Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Yes a while ago i herd you guys did a thread about this
im not shure what the final outcome was

but my vote goes to nihilus
even if luke could remove himself from the force
and only engagde in saber combat he would still lose
because when he doesn't use the force to gelp him in
saber combat his speed, strength and stamina fall

It depends on what incarnation of Luke you're discussing. If it's NJO Luke, he would certainly defeat Nihilus- and I doubt it'll be particularly hard for him.

You see, Luke possesses experience with several Fallanassi techniques that make Nihilus' only uniquely powerful skill- his drain- completely useless against him. Luke will, no matter how you put it, curbstomp Nihilus without his drain- either crush him in a saber duel, destroy him with Electric Judgement... the list goes on. Luke, as of NJO, is generally accepted to be the most powerful force user in history. Nihilus, despite being an exceptionally powerful Sith Lord, will die to Luke.

Even if luke uses the fallanasi technique he still can use the force.

Right. Cuz Luke is automatically going to be all 'Look, that's Darth Nihilus from KotOR: TSL! He brutally severs people from the Force, and can do so to anything from individuals to entire f*cking planets! But I know what to do! I'm gonna loop out of the Force now, run up to him, and stab him in the ass! W00t.'

That, versus Nihilus sensing Luke's tremendous presence in the Force and deciding to eat him.

Luke could definitely win this if he did what he did against Jacen and just rushed the guy, but all Nihilus has to do is raise his hand.

Well, Luke now has the whole shatterpoint thing and he's not so susceptible as dying when blocked from the Force.
Luke could very well rush Nihilus and force a melee battle, too

Originally posted by Faunus
Right. Cuz Luke is automatically going to be all 'Look, that's Darth Nihilus from KotOR: TSL! He brutally severs people from the Force, and can do so to anything from individuals to entire f*cking planets! But I know what to do! I'm gonna loop out of the Force now, run up to him, and stab him in the ass! W00t.'

This wouldn't be the most farfetched or implausible move ever from a SW character.

You have something more ridiculous in mind?

Originally posted by Faunus
You have something more ridiculous in mind? Midichlorians, Jar Jar, eating planets, NJO Luke Skywalker, President Obama, the list goes on.

Hey hey ho, you don't speak on sweet, black, baby Jesus Barack Obama like that...

Originally posted by Faunus
You have something more ridiculous in mind?

Admiral Daala somehow being elected ruler of the Galactic Alliance?

How bout Luke appointing MOFFS, and batshit crazy Daala wasn't elected she was MADE ruler of the galaxy, with no fight from anyone and endorsement by a man she tortured Han Solo.

Or how bout a 30 year old woman Tahri who can't move on from a infatuation with a dead 17 year old Anakin Solo, and said woman who attempts to seduce a 14 year old Ben Skywalker.

Originally posted by Faunus
Right. Cuz Luke is automatically going to be all 'Look, that's Darth Nihilus from KotOR: TSL! He brutally severs people from the Force, and can do so to anything from individuals to entire f*cking planets! But I know what to do! I'm gonna loop out of the Force now, run up to him, and stab him in the ass! W00t.'

Wouldn't luke know nihilus nature considering that the NEC was written by an inuniverse character and that it would be safe to assume that luke knows the old republic history?

luke knew about marka ragnos did he not?

How about the concept of the entire legacy series and bringing the sith back like that?

How about Jacen gaining magical powers by picking a sith name?

How about the fact that Obama is still running for president?

Originally posted by MadMel
luke knew about marka ragnos did he not?

Knew who he was, but not the extent of his force power, or melee abilities.

Ragnos did possess one of the most deadly weapons of his time, The Scepter.

Luke could've assumed he was helluva powerful force user.

i still don't think we can assume that nihilus can drain any person he wants too in a moment. we never actually see that happen. Luke DOES have the ability to remove himself from the force completely, as evidenced when he goes AWOL before slipping aboard the Anakin Solo to rescue Ben. So that would keep Nihilius drain or whatever the attack is called from having much of an affect even if Nihilius COULD use that attack on a single target.

Actually I'm pretty sure that nihilus can target a single target and drain them when he wants to as you can see in this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpO__IJra4o

at around 1:09 you see nihilus target the exile and use his drain technique only to fail since the exile is a wound in the force.

But i still see luke coming out the victor here. He knows so much force techniques and being able to mask his presence while also being able to force project himself somewhere else (at least thats what i think he did in inferno) only helps his cause.

he definitly did it in invincible, several times too.

Luke is just a beast. I don't know why most people dislike him..... It's not his fault the authors made him so Uber.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
Luke is just a beast. I don't know why most people dislike him..... It's not his fault the authors made him so Uber. Well we b*tch about the authors too.

Forgive my ignorance here, this is more of a question than anything.

I read a comic a few years ago, in which Nihilus killed every being - but one - of an entire planet's population just by speaking. I'm sure it wasn't a hyperbolic statement, as it was the sole survivor of this blight whom was narrating.

Granted, I'm not sure of this events canonicity, but my main question is - if said event is canonical, what feats does Luke have to put him above a being who can do something like that?

Originally posted by Galan007
Forgive my ignorance here, this is more of a question than anything.

I read a comic a few years ago, in which Nihilus killed every being - but one - of an entire planet's population just by speaking. I'm sure it wasn't a hyperbolic statement, as it was the sole survivor of this blight whom was narrating.

Granted, I'm not sure of this events canonicity, but my main question is - if said event is canonical, what feats does Luke have to put him above a being who can do something like that? Nothing so singularly.

And that was Visas Marr. I don't even remember if she just "happened" to survive, or if Nihilus said "F*ck it, she's cool." Her account is a tad subjective though. She had just experienced an entire planet's death, then followed that up with serving the one responsible aboard a ghost-ship; there's a good chance she was being poetic. Aside from her testimonial, there's no proof that Nihilus just spoke and killed a globe. There's even evidence to back up that it takes time for him to drain such a mass: as soon as he entered Telos' system, he should have been able to speak, and NOT let the Exile maneuver her way through his entire ship, plant explosives, and kill him.

I'm not so sure, she made it seem pretty clear that Nihilus speaking, is what killed off the planet..

"My people never saw his face when he struck - but they heard his voice"
"When my lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died":


http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8065/nih1tn9.th.jpg http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/143/nih2df3.th.jpg http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9331/nih3zd1.th.jpg http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6997/nih4hr0.th.jpg http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7739/nih5gv3.th.jpg http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5599/nih6yn3.th.jpg

It would also seem that Nihilus did in fact allow her to live .

*shrugs*

Yeah, that's what I mean. She's the only witness, and isn't in a position to provide an unbiased account. If he could utilize such power at such a speed, he'd be practically invincible. The best explanation is that it takes time for him to kick-start the technique. It just doesn't make any sense why Nihilus ever died at all if it's to the contrary.

I wonder if Nihilus purposefully spared Visas during the initial devastation, or if she was some anomaly that survived.

Agreed. I wasn't trying to say Nihilus could preform such a task instantaneously, - I was just saying, to annihilate a planet full of force sensetives via speachification is quite uber in my book. This brings me back to my original question as to what Luke can do to overcome a being like that?

Originally posted by Galan007
Agreed. I wasn't trying to say Nihilus could preform such a task instantaneously, - I was just saying, to annihilate a planet full of force sensetives via speachification is quite uber in my book. This brings me back to my original question as to what Luke can do to overcome a being like that?

It's easy. Luke can simply hide his presence in the Force, creep up on Nihilus, and utterly demolish him. I think we can all agree that NJO Luke's saber skills far far FAR surpass those of Nihilus.

Note: I don't really think that Nihilus can do his Force-eating thing instantaneously. I know that when the Exile (i.e. you) faces him in TSL he can't eat/drain her because she's a wound in the Force, but look at her companions. You can choose any of the companions, Force-sensitive or not, and he won't eat/drain them. And these are simple characters from TSL. You think Nihilus is going to have more luck with Force God Luke Skywalker?

Originally posted by caedusrulesall
It's easy. Luke can simply hide his presence in the Force, creep up on Nihilus, and utterly demolish him. I think we can all agree that NJO Luke's saber skills far far FAR surpass those of Nihilus.

Note: I don't really think that Nihilus can do his Force-eating thing instantaneously. I know that when the Exile (i.e. you) faces him in TSL he can't eat/drain her because she's a wound in the Force, but look at her companions. You can choose any of the companions, Force-sensitive or not, and he won't eat/drain them. And these are simple characters from TSL. You think Nihilus is going to have more luck with Force God Luke Skywalker? Exactly.

Nihilus can wreak destruction on a scale similar to Palpatine, and I personally can't think of any one feat in the Force Luke has ever done which rivals it. But yeah, if he could use his power even remotely close to being described as "fast" he would've just consumed everyone at Telos (aside from the Exile). Luke could easily finish him off.

I see your points.

Anyhow, is Nihilus wiping out a planet's population by merely speaking, the most destructive use of the force ever seen? If not, what exceeds it? I only ask because it's the best 'force-feat' I've seen, but there could be better ones out there.

Originally posted by Galan007
I see your points.

Anyhow, is Nihilus wiping out a planet's population by merely speaking, the most destructive use of the force ever seen? If not, what exceeds it? I only ask because it's the best 'force-feat' I've seen, but there could be better ones out there. I can't think too well at the moment, only one comes to mind: that would be Palpatine's Force Storm. It literally rips apart space and time and can ravage entire fleets. He also can control it so well as to limit it to a mere teleporter, as in the case where he picked up Luke and moved him across the galaxy in seconds. I don't know if it can actually tear apart a planet, but it can ravage life to the same numerical degree Nihilus' Drain does.

Originally posted by Tangible God
I can't think too well at the moment, only one comes to mind: that would be Palpatine's Force Storm. It literally rips apart space and time and can ravage entire fleets. He also can control it so well as to limit it to a mere teleporter, as in the case where he picked up Luke and moved him across the galaxy in seconds. I don't know if it can actually tear apart a planet, but it can ravage life to the same numerical degree Nihilus' Drain does.

According to the DESB, a Force Storm can "tear the surfaces off of worlds".

That is AWESOME.

For a brief moment.

Then I remember that Palpatine should have died seven years previous.

Originally posted by Galan007
I see your points.

Anyhow, is Nihilus wiping out a planet's population by merely speaking, the most destructive use of the force ever seen? If not, what exceeds it? I only ask because it's the best 'force-feat' I've seen, but there could be better ones out there. So far, only Palpatine's Force Storm rivals it. Those are both the two single most devastating Sith Powers.

Thing is, Luke can with the Fallanasi technique become immune to Nihilus' Uber Force Sever technique, and although without it Nihilus is still very much a powerful Sith Lord, he will be defeated by Luke without the Force Sever, especially in a saber fight which Nihilus' skills in are mostly unknown.

I personally think that there needs to be more comics with Nihilus, we know nearly nothing about him.

Originally posted by Tangible God
That is AWESOME.

For a brief moment.

Then I remember that Palpatine should have died seven years previous.

None of it is awesome. Palpatine's Force Storms, Nihilus's drains, Sadow's ship. The Force lost its mysticism and turned into outright comic book shit magic.

Originally posted by Gideon
None of it is awesome. Palpatine's Force Storms, Nihilus's drains, Sadow's ship. The Force lost its mysticism and turned into outright comic book shit magic. I would agree with your opinion, if more than a couple characters had utilized the force in such a manner. However, the fact that only a few beings have been able to preform feats like that certainly wouldn't lead me to call the force 'shit magic'.

In my opinion, at least.

No, it was shit magic. We go from Palpatine's pretty wicked little display of lightning that almost kills Luke, and does kill Vader, to Palpatine being able to shred a planet and entire fleets at a whim. Such a sudden jump to such a incalculable degree of power is pure comic book flashiness.

Originally posted by Tangible God
No, it was shit magic. We go from Palpatine's pretty wicked little display of lightning that almost kills Luke, and does kill Vader, to Palpatine being able to shred a planet and entire fleets at a whim. Such a sudden jump to such a incalculable degree of power is pure comic book flashiness. One could argue that Palpatine, being evil, preferred to watch his enemies suffer , than to give them a quick death . The only thing I find inconsistent, is the fact that if Palpatine had the ability to do something of that caliber - why go through the trouble of building the Death Star, twice? More of an intimidation factor perhaps?

Or is it possible that Palpatine simply couldn't utilize force storm throughout the SW movies, and only became powerful enough with the force to do so, after his initial 'death'?

So are there inconsistencies? Sure. Was such a display of power thrown in the story to spruce it up a bit? Probably. But branding the force 'shit magic' because a few people since it's conception have utilized it for results of the aforementioned magnitude - is a tad harsh, imo. *shrugs*

Originally posted by Galan007
One could argue that Palpatine, being evil, preferred to watch his enemies suffer , than to give them a quick death . The only thing I find inconsistent, is the fact that if Palpatine had the ability to do something of that caliber - why go through the trouble of building the Death Star, twice? More of an intimidation factor perhaps?

Or is it possible that Palpatine simply couldn't utilize force storm throughout the SW movies, and only became powerful enough with the force to do so, after his initial 'death'?

So are there inconsistencies? Sure. Was such a display of power thrown in the story to spruce it up a bit? Probably. But branding the force 'shit magic' because a few people since it's conception have utilized it for results of the aforementioned magnitude - is a tad harsh, imo. *shrugs* Well to my knowledge Palpatine was only shown to use the Force Storm during DE, which was when he was at his strongest. So I think it is safe to assume during the time of the movies he was not able to.

Palpatine spent years regaining his strength on Byss after the events of Return of the Jedi. He himself states in Dark Empire that as Skywalker had grown stronger in the Force since "the last time met," so had Palpatine himself. The Ultimate Visual Guide also confirms that Palpatine studied deeper in the Force to "become even more powerful" after RotJ.

But from perspective on a higher plane (i.e. prophecy, destiny, fate), Anakin's sacrifice and killing of Palpatine ensured that he was truly screwed from then on out.

I always assumed that it was pure force strength that spared her, there just didn't seem like another explanation.



He was probably pissed off that instead of the feast that Traya had promised him, he got a pack of cheesy watsits in the form of Telos. And he would be confused as to why she would pull such a mean trick on him. And he could have felt Visas coming and wondered if she had important info. Their are lots of reasons, but the fact remains that we have evidence of him using a fast drain: AGAINST THE EXILE. So I don't really see the argument.



As Faunus said, its very unlikely that Lukes gonna use that technique right off the bat. More likely he'd try to talk Nihilus into joining the lightside and then agonise over killing him. Nihilus on the other hand, would see him and drain him, just like that.


I see Nihilus winning this, Mabye even without the drain (not immediately provable so don't call me out to prove it, cuz I won't)

LOL your an idiot, him winning without the drain even. Care to substantiate? Again how is nihilus going to defend against an attack he has never even heard of?

Oh please and its not like luke wouldn't know the nature of nihilus force severing technique as he himself(or his precognition) has at least used a similar technique once on palpatine.

Can you not read? I said i wasn't.

But just for you...

Nihilus pulled a fleet out of a gravity well. That ups Luke by a fair distance. Nihilus force crushes him. Luke dies.

There, that was a quick one just for yourself.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus


Nihilus pulled a fleet out of a gravity well. That ups Luke by a fair distance. Nihilus force crushes him. Luke dies.
"Fleet" eh? Again where was it stated that he pulled a "fleet" out of the gravity well let alone the ship?

If your going to suck tobins dick and use him as backup, i tell you what, your plain wrong seeing that tobin was never there when nihilus "pulled" the ship out of malachors gravity well.

Again no where was it clearly stated that he actually used the force to get his ship out nor was it even hinted! Again try not to use tobin because he himself has never seen nihilus "pulling the ship out of the gravity well"

His ship was in the gravity well, he could have very well simply flew the ship away rather than "lift the entire ship" seeing that the ships engines are in working conditions and that the gravity well was inactive.

Him pulling the ship out via the force is speculation mr anti luke/miss nebaris.


Oh wow so its "nihilus crushes luke now" eh? I guess by your logic starkiller and palpatine would take a dump on luke because sidious has destroyed an entire starfleet with one move whereas starkiller pulling down a star destroyer with relative ease.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

There, that was a quick one just for yourself. Ah yes without anything to back you up.

Its called word of mouth Ivalice, Tobin could have easily learnt about it from another source. Plus there's no reason for him to lie or make up crap, he thinks he's gonna die in 10 minutes.



Except that it actually says that he 'pulled his fleet from the wrekage of Malachor'.

Unless he used sugar power, he used the force. EOD

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Its called word of mouth Ivalice,

Word of mouth can easily exaggerate a story. When I was in elementary school they told us why you shouldn't start a rumor and to demonstrate it that had us play the telephone game and the original rumor became extremely out of proportion even compared to the original lie, so Tobin hearing by word of mouth means jack ****.

I too, question the quote which you are not quoting Tobin right btw.



Notice how easily he could be saying that he tore the ship from Malachor(personal power) and combine with the sith fleet he acquired represents his full power militarily and personally. Maybe if the sith interdictor ships (which look brand new) were damaged then you might be correct but the fact of the matter is no other ship is damaged like it should be if he brought it from malachor. I believe Canderous only mentions that the Ravager was at malachor and no mention to other ships which are likely remnants of Revan/Malak's sith empire.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Its called word of mouth Ivalice, Tobin could have easily learnt about it from another source. Plus there's no reason for him to lie or make up crap, he thinks he's gonna die in 10 minutes.
And who is this "other source"? How can you or he verify this "other source"?

Again quit speculating and actually prove that he pulled the ship out of the gravity well.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Except that it actually says that he 'pulled his fleet from the wrekage of Malachor'.

Unless he used sugar power, he used the force. EOD Ah so you did exactly as i predicted which is that you used tobin as a source. I'm sorry pal but tobin never saw nihilus "pulled any ships out of any holes" hence his claims should be disregarded.

Look at it from an attorney's point of view, he is making a claim with absolutely nothing to back up his claims let alone him not even being there to witness the incident, would you take his words seriously despite the fact that nothing proves his claims let alone him not seeing shit or are you going to dismiss it as propaganda or better yet disregard it?

Don't be stupid exodus, the ship was still in working condition which means that it is able to fly, i don't see why nihilus and his goons couldn't have simply flown the ship off world as the gravity well remains inactive and the fact that nothing indicates he used the force to lift the ship.

This possibility alone would eliminate the "speculation that he lifted his ship from the well".

Except we have two sources(the loading screen and Tobin) that say he tore the ship out of the gravity well. You are the one speculating he did it through some other means.

Bear in mind, I haven't beaten KotOR II (it sits in its dusty case somewhere in storage), so I will rely on the objectivity of everyone present; that said, I am noticing some inconsistencies and problems that need to be addressed.



This doesn't cut it. "Word of mouth" is practically the same thing as a rumor; Lightsnake hears (or reads, rather) accounts from dozens of posters on these forums that you're a deeply, psychologically scarred little boy who has developed an unhealthy fascination with a fictional character (Bane) and an equally troubled presence on this forum (Nebaris), and your infatuation turns to clear sexual attraction, and so you fellate them both at every opportunity. That's word of mouth. So I guess it's automatically true because we say so? (bad example, I know, because all of that is true)

But without corroboration from multiple sources that confirm such an idea, Tobin's opinion on its own is subject to skepticism. Was he present when the feat was performed or has done incredible research on the matter? If not, his opinion isn't just subject to question -- it means absolutely nothing at all. Period. The end. You lose.

Likewise, a fleet =/= one ship. If he pulled a ship from the mass shadows, that's impressive. But it's not comparable to "lulz he pulled teh fleet!" Furthermore, how did he do it? Was it part of a ritual? How long did it take him? Substantiate, otherwise you can't aggrandize his telekinesis.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Except we have two sources(the loading screen and Tobin) that say he tore the ship out of the gravity well. You are the one speculating he did it through some other means. Except that tobin never actually saw your boyfriend pull any "fleets" out of the gravity well hence his claims should be disregarded, again read my previous posts. Oh and the loading screen merely stated that he got his ship from the gravity well. The word "tore" is subjective and up for debate pal as to weather he did pull the ship out. If his TK is so almighty then how come he couldn't crush a NON force user and his own apprentice with the exile?

Again what even indicates that he used the force to do so? What if its machines who "tore" the ship out of the gravity well? What if he flew the ship out the gravity well? What if he and his other dark jedi goons "tore" the ship out of the well all at once?

Again what indicates he even used the force?

By that logic, Revan never explored Malachor becuase no-one ever saw it happen, Lumiya never learnt anything from Vader becuase we never saw it happen, 'the ultimate visual guide'(and all the other star wars source books) is wrong becuase the writer never actually saw any of it happen, Nebaris doesn't exist becuase I've never seen him etc.



He was drastically weakened by the Exile and Visas and he only saw things in the force, Visas states that he doesn't reall notice anything smaller that a space station untill its standing in front of him. Plus he would be having trouble via getting creamed by the exile.



I detect a hint of jelousy. And bitterness.



The ship itself kind of backs it up. Plus the loading scene. Plus the documented scope of Nihlus' power i.e. His ability to affect things on a planetary scale.



He could have easily repaired it after pulling it out of Malachor.



Thats just crappy game creation. Everyone knows how poorly that game was put together and the errors made.



The quote says that 'He tore it ....' as in him. Unless he used his hands and a rocket-backpack, he tore it out with the force.



What an inconsistency! Your willing to believe that Kenobiu is the ultimate Soreso master just becuase Mace said so but turn your back on this! And all the singular quotes about the team arresting Palps! Thats a slip.

First of all please do a little better job with your quoting. It is hard to find who you are trying to quote at times with no name present in the quote.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Thats just crappy game creation. Everyone knows how poorly that game was put together and the errors made.

Blaming the game creators doesn't cut it, there is also the fact that Canderous says that the Ravager "was of Malachor" (or something along those lines) but no mention of the other ships in the fleet. It is much more likely that those ships were remnants of the sith empire defeated at the star forge.

How do I get the name to appear?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
By that logic, Revan never explored Malachor becuase no-one ever saw it happen, Lumiya never learnt anything from Vader becuase we never saw it happen, 'the ultimate visual guide'(and all the other star wars source books) is wrong becuase the writer never actually saw any of it happen,
You by far is the most idiotic human being i had ever encountered in the last 17 years of my life.

Wow i guess you forgot that kreia did actually witness revan plundering malachor V as she herself was aware that he FED on malachors dark side energy whereas its dark side energys CRIPPLED her.

Oh and lumiya DID learn something from vader because it was STATED in the new essential guide to characters that she was his student.

The ultimate visual guide was written by out of universe sources aka authors whom have he right to write what ever the hell they want thus they do not actually need to be in the "star wars universe"(which would never happen as it is science fiction universe).

Exodus, you truly are an abomination to both your parents and society. You type your way into KMC thinking you can actually even form a believable and cogent argument but instead end up making a fool of yourself and further degrade yourself. Birth control would be your parents friend to prevent further tragedies like you.

Even lordknightfall is far more credible than you, at times he can be really intelligent and able to form pretty good arguments while sometimes he behaves and acts like a babbling idiot. But at least he tries to improve and he can think more logically than you.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Nebaris doesn't exist becuase I've never seen him etc. Lol you didn't see him? I guess that means you didn't see his posts either which indicates that nebaris is a tangible organic being.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

He was drastically weakened by the Exile and Visas and he only saw things in the force, Visas states that he doesn't reall notice anything smaller that a space station untill its standing in front of him. Plus he would be having trouble via getting creamed by the exile.

Ah so he only sees things in the force. But once again your BF tobin claims that he does not see people but only planets and stars.

Ah yes so because he got on his knees for a second it means he got "drastically weakened". Good observation.




Originally posted by Darth Exodus

The ship itself kind of backs it up. Plus the loading scene. Plus the documented scope of Nihlus' power i.e. His ability to affect things on a planetary scale.
Oh and how does the ship "back it up" that he used the force? How so miss nebaris? And the loading screen even did not state that he used the force.

And regarding the l33t planet scale shit. Just how big was the planet? Hell most of the planet was covered with mountains and it has like what? A small city whose small buildings can already be clearly seen from orbit?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

He could have easily repaired it after pulling it out of Malachor. Again prove that he "repaired it" seeing that most of the ship is still damaged and that there are gaps in the ship which still open up to the vacuum of space.

LOL and easily repair a broken massive ship the size of an imperial sized star destroyer by himself? Your an idiot pal and even if there were other people with him, just how many of them are there let alone technicians and mechanics to repair such a massive ship?






Originally posted by Darth Exodus

The quote says that 'He tore it ....' as in him. Unless he used his hands and a rocket-backpack, he tore it out with the force. Big deal, "Tore" is subjective and debatable. How do we know he didn't use machinery to "tear" the ship out of the gravity well?

How do we know that "he"(in reference to his military power) didn't "tear" the ship out via other ships?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
How do I get the name to appear? By buying a new brain to replace the rotten one in that coconut shell of yours.

First, how do you detect 'jelousy'? As far as I'm aware, it's not even an actual word.

Second, if you meant jealousy and bitterness, you'd be absolutely correct. But you don't detect it from me.

Third, nice rebuttal. In the face absolute ownage, you try to generate some banter, and end up ****ing up an easy word to spell and making yourself look like an even bigger ass.



Two separate situations. First, Windu was present to witness Kenobi's skill as a swordsman. Tobin, apparently, wasn't. All the "singular quotes" about Palpatine are issued by omniscient narrators (Tobin isn't one) or the historical council of a galactic superpower with unlimited resources and uncanny research (Tobin isn't one).

I win, you lose, you're an ass.

Originally posted by Gideon


Third, nice rebuttal. In the face absolute ownage, you try to generate some banter, and end up ****ing up an easy word to spell and making yourself look like an even bigger ass.


Btw did you singlehandedly own him or did we both double own him?

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Btw did you singlehandedly own him or did we both double own him?

It was a verbal and argumentative gangbang.

Don't count your chickens yet Boy-o.




Occums razor states that he wasn't. He thought he wasn't going to live very long and was really depressed, its very unlikely that he was making up crap just for spite.
Plus you have to remember that he isn't real. He's a 2-demensional character. Its very, very unlikely that the writers would have him lie just to big Nihilus up, especially when they just spent the whole game doing just that. More likely, they just wanted him to actually be powerful.



Becuase there are are lots of horrible beasties on Malachor, and its easier to repair it away from them.



You're insulting me by insulting knightfall and also yourself. Well done, ace



Hmmm, you seem to have skipped over half my argument. Bit lazy of you.



Yeah, I'm sure that all those dark jedi, pilots and Sith troops on his ship were all just imaginary. Again, Nice one ace



Again, Occums razor states that the most logical and likely thing would be for him to be telling the truth and also for Nihilus to have used the force. Your crap theory that Nihilus used ships is faulty ( Where would he get those ships from? If he had them then why does he want the Leviathan?)



Its the most probable thing to have happened and untill something comes up which disproves it or another valid theory that has enough evidence behind it is put forward, it must be held as the most probable and therefor the correct turn of events.




Drat!!! Foiled yet again by the spellcheck!! Oh well, I'll survive.



When was this. I've never seen them fighting together.



I wasn't actually talking about Palpatine. You should read before you post next time.

You shouldn't post at all.

Why do you hate me!!!! bawling

I dunno if I should really intervene, but some stuff:

1. Even if Nihilus did pull out the ravager using the force from Malachor's Gravity well, it's not nearly enough to put him on a superior tier with Luke, who was capable of ripping out the engines of Star Destroyers, blocking incredibly powerful blaster bolts with the force (and that's well before LotF), and was also (I believe) capable of manipulating black holes.

2. He was able to immobilize Darth Caedus by lifting his finger. The same Darth Caedus who was said to have force powers that surpassed VADER'S, who was said to have 80% of Darth Sidious' raw power, had incredible knowledge of the dark side and was capable of killing people lightyears away. Could he do so to Nihilus? Quite possibly. And, incidentally, Luke can also move waaaay faster than Nihilus and obliterate him in a lightsaber duel.

3. Nihilus, apparently, can't 'see', but rather only sense the force. The Fallanassi technique will therefore be more than enough to disable his arsenal of weapons.

Exodus, I understand that you hate Luke (I hate him, too), and while there are certain characters in the Star Wars mythos that can challenge him, he is, most probably, the most powerful force user in Star Wars history. Nihilus doesn't compare to him.

You know Ivalice, you are by far the single most unpleasant human being that I have ever met.



Extremely unlikely given the context of the sentence.



Mein Gott!!! It was a hypothetical example you turd!! And the post I made makes it very clear why it would be stupid to consider the destruction of alderaan an indication of Palps personal power.

Tobin wouldn't of made a big deal of the fact that Nihilus used ships to drag the Leviathan. That isn't the type of thing that you reverentually say 'that is the measure of his power' about.



How about becuase its the backbone of your entire argument, *******?



becuase he's an omnipotent Sith Lord and its just easy and impressive. The whys not important, but that he actually did it.



No, becuase my quote referenced personal power rather than military power. Yours doesn't.

I've run out of time so I'll come back tomorrow, then on Monday.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
You know Ivalice, you are by far the single most unpleasant human being that I have ever met.
Just like how your the new biggest joke of the forums whom everybody pauses just to laugh at.


Oh and met? Please have you even seen my facelet alone actually speak to me in person?
If we ever met i would pound you to dust considering that my biceps are large enough to give me enough strength to break your joints.

You have been owned and got your ass handed to you in the process by sir gideon and i yet you still insist on coming back for more. Even nebaris knows when to shut up.

Hell even the 40 year old guy who can't get laid surfing kiddie porn in his mothers basement pauses for a moment just to laugh at you.

LOL your a pathetic excuse to be called a human being.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Extremely unlikely given the context of the sentence.
And the context of the sentence is open to interpretation. Just because you want it to mean that he used the force doesn't make it so, especially when theres nothing to back you up.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Mein Gott!!! It was a hypothetical example you turd!! And the post I made makes it very clear why it would be stupid to consider the destruction of alderaan an indication of Palps personal power.
A hypothetical example which makes no sense at all "turd". Again no where was it ever implied that "palpatine destroyed alderaan", its more like "the empire destroyed alderaan".

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Tobin wouldn't of made a big deal of the fact that Nihilus used ships to drag the Leviathan. That isn't the type of thing that you reverentually say 'that is the measure of his power' about.
First off the ship is known as the ravager you babbling idiot, not the leviathan(which is sauls and malaks ship).

If you can't even correctly name and remember the name of nihilus flagship, how is anybody suppose to take you seriously? Hell you even went as far as to claim that you "played the game a few days earlier" and still can't even correctly name his ship.

Idiot.

Secondly it WOULD be a big deal if he ever used other ships to tow the ravager, just as it would be a big deal if several small vessels tugged the titanic.

Thirdly who ever said that "the ravager only got dragged by other ships"? I merely listed a few possibilities to debunk your unsupported speculative assertions.

lying fanboys can't save nihilus.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus

How about becuase its the backbone of your entire argument, *******? How about the fact that you fail to understand the meaning of the burden of proof and the very fact that you can't prove up hence the need at a futile attempt to throw the burden on someone else?


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

becuase he's an omnipotent Sith Lord and its just easy and impressive. The whys not important, but that he actually did it. AHAHA omnipotent my ass, so because you say he is omnipotent that makes him a god? That makes him more powerful than dark empire sidious?

Do you KNOW what omnipotent beings are? They are eternal, they are unstoppable, they are immortal.

Characters like the one above all from marvel are omnipotent, not excuses like nihilus.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus

No, becuase my quote referenced personal power rather than military power. Yours doesn't. Again "your" "quote" is open to interpretation simply because there is absolutely nothing to substantiate nor prove that he actually used the force.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

I've run out of time so I'll come back tomorrow, then on Monday. Go ahead and make a bigger joke of yourself and argue somemore like a broken record.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I dunno if I should really intervene, but some stuff:

1. Even if Nihilus did pull out the ravager using the force from Malachor's Gravity well, it's not nearly enough to put him on a superior tier with Luke, who was capable of ripping out the engines of Star Destroyers, blocking incredibly powerful blaster bolts with the force (and that's well before LotF), and was also (I believe) capable of manipulating black holes.

2. He was able to immobilize Darth Caedus by lifting his finger. The same Darth Caedus who was said to have force powers that surpassed VADER'S, who was said to have 80% of Darth Sidious' raw power, had incredible knowledge of the dark side and was capable of killing people lightyears away. Could he do so to Nihilus? Quite possibly. And, incidentally, Luke can also move waaaay faster than Nihilus and obliterate him in a lightsaber duel.

3. Nihilus, apparently, can't 'see', but rather only sense the force. The Fallanassi technique will therefore be more than enough to disable his arsenal of weapons.

Exodus, I understand that you hate Luke (I hate him, too), and while there are certain characters in the Star Wars mythos that can challenge him, he is, most probably, the most powerful force user in Star Wars history. Nihilus doesn't compare to him. Well said master crimzon. This alone won't be enough to shut JR nebaris up though, so please continue to own him.

LOL. Guilt by association appears to go a seriously long way over here. Exodus, I personally wouldn't bother. You're arguing with, quite possibly, the biggest wasteman on the internet, who's opinions and mannerisms appear to adjust in accordance with those around him. Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen so many forced 'pal's and 'son's in my life, not to mention the outright weird copying and pasting.

Originally posted by Taven
LOL. Guilt by association appears to go a seriously long way over here. Exodus, I personally wouldn't bother. You're arguing with, quite possibly, the biggest wasteman on the internet, who's opinions and mannerisms appear to adjust in accordance with those around him. Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen so many forced 'pal's and 'son's in my life, not to mention the outright weird copying and pasting. Get lost nebaris, nobody gives a shit about your opinions. Oh and talk about the "biggest wasteman" on the internet, that applies completely to you as you have created over 40 accounts and nearing 50 soon enough and just can't seem to move on with life in the real world and the need to come back to KMC like a broken child.

Oh and to you its such a big deal that my attitude and opinions adjust to those around me, at least that is what made me acceptable to society and actually being able to get along which is far better than ending up like you whom is so anti social and one where nobody finds pleasent to talk to because of your ego's.

If copying and pasting a few sentences over and over(which you yourself do you hypocrite) again to stress a point is "weird" , i wonder what creating 40 over accounts and making large wall of texts that nobody even bothers to read is.

What a hypocritical bastard.

You just brought the word "pathetic" to a whole new level.

I dunno, Arnold. He may have similar opinions to Nebaris (in other words, completely false opinions), but unlike Nebaris, his points weren't destroyed a million times over again, and he appears to be nicer than Nebaris. Oh, and waaaaaaay less stuck-up and arrogant.

Exodus, if you could please refer to my points.

Nebaris, just drop dead.

Originally posted by Taven
LOL. Guilt by association appears to go a seriously long way over here. Exodus, I personally wouldn't bother. You're arguing with, quite possibly, the biggest wasteman on the internet, who's opinions and mannerisms appear to adjust in accordance with those around him. Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen so many forced 'pal's and 'son's in my life, not to mention the outright weird copying and pasting.

This coming from the biggest joke on the internet. You give a whole new meaning to the concepts of safe sex, abortion, and utter stupidity.

Firstly, get it right. It's nearing 200. Not that it matters, as it takes seconds to make an account, and done purely for the reason that I can.

Secondly, the biggest wasteman on the internet (and sheep, for that matter) is exactly what you are.

Taken directly from your profile, and the "Should revan be a white man" thread:

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Forth, you started with me, like you try to do with everyone else, only this time you came barking up the wrong tree, homie. You tried to call me out and in the process, you made yourself look EXTREMELY stupid and now everyone is just laughing at you. Even the 40 year old guy who cant get laid, is taking time from looking up kiddie porn, just to stop and laugh at you. LOL...you're a funny little kid...stay up man...and keep your sorry ass, pathetic posts coming, I could use a good laugh before I go to bed. You brighten my whole day.

Taken from this thread, minutes ago:

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Hell even the 40 year old guy who can't get laid surfing kiddie porn in his mothers basement pauses for a moment just to laugh at you.

Now while I'm sure that Darth Subjekt is immensely flattered that you're trying so hard to emulate him, it's getting slightly creepy and a little scary.

Now that, along with the extremely forced and copied mannerisms of other members here, the slightly odd method in seeking recognition for owning people on the internet, taking everything absolutely literally as far as conversing with people over the internet goes, and the forever vile language and irrational grudges you form, and it's been established; you = the wasteman.

As for your argument, it's perfectly fitting for your level of wasteman.

1. The fact that Tobin is aware of intimate information about the event in question in the first place (Nihilus pulling the fleet from the gravity well, which is confirmed by the omniscient narrator via the loading screen) automatically validates his credibility on the matter.

Along with the fact that there is no visible reason to question his authenticity, it can be safely assumed that Tobin, in this case, is being used as exposition, and thus, for all intents and purposes, his word can be treated factually.

2. As for you questioning the meaning of power within the statement, as hard as it may be to believe, it's even more annoyingly stupid than what you've already been saying. The entire lecture that Tobin was giving the party revolved around just how personally powerful a threat Nihilus was. The idea that it was a measure of the power of his military makes no sense whatsoever; Tobin, the second in command of a planetary sized military spoke on the matter in absolute awe; Nihilus' minimal sized fleet wouldn't be something that someone of such a position would be in complete awe of.

But anyways, I'm done, I have a new policy and it's that I converse with wastemen as minimally as I can, so bye now wasteman, and let's hope that if I ever choose to privilege you with more of my time, you won't be as big a wasteman as you are right now... wasteman.

It's rather funny how you're proud of the amount of socks you have, Nebaris.

Oh, and on a second note, regarding this debate in general, I don't think it's unlikely that Nihilus really pulled the Ravagar out of the gravity well. Not that it matters, as I've detailed in my post, as Luke has that beaten, quite handily.

Who cares? You're comparing one of Nihilus' lowest displays of power with Luke's best, and ignoring Nihilus' planetary level destructive showings. It's St00pid with a capital S and two zeroes.

Originally posted by Taven
Who cares? You're comparing one of Nihilus' lowest displays of power with Luke's best, and ignoring Nihilus' planetary level destructive showings. It's St00pid with a capital S and two zeroes.


http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l14/el_boxer/nobody_cares.jpg

what does it truly matter if nihilus did do that? or that he can drain an individual. What are the chances he could actually pull that off on luke? i really really doubt it. Chances are, he would find himself unable to move, and then realize it was cause luke OWNS him. Moving ships really means nothing: size matters not. The ships had no ability to KEEP themselves from being moved. Nihilus tries a similar move in a crushing manner against luke.... and luke blocks it.... on the to next part of the fight. what does it matter if nihilus can move a ship?

Originally posted by Taven
Who cares? You're comparing one of Nihilus' lowest displays of power with Luke's best, and ignoring Nihilus' planetary level destructive showings. It's St00pid with a capital S and two zeroes.

That's great, Nebaris, only that Luke possesses techniques that will make Nihilus' arsenal of weapons completely useless. Nihilus was stated to be capable of perceiving only locations that possess a massive amount of life force, and is, apparently, incapable of 'seeing' individual, normal people (otherwise, that Mandalorians blowing up his ship would be toast), and therefore, all Luke needs is the Fallanassi looping technique in order to avoid detection by Nihilus. And I don't think I'll find an argument when I say that Nihilus is waaaay below Luke in terms of saber abilities, correct?

To use one of your most commonly used expressions, there's certainly a chance that Nihilus' uber force drain was 'ritualistic in nature'. The details of his actual drain are unknown, so- while highly impressive- it could both be that it was done instanteously or done utilizing a prolonged ritual, which seems likely considering he didn't use his 'uber drain' on Telos.

And even so, Nihilus' TK techniques have not only been more than equally matched by Luke's more controlled, refined techniques, his drain is completely and utterly useless, especially seeing as Luke both possesses sufficiently powerful defenses and can possibly speed-blitz Nihilus.

Originally posted by Taven
Firstly, get it right. It's nearing 200. Not that it matters, as it takes seconds to make an account, and done purely for the reason that I can.

Secondly, the biggest wasteman on the internet (and sheep, for that matter) is exactly what you are.

Taken directly from your profile, and the "Should revan be a white man" thread:



Taken from this thread, minutes ago:



Now while I'm sure that Darth Subjekt is immensely flattered that you're trying so hard to emulate him, it's getting slightly creepy and a little scary.

Now that, along with the extremely forced and copied mannerisms of other members here, the slightly odd method in seeking recognition for owning people on the internet, taking everything absolutely literally as far as conversing with people over the internet goes, and the forever vile language and irrational grudges you form, and it's been established; you = the wasteman.

As for your argument, it's perfectly fitting for your level of wasteman.

1. The fact that Tobin is aware of intimate information about the event in question in the first place (Nihilus pulling the fleet from the gravity well, which is confirmed by the omniscient narrator via the loading screen) automatically validates his credibility on the matter.

Along with the fact that there is no visible reason to question his authenticity, it can be safely assumed that Tobin, in this case, is being used as exposition, and thus, for all intents and purposes, his word can be treated factually.

2. As for you questioning the meaning of power within the statement, as hard as it may be to believe, it's even more annoyingly stupid than what you've already been saying. The entire lecture that Tobin was giving the party revolved around just how personally powerful a threat Nihilus was. The idea that it was a measure of the power of his military makes no sense whatsoever; Tobin, the second in command of a planetary sized military spoke on the matter in absolute awe; Nihilus' minimal sized fleet wouldn't be something that someone of such a position would be in complete awe of.

But anyways, I'm done, I have a new policy and it's that I converse with wastemen as minimally as I can, so bye now wasteman, and let's hope that if I ever choose to privilege you with more of my time, you won't be as big a wasteman as you are right now... wasteman. Oh please like i am going to respond to that crap, i already refuted and explained why tobin cannot be taken seriously and i have already explained why the loading screen does not back him up.

Despite you claiming "personally i wouldn't bother with him", you contradict yourself and go ahead and actually try to conjure up a rebuttal already refuted earlier by at least 2 members which makes you look even more stupid and idiotic than you already are.

Its pretty amusing that you call me a wasteman seeing that you are obviously the biggest "wasteman"(for obvious reasons) and the biggest loser whom exists on the face of the earth.

You SHOULD get a new policy which is get-a-life.

First off, mabye you should try actually refuting Nebaris' point Ivalice (if you can) instead of dismissing them offhand, becuase they actually do blow sizable chunk's out of your argument.



It would be inconsequential if not for the worrying fact that thats exactly what stalin did too. And thas not a very favourable comparison for you. plus it shows that you completely lack the spine to be yourself.



Ha!! Thanks for backing me up Arnold! If tobin made the statement before he decided to help the Exile then he would be depressed and unlikely to lie and if he did it afterwards then he wouldn't be lying to his own allies now would he.



You know its funny how you once told me that you yourself used to be 'even stupider' than me. I gues you must have been some form of dog then.



Do you even know what hypothetical means? Let me spell it out for you: It doesn't have to have been implied anywhere, I made the statement up, 'turd'.



What nebaris said.



What is in a name?



My brother did. I only watched the big fights.

Idiot.



Yeah, becuase Tobin was only 2 when that happened so couldn't possibly have been there. And he could have been safe on another ship.




Again, I'm not sad enough to spend 20 hours playing through a game just to prove a point to You.



No, you have to prove it seeing as You made the claim the tobin wasn't there.



Mabye becuase all the ships were already on the surface so he wouldn't have to. Or do you not actuallly understand what the MSG actually did.




....... By answering it. Are you O.K. becuase that was preety easy, even for you.



No I gave you a paragraph with 2 points in. You only answered one.


Fail.



No, my Supported theory is the most likely one and is therefore the correct one. Untill you actually come up with something that can challenge it with enough evidence, I'll just be here grinning cheerfully. My theory is sufficiently backed to be the most likely, wether you fume or not.



Nice try, but no.

Oh, and thanks to Nebaris for helping me.

sorry, crimzom, but I don't know if I have enough time to respond to you. I'll try though.



That might put them on a similar tier, When was this.



Caedus, Vader and Nomi Sunrider could all do this, not enough.



Not really much use here.

see you all on Monday!!! Sorry Crimzom.

I'm going to make this very simple and for the final time: it all comes down to whether or not Tobin was present to witness Darth Nihilus retrieve the (fleet? ship?) from the mass shadows. If he was, then the statement can be used, though you'd still need to substantiate how the feat was performed; was Nihilus retrieving the (fleet? ship?) from the mass shadows on sheer power? Was a ritual used? How long did it take? If Tobin wasn't there, then the statement means absolutely nothing. Unlike the embarrassing analogies you tried to use earlier, Tobin isn't an omniscient third party nor is he a member of the historical council of a galactic hyperpower that has spent years on research with unlimited resources and budget.

It's not my job to prove or disprove anything. You want to prove the statement? Fine and dandy. Now prove he was there.

Wow you couldn't even answer the other half of my argument, pathetic little boy.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
First off, mabye you should try actually refuting Nebaris' point Ivalice (if you can) instead of dismissing them offhand, becuase they actually do blow sizable chunk's out of your argument.





First off you british bastard, his "argument" was the same as yours which i already had the liberty of shredding apart time and again.

Secondly whats the point of even bothering to respond to his posts when i already made it clear why tobin can't be used as a credible source?

Thirdly, who in their right frame of mind would want to get into a debate with this nut case seeing that even if his posts get destroyed, he simply reposts the same thing again but rephrases them?




Originally posted by Darth Exodus

It would be inconsequential if not for the worrying fact that thats exactly what stalin did too. And thas not a very favourable comparison for you. plus it shows that you completely lack the spine to be yourself. The thing is people around me DID help me strengthen the spine to be myself as compared to you whom is sitting on a high horse and thinks so greatly of himself.

You can go on a ramble crap like "Oh fcuk its not very favourable of you blah blah" but it won't change the fact that i am an pleasent and acceptable member of society as compared to you whom's parents regretted not going for an abortion.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Ha!! Thanks for backing me up Arnold! If tobin made the statement before he decided to help the Exile then he would be depressed and unlikely to lie and if he did it afterwards then he wouldn't be lying to his own allies now would he.


How does this quote back you up when your original claim was that he wouldn't lie because he was going to die soon?

You are seriously a f-ucking idiot(and incase you don't know what an idiot is, click this link http://www.thefreedictionary.com/idiot).

So how exactly this backs your point? Again prove up that his statement was true, you have been asked this time and again and you have yet to give a valid answer.

Again how was he "depressed" when he was in a conversation with the exile? How does that prove that he was telling the truth?
Find another reliable source that actually states that nihilus pulled the ship out of the gravity well.


prove up or simply shut the hell up.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

You know its funny how you once told me that you yourself used to be 'even stupider' than me. I gues you must have been some form of dog then.
Correct, i may have been extremely stupid in the past, but at least i learned from my mistakes and transformed into a much better ,far more respectable person and someone which people take seriously as compared to you whom is going downhill at an incredibly fast rate and doing absolutely nothing about it but dig a bigger grave.

Hell ask gideon(arguebly the most intelligent and most respected member in SWV) to substantiate and back all that up.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Do you even know what hypothetical means? Let me spell it out for you: It doesn't have to have been implied anywhere, I made the statement up, 'turd'. Ah yes so now you made it up, how am i or anybody for that matter is supposed to take you seriously now?

Once again your "made up analogy" makes absolutely no sense.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

What nebaris said.
Which he simply repeated the refuted argument made by you..
Originally posted by Darth Exodus


What is in a name? Oh dear you can't possibly be this stupid.

I simply point your your disability to name the ship correctly and you come out with crap like "what is in a name".


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

My brother did. I only watched the big fights.

Idiot.
I'm not sad enough to play through the whole game to get the quote for you though, but rest assured I've seen it pretty recently (days)..

You didn't specify weather you played it or not idiot and from that quote it appears that you implied you played the game.

Idiot.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Yeah, becuase Tobin was only 2 when that happened so couldn't possibly have been there. And he could have been safe on another ship.
1) Prove he was on another ship
2) Prove he was even there in the first place, prove that his presence would be hidden from the sith.
3) Even if he was on a ship, he would have to be up close to actually see nihilus performing the feat which by then he would have gotten nihilus attention and thus killed in the process or indoctrinated.


Can't answer the above 3? Then shut the hell up.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Again, I'm not sad enough to spend 20 hours playing through a game just to prove a point to You. Then simply concede. Without evidence, don't claim it.

But your sad enough to argue like a broken record despite being destroyed by 2 members. Your sad enough to be coming back like a stray hound begging for scraps. Your sad enough to even exist on this world.

You probably know you can't prove up hence the need to give an excuse, hell i don't even see wookiepedia mentioning that he drained other worlds.





Originally posted by Darth Exodus

No, you have to prove it seeing as You made the claim the tobin wasn't there. No, i don't have to prove a negative. You made the claim that he was telling the truth and you failed to prove up.

And for you to prove that he was telling the truth, you have to prove that he actually saw the feat being performed(or he wouldn't know nihilus pulled the ship would he?) which means you have to prove he was there.

Now, shut up kid and actually find out what the burden of proof means http://www.legal-explanations.com/definitions/burden-of-proof.htm


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Mabye becuase all the ships were already on the surface so he wouldn't have to. Or do you not actuallly understand what the MSG actually did. Ah yes so all the ships were on the surface is it so why the need to waste energy to lift it? Its funny how you claim that "nihilus lifted the ship to the surface" and then contradict yourself by claiming "oh maybe the ships were already there".

You are seriously an idiot beyond belief.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus

....... By answering it. Are you O.K. becuase that was preety easy, even for you. Again, how is this even relevant to what i asked when you posted something irrelevant?

Go find out what relevance is idiot http://www.thefreedictionary.com/relevant




Originally posted by Darth Exodus

No I gave you a paragraph with 2 points in. You only answered one. A "paragraph" made up of a few petty sentences and i didn't respond to the other one simply because you have no credibility at all and the fact that it made little to no sense.

Once again you failed to respond to all my posts.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

I Failed. Fixed.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

No, my Supported theory is the most likely one and is therefore the correct one. Untill you actually come up with something that can challenge it with enough evidence, I'll just be here grinning cheerfully. My theory is sufficiently backed to be the most likely, wether you fume or not. LOL how is it even supported in the first place you moron? What is there to support it? What is there to substantiate it? What is there to back it up?

Don't even ask me to come up with "enough evidence to challenge it" when you simply couldn't post any solid evidence at all.




Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Nice try, but no.

Oh, and thanks to Nebaris for helping me. Ah so you fail to understand the concept of actually proving something at all. Thank god you aren't an lawyer or all criminals would get the death sentence due to your incompetence.

Lol and do thank your boyfriend.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm going to make this very simple and for the final time: it all comes down to whether or not Tobin was present to witness Darth Nihilus retrieve the (fleet? ship?) from the mass shadows. If he was, then the statement can be used, though you'd still need to substantiate how the feat was performed; was Nihilus retrieving the (fleet? ship?) from the mass shadows on sheer power? Was a ritual used? How long did it take? If Tobin wasn't there, then the statement means absolutely nothing. Unlike the embarrassing analogies you tried to use earlier, Tobin isn't an omniscient third party nor is he a member of the historical council of a galactic hyperpower that has spent years on research with unlimited resources and budget.

It's not my job to prove or disprove anything. You want to prove the statement? Fine and dandy. Now prove he was there. Well said gideon, and thank you.


Now exodus, if you are even intelligent enough to actually read, i suggest you respond to THIS first, If you can answer and prove all that with something solid, then i will concede, but if you can't then i simply won't stop.

Tobin was probably not at Malachor to witness Nihilus lifting the Ravager. Why would he be there to witness Nihilus when Nihilus acquired the ship which would later become his flag ship when it is more likely to have happened way before Nihilus and his sith faction allied with Vaklu and Tobin. Furthermore is much more likely that he only "tore" the Ravager from Malachor's gravity. The Ravager looks like it got the crap kicked out of it when the msg was activated. All the other interdictor ships look to be in perfect condition. I highly doubt that Nihilus pulled the interdictor ships out of the gravity well and given them a full "pimp my ride" makeover and leave the Ravager looking like a ghost ship. It is much more likely that he formed his own faction of sith that came with their own fleet of interdictor ships.

Originally posted by Wasteman 3000
Oh please like i am going to respond to that crap, i already refuted and explained why tobin cannot be taken seriously

No, you're assuming that he wasn't present, and that that somehow makes him an uncredible source, and failing to understand that possessing intimate knowledge of what took place in the first place (Nihilus pulling the Ravager out of the mass shadows of Malachor) automatically affirms his credibility.



No, you haven't, and for two reasons:

1. You're an idiot.

2. The loading screen does back him up, and no such explanation can be made.

The loading screen outright states that he pulled the Ravager out of the gravity well, which is exactly what Tobin tells the party. Officially backed the fvck up.



Which would mean that I wouldn't do as much if I were in Exodus' position, as apparently your arguments with Exodus bring out the most in your wastemanish ways.

Perhaps if you been taught how to speak first hand rather than learnt by picking out miscellaneous statements from people on the internet, you would have a better grasp of this.



To anyone who has no concept of context and exposition whatsoever, and has been ignoring the fact that my response included new bits of information that haven't ever been brought up on this entire forum let alone addressed, you'd be absolutely correct.



Right. Has anyone ever told you that the word 'whom' seriously doesn't suit you? Because it's a really bad look for you, as is applying bold font, dashes, and blocked capitals at extremely odd and random intervals, you wanaBEE bodybuilding waste-man.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l14/el_boxer/nobody_cares.jpg

Well I wouldn't go that far. While you and I, and likely many more don't care much for Sidi-Boy's mad ramblings, I'm sure some might. Saying that "nobody cares" was uncharacteristically quite rude of you.

Originally posted by true jedi
what does it truly matter if nihilus did do that? or that he can drain an individual. What are the chances he could actually pull that off on luke? i really really doubt it. Chances are, he would find himself unable to move, and then realize it was cause luke OWNS him. Moving ships really means nothing: size matters not. The ships had no ability to KEEP themselves from being moved. Nihilus tries a similar move in a crushing manner against luke.... and luke blocks it.... on the to next part of the fight. what does it matter if nihilus can move a ship?

The "size matters not" kind of reasoning when it comes to telekinesis truly baffles the mind. Given that we have displays of both telekinetic Force Users lacking the ability to lift objects of certain masses (such as Mace Windu in Shatterpoint, when he couldn't lift the steam crawler), as well as telekinetic Force Users being forced to apply more effort into lifting heavier objects (such as Luke casually lifting remote droids in the Dark Nest series, and then struggling with manipulating a Dovin Basel in Vector Prime) would indicate that size mass really does matter.

And so what if the ships couldn't "KEEP themselves from being moved," it was an entire fleet, including the Ravager, and Nihilus was capable of pulling it right out of a gravity well. It's an extremely impressive expression of power, irregardless of the fact that it wasn't applied on a Force User. That's not to say that it puts him above Luke in ability, but it's not Nihilus' greatest display of power, whereas his destruction of the life of Katarr (while in a weak, hungry state no less) puts his power on a level that Luke's can't be said to reach.

Firstly, I'd like to make it clear that I didn't even come close to laying down a stance, I was only pointing out the fact that your comparison was extremely one-sided, so this response was quite unnecesary.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
That's great, Nebaris, only that Luke possesses techniques that will make Nihilus' arsenal of weapons completely useless. Nihilus was stated to be capable of perceiving only locations that possess a massive amount of life force, and is, apparently, incapable of 'seeing' individual, normal people (otherwise, that Mandalorians blowing up his ship would be toast),

This also severely baffles the mind. Gideon used this argument the last time, and it's stupid; even if you wanted to interpret Tobin's words in such a way, the fact that Nihilus was capable of sensing and using the Force against: a) the Non-Force Sensitive Canderous, b) the Wound in the Force (meaning, low presence in the Force) Exile, and c) Visas Marr (Force User, but a single individual nonetheless) would quite clearly tell you that he's nowhere near incapable of applying his senses on such a low scale if the situation would demand it (which this one most certainly would). So no, he most certainly won't be incapable of sensing a single individual in such a scenario as this, and the fact that his perceptions were stated to have grown with his power and that he was capable of "seeing" the Force on a cosmic scale would indicate that his Force perceptions were extremely potent; all he needs to do is focus those perceptions on a low scale and it would require someone more powerful than he is to cloak themselves from him.



Firstly, if Nihilus really couldn't sense individual beings with the Force (which is exactly what you stated to be the case a few lines up), the Fallanassi "looping" technique wouldn't be at all necessary.

Secondly, stop relying on second hand knowledge; the Fallanassi technique is simply a powerful stealth ability, it's not a "looping" technique, and it doesn't completely rid your body of the Force like some have claimed.

Thirdly, Luke hasn't ever displayed the ability to shield his presence from someone as powerful as Nihilus, and for it to be safely assumed, an argument would need to be made for Luke's superiority over him in Force ability. And there isn't one.



In technique? Probably not, though Luke's hardly the man in that regard anyway. His training's been mostly rushed, and I don't recall him ever being noted as a lightsaber prodigy or an amazingly talented practitioner of the weapon either (again, talking purely technique here). He hasn't displayed amazing technical ability, though his level of experience and the scope of his training would almost definitely put him far above Nihilus in the category, who we can't really say anything good about in that respect.



As I was attempting to say (Kadesh would have a field day with that one) in our last debate, the keyboard function you'd be looking for there would be (Replace * with /, it'll work just fine).



Not completely. We know that he was weak, and that his hunger was consuming him, and that he would have likely felt the need to take drastic action. We know that his mindset would likely be beyond an organised procedure such as a ritual. We have Visas, who was most definitely being used as exposition in the Unseen, Unheard comic, and someone who, as a Miralakula, was naturally gifted at sensing life and death through the Force, describe the entire process as happening in what can be interpreted as an instant (with the upper limit being "quick", as evident by describing the process as "when my Lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died." The details are hardly unknown, and the event was used by the game creators to set Nihilus up to be as powerful the Force of Nature that he clearly was; that he relied on a prolonged ritual or something would clearly not be true to his character and the game creators' ultimate vision.



This has already been addressed. He had been tricked into thinking that there was an academy full of Jedi for him to drain. Upon realising that that wasn't the case, his motives likely would have changed; I know it was believed that Nihilus might not have felt the presence of the Exile's party on his ship, but for all we know, he quite easily could have and was waiting for their arrival so he could feed on the Force presence of the only Force sensitives around: his former apprentice and Jedi counterpart. The point is, we don't know his ultimate motive at that point in time, and the incident can't be used to establish that it would take a large amount of time for him to use the Force on such a scale. It's worthless to bring up, as no point can be made out of it.

The fact remains that everything points to the destruction of Katarr being done by Nihilus under his regular level of ability (by that I mean unaided; it was his regular level of ability in a weakened stated), in a pretty quick, effortless (again, evident by the way Visas describes the event) way, and given how high the probability is that all of the above was the case, and considering that these versus threads are completely speculative, Occam's Razor would dictate all of the above, and put Nihilus at a level of ability that Luke can't be said to reach.



You're again comparing an unknown to a known. Just because we haven't seen Nihilus display as much speed as Luke or reaction timing to keep up with such speed, it doesn't mean that he doesn't possess it; again, Nihilus has ultimately displayed a level of Force ability that would put him beyond Luke in the category, and given that ability with the Force is essentially what makes Luke as fast as he is, the possibility is virtually nonexistent, and stupid to point out.

Irrelevant. Palpatine managed to shield his presence for decades from the collective eye of the Jedi Order, despite the fact that he occupied the same planet that they did, met with the most powerful of them regularly, and ascending to the most powerful political office in the galaxy and neither Yoda nor Anakin were any the wiser; Yoda's power was seemingly equal to Palpatine's own and Anakin's strength in the Force dwarfed the Emperor's.

Reconcile that with your theory.



LOL. This doesn't cut it. You're not in a position to interpret the purpose of a videogame character to the rest of us and use it as a means to dictate his level of power. Otherwise, I can just say that, since Luke was intended to be the ultimate hero of the ultimate saga (a timeframe more important than KotOR's), he is clearly the most powerful being in the whole of the mythos. One can also attribute similar levels of power to Palpatine, Yoda, and Anakin. And I still win.

Originally posted by Taven



Right. Has anyone ever told you that the word 'whom' seriously doesn't suit you? Because it's a really bad look for you, as is applying bold font, dashes, and blocked capitals at extremely odd and random intervals, you wanaBEE bodybuilding waste-man.


Which would mean that I wouldn't do as much if I were in Exodus' position, as apparently your arguments with Exodus bring out the most in your wastemanish ways.

Ah yes "wanabee" bodybuilding wasteman, its amusing as this comes from the absolute biggest joke on the forums.

I believe i already made it clear why the loading screen does not back him up, your inability to read only makes you look more idiotic than you currently are.

Oh and which would mean you wouldn't do as much in exodus position? Have you not realised you are doing far more than him? Or just simply too stupid to realise it?

Nice try calling me a "wannabe" when infact countless people i know and don't know tell me by "body is getting much more muscular".

Go ahead and respond, i have something better do because i-have-a-life.

Originally posted by Gideon
Irrelevant. Palpatine managed to shield his presence for decades from the collective eye of the Jedi Order, despite the fact that he occupied the same planet that they did, met with the most powerful of them regularly, and ascending to the most powerful political office in the galaxy and neither Yoda nor Anakin were any the wiser; Yoda's power was seemingly equal to Palpatine's own and Anakin's strength in the Force dwarfed the Emperor's.

Reconcile that with your theory.

No, it's not irrelevant. Sidi-Boy made the claim that Luke will be able to shield his entire presence from Nihilus, so the BoP falls on him to prove it. He would need to either establish that Luke is ultimately the greater Force User of the two, or that he's ever been able to shield his presence from beings with as great a level of power, or more specifically, perception as Nihilus has, and a case can't be made for either.

As for your ridiculous false comparison, Sidious was only shielding his Force sensitivity from the Jedi, not his presence, and that was something that:

a) The Jedi can't be said to have even been actively trying to sense, and

b) Doesn't even imply the absolute negation of the Jedi's abilities.

In a versus scenario, however, if Luke were to vanish in front of Nihilus' eyes, Nihilus would be actively attempting to use the Force to locate him, and if Niilus was somehow incapable of doing so, it would be because Luke was capable of completely negating Nihilus' abilities (that his ability to shield himself > Nihilus' ability to see things via the force - the two polar opposites of a fundamental application of the Force), which you could only make a case for if Luke was the ultimately greater Force User, or if he had ever displayed the ability to shield his presence from a being like Nihilus.



I think you'll find I am.

"Not completely. We know that he was weak, and that his hunger was consuming him, and that he would have likely felt the need to take drastic action. We know that his mindset would likely be beyond an organised procedure such as a ritual. We have Visas, who was most definitely being used as exposition in the Unseen, Unheard comic, and someone who, as a Miralakula, was naturally gifted at sensing life and death through the Force, describe the entire process as happening in what can be interpreted as an instant (with the upper limit being "quick", as evident by describing the process as "when my Lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died." The details are hardly unknown, and the event was used by the game creators to set Nihilus up to be as powerful the Force of Nature that he clearly was; that he relied on a prolonged ritual or something would clearly not be true to his character and the game creators' ultimate vision."

"The fact remains that everything points to the destruction of Katarr being done by Nihilus under his regular level of ability (by that I mean unaided; it was his regular level of ability in a weakened stated), in a pretty quick, effortless (again, evident by the way Visas describes the event) way, and given how high the probability is that all of the above was the case, and considering that these versus threads are completely speculative, Occam's Razor would dictate all of the above, and put Nihilus at a level of ability that Luke can't be said to reach."

Given the speculatory nature of these threads, Occam's Razor is perfectly admissible in dictating the stance that should be taken, and Occam's Razor would dictate that all that Nihilus displayed was completely unaided. You questioning whether Nihilus used a ritual or not would be like me questioning whether or not Palpatine had been gathering Force energies for hours before his fights with Yoda and Mace in RotS, or Luke in DE, or before he turned the Prophets of the Darkside to ash, or decimated the hundreds of stormtroopers in the Empire comics, or pretty much any combat related action that he ever took , and that he was ten times more powerful during each and every one of the events. You can't definitively disprove those possibilities, but that doesn't mean we take them into account, and that's because we rely on Occam's Razor to rule out the possibility of something that all evidence suggests didn't happen, purely for the sake of the argument.



Except for the fact that a hero isn't defined by his level of power, and that the importance of the saga doesn't dictate how powerful the hero needs to be. This was a ridiculous false comparison.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Ah yes "wanabee" bodybuilding wasteman, its amusing as this comes from the absolute biggest joke on the forums.

I believe i already made it clear why the loading screen does not back him up, your inability to read only makes you look more idiotic than you currently are.

Oh and which would mean you wouldn't do as much in exodus position? Have you not realised you are doing far more than him? Or just simply too stupid to realise it?

Nice try calling me a "wannabe" when infact countless people i know and don't know tell me by "body is getting much more muscular".

Go ahead and respond, i have something better do because i-have-a-life.

Good Lord you still can't keep your fingers off of the copy and paste buttons? Even in the very thread you were exposed as the Star Wars Versus Forum's own personal photocopying machine that you are, to the person that exposed you? You make Darth Sexy look like his own person. And please, nobody wants to here about your flabby ass biceps, chubby cheeks, not even Captain Rex is getting excited.

Wasteman 3000 > ignore, now.

Originally posted by Taven
Good Lord you still can't keep your fingers off of the copy and paste buttons? Even in the very thread you were exposed as the Star Wars Versus Forum's own personal photocopying machine that you are, to the person that exposed you? You make Darth Sexy look like his own person. And please, nobody wants to here about your flabby ass biceps, chubby cheeks, not even Captain Rex is getting excited.

Wasteman 3000 > ignore, now. Ah yes the idiot still fails to realise that my fingers typed on several keys in order to type up my previous post rather than "copy and paste" as my previous post was copied from absolutely nothing.

Get your eyes checked before making absurd claims.

Funny how you claim nobody is interested about my "flabby ass biceps and chubby cheeks" when infact it at the least(not that i have "flabs" or am "flabby" far better looking than that scrawny body of yours, hell people can't tell weather your a living skeleton or a human being.


Once again get-a-life and stfu. Welcome to my ignored list.

"Schwarzenegger

This person is on your Ignore List on account of being a wasteman, sheep, and bragging about his giant bingo wings. To view this post click "

Originally posted by Taven
"Schwarzenegger

This person is on your Ignore List on account of being a wasteman, sheep, and bragging about his giant bingo wings. To view this post click " How are you not blocked yet?

Originally posted by Tangible God
How are you not blocked yet? I think the correct phrase is: How are you not dead yet?

more like - "how was he born in the first place"?

Well you see when a mummy and a daddy love each other Verrrry much they... (lewd explanation).... and thats how babies are made. At least untill the year 2020.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Well you see when a mummy and a daddy love each other Verrrry much they... (lewd explanation).... and thats how babies are made. At least untill the year 2020. Or his birth could have been unplanned for(rape, premarital sex, lab experiment, alien hybrid).

Birth control would have been his parents best friend but like i said, it is unknown why or how he was born in the first place. He could even be an aborted fetus who survived and was put into a test tube thus growing into the idiot he has become.

Now exodus, this must be true because i say so as you implied "tobin says so, so it must be real"

Actually, two of those probably would have been planned for.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Actually, two of those probably would have been planned for. Oh right ok.

This should solve the matter if anyone actually paid any attention to it. The fulcrum of this argument is that Tobin actually knew facts about the Ravager that would have been unknown to anyone not familiar with it or told sufficient facts. For a start, that it came from Malachor. Only someone who was at the battle (Canderous) would know that it fell at malachor. Tobin wasn't ( at least not provably). So someone must have told him where the ship came from. This would of course lead to questions of how Nihilus got it. Another is the existence of the Mass Shadow Generator, which no-one, other than someone present or informed about would know about.
This is backed upo by my own arguments about why he wasn't lying. For a start, he wouldn't lie to his own allies. That would just be stupid and not something that a military man would stoop to. For another thing, it would make no sense for the game developers to put that in if it wasn't true, especially given the lengths that were made to make him into an uber character (pretty much everyone goes on about how uber he is including the exile and traya). Etc, read the rest.

If that is not good enough for you then we shall have to move away from certainties into uncertainties. We know that Nihilus got the Ravager from malachor, the only thing we need to verify is how. Again let me state: he needs to have done this through some way that we must decide upon. Occums razor states that it would be the most likely way that is the correct way. This would be via Nihilus using the Force. I've already posted why this would be the most likely version of events. No other versions have something directly backing it up (Tobins statement) even if it is potentially fallible. But fallible support is still support. Juries convict on fallible evidence so why not we? If something is supported by something fallible, does it not still stay up?
If there is no other version (of events) available, then the only version must be taken as fact. If there are other versions available then the most likely should be taken as fact (untill another time).





Ha!! Buy a dictionary. I doubt that they've changed the meaning for 'pleasant and acceptable' to Vile and Repugnant.




Oh dear. you can't really be this uncultured can you?

How can you not even recognise that classic quote.

Anyway, I had to say something. Would you have prefered it if I had said that birthcontrol sould be your parents new god, or something?




Yes it did. You either just lacked the wit to understand it, disliked it becuase it beat your point or those steroids are donig funny things to your brain.



1. i never made that (1st) claim
2. How can you lift something to the surface unless its buried? I never said that.
3. The ships were on the surface. You can see this if you actually play through the game. You actually walk through several.



Again, it did make sense, you're just stupid/petty/insane on steroids.



It wouldn't. They were allies, remember? he wouldn't be hiding.



Yeah, becuase you'd have to be really, really close to see a tiny thing like the Ravager. Nice one, Ace

Thats me, signing off.

Btw these are the arguments that Ivalice says 'make no sense', just to clear that up. Judge for yourselves.



Ivalice asked me how I know that Nihilus was weakened after ttrying to drain the Exile.



Ivalice said that nihilus' power in pulling the Ravager out of Malachor could be credited to his fleet.

Now, i don't have the time to reply to that... yet.

But i thought i asked you to quote gideons last post and outright answer and debunk them before replying to mine?

Or do you lack the courage to actually even attempt to try to debunk them?

I'll be back later, and this time because you failed to quote gideons post, i will make sure you get humiliated and owned.

Gideons quote asked the impossible, I can not prove that Tobin was there to witniss the event. There. Happy now? Now exept that my version of events is truth. Becuase if you don't then i'll pimp slap you with a donut, just like my old pal the Joker.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Gideons quote asked the impossible, I can not prove that Tobin was there to witniss the event. There. Happy now? Now exept that my version of events is truth. Becuase if you don't then i'll pimp slap you with a donut, just like my old pal the Joker. Ah and because you failed to prove that tobin was there to witness the event then how can his statement be credible?

Therefore you couldn't prove that tobins statement was valid.

Read the above and learn.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Read the above and learn. Right and gideons statement already debunks and destroys your entire argument smartypants, he asked you a simple question, which is to prove that tobin was there to witness the ship being lifted which would then validate his statement.

You are still coming up with unsupported and ridiculous assertions to prove tobins points.

Once again refute gideons post before attempting to refute mine.

Someone doesn't need to see something to know its true. The fact that tobin knows intimate details about the event proves he wasn't making it up, and I've proven why he wasn't lying. etc. learn to read

Thanks to Neb, wherever he is.

One of you needs to copy both statements (Tobin's and the loading screen's) and then someone can verify, just in case Exodus embellishes or puts a nice spin on it.

Originally posted by Gideon
And what does the loading screen say?

Loading Screen says

The ravager was hauled from the gravity well at Malachor V by its new master. He used it to escape imprisonment on Malachor V

I would like to point out that it says nothing of him pulling a fleet from Malachor like Exodus also defended earlier in this thread.

It would seem that not only are Nebaris and Exodus wrong, but the coffin has been nailed shut on their entire argument. Two sources discuss the retrieval of Darth Nihilus's flagship from the mass shadows -- yet only one confirms that he removed the fleet as well -- that source being an insane, delusional underling who wasn't even present to witness the feat in question. And not only can you prove that he wasn't there, you can't substantiate or describe the events of it. How do you know that Nihilus didn't perform a technique to retrieve his flagship? A ritual? How long did it take?

I'm afraid he's losing more luster by the minute. A couple of half-trained Jedi were able to hurl Admiral Pellaeon's fleet of Imperial-class Star Destroyers (each one being larger than the Ravager) out of the Yavin system instantly; Darth Vader's Secret Apprentice rips one out of the sky with minimal effort.

Essentially, you have no way to prove that Nihilus's telekinesis is extremely impressive. Is it weak? Surely not. But you'll need a lot more than that to insinuate that it is upper tier.

Substantiate and elucidate and then we might get somewhere. Otherwise, this feat is laughable.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Loading Screen says

The ravager was hauled from the gravity well at Malachor V by its new master. He used it to escape imprisonment on Malachor V

I would like to point out that it says nothing of him pulling a fleet from Malachor like Exodus also defended earlier in this thread.

doesn't say he used the force either....

Here is my point tho: just because he can pull a ship out a gravity well (even if he did.... ) big deal. Kyp durron pulled a ship out of a sun, do we put him in the upper tier? i think not.

second: even if nihilus is upper tier in telekinises, how does that help him against luke? Luke has the ability to anchor himself in the force so that "no power in the universe can move him" (near the end of the Dark nest series) so how is nihilus going to have any affect?

Point-of-fact, truejedi, is that Kyp Durron's feat isn't as impressive as removing a Star Destroyer from mass shadows; first, the ship in question was the Sun Crusher -- which is about the size of an X-wing -- and second, (to my knowledge) Yavin doesn't generate the density of a black hole.

Though, you're right. Specifically, it doesn't mention what he used. It could have been telekinesis. It could have been a ritual. It could have been a tractor beam.

The sun crusher is that small? Jesus I thought it was gigantic.

it was small enough to dock beside the millenium falcon, this is true. and you are of course right about yavin. I was trying to put Kyp in the ballpark, so to speak, but he probably couldn't be placed there with that feat alone.

Its true that Dorsk 81 by channelling the force from mere dozens of jedi apprentices was able to move an ENTIRE FLEET of star destroyers out of Yavin's solar system in AN INSTANT. So until we know nihilus didn't channel the force like that, His achievement doesn't really rank that high (though i'm still not ready to concede the point that he actually used the force at all....)

Originally posted by truejedi
it was small enough to dock beside the millenium falcon, this is true. and you are of course right about yavin. I was trying to put Kyp in the ballpark, so to speak, but he probably couldn't be placed there with that feat alone.

Its true that Dorsk 81 by channelling the force from mere dozens of jedi apprentices was able to move an ENTIRE FLEET of star destroyers out of Yavin's solar system in AN INSTANT. So until we know nihilus didn't channel the force like that, His achievement doesn't really rank that high (though i'm still not ready to concede the point that he actually used the force at all....) Didn't Dorsk 81 also use the temple summit as a focusing point?

i honestly don't remember. if it was implicitly stated, i'd have to read it. I know they went to the top of the temple, but i don't think during the action that is stated. May be stated later by Kyp when he's looking back on it, but as i said, i'm not sure.

Well, I've always thought that pulling a ship (fleet?) out of a gravity well so powerful that it ripped apart 2 fleets as well as Malachor 5 was a pretty impressive feat. But then I've always been a bit eccentric.



I thgink that Nihilus' rather bad habit of killing everything around him kind of points to him not being a ritual kind of guy.



What technique is there that does that? Except for Force pull of course.
I guess Palpatines wormhole thing could also do it though. But that wasn't invented yet.



Length of time isn't really a factor. He can't just pull it out bit by bit like a splinter, the gravity stops that. Admitedly if he took longer then it would make him seem weaker but he's still doing the same amont of work, he's just straining.

Gideon did you actually read the above arguments. If not then please do, I'm interested in what you think of them.

see you all tommorrow

If by 'eccentric' you actually mean 'retarded', I'd agree. See, I have standards. I find effortlessly destroying a fleet of state-of-the-art ships (which the Ravager isn't) with shields capable of resisting gigatons of energy impressive, and for the pedastel that you put Nihilus on, his feat isn't in proportion.



Right... so mass murderers can't be capable of rituals? Tell that to Palpatine, whose body count is lightyears ahead of Nihilus's. Are you taking AP classes in Shitty Logic: 101?



Forgive me for not being up to date on esoteric rituals. Furthermore, I never said that it was a rare technique in nature. It could have summoned the appropriate strength for him to use, however.



Or he could be pulling at the ship for hours upon hours, fighting against gravity. Impressive for stamina and tenacity, but since the details of the technique are unknown and both Nebaris and yourself seem incapable of proving it was LOLZ POWER! ... we'll move on.

Not my argument, so I'm not going to get too involved in it, but the shielding point is stupid. They protect the ships from external damage. Dorsk 81 and the Jedi who were joined to him located their powers directly on the ships, which would automatically bypass the ships defencive capabilities.

Also,



I think what Exodus was making an allusion to was how Nihilus was more force of nature than he was entity. He perceived the universe around him in cosmic proportions, and no longer possessed a "human" way of thinking, making it unlikely he would ever rely on an organised procedure. There is of course also the fact that Traya (the person who trained him) stated that he "knew nothing of knowledge"; while this naturally shouldn't be taken absolutely literally as he's seen using the basics such as telekinesis and Force lightning, as well as his severing technique (which apparently came natural to him), I think it would be safe to rule out ritual lore of the Force.

Stfu.

Dorsk 81 didn't destroy the ships... they were just moved.

The problem being, Nebaris, is that you can't pick and choose what Nihilus does and does not know and what the extent of his knowledge is. Until such a time that you can prove that he has no knowledge of any such rituals or give me details regarding this feat, its ambiguity makes it worthless.

Its funny how I'm 'retarded' when I have yet to bash my head against the keyboard, drool on my neighbour, or molest a monitor.

Just found this and wondered what you all thought of it. It's pretty clearly putting Nihilus on a whole new plane, so how does this relate to Skywalker. Probably doesn't mean much to most of you though.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Just found this and wondered what you all thought of it. It's pretty clearly putting Nihilus on a whole new plane, so how does this relate to Skywalker. Probably doesn't mean much to most of you though.

LOL.

No. Kreia is a fallible third party, her statements are subject to hyperbole and exaggeration. She made similar statements of Revan being "the heart of the Force" and shit like that.

Yes but exaggerating on that level seems pretty stupid, especially when here assurtions of his power are backed up by numerous other characters, the documented level of Nihilus' ability and all that we know of his character



No, she just said that she looked that way though the force. like a pulsing heart. It was an opinion that bears no relation to anything in particular.

Kreia, again, is a fallible third party with biases and her statement is one of total speculation, since she is not as powerful as Nihilus, how does she know what he can and can't perceive?

Originally posted by Gideon
Kreia, again, is a fallible third party with biases and her statement is one of total speculation, since she is not as powerful as Nihilus, how does she know what he can and can't perceive?

Wasn't she his master as she was Sion's? Kreia's knowledge of the force is extremely extensive and while being a fallible 3rd party character on some issues, it's unlikely she's a "fallible" character on ones such as the force or the ancient sith.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wasn't she his master as she was Sion's? Kreia's knowledge of the force is extremely extensive and while being a fallible 3rd party character on some issues, it's unlikely she's a "fallible" character on ones such as the force or the ancient sith. Does that mean tulak makes revan look like a child playing with a lightsaber despite never seeing him in action nor having his holocron?

She tends to exaggerate sometimes.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Does that mean tulak makes revan look like a child playing with a lightsaber despite never seeing him in action nor having his holocron?

She tends to exaggerate sometimes.

No, not everything she says can be taken at face value. For instance, she is a sith historian so she is an authority on the history of the sith and the valley of the dark lords. However, she is merely speculating on Tulak Hord's skill unless she is going based on a holocron or manuscripts or something. With the force, she seems to be the most knowledgeable force user of her time easily, and one of the most knowledgeable ever, so when she is discussing certain aspects of the force, I believe they can be taken at face value. Since she was also the master of Sion and Nihilus, she has no reason to lie about their abilities.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, not everything she says can be taken at face value. For instance, she is a sith historian so she is an authority on the history of the sith and the valley of the dark lords. However, she is merely speculating on Tulak Hord's skill unless she is going based on a holocron or manuscripts or something. With the force, she seems to be the most knowledgeable force user of her time easily, and one of the most knowledgeable ever, so when she is discussing certain aspects of the force, I believe they can be taken at face value. Since she was also the master of Sion and Nihilus, she has no reason to lie about their abilities.

You're nitpicking. Traya's comments about Nihilus and Revan are to be accepted wholeheartedly yet her notions about the inferiority of the KotOR Sith aren't?

Originally posted by Gideon
You're nitpicking. Traya's comments about Nihilus and Revan are to be accepted wholeheartedly yet her notions about the inferiority of the KotOR Sith aren't?

I'm NOT nitpicking. It's not an all or nothing ordeal. We have to seriously consider what she says when she's an authority on it, while also taking other comments with a grain of salt.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm NOT nitpicking. It's not an all or nothing ordeal. We have to seriously consider what she says when she's an authority on it, while also taking other comments with a grain of salt.

She's not in a place to dictate the perceptions of Nihilus and his power, since she isn't as potent as he is. All she is doing is speculating.

Originally posted by Gideon
She's not in a place to dictate the perceptions of Nihilus and his power, since she isn't as potent as he is. All she is doing is speculating.

How so? She was his master, she was on Malachor V, and her knowledge of the force exceeds that of Nihilus. Are we to assume that when she describes Revan she's also speculating? When there is a master-apprentice bond, speculation is less likely.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How so? She was his master, she was on Malachor V, and her knowledge of the force exceeds that of Nihilus. Are we to assume that when she describes Revan she's also speculating? When there is a master-apprentice bond, speculation is less likely.

Knowledge is irrelevant. Power is relevant. She does not possess Nihilus's raw power, how can she dictate what and how he perceives, when the whole crux to the argument is raw power?

Originally posted by Gideon
Knowledge is irrelevant. Power is relevant. She does not possess Nihilus's raw power, how can she dictate what and how he perceives, when the whole crux to the argument is raw power?

Apparently she does a great job, seeing as how he's a wound in the force and judging by KOTOR 2, she understands the concept very well. Not to mention, even though she doesn't have that exact technique, she has something similar when she drains the jedi masters.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Apparently she does a great job, seeing as how he's a wound in the force and judging by KOTOR 2, she understands the concept very well. Not to mention, even though she doesn't have that exact technique, she has something similar when she drains the jedi masters.

Unlike her, you seem to have difficulty mastering this concept, DS. Traya's statement is entirely speculation born from the fact that she does not possess Nihilus's raw power and therefore can't speak to what he can and cannot perceive due to that raw power.

Originally posted by Gideon
Unlike her, you seem to have difficulty mastering this concept, DS. Traya's statement is entirely speculation born from the fact that she does not possess Nihilus's raw power and therefore can't speak to what he can and cannot perceive due to that raw power.


So you are saying to understand a power, you have to possess it?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So you are saying to understand a power, you have to possess it?

For your word to be taken as an infallible gospel? Yeah.

Originally posted by Gideon
Knowledge is irrelevant. Power is relevant. She does not possess Nihilus's raw power, how can she dictate what and how he perceives, when the whole crux to the argument is raw power? I can kind of see what you're saying, but does that mean that Yoda can't speak about Anakin, seeing as how he doesn't possess the raw power that Anakin does, even though he has more knowledge than Anakin?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I can kind of see what you're saying, but does that mean that Yoda can't speak about Anakin, seeing as how he doesn't possess the raw power that Anakin does, even though he has more knowledge than Anakin?

Two things.

a.) Exodus wanted to use Kreia's statement as an indication that LOLZ NIHILUS PWNS. DS seemingly has a similar agenda here, for whatever reason.

b.) Kreia's statements are speculation about how Nihilus perceives the universe based on his level of relative power.

Yoda's statements regarding Anakin aren't infallible nor do they speak to perceptions that Yoda cannot experience for himself.

Of course it's not a definitive indication of power, but her word should still be held in high regard. Its like Phil Jackson can play basketball nowhere near Kobe's level, but his knowledge of the sport (and Kobe) allows him to know what Kobe can do, and what he needs to do in certain situations.

wait a minute: you are overlooking something key... during the part of the game where Kreia is describing Nihilus, you can't believe anything she tells you. She is deceiving the Exile the entire time. She would say anything to get him to do EXACTLY what she wants him to do: such as take out Nihilus for her. If she tells the exile: "well, Nihilus will feel you coming on his ship, and just force drain you and your companions to death before you ever get there." She couldn't very well get him to take care of nihilus could she? If she instead says: "he won't sense you coming because of how powerful he is.... or w/e" then she might get the exile to do his bidding.
Traya is often quoted on here as a "historian" so her word is taken a bit too often. You forget that the only time we hear from Traya is a time in which she is a historian with an agenda. Just as every word from sidious was thought out while he was rising to power and seducing Vader, so should everything that Traya said be taken: with a grain of salt if it doesn't fit with other facts, and face it: her making that quote about nihilus's power doesn't fit at all with the relative ease with which he is disposed.

Look at it this way: Sidious was a historian, he was the leader of the Sith: but when he said the jedi betrayed the old republic, he lied. When he said that he could save Padme, He lied. (sound familiar, lying about a power level?) When he told Luke his father would never return, he was lying/mistaken. You can't take every statement traya makes and consider it infallible. She was full of important, stupid-sounding, open to a broad scope of interpretation analogies, i agree with gideon on that one.

Finally: no one can prove that if Nihilus has all this power that I deny he has anyway: but if he does, there is no way to prove his attacks will have any affect on luke. We know for a fact his telekinses will be of no use, unless it is more powerful than the black hole in the center of the galaxy... and i find that unlikely... At last notice, Luke can block a force drain, and quite honestly , has been able, at the time of LOTF, find ways to counter EVERY force attack against him. While han solo, who doesnt' have the force might fall prey to nihilus's force attacks, there is NOTHING supporting an opinion that luke could be touched by such an attack.

Originally posted by Gideon
Two things.

a.) Exodus wanted to use Kreia's statement as an indication that LOLZ NIHILUS PWNS. DS seemingly has a similar agenda here, for whatever reason.

b.) Kreia's statements are speculation about how Nihilus perceives the universe based on his level of relative power.

Yoda's statements regarding Anakin aren't infallible nor do they speak to perceptions that Yoda cannot experience for himself.

I have no idea what Exodus wrote nor do I care. I am simply stating that as his master and someone with extensive knowledge of the force, she understands the technique and its characteristics and is able to perform a smaller version of it. Escape seems to think that because Kreia isn't able to perform the technique, she's not able to understand it.

Ut oh, Darth Sexy and Gideon gonna debate AGAINST eachother? Ive not seen that before. You guys seem to share the majority of your opinions.
And luke takes this easily. I'm not a debator, i just have an opinion and wont really expand on what i know based on reading alot(about 40, a lot to go) of EU Star Wars books and playing both KOTORs.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I have no idea what Exodus wrote nor do I care. I am simply stating that as his master and someone with extensive knowledge of the force, she understands the technique and its characteristics and is able to perform a smaller version of it. Escape seems to think that because Kreia isn't able to perform the technique, she's not able to understand it.

Jesus Christ, DS! It's not a technique that we're speaking of! It's "power of magnitude"; Traya does not have it. She isn't a definitive source on his perceptions because she has never experienced how he perceives since she does not have his raw power. The ****ing end.