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Wolverine gets stripped of his adamantuim and his HF. He doesn't have time to adjust, how well does he do? None of his opponents have any weapons except Shingen.

1. Bullseye
2. Punisher
3. Shang Chi
4. Iron Fist (without chi)
5. Elecktra
6. Daredevil
7. Captain America
8. Shingen with sword

why the hell is punisher second?

also why the hell is elektra 5?

Stops at one.

Flame on!






-i jest-

Lecky pwns him

i think he may clear it.
iron fist may give him a problem though...

Man I better not say nothing.......

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wolverine gets stripped of his adamantuim and his HF. He doesn't have time to adjust, how well does he do? None of his opponents have any weapons except Shingen.
wait you're taking away his adamantium AND HF? what's left...just a hairy little runt.

he dies at 1.

Lulz.

Originally posted by Starscream M
wait you're taking away his adamantium AND HF? what's left...just a hairy little runt.

he dies at 1.

Thats going too far but I think he could stop at 2 ..... shifty

Hes defintely not getting past Daredevil.....

well that did not take long for masteridiot to make an ignorant responses.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
well that did not take long for masteridiot to make an ignorant responses. oh look who it is...thimble, haven't seen you on in awhile. still the logan fanboy as ever I see. Without hf and adamantium, logan's toast...Phantomzone made a spite thread against logan.

Lol masterbruces your just as much an ignorant moron as ever. He could very well clear this thread.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Lol masterbruces your just as much an ignorant moron as ever. He could very well clear this thread.

lmfao

............whats so funny? did you forgett he still has his claws?

Originally posted by Starscream M
wait you're taking away his adamantium AND HF? what's left...just a hairy little runt.


Originally posted by Battlehammer
Lol masterbruces your just as much an ignorant moron as ever. He could very well clear this thread.

This is just hilarious.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
............whats so funny? did you forgett he still has his claws?

No he doesn't I should have made that clearer.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No he doesn't I should have made that clearer. ohmigod...so this is a definite spite thread

I was under the assumption that he DID have his claws

yep, he definitely stops at 1

Originally posted by Starscream M
ohmigod...so this is a definite spite thread

I was under the assumption that he DID have his claws

yep, he definitely stops at 1

Bullseye doesn't have any weapons......

Is this a gauntlet or does is he at %100 at each fight?

If he is at 100% for each match -

1. Bullseye - Wolverine wins
2. Punisher - Wolverine wins
3. Shang Chi - (With out Chi) Wolverine wins / (With Chi) Shang wins
4. Iron Fist (without chi) - Wolverine wins
5. Elecktra - Elecktra wins
6. Daredevil - Wolverine wins
7. Captain America - Cap gets the slight majority
8. Shingen with sword - Shingen wins

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Captain America - Cap gets the slight majority


it's official...you're a joke. you think that logan without adamantium, claws, or HF can beat Captain America, when he barely wins with all those extreme advantages.

stops at 8

Originally posted by Starscream M
it's official...you're a joke. you think that logan without adamantium, claws, or HF can beat Captain America, when he barely wins with all those extreme advantages.

With his healing factor Logan rails him for 10/10 - EASILY.

Physically, they are virtually mirror images of each other.
Skillwise, they are virtually mirror images of each other - and any evidence supporting one of them being Superior leans towards Wolverine.

A powerless Logan vs. a shield-less Captain America would be a clean split, if Wolverine was give a weak or two to adjust to his current conditions. Thrown straight into the fray with out time to adjust Captain America takes the majority; but Wolverine isn't exactly out of practice - he trains more than almost anyone else - and for the vast majority of his career (as a soldier, as a spy, as a black-opts spook) he didn't rely on his healing factor like he does now or his claws. Comic time wise how long as he been a member of the X-Men? 10-15 years? I don't think that is nearly long enough for him to have forgotten how he used to fight for the other 80+ years... but apparently you do.

Wolverine is not nearly as effective with fists as Cap America is. So please don't make such a ridiculous assertion. Cap without his shield is still a great fighter, as he pretty much fights with his fists and kicks anyways, whereas Logan is heavily neutered without his claws.

Originally posted by Starscream M
Wolverine is not nearly as effective with fists as Cap America is.

Based on what exactly?

Wolverine went into clawless melee combat with Domina (who owned the entire group of x-men) and owned her - she couldn't even hit him.

Originally posted by Starscream M
So please don't make such a ridiculous assertion. Cap without his shield is still a great fighter, as he pretty much fights with his fists and kicks anyways, whereas Logan is heavily neutered without his claws

Wolverine without his claws is a great fighter, arguing otherwise is insanity. Did you know he rarely even used his claws prior to Weapon X? For most of his career (much longer than Caps) he relied on conventional weaponry - guns, knifes and his fists - the reliance on his claws is a relatively new development in Wolverine's long history. When Cap first met Wolverine, he wasn't even using his claws and he still saved Cap's ass.

You are seriously selling Wolverine short.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Wolverine without his claws is a great fighter, arguing otherwise is insanity. Did you know he rarely even used his claws prior to Weapon X? For most of his career (much longer than Caps) he relied on conventional weaponry - guns, knifes and his fists - the reliance on his claws is a relatively new development in Wolverine's long history. When Cap first met Wolverine, he wasn't even using his claws and he still saved Cap's ass.

so what if he didn't use claws prior to weapon X? he didnt fight anyone impressive besides nameless nazis. His impressive showings all came after his claws became his clutch, not before.

Originally posted by Starscream M
Wolverine is not nearly as effective with fists as Cap America is.



Since when?

Wolverine one shotted Crossbones...

Originally posted by Starscream M
So please don't make such a ridiculous assertion. Cap without his shield is still a great fighter,
Wolverine without his powers is still a great fighter.

Originally posted by Starscream M
as he pretty much fights with his fists and kicks anyways, whereas Logan is heavily neutered without his claws. I'll ask again, since when?

When he got the advantage over DD? Without Claws.
Over Shang Chi? Without Claws til the very end.
Over Ogun the first time? Without claws.
Held off stick? Without claws.
Stood up to the Administrator longer than DP and Shatterstar combined? Without claws.
Went toe to toe with Sabes holding his own for some time? Without claws.
Same with Cyber: Without claws.
Got an advantage over Deadpool in Origins? Without claws, (OR an intent to win for that matter).
Curbed Bucky? Without claws.
Did it again? Without claws.
Railed through Yukio? Without claws.
Manhandled Crusher Creel? Without claws.
Was jacking Lady Deathstrike up immediately after having his Ada pulled out? Without claws.
Punished Warpath? Without claws.
Dominated Domina? Without claws.
Knocked Rogue through a loop? Without claws.
KO'd roughouse? Without claws.

Taught Kitty Pride, Storm, Jubes, Generation X, Black Widow, and a wealth of other X-men how to fight using martial arts... WITHOUT CLAWS OBVIOUSLY...

Were you get off stating that he's a washout without them is so clearly outside of the scope of reality that I can't even believe you seriously said that.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Man I better not say nothing....... Good call. uhuhOriginally posted by Starscream M
wait you're taking away his adamantium AND HF? what's left...just a hairy little runt.

he dies at 1. Do you do anything other than bait and troll?

Originally posted by jinzin


Since when?

Wolverine one shotted Crossbones...


Wolverine without his powers is still a great fighter.

I'll ask again, since when?

When he got the advantage over DD? Without Claws.
Over Shang Chi? Without Claws til the very end.
Over Ogun the first time? Without claws.
Held off stick? Without claws.
Stood up to the Administrator longer than DP and Shatterstar combined? Without claws.
Went toe to toe with Sabes holding his own for some time? Without claws.
Same with Cyber: Without claws.
Got an advantage over Deadpool in Origins? Without claws, (OR an intent to win for that matter).
Curbed Bucky? Without claws.
Did it again? Without claws.
Railed through Yukio? Without claws.
Manhandled Crusher Creel? Without claws.
Was jacking Lady Deathstrike up immediately after having his Ada pulled out? Without claws.
Punished Warpath? Without claws.
Dominated Domina? Without claws.
Knocked Rogue through a loop? Without claws.
KO'd roughouse? Without claws.

Taught Kitty Pride, Storm, Jubes, Generation X, Black Widow, and a wealth of other X-men how to fight using martial arts... WITHOUT CLAWS OBVIOUSLY...

Were you get off stating that he's a washout without them is so clearly outside of the scope of reality that I can't even believe you seriously said that.

Yeah but you are forgetting that all that is apparently overridden by Wolverine not WTF pawning the Punisher.

won't the lack of adamantium turn logan into his feral state? he would have strong fingernails like sabretooth has and enhanced speed, strength, and senses.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
won't the lack of adamantium turn logan into his feral state? he would have strong fingernails like sabretooth has and enhanced speed, strength, and senses. no, the purpose of the thread is to test wolverine hand-to-hand skills Im guessing for all intents and purposes he is human

he gets severely beaten by captain america

Originally posted by cmack
he gets severely beaten by captain america
Lol not even closes. The only time they had a true battle of skill Loganwas the one who walked away while capt..........left on a strecher.........

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Lol not even closes. The only time they had a true battle of skill Loganwas the one who walked away while capt..........left on a strecher......... and if I remember correctly, logan had his claws, adamantium bones, and HF...meaning it is irrelevant to this thread

Originally posted by Starscream M
and if I remember correctly, logan had his claws, adamantium bones, and HF...meaning it is irrelevant to this thread
Logan healing factor was taxed and he was in a weaken state.

capt had his shield and Logan his claws. It pritty relevent actaully. and then part way through the fight Logans claws are made uselesses and he wins via kick which caused capt to ahve a blood clot.

you know whats even funnier. Wolverine with a trash can lid made a bunch of hand and hydra agents believe he was captain america............

Originally posted by Battlehammer
you know whats even funnier. Wolverine with a trash can lid made a bunch of hand and hydra agents believe he was captain america............ uhhh....wtf?

logan looks nothing like Cap

Actually its the "Doesn't have time to adjust that makes this a spite.. as in he just got his adamantium ripped out, so he's in the same critical condition he was in when he had the adamantium ripped out... which means that without the HF its a dying man versus the gauntlet...

Originally posted by Creshosk
Actually its the "Doesn't have time to adjust that makes this a spite.. as in he just got his adamantium ripped out, so he's in the same critical condition he was in when he had the adamantium ripped out... which means that without the HF its a dying man versus the gauntlet...

Stop at Cap. But Cap with the shield and a "normal Wolverine", Wolverine would beat him. Like anyone else on the gauntlet.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
With his healing factor Logan rails him for 10/10 - EASILY.

Wait Wolverine with no claws but with HF owns Cap?

Physically, they are virtually mirror images of each other.
Skillwise, they are virtually mirror images of each other - and any evidence supporting one of them being Superior leans towards Wolverine.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

but Wolverine isn't exactly out of practice - he trains more than almost anyone else -


I bet you're not going to prove that. Its been said on panel that Cap trains constantly. Wolverine ddoes train but he also hangs out in bars. Cap doesn't have much of a life outside training.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

and for the vast majority of his career (as a soldier, as a spy, as a black-opts spook) he didn't rely on his healing factor like he does now or his claws. Comic time wise how long as he been a member of the X-Men? 10-15 years? I don't think that is nearly long enough for him to have forgotten how he used to fight for the other 80+ years... but apparently you do.

If you constantly use your claws for 15 years you will get used to using your claws more.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Based on what exactly?

Wolverine went into clawless melee combat with Domina (who owned the entire group of x-men) and owned her - she couldn't even hit him.


....and how good are the rest of the Xmen at MA?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Wolverine without his claws is a great fighter, arguing otherwise is insanity. Did you know he rarely even used his claws prior to Weapon X? For most of his career (much longer than Caps) he relied on conventional weaponry - guns, knifes and his fists - the reliance on his claws is a relatively new development in Wolverine's long history.


Hes been using his claws for along time now......

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

When Cap first met Wolverine, he wasn't even using his claws and he still saved Cap's ass.

You are seriously selling Wolverine short.

He was at the beginning of his career. Cap had to start somewhere dont use that excuse again.



Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah but you are forgetting that all that is apparently overridden by Wolverine not WTF pawning the Punisher.

Yeah I could say that especially when he has a better track record against Daredevil. Wolverine had trouble beating DD and he had help. I dont bother telling me that he beat DD in 3 panels because DD was distracted and jinzin has used this argument as to why Silver Samurai go an advantage over Wolverine.

Ok lets have a look at other examples:

Had trouble taking down an injured Punisher
Beaten by Punisher.
Humiliated by Molly Hayes
Punked by Moon Knight
Had trouble beating DD and he had backup from hand ninjas
Got punked by Black Panther (scond tier apparently) because he was too slow
On another ocassion BP was embarrasing Wolverine but Wolverine manged to beat him because BP wasn't taking the fight serioulsy
Shingen was kicking his ass. Wolverines adamantuim and Hf saved him.
In his 4 Part series he mentioned on numerous ocassions that his Hf and adamantuim saved his life
Got taken out by hand ninjas.



Originally posted by jinzin


When he got the advantage over DD? Without Claws.
Over Shang Chi? Without Claws til the very end.
Over Ogun the first time? Without claws.
Held off stick? Without claws.
Stood up to the Administrator longer than DP and Shatterstar combined? Without claws.
Went toe to toe with Sabes holding his own for some time? Without claws.
Same with Cyber: Without claws.
Got an advantage over Deadpool in Origins? Without claws, (OR an intent to win for that matter).
Curbed Bucky? Without claws.
Did it again? Without claws.
Railed through Yukio? Without claws.
Manhandled Crusher Creel? Without claws.
Was jacking Lady Deathstrike up immediately after having his Ada pulled out? Without claws.
Punished Warpath? Without claws.
Dominated Domina? Without claws.
Knocked Rogue through a loop? Without claws.
KO'd roughouse? Without claws.

Taught Kitty Pride, Storm, Jubes, Generation X, Black Widow, and a wealth of other X-men how to fight using martial arts... WITHOUT CLAWS OBVIOUSLY...

Were you get off stating that he's a washout without them is so clearly outside of the scope of reality that I can't even believe you seriously said that.

Wolverine is a good fighter without his claws but the list doesnt prove that hes better than most of the list without claws. It would help if he didn't get embarrased by second tier and third tier fighters.

Stop using DD as an examples he was distracted. Oh yeah Crossbones wasn't really trying to fight back when he encountered Wolverine. Theres no way hes going to beat Wolverine and then DD then get past SHIELD, Tony Starks and his henchmen.

Also even without claws his fists can be like adamantuim knuckledusters.

Originally posted by Starscream M
uhhh....wtf?

logan looks nothing like Cap
..he was in the shadows and he mimic capt skills........

Originally posted by Battlehammer
..he was in the shadows and he mimic capt skills........

So what? Do they know Cap intimately? He also made some people think he was beat as well. Dont mean a goddamn thing because none of those people know Cap or Beast well enough to know the difference.

You also said it yourself he was in the shadows.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So what? Do they know Cap intimately? He also made some people think he was beat as well. Dont mean a goddamn thing because none of those people know Cap or Beast well enough to know the difference.

You also said it yourself he was in the shadows.
actaully they know capt amazingly well. They have studied his style and combat skills. It quite impressive for wolverine to make them believe he fighting capt with only a trash can lid............


the people that said wolverine was beast were not people who studied beast and they assumed so due to agility..........


are you really going to simply ignore such feat?


yea and? how does the shadows take away from the feat? They know what wolverine and capt look like.............if they saw him they would no right away he aint capt. He mimic capt fighting style to the point were individuals trained to know capt thought he was capt.............

Originally posted by Battlehammer
actaully they know capt amazingly well. They have studied his style and combat skills. It quite impressive for wolverine to make them believe he fighting capt with only a trash can lid............

That is simply because he threw a trashcan lid with accuracy. I think anybody would think that it was probably Cap.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

the people that said wolverine was beast were not people who studied beast and they assumed so due to agility

Actually they just said some blue guy was jumping around. This other guy assumes it was beast because people described himas being blue and being agile.


Originally posted by Battlehammer


are you really going to simply ignore such feat?


yea and? how does the shadows take away from the feat? They know what wolverine and capt look like.............if they saw him they would no right away he aint capt. He mimic capt fighting style to the point were individuals trained to know capt thought he was capt.............

Er you are exaggerting. Look at the scan again.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1253/wolvieiscapgp1.jpg

Hell they thought he was Cap even before he started fighting. Why? They thought he was carrying a shield, they added 1 and 1 together and got 3. His skill at throwing the lid is impressive as well but thet doesn't mean hes analysed Caps style to a T. Hell im pretty sure there are lots of street levelrs that could throw Caps shield with moderate accuracy.

If they know so much about Cap how comes they didn't know he shrunk in size?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Is this a gauntlet or does is he at %100 at each fight?

If he is at 100% for each match -

1. Bullseye - Wolverine wins
2. Punisher - Wolverine wins
3. Shang Chi - (With out Chi) Wolverine wins / (With Chi) Shang wins
4. Iron Fist (without chi) - Wolverine wins
5. Elecktra - Elecktra wins
6. Daredevil - Wolverine wins
7. Captain America - Cap gets the slight majority
8. Shingen with sword - Shingen wins why do you belive that wolverine will do do well when he obviously wont?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wait Wolverine with no claws but with HF owns Cap?


Yes.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Physically, they are virtually mirror images of each other.
Skillwise, they are virtually mirror images of each other - and any evidence supporting one of them being Superior leans towards Wolverine.


I just said that.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I bet you're not going to prove that. Its been said on panel that Cap trains constantly. Wolverine ddoes train but he also hangs out in bars. Cap doesn't have much of a life outside training.


It's been shown on panel that Wolverine constantly trains. It is what he does - he lives and breaths combat, and he trains constantly. Captain America trains, but not to the extent Wolverine does. Logan runs the hell out of the Danger-room. He runs through simulations of himself vs. Magneto for hours, and hours on end. He trains himself. He trains the X-Men. He trains the students. When he isn't fighting or drinking (which usually leads to a fight), or on his way to a fight, he trains.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
If you constantly use your claws for 15 years you will get used to using your claws more.


Based on what?

I haven't done life drawing (aside from maybe half a dozen instances) in years, but I guarantee you that if I left my house right now and went to a figure drawing class, not only would my gestures not have lost any of their former glory but they in all likeliness be much better then what I was drawing years ago. Fifteen years is nothing, absolutely nothing to a man who is more than 120 years old, hasn't aged since WW2 and who's mind has addled. It is like Iron Fist taking a week long sabbatical by comparison... except Wolverine still uses his fights a lot anyway.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
....and how good are the rest of the Xmen at MA?


Irrelevant.

She destroyed the X-Men. She walked all over them, she was shrugging of blows from Colossus... and Wolverine shows up and works her over with out even using his claws. She was vastly superhuman.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hes been using his claws for along time now......


10-15 years comic time isn't that long for a 120 year old man; and he has been using his fists in conjunction with his claws in equal measures for all that time anyway.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah I could say that especially when he has a better track record against Daredevil. Wolverine had trouble beating DD and he had help. I dont bother telling me that he beat DD in 3 panels because DD was distracted and jinzin has used this argument as to why Silver Samurai go an advantage over Wolverine.


Wolverine was mind controlled when he "fought" Daredevil in EotS. He was trying to resist the mind control by his own admission. Going after Daredevil in the first place was nothing more than an distraction to lure out Elektra...

Tell me champ, was Daredevil as distracted as Wolverine was when he got blindsided by out of the blue by another superhero?

Daredevil is a professional, a professional with intimate knowledge of Mary... how surprised do you think Matt was (and as a lawyer one imagines he has a knowledge of mental illnesses) to find out that a someone with DID, developed a new personality? Shocking right?

He attacked Wolverine. They grappled. Matt kicked at Logan. Wolverine avoided it. Daredevil was put in a full nelson.

... and don't you think being mind controlled, having several voices in your head telling you what to do while you are trying to resist them and fight at the same time is a much bigger distraction then finding out someone with DID has developed a new personality? Like a much, much bigger distraction?


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok lets have a look at other examples:


This should be fun.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Had trouble taking down an injured Punisher


PIS

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Beaten by Punisher.


When they teamed up and Punisher decided to attack him afterwards?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Humiliated by Molly Hayes


Wolverine let a little girl punch him... nice example. Maybe he should have killed her?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punked by Moon Knight




In a massive superhero free for all during Infinity Crusade, he managed to hit Wolverine once... Awesome?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Had trouble beating DD and he had backup from hand ninjas


Already addressed this.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Got punked by Black Panther (scond tier apparently) because he was too slow




He managed to toss Wolverine? Big deal. Wolverine's done that to the freaken Mandarin. By your logic Wolverine is faster than the Mandarin. Are you saying Wolverine is faster and more skilled then that Mandarin?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
On another ocassion BP was Embarrassing Wolverine but Wolverine manged to beat him because BP wasn't taking the fight serioulsy


Embarrassing? Black Panther dodged one attack then he tried to hide rather than fight fight Wolverine. When he realised Wolverine had supper human senses, he attacked him... and was quickly taken down.

... and since you love the "distracted" argument so much, Wolverine actually WAS distracted in his fight. BP only managed to get away because Wolverine was distracted by the Thing (by BP's own admittance).


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Shingen was kicking his ass. Wolverines adamantuim and Hf saved him.


And tell me, how well did Shingen managed to do the last time he fought Wolverine? Wolverine wreaked him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Got taken out by hand ninjas.


When?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wolverine is a good fighter without his claws but the list doesnt prove that hes better than most of the list without claws. It would help if he didn't get embarrased by second tier and third tier fighters.


I guess I don't need to address this since I just tore you list of examples apart?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Stop using DD as an examples he was distracted. Oh yeah Crossbones wasn't really trying to fight back when he encountered Wolverine. Theres no way hes going to beat Wolverine and then DD then get past SHIELD, Tony Starks and his henchmen.


He didn't try and fight back because he was unconcious. He shot Wolverine. Wolverine punched him. Once. Without his claws. Crossbones was koyed.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Also even without claws his fists can be like adamantuim knuckledusters.


Not really. The premise of knuckle dusters is that the force of the blow is applied to a much smaller surface area, the fact they are made out of metal has little to do with the damage they dole out... in fact a lot of them are made out of hard plastics. Any additional damage to Wolverine's punches from adamantium would be a result of him weighting more and have more weight behind his punches. Hardness of his bones wouldn't make much a difference,

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes.



I just said that.



It's been shown on panel that Wolverine constantly trains. It is what he does - he lives and breaths combat, and he trains constantly. Captain America trains, but not to the extent Wolverine does. Logan runs the hell out of the Danger-room. He runs through simulations of himself vs. Magneto for hours, and hours on end. He trains himself. He trains the X-Men. He trains the students. When he isn't fighting or drinking (which usually leads to a fight), or on his way to a fight, he trains.



Based on what?

I haven't done life drawing (aside from maybe half a dozen instances) in years, but I guarantee you that if I left my house right now and went to a figure drawing class, not only would my gestures not have lost any of their former glory but they in all likeliness be much better then what I was drawing years ago. Fifteen years is nothing, absolutely nothing to a man who is more than 120 years old, hasn't aged since WW2 and who's mind has addled. It is like Iron Fist taking a week long sabbatical by comparison... except Wolverine still uses his fights a lot anyway.






Irrelevant.

She destroyed the X-Men. She walked all over them, she was shrugging of blows from Colossus... and Wolverine shows up and works her over with out even using his claws. She was vastly superhuman.



10-15 years comic time isn't that long for a 120 year old man; and he has been using his fists in conjunction with his claws in equal measures for all that time anyway.



Wolverine was mind controlled when he "fought" Daredevil in EotS. He was trying to resist the mind control by his own admission. Going after Daredevil in the first place was nothing more than an distraction to lure out Elektra...

Tell me champ, was Daredevil as distracted as Wolverine was when he got blindsided by out of the blue by another superhero?

Daredevil is a professional, a professional with intimate knowledge of Mary... how surprised do you think Matt was (and as a lawyer one imagines he has a knowledge of mental illnesses) to find out that a someone with DID, developed a new personality? Shocking right?

He attacked Wolverine. They grappled. Matt kicked at Logan. Wolverine avoided it. Daredevil was put in a full nelson.

... and don't you think being mind controlled, having several voices in your head telling you what to do while you are trying to resist them and fight at the same time is a much bigger distraction then finding out someone with DID has developed a new personality? Like a much, much bigger distraction?




This should be fun.



PIS



When they teamed up and Punisher decided to attack him afterwards?



Wolverine let a little girl punch him... nice example. Maybe he should have killed her?





In a massive superhero free for all during Infinity Crusade, he managed to hit Wolverine once... Awesome?



Already addressed this.





He managed to toss Wolverine? Big deal. Wolverine's done that to the freaken Mandarin. By your logic Wolverine is faster than the Mandarin. Are you saying Wolverine is faster and more skilled then that Mandarin?



Embarrassing? Black Panther dodged one attack then he tried to hide rather than fight fight Wolverine. When he realised Wolverine had supper human senses, he attacked him... and was quickly taken down.

... and since you love the "distracted" argument so much, Wolverine actually WAS distracted in his fight. BP only managed to get away because Wolverine was distracted by the Thing (by BP's own admittance).




And tell me, how well did Shingen managed to do the last time he fought Wolverine? Wolverine wreaked him.



When?



I guess I don't need to address this since I just tore you list of examples apart?



He didn't try and fight back because he was unconcious. He shot Wolverine. Wolverine punched him. Once. Without his claws. Crossbones was koyed.



Not really. The premise of knuckle dusters is that the force of the blow is applied to a much smaller surface area, the fact they are made out of metal has little to do with the damage they dole out... in fact a lot of them are made out of hard plastics. Any additional damage to Wolverine's punches from adamantium would be a result of him weighting more and have more weight behind his punches. Hardness of his bones wouldn't make much a difference, This twisted wretched place shadowed by the utmost darks of hell
in dreams of black beyond the bounds of a withered witch's spell
where the doors surely are locked when the sun threatens to wane
where shamblers dwell in dim moon light beyond the warmth of day

liars line the roads at dawn watchful eyes are upon you held
sacred weapons to the sacred revealed to be unleashed upon the council of hell
blood flows down the streets at night where wolves cry out for flesh
where a horrible curse taints the woodlands nearby with the forms of the walking dead

unholy inversion of hope twisting the faith of the meek into hate
driven insane by the dark one to bring forth the foul biddings he speaks
the undead are among us at dawn they shrink back to their silken beds
they dance by night and drink the blood of a child's broken neck

his spires are growing taller still their shadows stretching throughout the land
freeing the evils that sleep within the weaker minds of man

into the tower never go the horrors multiply
gears can mince the strongest ones leaving heroes paralyzed
the rivers flow with poison the sands swallow you whole
the ghouls that roam this darkened wood are thirsting for your throat


and thats why i dont like that.

The Black Dahlia Murder?

Worst deathmetal/metalcore band ever.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He runs through simulations of himself vs. Magneto for hours, and hours on end. He trains himself. he must be a masochist, unless he thinks with practice, he can demagnetize his adamantium.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin



Not really. The premise of knuckle dusters is that the force of the blow is applied to a much smaller surface area, the fact they are made out of metal has little to do with the damage they dole out... in fact a lot of them are made out of hard plastics. Any additional damage to Wolverine's punches from adamantium would be a result of him weighting more and have more weight behind his punches. Hardness of his bones wouldn't make much a difference,

I don't want to be part of the argument, but I do want to add something.

Wolverine's adamantium skeleton allows him to punch freely as much as he wants because he doesn't really need to worry about destroying his knuckles while punching or destroying any other bones of his. He also doesn't really have to worry about pulling any muscles or tearing tendons while punching, thanks to his healing factor. I do recall something about your bones giving in a little when you're punching something, because of the shock of the impact, but I can't remember the specific details about that, so I guess Wolverine has that advantage too.

And, Wolverine does have some kind of super strength (Let's say max. 2 ton) and at least I believe this is due to his Adamantium skeleton which doesn't give in when doing some of the feats he's doing and I also believe it gives him some kind of leverage advantage. Not to forget about his healing factor which probably boost his muscles to a degree (Repairs the tearing caused by heavy lifting for example immediately) So does Wolverine have this "extra" strength in this gauntlet?

But IMO the Domina case was just plain PIS, Domina was supposed to have all the Powers of her clan members, including the one's who was pretty much strong/durable as Colossus. I doubt merely punching someone like Colossus would help, no matter how skilled you are.

Besides, it's not like Cap and the likes aim to kill/handicap people they fight against, on the other hand Wolverine doesn't really care about killing, hand ninjas for example.

Also, I believe Cap would take Wolvie down in this gauntlet. He has the stamina advantage and he has fought all these years without any real powers and is probably familiar with Logan's style. And if this was really a bloodlusted Cap I believe he could use some of his more exotic skills and would aim to kill Wolverine instead of knocking him out.

Originally posted by Rhinoceros
I don't want to be part of the argument, but I do want to add something.

Wolverine's adamantium skeleton allows him to punch freely as much as he wants because he doesn't really need to worry about destroying his knuckles while punching or destroying any other bones of his. He also doesn't really have to worry about pulling any muscles or tearing tendons while punching, thanks to his healing factor. I do recall something about your bones giving in a little when you're punching something, because of the shock of the impact, but I can't remember the specific details about that, so I guess Wolverine has that advantage too.


this is comics, not real life. I don't ever remember someone holding back a punch because they worried about injuring their bones. Don't apply real life anatomy to comics.

I've seen regular humans in comics being thrown through walls without a single fracture, whereas in reallife if someone was thrown at a wall with tremendous force, the wall would be unaffected and the person would be dead.

Originally posted by Starscream M
this is comics, not real life. I don't ever remember someone holding back a punch because they worried about injuring their bones. Don't apply real life anatomy to comics.

I've seen regular humans in comics being thrown through walls without a single fracture, whereas in reallife if someone was thrown at a wall with tremendous force, the wall would be unaffected and the person would be dead.

Actually it's called "common sense" and people pull their punches all the time in the comics, and it's not like we know if people punch as hard as they can in comics, it's never stated. I believe comic characters don't use all of their might to punch as it could possibly hinder their technique and they could cause damage to themselves. People who haven't had martial arts training usually hurt their hands when punching HARD, Spider-man for example (He hit Morlun with all he had and in the end he broke his arm)

Got a point there though, these are the guys who heal back from a skeleton and have super powers.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Wolverine is a good fighter without his claws but the list doesnt prove that hes better than most of the list without claws. It would help if he didn't get embarrased by second tier and third tier fighters.

Stop using DD as an examples he was distracted. Oh yeah Crossbones wasn't really trying to fight back when he encountered Wolverine. Theres no way hes going to beat Wolverine and then DD then get past SHIELD, Tony Starks and his henchmen.

Also even without claws his fists can be like adamantuim knuckledusters.

What was I thinking? Wolverine beating top tier fighters without his claws, high ranking fighters without his claws, and superpowered tanks without his claws proves NOTHING of his skill, nothing at all and Marvel doesn't know what the hell they're talking about when they say he's one of Marvels best h2h fighters, or when Cable does, or Cap compliments his skill, or Zaran does, or ANY of the X-Men, OR their files, or government files from SHIELD or from Weapon X, anyone who says he's more than an overglorified streetbrawler is full of total CRAP! Hell, Marvel shouldn't even put him at a level 7, the guy should be more like two, I mean c'mon Moonkight shoulder threw him so he MUST suck....

And we all know that DD has NO discipline when he gets into fights either, and all those representations of him in comics carrying on conversations, coming up with plans, communicating with allies while fighting multiple enemies and attributing his ability to multitask to his skill and radar sense are just nonsense. We all know he has worse A.D.D. than an art teacher. NO WAY that would even happen to him in a real fight, in a REAL FIGHT Daredevil would judp chop Wolverine in the throat once and down he'd go! Wolverine's a chump with zero skill anything and anyone... everything and everyone that says different.. CRAP!
Molly Hayes punching Wolverine out the door when he insults her is TOTALLY a portrayal of his lack of skill.. and his feats of skill? PIS!

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The Black Dahlia Murder?

Worst deathmetal/metalcore band ever. ive seen them live you need to see them live to get a taste of what there all about.who would you say is the best deathmetal band then?except for the obvious ones like death and morbid angel.

Originally posted by Rhinoceros


Also, I believe Cap would take Wolvie down in this gauntlet. He has the stamina advantage and he has fought all these years without any real powers and is probably familiar with Logan's style. And if this was really a bloodlusted Cap I believe he could use some of his more exotic skills and would aim to kill Wolverine instead of knocking him out.
I don't really care that you believe capt wins, but your reasoning is completely flawed.

for one capt does not have superior stamina. His stamina is inferior.

second logan would be just as familiar if not more so with capt style.

third logan knows far more styles and has far greater range of exotic skills.

Originally posted by carnage52
ive seen them live you need to see them live to get a taste of what there all about.who would you say is the best deathmetal band then?except for the obvious ones like death and morbid angel.

I saw part of one of their sets in - maybe - Burlington.

I don't know maybe Job for a Cowboy or Darkest Hour on the melodic deathmetal side. The Haunted are pretty sweet too.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Not really. The premise of knuckle dusters is that the force of the blow is applied to a much smaller surface area, the fact they are made out of metal has little to do with the damage they dole out... in fact a lot of them are made out of hard plastics. Any additional damage to Wolverine's punches from adamantium would be a result of him weighting more and have more weight behind his punches. Hardness of his bones wouldn't make much a difference,
hardness of bones actual makes a huge difference in strikes. for example ever been kicked in the thigh by someones shin. ever been kicked in the thigh by a guy he is constantly conditioning his shin.

the harder the surface the more it hurts if you apply the same amount of force. Just like one person can punch you in the rib and it just hurt alot and another of equal size and weight can break it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I saw part of one of their sets in - maybe - Burlington.

I don't know maybe Job for a Cowboy or Darkest Hour on the melodic deathmetal side. The Haunted are pretty sweet too. agreed about the haunted but job got booed off when they where supporting megadeth they just cant play live.

Originally posted by jalek moye
hardness of bones actual makes a huge difference in strikes. for example ever been kicked in the thigh by someones shin. ever been kicked in the thigh by a guy he is constantly conditioning his shin.

the harder the surface the more it hurts if you apply the same amount of force. Just like one person can punch you in the rib and it just hurt alot and another of equal size and weight can break it.

The purposes for hardening the shins is to get callouses, deaden the nerves and strengthen the bone; it is to prevent injury to your self, not increase the damage you do to others. The only damage increase would come from the added mass on the bones... which would be minuscule.

You put more power behind your blows with out fear of injury, but it won't be any more power then you could do with hardening the bones (just less risk of injury). It all comes down to technique.

Originally posted by carnage52
agreed about the haunted but job got booed off when they where supporting megadeth they just cant play live.

I've never seen Job live. Either way, they are a pretty sweet studio band if nothing else.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I've never seen Job live. Either way, they are a pretty sweet studio band if nothing else. agreed but bdm are mind blowing studio and live.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes.

Prove it?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

I just said that. .

Oops.



Originally posted by srankmissingnin

It's been shown on panel that Wolverine constantly trains. It is what he does - he lives and breaths combat, and he trains constantly. Captain America trains, but not to the extent Wolverine does. Logan runs the hell out of the Danger-room. He runs through simulations of himself vs. Magneto for hours, and hours on end. He trains himself. He trains the X-Men. He trains the students. When he isn't fighting or drinking (which usually leads to a fight), or on his way to a fight, he trains. .Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Er that proves that he trains alot that doesn't prove constantly. Hes been shown on numerous ocassions hanging out in bars so that shows he frequently takes a break from training.

Its actually been stated that Cap trains constantly and Cap doesnt really have a life.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Based on what?


I haven't done life drawing (aside from maybe half a dozen instances) in years, but I guarantee you that if I left my house right now and went to a figure drawing class, not only would my gestures not have lost any of their former glory but they in all likeliness be much better then what I was drawing years ago. Fifteen years is nothing, absolutely nothing to a man who is more than 120 years old, hasn't aged since WW2 and who's mind has addled. It is like Iron Fist taking a week long sabbatical by comparison... except Wolverine still uses his fights a lot anyway.

Well im gonna have to take your word for it and your word doesnt mean a thing to me. Especially when you come out with stuff like Wolverine rolled with a punch despite the fact his mouth was on the other side of his face. You also think its funny to make racist jokes....so if you're gonna tell me aboout what you personally experience im going to take it with a heavy pinch of salt. So unless you can come up with something better than what you persoanlly experience im going to ignore it.

As far as im concerned if you use claws 90 percent of the time for 10 or 15 years you will lose some of your H2H. Im pretty goddman sure people can think of examples were they have lacked in skills because they didnt practice enough.....but im supposed to take your word for it.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Irrelevant.

She destroyed the X-Men. She walked all over them, she was shrugging of blows from Colossus... and Wolverine shows up and works her over with out even using his claws. She was vastly superhuman.

Ok fair enough. I'll give you that your not clinching this with just that feat alone.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

10-15 years comic time isn't that long for a 120 year old man; and he has been using his fists in conjunction with his claws in equal measures for all that time anyway.]

1. Irrelevant. He maybe 120 but 15 years is still enough time to get used to using his claws.
2. Stop exaggerating his uses his claws 90 percent of the time but im pretty sure you could cherry pick examples of him using his fists.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Wolverine was mind controlled when he "fought" Daredevil in EotS. He was trying to resist the mind control by his own admission.

Yeah and Wolverine said that his HF had reduced according to jinzin that doesnt prove anything because he hadnt actually ssutained any damage. So Wolverine saying that he was resisting is not enough evidence

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Going after Daredevil in the first place was nothing more than an distraction to lure out Elektra...

WRONG! Gorgon said that Wolverine may or may not have mudered Daredevil. So killling DD was part of his orders.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Tell me champ, was Daredevil as distracted as Wolverine was when he got blindsided by out of the blue by another superhero?

What?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Daredevil is a professional, a professional with intimate knowledge of Mary... how surprised do you think Matt was (and as a lawyer one imagines he has a knowledge of mental illnesses) to find out that a someone with DID, developed a new personality? Shocking right?

He attacked Wolverine. They grappled. Matt kicked at Logan. Wolverine avoided it. Daredevil was put in a full nelson.

Stop twisting things around Daredevil was clearly suprised he said 'What???'

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

... and don't you think being mind controlled, having several voices in your head telling you what to do while you are trying to resist them and fight at the same time is a much bigger distraction then finding out someone with DID has developed a new personality? Like a much, much bigger distraction? .

He didnt have several voices in his head that was just internal dialogue representing the two sides of his personality (mindcontrolled, non mindcontrolled). You havent proven that he was trying to resist mindcontrol.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin



PIS.

Prove it. Punishers evded a suprise attack from Captain America and beaten DD why would it be PIS?


Originally posted by srankmissingnin



When they teamed up and Punisher decided to attack him afterwards?
.

What?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Wolverine let a little girl punch him... nice example. Maybe he should have killed her?.

Please use common sense...he could have dodged.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin




In a massive superhero free for all during Infinity Crusade, he managed to hit Wolverine once... Awesome?


The point is Wolverine had the advantage and STILL got humilated.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Already addressed this.

No you didn't.



Originally posted by srankmissingnin



He managed to toss Wolverine? Big deal. Wolverine's done that to the freaken Mandarin. By your logic Wolverine is faster than the Mandarin. Are you saying Wolverine is faster and more skilled then that Mandarin? .

Wolverine has been embarrased by third tiers and second tiers on numerous ocassions clearly you are exaggerating how much benefit that Wolverine gains from his experience.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Embarrassing? Black Panther dodged one attack then he tried to hide rather than fight fight Wolverine. When he realised Wolverine had supper human senses, he attacked him... and was quickly taken down.
.

No he dodged more than one attack....BP wasn't taking the fight seriously.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

... and since you love the "distracted" argument so much, Wolverine actually WAS distracted in his fight. BP only managed to get away because Wolverine was distracted by the Thing (by BP's own admittance)..

Lol stop twsiting things around. BP wsnt taking the fight serioulsy when he found out Wolverine wasnt messing it was too late. Actually thats an excuse jinzin uses alot obvoulsy you're not paying attention.



Originally posted by srankmissingnin

And tell me, how well did Shingen managed to do the last time he fought Wolverine? Wolverine wreaked him.

Maybe you'd like to post the scans of the fight. Did Wolverines HF help him at all?


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

When ?

4-part series. Wolverine got Koed by poisoned shurkkiens. He also admitted that on another ocassion his bones stopped him from getting killed by some hand ninjas. Hell Punsiher recently embarassed some hand ninjas...I guess its impossible for him to do well against him.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

I guess I don't need to address this since I just tore you list of examples apart?

Srank if you shat on a piece of a paper and scanned it you would think thats a good example of you tearing an argument apart. You constantly pat yourself on the back for doing rubbish.

Hell heres another example of you twisting things around.....based on this scan...

http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11qo4.jpg


Your response.....


Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Or it could be that his shirt was the only that gut cut because, you know, it was glancing blow? I mean, Wonder Man looks pretty dead set on not getting stabbed here... if he couldn't be pierced, why put up such a struggle?
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3595/82069482mg1.th.jpg

How the hell did you assume he was dead set on not getting hit when he was pissed off and why did you assume it was a glancing blow.......tttttttterrible.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

He didn't try and fight back because he was unconcious. He shot Wolverine. Wolverine punched him. Once. Without his claws. Crossbones was koyed.

Even if that was the case your not clinching it with that example. I think it was incorrect to say that he didn't try to fight back but he clearly couldn't careless wether he lived or died. I think he damn well knew that unloading that gun into Wolverine wouldnt have done a damn thing and he was in a hopless situation hes not getting past DD or Wolverine or getting out of that place.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Not really. The premise of knuckle dusters is that the force of the blow is applied to a much smaller surface area, the fact they are made out of metal has little to do with the damage they dole out... in fact a lot of them are made out of hard plastics. Any additional damage to Wolverine's punches from adamantium would be a result of him weighting more and have more weight behind his punches. Hardness of his bones wouldn't make much a difference,

Well they're not made out of rubber are they????? Man you really love to twist things around. Right so hard plastic knuckledusters weight alot do they???? Jesus Christ!

May squeak by Daredevil, stops at cap.

3 or 5

I would think ironfist stops him

Lol, "Wolverine goes to bars he MUST NOT train as much as Cap, I mean all those times that Cap's showing up for public appearances, that isn't him it's just some actor posing as Cap, so he can train cause he doesn't have a life, not like he helps lead the avengers, Teams up with Falcon, or is basically on-call for the president at a whim...."

"Wolverine saying he's fighting mind control after trying is totally the same as Wolverine saying his HF is reduced before he has a chance to use it when someone told him it might be... totally."

"Daredevil was soooo way surprised! I mean, the guy said what.. WHAT for god sakes, Wolverine being divebombed by Matt from several stories up is nothin in comparison... he said WHAT!"

"Please use common sense, Wolverine was being screamed at by a little girl, the man should have been ready for a fight.. with a little girl.... with the Avengers there.... in a church..... That's totally a display of how crappy his fighting skills are.."

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Jesus christ is right.. your arguments are getting sadder and sadder...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wolverine gets stripped of his adamantuim and his HF. He doesn't have time to adjust, how well does he do? None of his opponents have any weapons except Shingen.

1. Bullseye
2. Punisher
3. Shang Chi
4. Iron Fist (without chi)
5. Elecktra
6. Daredevil
7. Captain America
8. Shingen with sword

Stops at 5 and if he doesn't, he definitely stops at 7.

hes better than ironfist?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Prove it?


Wolverine is more likely to take Cap down then vica versa?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well im gonna have to take your word for it and your word doesnt mean a thing to me. Especially when you come out with stuff like Wolverine rolled with a punch despite the fact his mouth was on the other side of his face. You also think its funny to make racist jokes....so if you're gonna tell me aboout what you personally experience im going to take it with a heavy pinch of salt. So unless you can come up with something better than what you persoanlly experience im going to ignore it.


He did roll with the punch. That's why he didn't take any knock back an Blade was pinned in the next panel.

I think you are confused (not totally out of character for you) about what you have issue with. I think you are mad that I said that it is possible that Wolverine wasn't even hit at all (which it is), not that that he rolled with the momentum... as any skilled fighter would.

Spin around really fast. Video tap it. Watch said tape in super slow motion. Your face will look like that. Physics.

Racist jokes?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
1. Irrelevant. He maybe 120 but 15 years is still enough time to get used to using his claws.
2. Stop exaggerating his uses his claws 90 percent of the time but im pretty sure you could cherry pick examples of him using his fists.

In your opinion 10 - 15 of operating with his claws, supersedes more than 80 years of operating with out them. That doesn't make a lick of sense. 15 years is a ripple in the lake of Wolverine's life, it is no time at all relatively speaking.

Every fight against someone without a healing factor? Wolverine uses his fists all the time in conjunction with his healing factor.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah and Wolverine said that his HF had reduced according to jinzin that doesnt prove anything because he hadnt actually ssutained any damage. So Wolverine saying that he was resisting is not enough evidence


Can't really comment on this since I don't know the incident you where talking about. Wolverine's healing factor is in a slump a lot, and I tend to believe jinzin over you.

Did you even read EotS? He had multiple personalities in his head, several different voices of narration (white, tan, and green)... that where arguing with each other. Wolverine was trying to resist the mind control, he was trying to resist the moment he was activated inside SHIELD's Helicarrier. He even stopped what he was doing to save a woman who was being rapped. How can you possibly argue he wasn't trying to resist the mind control? That's absurd.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
WRONG! Gorgon said that Wolverine may or may not have mudered Daredevil. So killling DD was part of his orders.


Exactly. He said he may or may not kill him because it was up to Wolverine's discretion. The plan was to draw Elektra into the open and distract Daredevil while Gorgon took her down. Daredevil was nothing more than a distraction, whether or not Wolverine brought him down didn't matter. It wasn't his mission to do it... but I can't imagine Hydra would have carried either way.

If Wolverine was intent on killing Matt, don't you think he would have done it? He had him dead to rights when he first stormed Matt's apartment, but talked with him instead of popping his claws. Now why would he do this? Because he was waiting for Elektra to show up. Matt didn't matter.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What?


I'm asking you if you think it is more surprising / distracting to find out that someone with Dissociative Identity Disorder has developed a new personality (I know, shocking right? :rolleyes, or to get completely blinded sided by a diveboming vigilante?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Stop twisting things around Daredevil was clearly suprised he said 'What???'




ZOMG! He said "What???" My mistake, he WAS distracted!!!!

How many times did you say "what" in this post I am quoting? I'm I to take you saying "what" as a sign that my amazing debating skills have spun your little brain for a loop and completely dumbfounded you? And all your responses after that have keen typed in the haste of a shocked mind?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Prove it. Punishers evded a suprise attack from Captain America and beaten DD why would it be PIS?


He's also been humiliated by Daredevil and admitted that he can't even beat Bucky. If I really need to explain to you why Punisher hanging with Wolverine is PIS, then a honestly suggest you go get a CAT scan.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What?


...

Pretty straight forward sentence... not sure what has confused you.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Please use common sense...he could have dodged.


...

...

...

Why? Have you ever been around a child? They throw tantrums. They hit people. Why bother to evade the bunch of a little girl? Wolverine didn't know she had superstrength. Do you think Wolverine is concerned with the potential damage output of an 11 year old girl to bother dodging it?

Please use common sense?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The point is Wolverine had the advantage and STILL got humilated.


He hit Moonknight once. Moonknight hit him once. Not exactly humiliation...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No you didn't.


Yes I did... and you responded to... and here we are now...

What's wrong with you?

CAT scan please.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wolverine has been embarrased by third tiers and second tiers on numerous ocassions clearly you are exaggerating how much benefit that Wolverine gains from his experience.


So far we have this.

Wolverine let an 11 year old girl punch him...

Wolverine was hit once by Moonknight... then went on to fight other people since he was in a massive free for all.

Black Panther managed to toss him...

Nothing particularly embarrassing there.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No he dodged more than one attack....BP wasn't taking the fight seriously.


Black dodged one attack. Went into hiding. Realised Wolverine could locate him. Attacked Wolverine. Got pinned.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Lol stop twsiting things around. BP wsnt taking the fight serioulsy when he found out Wolverine wasnt messing it was too late. Actually thats an excuse jinzin uses alot obvoulsy you're not paying attention.


Black Panther knew that Wolverine wasn't messing around right after he dodged the first attack and went into hiding. It was only after this that he attacked Wolverine. He only managed to walk away because Wolverine got distracted by Grimm.

Are you talking about jinzin's theory that Wolverine's healing factor's speed has a direct correlation with adrenaline, that being why cheap shots have more effect than punches sustained in the heat of battle?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Maybe you'd like to post the scans of the fight. Did Wolverines HF help him at all?


Nope. Wolverine took a single hit right before he "killed" Shingen. It was a none lethal blow, Shingen's sword hit him in the eye. Pretty impressive considering that Shingen's lacky (the Silver Samurai) has managed to two shot Spider-man.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
4-part series. Wolverine got Koed by poisoned shurkkiens. He also admitted that on another ocassion his bones stopped him from getting killed by some hand ninjas. Hell Punsiher recently embarassed some hand ninjas...I guess its impossible for him to do well against him.


Everyone has embarassed the Hand. They are fodder, it is the sole reason the exisit.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Srank if you shat on a piece of a paper and scanned it you would think thats a good example of you tearing an argument apart. You constantly pat yourself on the back for doing rubbish.




I've responded to your post, and what was you counter post? Nothing. You ignored everything I said and posted your original post again worded differently. You are a joke and you are grasping at straws.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11qo4.jpg


Your response.....




How the hell did you assume he was dead set on not getting hit when he was pissed off and why did you assume it was a glancing blow.......tttttttterrible.




Nice job digging that up. /golfclap

... Now how about you show the page before that scan - you know - the one I was actually talking about?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Even if that was the case your not clinching it with that example. I think it was incorrect to say that he didn't try to fight back but he clearly couldn't careless Whether he lived or died. I think he damn well knew that unloading that gun into Wolverine wouldnt have done a damn thing and he was in a hopless situation hes not getting past DD or Wolverine or getting out of that place.


He got one shotted. Whether or not he intended to fight back is irrelevant, that ship sailed when he was knocked out with a single punch.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well they're not made out of rubber are they????? Man you really love to twist things around. Right so hard plastic knuckledusters weight alot do they???? Jesus Christ!

*sigh*

Once again. The damage of the knuckle duster comes from the fact that the force of the blow is now applied through a much smaller surface area. The same principle as poking someone with a sharpened pencil and poke someone with a broom handle. The hardness of the material only matters if there is give in it and it absorbs the impact and

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Can't really comment on this since I don't know the incident you where talking about. Wolverine's healing factor is in a slump a lot, and I tend to believe jinzin over you.

Did you even read EotS? He had multiple personalities in his head, several different voices of narration (white, tan, and green)... that where arguing with each other. Wolverine was trying to resist the mind control, he was trying to resist the moment he was activated inside SHIELD's Helicarrier. He even stopped what he was doing to save a woman who was being rapped. How can you possibly argue he wasn't trying to resist the mind control? That's absurd.


He's trying to confuse you.
He tried to state that Wolverine's HF was depleted to pre-Fatal Attractions levels because Wolverine said "Healing factor ain't what it's been in years" in Wolverine 62 (or was it 61?).
When I brought to his attention that Logan's comment didn't have any validity behind it and was just based on what Azrael told him MIGHT happen because he stated that before he even took any damage hence before he had to heal it. Zone conceded to the argument but here, Zone, took that and then saw you arguing for Wolverine being brainwashed in EOTS and fighting it. He then concluded that since Wolverine said that his healing factor was weaker than it has actually been in recent months, that Wolverine also has no credability to say he was fighting mind control. He fails to see the difference between a supposition based on what someone else tells you, and a factual statement made AFTER already trying to do something.


It takes a while but I think I'm almost fluent in Alfheim.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Jesus christ is right.. your arguments are getting sadder and sadder...

That's not even the worst of it. Not only are his arguments getting dumber, they're getting longer too.

I do find it amusing though. When it comes to Wolverine's defense, Battlehammer, Srank or myself he never "takes our word for it"... Even though we have scans, issue numbers or links of some sort to support our arguments 95% of the time. Even when he SEES the evidence he still robs it of any and all benefits of the doubt. "Well, that doesn't prove anything blah blah blah.."

But when he hears about Logan's HF being reduced.
Or thinks he sees Wolverine being taken down by a hail of bullets.
Or knew a guy who knew a guy who knows a guy who has a comic where Wolverine gets "beat" by someone like the Bushman or something, all the sudden we're finding ourselves having to outline half the 616 MU just to get him to shut up.

Even goofier is that he only does this with Wolverine and Wolverine related characters...

For instance:
Sabes vs. Conan

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
One dead Conan coming right up! Conan is so dead its unbelievable. The guy dies probably in several seconds or Sabre decides to take his time...........ouch.

*blocks out screams of pain*

Originally posted by Marvelknight
It's kinda hard, I'll have to go with Conan. I've seen him put down a dragon before. And he has a little over peak human strength. This man take on armies by him self; and like Sabretooth while engage in battle. Conan is very blood lusted and he also has a "berserker rage" that increases strength and it makes him resistance to pain.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ermmm wow. This is gonna be tough.

May stop at 3, considering he doesn't get to heal or have any rest time. Any damage that Bullseye or Punisher puts on him would soften him up for Shang Chi. If he gets past Shang Chi, Logan definitely does not get past 4, Iron Fist.

Originally posted by jinzin
He's trying to confuse you.
He tried to state that Wolverine's HF was depleted to pre-Fatal Attractions levels because Wolverine said "Healing factor ain't what it's been in years" in Wolverine 62 (or was it 61?).
When I brought to his attention that Logan's comment didn't have any validity behind it and was just based on what Azrael told him MIGHT happen because he stated that before he even took any damage hence before he had to heal it. Zone conceded to the argument but here, Zone, took that and then saw you arguing for Wolverine being brainwashed in EOTS and fighting it. He then concluded that since Wolverine said that his healing factor was weaker than it has actually been in recent months, that Wolverine also has no credability to say he was fighting mind control. He fails to see the difference between a supposition based on what someone else tells you, and a factual statement made AFTER already trying to do something.


It takes a while but I think I'm almost fluent in Alfheim. He's working on an oversimplification. Where by wolverine has no credibility in what he says. given his history with the character I'd say its intentional. He really doesn't seem to like wolverine and won't give him the slightest win *points to the hand ninja thing*

But yeah he doesn't get or is intentionally ignoring the difference between Wolverine trusting a "maybe" from another person, and a defintly from ones own first hand experience.

"If wolverine says it, it must be false."

Because you know, Alf loves to ignore context. which is of course strawman, red herring over simplificaton and a whole boatload of other logic rules violations... but eh, whatever helps his guy win I guess.

queesstion, iswolverine that muc hbetter tha nironfist, I thought ironfist was one o the better fighters in the marvel universe

Wolverine probably knows more styles than Iron Fist and probably is a better fighting tactician and perhaps better at improvising with his styles. It's possible that he's a better fighter, but he doesn't overmatch Iron Fist. No way. Iron Fist... boy. He's gotten better. Much, much better. Hard to say where he fits in since his fighting has been regulated to HYDRA goons, the Immortal Weapons and a speeding train. He did get one-shotted by Hiroim the Old-Strong. But that's hardly a low feat...

Iron Fist has a truck load more of raw damage out put and versatility, but in terms of pure martial skill, he isn't on the same level as Wolverine.

^ And what makes you believe that?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Iron Fist has a truck load more of raw damage out put and versatility, but in terms of pure martial skill, he isn't on the same level as Wolverine. I dunno, is there a section i nthe respect thread devoted t owolverines martial art talents? I know he's extremely good but ironfist is practically always training....but I dont know enough about ironfist to make that judgement

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ And what makes you believe that?

Danny's been beaten by Cat (he's also beaten him but still). Wolverine's owned Shang Chi. Danny was beaten by Jungo. Wolverine almost killed Jungo. Danny's stalemated Daredevil. Wolverine's put Daredevil in a full nelson in three panels.

^ Have any of those fights occurred after 'The Last Iron Fist Story' or 'The 7 Capital Cities of Heaven' storylines?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Have any of those fights occurred after 'The Last Iron Fist Story' or 'The 7 Capital Cities of Heaven' storylines?

Nope, but he didn't get a skill increase just even more power and versatility... which he already had in spades.

^ You're kidding me, right?

Besides, half the stuff you listed is taken completely out of context. Iron Fist was beaten by Cat when he was distracted. He wasn't beaten straight-up. Shang Chi may have been owned by Wolverine, but as a display of skill between Shang Chi and Elektra suggested, I doubt he would get so "owned" again:
http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vselektra1b3zx.jpg
http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vselektra1c7jm.jpg
http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vselektra1d2fe.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vselektra1e8gp.jpg

Who's Jungo? Did you mean Junzo? The guy that beat Iron Fist AFTER he stole Danny's power? Not to mention that the only evidence that Wolverine almost killed Junzo was from a 3rd party observation by depowered Danny and nowhere did I see Wolverine even tag Junzo once. I didn't cut off the last scan, mind you, this was taken from Jinzin's respect thread:
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6954/ironfistjuno2fs5.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2227/ironfistjuno7db5.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2128/ironfistjuno8nx0.jpg

Danny stalemated Daredevil trying to emulate DD's style to not blow his cover. Wolverine put DD in a full-nelson AFTER telling him that she was a third Typhoid Mary. Eminently arguable that Daredevil was confused at that point and not really fighting at that point in their conversation:
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/546/marvelcomicspresents151qe0.jpg

And considering that the following scans represent the only actual fight between Danny and Wolverine that I can recall... (an exhausted Danny, mind you), I'm still baffled by your suggestion that Wolverine is on a whole other level from Iron Fist:
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen070xc.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen085nz.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen094nr.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen106um.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen113wb.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen121zp.jpg

I know I won't change your mind, so no use in debating. I'm just showing everybody else what you're referring to and making my own opinions known. Other people can judge.

Logan does not get past 4.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And considering that the following scans represent the only actual fight between Danny and Wolverine that I can recall... (an exhausted Danny, mind you), I'm still baffled by your suggestion that Wolverine is on a whole other level from Iron Fist:
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen070xc.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen085nz.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen094nr.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen106um.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen113wb.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ironfist15enterthexmen121zp.jpg

I know I won't change your mind, so no use in debating. I'm just showing everybody else what you're referring to and making my own opinions known. Other people can judge.

Logan does not get past 4.

Neither of them were in tip top shape, Wolverine was still on a recovery bed when the X-Men were approaching Earth after having been punched into space by Jahf. I don't think he even had a healing factor written into his character by this point, nor his skill set for fighting ability for that matter.

Are you inclined to believe that Wolverine would fair as such in a rematch had it taken place even 5 years later? This was afterall far before Wolverine became the samurai/skill related character we came to know him as, and where it concerns popularity.. well he was new, and it was IF's comic.


In any event the only two things I'll say are this, Junzo managed to punk Iron Fist in straight h2h combat, twice. He didn't even use the iron fist except to intimidate Danny after already dropping him to the ground.
While it's true that the only thing we have to go off of is Danny's spectation of the fight to say Wolverine was winning, I'm inclined to believe him, Wolverine was pressing Junzo from start to finish, and had him resorting to his elemental control, at no point was Wolverine worried, nor was it implied in third person so I don't see how he wasn't winning that fight.

The only thing we really have to go off of to examine how a more current Wolverine would do with IF in something resembling h2h happened in that What If, and IF wasn't fairing so hot.

jinzin, wolverine was COMPLETELY outclassed in that fight. literally like a training dummy for IF. And IF stated on panel how bad of shape he was in, Wolverine didn't seem to be at all below peak form, he seems so eager too to take IF's punches, hardly something an injured or sickened wolverine would seek.

Without his adamantium, wouldn't Wolverine be crazy fast now without the weight of hundreds of pounds of metal?

Originally posted by Starscream M
jinzin, wolverine was COMPLETELY outclassed in that fight. literally like a training dummy for IF. And IF stated on panel how bad of shape he was in, Wolverine didn't seem to be at all below peak form, he seems so eager too to take IF's punches, hardly something an injured or sickened wolverine would seek.



You... didn't comprehend that post at all did you?

I didn't say that Wolverine didn't fair poorly.

And it's not up for debate, when the X-Men started heading home from the Shiar Wolverine had been punched hard enough to reach escape velocity, he didn't have a healing factor written into his character yet and it was a miracle he survived at all. Even if he's boasting about being able to take the punches of a "normal guy" that doesn't mean he was in good shape, far from it. It's called continuity. Just because Wolverine wasn't stated as being less than 100% doesn't mean he was, I'm guessing the Marvel staff assumed people would be reading X-Men books if they cared, since you know, Wolverine doesn't meander around in the Fang costume all the time.

Originally posted by MightyEInherjar
Without his adamantium, wouldn't Wolverine be crazy fast now without the weight of hundreds of pounds of metal? its not about that, again for all intents and purposes wolverine is human

Originally posted by jinzin
In any event the only two things I'll say are this, Junzo managed to punk Iron Fist in straight h2h combat, twice. He didn't even use the iron fist except to intimidate Danny after already dropping him to the ground.
What are you talking about? The first time Junzo "punks" a depowered Iron Fist, he used his elemental wind powers. Not only that, he even comments how Danny is allowing his emotions to get the best of him, since he's worried over Misty. The latter idea being equally potent in the "second punking," since this is after he was shown Misty's severed bionic arm:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/167/ironfistjunoga9.jpg
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6954/ironfistjuno2fs5.jpg
Originally posted by jinzin
While it's true that the only thing we have to go off of is Danny's spectation of the fight to say Wolverine was winning, I'm inclined to believe him, Wolverine was pressing Junzo from start to finish, and had him resorting to his elemental control, at no point was Wolverine worried, nor was it implied in third person so I don't see how he wasn't winning that fight.You see Wolverine winning this fight in these scans? Wolverine doesn't even touch him once:
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/906/ironfistjuno6im9.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2227/ironfistjuno7db5.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2128/ironfistjuno8nx0.jpg

And what actually happens during the cutoff and afterwards anyway? I'd like to see how the fight resolved itself.
Originally posted by jinzin
The only thing we really have to go off of to examine how a more current Wolverine would do with IF in something resembling h2h happened in that What If, and IF wasn't fairing so hot. Oh, here we go again with more non-canon ridiculousness. I know you inserted plenty of alternate universe Wolvie stuff in your respect thread, but on vs. debates, it's prohibited. So knock it off already. A more reasonable source to what would happen from a non-chi using Iron Fist going H2H against Wolverine would be the canon 616 on-panel fight where they ACTUALLY fought H2H and Danny was drained!

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What are you talking about? The first time Junzo "punks" a depowered Iron Fist, he used his elemental wind powers. Not only that, he even comments how Danny is allowing his emotions to get the best of him, since he's worried over Misty. The latter idea being equally potent in the "second punking," since this is after he was shown Misty's severed bionic arm:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/167/ironfistjunoga9.jpg
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6954/ironfistjuno2fs5.jpg
Junzo didn't have his elemental powers till after their scuffle.
He straight up tossed IF aside like a child. As for the arm.
That's another one of the reasons why Iron Fist might go down, for as much of a hothead as Wolverine is, Danny is repeatedly stated to be one as well. That's been something that's been commented on a few times. And Wolverine's a button pusher, the man learned from the best (Creed).

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You see Wolverine winning this fight in these scans? Wolverine doesn't even touch him once:
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/906/ironfistjuno6im9.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2227/ironfistjuno7db5.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2128/ironfistjuno8nx0.jpg

And what actually happens during the cutoff and afterwards anyway? I'd like to see how the fight resolved itself.
I see Wolverine putting Junzo completely on the defensive in spite of his powers (which at this point were extensive). And yes Wolverine does touch Junzo. Second page he has Junzo in a front lepel grab. Arguably punching claws through his shoulder (which would explain where that Iron Fist went the next panel they're seen fighting).
I see Wolverine backing someone up who tossed IF aside like a child. I see Wolverine convinced he can win, and I see Iron Fist stating that Wolverine's winning. Not much reason to suppose that he isn't.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Oh, here we go again with more non-canon ridiculousness. I know you inserted plenty of alternate universe Wolvie stuff in your respect thread, but on vs. debates, it's prohibited. So knock it off already. A more reasonable source to what would happen from a non-chi using Iron Fist going H2H against Wolverine would be the canon 616 on-panel fight where they ACTUALLY fought H2H and Danny was drained!

Hey, all I'm saying is that the What If comic has more relievence with both characters fully written out beforehand than the IF comic which happened before Wolverine got his powers OR skill set.
And while Fist may have been tired, Wolverine was not even NEAR 100% so talking up Danny's fatigue is meaningless.
It was a good fight for the time but hardly representative of Wolverine as we came to know more about him.

What If was.

So I'll ask again, do you think Wolverine would have faired NEARLY as poorly a second time around even half a decade later?

Originally posted by jinzin


You... didn't comprehend that post at all did you?

I didn't say that Wolverine didn't fair poorly.

And it's not up for debate, when the X-Men started heading home from the Shiar Wolverine had been punched hard enough to reach escape velocity, he didn't have a healing factor written into his character yet and it was a miracle he survived at all. Even if he's boasting about being able to take the punches of a "normal guy" that doesn't mean he was in good shape, far from it. It's called continuity. Just because Wolverine wasn't stated as being less than 100% doesn't mean he was, I'm guessing the Marvel staff assumed people would be reading X-Men books if they cared, since you know, Wolverine doesn't meander around in the Fang costume all the time. you're hopeless dood

just because Wolverine was injured previously, does not mean he was still injured when he faced IF. by the looks of it, he was as healthy as can be. you're seriously grasping...

many times a character would be injured in one issue, and fine the next. the writers assume readers don't have to be shown a scene of their healing every time.

Jinzin, What If? comics and alternate universes have ZERO relevance in vs. debates. Stop wasting thread space over it for goodness sake. You don't like the vs. forum rules, then petition them. Stop wasting everyone's time with alternate universe babble. The fact that you have to resort to alternate universes vs actual on-panel 616 fights is ridiculous. You have better arguments up your sleeves than that.

Wolverine managing to replicate Iron Fist completely depowered and distraught over Misty is not one of them.


And I don't see Junzo being stabbed in the shoulder. We could easily answer this question if you show everybody the scans of what happens with the rest of the fight where it's been cut off. If Junzo is standing there with a wound on his shoulder, there's no circumstantial theorizing necessary. Just post the rest of the fight.

Originally posted by Starscream M
you're hopeless dood

just because Wolverine was injured previously, does not mean he was still injured when he faced IF. by the looks of it, he was as healthy as can be. you're seriously grasping...

many times a character would be injured in one issue, and fine the next. the writers assume readers don't have to be shown a scene of their healing every time.

Yes because a man who doesn't have a healing factor written into his character can shrug off things like being punched into space, on a bed covered in bandages like a mummy, and just getting to walking around before they got back to earth.

Just more nonsensical robbing of the ben of the doubt from Wolverine.

HE WASN'T A HEALING FACTOR USING CHARACTER YET... Again reading comprehension ftw.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jinzin, What If? comics and alternate universes have ZERO relevance in vs. debates. Stop wasting thread space over it for goodness sake. You don't like the vs. forum rules, then petition them. Stop wasting everyone's time with alternate universe babble. The fact that you have to resort to alternate universes vs actual on-panel 616 fights is ridiculous. You have better arguments up your sleeves than that.
Perhaps you would like to elaborate as to why you feel that it has ZERO relivence here?

Little, perhaps. I could accept "little" but the fact is that there's numerous Exiles/one shot/alternate universe panels that describe various characters as being mirror images of their counterparts in all aspects (save morality, skin color, costume, etc etc). Zero though? Explain.
They're the same characters, same powers, same histories by all accounts, the only thing different is a divergence in the timeline after EOTS started.

Aside from losing to Wolverine did Iron Fist show that he was in some way less capible than his 616 counterpart?


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wolverine managing to replicate Iron Fist completely depowered and distraught over Misty is not one of them.

Iron Fist wasn't even aware of what Junzo had done to Misty til AFTER he tossed him aside. He wasn't lacking when it came to skill, he simply got handled even if emotions play into it, it's not like Wolverine's unfamiliar with playing head games.. .


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And I don't see Junzo being stabbed in the shoulder. We could easily answer this question if you show everybody the scans of what happens with the rest of the fight where it's been cut off. If Junzo is standing there with a wound on his shoulder, there's no circumstantial theorizing necessary. Just post the rest of the fight. I said arguable didn't I? What we do know is that Wolverine was able to get his hand within claw range for a stab, whether he did or not, was his perogative. At any rate, Wolverine did exponentially better against Junzo than Danny did. There isn't a rest of the fight, the City of KunLun had been raised in Paris, Junzo and Danny were directly linked to it, Danny got stabbed through the chest by his uncle, distracting Logan and Junzo from their fight. IF temporarily died....a..again. Kun Lun went away, Junzo took off, and that was that.

Originally posted by jinzin
Perhaps you would like to elaborate as to why you feel that it has ZERO relivence here?

Little, perhaps. I could accept "little" but the fact is that there's numerous Exiles/one shot/alternate universe panels that describe various characters as being mirror images of their counterparts in all aspects (save morality, skin color, costume, etc etc). Zero though? Explain.
They're the same characters, same powers, same histories by all accounts, the only thing different is a divergence in the timeline after EOTS started.

Aside from losing to Wolverine did Iron Fist show that he was in some way less capible than his 616 counterpart?Oh for pete's sake. Do I really have to talk to you like you're an idiot? Fine. Please direct yourself to the Forum Rules section and read this rule right here:

No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed.

And I'd still like to see scans of the rest of the Junzo fight. That way we can all see for ourselves whether Junzo was stabbed in the shoulder or not.

Originally posted by jinzin
Yes because a man who doesn't have a healing factor written into his character can shrug off things like being punched into space, on a bed covered in bandages like a mummy, and just getting to walking around before they got back to earth.

Just more nonsensical robbing of the ben of the doubt from Wolverine.

HE WASN'T A HEALING FACTOR USING CHARACTER YET... Again reading comprehension ftw. so, you've somehow deduced Wolverine was still injured despite him never being so eager to be knocked around

gee, that sure sounds logical...when people are injured, not only do they not rest, they talk shit and try to get their opponents to punch them in the face

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Oh for pete's sake. Do I really have to talk to you like you're an idiot? Fine. Please direct yourself to the Forum Rules section and read this rule right here:

No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed.

And I'd still like to see scans of the rest of the Junzo fight. That way we can all see for ourselves whether Junzo was stabbed in the shoulder or not. I know you can't see me because you have me on ignore... but seriously... the "what ifs" are alot more complicated than a simple dismissal out of sheer ignorance states.

Originally posted by Starscream M
so, you've somehow deduced Wolverine was still injured despite him never being so eager to be knocked around

gee, that sure sounds logical...when people are injured, not only do they not rest, they talk shit and try to get their opponents to punch them in the face If you actually knew what logic was you wouldn't try to apply it to a fictional characters actions. Logic is not an all binding universal law. Nor is it always applicable to a persons behavior and or actions. Especially when emotions are involved.

Originally posted by Starscream M
so, you've somehow deduced Wolverine was still injured despite him never being so eager to be knocked around

gee, that sure sounds logical...when people are injured, not only do they not rest, they talk shit and try to get their opponents to punch them in the face

Wolverine jumped right back up to fight WWH after getting brain damaged and pwned.... You're going to tell me he'd be inclined NOT to fight back when he thought Jean Grey was in trouble...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Oh for pete's sake. Do I really have to talk to you like you're an idiot? Fine. Please direct yourself to the Forum Rules section and read this rule right here:

No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed.

And I'd still like to see scans of the rest of the Junzo fight. That way we can all see for ourselves whether Junzo was stabbed in the shoulder or not.

Sorry if I'm not inclined to rush out to get scans for someone who thinks they need to be so insulting to me.

I'm an idiot, right.... and yet you failed to do anything but be a little ***** about this when I asked you what made it so invalid as evidence in the first place.
The rules also state there are exceptions, yet gives no specifications as to what they are, so it's left up to our discretion. Now if What If EOTS was ignoring common sense, or power sets on either of the characters that'd be one thing, but it wasn't. If it was giving them powers they don't have in 616 that'd be another thing, but it wasn't.
It holds far more weight in a discussion about who would win between the two than that fight did when Wolverine wasn't even a developed character yet.
It's as representative of how Wolverine would perform as Black Cat beating Sabretooth is for Sabes.

We could just ignore that completely, Wolverine still has multiple feats beaten people who are unquestionably Rand's superior in skill, Ogun, Stick, or his equal in Shang Chi.

Originally posted by jinzin
Sorry if I'm not inclined to rush out to get scans for someone who thinks they need to be so insulting to me.

I'm an idiot, right.... and yet you failed to do anything but be a little ***** about this when I asked you what made it so invalid as evidence in the first place.
The rules also state there are exceptions, yet gives no specifications as to what they are, so it's left up to our discretion. Now if What If EOTS was ignoring common sense, or power sets on either of the characters that'd be one thing, but it wasn't. If it was giving them powers they don't have in 616 that'd be another thing, but it wasn't.
It holds far more weight in a discussion about who would win between the two than that fight did when Wolverine wasn't even a developed character yet.
It's as representative of how Wolverine would perform as Black Cat beating Sabretooth is for Sabes.

We could just ignore that completely, Wolverine still has multiple feats beaten people who are unquestionably Rand's superior in skill, Ogun, Stick, or his equal in Shang Chi.

1. The rules state blantantly that What Ifs are not allowed.
2. Even if you're going to use it as evidence it doesnt prove that Wolverine is better at H2H he beat Cap by using his adamantuim claws.
3. The whole bloody reason why What Ifs are not allowed because sometimes characters do things they are not supposed to be able to do, for example Wolverine putting his claws through Caps shield.
4. Some people dont have a problem with non canon sources but as stated already its against the rules and posters are therefore in their right mind to reject it so stop making excuses.

Originally posted by jinzin
Yes because a man who doesn't have a healing factor written into his character can shrug off things like being punched into space, on a bed covered in bandages like a mummy, and just getting to walking around before they got back to earth.

Just more nonsensical robbing of the ben of the doubt from Wolverine.

HE WASN'T A HEALING FACTOR USING CHARACTER YET... Again reading comprehension ftw.

Interestingly enough you use that excuse even now. Wolverines been incinerated to the skeleton and then taken on Janus and Namor and it hardly affected his ability to perform but everytime Wolverine gets hurt in a comic you start moaning about how his HF was depleted.

Hell it might be a good excuse this time but I don't know. Anyway I hope somebody can post what happened before. At any rate Wolverien didnt seem that bad IF wasnt in top shape either, you dont have any proof that Wolverine beating IF.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine is more likely to take Cap down then vica versa?

Er pove it?


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

He did roll with the punch. That's why he didn't take any knock back an Blade was pinned in the next panel.

I think you are confused (not totally out of character for you) about what you have issue with. I think you are mad that I said that it is possible that Wolverine wasn't even hit at all (which it is), not that that he rolled with the momentum... as any skilled fighter would.

Spin around really fast. Video tap it. Watch said tape in super slow motion. Your face will look like that. Physics.

I cant be assed to arge with you.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Racist jokes?

Forget it.



Originally posted by srankmissingnin

In your opinion 10 - 15 of operating with his claws, supersedes more than 80 years of operating with out them. That doesn't make a lick of sense. 15 years is a ripple in the lake of Wolverine's life, it is no time at all relatively speaking.

Yes it does, let me explain again. Wolverine may have lots of experience in other martial arts but since hes been using his claws mostly for 10-15 years its going to hinder his ability in other martial arts because obvoulsy he needs to keep training in those other martial arts to keep up his skill.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Every fight against someone without a healing factor? Wolverine uses his fists all the time in conjunction with his healing factor.

Wolverine uses his claws most of the time and its not the samething is punching.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Can't really comment on this since I don't know the incident you where talking about. Wolverine's healing factor is in a slump a lot, and I tend to believe jinzin over you.

The point is just because he said something doesnt make it true and since thats jinzins opinion you can agree with me because you agree with everything he says.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Did you even read EotS? He had multiple personalities in his head, several different voices of narration (white, tan, and green)... that where arguing with each other. Wolverine was trying to resist the mind control, he was trying to resist the moment he was activated inside SHIELD's Helicarrier. He even stopped what he was doing to save a woman who was being rapped. How can you possibly argue he wasn't trying to resist the mind control? That's absurd.

Common sense.

1. Those different boxes dont represnt voices in his head but what hes thinking
2. He was resisting mind control but there is no proof that he was resisting it when he fought DD

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Exactly. He said he may or may not kill him because it was up to Wolverine's discretion. The plan was to draw Elektra into the open and distract Daredevil while Gorgon took her down. Daredevil was nothing more than a distraction, whether or not Wolverine brought him down didn't matter. It wasn't his mission to do it... but I can't imagine Hydra would have carried either way.

If Wolverine was intent on killing Matt, don't you think he would have done it? He had him dead to rights when he first stormed Matt's apartment, but talked with him instead of popping his claws. Now why would he do this? Because he was waiting for Elektra to show up. Matt didn't matter.

Daredevil was meant to be a distraction if DD put up too much of a fight he was too be killed. Initially he put the fist to his head he obvoulsy wasnt trying to kill him, that changed when he put up resistance.



Originally posted by srankmissingnin

I'm asking you if you think it is more surprising / distracting to find out that someone with Dissociative Identity Disorder has developed a new personality (I know, shocking right? :rolleyes, or to get completely blinded sided by a diveboming vigilante?.

Irrelevant.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin



ZOMG! He said "What???" My mistake, he WAS distracted!!!!



Duhhhhhh. That means he was suprised and jinzin has used that same excuse when Wolverine was fighting silver samurai. Now obvoulsy if that were Wolverine saying that and jinzin said that Wolverine was suprised you would agree with it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

How many times did you say "what" in this post I am quoting? I'm I to take you saying "what" as a sign that my amazing debating skills have spun your little brain for a loop and completely dumbfounded you? And all your responses after that have keen typed in the haste of a shocked mind?

Yeah your way too smart.



Originally posted by srankmissingnin

He's also been humiliated by Daredevil and admitted that he can't even beat Bucky. If I really need to explain to you why Punisher hanging with Wolverine is PIS, then a honestly suggest you go get a CAT scan.

Er when has he been humiliated by DD? There were circumstance to it if it did happen but im sure you wont listen to anything I say. Even if he has been humiliated by DD and admitted he couldnt beat Bucky that doesnt negate all his other good showings against DD, hes also beaten up Bullseyes twice.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

...

Pretty straight forward sentence... not sure what has confused you.



...

...

...


Im probably wondering what the significance of it was.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Why? Have you ever been around a child? They throw tantrums. They hit people. Why bother to evade the bunch of a little girl? Wolverine didn't know she had superstrength. Do you think Wolverine is concerned with the potential damage output of an 11 year old girl to bother dodging it?

Please use common sense?

Yes you had better use common sense. Thats why he turned up with Cap and Iron Man and thats why Wolverine stated that she was dangerous.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

He hit Moonknight once. Moonknight hit him once. Not exactly humiliation...

Again.....Wolverine had the advtange over an inferior fighter he ended up looking bad. The point is that he had the advantage.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

So far we have this.

Wolverine let an 11 year old girl punch him...

Er he didn't let her punch him stop twisting things around.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Wolverine was hit once by Moonknight... then went on to fight other people since he was in a massive free for all.

he didn't hit him he threw him. Whole bloody point was that Wolverine had the advantage.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Black Panther managed to toss him...

Nothing particularly embarrassing there.

and on anothet ocassion was too fast for him...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Black dodged one attack. Went into hiding. Realised Wolverine could locate him. Attacked Wolverine. Got pinned.

Read the blasted thing again.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Black Panther knew that Wolverine wasn't messing around right after he dodged the first attack and went into hiding. It was only after this that he attacked Wolverine.

WRONG! Read the fight again and stop trying to twist things around.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

He only managed to walk away because Wolverine got distracted by Grimm.

That was when he realised that Wolverine wasnt messing when he got pinned...it was too late to get serious.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Are you talking about jinzin's theory that Wolverine's healing factor's speed has a direct correlation with adrenaline, that being why cheap shots have more effect than punches sustained in the heat of battle?


Not really no.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Nope. Wolverine took a single hit right before he "killed" Shingen. It was a none lethal blow, Shingen's sword hit him in the eye. Pretty impressive considering that Shingen's lacky (the Silver Samurai) has managed to two shot Spider-man.

Post the scan up and lets see. It could damn well be argued that if he did not have an adamantuim skull it would have gone into his brain. Also even if it wasnt lethal Wolverines resistance to pain is much less, I saw his eyes it was ****ed up.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Everyone has embarassed the Hand. They are fodder, it is the sole reason the exisit.

Lol did you see how I pointed out that Wolverine got embarrased by the Hand , then you ignored and focused on tha fact that everybodies embarrased the Hand?

Wolverine got embarrsed by the hand!!!!!!


Originally posted by srankmissingnin




I've responded to your post, and what was you counter post? Nothing. You ignored everything I said and posted your original post again worded differently. You are a joke and you are grasping at straws.

The only points I have not responded to are the points were I dont even understand why you're bringing them up.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Nice job digging that up. /golfclap

... Now how about you show the page before that scan - you know - the one I was actually talking about?

You get it! Its irrelevant, he was pissed off at the point were he got struck but your point was that a pissed off Wonder Man going beserk is trying to avoid being dodged.......ssssssstretch.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

He got one shotted. Whether or not he intended to fight back is irrelevant, that ship sailed when he was knocked out with a single punch.


Not going to argue with you, its subjective.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin

*sigh*

Once again. The damage of the knuckle duster comes from the fact that the force of the blow is now applied through a much smaller surface area. The same principle as poking someone with a sharpened pencil and poke someone with a broom handle. The hardness of the material only matters if there is give in it and it absorbs the impact and

Whatever anyway the adamantuim makes Wolverines blows harder.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
1. The rules state blantantly that What Ifs are not allowed.
2. Even if you're going to use it as evidence it doesnt prove that Wolverine is better at H2H he beat Cap by using his adamantuim claws.
3. The whole bloody reason why What Ifs are not allowed because sometimes characters do things they are not supposed to be able to do, for example Wolverine putting his claws through Caps shield.
4. Some people dont have a problem with non canon sources but as stated already its against the rules and posters are therefore in their right mind to reject it so stop making excuses.

1. It says there's exceptions and leaves that open to debate what those exceptions are.
2. This has nothing to do with Cap.
3. Which had nothing to do with Iron Fist.
4. refer to one.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Interestingly enough you use that excuse even now. Wolverines been incinerated to the skeleton and then taken on Janus and Namor and it hardly affected his ability to perform but everytime Wolverine gets hurt in a comic you start moaning about how his HF was depleted.

Hell it might be a good excuse this time but I don't know. Anyway I hope somebody can post what happened before. At any rate Wolverien didnt seem that bad IF wasnt in top shape either, you dont have any proof that Wolverine beating IF. Wrong, even the Atlantean chick commented on how Wolverine didn't look like he wasn't doing so hot. And his ability to fight has nothing to do with his ability to heal jackass.
And you're right, you don't know. you never do.

Sure I do, IF and Shang Chi said they were equals back in heroes for hire. Wolverine curbed Shang Chi.
Iron Fist and Daredevil have gone toe to toe with no superior several times, Wolverine fended off stick who tought Daredevil, he scored an advantage over DD, and he backed DD into a corner while fighting mind control.
Iron Fist has done worse in h2h combat against Sabretooth than Wolverine has (since Sabretooth was developed, or Wolverine was for that matter)
Wolverine did monumentally better against Junzo than IF hoped to do.
Wolverine's been more successful than Iron Fist against Spiderman.
Been more successful against Cap than IF.
Wolverine's a level 7 Iron Fist is a level 6.
Wolverine thinks IF is an ameteur.
Zaran thought Wolverine and Cap were better targets to go after than anyone else after losing to Chi including Chi's equal IF.

Now if you think all of that doesn't matter one bit because they had a fight back in Logan's 20th appearance before he had fighting skills an healing factor, or a history then that's your perogative, and your ignorance.

"Whenever you bring up good points, or point out my endless sutpidity to the point I can't defend myself, I simply "can't be assed" to argue with you... whatever the hell that means."

"Wolverine got embarrassed by the Hand, doesn't matter that it was actually Shingen who did it, or that there was poison involved... And who cares if Punisher has low showings he has high showings that override those.. But Wolverine's majority of high showings are PIS compared to his low showings, the guy got embarrased by the Hand, in a circumstantial free comic, that never actually got printed... So what if they run away from him but not Shang Chi, so what if he's killed 2000 of them in one battle... low feats are his standard.. SO SAYS THE ZONE!"

LMAO "It's irrelivent that Wolverine was trying to track down his former lover who may or may not have been trying to set him up, it's irrelievent that DD divebombed him from three stories up to start off the fight, the fact that Wolverine full nelsoned him is totally irrelivent to his fighting skill DD said what for cryin out loud, not like he's got any skill, discipline, or radar sense."

"Wolverine always fights little girls he considers dangerous, which is why he went all out on X-23 the first time they met... wait no, it's why he went all out on Stacy X the first time they fought.. wait no... it's why he went all out on Marrow the first time they fought.. wait no.... well.. he likes fighting little 11 year olds, and he should have been prepared.... to fight a child... with the avengers there... during an intervention... in a church....."

LOL "Wolverine would have had his head chopped to pieces without an Adamantium skull in the Shingen fight. Doesn't matter that the ONLY damage was done, was a slice to his eye on his eye and only his eye, his Adamantium skull helped him uber loads... "

"Wolverine was so not under the influence of several minds in his head, it's not like they're were contradictory thought boxes or anything, not like Wolverine did things to show he was fighting mind control, not like he stated it later, and even if he did, the guy has no credability, he said his HF ain't what it's been in years because a higher power said it might not be so great and that's totally the same as making a statement about what you've already done."

"Moonknight flipped Wolverine in one panel, what total PWNAGE!"

Without his claws? (the thread is stated as he doesn't have his "Healing factor nor his Adamantium skeleton" but, doesn't take away his actual claws (Bone claws).

With Bone claws stops at Cap #7
Without any claws stops at Shang Chi #3

Originally posted by jinzin
1. It says there's exceptions and leaves that open to debate what those exceptions are.


For Godsake.........

Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

We dont know what those rare exceptions are do we? But we do know that it mentions What If and it says they are exempt, so obvoulsy its best to leave them out but no doubt your going to try and squeeze it in.



Originally posted by jinzin

2. This has nothing to do with Cap.
3. Which had nothing to do with Iron Fist.
4. refer to one.


2. It does but im not going to explain why.
3. Didn't say it was.
4. If you have a non-canon source and the people in it have very similar powersets to the 616 counterparts, then it could be used......but since its stated in the RULES that they are exempt then any poster is in there right mind to reject it. Cant be bothered to think of one but im pretty sure I could if I tried hard enough.


Originally posted by jinzin


Wrong, even the Atlantean chick commented on how Wolverine didn't look like he wasn't doing so hot. And his ability to fight has nothing to do with his ability to heal jackass.
And you're right, you don't know. you never do.

Even if that were the case IF wasnt in top shape either. Er yeah it does when Wolverine got blasted by Cyclops he was falling all over the place and then Cap Koed him. So if hes sustained an injury that sveraly depeletes his Hf its going to affect his stamina.

Id like to see the scan of that.

Originally posted by jinzin

Sure I do, IF and Shang Chi said they were equals back in heroes for hire. Wolverine curbed Shang Chi.

How many times have Shang Chi and Wolverine fought? So you're going to assume that would happen the second time? Hell Wolverine did just about as well as Shang Chi has against Zaran

Originally posted by jinzin

Iron Fist and Daredevil have gone toe to toe with no superior several times, Wolverine fended off stick who tought Daredevil,

Lol he fended off Stick who wasnt even trying to serioulsy hurt Wolverine....that doesnt prove that his better than DD.

Originally posted by jinzin

he scored an advantage over DD, and he backed DD into a corner while fighting mind control.

He wasnt fighting any bloody mind control and dont tell me that he said he was. Hell Wolverine said his Hf was worse didnt take his word for it then did you?

Originally posted by jinzin

Iron Fist has done worse in h2h combat against Sabretooth than Wolverine has (since Sabretooth was developed, or Wolverine was for that matter)

and Sabrettoth has given Wolverine hell even before his upgrade.....even if i were to give you that one IF has done well against DD and as far as im conmcerned DD is gonna kick his ass.

Originally posted by jinzin

Wolverine did monumentally better against Junzo than IF hoped to do.

Junzo stated that IF was letting his emotions get the better of him...thats why. Read it properly.

Originally posted by jinzin

Wolverine's been more successful than Iron Fist against Spiderman..

and in most of those cases he used his HF and claws to help him.

Originally posted by jinzin

Been more successful against Cap than IF.

Er he still had his claws if he didnt have his claws he wouldnt have won. I did state that there were no claws on this thread.

Originally posted by jinzin

Wolverine's a level 7 Iron Fist is a level 6.

Yeah so is Punisher still held his own against him for abit while injured

Originally posted by jinzin

Wolverine thinks IF is an ameteur.

So what?

Originally posted by jinzin

Zaran thought Wolverine and Cap were better targets to go after than anyone else after losing to Chi including Chi's equal IF.

Not going to cut it with that.

Originally posted by The Illuminati
Without his claws? (the thread is stated as he doesn't have his "Healing factor nor his Adamantium skeleton" but, doesn't take away his actual claws (Bone claws).

With Bone claws stops at Cap #7
Without any claws stops at Shang Chi #3

He has no claws in this thread.

Originally posted by jinzin
"Whenever you bring up good points, or point out my endless sutpidity to the point I can't defend myself, I simply "can't be assed" to argue with you... whatever the hell that means."

Ok so you tell me what was so great about what he said?

Originally posted by jinzin

"Wolverine got embarrassed by the Hand, doesn't matter that it was actually Shingen who did it, or that there was poison involved...

Again common sense.

1. Shingen hires the Hand to be his bodyguards he does not do it himself.
2. Shingen is a smug arrognat basterd hes not going to posion Wolverine and then carry his ass
3. Wolverine stated that is he hadnt had adamantuim bones the Hand would have chopped his arm off.


Originally posted by jinzin


And who cares if Punisher has low showings he has high showings that override those.. But Wolverine's majority of high showings are PIS


Not neccesarily but beatng Cap when hes starving and sleep deprived is a low showing for Cap, beating Shang Chi in 3 panels is a low showing for Shang Chi.


Originally posted by jinzin

compared to his low showings, the guy got embarrased by the Hand, in a circumstantial free comic, that never actually got printed... So what if they run away from him but not Shang Chi,

Er HF and claws...that makes him more dangerous.

Originally posted by jinzin


so what if he's killed 2000 of them in one battle... low feats are his standard.. SO SAYS THE ZONE!"

let me guess thats the issue where he used the Sentinel for backup?

Originally posted by jinzin


LMAO "It's irrelivent that Wolverine was trying to track down his former lover who may or may not have been trying to set him up, it's irrelievent that DD divebombed him from three stories up to start off the fight, the fact that Wolverine full nelsoned him is totally irrelivent to his fighting skill DD said what for cryin out loud, not like he's got any skill, discipline, or radar sense."

Its not relevant because that example doesnt prove that DD is superior to Wolverine either.

Originally posted by jinzin


"Wolverine always fights little girls he considers dangerous, which is why he went all out on X-23 the first time they met... wait no, it's why he went all out on Stacy X the first time they fought.. wait no... it's why he went all out on Marrow the first time they fought.. wait no.... well.. he likes fighting little 11 year olds, and he should have been prepared.... to fight a child... with the avengers there... during an intervention... in a church....."

The point is that he knew she was dangerous and he allowed himself to get chucked. If you actually read what Wolverine said he was highly embarrased. He didnt want that to happen.


Originally posted by jinzin


LOL "Wolverine would have had his head chopped to pieces without an Adamantium skull in the Shingen fight. Doesn't matter that the ONLY damage was done, was a slice to his eye on his eye and only his eye, his Adamantium skull helped him uber loads... "

When his Hf is gone his resistance to pain is much less...did you see how he reacted when he got stabbed in the foot without his HF? You just dont listen do you, I already explained this. What the hell you think Wolverines gonna do without his HF if his eye gets ****ed up?

Originally posted by jinzin


"Wolverine was so not under the influence of several minds in his head, it's not like they're were contradictory thought boxes or anything, not like Wolverine did things to show he was fighting mind control, not like he stated it later, and even if he did, the guy has no credability, he said his HF ain't what it's been in years because a higher power said it might not be so great and that's totally the same as making a statement about what you've already done."

1. Square boxes do not indicate voices in the head. I can show you lots of comics with a person with square boxes, that doesnt mean he has voices in his head.....that his THOUGHTS.
2. Apart from him saying he was fighting his mindcontrol what evidence was there that he was doing that? It could damn well be argued he had a gulity mind since there is no other evidence im prettys sure if it was in your interest you would debate that his HF was reduced. Just because somebody says they did something doesnt make it true unless there is other proof.

Hell Wolverine said he brought DD along to see if Crossbones was lying. Wolverine said it that makes it true......oh no it doesn't.

Originally posted by jinzin

"Moonknight flipped Wolverine in one panel, what total PWNAGE!"

Again common sense. Im not saying Mk would ahve won the fight the whole bloody point is that Wolverine had the advantage and MK is supposed to be an inferior fighter.....uhhhhhh

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
For Godsake.........

Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

We dont know what those rare exceptions are do we? But we do know that it mentions What If and it says they are exempt, so obvoulsy its best to leave them out but no doubt your going to try and squeeze it in. maybe you should underline the part where it says there's exceptions. It's funny, I don't even think that's be-all/end-all evidence for IF vs. Wolverine, all I did was bring it up as food for thought and you and OneDumb are throwing PMS fit about it.

The rules say there's exceptions doesn't say what they are, so lest you feel like proving these characters were vastly different than 616 kindly shut up.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
2. It does but im not going to explain why.
3. Didn't say it was.
4. If you have a non-canon source and the people in it have very similar powersets to the 616 counterparts, then it could be used......but since its stated in the RULES that they are exempt then any poster is in there right mind to reject it. Cant be bothered to think of one but im pretty sure I could if I tried hard enough.
2. It doesn't, you're a fool.
3. Then why bring it up? Cause you're a fool.
4. You're admitting it can be used and telling me I shouldn't use it. You're a fool.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Even if that were the case IF wasnt in top shape either. Er yeah it does when Wolverine got blasted by Cyclops he was falling all over the place and then Cap Koed him. So if hes sustained an injury that sveraly depeletes his Hf its going to affect his stamina.
No shit doofus, the reason why I brought up that Wolverine was in a crappy sitch was because IF supporters felt so inclined to keep repeating that he wasn't himself like it was a big deal. You're running in circles like a clown.

Horrible example, but I expect no more from a fool. How is Cap cheap shotting Logan from behind even close to being a reflection of his fighting skill being hindered by a weakened HF? And there's a difference between being more susceptable to being effected by attacks from a weakened HF and being hindered in fighting ability because of current injuries. But you wouldn't know that since you're a fool.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Id like to see the scan of that.

It's during the fight with Janus and even pointed out in the respect thread... Fool.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
How many times have Shang Chi and Wolverine fought? So you're going to assume that would happen the second time? Hell Wolverine did just about as well as Shang Chi has against Zaran
Wolverine was drugged vs. Zaran and still kicking ass. I assume that Shang would lose yes. maybe not as bad, but still lose. You assume that Wolverine's going to fair poor AGAINST EVERYONE so don't give me that crap.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Lol he fended off Stick who wasnt even trying to serioulsy hurt Wolverine....that doesnt prove that his better than DD. Point me to someone else who's done better.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He wasnt fighting any bloody mind control and dont tell me that he said he was. Hell Wolverine said his Hf was worse didnt take his word for it then did you?
There's a mass difference between Wolverine taking a higher powers word for something and estimating his abilities based off what they told him before he has a chance to find out, and saying that he did something AFTER doing it...


5. DO YOU OR DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE IN CONTEXT?
If you do not, it's because you're a fool.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and Sabrettoth has given Wolverine hell even before his upgrade.....even if i were to give you that one IF has done well against DD and as far as im conmcerned DD is gonna kick his ass.

As far as you're concerned DD is gonna kick his butt eh?
Yeah that's using common sense.

IF has never scored an advantage over DD, Wolverine has.. twice.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Junzo stated that IF was letting his emotions get the better of him...thats why. Read it properly.

When you BEGIN to understand fundementals like context maybe then you can give me a lecture on reading....

So he did the first time.. And the second?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and in most of those cases he used his HF and claws to help him. And IF used his chi and traps.. still did piss poor.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er he still had his claws if he didnt have his claws he wouldnt have won. I did state that there were no claws on this thread.
Cap had his shield.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah so is Punisher still held his own against him for abit while injured
Wasn't injured.
Ambushed Logan
A bit being several seconds.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So what?
...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Not going to cut it with that. Well nothing ever does does it fool?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok so you tell me what was so great about what he said? It was enough to shut you up.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again common sense.

1. Shingen hires the Hand to be his bodyguards he does not do it himself.
2. Shingen is a smug arrognat basterd hes not going to posion Wolverine and then carry his ass
3. Wolverine stated that is he hadnt had adamantuim bones the Hand would have chopped his arm off.
Coming from the master of Kotex.. er I meant context. The guy was in the middle of a conversation with Mariko. He wasn't in a fight, it's hardly embarassment.
I can't remember the second example you're referring to so you'll have to give me an issue number.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Not neccesarily but beatng Cap when hes starving and sleep deprived is a low showing for Cap, beating Shang Chi in 3 panels is a low showing for Shang Chi.
No it wasn't they're mirror equals, having ANY healing factor gives him an advantage. putting him into a berserker rage gives him an advantage.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er HF and claws...that makes him more dangerous.
Than a guy who can amp his chi to hurt Thing with his fists? Enough to just up and run away, if you say so.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
let me guess thats the issue where he used the Sentinel for backup?
Sentinal wasn't there when he was inside their complex and he didn't take one hit.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its not relevant because that example doesnt prove that DD is superior to Wolverine either.

So an example's only relievent when it proves someone's superior to Wolverine?
Thank you for inadvertantly showing just how bias you in fact ARE.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The point is that he knew she was dangerous and he allowed himself to get chucked. If you actually read what Wolverine said he was highly embarrased. He didnt want that to happen.
of course he was embarrased, but it has no relivence to his fighting ability he wasn't there for a fight with a child.

Unless:
Wolverine>Vision
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/...arbirdd3jk8.jpg

Wolverine> Moonknight
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/...arbirdd4cv2.jpg

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
When his Hf is gone his resistance to pain is much less...did you see how he reacted when he got stabbed in the foot without his HF? You just dont listen do you, I already explained this. What the hell you think Wolverines gonna do without his HF if his eye gets ****ed up?

No it isn't. He was in pain sure, but his HF DOES NOT NEGATE THE EFFECTS OF PAIN.. I don't know how many times Wolverine has had to say this. It simply does not. Even with that foot injury and a handful of others, Wolverine was giving all hell to Dathstrike, Omega Red and then later Sabretooth.

There's so many examples that apply to Wolverine where his HF does nothig for his pain tolerance it's not even funny and you ignoring that only shows just how foolish you can be.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
1. Square boxes do not indicate voices in the head. I can show you lots of comics with a person with square boxes, that doesnt mean he has voices in his head.....that his THOUGHTS. They do when they are contradicting themselves and talking TO Wolverine in the 2n'd person.
Hell they're even colored different for special kids like yourself.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
2. Apart from him saying he was fighting his mindcontrol what evidence was there that he was doing that? It could damn well be argued he had a gulity mind since there is no other evidence im prettys sure if it was in your interest you would debate that his HF was reduced. Just because somebody says they did something doesnt make it true unless there is other proof.

The fact that he was saving women from being raped, petting puppies, and flat out told the voices he didn't want to do what they were telling him to.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hell Wolverine said he brought DD along to see if Crossbones was lying. Wolverine said it that makes it true......oh no it doesn't.

He DID bring him along to tell the truth, he jst also happened to possibly need a lawyer.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again common sense. Im not saying Mk would ahve won the fight the whole bloody point is that Wolverine had the advantage and MK is supposed to be an inferior fighter.....uhhhhhh
Common sense should tell you that managing to sholder throw a guy once after he strikes you isn't embarassment, but I guess you "can't be assed" to figure that one out either can ya chump? er champ.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
For Godsake.........

Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

We dont know what those rare exceptions are do we? But we do know that it mentions What If and it says they are exempt, so obvoulsy its best to leave them out but no doubt your going to try and squeeze it in. You want to play the emphasis game? Here:










"Oh we don't know what they are so we can't even begin tryiong to fathom what they could be! they cant' have anything to do with logical reasoning because logic is bad as it stands in the way of my guy winning! so we'd best commit the ad ignr=orantiam fallacy and not try to use any!" <- You = Fail

Originally posted by jinzin
maybe you should underline the part where it says there's exceptions. It's funny, I don't even think that's be-all/end-all evidence for IF vs. Wolverine, all I did was bring it up as food for thought and you and OneDumb are throwing PMS fit about it.

The rules say there's exceptions doesn't say what they are, so lest you feel like proving these characters were vastly different than 616 kindly shut up.Throwing a PMS fit? Dood. It's not relevant! You want to know what the exceptions are? When you're dealing with characters like the Living Tribunal, who is constant throughout all Marvel alternate universes! The exceptions do not apply to an alternate Wolverine, smartass! If you ventured outside of street levels and Wolverine-land, you'd have figured that out by now. I don't have to prove those characters were vastly different than the 616 characters at all! We DON'T use alternate universes as evidence! It's in the friggin rules, black as letter. You want to make a thread where alternate universes are good, that's fine. You want to ask the mods whether you should be allowed to waste everyone's time regarding an alternate universe, go right ahead. Until then, "What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character."

I mean, do you use the Grey Hulk snapping Wolverine's neck in an alternate universe as evidence that Wolverine can be killed by snapping his neck? Do you have to prove to everyone that the alternate Wolverine was vastly different from 616 Wolverine? No? Then shut up and sit down.

Don't use double standards on me, you YOURSELF friggin argued against non-canon sources plenty of times to know the rules. Get your self-serving double-standard bs logic outta here, son. And stop wasting everyone's time and diverting the subject from Iron Fist straight-up embarassing Wolverine's tuckus ON-PANEL.

this is just a silly thread to begin with... closed, for spite.