.

He was not hyperbolizing, he actually did try to take the power of the Presence. Asmodel is the only other being to attempt it, but Zauriel talked to him in the throne room and Asmodel realized that he couldn't win because the Presence was omnipresent and aware of all his actions.

Which is what happpened to Cronus. He thought he was taking the power of the presence, but the Presence chose to simply overload him with power and sensory overload. Basically, it was more than he could handle. Much like what happened when the Spectre attempted to become one with the Presence.

The Godwave is not the Presence, it is an aspect of the Source. The Source is a form of the Presence. The godwave is near-infinite, but again, the hyperbole should not be counted. What does count is that it is on-panel the power source for the super powers in the DCU. My scan proves that the godwave that powers the dcu is near infinite. So the power that gives every superpowered being its power isnt infinite itself.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yep. Proof?

Originally posted by Galan007
The Source is infinite though:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3285/ds1iy1.th.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
The Source is infinite though:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3285/ds1iy1.th.jpg

Heh.

I dunno if this is intentional or not, but it's a smart move.

I'd take Highfather's word over Darkseid, since Darkseid has claimed to be omnipotent.

Originally posted by Astner
I'd take Highfather's word over Darkseid, since Darkseid has claimed to be omnipotent. Christ.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest

Assuming the Fifth world shares the same properties as the 4th, it's a vast universe where planets in our universe are the size of marbles. Which gives you some idea of the New God's true scale. Also, it's completely separate from the main DCU.

The Godwave created all super powers and pantheons in the DCU. It was a burst of power originating from the Source. If it contracts (not explode), it destroys the universe and the 4th world with it.
Alright, I think I got that.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest

The dude is Cronus, leader of the Titans, and he attempted to claim the power of the presence, since at that point he had overthrown most of heaven by stealing a portion of the godwave's power.

He was not hyperbolizing, he actually did try to take the power of the Presence. Asmodel is the only other being to attempt it, but Zauriel talked to him in the throne room and Asmodel realized that he couldn't win because the Presence was omnipresent and aware of all his actions.

Which is what happpened to Cronus. He thought he was taking the power of the presence, but the Presence chose to simply overload him with power and sensory overload. Basically, it was more than he could handle. Much like what happened when the Spectre attempted to become one with the Presence.

The Godwave is not the Presence, it is an aspect of the Source. The Source is a form of the Presence. The godwave is near-infinite, but again, the hyperbole should not be counted. What does count is that it is on-panel the power source for the super powers in the DCU.
Cool thanx,
I just wanted to make sure cause it seems the Godwave
was being fallaciously presented as the power of the Presence.

Although, it was actually expected.. shifty

Thanx for the update,
do you have the scans to all this info,
if not, where can I find all this on panel?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ignore Quan. He's biased against DC and won't give you a straight answer.

Assuming the Fifth world shares the same properties as the 4th, it's a vast universe where planets in our universe are the size of marbles. Which gives you some idea of the New God's true scale. Also, it's completely separate from the main DCU.

The Godwave created all super powers and pantheons in the DCU. It was a burst of power originating from the Source. If it contracts (not explode), it destroys the universe and the 4th world with it.

The dude is Cronus, leader of the Titans, and he attempted to claim the power of the presence, since at that point he had overthrown most of heaven by stealing a portion of the godwave's power.

He was not hyperbolizing, he actually did try to take the power of the Presence. Asmodel is the only other being to attempt it, but Zauriel talked to him in the throne room and Asmodel realized that he couldn't win because the Presence was omnipresent and aware of all his actions.

Which is what happpened to Cronus. He thought he was taking the power of the presence, but the Presence chose to simply overload him with power and sensory overload. Basically, it was more than he could handle. Much like what happened when the Spectre attempted to become one with the Presence.

The Godwave is not the Presence, it is an aspect of the Source. The Source is a form of the Presence. The godwave is near-infinite, but again, the hyperbole should not be counted. What does count is that it is on-panel the power source for the super powers in the DCU.

I agree with this assessment. Tho something odd about the Godwave is that it was able to harm the source. Does this mean it was as powerful as the Source itself? It seems the Source is able to create things that surpass even it's own infinite might.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I agree with this assessment. Tho something odd about the Godwave is that it was able to harm the source. Does this mean it was as powerful as the Source itself? It seems the Source is able to create things that surpass even it's own infinite might. When was it stated that the Source had infinite power?

All of dcu's powers combined put together are less than infinite.

Originally posted by quanchi112
When was it stated that the Source had infinite power? You just not look at anything other people post, or what?

Originally posted by quanchi112
All of dcu's powers combined put together are less than infinite. What are you talking about?

Originally posted by Galan007
You just not look at anything other people post, or what?

What are you talking about? Darkseid's comments about the source being infinite is this what you meant? Is this your proof?



The godwave powers the entire dcu. If Darkseid was going to steal all of this power it still doesnt add up to limitless power. Genesis was quite a good read imo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Darkseid's comments about the source being infinite is this what you meant? Is this your proof? Highfather's comment that the Godwave is nigh-infinite, seemed to be good enough for you. So why should a comment made by Darky concerning the Source being 'infinite' be any different? Double standard, much?

Originally posted by quanchi112
The godwave powers the entire dcu. If Darkseid was going to steal all of this power it still doesnt add up to limitless power. Genesis was quite a good read imo. The Godwave gave power to the Gods/Pantheons, downward. Never was it mentioned that beings > the above, were powered by it.

So your statement that 'all' DC's powers are < infinite, is incorrect.

Originally posted by Galan007
Highfather's comment that the Godwave is nigh-infinite, seemed to be good enough for you. So why should a comment made by Darky concerning the Source being 'infinite' be any different? Double standard, much?

The Godwave gave power to the Gods/Pantheons, downward. Never was it mentioned that beings > the above, were powered by it.

So your statement that 'all' DC's powers are < infinite, is incorrect. High Father described the situation. He wasnt just making some off comment about the Source being infinite. Darkseid wasnt talking about the Source's power level being infinite, so if you think the Source is post proof otherwise concede.

Ds with near infinte power could dominate all of the dcu. Heh.


Oan energy etc was affected by the godwave, whom do you think wasnt in the dcu exactly?

So you think its just all of the gods and superheroes on down correct?

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Genesis4pg17-2.jpg

Originally posted by quanchi112
High Father described the situation. He wasnt just making some off comment about the Source being infinite. Considering what you're basing your argument on, this statement is laughable at best.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Darkseid wasnt talking about the Source's power level being infinite, so if you think the Source is post proof otherwise concede. Why don't you post something but a comment concerning the GW being nigh-infinite? See, I can do that too.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Oan energy etc was affected by the godwave, whom do you think wasnt in the dcu exactly? It says: "The great energy once channeled by the Guardians." Implying that they no longer utilize said energy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you think its just all of the gods and superheroes on down correct? In a nutshell.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Genesis4pg18.jpg

All life. Everything was at stake here. If Ares got his hands on the power of the godwave the dcu was screwed.

Those scans talk about the GW destroying everything .

Your original comment was that 'all' of DC's powers were less than infinite. There is no proof supporting such a claim .

Originally posted by Galan007
Considering what you're basing your argument on, this statement is laughable at best.

Why don't you post something but a comment concerning the GW being nigh-infinite? See, I can do that too.

It says: "The great energy once channeled by the Guardians." Implying that they no longer utilize said energy.

In a nutshell. It isnt laughable. High Father was describing a very specific event and the power that was at stake should Darkseid claim it.

Ds never said it had infinite power but High Father in this story called the full power of the godwave nigh infinite. I still woul d ike to know what you are basing that its infinite on? The Ds scan?

But all this energy when combined and if it was obtained by Ds would be enough to rule the dcu right?
The great energy the guardians used was from the godwave is my point.
Which being is more powerful than the full power of the godwave here in the dcu?

Originally posted by Galan007
Those scans talk about the GW destroying everything .

Your original comment was that 'all' of DC's powers were less than infinite. There is no proof supporting such a claim . Ok well the full power of the godwave which was less than infinite >any other dcu being.

Which beings arent powered by the Source? Name three or four. I am curious as to who you think didnt receive their power from the godwave.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It isnt laughable. High Father was describing a very specific event and the power that was at stake should Darkseid claim it.

Ds never said it had infinite power but High Father in this story called the full power of the godwave nigh infinite. I still woul d ike to know what you are basing that its infinite on? The Ds scan?

But all this energy when combined and if it was obtained by Ds would be enough to rule the dcu right?
The great energy the guardians used was from the godwave is my point.
Which being is more powerful than the full power of the godwave here in the dcu? I could take the time to answer these questions/statements, but deep down I know it wouldn't do any good - so I'm going to conclude my posting in this thread. Hopefully someone else will take the time to do so.

Godspeed quanchi!

Originally posted by Galan007
I could take the time to answer these questions/statements, but deep down I know it wouldn't do any good - so I'm going to conclude my posting in this thread. Hopefully someone else will take the time to do so.

Godspeed quanchi! Id like to hear it so please go ahead. I backed my opinion and if you prove me wrong Ill concede as I havent read anywhere near close to everything.

If you dont want to debate and just want to chime in and say that the Source is infinite but not back it up its cool.

Take care friend.

Originally posted by Galan007
Highfather's comment that the Godwave is nigh-infinite, seemed to be good enough for you. So why should a comment made by Darky concerning the Source being 'infinite' be any different? Double standard, much?

So it was intentional afterall, and he fell right into it

Let me make something very clear, for a certain dim-bulb who's not seeing it.

The Green Lantern corp's power was responsible for Parallax and Ion. The Godwave powers them. Either of those 2 alone, would be enough to declare it near-infinite/infinite. But it also powers all the lantern corps, the Quantum field, the speed force, Superman and kryptonians, Entropy, the New Gods etc, etc, etc, etc, ETC.

The Godwave is ALL of those things.

That's every super power and almost every super powered entity in the DCU. NUFF SAID.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yep.

So true, The Source and The Presence one and the same. I'll show some interesting scans later today.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Let me make something very clear, for a certain dim-bulb who's not seeing it.

The Green Lantern corp's power was responsible for Parallax and Ion. The Godwave powers them. Either of those 2 alone, would be enough to declare it near-infinite/infinite. But it also powers all the lantern corps, the Quantum field, the speed force, Superman and kryptonians, Entropy, the New Gods etc, etc, etc, etc, ETC.

The Godwave is ALL of those things.

That's every super power and almost every super powered entity in the DCU. NUFF SAID. You mean it created the speedforce, an INFINITE realm of velocity that feeds all motion in reality!?

http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jla82kebbin017bi.jpg

Amazing.

Originally posted by Juntai
You mean it created the speedforce, an INFINITE realm of velocity that feeds all motion in reality!?

http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jla82kebbin017bi.jpg

Amazing.

How dare you oppose what Highfather said. Everybody knows we should take what characters says as granted. dur

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
How dare you oppose what Highfather said. Everybody knows we should take what characters says as granted. dur Make that one character, as opposed to all of the other evidence.

Originally posted by Juntai

You mean it created the speedforce, an INFINITE realm of velocity that feeds all motion in reality!?

http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jla82kebbin017bi.jpg

Amazing.
Wut up good friend.


Hey Jun, if the godwave created everything, what did the Presence create?

Or the Source?

I though Michael created everything/sustains everything,
but that's contradictory to the godwave empowering everything.


Beyond that,
how would you differentiate the three?

Also,
what role does the GEB/Michael/Lucifer/Word/Logos/gog play in conjunction with the above?

One more, how does the Ultimator fit into all this
since I've heard it is the embodiment of everything?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wut up good friend.


Hey Jun, if the godwave created everything, what did the Presence create?

Or the Source?

I though Michael created everything/sustains everything,
but that's contradictory to the godwave empowering everything.


Beyond that,
how would you differentiate the three?

Also,
what role does the GEB/Michael/Lucifer/Word/Logos/gog play in conjunction with the above?

One more, how does the Ultimator fit into all this
since I've heard it is the embodiment of everything? DC comics, tends to ignore what happens in the Vertigo titles, and vice versa, in fact, the editors claim it's not even the same reality, which is wierd to explain to people and have them understand it because some events seem to happen in both Universes. The explanation is that many characters and events are similar, but are seperated by artistic depiction. As such, a Vertigo writer can grab a DC character and start writing whatever they want, without a worry about continuity in the slightest. For example; Wesley Dodds has been DEAD in DC for some time, but they still write stories for him in Vertigo. Deadman is Boston Brand in DC, but in Vertigo it's Brandon Cayce. When one company has a title about a character, the other temporarily 'loses' it's rights so as not to confuse people. Vertigo and DC are entirely different entities. And although the pieces fit sometimes, they should remain seperate for the most part.

This is at least how it is now, when the Vertigo imprint was originally made, it wasn't altogether 'out of continuity', it was merely the "Adult" imprint, where stories that had things too graphic or themes too mature for an average kid reader to purchase. Many tales prior to it's formation where moved to this, and some still have effects in continuity, as such- Sandman and Animal are pretty much entrenched in continuity, however "Lucifer" as a solo endeavor, was launched and reigned during the more modern "Out of Continuity" era, despite it's close connection to Sandman- which indeed was a major selling point for the series. However it's events that aren't covered in "The Sandman", particularly, have never been seen or counted in DC continuity.


All of the above, the Source, the Word, The Logoz, THe Hand, The Earthborn Angels, the Godboy, The Voice, The Spectre/Wrath and pretty much every godly-type body and being linked to god, are written to be fragments of the true supreme being of a Judeo-Christian belief.

And the Godwave is contradictory to a lot of stuff, both now and then when it was released, but certainly seems to still be in continuity, afaik. As such, it created the power that the OAN battery holds? Well, the OAN battery is a represention of the combined willpower of the universe. The Godwave created willpower in the universes creatures? Hmm. There was a lot of inconsistancies in that story. Great read though!

Originally posted by Juntai
DC comics, tends to ignore what happens in the Vertigo titles, and vice versa, in fact, the editors claim it's not even the same reality, which is wierd to explain to people and have them understand it because some events seem to happen in both Universes. The explanation is that many characters and events are similar, but are seperated by artistic depiction. As such, a Vertigo writer can grab a DC character and start writing whatever they want, without a worry about continuity in the slightest. For example; Wesley Dodds has been DEAD in DC for some time, but they still write stories for him in Vertigo. Deadman is Boston Brand in DC, but in Vertigo it's Brandon Cayce. When one company has a title about a character, the other temporarily 'loses' it's rights so as not to confuse people. Vertigo and DC are entirely different entities. And although the pieces fit sometimes, they should remain seperate for the most part.

This is at least how it is now, when the Vertigo imprint was originally made, it wasn't altogether 'out of continuity', it was merely the "Adult" imprint, where stories that had things too graphic or themes too mature for an average kid reader to purchase. Many tales prior to it's formation where moved to this, and some still have effects in continuity, as such- Sandman and Animal are pretty much entrenched in continuity, however "Lucifer" as a solo endeavor, was launched and reigned during the more modern "Out of Continuity" era, despite it's close connection to Sandman- which indeed was a major selling point for the series.


All of the above, the Source, the Word, The Logoz, THe Hand, The Earthborn Angels, the Godboy, The Voice, The Spectre/Wrath and pretty much every godly-type body and being linked to god, are written to be fragments of the true supreme being of a Judeo-Christian belief.

And the Godwave is contradictory to a lot of stuff, both now and then when it was released, but certainly seems to still be in continuity, afaik. As such, it created the power that the OAN battery holds? Well, the OAN battery is a represention of the combined willpower of the universe. The Godwave created willpower in the universes creatures? Hmm. There was a lot of inconsistancies in that story. Great read though!

I took the Godwave to be the spark that starts the fire, but the source sustains the blaze.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wut up good friend.


Hey Jun, if the godwave created everything, what did the Presence create?

Or the Source?

I though Michael created everything/sustains everything,
but that's contradictory to the godwave empowering everything.


Beyond that,
how would you differentiate the three?

Also,
what role does the GEB/Michael/Lucifer/Word/Logos/gog play in conjunction with the above?

One more, how does the Ultimator fit into all this
since I've heard it is the embodiment of everything?
The Ultimator is everything in the sense that she is everything from the 10th dimension on down. Micheal would be the power that created the Ultimator and everything else. The source is the energy field that supplies all other energy fields and power sources. Magic, speed force, etc. The Godwave is merely the jumpstart power.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
So it was intentional afterall, and he fell right into it Darkseid wasnt talking about anything specifically is the point. High Father described the source and what the actual godwave was and how powerful darkseid would become if he got all this power.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Let me make something very clear, for a certain dim-bulb who's not seeing it.

The Green Lantern corp's power was responsible for Parallax and Ion. The Godwave powers them. Either of those 2 alone, would be enough to declare it near-infinite/infinite. But it also powers all the lantern corps, the Quantum field, the speed force, Superman and kryptonians, Entropy, the New Gods etc, etc, etc, etc, ETC.

The Godwave is ALL of those things.

That's every super power and almost every super powered entity in the DCU. NUFF SAID. Altogether is nigh infinite but not quite infinite.

Originally posted by Juntai
You mean it created the speedforce, an INFINITE realm of velocity that feeds all motion in reality!?

http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jla82kebbin017bi.jpg

Amazing. I am talking about infinite power not velocity.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
How dare you oppose what Highfather said. Everybody knows we should take what characters says as granted. dur High Father described the powers or the power of the godwave specifically. It wasnt hyperbole.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Darkseid wasnt talking about anything specifically is the point. High Father described the source and what the actual godwave was and how powerful darkseid would become if he got all this power.

Altogether is nigh infinite but not quite infinite.

I am talking about infinite power not velocity.

High Father described the powers or the power of the godwave specifically. It wasnt hyperbole.

If anyone else says it's infinite, then you'd call bullshit and say DC powers aren't infinite. You are as transparent as the Air.

Originally posted by fangirl101
If anyone else says it's infinite, then you'd call bullshit and say DC powers aren't infinite. You are as transparent as the Air. My scan is talking about a specific event and the ramifications of tha event.

The other scan was darkseid just making a comment about nothing in particular.


Huge difference imo.