The Great Evil Beast runs the Gauntlet

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Astner
OK, as you'll notice I won't start of with fodder characters such as Batman to extend the gauntlet. Nor will I end it with something obvious such as TOAA.

1. Mxyzptlk (Hyperspace feats included, such as World's Funnest)
2. Michael and Lucifer
3. Living Tribunal
4. Spectre merged with the Source
5. Classic Beyonder without any self-imposed restrictions, full power.
6. Thanos with the Heart

Explanation: The majority consider Spectre Prime equal to the Living Tribunal, but there's also a few that consider him greater, so either (subjective view) Spectre is equal or greater.
Classic Beyonder is considered to be at the same level Thanos was when he aquired the Heart, but again, some consider Thanos to have been greater.

Mr Master
I don't know about the rest,
but no matter who or how powerful this thing is,
it's not going to pass classic Beyonder at full power.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't know about the rest,
but no matter who or how powerful this thing is,
it's not going to pass classic Beyonder. you don't know how powerful the GEB is, yet you can claim with certainty he can't beat classic Beyonder?! confused

Mr Master
Originally posted by Starscream M

you don't know how powerful the GEB is,
yet you can claim with certainty he can't beat classic Beyonder?!
Which is why I said, "no matter how powerful." smile

btw. I know it's supposed to be the Presence's polar opposite,
but that would make no difference anyway.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Mr Master
Which is why I said, "no matter how powerful." smile

btw. I know it's supposed to be the Presence's polar opposite,
but that would make no difference anyway. so you are basically saying Classic Beyonder is pretty much the most powerful being?

Mr Master
Originally posted by Starscream M

so you are basically saying Classic Beyonder is pretty much the most powerful being?
Not exactly,
I would put THOTI as an equal because it too was a Supreme power,
it essentially made Thanos the Supreme being of the Marvel Omniverse,
the Infinity being was also once the Supreme being, so that's another equal.

So, basically, only a Supreme being can stalemate Beyonder (unlimited version)
but, no one can defeat him,
just like no one can defeat THOTI or the Presence/GEB.

Supreme being vs Supreme being = eternal stalemate.


TOAA/Morrison avatar (and others the like) are above them all.
Because they actually create everything that takes place on panel,
just like a writer imagines a story which is then drawn by an artist.
(in fact, they are actually fictional representational avatars of the real world artists/writers)

That's the literal Marvel & DC depiction of the true "Gods" of each company.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Mr Master
Not exactly,
I would put THOTI as an equal because it too was a Supreme power,
it essentially made Thanos the Supreme being of the Marvel Omniverse,
the Infinity being was also once the Supreme being, so that's another equal.

So, basically, only a Supreme being can stalemate Beyonder (unlimited version)
but, no one can defeat him,
just like no one can defeat THOTI or the Presence/GEB.

Supreme being vs Supreme being = eternal stalemate. actually, TOAA could defeat Beyonder, quite easily...hence, if GEB is close to TOAA's power, then he too stands good chance of beating Beyonder

Knowsbleed33
He gets KO'ed at Classic Beyonder. If he manages to get past him Thanos with HoTU will bring him down.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Starscream M

actually, TOAA could defeat Beyonder, quite easily...hence,
if GEB is close to TOAA's power,
then he too stands good chance of beating Beyonder
Actually,
GEB/ Presence are just drawings on a piece of paper to TOAA and DC's counter-part of TOAA.

====================================


In fact for the record, that Morrison avatar is not the Presence either,
that Morrison avatar is exactly what Toaa/God from FF#511 represented:

Real world artists/writers.

The Presence is a drawing,
or idea on a piece of paper that was created by this type of Morrison avatar.

The Presence is an entity that's intergrated into the DC divine reality,
he has family, aspects of himself, and even a polar opposite.

Morrison did not identify with his creation as an equal, opposite or inferior existence,
but rather as what they really are,
just a drawing on a piece of paper.

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4964/am1zz4.th.jpg


.................................................................................


Just like Reed and the FF, Silver Surfer, Black Panther and even Galactus,
are just silly drawings on a piece of paper to the real OAA/God (writers/artists avatars)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6163/fantasticfour51119ze0.th.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1171/fantasticfour51118em9jtto2.th.jpg

.................................................................................


The Presence and THOTI are less than nothing to these true Gods of Marvel and DC.

The Presence and THOTI,
are the complete fictional representations of supreme beings,
withIN their respective realities. (DC and Marvel)

Morrison/Carlin and Kirbiesk/Lee type avatars are the creators of these drawings, ("supreme beings"wink
even though they themselves are being represented by a drawing as well.

.................................................................................


So bottom line:


The Presence = THOTI
(since both represent the Supreme Beings withIN their realities)

Morrison/Carlin/Kirbiesk/lee >>> Presence/HOTI
(since they literally represent the creators of everything that takes place on panel)
(including "supreme beings"wink that also appear on panel relating themselves with other drawings.

Starscream M
You are wrong Mr. Master

It may be true that the artists/writers are the most powerful beings...but the Presence/THOTI is not the next level of power....they are God/TOAA in DC/Marvel respectively

so hierchy is

writers/artists >>>>> God/TOAA >>> The Presence/THOTI >= Classic Beyonder

now, you stated that "no matter how powerful GEB is, he can't beat Beyonder"

I have shown that statement to be false

for if GEB is as powerful as God/TOAA, then he is more powerful than Beyonder and can beat him

kevdude
Wouldn't it be more fair to say THOTU = TOAA since that's what Thanos became right?

Morrison/Kirby = true gods of DC/Marvel outside then inside The Presence/TOAA within the reality's/comics. stick out tongue

Astner
Actually writers shouldn't be in a fictional hierarchy. However, a writer can add (draw) himself into the comic. That drawing is a fictional character, but that doesn't necessarely mean he's powerful. He's just as powerful as the actual writer allows him to be, just like any other fictional character.

Not so long ago there were a battle between Thor and Stan Lee in th "Character ownage thread" where they were pretty close in power.
There, the writer decided it to be that way. Morrison in the comic above might even be "weak"--it depends on what the writer wants.

However Shooter wanted Beyonder to be supreme.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Starscream M

You are wrong Mr. Master
Why, cause you say so? erm
Originally posted by Starscream M

It may be true that the artists/writers are the most powerful beings...
Right.
Originally posted by Starscream M

but the Presence/THOTI is not the next level of power....
they are God/TOAA in DC/Marvel respectively
Wrong!
Originally posted by Starscream M

so hierchy is

writers/artists >>>>> God/TOAA >>> The Presence/THOTI >= Classic Beyonder
Wrong again.

TOAA is a combination of the writers and artists of Marvel.

Morrison/Carlin type avatars are the counter-parts to TOAA.

That's a fact!


The Presence/GEB & THOTI (supreme powers of each company) are equal.

Classic Beyonder according to Jim Shooter:
(Jim was the writer/creator of Beyonder & Secret Wars & Editor in-Chief of Marvel)
was "God before genesis"
and his reality was like an Ocean to a drop of water,
when comparing the Beyond realm to the infinite Multiverse

Yea, even though that sounds like something much greater,
I prefer to keep the Beyonder just = to current "Supreme beings."

Originally posted by Starscream M

now, you stated that "no matter how powerful GEB is, he can't beat Beyonder"

I have shown that statement to be false
With unsupported empty statements
based on your own rendition of how the Marvel/DC cosmology works?

Yea sure.

But based on facts, that is ... on panel facts, corroborated by the Writer himself,
you have NO idea what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Starscream M

for if GEB is as powerful as God/TOAA,
then he is more powerful than Beyonder and can beat him
Last time:

The GEB is just a drawing on a piece of paper to TOAA.

If you can't accept that fact,
write Marvel a letter and complain. smile

Mr Master
Originally posted by kevdude

Wouldn't it be more fair to say THOTU = TOAA since that's what Thanos became right?
Nah.

Thanos became what TOAA drew on a piece of paper.
Originally posted by kevdude

Morrison/Kirby = true gods of DC/Marvel outside
then inside The Presence/TOAA within the reality's/comics.
Actually, TOAA is the old man from FF#511.

So I have to disagree with your conclusion.

Mr Master
I know that no matter what the Presence is based on (real world God or not)
it's still just a drawing on a piece of paper.

So to suggest that a drawing on a piece of paper is above it's real world creators,
is illogical.
(although they're both represented by artwork,
one artistically represents a fictional reality,
the other artistically represents fiction based on truth)

The real God of the bible appearing in a comic is ludicrous and impossible,
but artistic visuals,
of Morrison/Kirbiesk avatars representing the writers/artists of the industry withIN a comic,
is easily accomplished with a pencil and some ink.

Morrison/Carlin/kirbiesk/lee avatars are the true Gods of Marvel and DC,
there's no arguing this friends.

fangirl101
GEB clears. IT can stalemate a supreme being. No one on the list would win out in the end. Maybe Thanos with the heart could pull a stalemate. Maybe. I dont' consider him the supreme being either, but many do.

Mr Master
====================================

(an artist that toils with his drawings ... just like in the real world)

====================================


"Meeting the Maker!" (writers/artists of Marvel ... TOAA)


(excerpt from the FF Ultimate Guide)

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/594/gdka7uw0.th.jpg

This is an official Handbook Marvel comics source,
it's stating exactly what took place On Panel:

.................................................................................


++++ On Panel verification +++


1.

"The FF were amazed to find out,
he sketched out Reality in the same way as a comic-book artist:"

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6163/fantasticfour51119ze0.th.jpg




2.

"Redrawing Ben so that he once agan resembled the Thing:"

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/170/thingvf9.th.jpg




3.

"God then re-drew the FF's World, transporting them home:"

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9994/h1fs5.th.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6589/h2qy9.th.jpg


smile

====================================


More Proof!


====================================


(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook - FF - bio)

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/4678/ffheavenyx6mi1.th.jpg

... "Quest led them to the gates of Heaven itself ...
the CreatorS (artists/writers) allowed it,
even healing Reed's facial scars as a parting gift.



++++ On Panel verification +++


http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3893/h3ax3.th.jpg


FF# 511, is 100% Canon,

part of continuity and evidently the way God looks in Marvel..


yawn

Mr Master
I'm sure "God" can look like anything he chooses even in Marvel comics,
but,
"God" has only chosen to take the form of Human writers and artists
that work for Marvel in the real world.

Even using names in the literal sense:

====================================


Here's Roberto Sacasa (writer) appearing as what part of "God" is in Marvel.

(a writer ... and an artist as we saw in FF#511)

It's once again, fictional humanoid representations of real people.

I mean, even Joe Quesada (editor in-chief) is illustrated,
and depicted discussing the FF's future in their writing department:

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/8844/sb0di5sx1.th.jpg

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2968/sb1ax3tk4.th.jpg

.......................................................................................................

This is cool,

they convey the depiction as though the characters they give life to, are real:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9486/sb3iu2md2.th.jpg

.......................................................................................................


The writer imagines what will take place in the Marvelverse,

the artist then brings it to life on panel.

.......................................................................................................


This is a nice example of the "power," for lack of a better term, that TOAA has:

Sacasa decides to gives Reed the ability to "invent a tracking device that can scour the MultiverseS"

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3452/sb2ll11nk6.th.jpg

The Writer (TOAA) gave Reed Trans-Multiversal capabilities with a thought. smile


This isn't even "power" really being displayed by this "writer,"
it's inconsequential when categorizing it next to other stories/characters,
because they literally create everything that takes place on panel.

The writer/artist avatars are simply drawings in comics,
that represent the real writers/artists of the real world.

=======================================


PS. As we can all see, the top dog is the Editor in-Chief Joe Quesada,
but the Writer is the one that imagines what we read on panel,
and the artist is the one that gives that imagination life through illustrations.

Mr Master
Over at DC it's the same!

................................................................................


I also enjoyed Morrison's portrayal of a true comic book "God" in the Animal Man arc:

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4964/am1zz4.th.jpg

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/9585/morrisondy8.th.jpg

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/9864/morrison2us3.th.jpg

.................................................................................

It's right along the lines of FF#511, and other Marvel depictions,
but it's blatant, and more thorough in getting the idea across.

.................................................................................



------

"I'm the evil mastermind behind the scenes.
I'm the wicked puppeteer who pulls the strings and makes you dance..."

"I'm your writer.":

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/6792/am0lr3.th.jpg


======


"You'll be whatever you're written to be!":

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9792/am3hu8.th.jpg


======


And as I'm sure most could've guessed,
the 'supreme being' varies with each individual comic:

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/3595/am1jo1.th.jpg


======


credit to Galan on these scans:

Mr Master
TOAA/god depends on the writer/artist and above all editor in-chief.

During Beyonder's reign,
Beyonder was the representative avatar of the writer/editor in-chief Jim Shooter,
in fact, Beyonder, according to Shooter himself, was really above even his avatar,
senseless as that is, that's how far the exaggeration of his power became.

Again, that's why the forced retcon came into play.


So what does this lead to?


TOAA/god is the Supreme being now.

According to Jim Shooter the WRITER/EDITOR in-Chief of all Marvel,
Beyonder was a GOD unto himself, in his own Reality,
and the entire infinite Marvel reality was like a drop of water to his ocean of a reality.

When Beyonder was around, he was the "Supreme being"
that came from another universe where he was also the Supreme being,
yes, he came to the Marvel Universe, took over, and became Reality. (Supreme being)


Beyonder withIN the Marvel Reality:


http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8379/beyonderisrealitydw2.th.jpg

"The Mightiest beings are microbes to me"

"Reality isn't real to me! Eveything is what I say it is"

"My imagination and reality are virtually indistinguishable"

"All Existence, except for me, might as well be a figment of my imagination"




http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1592/b3rd6.th.jpg

"I who utterly dictate All Reality"




http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/7766/b4qh2.th.jpg

"As long as I conceive of things, they exist, in a fashion,
because my thoughts equal Reality"

Mr Master
...........................................................................................


The Beyonder was, what TOAA is now in a way.

Only TOAA was unheard of, because TOAA was basically Jim Shooter,
same guy who created the Beyonder/Secret Wars,
and was Editor in-Chief of Marvel at the time,
besides ALSO being the Writer of secret wars I-II.

And Jim Shooter placed himself BENEATH the Beyonder's power,

believe it or not, but read it for your self:


...........................................................................................


The Beyonder between 1984 and 1986,
was everything outside the Marvel Multiverse, (Infinite Beyond)
was GOD before Genesis, (a Supreme Being)
and in comparison with the entire Marvel Reality the Beyond Realm was like an Ocean,
while the entire Marvel Reality was like a drop of water.

Writer's own words! ^^^ yes

......................................................................................

Mr Master
......................................................................................


Jim Shooter - creator/writer of Secret Wars/Beyonder
(while he was Editor in chief of Marvel)

Get's interviewed ... about the Beyonder.

......................................................................................


Marvel Age is an official Marvel title, created to strictly discuss Marvel stories,
and other intricacies concerning Marvel comics.

......................................................................................


Jim Shooter himself describes Classic Beyonder to us:


Jim states:


1. Beyonder "is a Multi-verse."

2. Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

3. Beyonder's discovery of our Universe ... (Marvel Multiverse)

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3339/jim1wp8.th.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7402/jim2mj1.th.jpg

"We introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"


swank


This is why Beyonder had to be retconned, (de-powered)
simply too much grander and power.

...........................................................................................

Mr Master
...........................................................................................


MILLIONS of times more powerful than the Living Tribunal,
and the rest of Marvel combined:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/452729_mill.jpg

...........................................................................................


This is why!


....................................................................


The LT was afraid of the Beyonder, Desperate in FACT:

....................................................................


When Uatu gathered the Cosmic Hierarchy (the LT included)

the In-Betweener says about Mephisto,

"Surely this is his day of last resorts ... he is desperate ... AS ARE WE"

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2595/beyo1hr6.th.jpg

I believe "WE" included the LT yes (who is there)

................................................................................................


After Beyonder erased Death from the Multiverse,
the Hierarchy (including the LT) accepts their fate,

then the MM shows up and they all step aside: (as if salvation arrived)

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1442/26796258iu4.th.jpg

LOL!

................................................................................................


Who's the ONLY being to ever make the LT tremble in fear?

Beyonder, that's who.

The Living Tribunal and the hierarchy literally,
were quaking in their pants at the thought of what Beyonder would do,
if Eternity failed,
when Eternity actually mustered some courage to attempt an attack:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8900/beto2za1.th.jpg

"The Mighty of the MULTIVERSE (the LT included) TREMBLE"

................................................................................................

fangirl101
Originally posted by Mr Master
TOAA/god depends on the writer/artist and above all editor in-chief.

During Beyonder's reign,
Beyonder was the representative avatar of the writer/editor in-chief Jim Shooter,
in fact, Beyonder, according to Shooter himself, was really above even his avatar,
senseless as that is, that's how far the exaggeration of his power became.

Again, that's why the forced retcon came into play.


So what does this lead to?


TOAA/god is the Supreme being now.

According to Jim Shooter the WRITER/EDITOR in-Chief of all Marvel,
Beyonder was a GOD unto himself, in his own Reality,
and the entire infinite Marvel reality was like a drop of water to his ocean of a reality.

When Beyonder was around, he was the "Supreme being"
that came from another universe where he was also the Supreme being,
yes, he came to the Marvel Universe, took over, and became Reality. (Supreme being)


Beyonder withIN the Marvel Reality:


http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8379/beyonderisrealitydw2.th.jpg

"The Mightiest beings are microbes to me"

"Reality isn't real to me! Eveything is what I say it is"

"My imagination and reality are virtually indistinguishable"

"All Existence, except for me, might as well be a figment of my imagination"




http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1592/b3rd6.th.jpg

"I who utterly dictate All Reality"




http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/7766/b4qh2.th.jpg

"As long as I conceive of things, they exist, in a fashion,
because my thoughts equal Reality"

So you assert that the supreme being of Marvel was weaker than the beyonder since he was so easily able to take over his reality? come now. Marvel has the same supreme being then as now. Care to explain how the beyonder could do such a thing? Ah the repetiveness of it all.

Mr Master
................................................................................................


Beyonder's top feat


Creating from nothingness ... the Beyond Realm
(a Reality septillions of times more infinite, than the infinite prime Multiverse)

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/197/bekw8.th.jpg

"A Universe to which OUR OWN is as a droplet of Water to the Ocean"



=== note ===

There are roughly around 20-25 septillion drops of Water in the Ocean,
according to the Mathematical Biosciences Intitute in 2005
and the Scripps Institution of Oceanography.

................................................................................................


"OUR OWN" Universe ... is the infinite prime Multiverse:


...................................................................................

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7222/beyonderexploresthemulitverseoy9.th.jpg

"Odd thing He had noticed about our Universe"

"Namely that it is Many-Layered

composed of a seemingly Endless Number of Dimensions,

indeed, it is a MULTIVERSE"

...................................................................................


And now .. On Panel!


Beyonder's top feat


Creating from nothingness ... the Beyond Realm
(a Reality quintillions of times more infinite, than the infinite prime Multiverse)

........................................................................................


Beyonder CREATING/BECOMING the INFINITE Beyond:


http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/8944/buni2ke0.th.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/9502/buni3oe1so5.th.jpg

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/6076/buni4xn9.th.jpg

"Masses form in the Void, Stars, Suns, and Planets ... LIFE Arises"

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4980/b3oz3.th.jpg

"Meeting NO resistance in the INFINITE BEYOND"

........................................................................................

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5558/buni5it5.th.jpg

"Evolves and Flourishes Within the New Universe,
BEGAT (brought into existence) by Beyonder's Power"

"Mortal Beings giving meaning to the INFINITY in which they dwell"

........................................................................................

swank

Btw. This infinity is actually an uberdiculous Multiverse:

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4372/beyonderismultikh8.th.jpg

"Beyonder, the entity that embodied all the substance of Another Multiverse"

........................................................................................


Just like Writer/Editor in-Chief, Jim Shooter stated in his interview. smile

kevdude
Thanos became supreme beyond The Living Tribunal and Eternity the only 1 beyond them is TOAA within the comics. Do you know which writer made The Presence?? Morrison maybe? Thanos became TOAA because he was tricked into it. Morrison/Kirby all the way to the bank by your hierarchy it would seem smile

Mr Master
Originally posted by kevdude

Thanos became supreme beyond The Living Tribunal and Eternity the only 1 beyond them is TOAA within the comics.

Thanos became TOAA because he was tricked into it.
Ture that.

But I don't think it matters
why Thanos became the almighty supreme being of the Marvel Omniverse,
the fact is, he did become such.

Originally posted by kevdude

Do you know which writer made The Presence?? Morrison maybe?
Every writer and artist in DC represents the true "Creators" of reality on panel,
just like in Marvel.

Originally posted by kevdude

Morrison/Kirby all the way to the bank by your hierarchy it would seem smile
For sure. thumb up

Starscream M
God is not supposed to be a transient being, nor mortal...writers and artists are

Mr Master
Originally posted by fangirl101

So you assert that the supreme being of Marvel was weaker than the beyonder since he was so easily able to take over his reality? come now.
The Beyonder was created by TOAA of then (Jim Shooter/Al Milgrom)
to be infinitely beyond anything in Marvel.

That is all.
Originally posted by fangirl101

Marvel has the same supreme being then as now.
Care to explain how the beyonder could do such a thing?
Simple, TOAA, which is inconsequential to events that take place on panel,
created him to be that way.

Jim Shooter created Beyonder to be "God before genesis"

And that's what it is, and there's nothing any of us can do to dispute that.
Originally posted by fangirl101

Ah the repetiveness of it all.
If you have to end your posts with a pointless snide remark,
perhaps you shouldn't participate.

In case you haven't noticed,
our verbal wars don't exist anymore, and never shall again.
Unnecessary sarcasm and condescending wannabee wit will be ignored,
followed by the poster him/herself being ignored as well.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Starscream M

God is not supposed to be a transient being, nor mortal...writers and artists are
Yea well, we're talking withIN comics, not in real life.

The only connection real life has to comics,
is in the form of fictional representations (avatars) of real human beings.

And even then, it isn't real life,
but a fictional depiction through artistic illustrations of real life.

lannfear
Classic beyonder no longer exists....he was considered supreme at a particular point in time based on information available at that time..ie interviews/panel feats etc etc....all of which was deemed inaccurate,( the new heads of marvel hated the classic beyonder ..whatever).. he was reworked as an incomplete cosmic cube , i think.....that is no different to real world situations that change as more knowledge becomes available...classic....the sun revolves around the earth and the earth was flat...these were considered fact at one point..not any more.....

Astner
Originally posted by Starscream M
God is not supposed to be...
Fixed it for you.

occultdestroyer
Classic Beyonder is NOT supreme.

He may be a million times more powerful than the Marvel multiverse, but he was defeated by Molecule Man? Oh come on.

If it was GEB, he'd just absorb MM in complete darkness for all eternity.

Astner
He was under restrictions when defeated, he allowed it, by his own words.
He was supreme--as there was no one above him.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by lannfear
Classic beyonder no longer exists....he was considered supreme at a particular point in time based on information available at that time..ie interviews/panel feats etc etc....all of which was deemed inaccurate,( the new heads of marvel hated the classic beyonder ..whatever).. he was reworked as an incomplete cosmic cube , i think.....that is no different to real world situations that change as more knowledge becomes available...classic....the sun revolves around the earth and the earth was flat...these were considered fact at one point..not any more..... That's why when we refer to Beyonder's feats before the retcon, he is called Pre Retcon Beyonder. smile

He stops GEB, at least stalemates him.

fangirl101
Originally posted by Astner
He was under restrictions when defeated, he allowed it, by his own words.
He was supreme--as there was no one above him.

There was someone above him. TOAA. then and now. Can the Classic Beyonder Beat The Kirby Avatar? Nope. Then he's not Supreme. He can't even stalemate him.

Mr Master
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

Classic Beyonder is NOT supreme.

He may be a million times more powerful than the Marvel multiverse,
but he was defeated by Molecule Man? Oh come on.
laughing ... I always enjoy ignorant statements made with confidence.
Originally posted by Astner

He was under restrictions when defeated, he allowed it, by his own words.
He was supreme--as there was no one above him.
thumb up ... Well, at-least the ignorance isn't everywhere.
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx

That's why when we refer to Beyonder's feats before the retcon,
he is called Pre Retcon Beyonder.

He stops GEB, at least stalemates him.
yes
Originally posted by fangirl101

There was someone above him. TOAA. then and now.
Can the Classic Beyonder Beat The Kirby Avatar? Nope.
Then he's not Supreme. He can't even stalemate him.
Kirby avatar?

TOAA wasn't even official back then,
if there was an un-official OAA back then,
then it was Jim Shooter/Al Milgrom (writer/artist) of the Secret Wars I-II series.

And guess what, well, you already know,
Jim created Beyonder to be a Supreme being,
in fact, to be "God before genesis"
and you know this,
I KNOW you know this, cause I've posted it so many times even I tire of it,
but darn, that intransigence is just mind boggling, seriously no offense, but jeesh!

btw. Jim was also the Editor in-Chief of Marvel back then,
which gave him even more power to do whatever the heck he wanted,
and he did,
he created a character so exaggerated, (Beyonder)
and gave another character so much power (Molecule Man)
that Marvel had to de-power them once Shooter left.

fangirl101
Originally posted by Mr Master
laughing ... I always enjoy ignorant statements made with confidence.

thumb up ... Well, at-least the ignorance isn't everywhere.

yes

Kirby avatar?

TOAA wasn't even official back then,
if there was an un-official OAA back then,
then it was Jim Shooter/Al Milgrom (writer/artist) of the Secret Wars I-II series.

And guess what, well, you already know,
Jim created Beyonder to be a Supreme being,
in fact, to be "God before genesis"
and you know this,
I KNOW you know this, cause I've posted it so many times even I tire of it,
but darn, that intransigence is just mind boggling, seriously no offense, but jeesh!

Except we know that the beyonder wasn't the supreme being. He wasn't. He didn't create the marvel multiverse that he was so enthralled with. he quite a dummy as well. He was NOT a supreme being. And he was said to BASICALLY be God. And yet, he was a puppet of The One above all.

Mr Master
Originally posted by fangirl101

Except we know that the beyonder wasn't the supreme being. He wasn't. He didn't create the marvel multiverse that he was so enthralled with. he quite a dummy as well. He was NOT a supreme being. And he was said to BASICALLY be God. And yet, he was a puppet of The One above all.
Enjoy your day.

I told ya I wouldn't entertain circles of intransigence anymore.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by fangirl101
Except we know that the beyonder wasn't the supreme being. He wasn't. He didn't create the marvel multiverse that he was so enthralled with. he quite a dummy as well. He was NOT a supreme being. And he was said to BASICALLY be God. And yet, he was a puppet of The One above all. if you read the books you would know the context of beyonder's might. he was an outsider and able to do as he pleased. owen reese possessed a portion of the power of the cube being due to the accident so he was the only one able to step to him.

fangirl101
Originally posted by psycho gundam
if you read the books you would know the context of beyonder's might. he was an outsider and able to do as he pleased.

I had them when they FIRST came out. He was an OUTSIDER WHO DID NOT CREATE THE MARVEL U. Thus he couldn't be the supreme being as we know marvel has a creator. A supreme being. him being mentioned back then or now is of no consequence.

Mr Master
Originally posted by psycho gundam

if you read the books you would know the context of beyonder's might.
he was an outsider and able to do as he pleased.
thumb up True that, ... but don't waste your time friend.

Nothing is penetrating that circle.

lannfear
So in comic terms....is there a being that is credited with the ultimate creation of all that there is,was or will be marvel?...that would pretty much be the supreme entity.... eek!

fangirl101
Originally posted by lannfear
So in comic terms....is there a being that is credited with the ultimate creation of all that there is,was or will be marvel?...that would pretty much be the supreme entity.... eek!

You hit the nail right on the head. What I've been trying to point out forever. The beyonder is NOT this being. never was.

Mr Master
Originally posted by lannfear

So in comic terms....
is there a being that is credited with the ultimate creation of all that there is,
was or will be marvel?...
that would pretty much be the supreme entity....
WithIN comics, Marvel for sure and in DC evidently as well,
there is the Creators of comics (basically the writers/artists of the real world)
these real world writers/artists are represented by fictional illustrated avatars on panel.

Even though I'm calling their creations comics, which they are literally,
withIN said comics this creation (comics actually)
is in fact the Reality where every story belonging to said comic takes place,
in other words,
to us, it's a comic, which it is,
but to the drawings withIN the comic, it's their Reality/Omniverse.

This does not literally apply to the representational avatars,
because the representational avatars know it's a comic they have created,
where drawings are made out to be real, when in truth of course they're not.

So in a way,
even the representational avatars
fictionalizes him/herself (meh, even they're drawings after all)
because they make it as though what they create (stories withIN comics) are real,
while simultaneously acknowledging they're just drawings on a piece of paper
who do and say what they want them to do and say.

So Marvel and DC has it set as,
these representational avatars
are actually the ones that are dictating and manipulating everything that takes place on panel,
as it should be,
they dictate and manipulate everything on a piece of paper with words.

These drawings on a piece of paper given life on panel,
includes THOTI/LT whoever and also the Presence/GEB and whoever.

So,
withIN the fictional Reality imagined and drawn by the representational avatars:

THOTI is/was the most powerful source of power in current Marvel continuity.

The Presence/GEB is the most powerful source of power in current DC continuity.


So, that's about it. smile


So to answer your question:

(I'll specify Marvel's history only ... it's not a chronological history btw.)

The Creators (I just explained who they were)
had the Infinity being create the Marvel Universe (we learned this in 1991)
then Sise-Neg re-created the Marvel Universe (took place in 1972)
then Genis/Entropy re-created the Marvel Universe (took place in 2002)
then Thanos/THOTI re-created the Marvel Universe (took place in 2003)
then the Alien Entity re-created the Marvel universe (took place in 2006)

These re-creation were committed from the Void (nothingness before time)

HOM Wanda re-created the Marvel Universe in 2005, but not from the Void,
she simply let out a thought, and bam, everything was re-configured,
then she put it all back with another thought, minus the Mutant gene across all Timelines.

Mr Master
As for classic Beyonder,
Beyonder was not created by the Infinity being (originator of all Marvel)
and like wise Beyonder did not create the Infinity being.

The Beyonder was in a separate Multiverse,
completely disconnected from everything taking place in the Marvel Universe,
where he was the embodiment of everything in it.

In fact,
Beyonder was his own Supreme being,
and had no relation to anything in the Marvel Universe.

When Beyonder (from his Ocean of a Multiverse)
discovered the infinite Marvelverse (which was a drop of water in comparison)
and which was also located outside of his reality,
he decided to enter it.

Yes it was another Supreme being's creation, the Infinity being's in fact,
and like Shooter said,
this other creation (infinite Marvelverse) was a drop of water to his Multiverse. smile

So yea, I agree, another Supreme being created the drop of water,
Beyonder from his Ocean then entered the drop of water,
and took over, made the most powerful abstracts tremble in fear,
and finally became Reality itself with absolute control over every iota in the Marvelverse.

Juntai
The drop in an ocean is just hyperbole MrMaster, it's one of the most famous idioms there is, alongside other stuff like 'kick the bucket'. It's not literal, just means Beyonder's power and perception of reality, was vast by comparison.

However, we've seen the fact that the DC universe looks like a bag of marbles to the New Gods as well. Granted, they aren't as powerful as Beyonder, but their perception of reality, and DCU's size compared to their dimensions' size is incredible.

The origin is from Charles Dickens;
In 'A Christmas Carol'. In the first conversation between Scrooge and the ghost of his deceased partner, Marley, the ghost says: 'The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business.'

And perhaps Dicken's inspiration goes back to the bible, where they used a metaphor involving 'a drop in a bucket'.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Juntai

The drop in an ocean is just hyperbole MrMaster, it's one of the most famous idioms there is, alongside other stuff like 'kick the bucket'. It's not literal, just means Beyonder's power and perception of reality, was vast by comparison.
If you have proof that it's hyperbole, by all means post it good friend.
(analogies and unrelated comparisons won't do, info must come from Marvel)

I have proof that Beyonder created said Reality,
so without a doubt, it was not hyperbole,
just like it wasn't hyperbole when Shooter on panel stated:
"Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than all of Marvel combined."
Originally posted by Juntai

However, we've seen the fact that the DC universe looks like a bag of marbles to the New Gods as well. Granted, they aren't as powerful as Beyonder, but their perception of reality, and DCU's size compared to their dimensions' size is incredible.
Wonderful, but this is inconsequential to Marvel and the Beyonder good friend.
Originally posted by Juntai

The origin is from Charles Dickens;
In 'A Christmas Carol'. In the first conversation between Scrooge and the ghost of his deceased partner, Marley, the ghost says: 'The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business.'

And perhaps Dicken's inspiration goes back to the bible, where they used a metaphor involving 'a drop in a bucket'.
I have no idea what this has to do with Beyonder true debater.

Juntai

Mr Master

Juntai
Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm still not seeing anything proven coming from Marvel. sad

This is all opinion contradicting what Shooter stated on every first page of Secret Wars II.


I guess you feel this is hyperbole too then:


Jim states:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7402/jim2mj1.th.jpg

Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

Beyonder's discovery of our Universe ... (Marvel Multiverse)

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "


"We introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered" I'm not trying to take anything away from the character, in fact, I agree his power and his view of reality probably was akin to that, I even gave an example of others with similar perceptions ... however the 'drop of water', is a clear example of hyperbole and an idiom and a metaphor, in language context.

It's no different than a moment ago when I compared the universe to a bag of marbles compared to the new gods perceptions.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Juntai

I'm not trying to take anything away from the character, in fact, I agree his power and his view of reality probably was akin to that, I even gave an example of others with similar perceptions ... however the 'drop of water', is a clear example of hyperbole and an idiom and a metaphor, in language context.

It's no different than a moment ago when I compared the universe to a bag of marbles compared to the new gods perceptions.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree that it's hyperbole,
even if it's supposedly a past idiom.

Shooter stated that when Beyonder discovered the Marvel Universe,
it was like that scientist looking through his micro-scope
and discovering paramecium swimming in a drop of water.

No idiom there, just straight up talk.

The paramecium is the Earth,
the Marvel reality is the drop of water.

Again, I see what you're saying, (and you may be right concerning the idiom itself)
but not concerning what Shooter meant in Beyonder's case,
so I have to go with Jim Shooter's account about his own creation,
before I even dream of considering outside opinions.

As you just witnessed,
Shooter didn't use any idiom in his interview,
he spoke frankly,
and basically said the same thing the "idiom" was trying to get across.

This is why I know he meant it literally.

lannfear
Whose to say that the Beyonders own home universe/multiverse etc etc is not just a drop in the ocean of another entity.....how can any character be credited with being supreme..when they need to experiment to understand concepts , are suprised in situations etc etc....doesn't sound all powerful and all knowing to me....it is intersting though to think about...makes my head hurt..
stick out tongue

Juntai
Originally posted by Mr Master
I see what you're saying, but I disagree that it's hyperbole,
even if it's supposedly a past idiom.

Shooter stated that when Beyonder discovered the Marvel Universe,
it was like that scientist looking through his micro-scope
and discovering paramecium swimming in a drop of water.

No idiom there, just straight up talk.

The paramecium is the Earth,
the Marvel reality is the drop of water.

Again, I see what you're saying, (and you may be right concerning the idiom itself)
but not concerning what Shooter meant in Beyonder's case,
so I have to go with Jim Shooter's account about his own creation,
before I even dream of considering outside opinions.

As you just witnessed,
Shooter didn't use any idiom in his interview,
he spoke frankly,
and basically said the same thing the "idiom" was trying to get across.

This is why I know he meant it literally. Like I said, I'm not trying to hold anything against the character, he's proven his piece time and again. However the statement was an idiom/metaphor/hyperbole.


And Jim Shooters statement there is also a metaphor, clearly supported by the comparison "Like", though both certainly draw us contrast comparisons of exactly what they meant, the words are what they are, defined by the language.

Then again a lot of literature is written in hyperbole.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Mr Master
laughing ... I always enjoy ignorant statements made with confidence.



Well, he did beat Beyonder... kinda.
But nevermind. Beyonder was NEVER supreme anyhow.

Well, he was pre-Genesis. After Genesis, TOAA IS supreme.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Juntai
Like I said, I'm not trying to hold anything against the character, he's proven his piece time and again. However the statement was an idiom/metaphor/hyperbole.


And Jim Shooters statement there is also a metaphor, clearly supported by the comparison "Like", though both certainly draw us contrast comparisons of exactly what they meant, the words are what they are, defined by the language.

Then again a lot of literature is written in hyperbole.
Originally posted by Mr Master

I see what you're saying, but I disagree that it's hyperbole,
even if it's supposedly a past idiom.

Shooter stated that when Beyonder discovered the Marvel Universe,
it was like that scientist looking through his micro-scope
and discovering paramecium swimming in a drop of water.

No idiom there, just straight up talk.

The paramecium is the Earth,
the Marvel reality is the drop of water.

Again, I see what you're saying, (and you may be right concerning the idiom itself)
but not concerning what Shooter meant in Beyonder's case,
so I have to go with Jim Shooter's account about his own creation,
before I even dream of considering outside opinions.

As you just witnessed,
Shooter didn't use any idiom in his interview,
he spoke frankly,
and basically said the same thing the "idiom" was trying to get across.

This is why I know he meant it literally.

Mr Master
Originally posted by lannfear

Whose to say that the Beyonders own home universe/multiverse etc etc
is not just a drop in the ocean of another entity.....
Let me know when Marvel let's that be known.

Until then, let's stick to on panel evidence corroborated in official Marvel Handbooks,
and further confirmed by the writer/editor in-chief himself.
Originally posted by lannfear

how can any character be credited with being supreme..when they need to experiment to understand concepts , are suprised in situations etc etc....doesn't sound all powerful and all knowing to me....
How was Shooter supposed to make a 9 issue story,
that tied into over 40 other Marvel titles, without limiting the Beyonder?

He would not be able,
this is why He had Beyonder limiting himself through out the entire series.

You would know that if you read a single issue of the saga.


But here, I'll make it easy for ya. smile


http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/1025/beyonderimposeslimitations3gg5.th.jpg

"Something had gone wrong with my powers?
NO!
But I'm limiting them.
Trying to keep them in scale with your fascinating World"


..................................................................................


http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/5818/blimtsyq8.th.jpg

"He could erase the Universe with a thought,
and yet he limits himself"


..................................................................................


http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/6775/beyonderimposinglimitskq0.th.jpg

"I could simply will your cooperation,
but I'm trying to get by using less power,
I think it might be more satisfying"


..................................................................................


http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/579/beyonderimposeslimits4vn4.th.jpg

"If I'd never limited my powers,
I'd never have guessed how difficult something primitive like combat can be"




=========================================


Beyonder did this,
cause he wanted to be part of this Reality (Marvelverse) that contained microbes,
those microbes are everything and anything in the Marvelverse.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4448/img011mq3.th.jpg

"He could have done it all instantly, so Omnipotent is he,
but he senses that his new neighbors are the type who take life at a slow pace,
so he takes his time,
he intends to be here for a long while,
and he wants to fit in."


=========================================

This is why I encourage cats to read comics before debating. thumb up

Juntai
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up

fangirl101
His GODLIKE Omnipotence. On panel by the writer. He was GOD LIKE. Hmm. There have been many characters called Omnipotent.

quanchi112
Originally posted by fangirl101
His GODLIKE Omnipotence. On panel by the writer. He was GOD LIKE. Hmm. There have been many characters called Omnipotent. He kinda proved it when he lowered himself and destroyed the Celestials. Lt and the rest were afraid of him and that speaks volumes.

He wasnt some guy who claims omnipotence and then gets beat by a top tier. Huge difference there. he actually has feats that sa wait a minute he was freaking powerful. Name me 2 beings with on panel feats that surpass the preretcon beyonder if you would please.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by quanchi112
Name me 2 beings with on panel feats that surpass the preretcon beyonder if you would please.

Yahweh and Alien Entity. Not sure w/ Alien Entity though.

fangirl101
Originally posted by quanchi112
He kinda proved it when he lowered himself and destroyed the Celestials. Lt and the rest were afraid of him and that speaks volumes.

He wasnt some guy who claims omnipotence and then gets beat by a top tier. Huge difference there. he actually has feats that sa wait a minute he was freaking powerful. Name me 2 beings with on panel feats that surpass the preretcon beyonder if you would please.
What the hell are you talking about. the panel says he was GODLIKE. Not GOD.

Mr. mxy has better on panel feats. He destroyed everything. Stood up to everything and bfr'd it. Power has pwned the Spectre. He Recreated everything. Broke the 4th wall under his own power.

The LT has better feats. Held Megaverses in his hand. Shaped them.

Thanos with the heart had better feats. He actually defeated The LT on panel. Destroyed reality and remade it.

Mr Master
Originally posted by quanchi112

He kinda proved it when he lowered himself and destroyed the Celestials. Lt and the rest were afraid of him and that speaks volumes.

He wasnt some guy who claims omnipotence and then gets beat by a top tier.

Huge difference there.

he actually has feats that sa wait a minute he was freaking powerful.
thumb up

Mr Master
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

Yahweh and Alien Entity. Not sure w/ Alien Entity though.
Yahweh has nothing to do with Marvel.

Alien Entity? ... or any other Marvel character?

no

Mr Master
Originally posted by fangirl101

What the hell are you talking about. the panel says he was GODLIKE. Not GOD.
laughing

Let's ignore everything and stick to a nip pick that doesn't even prove your point.
Originally posted by fangirl101

Mr. mxy has better on panel feats. He destroyed everything.
Beyonder created a reality so much more infinite than everything,
that it's literally ridiculous.
Originally posted by fangirl101

Stood up to everything and bfr'd it.
Beyonder stood up to everything,
but everything was to afraid to do anything.

Except for the Owen and the heroes who all got owned lovely.
Originally posted by fangirl101

Power has pwned the Spectre.
Beyonder made the LT tremble in fear.
Originally posted by fangirl101

He Recreated everything.
If Beyonder didn't re-create the drop of water the infinite Marvelverse was.

Beyonder created from nothingness a the ocean that was parallel to the drop of water.
Originally posted by fangirl101

Broke the 4th wall under his own power.
So did She-Hulk across 60 issues.

And it's officially canon. laughing out loud

Please.
Originally posted by fangirl101

The LT has better feats. Held Megaverses in his hand. Shaped them.

Thanos with the heart had better feats.
He actually defeated The LT on panel. Destroyed reality and remade it.
hysterical

Thanos/THOTI became the current Supreme being.

By default no matter how grand Beyonder was,
they stalemate.

Next.

lannfear
just a few points...am not a cat ...sorry.... no
thanks for making it easy for me...us aussies can be slow big grin
and i did read secret war 1 and 2 ..a long time ago..still have nightmares...thought it was biggest piece of crap...but each to his/her own.... big grin

carnage52
Originally posted by Astner
OK, as you'll notice I won't start of with fodder characters such as Batman to extend the gauntlet. Nor will I end it with something obvious such as TOAA.

1. Mxyzptlk (Hyperspace feats included, such as World's Funnest)
2. Michael and Lucifer
3. Living Tribunal
4. Spectre merged with the Source
5. Classic Beyonder without any self-imposed restrictions, full power.
6. Thanos with the Heart

Explanation: The majority consider Spectre Prime equal to the Living Tribunal, but there's also a few that consider him greater, so either (subjective view) Spectre is equal or greater.
Classic Beyonder is considered to be at the same level Thanos was when he aquired the Heart, but again, some consider Thanos to have been greater. batgod is never fodder n00b.

quanchi112
Originally posted by fangirl101
What the hell are you talking about. the panel says he was GODLIKE. Not GOD.

Mr. mxy has better on panel feats. He destroyed everything. Stood up to everything and bfr'd it. Power has pwned the Spectre. He Recreated everything. Broke the 4th wall under his own power.

The LT has better feats. Held Megaverses in his hand. Shaped them.

Thanos with the heart had better feats. He actually defeated The LT on panel. Destroyed reality and remade it. No he doesnt have better feats. For one the Beyonder weakened himself before he went around dominating everyone.

For two Beyonder has never been oneshotted before either.

Beyonder was a million times more powerful than the Lt and in a story concerning the two he easily eclipsed him and and other marvel entity.

Dark-Jaxx
While weakened I might add.

Mxy? You mean the PC Kryptonian punching bag? Lolz.

occultdestroyer
TGEB w/ IG >= PR Beyonder

fangirl101
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
While weakened I might add.

Mxy? You mean the PC Kryptonian punching bag? Lolz.

Correction, PC Kryptonians were very weak to magic. If you are refering to the amped Superman Prime, he is IMMUNE to magic.

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