Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

LT gets a one-minute prep before fighting GEB.

Who wins??

The-One-Above-All = Supreme

The Living Tribunal = Second only to the supreme

Presence = Not supreme

GEB + The Light = Presence
_________________________________________________

Other than that I'd like to see some feats of the Beast.

Originally posted by Astner
The-One-Above-All = Supreme

The Living Tribunal = Second only to the supreme

Presence = Not supreme

GEB + The Light = Presence
_________________________________________________

Other than that I'd like to see some feats of the Beast. How about pwning an amped Spectre?

So did Mxyzptlk, now didn't he?

Spectre in World's funnest said that he did his best, called on his master to if I'm not mistaeken.

World's Funnest is not canon

Emperor Joker then?

Yeah but didn't Joker also have Bat-Mite's power then?

The Beast.

"Yeah but didn't Joker also have Bat-Mite's power then?"- endless mike

batmites a part of Mxy's power, thats why he refers to the little chunk of power joker had left as a piece of him
its on the mxy respect thread

TGEB eats him alive.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
World's Funnest is not canon Says who?

GEB for the win

Originally posted by Astner
The-One-Above-All = Supreme

The Living Tribunal = Second only to the supreme

Presence = Not supreme

GEB + The Light = Presence
_________________________________________________

Other than that I'd like to see some feats of the Beast.


Oh rily?

Originally posted by george '06
batmites a part of Mxy's power, thats why he refers to the little chunk of power joker had left as a piece of him
its on the mxy respect thread At least someone's been paying attention.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

Oh rily?

Yeah the most silly attempt of making a hierarchy i've ever seen, maybe I should tell him just The Light = The Presence

Living Tribunal.

So .. nobody making a case for GEB ?

Okay then, GEB wins. Anyone willing to debate that Living Tribunal wins ?

Astner will.

However, the stars arre aligning in just the right way and coinciding with that, i agree with Erik. The Great Evil Beast takes this.

As for feats for GEB Astner...he beat a horde of Angels and mages with his thumb. I know LT has galaxies of energy coursing through his fingers or whatever but GEB's feat is still nice.

LT eats him.

OK, lets straighten out the facts, shall we?

The current Yahweh of Vertigo is the result of the Great Evil Beast and the Ultimate Light merging--scans can be found in the respect thread of the Great Evil Beast by Endless Mike.

Light + GEB = Yahweh -- 1 + 1 = 2

So obviously Yahweh would be above them (Light and GEB) both. Both were powerful, and both were limited*, obviously the result would be greater than each one of them.

Yahweh > Light = GEB -- 2 > 1 = 1

Yahweh's flaws from Vertigo proves that he was in fact not omnipotent, there were tasks he was incapable of preforming shaping himself for one (he needed Lucifer's help).

Supreme > Yahweh

I'm not saying that the Living Tribunal would win, there's an endless amount of stages between him and the supreme. But so is it also between Yahweh and the supreme and the GEB and the supreme.

So, kids, remember this.

Infinite + Infinite = 2 * Infinite

2 * Infinite > Infinite

(I'm not even going to get into the 'Presence isn't supreme' crap )

Erik,
I would like to know why you think LT would win against GEB.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Erik,
I would like to know why you think LT would win against GEB.

I don't.

But lately, I decided to debate what I think to be false. You might have noticed this in other threads also

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
So, kids, remember this.

Infinite + Infinite = 2 * Infinite

2 * Infinite > Infinite
You may not realize it but this is true.

If you want to make an infinity greater you either have to add another infinity, multiply with a number greater than one or square with a number greater than one.

However, the chances of -- 2 * infinity > infinity, if they're completely separate it's only 67% chance that the 2 * infinity is greater than the infinity.

For instance, all numbers between 0 and 1 is infinity. All numbers between 1 and 3 is infinity. Which is the greater? It's impossible to tell, but probability tells us that the infinity numbers between 1 and 3 are 67% to be greater than the former.

If we now said all numbers between 1 and 2, and 1 and 3, the numbers between 1 and 2 would be a part of 1 to 3, hence making it certain that all numbers in-between 1 and 3 > all numbers inbetween 1 and 2.

This is the case of Yahweh, as he has both the Light and GEB's infinity within him. Meaning the probability of it being greater than any of the other infinities is 100%.

It's called transfinite numbers, and they extend infinity.


I stated my case, with references (the scans in my signature). Whether or not you want to counter it is irrelevant. But as long as it's not disproven, my case stands.

^This actually makes sense.

Too bad the number analogy is irrelevant, since it has nothing to do with the thread and the Yahweh/Ultimate Light/Great Evil Beast. Why ? Because in this case, the 'Infinite power' and Omnipotence encompasses everything so you can't compare one infinity to another since they are the same, containing everything.

Many scans in your signature are taken out of context, with personal interpretations and speculations on what they actually mean, in order to make Yahweh look weaker than he actually is. It's pretty sad really, since pretty much everybody can see that.

Originally posted by illadelph12
^This actually makes sense.

In this context, it doesn't.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
In this context, it doesn't.

So you're of the school of thought that there can be no degrees of infinity? All infinities are equal?

Originally posted by illadelph12
So you're of the school of thought that there can be no degrees of infinity? All infinities are equal?

Where did I say that ?

Originally posted by Astner
OK, lets straighten out the facts, shall we?

The current Yahweh of Vertigo is the result of the Great Evil Beast and the Ultimate Light merging--scans can be found in the respect thread of the Great Evil Beast by Endless Mike.

Light + GEB = Yahweh -- 1 + 1 = 2

So obviously Yahweh would be above them (Light and GEB) both. Both were powerful, and both were limited*, obviously the result would be greater than each one of them.

Yahweh > Light = GEB -- 2 > 1 = 1

Yahweh's flaws from Vertigo proves that he was in fact not omnipotent, there were tasks he was incapable of preforming shaping himself for one (he needed Lucifer's help).

Supreme > Yahweh

I'm not saying that the Living Tribunal would win, there's an endless amount of stages between him and the supreme. But so is it also between Yahweh and the supreme and the GEB and the supreme.

Yhwh/The Presence/The Light never merged with TGEB then became YHWH, The Presence = YHWH, The Great Evil Beast left Heaven and returned beyond Hell after the conflict, where it has stayed ever since

Originally posted by kevdude
Yhwh/The Presence/The Light never merged with TGEB then became YHWH, The Presence = YHWH, The Great Evil Beast left Heaven and returned beyond Hell after the conflict, where it has stayed ever since
Now it's revealed that the GEB and Presence actually merged together, so now good and evil coexist in everything.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/gebpresencemerged.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/gebpresencemerged1.jpg

Finally the threat is over.... for the time being.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/cainabel.jpg
I rest my case.

Originally posted by Astner
I rest my case.

They gave a piece of each other to the other to have a truce for the time being nothing more, certainly never merged and Lucifer himself in the Sandman series confirms this

You stated this of the relationship between GEB, The Light, and Yahweh, which Astner describes in his above post:



Astner references scans and on panel evidence that would suggest that GEB is not all encompassing, though it is infinite. Your opinion is that this is not the case and GEB is all encompassing.

Given the nature of the character (GEB), the nature of his opponent (LT), and the context of this thread (a confrontation), how does degrees of infinity, when dealing with two infinitely powerful beings, become irrellevent? And how, by your own accounting, can GEB be all encompassing, when he only encompasses infinite darkness?

Also, I'm simply asking questions. I'm not choosing sides. I'm just trying to understand your point of view.

I was talking about power, that's why I said 'Because in this case, the 'Infinite power' and Omnipotence encompasses everything'. Not encompassing in the Eternity-type of fashion.

What's my point of view in this 'infinite' discussion ? Well, depending on the context and subject being talked about, it is possible for there to be 'degrees of infinity', in mathematics etc.

And from your reply I now realize that you haven't actually followed what we were talking about. Living Tribunal wasn't the subject of the discussion, but the logic Astner used in order to deduct that Great Evil Beast isn't as powerfull as Yahweh.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Too bad the number analogy is irrelevant, since it has nothing to do with the thread and the Yahweh/Ultimate Light/Great Evil Beast. Why ? Because in this case, the 'Infinite power' and Omnipotence encompasses everything so you can't compare one infinity to another since they are the same, containing everything.
You're not actually making a debate, unless you tend to base it on your own ignorance.
The number-analogy is relevant because of the fact that there can exist greater infinities.
Neither of them were everything, not before and not after. The GEB wasn't the Light, and the Light wasn't GEB, they acted outside eachother's will.
This can futher be proven due to the fact that Yahweh confirmed he wasn't omnipotent. The result of two infinite beings resulted in another infinite being--none of them omnipotent.

In short: The Light wasn't omnipotent because it couldn't control GEB. GEB wasn't omnipotent because he couldn't control the Light. And Yahweh isn't omnipotent by his own confirmation.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Many scans in your signature are taken out of context, with personal interpretations and speculations on what they actually mean, in order to make Yahweh look weaker than he actually is. It's pretty sad really, since pretty much everybody can see that.
Ah, I see you're pulling another fallacy. "Appeal to majority" is it? You also seem to end it with a strawman (that would be two fallacies) but I'm not sure, the last is quite vague.
But then again, when the amount of information and evdience fails you, where else to turn than to a fallacy?

None of the scans in the thread are taken out of context. Or could you perhaps prove me wrong? I think not.
Yahweh's own words--
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/3489/presey1.jpg

Yahweh can't mold himself, he needs Lucifer's help.

In how many ways can this be interpreted, how much speculation would change this fact? None. He was inable of commiting an act, he's not omnipotent.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I was talking about power, that's why I said 'Because in this case, the 'Infinite power' and Omnipotence encompasses everything'. Not encompassing in the Eternity-type of fashion.

What's my point of view in this 'infinite' discussion ? Well, depending on the context and subject being talked about, it is possible for there to be 'degrees of infinity', in mathematics etc.

And from your reply I now realize that you haven't actually followed what we were talking about. Living Tribunal wasn't the subject of the discussion, but the logic Astner used in order to deduct that Great Evil Beast isn't as powerfull as Yahweh.

Understood. I was speaking solely on the premise and context of this particular battle thread (LT Vs. GEB). If you and Astner have an ongoing discussion regarding the nature of GEB & Yahweh's relationship, etc, I have no part in that.

Nobody is debating whether or not there can not exist greater infinities but not in this context.
And you seem to have missed my point, as I'm not actually talking about what each of them are encompassing, since it's obvious that one was the Ultimate Light, while the other was Ultimate Darkness.
I'm talking strictly about power, and how could adding something to God's already Ultimate Power increase his power even further ? That power is the ultimate degree of infinity, you can't surpass that.
Ultimate Light & Ultimate Darkness were opposites, shadow partners as it was put, Good and Evil. The story was all about their 'relationship' and balance between this forces. A representation of the ultimate 'ying and yang'. They were both absolute. They are locked in an eternal struggle, each of them being necessary. http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_17-Page16-1.jpg

You seem to be under the impression that the 'struggle', the conflict between them is based on power and thus you are under the impression that since they are 'equally powerfull' then that means that neither of them was 'supreme', the 'absolute, ultimate power'. Well, that's not the case here. Their conflict was purely abstract, philosophical. As Great Evil Beast put it "Is he you serve so high that there can be no posiblity of respect between us ?". http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_22-Page21-1.jpg
And the result of that conflict, the summary is made by a metaphor used by Phantom Stranger : In the heart of darkness, a flower blossoms, enriching the shadows with its promise of hope .. In the fields of light, an adder coils, and the radiant tranquillity is lent savor by its sinister presence."http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_38-Page37.jpg

Their merging, each of them flowing into eachother, shouldn't be put in simple terms such as power + power = more power. It is a more complex one. Although, this might have gotten too complex for you to understand, so I'm just going to stop here with this, and hope that some comprehend what I'm saying

-------


Now, unto your 'Yahweh isn't supreme' arguments that you used in the 'disrespect thread'.

But even I was shaped by forces external to me

You speculate and assume that those forces are superior to Yahweh. I already responded to this point on other threads and presented my view on what these statement meant.

Those forces are actually Ultimate Light and Ultimate Darkness, and when they were 'running together' as it was put, a new being, Yahweh was formed. The fact that Yahweh even says to Lucifer 'You know what they are" further sustains my theory. How would Lucifer be aware of these other forces ? It's obviously that nobody from within Yahweh's creation has actually shaped Yahweh, and Lucifer hasn't actually met anybody in the void who could have done this. So of who are those forces that Lucifer is aware of that could have shaped Yahweh in what he was then ?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Lucifer18.jpg

"The Dark, the Shadow Creature, came forth to challenge Heaven. The episode ended in .. perhaps a stalemate"

Yahweh saying that nobody can be his own maker ? That everybody was, at some point, shaped by something else ? I don't really need to respond to this, do I ?

Yahweh's lack of awarness when Elaine explains what Lucifer sent to him means that he is not Omniscient

Anybody who's actually read the story would know what Yahweh made it so that he would not be Omniscient. He wanted to experience randomness, he wanted to disconnect himself.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Omniscience1.jpg

Yahweh wanting to exchange memories with Lucifer and become 2 new beings

Before Yahweh disconnected himself from Creation and gave up his Omniscience, it was clearly stated that everything that Lucifer did was part of the plan, that everything was foreseen. Only after he left creation, what Lucifer did was outside of what Yahweh told him to do, in the end, finally escaping the plan and leaving into the void. The rebellion, everything that happened prior to him leaving was because he made it so. He pointed out that everything he did had a point.

(This post took longer than I expected)

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Nobody is debating whether or not there can not exist greater infinities but not in this context.
And you seem to have missed my point, as I'm not actually talking about what each of them are encompassing, since it's obvious that one was the Ultimate Light, while the other was Ultimate Darkness.
I'm talking strictly about power, and how could adding something to God's already Ultimate Power increase his power even further ? That power is the ultimate degree of infinity, you can't surpass that.
Ultimate Light & Ultimate Darkness were opposites, shadow partners as it was put, Good and Evil. The story was all about their 'relationship' and balance between this forces. A representation of the ultimate 'ying and yang'. They were both absolute. They are locked in an eternal struggle, each of them being necessary. http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_17-Page16-1.jpg

You seem to be under the impression that the 'struggle', the conflict between them is based on power and thus you are under the impression that since they are 'equally powerfull' then that means that neither of them was 'supreme', the 'absolute, ultimate power'. Well, that's not the case here. Their conflict was a purely abstract, philosophical. As Great Evil Beast put it "Is he you serve so high that there can be no posiblity of respect between us ?". http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_22-Page21-1.jpg
And the result of that conflict, the summary is made by a metaphor used by Phantom Stranger : In the heart of darkness, a flower blossoms, enriching the shadows with its promise of hope .. In the fields of light, an adder coils, and the radiant tranquillity is lent savor by its sinister presence."http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_38-Page37.jpg

Their merging, each of them flowing into eachother, shouldn't be put in simple terms such as power + power = more power. It is a more complex one. Although, this might have gotten too complex for you to understand, so I'm just going to stop here with this, and hope that some comprehend what I'm saying

-------


Now, unto your 'Yahweh isn't supreme' arguments that you used in the 'disrespect thread'.

But even I was shaped by forces external to me

You speculate and assume that those forces are superior to Yahweh. I already responded to this point on other threads and presented my view on what these statement meant.

Those forces are actually Ultimate Light and Ultimate Darkness, and when they were 'running together' as it was put, a new being, Yahweh was formed. The fact that Yahweh even says to Lucifer 'You know what they are" further sustains my theory. How would Lucifer be aware of these other forces ? It's obviously that nobody from within Yahweh's creation has actually shaped Yahweh, and Lucifer hasn't actually met anybody in the void who could have done this. So of who are those forces that Lucifer is aware of that could have shaped Yahweh in what he was then ?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Lucifer18.jpg

"The Dark, the Shadow Creature, came forth to challenge Heaven. The episode ended in .. perhaps a stalemate"

Yahweh saying that nobody can be his own maker ? That everybody was, at some point, shaped by something else ? I don't really need to respond to this, do I ?

Yahweh's lack of awarness when Elaine explains what Lucifer sent to him means that he is not Omniscient

Anybody who's actually read the story would know what Yahweh made it so that he would not be Omniscient. He wanted to experience randomness, he wanted to disconnect himself.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Omniscience1.jpg

Yahweh wanting to exchange memories with Lucifer and become 2 new beings

Before Yahweh disconnected himself from Creation and gave up his Omniscience, it was clearly stated that everything that Lucifer did was part of the plan, that everything was foreseen. Only after he left creation, what Lucifer did was outside of what Yahweh told him to do, in the end, finally escaping the plan and leaving into the void. The rebellion, everything that happened prior to him leaving was because he made it so. He pointed out that everything he did had a point.

(This post took longer than I expected)

This is a really REALLY REALLY good post. It just blast any disrespect of YWH out of the water.

I agree. That also makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by Astner

You may not realize it but this is true.

If you want to make an infinity greater you either have to add another infinity, multiply with a number greater than one or square with a number greater than one.

However, the chances of -- 2 * infinity > infinity, if they're completely separate it's only 67% chance that the 2 * infinity is greater than the infinity.

For instance, all numbers between 0 and 1 is infinity. All numbers between 1 and 3 is infinity. Which is the greater? It's impossible to tell, but probability tells us that the infinity numbers between 1 and 3 are 67% to be greater than the former.

If we now said all numbers between 1 and 2, and 1 and 3, the numbers between 1 and 2 would be a part of 1 to 3, hence making it certain that all numbers in-between 1 and 3 > all numbers inbetween 1 and 2.

This is the case of Yahweh, as he has both the Light and GEB's infinity within him. Meaning the probability of it being greater than any of the other infinities is 100%.

It's called transfinite numbers, and they extend infinity.
Awesome Astner, this really concludes this segment of the debate.
Originally posted by Astner

You're not actually making a debate, unless you tend to base it on your own ignorance.
The number-analogy is relevant because of the fact that there can exist greater infinities.
Neither of them were everything, not before and not after. The GEB wasn't the Light, and the Light wasn't GEB, they acted outside eachother's will.
This can futher be proven due to the fact that Yahweh confirmed he wasn't omnipotent. The result of two infinite beings resulted in another infinite being--none of them omnipotent.

In short: The Light wasn't omnipotent because it couldn't control GEB. GEB wasn't omnipotent because he couldn't control the Light. And Yahweh isn't omnipotent by his own confirmation.


Ah, I see you're pulling another fallacy. "Appeal to majority" is it? You also seem to end it with a strawman (that would be two fallacies) but I'm not sure, the last is quite vague.
But then again, when the amount of information and evdience fails you, where else to turn than to a fallacy?

None of the scans in the thread are taken out of context. Or could you perhaps prove me wrong? I think not.
Yahweh's own words--

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/455435_presey1.jpg

Yahweh can't mold himself, he needs Lucifer's help.

In how many ways can this be interpreted, how much speculation would change this fact? None. He was inable of commiting an act, he's not omnipotent.
... Beautifully thought out, with the untarnished on panel proof.

All it said was that he couldn't create himself

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Nobody is debating whether or not there can not exist greater infinities but not in this context.
And you seem to have missed my point, as I'm not actually talking about what each of them are encompassing, since it's obvious that one was the Ultimate Light, while the other was Ultimate Darkness.
I'm talking strictly about power, and how could adding something to God's already Ultimate Power increase his power even further ? That power is the ultimate degree of infinity, you can't surpass that.
Ultimate Light & Ultimate Darkness were opposites, shadow partners as it was put, Good and Evil. The story was all about their 'relationship' and balance between this forces. A representation of the ultimate 'ying and yang'. They were both absolute. They are locked in an eternal struggle, each of them being necessary. http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_17-Page16-1.jpg

You seem to be under the impression that the 'struggle', the conflict between them is based on power and thus you are under the impression that since they are 'equally powerfull' then that means that neither of them was 'supreme', the 'absolute, ultimate power'. Well, that's not the case here. Their conflict was purely abstract, philosophical. As Great Evil Beast put it "Is he you serve so high that there can be no posiblity of respect between us ?". http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_22-Page21-1.jpg
And the result of that conflict, the summary is made by a metaphor used by Phantom Stranger : In the heart of darkness, a flower blossoms, enriching the shadows with its promise of hope .. In the fields of light, an adder coils, and the radiant tranquillity is lent savor by its sinister presence."http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_38-Page37.jpg

Their merging, each of them flowing into eachother, shouldn't be put in simple terms such as power + power = more power. It is a more complex one. Although, this might have gotten too complex for you to understand, so I'm just going to stop here with this, and hope that some comprehend what I'm saying

-------


Now, unto your 'Yahweh isn't supreme' arguments that you used in the 'disrespect thread'.

But even I was shaped by forces external to me

You speculate and assume that those forces are superior to Yahweh. I already responded to this point on other threads and presented my view on what these statement meant.

Those forces are actually Ultimate Light and Ultimate Darkness, and when they were 'running together' as it was put, a new being, Yahweh was formed. The fact that Yahweh even says to Lucifer 'You know what they are" further sustains my theory. How would Lucifer be aware of these other forces ? It's obviously that nobody from within Yahweh's creation has actually shaped Yahweh, and Lucifer hasn't actually met anybody in the void who could have done this. So of who are those forces that Lucifer is aware of that could have shaped Yahweh in what he was then ?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Lucifer18.jpg

"The Dark, the Shadow Creature, came forth to challenge Heaven. The episode ended in .. perhaps a stalemate"

Yahweh saying that nobody can be his own maker ? That everybody was, at some point, shaped by something else ? I don't really need to respond to this, do I ?

Yahweh's lack of awarness when Elaine explains what Lucifer sent to him means that he is not Omniscient

Anybody who's actually read the story would know what Yahweh made it so that he would not be Omniscient. He wanted to experience randomness, he wanted to disconnect himself.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Omniscience1.jpg

Yahweh wanting to exchange memories with Lucifer and become 2 new beings

Before Yahweh disconnected himself from Creation and gave up his Omniscience, it was clearly stated that everything that Lucifer did was part of the plan, that everything was foreseen. Only after he left creation, what Lucifer did was outside of what Yahweh told him to do, in the end, finally escaping the plan and leaving into the void. The rebellion, everything that happened prior to him leaving was because he made it so. He pointed out that everything he did had a point.

(This post took longer than I expected)

Still the best and most thought out post in this thread.

Originally posted by Astner
If you want to make an infinity greater you either have to add another infinity Oxymoron. none

Originally posted by Galan007
Oxymoron. none

Not necessarily. Let's say you have an infinite amount of comic books. Then you get an infinite amount of DVDs. You have more than what you had before.

Originally posted by Galan007

Oxymoron.
Not in comics. 131

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Not necessarily. Let's say you have an infinite amount of comic books. Then you get an infinite amount of DVDs. You have more than what you had before.

What if you have an infinity of EVERYTHING? How do you make that greater? you can't.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Nobody is debating whether or not there can not exist greater infinities but not in this context.
And you seem to have missed my point, as I'm not actually talking about what each of them are encompassing, since it's obvious that one was the Ultimate Light, while the other was Ultimate Darkness.
I'm talking strictly about power, and how could adding something to God's already Ultimate Power increase his power even further ? That power is the ultimate degree of infinity, you can't surpass that.
Ultimate Light & Ultimate Darkness were opposites, shadow partners as it was put, Good and Evil. The story was all about their 'relationship' and balance between this forces. A representation of the ultimate 'ying and yang'. They were both absolute. They are locked in an eternal struggle, each of them being necessary. http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_17-Page16-1.jpg

You seem to be under the impression that the 'struggle', the conflict between them is based on power and thus you are under the impression that since they are 'equally powerfull' then that means that neither of them was 'supreme', the 'absolute, ultimate power'. Well, that's not the case here. Their conflict was purely abstract, philosophical. As Great Evil Beast put it "Is he you serve so high that there can be no posiblity of respect between us ?". http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_22-Page21-1.jpg
And the result of that conflict, the summary is made by a metaphor used by Phantom Stranger : In the heart of darkness, a flower blossoms, enriching the shadows with its promise of hope .. In the fields of light, an adder coils, and the radiant tranquillity is lent savor by its sinister presence."http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_38-Page37.jpg

Their merging, each of them flowing into eachother, shouldn't be put in simple terms such as power + power = more power. It is a more complex one. Although, this might have gotten too complex for you to understand, so I'm just going to stop here with this, and hope that some comprehend what I'm saying

-------


Now, unto your 'Yahweh isn't supreme' arguments that you used in the 'disrespect thread'.

But even I was shaped by forces external to me

You speculate and assume that those forces are superior to Yahweh. I already responded to this point on other threads and presented my view on what these statement meant.

Those forces are actually Ultimate Light and Ultimate Darkness, and when they were 'running together' as it was put, a new being, Yahweh was formed. The fact that Yahweh even says to Lucifer 'You know what they are" further sustains my theory. How would Lucifer be aware of these other forces ? It's obviously that nobody from within Yahweh's creation has actually shaped Yahweh, and Lucifer hasn't actually met anybody in the void who could have done this. So of who are those forces that Lucifer is aware of that could have shaped Yahweh in what he was then ?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Lucifer18.jpg

"The Dark, the Shadow Creature, came forth to challenge Heaven. The episode ended in .. perhaps a stalemate"

Yahweh saying that nobody can be his own maker ? That everybody was, at some point, shaped by something else ? I don't really need to respond to this, do I ?

Yahweh's lack of awarness when Elaine explains what Lucifer sent to him means that he is not Omniscient

Anybody who's actually read the story would know what Yahweh made it so that he would not be Omniscient. He wanted to experience randomness, he wanted to disconnect himself.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Omniscience1.jpg

Yahweh wanting to exchange memories with Lucifer and become 2 new beings

Before Yahweh disconnected himself from Creation and gave up his Omniscience, it was clearly stated that everything that Lucifer did was part of the plan, that everything was foreseen. Only after he left creation, what Lucifer did was outside of what Yahweh told him to do, in the end, finally escaping the plan and leaving into the void. The rebellion, everything that happened prior to him leaving was because he made it so. He pointed out that everything he did had a point.

(This post took longer than I expected)

U R DA MAN!

So, The Light and Darkness are just two parts of the same God. Separate they are not supreme because they are incomplete but together they form The Presence who is supreme.

That the gist of it?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Not necessarily. Let's say you have an infinite amount of comic books. Then you get an infinite amount of DVDs. You have more than what you had before. Those would technically be two separate infinities. I'm saying that adding more to infinity, in hopes of increasing it's overall value/size/whatever, is an oxymoron.

Why? Because if the first variable became larger by adding more to it, then it was never truly infinite to begin with. Hence, you'd really be adding to a 'nigh-infinite' variable.

.

Originally posted by Galan007
Those would technically be two separate infinities. I'm saying that adding more to infinity, in hopes of increasing it's overall value/size/whatever, is an oxymoron.

Why? Because if the first variable became larger by adding more to it, then it was never truly infinite to begin with. Hence, you'd really be adding to a 'nigh-infinite' variable.

.

thumbup1

I think it's obvious that infinity in DC means something else then in Marvel.

I like Math and you have indeed an infinite possibility between 0 an 1 for example, like 0,0002 etc, it's still lesser then 1 but it is an limited infinity, limited by 0 and 1 and so not an true infinity per se.
This kind of thinking is onedimensional, at best 2d. The mathematical infinity is an paradoxon, the philosophical infinity isn't.

I guess Marvel preferes the mathematical, DC the philosophical, which is 4d ^^. And since we talk about comics it can be that mathematically speaking GEB = infinity = 1, Presence = infinity = 1 and infinity + (or x) infinity is still = infinity because it's an true infinity, as Galan stated. So basically you have 1 x 1 = 1 ind DC and 1 + 1 = in marvel .

Infinity x infinity = infinity not 2 x infinity don't limit yourself with numbers, the human may not be able to grasp the infinity (which is impossible) but it's stil possible to grasp at least the possibility of an true infinity, though to do so one has to throw away the mental boundaries forced upon us.

So it seems that Marvel lacks an true infinity as all their infinities are limited.
The Marvel infinity is an decreasing infinity, it's only infinite while becoming smaller, lesser. The DC infinity expands it becomes larger.

Like in the example Marvel uses the mathematical infinities between points which are infinitly decreasing like 0,111. Anyway GEB or LT, since GEB wasn't defeated i give it to him.^^

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

So it seems that Marvel lacks an true infinity as all their infinities are limited.
The Marvel infinity is an decreasing infinity,
it's only infinite while becoming smaller, lesser.
The DC infinity expands it becomes larger.
Where is this stated and/or depicted in Marvel comics and/or bios?

In Marvel there are levels of infinity, and they surely go up, ever increasing.

I have the proof, but I'd like to see yours first.

Originally posted by Mr Master

In Marvel there are levels of infinity, and they surely go up, ever increasing.

there cannot be levels of inifinite, either it is infinite or it is finite.

so much of marvel's infinity is mere hyperbolic gibberish...

Originally posted by Mr Master
Where is this stated and/or depicted in Marvel comics and/or bios?

In Marvel there are levels of infinity, and they surely go up, ever increasing.

I have the proof, but I'd like to see yours first.

Don't limit youself with bios, think.

If you have differen't levels of infinity and one infinity is greater then the other, the other infinity can't grow beyond the infinity which is greater then it, so it has to be decreasing till infinity to be called an infinity else it would be equal to the infinity above and thus the greater infinity wouldn't be an greater infinity. We talked about the universal infinity, the 4d+ infinity not the 2d to 3d infinity .

Originally posted by Starscream M

there cannot be levels of inifinite, either it is infinite or it is finite.

so much of marvel's infinity is mere hyperbolic gibberish...
Actually it's not Marvel's creation,
it literally comes from a real world mathematician
who discovered transfinite sets of numbers,
it's widely recognized and accepted since 1881, even by Princeton University,
amongst a host of other prestigious establishments, and honorary mathematicians.

And yes, like all theorems there are those that disagree with his findings,
but that isn't stopping any educational facility
from using Calculus (another theorem) in their curriculums.

Any how the proof:


On Panel


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6475/kkht2.th.jpg

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................


CONTINUES ...

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7586/ccdh3.th.jpg

Kubik finishes:

"Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity,

there are of course, an infinite number more"


..............................................................


Dr Strange corroborates this Marvel fact:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4600/infinitymoremx9.th.jpg

"the very Concept of Infinity is relative,

Numbers are Infinite, so are odd Numbers, yet by definition,

there are Twice as many Numbers as there are odd Numbers ...

One Infinity is included within a larger Infinity"


=====================================


Real world:


It's actually based on a real theorem from the real world created by Georg Cantor.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Cantor's Theorem:

"The theorem is named for Georg Cantor, who first stated and proved it."

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/659/c2cf9.th.jpg:


=====================================


As you can see, Marvel even uses Cantor's name on panel.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Don't limit youself with bios, think.
Don't tell me what to do. Thanx.

If it concerns Marvel comics,
then that's the only source I have to abide by.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

If you have differen't levels of infinity and one infinity is greater then the other, the other infinity can't grow beyond the infinity which is greater then it, so it has to be decreasing till infinity to be called an infinity else it would be equal to the infinity above and thus the greater infinity wouldn't be an greater infinity. We talked about the universal infinity, the 4d+ infinity not the 2d to 3d infinity
This is inconsequential.

The dude was specifically pointing out what Marvel supposedly established,
I simply asked for the proof of said claims.

There is no such proof of course.

btw.

I'm in a comic book forum dude,
I could care less if it makes sense or not.

But it's a fact,
that Marvel uses the idea (proven for many in the real world) of "levels of infinity."

Originally posted by Mr Master
Don't tell me what to do. Thanx.

If it concerns Marvel comics,
then that's the only source I have to abide by.

This is inconsequential.

The dude was specifically pointing out what Marvel supposedly established,
I simply asked for the proof of said claims.

There is no such proof of course.

btw.

I'm in a comic book forum dude,
I could care less if it makes sense or not.

But it's a fact,
that Marvel uses the idea (proven for many in the real world) of "levels of infinity."



As you wish, but if you don't mind, explain the levels of infinity to me with your own words, without scans .

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

As you wish, but if you don't mind,
explain the levels of infinity to me with your own words, without scans.
That's not my expertise friend, nor is it my interest,
so I can't decipher the equation that leads up to that theorem with my own words.

But the scans define it lovely, why would you want a second hand clarification,
of what is already there beautifully explained by those who know a lot more than me?

I'm not going to re-type everything in those scans,
and I'm not going to copy and paste the intricacies of Cantor's discovery either.

The on panel thumb nails are there.

The link to Cantor's Theorem and all the details concerning such, is there also.

Now, if you want something from the Marvel cosmology cleared up,
I'll be more than happy to oblige friend.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's not my expertise friend, nor is it my interest,
so I can't decipher the equation that leads up to that theorem with my own words.

But the scans define it lovely, why would you want a second hand clarification,
of what is already there beautifully explained by those who know a lot more than me?

I'm not going to re-type everything in those scans,
and I'm not going to copy and paste the intricacies of Cantor's discovery either.

The on panel thumb nails are there.

The link to Cantor's Theorem and all the details concerning such, is there also.

Now, if you want something from the Marvel cosmology cleared up,
I'll be more than happy to oblige friend.

That's cool enough for me because in the end you are right, we talk about comics


cheers

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

That's cool enough for me
because in the end you are right,
we talk about comics


cheers
... friends

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually it's not Marvel's creation,
it literally comes from a real world mathematician
who discovered transfinite sets of numbers,
it's widely recognized and accepted since 1881, even by Princeton University,
amongst a host of other prestigious establishments, and honorary mathematicians.

And yes, like all theorems there are those that disagree with his findings,
but that isn't stopping any educational facility
from using Calculus (another theorem) in their curriculums.




Real world:


It's actually based on a real theorem from the real world created by Georg Cantor.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Cantor's Theorem:

"The theorem is named for Georg Cantor, who first stated and proved it."

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/659/c2cf9.th.jpg:


=====================================


As you can see, Marvel even uses Cantor's name on panel. If you scroll down to the very bottom of the wiki page you linked, you'll find a section titled "Controversy over Cantor's Theory" - it's pretty interesting hearing other mathematicians' thoughts on what Cantor proposed. Anyhow, if you then scroll down to the bottom of that page, you'll see a link titled "Cantor was Wrong" - pretty sure you can guess what that link's about lol.

So, is Cantor's theorem accepted by some? Sure. However, comparing wild ideology like that, to something like calculus, is meh.

Originally posted by Galan007

If you scroll down to the very bottom of the wiki page you linked, you'll find a section titled - it's pretty interesting hearing other mathematicians' thoughts on what Cantor proposed.
Anyhow, if you then scroll down to the bottom of that page, you'll see a link titled - pretty sure you can guess what that link's about lol.

So, is Cantor's theorem accepted by some? Sure. However, comparing wild ideology like that, to something like calculus, is meh.
Thanx for the heads up, but,
I already knew that.


In any case, I already stated there are those that disagree.

And there are those that agree!



"The theorem is named for Georg Cantor, who first stated and proved it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

.. meh.


Any who, like I said, I did mention that already,
Originally posted by Mr Master

And yes,
like all theorems there are those that disagree with his findings,
but that isn't stopping any educational facility
from using Calculus (another theorem) in their curriculums.
"wild ideology" though?

That's your opinion,
which Princeton University does not agree with:


................................................................................................................


Georg Cantor - the prestigious PRINCETON University website:


"One of the greatest revolutions in mathematics occurred
when Georg Cantor (1845-1918)
promulgated his theory of transfinite sets."

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/4740.html

................................................................................................................


I also never called it a fact,
I have always maintained it was a theorem,
just like Calculus.

Wait, I just noticed something else brother G.

Originally posted by Galan007

Anyhow, if you then scroll down to the bottom of that page,
you'll see a link titled "Cantor was Wrong" -

pretty sure you can guess what that link's about lol.
lol? ... LOL indeed!


First of all,
who the heck is Erik Max Francis to the honorary mathematical community?

No body!

The dude's a freakin CPU programmer.

http://www.alcyone.com/max/info/personal.html



This Erik,
happens to have a webpage where other no bodies go to vent,
that's where you got your info from concerning "Cantor was wrong."

In fact,
these un-important opinions concerning Cantor's theorem
comes from nameless individuals that just sent their opinions in,
so he uploaded them to his webpage,
and now because of this,
Cantor is wrong?




"Crankdot net?

http://www.crank.net/cantor.html

"I dedicate this essay to the two-dozen-odd people whose refutations of Cantor's diagonal argument have come to me either as referee or as editor in the last twenty years or so. Sadly these submissions were all quite unpublishable; I sent them back with what I hope were helpful comments."

..............................................................................


Is this a joke?

You almost had me there you sly dog.


Anyhow, there are other (real) established mathematician's that disagree,
just like there are (real) established mathematician's that agree.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Is this a joke?

You almost had me there you sly dog.


Anyhow, there are other (real) established mathematician's that disagree,
just like there are (real) established mathematician's that agree. A joke? No. T'was merely one of the first sites I came to - ergo, I posted it. There are many other sites out there if you look, but there's no reason to post 'em here.


Anyhow, my only reasoning for bringing that up is, while Cantor's idea may be accepted by some , that certainly is not enough to make it infallible . I just disagreed with calculus being compared to something like that.. srsly

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Nobody is debating whether or not there can not exist greater infinities but not in this context.
And you seem to have missed my point, as I'm not actually talking about what each of them are encompassing, since it's obvious that one was the Ultimate Light, while the other was Ultimate Darkness.
I'm talking strictly about power, and how could adding something to God's already Ultimate Power increase his power even further ? That power is the ultimate degree of infinity, you can't surpass that.
Ultimate Light & Ultimate Darkness were opposites, shadow partners as it was put, Good and Evil. The story was all about their 'relationship' and balance between this forces. A representation of the ultimate 'ying and yang'. They were both absolute. They are locked in an eternal struggle, each of them being necessary. http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_17-Page16-1.jpg

You seem to be under the impression that the 'struggle', the conflict between them is based on power and thus you are under the impression that since they are 'equally powerfull' then that means that neither of them was 'supreme', the 'absolute, ultimate power'. Well, that's not the case here. Their conflict was purely abstract, philosophical. As Great Evil Beast put it "Is he you serve so high that there can be no posiblity of respect between us ?". http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_22-Page21-1.jpg
And the result of that conflict, the summary is made by a metaphor used by Phantom Stranger : In the heart of darkness, a flower blossoms, enriching the shadows with its promise of hope .. In the fields of light, an adder coils, and the radiant tranquillity is lent savor by its sinister presence."http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_38-Page37.jpg

Their merging, each of them flowing into eachother, shouldn't be put in simple terms such as power + power = more power. It is a more complex one. Although, this might have gotten too complex for you to understand, so I'm just going to stop here with this, and hope that some comprehend what I'm saying

-------


Now, unto your 'Yahweh isn't supreme' arguments that you used in the 'disrespect thread'.

But even I was shaped by forces external to me

You speculate and assume that those forces are superior to Yahweh. I already responded to this point on other threads and presented my view on what these statement meant.

Those forces are actually Ultimate Light and Ultimate Darkness, and when they were 'running together' as it was put, a new being, Yahweh was formed. The fact that Yahweh even says to Lucifer 'You know what they are" further sustains my theory. How would Lucifer be aware of these other forces ? It's obviously that nobody from within Yahweh's creation has actually shaped Yahweh, and Lucifer hasn't actually met anybody in the void who could have done this. So of who are those forces that Lucifer is aware of that could have shaped Yahweh in what he was then ?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Lucifer18.jpg

"The Dark, the Shadow Creature, came forth to challenge Heaven. The episode ended in .. perhaps a stalemate"

Yahweh saying that nobody can be his own maker ? That everybody was, at some point, shaped by something else ? I don't really need to respond to this, do I ?

Yahweh's lack of awarness when Elaine explains what Lucifer sent to him means that he is not Omniscient

Anybody who's actually read the story would know what Yahweh made it so that he would not be Omniscient. He wanted to experience randomness, he wanted to disconnect himself.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Omniscience1.jpg

Yahweh wanting to exchange memories with Lucifer and become 2 new beings

Before Yahweh disconnected himself from Creation and gave up his Omniscience, it was clearly stated that everything that Lucifer did was part of the plan, that everything was foreseen. Only after he left creation, what Lucifer did was outside of what Yahweh told him to do, in the end, finally escaping the plan and leaving into the void. The rebellion, everything that happened prior to him leaving was because he made it so. He pointed out that everything he did had a point.

(This post took longer than I expected)

Nice post

GEB wins

Actually levels of infinity is accepted in supersymmetric string theory, as it's one of the key ideas.

As for Erik's ideas.

1. Neither Yin or Yang are absolute by themselves.
2. Omnipotence is based on the idea that you can accomplish anything without any struggle. Neither of them could take the other one out. Neither was omnipotent.
3. Your quantity fallacies is surpassed only by your quality of ignorance.
4. Yahweh, asked Lucifer to shape him. And you're contradicting yourself by saying that they didn't form a new being.
5. If he can't see alternate sollutions or predict the future he's not omniscient, it's that simple.

Originally posted by Astner
Actually levels of infinity is accepted in supersymmetric string theory, as it's one of the key ideas.

As for Erik's ideas.

1. Neither Yin or Yang are absolute by themselves.
2. Omnipotence is based on the idea that you can accomplish anything without any struggle. Neither of them could take the other one out. Neither was omnipotent.
3. Your quantity fallacies is surpassed only by your quality of ignorance.
4. Yahweh, asked Lucifer to shape him. And you're contradicting yourself by saying that they didn't form a new being.
5. If he can't see alternate sollutions or predict the future he's not omniscient, it's that simple.
If Being Omnipotent means youc an accomplish ANYTHING without struggle, then how come Thanos nor TOAA nore The LT could fix a universal flaw? Except by erasing everything and starting over. An Omnipotent being could fix the flaw and no one would know it was there.

If Omnipotent means you are absolute and can accomplish anything, then how come the classic beyonder couldn't simply will himself to know everything that he wanted to " know" about the marvel U?

Why are you insulting someone for a great post? Others thought it was great as well and yet you insult him because his post is in direct conflict with your ugly disrespect thread? Some great debator you are when you result to insults instead of actual rebuffs.

Originally posted by Galan007

A joke? No. T'was merely one of the first sites I came to - ergo, I posted it. There are many other sites out there if you look, but there's no reason to post 'em here.
Cool,
but Cantor is not wrong based on some nobody's (Erik Francis') opinion.

There are many other sites out there if you look paying homage to Cantor's theorem,
and agreeing with it as well,
and from honorary mathematicians at that, and prestigious establishments.

I have about 10 saved,
aside from over 10 books published by prominent authors also hailing Cantor's theorem,
but you're right, there's no reason to post 'em here.
Originally posted by Galan007

Anyhow, my only reasoning for bringing that up is, while Cantor's idea may be accepted by some , that certainly is not enough to make it infallible . I just disagreed with calculus being compared to something like that..
Cool, I do respect your opinion always G, you know that.

But for the record, Calculus is still a theorem in the end,
which is exactly what Cantor's theorem is.

But this is getting us off-topic.

I myself only brought it up
to point out that Marvel while it implements the theorem into their comics,
didn't create/prove the idea of levels of infinity.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool, I do respect your opinion always G, you know that.

But for the record, Calculus is still a theorem in the end,
which is exactly what Cantor's theorem is.

I understand what both of them are titled. However, one of them is a whole lot more accepted by all, then the other .

But that's neither here nor there.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But this is getting us off-topic.

I myself only brought it up
to point out that Marvel while it implements the theorem into their comics,
didn't create/prove the idea of levels of infinity. Cool beans.

Originally posted by Galan007

I understand what both of them are titled - but one of them is a whole lot more accepted by all, then the other. That was my only problem with comparing them.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by Galan007

But that's neither here nor there.

Cool beans.
Always a pleasure true debater. friends

guys, please keep the personal stuff out of this, thx...

Originally posted by Astner
Actually levels of infinity is accepted in supersymmetric string theory, as it's one of the key ideas.

As for Erik's ideas.

1. Neither Yin or Yang are absolute by themselves.
2. Omnipotence is based on the idea that you can accomplish anything without any struggle. Neither of them could take the other one out. Neither was omnipotent.
3. Your quantity fallacies is surpassed only by your quality of ignorance.
4. Yahweh, asked Lucifer to shape him. And you're contradicting yourself by saying that they didn't form a new being.
5. If he can't see alternate sollutions or predict the future he's not omniscient, it's that simple.

About #4 God never asked Lucifer to shape him, he asked him to return to HIM and in the next creation they would be reborn, God would be at a higher level and understanding Lucifer more and mainly because he was unwilling to leave even Lucifer in the void and lost forever. Lucifer said no and is willing to STAY in the void until a creation is born in the nothingness and it will be dependent on him which will never happen.

Good points are being brought up, but getting back to what the thread was originally about...I'd definately have to go with TGEB. If Protege' was able to do what he did to LT, then just imagine what TGEB could do. Not putting down LT or anything, but looks like Scathan doesn't have his back this time.
-And even if he DID, it probably wouldn't change the outcome. TGEB is just too damn powerful.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not in comics. 131 Exactly.

Originally posted by six6six
Good points are being brought up, but getting back to what the thread was originally about...I'd definately have to go with TGEB. If Protege' was able to do what he did to LT, then just imagine what TGEB could do. Not putting down LT or anything, but looks like Scathan doesn't have his back this time.
-And even if he DID, it probably wouldn't change the outcome. TGEB is just too damn powerful.

I have my doubt if Scathan can even put his 'Energy Muzzle' on TGEB.
That is, if he can penetrate the totality of darkness that is TGEB.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Why are you insulting someone for a great post? Others thought it was great as well and yet you insult him because his post is in direct conflict with your ugly disrespect thread? Some great debator you are when you result to insults instead of actual rebuffs.

Don't bother. Seriously

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Nobody is debating whether or not there can not exist greater infinities but not in this context.
And you seem to have missed my point, as I'm not actually talking about what each of them are encompassing, since it's obvious that one was the Ultimate Light, while the other was Ultimate Darkness.
I'm talking strictly about power, and how could adding something to God's already Ultimate Power increase his power even further ? That power is the ultimate degree of infinity, you can't surpass that.
Ultimate Light & Ultimate Darkness were opposites, shadow partners as it was put, Good and Evil. The story was all about their 'relationship' and balance between this forces. A representation of the ultimate 'ying and yang'. They were both absolute. They are locked in an eternal struggle, each of them being necessary. http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_17-Page16-1.jpg

You seem to be under the impression that the 'struggle', the conflict between them is based on power and thus you are under the impression that since they are 'equally powerfull' then that means that neither of them was 'supreme', the 'absolute, ultimate power'. Well, that's not the case here. Their conflict was purely abstract, philosophical. As Great Evil Beast put it "Is he you serve so high that there can be no posiblity of respect between us ?". http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_22-Page21-1.jpg
And the result of that conflict, the summary is made by a metaphor used by Phantom Stranger : In the heart of darkness, a flower blossoms, enriching the shadows with its promise of hope .. In the fields of light, an adder coils, and the radiant tranquillity is lent savor by its sinister presence."http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_38-Page37.jpg

Their merging, each of them flowing into eachother, shouldn't be put in simple terms such as power + power = more power. It is a more complex one. Although, this might have gotten too complex for you to understand, so I'm just going to stop here with this, and hope that some comprehend what I'm saying

-------


Now, unto your 'Yahweh isn't supreme' arguments that you used in the 'disrespect thread'.

But even I was shaped by forces external to me

You speculate and assume that those forces are superior to Yahweh. I already responded to this point on other threads and presented my view on what these statement meant.

Those forces are actually Ultimate Light and Ultimate Darkness, and when they were 'running together' as it was put, a new being, Yahweh was formed. The fact that Yahweh even says to Lucifer 'You know what they are" further sustains my theory. How would Lucifer be aware of these other forces ? It's obviously that nobody from within Yahweh's creation has actually shaped Yahweh, and Lucifer hasn't actually met anybody in the void who could have done this. So of who are those forces that Lucifer is aware of that could have shaped Yahweh in what he was then ?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Lucifer18.jpg

"The Dark, the Shadow Creature, came forth to challenge Heaven. The episode ended in .. perhaps a stalemate"

Yahweh saying that nobody can be his own maker ? That everybody was, at some point, shaped by something else ? I don't really need to respond to this, do I ?

Yahweh's lack of awarness when Elaine explains what Lucifer sent to him means that he is not Omniscient

Anybody who's actually read the story would know what Yahweh made it so that he would not be Omniscient. He wanted to experience randomness, he wanted to disconnect himself.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Omniscience1.jpg

Yahweh wanting to exchange memories with Lucifer and become 2 new beings

Before Yahweh disconnected himself from Creation and gave up his Omniscience, it was clearly stated that everything that Lucifer did was part of the plan, that everything was foreseen. Only after he left creation, what Lucifer did was outside of what Yahweh told him to do, in the end, finally escaping the plan and leaving into the void. The rebellion, everything that happened prior to him leaving was because he made it so. He pointed out that everything he did had a point.

(This post took longer than I expected)

THUMBS UP!

Any more arguments?

Elaborate.