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Darth Bane and Darth Zannah vs. Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tin, and Mace Windu ( Team Sent to arrest Palpatine)

1. Sabre Duel
2. Force
3. All Out

Location- Tython (where bane and zannah fought team of jedi in ROT)

Well, we haven't yet seen Zannah at her peak, but Bane calculates her potential to be even higher than his own, and she has shown remarkable abilities in ROT.

However, adding Mace Windu makes this a hundred times more difficult for the pair.



EDIT: And what's up with the Zannah threads?

With Mace here, the team is pretty assured a win.

If it's Mace and Agen on Bane with Kit and Saesee on Zannah, she's going to die sine neither suck like Johun...

Either way, it's pretty hard for the pair.

Lt. would you mind making me a sig?

mace who is confirmed by GL to be on par with palp?
teamed up with 3 decent jedi masteres?
are you serious dude??????

the sith die here they might take fisto with them but the die horribly.

vaapad didnt exist at this time so they wont adjust in enough time to mace's style so he after a decent battle whoops bane.

kit, agen, and saesee would tire zannah out enough for mace to come back and finish her once he is done his 13 minute duel with bane

Bane and Zannah die. The way I see it, Mace will go up against Bane, and Kolar, Fisto, and Tiin will go out against Zannah- seeing as she is no where near as good as Sidious in lightsaber combat, she won't be able to hold them off and will promptly be curbstomped. All are some of the order's greatest swordbeings, not really Johuns.

Mace vs. Bane can really go either way- Bane will crush him in a force fight, but Mace, I believe, can take a saber match, virtue of his shatterpoint ability and his Vaapad's superconducting loop, enabling him to go on the defensive and strike at the percise moment, to lop off Bane's hand or disarm him. But Bane could very possibly defeat him- and if he will, it will be with extreme difficulty.

The trio have already curbstomped Zannah at the time. They go up against Bane all together, and defeat him.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Bane and Zannah die. The way I see it, Mace will go up against Bane, and Kolar, Fisto, and Tiin will go out against Zannah- seeing as she is no where near as good as Sidious in lightsaber combat, she won't be able to hold them off and will promptly be curbstomped. All are some of the order's greatest swordbeings, not really Johuns.
Realistically, her modified saberstaff Soresu - which kept her alive against a ticked off Bane for a decent amount of time - should hold them off for quite a while - certainly long enough for Bane to wheel away from Mace as he did with Raskta and launch a Force assault on the weaker Jedi Masters. Considering his Force-pushes demolish buildings and camps and pulverize humans, and his lightning reduces its victims to ashes and rips through the defenses of exceptional Jedi Masters, they wouldn't stand a chance.

1] The Jedi, although it'd be a ridiculous fight and not all of them are walking away.

2] The Sith, with pitiful ease.

3] Could go either way, but I'm banking on the duo if they fight smart. It all comes down to Bane wheeling away from Mace just long enough to utterly demolish the other Jedi via his titanic Force attacks, leaving Zannah to mop up with whoever is left, and then help Bane take on Windu. If Bane gets trapped by Mace - which is unlikely, because there're a total of three places on his body that Mace can actually hit with any effect - the Jedi could take it.

Seriously, stop teaming Mace up with these goons. Give him Kas'im, or something.

Slight issue with the Zannah issue there Faunus:
Zannah's Soresu kept her alive with Sarro and Johun only because Johun was a worthless idiot and Sarro couldn't slaughter her thanks to that. Two Jedi like Agen and Kit on her, both master swordsmen, experienced veterans accustomed to working together? That doesn't look good for Zannah.

And it'd be interesting if the other three are on Bane while Mace rips through Zannah like a wet paper bag in three seconds...and Mace has a hell of an advantage: He is more experienced a fighter than Bane, and has the physical strength to keep Bane from overpowering him, plus a totally unfamiliar style.

and Force wise, I do see do see Mace's defense being at the least, competent enough to survive what Bane can throw at him...he's likely more powerful than Farfalla by a good margin

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Slight issue with the Zannah issue there Faunus:
Zannah's Soresu kept her alive with Sarro and Johun only because Johun was a worthless idiot and Sarro couldn't slaughter her thanks to that. Two Jedi like Agen and Kit on her, both master swordsmen, experienced veterans accustomed to working together? That doesn't look good for Zannah.

And it'd be interesting if the other three are on Bane while Mace rips through Zannah like a wet paper bag in three seconds...and Mace has a hell of an advantage: He is more experienced a fighter than Bane, and has the physical strength to keep Bane from overpowering him, plus a totally unfamiliar style.Agreed. Like I said: the Sith could take this is they play it smart, but Mace's presence makes it rather unlikely.

I don't see him stopping Force-lightning with his bare hands.

Well, it would be more likely for Fisto, Saesse, and Kolar to team up against Zannah and quickly destroy her, while Mace takes Bane. The three masters would make quick work of her and then team up with Mace against Bane.

If not, they would split into two groups of two: Windu & Kolar against Bane, Fisto & Saesse against Zannah. It would definitely be a fight interesting to watch.

I don't see him stopping Force-lightning with his bare hands.

Do you see him using his blade along with Vaapad to shoot it back at Bane, like he did with Sidious?

I don't think that Bane, unless alone, grounded and unarmed would keep Ligthning going for so long as Palpatine did, at least not enough to incapacitate him.

Originally posted by Faunus
Agreed. Like I said: the Sith could take this is they play it smart, but Mace's presence makes it rather unlikely.
That works

Did Farfalla ever do that?
I recall Raskta deflect it when he blasted at Farfalla with her sabers, but Farfalla deflecting lightning barehanded?

I meant in a Force-only fight.

And Farfalla tried to put up a barrier to defend against the lightning, he wasn't using a lightsaber and obviously wasn't capable of defending against Bane's assault with his bare hands.

Originally posted by Faunus
I meant in a Force-only fight.

And Farfalla tried to put up a barrier to defend against the lightning, he wasn't using a lightsaber and obviously wasn't capable of defending against Bane's assault with his bare hands.

Farfalla put up a Force barrier, but Bane's lightning blasted right through it. I got the impression that it wasn't even slowed down.

yeah nice strategey in thoery for the jedi team to win... but in thoery this same team should have destroyed palpatine.. mace should have been a good match on his own, and then with the other 3 it should have Sidious shuldnt have stood a chance..

fact is if bane pulls a sidious here, and kills 3 of them before Mace can hardly even react, then the sith double team Mace and the sith win. if those 3 jedis are called the b- team when going up against Sidious then i dnt see how theyll be much more competition for Bane.

They're heralded as 'great' in the novel, which also provided an appropriately badass sequence that has Palpatine dispatch Saesee and Agen before dueling Mace and Kit.

Lucas is a dumbass.

The only person who called the trio 'The B Team' was asking Lucas about them...Lucas promptly dispelled that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The only person who called the trio 'The B Team' was asking Lucas about them...Lucas promptly dispelled that.

yes and he sed the reason was they culdnt compete with sidious.. so whats makes you think they wuld be able to compete against bane?

Originally posted by Faunus
They're heralded as 'great' in the novel, which also provided an appropriately badass sequence that has Palpatine dispatch Saesee and Agen before dueling Mace and Kit.


isnt that what hapeened in the movie as well??

The novel had a considerably more badass way of displaying their deaths. Meh. They should've let some uber stuntsmen do the work for the Sidious vs. Mace fight- I mean, we're talking about some of the fastest duelists in history here. Instead, we get two old men going at it while using cool CGI tricks (though, kudos to Ian McDiarmid. He did an excellent job for a men his age- much better than Samuel mada****in' Jackson).

Sidious vs. The Posse was, overall, the worst fight in the prequels. Though I forgive RotS for displaying that, because Sidious vs. Yoda and Anakin vs. Obi-Wan are the best dueling sequences in Star Wars history. xD

And Faunus, we cannot let Lucas' incompetence get in the way of our debate- otherwise, I can go off and say Mace is a slow moron because of the way they depicted him in the movie.

True. It's just that I'm actually a huge fan of the depictions of Sidious in Sithisis, the RotS novel, and Shadow Hunter, but the movies, DE, and certain overzealous EU authors tarnish that image considerably.

Oh, Sidious was great in most of RotS- in no small part due to Ian McDiarmid's performance. His fight with Yoda was one of the best- I really like how Lucas decided to make the lightsaber duel between them even better than the fight between Dooku and Yoda. One of the fastest lightsaber duels in memory. Great stuff, really. The only bad thing I can say about Sidious in the RotS movie is, indeed, the fight between Mace and him.

His depictions in the RotS novel was incredibly awesome. 'Specially his fight with Mace- which, I might add, was the best fight in the novel. Sithisis was incredible.

DE can go to hell for all that I care, along with most of the post-RotJ works. It sucks. After watching RotS and RotJ, it seriously pissed me off that the Sith still survive after Anakin kill Sidious- it cheapens his struggle and the movies and general. Therefore, I ignore them completely most of the time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes and he sed the reason was they culdnt compete with sidious.. so whats makes you think they wuld be able to compete against bane?

the whole point of Bane's order was: The Apprentice would always become more powerful than his master and kill the master. Logic leads to a hard to believe, but (imagine this!) logical conclusion: Bane is the weakest of his order by his OWN DESIGN. Sidious is the most powerful of that order by BANE'S OWN DESIGN. We receive nothing in novelization, or in movies, or games, or ANYTHING else to tell us any differently, so until we find out for sure that Zannah in her prime isn't more powerful than Bane in his prime, we have to assume that his order worked correctly in a Bane<Zannah<Zannah's apprentice<.....<Plageious<Sidious sort of way.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes and he sed the reason was they culdnt compete with sidious.. so whats makes you think they wuld be able to compete against bane?

That doesn't work; Sidious is more powerful and more skilled than Bane.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, Sidious was great in most of RotS- in no small part due to Ian McDiarmid's performance. His fight with Yoda was one of the best- I really like how Lucas decided to make the lightsaber duel between them even better than the fight between Dooku and Yoda. One of the fastest lightsaber duels in memory. Great stuff, really. The only bad thing I can say about Sidious in the RotS movie is, indeed, the fight between Mace and him.Sidious' expressions made me want to tear my eyes out, but the part where he discusses the nature of the Dark side with Anakin was solid, as was the little dialogue before that pathetic duel with Mace.
Worse, they're not even good characters. Krayt is unique at least, but Caedus is a horrendous waste of a decent character.

Originally posted by truejedi
we have to assume that his order worked correctly in a Bane<Zannah<Zannah's apprentice<.....<Plageious<Sidious sort of way.No, we don't. Sidious killed his master in his sleep. Zannah, as she revealed in RoT, was trying to convince Bane to rid himself of the orbalisks all along, as she suspected it would make killing him an easier task.

The Sith of Bane's order are smart - they don't have to be more powerful or more skilled in combat than their masters to kill them, and it would make no sense at all for there to be a Force-user available to each successive generation that equaled or exceeded Bane in terms of potential. Palpatine was, essentially, the physical manifestation of everything the Sith Order had valued. The smartest, the strongest, and the most ambitious.

Sidious' expresions in his fight against Yoda were ridiculous, aside from the laughter. That was awesome. Sidious at his best, really. Though I may be biased- seeing as RotS was my favorite Star Wars movie, and shall remain that forever. All of the characters came at their best- oh, except for Padme. She was horrendous in RotS. Anywayz- Sidious' exaggerrated performance, while ridiculous at times, was, overall, satisfactory- as was his fight with Yoda, that was totally thrilling and badass.

Caedus is an Anakin ripoff. Luke is the stupidest character in Star Wars. Han and Leia survivng makes me want to cut my wrists. For me, Star Wars ended after RotJ- and I won't be reading any more post RotJ-novels. Why spoil the name of Star Wars?

I'll definitely check out Stover's upcoming novel on Luke, but the rest can burn.

The Darth Caedus character was actually retarded. From the fluctuations in power levels, to acquiring random techniques magically, the authors did a piss poor job developing his character properly.

It's a real shame Thrawn got killed off. He and Han were the only two characters who I actually like who survived post RotJ- and now, Thrawn's dead, and Han is annoying.

Stover is, hands down, one of the best Star Wars authors yet- Timothy Zahn ain't bad either, tho. His novels are quite good.

It's been a while... Wow, Gideon changed his avatar and now wears a signature!?

Who's the one responsible for this atrocity? That's just sooo not-Gideon-ish. Oh, well. How's it been around here?

The problem with the Legacy of the Force series is that it did not give us a truly formidable villain; the authors, rather than make Caedus a cunning or clever individual, decided (at the last minute) to cram him with all sorts of esoteric powers and abilities -- including the shatterpoint charism -- in an attempt to nullify his apparently overwhelming stupidity. That and the murders of Gilad Pellaeon and Mara Jade Skywalker were absolutely unnecessary; you only kill of two characters like that if their deaths mean something. The series was utter shit, so they died for nothing. Incidentally, they were the two most interesting characters alive at that point. I would have preferred that Leia died. Han and Leia are too old and too weak to be anything other than support, they need to be relegated to sideline duty or political action.

What we need is a novel (I'll settle for a comic series... even though I despise comics) concerning Vergere's supposed allegiance to the Sith, studying of Count Dooku, attempted murder of Darth Sidious, and her subsequent failure and retreat into the Unknown Regions.

That would be awesome.

Indeed.

And welcome back, Mandalore.

Btw, I'm the one responsible for such atrocity.

I'd want a friggin' Sidious/Plaguis novel. That would be unlimited coolness.

If there's not gonna be a KOTOR 3, I would love a freakin' KOTOR 3 novel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I'd want a friggin' Sidious/Plaguis novel. That would be unlimited coolness. Luceno was supposed to write one, but it was dropped in favor of Luke's novel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I'd want a friggin' Sidious/Plaguis novel. That would be unlimited coolness.

As much as I like Luceno, I wouldn't want him to write it. The dude who wrote DR would have to do it, or Matthew Stover.

-_-

That sucks ASS. Sidious and Plagueis are far more interesting characters than Luke "Overused" Skywalker. But I guess they don't want another Bane/Zannah-like series. I think that an excellent part of a Plaguies/Sidious novel is detailing the circumstances of Anakin's death and, perhaps, fleshing out Sidious' background. Maybe give him a reason for the intense hatred for the Jedi, other than simply being a Sith?

Oh, and Luceno is decent- but he's not the best Star Wars author around. I'd personally let Stover or Zahn handle a potential Plagueis novel- they can both make characters more interesting than Luceno.

Edit: LOL, me and Gideon said practically the same thing at the same time. I didn't even notice his post.

And how was Dark Rendezvous? I hadn't read it yet.

DR was pretty good. I actually like the CW-era novels a lot less than I used to, and prefer the RotS novel almost entirely. Weird, since I used to hate it with a burning passion.

And I'm interested in seeing Stover's take on Luke Skywalker - Traitor was the only decent NJO novel, sans the end of TUF, and he's definitely the best EU author around at the moment.

As for the Plagueis/Sidious novel, I would hate to see Palpatine turned into any sort of 'victim' character, and certainly don't want to learn too much about his younger years. Plagueis would be cool, but Sidious' apprenticeship shouldn't be explored too deeply, IMO.

It's part of his mystery, I guess.

So far, Revenge of the Sith was the most emotionally charged, thrilling EU novel I've read- but we can't credit that entirely to Stover, as Lucas did, after all, write the story of said novel. If I was to make a comparison of the novel vs. the movie, the novel would win on some points- such as it's depiction of the the badassness of Mace Windu, something that movie utterly failed to portray, and the way it made Dooku. I hated how he was killed so early, so pointlessly in the movie- the novel made him, somehow... more significant.

Also, since we are already completely off-topic and discussing Star Wars material, I'd like to ask a question- what's your favorite Star Wars movie? It always makes me rather interested to ask this question. The consensus seems to be Empire Strikes Back, but for me, it's the RotS Movie, which I find to be possibly the best piece of Star Wars around- while it's not exactly a perfect movie, it's about as good as Star Wars can get. Aside from being appropriately fast-paced and actually doing a surprisingly good job of showing the relationship between Anakin and Padme, it also has some of the best action sequences ever on film. The Jedi's death was, in my opinion, believable- that face Mundi made before he died just etches in my memory whenever I think 'RotS', lolz.

I rest my case. What's your opinions?

As a kid, I always the hated the sad endings, so Return of the Jedi took the cake. But now, I'd have to say Revenge of the Sith was the most entertaining and satisfying of the six. Dark as hell, insane action sequences, great CGI, and at some points actually sad.

Of course, it had some glaring flaws - ignoring the fact that Obi-Wan's lightsaber casts a shadow in the the duel with Dooku (minor, but a WTF moment for me), some of the dialogue was hideous. 'Hold me, Ani!'

Hell, even Ewan had a bad scene when Anakin departed for his 'glorious day with the politicians.' McDiarmid's face in the Mace duel was pretty much vomit-inducing, and the duel itself was pathetic. Like, ANH duel pathetic.

That said, I was pleased with the handling of Anakin's descent into darkness, and the new Vader's slaughter of the Jedi and the Separatist council was awesome (in a sick kind of way). Of course, Anakin vs. Obi-Wan was one of the best action scenes I've ever seen, both in dramatic content and plain fury, and Kenobi's breakdown at the end was much deserved and well-executed.

I agree on all points. Obi-Wan, in his scenes with the council, wasn't very interesting- however, Obi-Wan still remains my favorite Jedi of all time, thanks mainly to him displaying emotion. And wit. My god, "Not to worry. We're still flying half a ship." was classic. His scenes with Anakin were phenomenal- of worth mentioning are three scenes. The scene when he tells Anakin that the Chancellor is suspect- that moment was plainly eerie, for some reason... great score, great emotion. Great acting, too. The second is when Obi-Wan departs to kill GG- I mean, you know it's the last time they see each other, and their dialoge at that point is pure sad. Third is, of course, Obi-Wan's "You were the chosen one!". Saddest, most dramatic scene in Star Wars history. Absolutely sad.

In addition, Palpatine and Anakin had some amazing scenes- namely, the scene when he reveals himself to be Darth Sidious... that was, amazing. And the scene in the 'opera'. Amazing, too. It occured to me that many fans dislike how Vader was suddenly made more complex, less mysterious- on the contrary, in my opinion. In the OT, Vader was, for me, a badass Sith. But that's it. After the PT, he became one of the most amazing, believable Sith in history for me, and watching things like ESB suddenly takes a whole new meaning.

RotJ would actually rank pretty low in my tastes, actually. My least favorite Star Wars movie- INCLUDING the Jar-Jar tale. The ewoks were damned annoying, and it honestly seemed kiddy... and stupid. The only great thing I can say about is the final scene on the Death Star- Anakin's redemption, and Palpatine's death.

If I had to make a list of best to worst Star Wars movies:

1. Revenge of the Sith
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. Attack of the Clones and a New Hope (tie)
4. The Phantom Menace
5. Return of the Jedi

Originally posted by Gideon
The problem with the Legacy of the Force series is that it did not give us a truly formidable villain; the authors, rather than make Caedus a cunning or clever individual, decided (at the last minute) to cram him with all sorts of esoteric powers and abilities -- including the shatterpoint charism -- in an attempt to nullify his apparently overwhelming stupidity. That and the murders of Gilad Pellaeon and Mara Jade Skywalker were absolutely unnecessary; you only kill of two characters like that if their deaths mean something. The series was utter shit, so they died for nothing. Incidentally, they were the two most interesting characters alive at that point. I would have preferred that Leia died. Han and Leia are too old and too weak to be anything other than support, they need to be relegated to sideline duty or political action.

What we need is a novel (I'll settle for a comic series... even though I despise comics) concerning Vergere's supposed allegiance to the Sith, studying of Count Dooku, attempted murder of Darth Sidious, and her subsequent failure and retreat into the Unknown Regions.

That would make for one hell of a book. Get writing.

Originally posted by Faunus
As a kid, I always the hated the sad endings, so Return of the Jedi took the cake. But now, I'd have to say Revenge of the Sith was the most entertaining and satisfying of the six. Dark as hell, insane action sequences, great CGI, and at some points actually sad.

Of course, it had some glaring flaws - ignoring the fact that Obi-Wan's lightsaber casts a shadow in the the duel with Dooku (minor, but a WTF moment for me), some of the dialogue was hideous. 'Hold me, Ani!'

Hell, even Ewan had a bad scene when Anakin departed for his 'glorious day with the politicians.' McDiarmid's face in the Mace duel was pretty much vomit-inducing, and the duel itself was pathetic. Like, ANH duel pathetic.

That said, I was pleased with the handling of Anakin's descent into darkness, and the new Vader's slaughter of the Jedi and the Separatist council was awesome (in a sick kind of way). Of course, Anakin vs. Obi-Wan was one of the best action scenes I've ever seen, both in dramatic content and plain fury, and Kenobi's breakdown at the end was much deserved and well-executed.

You liked anakin's descent towards darkness? You mean the whole 30 seconds it took for him to get there?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You liked anakin's descent towards darkness? You mean the whole 30 seconds it took for him to get there?

No. It took him one and a half movies- the entirety of AotC and half of RotS. You see Anakin getting conflicted in the movie, being seducted by Palpatine- man, the guy has understandable- if selfish- motives for turning into the big meanie. Put yourself in his shoes. He feels everyone is holding him back, afraid of his power. Thanks to his friend the Chancellor, he gradually loses trust of the Jedi, eventually coming to the belief that they betrayed him. This is only helped by the fact that Palpatine constantly reassured and encouraged his power, while the Council did the opposite. Preventing him mastership, sending Obi-Wan to kill Grievous. Not to mention to top it off with how useless they are regarding words of advice to help save Padme, Anakin's forbidden wife, who he now believes is certainly going to die. And he can't really bear that, eh? And in the moment, he has to chose- the Jedi, big assholes who are trying to betray the republic and can't stop going off about how one shouldn't have any emotion and love, or the ability to save his wife from dying- and the man who was, along with Obi-Wan, his father figure. Unlike Obi-Wan, however, Palpatine never had a bad word to say about Anakin, making sure he had his affection all along.

See, the most unbelievable thing is that Anakin constantly thought he was doing the good thing. Saving his wife, ensuring security to the world- by taking a new 'take-charge' attitude, namely massacring anyone who stands in his way- and preventing the Republic from being taken over by the Jedi.

Sorry. I really can't see how Anakin's descent to the dark side was handled in '30 seconds'.

Luceno's Cloak of Deception is better than Labyrinth of Evil, a first-rate political thriller. He managed to portray the tragedy of Finis Valorum and Palpatine's manipulation of both him, the Jedi, and the whole Trade Federation directorate. So he certainly writes Palpatine well as a schemer, but the gentleman who wrote Dark Rendezvous managed to capture a tortured and twisted Count Dooku and an extremely psychologically vicious Palpatine, while not losing the extraordinary scheming capability. And pure evil is more than just "cold and scheming".

Dark Rendezvous is as good as the RotS novelization.

Awesome. Gonna get to reading it.

And Gideon- what is your favorite Star Wars movie? Faunus and I both agree that it's RotS.

ROTS was my favorite movie too.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Awesome. Gonna get to reading it.

And Gideon- what is your favorite Star Wars movie? Faunus and I both agree that it's RotS.

I like them all. Though I've seen AotC the most, and so I find it the most boring. And the podrace/Tatooine scenes in TPM were leeching in nature.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
No. It took him one and a half movies- the entirety of AotC and half of RotS. You see Anakin getting conflicted in the movie, being seducted by Palpatine- man, the guy has understandable- if selfish- motives for turning into the big meanie. Put yourself in his shoes. He feels everyone is holding him back, afraid of his power. Thanks to his friend the Chancellor, he gradually loses trust of the Jedi, eventually coming to the belief that they betrayed him. This is only helped by the fact that Palpatine constantly reassured and encouraged his power, while the Council did the opposite. Preventing him mastership, sending Obi-Wan to kill Grievous. Not to mention to top it off with how useless they are regarding words of advice to help save Padme, Anakin's forbidden wife, who he now believes is certainly going to die. And he can't really bear that, eh? And in the moment, he has to chose- the Jedi, big assholes who are trying to betray the republic and can't stop going off about how one shouldn't have any emotion and love, or the ability to save his wife from dying- and the man who was, along with Obi-Wan, his father figure. Unlike Obi-Wan, however, Palpatine never had a bad word to say about Anakin, making sure he had his affection all along.

See, the most unbelievable thing is that Anakin constantly thought he was doing the good thing. Saving his wife, ensuring security to the world- by taking a new 'take-charge' attitude, namely massacring anyone who stands in his way- and preventing the Republic from being taken over by the Jedi.

Sorry. I really can't see how Anakin's descent to the dark side was handled in '30 seconds'. All of what you said is true, but imagine yourself as someone who appreciates the movies, but doesn't classify as a nerd. You know, someone who only watches the movies once or twice a year. That's how I personally determine the value in the films. Anakin's fall happened virtually instantaneously. He was all gung-ho about the "Jedi way" one moment and literally the next is agreeing to wiping out "every single Jedi, including your friend (father-figure, brother etc.) Obi-Wan Kenobi."

Most of us have discussed this and agree that the novelization's expansion makes for a much more believable descent. Palpatine actually took the time to sit and talk with Anakin before he informed Mace. He wanted Master-level to access to the holocrons in the novel, but sounded like a child in the film. There wasn't enough depth to the backstory of his fall.

Throw in a few pieces of stupid or silly-looking acting, and you've got a general audience who views the film as "a great sci-fi flick, but still pales compared to the OT."

But you're right about RoTJ, I would just add the space battle as one of its few highlights.

Wow, I haven't actually seen the movies in quite a while... My brother watches them the whole time, though.

Originally posted by Tangible God
All of what you said is true, but imagine yourself as someone who appreciates the movies, but doesn't classify as a nerd. You know, someone who only watches the movies once or twice a year. That's how I personally determine the value in the films. Anakin's fall happened virtually instantaneously. He was all gung-ho about the "Jedi way" one moment and literally the next is agreeing to wiping out "every single Jedi, including your friend (father-figure, brother etc.) Obi-Wan Kenobi."

Most of us have discussed this and agree that the novelization's expansion makes for a much more believable descent. Palpatine actually took the time to sit and talk with Anakin before he informed Mace. He wanted Master-level to access to the holocrons in the novel, but sounded like a child in the film. There wasn't enough depth to the backstory of his fall.

Throw in a few pieces of stupid or silly-looking acting, and you've got a general audience who views the film as "a great sci-fi flick, but still pales compared to the OT."

But you're right about RoTJ, I would just add the space battle as one of its few highlights.

Oh, I dunno. I actually think Hayden Christensen did a good job (!) of portraying Anakin's descent to the darkness. The dialoge was actually pretty good at these parts- I mean, yeah. One has to look a little more in-depth to see the full nature of Anakin's fall.

The novel obviously goes more in-depth, but it's a novel. What can you expect? It's also an awesome novel, at that. I have viewed the movie and novel as, overall, equal in quality most of the times.

And the general audience, from what I've seen, actually like the PT more thanks to its superior special effects and, overall, more accessible nature. I don't agree with that philosophy- although I actually think that PT and the OT are equal in equality.

I think a huge part of the reason that the OT is so much more popular among die hard fans is due to the fact that people can into the theaters expecting to be disappointed. They looked so carefully for all of the dialoge, acting, and such that they forgot to enjoy the movie- and have already decided, upon entrance, that nothing can compare to the Original Trilogy. Meh. That ruins the movies. And I gotta say that, all in all, I was highly satisfied by the Prequels.

I was highly satisfied by every f*ckin' SW movie. Yeah, even ROTJ and TPM.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, I dunno. I actually think Hayden Christensen did a good job (!) of portraying Anakin's descent to the darkness. The dialoge was actually pretty good at these parts- I mean, yeah. One has to look a little more in-depth to see the full nature of Anakin's fall.

The novel obviously goes more in-depth, but it's a novel. What can you expect? It's also an awesome novel, at that. I have viewed the movie and novel as, overall, equal in quality most of the times.

And the general audience, from what I've seen, actually like the PT more thanks to its superior special effects and, overall, more accessible nature. I don't agree with that philosophy- although I actually think that PT and the OT are equal in equality.

I think a huge part of the reason that the OT is so much more popular among die hard fans is due to the fact that people can into the theaters expecting to be disappointed. They looked so carefully for all of the dialoge, acting, and such that they forgot to enjoy the movie- and have already decided, upon entrance, that nothing can compare to the Original Trilogy. Meh. That ruins the movies. And I gotta say that, all in all, I was highly satisfied by the Prequels. Lol, I was just watching AOTC on TV earlier and said to my friend that Hayden actually does a bang-up job with Anakin, it's what Lucas tells him to do that makes some parts seem low-caliber.

But yeah, the regular, non-nerd movie goer (the ones that actually know how to critique a movie, and not focus on the special effects) tend to complain about the lack of character analysis. It's a 2 and a 1/2 hour movie, I know you can only fit so much in--- but crikey it's a little sad that everyone agrees the book of the movie is held in higher esteem than the movie itself. Narration offers a lot I know, but the movie could have fit in more for Anakin's character. The general consensus is that his movie-incarnation is a whiny b*tch who got blindsided, whereas his novel-self is someone you can truly sympathize with and understand.

Oh, I dunno. I don't feel the novel to be superior at all to the novel- 'sides, you gotta look at some of the benefits of movies. Thrilling, intense action, dazzling visuals, acting, and an overall more engaging- if not quite as detailed an experience. I really don't think his movie self is annoying; I mean, in TPM, he was likeable. In AotC, I wanted to kill him. In the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, he was seriously a nice Jedi. For example; his conversation with Obi-Wan, him apologzing to him... sorry, lolz, I don't think someone needs to scream out something- like it is in the novel- for it to be understandable; Anakin became evil because of good reasons. Ironic, really.

Oh, and don't get me wrong- I like all Star Wars movies. But RotJ is simply, in my opinion, the worst one.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, I dunno. I don't feel the novel to be superior at all to the novel- 'sides, you gotta look at some of the benefits of movies. Thrilling, intense action, dazzling visuals, acting, and an overall more engaging- if not quite as detailed an experience. I really don't think his movie self is annoying; I mean, in TPM, he was likeable. In AotC, I wanted to kill him. In the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, he was seriously a nice Jedi. For example; his conversation with Obi-Wan, him apologzing to him... sorry, lolz, I don't think someone needs to scream out something- like it is in the novel- for it to be understandable; Anakin became evil because of good reasons. Ironic, really.

Oh, and don't get me wrong- I like all Star Wars movies. But RotJ is simply, in my opinion, the worst one. Lol, well I gotta say, you're part of a minority.

Heh. Let's ask people's opinions, eh? xD

Well, personally I did like Anakins fall and didn't like ROTJ as much as ROTS. I thought it was alright though.
What I really hated was Lando's outfit. You can't rule a country dressed like That!!!
Jerk.
'Set my Jabberwocky on you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Slight issue with the Zannah issue there Faunus:
Zannah's Soresu kept her alive with Sarro and Johun only because Johun was a worthless idiot and Sarro couldn't slaughter her thanks to that. Two Jedi like Agen and Kit on her, both master swordsmen, experienced veterans accustomed to working together? That doesn't look good for Zannah.


'Trying desperately to wrestle thread back on-topic.'

Not exactly. While Johun's presence did work heavily to Zannah's advantage, she was able to fend off Sarro for a good amount of time when it was just one-on-one.

Now I agree that between them those guys could beat her, but they won't just cut her down like wheat.

All three of them are superior to Sarro and accomplished to fight in conjunction. How can Zannah take them on for any real amount of time together? She only survived so long to Johun.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
All three of them are superior to Sarro and accomplished to fight in conjunction. How can Zannah take them on for any real amount of time together? She only survived so long to Johun.

Nope, it was stated that Zannah could have killed Johun anytime. She deliberately left him alive because she realised that he was a bigger hindrance to his ally than he was to her.

And are they really superior to Sarro? I'm sure each of them was better in experience, overall Force power/ability etc, but Sarro was trained by seemingly the best duellist of their era (which was a lot more battle-oriented than the PT era). At the time Sarro was trained there were legions of Sith, so Jedi training would have included a lot more focus on lightsabre to lightsabre combat. By the time of the PT, Jedi almost exclusively focus on lightsabres for deflecting blasterfire.

Sure those guys are better Jedi, but are they better fighters? Heck, it is stated in the book that Raskta and Sarro focused almost entirely on combat ability, this left them vulnerable to Bane and Zannah's Force attacks/Sith sorcery. Would those guys really have focused that much on fighting ability alone?

I'd easily put Sarro (BM powered) above any of the three. The Jedi of his time were trained primarily to fight against opposing Force Users and lightsaber practitioners, and once their training was over, that's exactly what they did. They fought almost constantly in the most destructive war there had ever been, and likely ever will be, almost exclusively against lightsaber wielding Darksiders, with the end result of the war amounting to the survivors being better trained, battle hardened, and Sith-ready than nearly any other group of Jedi before or after them. Then of course there's the fact that the Jedi were described as vastly outnumbering the Sith, who were described as numbering in the 20,000s, whereas the PT Jedi were officially numbered just under ten thousand around the time of The Phantom Menace.

In other words, the Jedi Order of Sarro's time was far better trained and battle hardened than the Jedi Order of the PT times, far more specialised at fighting against other Force users and Lightsaber practitioners, and on top of that, were numbered far higher as well, and Sarro appears to have been one of the better Jedi of the time.

His ability with his double bladed lightsaber was highly renowned within his Order, to the point where it was believed that few beings in the Galaxy would be able to stand up against him in combat. He was described as being well over 2 metres tall with 150 kilos of raw muscle, yet still quick enough to "snatch a zess-fly out of the air." His technique was described as being more refined than Bane's (in obvious awe), and he was described as having elevated the art of combat to its purest and highest form, moving with the grace of a dancer, and executing his moves with "a perfect elegance born of obsession."

Lastly, there's the fact that he was being powered up by the focused effects of a talented Master of Battle Meditation, to such an extent that Farfalla, someone who was receiving the exact same benefits, was in absolute awe of how much quicker and stronger it made him, and Johun, someone who was, again, receiving the same benefits, noted the effects of no longer being powered up by the meditation as "a wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelm him," and "his strength and energy plummet."

Really, the fact that he was able to contend with Zannah in the first place alone speaks highly for his ability, at least under the BMd conditions, given the fact that her strength in the Force was believed to have been a good notch above Darth Bane's, her instinctive link to the dark side was stated to rival his, and she had been training and learning Sith Magic for ten years. Really, she'd logically be at a level of ability - both with a lightsaber and the Force - somewhere in between Bane's PoD and Ro2 incarnations. It doesn't matter that she hasn't yet displayed as much, her potential and instinctive grasp of the Force as well as the fact that she's been learning Sith Magic directly from Nadd's holocron, and training for a longer period of time (than his PoD incarnation) would dictate as much.

This is, after all, the same Zannah, who when untrained, was capable of some of the most impressive instinctive displays of the Force ever, such as protecting herself, and the area and Bouncers around her from the BoD's Force Storm, and snapping the necks of two Jedi. After ten years of learning Sith Magic directly from the holocron of Freedon Nadd, she's clearly going to be a force to be reckoned.

I got to ask you Nebaris, how long do you think Sarro could last vs Zannah without the aid of BM and no Johun to get in the way and the same situation for Sarro vs Bane. This is one character that I hope is featured in more New Sith Wars EU.

How are you, Nebaris?

We know you think anyone who fought Bane or is relevant to your argument is automatically superior to the opposition. But the fact of the matter is- the trio are highly formidable Jedi and duelists in their own right.

Agen Kolar was hailed as one of the greatest bladesbeings in the history of the Jedi Order- yes, a Jedi order that contained the likes of Raskta- and was capable of completely outclassing Quinlan Vos, a uniquely talented Jedi, in blade-to-blade combat. He was also trusted, and co-worked with Mace Windu, the same guy who was called one of the deadliest Jedi in history, invented an 'unconventionally lethal' form and had mastered most- if not all- forms.

Kit was also held in exceptionally high esteem by many, knowledgable Jedi Masters and was described as being superior to AotC Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat. In fact, the quote- I believe- says that Obi-Wan 'quickly realized' that Kit was superior. This implies that Fisto was completely outclassing him- and remind yourself that this is the same Obi-Wan who, just over 10 years previously, managed to knock Darth Maul- someone who was a high level master of multiple forms and was one of the deadliest apprentices in history- on his ass and cut his weapon in half.

Seasee was reputed to be one of the best bladesbeings in the Jedi Order's history (supported by Shaak Ti and Obi-Wan Kenobi, knowledgable and formidable Jedi Masters on their own right), and was good enough a pilot to impress Anakin Skywalker- arguably the best pilot in the history of the galaxy. In order to truly be an excellent Jedi pilot, it suggests that Tiin possessed a unique attunement to the force, and had great mastery over it.

I don't think it's a question so much of how long he'd last, considering Zannah's Soresu mindset, but more so just whether or not he'd actually pose any semblance of a threat whatsoever, in which case I don't think so without the benefits of BM. At least not to the point where he'd be able to prevent her from breaking out of close combat and directing her sorcery at him. As for Bane, I personally don't think any of the Jedi would have lasted long at all against him without the beneficial effects of BM. Even BM powered, in a two-on-one situation, Farfalla didn't believe that he or Raskta stood a chance against him, believing Bane to be too powerful for both of them, and feeling that they needed reinforcements, and it's made extremely clear that Farfalla would have been defeated in moments without the beneficial effects of BM, and the same is likely the case with Raskta, considering she was only able to evade his opening attack at the last possible instant, and likely wouldn't have while not BM powered.

But yeah, I have to agree, as far as Jedi go he truly was as beastly as it gets, and is arguably the most complete lightsaber practitioner there is. Incredible speed, strength, technique, elegance, and grace. One hell of a package.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
How are you, Nebaris?

The keyboard function you're looking for there would be .



Did I deny as much? The fact of the matter is that all that they have going for them is their technical ability (also, I don't know where you're gauging "dueling" - specifically - from, considering their time period was far less focused on lightsaber-on-lightsaber action given the period didn't demand it so much, and nothing regarding them speaks specifically on the matter). Sarro was clearly not lacking in that area one bit, and yet on top of that, as I explained, was as complete a fighter as any other Jedi, was being powered to extraordinary heights by Worror's BM, and his training and experience was far more focused on dueling against opponents such as the three mentioned Jedi. He was one of the top duelists of a far greater Jedi Order, and he was being powered heavily by BM. Puts him a good notch above a bunch of one trick ponies, that absolutely suck strategically as Jedi.



One of the greatest in a galaxy wide 20,000 year old institution. Substantiate what that truly amounts to, and then substantiate what real significance technical ability truly has (which is all the statement measures), and then, if you manage to do that, substantiate how it puts him above a top tier Jedi of the greatest Order of Jedi there had likely ever been and ever will be, who was being powered tremendously by BM, and was far more specialised at fighting against lightsaber wielding Force users and far more complete a fighter than Agen could even hope to dream of.



QV was unique purely because of his psychometric power, something entirely irrelevant on a dueling situation, and something that was both powered by his Force ability and his natural ability as a guardian (and thus, not completely testament to his ability with the Force).



Irrelevant misdirection. That Mace has such faith in his ability and highly trusted him speaks of Agen's ability in comparison to any other Jedi who might fill such a spot, not to Mace Windu himself, so posting evidence of Mace's notability amounts to nothing. Oh, and for the record, Dooku was the only Jedi of his time to master Makashi, so sadly, Mace Windu most certainly did not master all the forms. Unlucky. And the only thing that was labelled "deadliest" was Vaapad. Stop repeating this falsehood.



LOL. So he was able to outclass a guy with no real proven skills and no notability whatsoever. Nice argument. Now, substantiate Obi-Wan's level of ability as of AotC, and then get back to me, or drop the point.



In a force empowered rage that granted him tremendous temporary advantages. Not testament to his regular level of ability. Try again. Also, you make an effort of pointing out the ten years that had passed, when in all truth, while his Force ability would have most definitely improved during the period, his lightsaber ability most likely went down a good notch or two, given he had completely abandoned the form of combat that he had been practising for about twenty years, and started from scratch with Soresu and only practised it for about half the time he had Ataru. If his overall level of ability was even greater after those ten years, it was marginal, at best.



There's only one passage of text that declares them both knowledgeable in such a respect, and I'm replying to it. Now, substantiate their knowledge on Jedi Lore, and then come back to me, because evidence isn't pointing to it being anything near worthy.



Or, he possessed average Force attunement, and simply possessed exceptional technical piloting ability that made up for it. Don't really care either way, you're making the claim, it's not my burden of proof. Now prove your case, or drop the point.

Oh, be banned already.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Nope, it was stated that Zannah could have killed Johun anytime. She deliberately left him alive because she realised that he was a bigger hindrance to his ally than he was to her.
That's kind of my point. If not for Johun, Zannah would be dead.

Oh, not this hoary old nonsense again. Sarro was trained at a point when there was piece. The war had been over for ten years. Until I see Sarro referred to as one of the best duelists in order history, with one being able to put down Quinlan Vos, I'll happily rank them above him

Most, yes. The highest masters like Agen, Saesee and Kit who weren't Niman users and all of whom trained and sparred with Mace on a regular basis? At the time Sarro was being trained, he was a Padawan when the war ended.

All of them are older than Sarro with a great deal more experiences with the best duelists in order history as peers and teachers. Sarro has little going for him but 'trained under Raskta, fought Zannah and died.'
The trio knows how to fight together, all have excellent defense and offensive abilities, feats to back themselves up and unlike Sarro, lots of experience.
Fighting three opponents at once of their caliber for more than seconds is rather impossible for Zannah.
She would have been killed against Sarro if not for Johun, this is unquestionable. This won't be an advantage against a trio of hardened blademasters.

Originally posted by Taven


The keyboard function you're looking for there would be .

Nebaris, the impossible has happened: your humor is actually degenerating.



Originally posted by Taven
Did I deny as much? The fact of the matter is that all that they have going for them is their technical ability (also, I don't know where you're gauging "dueling" - specifically - from, considering their time period was far less focused on lightsaber-on-lightsaber action given the period didn't demand it so much, and nothing regarding them speaks specifically on the matter). Sarro was clearly not lacking in that area one bit, and yet on top of that, as I explained, was as complete a fighter as any other Jedi, was being powered to extraordinary heights by Worror's BM, and his training and experience was far more focused on dueling against opponents such as the three mentioned Jedi. He was one of the top duelists of a far greater Jedi Order, and he was being powered heavily by BM. Puts him a good notch above a bunch of one trick ponies, that absolutely suck strategically as Jedi.

LOL. Okay, you know what? Sarro was more technically skilled than Bane, was graceful because of his technical skill, and all he had is brute strength! Nice try. 'Greatest swordsman'. We've been over this- part of being a swordsman in the Star Wars galaxy is force attunement and ability- they weren't the most 'skilled swordsman'- which refers purely to technical skill- but overall, 'greatest' and 'best'.

While that specific era focused less on dueling, it still holds that when they engaged in lightsaber combat with other lightsaber-wielding or at least people wielding melee weapons, they did just fine- when Kolar practically defeated Vos, and when Fisto took apart multiple magnaguards (droids who were said to have programming in all the forms, and were 'more than a match for most Jedi'), enough to awe General Grievous (causing him to refer to Kit as a 'true Jedi'), who had slaughtered hundreds of Jedi.

Oh, and a vastly inferior Jedi Order? Right. Then how come it was called 'the prime of the Jedi' by George friggin' Lucas, contained the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' (puts him a notch or two above Raskta, Farfalla, and co., eh?), 'one of the deadliest Jedi in history' who had mastered a form incomplete for a milennia and formed the most lethal form in existence, the ultimate master of Soresu ("the most cunning Jedi", and the Chosen One, whose raw power is well beyond any who preceded him and was the 'strongest and fastest Jedi', perhaps of any generation. Yeah, right. 'Vastly inferior Jedi Order'.

In addition, did you ever heard of the phrase "quality before quantity?" The fact that there were far less Jedi in the PT-era implies that much greater dedication and care was put into every single Jedi.

Originally posted by Taven
One of the greatest in a galaxy wide 20,000 year old institution. Substantiate what that truly amounts to, and then substantiate what real significance technical ability truly has (which is all the statement measures), and then, if you manage to do that, substantiate how it puts him above a top tier Jedi of the greatest Order of Jedi there had likely ever been and ever will be, who was being powered tremendously by BM, and was far more specialised at fighting against lightsaber wielding Force users and far more complete a fighter than Agen could even hope to dream of.

Just because Agen wasn't extensively described in combat at any given time doesn't mean he's below Sarro; it's not 'technical skill', which you would see if you stopped being so persistently blind and biased towards PT characters. Also, that so-called 'uber Jedi order!!!11!!' was put as inferior to the PT Jedi Order by George Lucas himself. In addition, the only thing we know of that Jedi Order is the fact that they were more trained to battle other lightsaber users- basing the fact that they were the greatest Jedi Order ever is pointless, stupid, and unsupported. Especially when other than Bane and Kas'im, every single Sith in the Brotherhood of Darkness was pathetic, worthless bantha fodder.

Originally posted by Taven
QV was unique purely because of his psychometric power, something entirely irrelevant on a dueling situation, and something that was both powered by his Force ability and his natural ability as a guardian (and thus, not completely testament to his ability with the Force).

Fair enough.



Originally posted by Taven
Irrelevant misdirection. That Mace has such faith in his ability and highly trusted him speaks of Agen's ability in comparison to any other Jedi who might fill such a spot, not to Mace Windu himself, so posting evidence of Mace's notability amounts to nothing. Oh, and for the record, Dooku was the only Jedi of his time to master Makashi, so sadly, Mace Windu most certainly did not master all the forms. Unlucky. And the only thing that was labelled "deadliest" was Vaapad. Stop repeating this falsehood.

Shatterpoint calls Windu one of the deadliest Jedi in history- and being the only, and greatest known master of the 'deadliest' form only speaks for his ability. The fact of the matter is, the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel referred to Mace and Kolar as the best counters to Darth Sidious, who, as Dooku's master, was probably speculated by the council to be even stronger than Dooku.

In addition, Vaapad requires mastery- or at least knowledge- of all forms. I was aware of Dooku being the greatest Makashi practitioner in the Jedi Order. But the only one? Can you prove it?



Originally posted by Taven
LOL. So he was able to outclass a guy with no real proven skills and no notability whatsoever. Nice argument. Now, substantiate Obi-Wan's level of ability as of AotC, and then get back to me, or drop the point.



In a force empowered rage that granted him tremendous temporary advantages. Not testament to his regular level of ability. Try again. Also, you make an effort of pointing out the ten years that had passed, when in all truth, while his Force ability would have most definitely improved during the period, his lightsaber ability most likely went down a good notch or two, given he had completely abandoned the form of combat that he had been practising for about twenty years, and started from scratch with Soresu and only practised it for about half the time he had Ataru. If his overall level of ability was even greater after those ten years, it was marginal, at best.

Apparently, he didn't 'completely abandon it', as he utilized it in multiple battles in RotS. In addition- if anything, having near-mastery of a certain form (there's no indication that he 'completely' abandoned it, only that it was no longer his emphasis), in addition to being a highly talented practioner of Soresu (training in a form for 10 years, when you're a talented Jedi Master, tends to make you an exceptional practioner of said form). In addition, prove that it was force-enhanced and not just a rage. While it gives you a noteworthy boost of power for a short while, it's not enough to compensate for 10 years of seasoning, experience, and extensive training.



Originally posted by Taven
There's only one passage of text that declares them both knowledgeable in such a respect, and I'm replying to it. Now, substantiate their knowledge on Jedi Lore, and then come back to me, because evidence isn't pointing to it being anything near worthy.

As Jedi Masters of renown, they no doubt spent plenty of time studying the Jedi Archives (that had an immense amount of information), to learn of past Jedi of old- it's also possible that Yoda or Mace told them that information.



Originally posted by Taven
Or, he possessed average Force attunement, and simply possessed exceptional technical piloting ability that made up for it. Don't really care either way, you're making the claim, it's not my burden of proof. Now prove your case, or drop the point.

Or he didn't. The reason why Jedi Pilots are so much greater than regular pilots is because of force attunement- why do you think Anakin was such an amazing pilot? Technical ability? Heh. Being good enough to impress Anakin Skywalker implies an extraordinary amount of force attunement (as does being one of the best swordsman in the order's history). Try again.

Anakin with or without the force WAS a legit amazing pilot, one of if not the best ever in the SW galaxy, don't knock his skills.

I didn't 'mock his skills'. He's an amazingly skilled pilot- but he's the best because of his force attunement.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I didn't 'mock his skills'. He's an amazingly skilled pilot- but he's the best because of his force attunement. What about during TPM when he had NO force training?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I didn't 'mock his skills'. He's an amazingly skilled pilot- but he's the best because of his force attunement.


I said knock not mock...while I agree, the force certainly helps (reflexes, foresight and such) there is apparently something else that sets aside Anakin from the rest of the force users piloting ships, his sheer skill for piloting. I mean a little into the Clone Wars and he's flat out stated by the Council to be the best pilot they have. Had it simply been his force connection doing all the work then why aren't people whom at the time were stronger in the force then Anakin better pilots?

I just dislike this new thing in the EU where no one has any legitimate skills and its all "LOLZ da force did it!" Why can't they just be really damn good?


And where the hell is it stated Grievous has killed "hundreds of jedi"? Maybe over a dozen at best...

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
What about during TPM when he had NO force training?

Key word, attunement. Not 'mastery'. Anakin Skywalker's force attunement is unmatched, and was the only reason why he possessed the sufficient insight and reflexes to master pod-racing, an act no other human had ever achieved. Of course, he has natural talent and is a technically skilled pilot- but it's his force attunement, reflexes, precognition, and his creativity that enable him to truly be an incredible pilot.


Originally posted by Chick MagnetI said knock not mock...while I agree, the force certainly helps (reflexes, foresight and such) there is apparently something else that sets aside Anakin from the rest of the force users piloting ships, his sheer skill for piloting. I mean a little into the Clone Wars and he's flat out stated by the Council to be the best pilot they have. Had it simply been his force connection doing all the work then why aren't people whom at the time were stronger in the force then Anakin better pilots?

I just dislike this new thing in the EU where no one has any legitimate skills and its all "LOLZ da force did it!" Why can't they just be really damn good?


And where the hell is it stated Grievous has killed "hundreds of jedi"? Maybe over a dozen at best...

Because, maybe, Anakin's strength in the force is greater than anyone in the Star Wars mythos, bar none? Yeah. I think it just might be that.

As much as I dislike that whole "people are just vessels to the powa of the force!!!" thing, it's canon.

Even if Grievous only killed, say, 50 Jedi, it's still amazing that he is highly impressed by Kit Fisto's abilities, as some of the Jedi he fought were top-tier, like Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Adi Gallia, formidable Council Members and rather skilled duelists.

And this is the same Grievous who made Mace f*cking Windu not want to prolong the engagement them. The same usually highly arrogant Grievous, who Dooku was 'hard pressed' to defeat in sparring sessions.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Key word, attunement. Not 'mastery'. Anakin Skywalker's force attunement is unmatched, and was the only reason why he possessed the sufficient insight and reflexes to master pod-racing, an act no other human had ever achieved. Of course, he has natural talent and is a technically skilled pilot- but it's his force attunement, reflexes, precognition, and his creativity that enable him to truly be an incredible pilot.



Good point but now can you actually quote a reliable source which proves that the force was actually aiding him for his reflexes in TPM?

I still do remember obiwan in ROTJ labelling him the greatest pilot in the galaxy.

Oh now you admit that...and no, Anakin's POTENTIAL is greater then anyones, his ACTUAL manifested power...not so much (Luke, Jacen, Yoda, Sidious off the top of my head surpass him) especially during the time were the quote that I put is stated.

Jacen stands out as one who has alot of force power, surpassing that of Anakin, but during his tenure in the Rough Squad, he still wasn't a better pilot then Anakin. Neither is Luke.



Debatable. The Sith namely would disagree with that notion.



I don't care. I want some STATED figures on how many Jedi he's killed before you go slinging hyperbole BS like "he's killed hundreds" around.



Once again: I don't care. I'm not arguing with you, I just want your sources.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Oh now you admit that...

Huh? Did I ever deny that little piece of information? If I did, I would be stupid.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
and no, Anakin's POTENTIAL is greater then anyones, his ACTUAL manifested power...not so much (Luke, Jacen, Yoda, Sidious off the top of my head surpass him) especially during the time were the quote that I put is stated.

I think you have a slight misunderstand of 'force strength'. Anakin had the most midichlorians in galactic history- midichlorians amount fo one's strength in the force. Similarly, one's strength in the force is equivalent to 'force attunement'. The person with the most power in the force has the potential to be capable of using the force to the greatest extent- which is why Yoda, despite having lesser strength in the force than Anakin, will be able to curbstomp him in a force fight- he has far greater control over it, so he is capable of using it in the most devastating manner.

In addition, Anakin- despite having 'less manifested force power' than Dooku, by your logic, as Dooku's force feats curbstomp Anakin's own, overpowered the more technically skilled Count via his innate power with the force.

For example- if someone is, physically, the physically strongest being in the universe, he might have the potential to be the best fistfighter in the world- but other individuals of lesser strength can use their power in a more efficient, controlled manner to curbstomp said person in personal combat.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Jacen stands out as one who has alot of force power, surpassing that of Anakin, but during his tenure in the Rough Squad, he still wasn't a better pilot then Anakin. Neither is Luke.

First of all, Jacen is undoubtedly weaker in terms of raw power in the force when in comparison to Anakin- Luke, however, has just as much strength in the force, or slightly lesser- but Anakin is more technically skilled, or so I believe. This is incredibly similar to lightsaber combat- there's technical skill, and there's how much the force impacts one's own skill- if two people have equal ability with the force, their technical ability will make all the difference. The same applies if they have equal technical skill- and if one has greater technical skill and the other greater force power, it usually happens that the one with superior force power triumphs.

The level of strength and attunement one has to the force effects their piloting- Anakin's innate power enabled him to gain levels of reflexes and precognition well beyond most pilots in history.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Debatable. The Sith namely would disagree with that notion.

Maybe it's because the Sith use the force in an entirely different manner than the Jedi?



Originally posted by Chick Magnet
I don't care. I want some STATED figures on how many Jedi he's killed before you go slinging hyperbole BS like "he's killed hundreds" around.

Try exaggeration.



Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Once again: I don't care. I'm not arguing with you, I just want your sources.

Once again, I was exaggerating the amount of Jedi General Grievous killed- however, it still stands that he killed an immense amount of Jedi, some of them being exceptionally talented.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Good point but now can you actually quote a reliable source which proves that the force was actually aiding him for his reflexes in TPM?

I still do remember obiwan in ROTJ labelling him the greatest pilot in the galaxy.

First of all, I'm not at my own house now so I don't have access to most of the sources- but I'm certain that if you check the TPM novel, both the pod scene and the battle in space offer plenty of descriptions of how Anakin 'surrendered to his instincts' or some kind of cliched EU shit like that.

Anakin is certainly the greatest pilot in the galaxy- but it comes virtue both of his technical ability and his attunement to the force. For example, the RotS novel says that Anakin's flying "transcends mere flying in the same way that Jedi combat transcends a schoolyard scuffle".

Thats the definition of hyperbole....




See, had you said that in the first place there wouldn't have been a problem, as I've said; yes the force certainly does help Anakin, but he is also very innately skilled at piloting that goes beyond simply: the force did it. That was my only beef.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
See, had you said that in the first place there wouldn't have been a problem, as I've said; yes the force certainly does help Anakin, but he is also very innately skilled at piloting that goes beyond simply: the force did it. That was my only beef.

He is innately skilled in piloting; but without the force, he wouldn't have been the best pilot in the galaxy. In order to truly be an amazing pilot, one needs the force- being a great pilot implies that Tiin's connection and mastery over the force were high.

After such a long hiatus, Nebaris has coped with his fear and returned... even lesser than before. Master Crimzon crushed that argument pretty handily. Good for you.

Thank you.

Define amazing...cause I think Han Solo, Wedge Antilles, Jango and Boba Fett, Tycho Celchu, and Jagged Fel are all amazing pilots. And yes the force does give advantages that these people simply can't have, however I think that in itself is a strength because they have to be a hell of a lot more creative then those who simply have an energy field telling them what to do. I despise the idea that force sensitives are automatically better at everything then EVERYONE else period cause they can touch the force. This idea has been shown to false also in Star Wars when someone like Thrawn exists who'd most likely shit on any force sensitive in a naval engagement. Non force sensitives are underated beyond belief, we have Jango Fett killing multiple Jedi with his bare hands, Durge laying the smackdown on Anakin Skywalker. You CAN be an amazing pilot/fighter/tactician WITHOUT the force.

Rant ova...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon


First of all, I'm not at my own house now so I don't have access to most of the sources- but I'm certain that if you check the TPM novel, both the pod scene and the battle in space offer plenty of descriptions of how Anakin 'surrendered to his instincts' or some kind of cliched EU shit like that.
Your "certain" its stated in the TPM novel and aren't even sure of it?

But then again what about his technical flying skills alone(Meaning no attunement)? Of course yes the force attunement would further aid his skills but to what extent exactly?

The force alone can't simply make you an "ub3R" pilot, it is simply is there to further enhance your already solid reflexes and skills.

The same way bodybuilding supplements work, they are only there to assist you further with an already solid eating and work out regime, the supplements alone won't help you gain the muscle mass you need... same way the force attunement alone won't make you a great pilot...


Anyways i'm not looking for another debate as i was merely addressing a point.

But you are partially right, that he is the greatest pilot partly due to his attunement, but then again read my above posts and you should understand what i am implying(which is that without the attunement he should already be a remarkable pilot).

EDIT

And please try to at least understand what i am trying to say before you come up with a rebutal.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Define amazing...cause I think Han Solo, Wedge Antilles, Jango and Boba Fett, Tycho Celchu, and Jagged Fel are all amazing pilots. And yes the force does give advantages that these people simply can't have, however I think that in itself is a strength because they have to be a hell of a lot more creative then those who simply have an energy field telling them what to do. I despise the idea that force sensitives are automatically better at everything then EVERYONE else period cause they can touch the force. This idea has been shown to false also in Star Wars when someone like Thrawn exists who'd most likely shit on any force sensitive in a naval engagement. Non force sensitives are underated beyond belief, we have Jango Fett killing multiple Jedi with his bare hands, Durge laying the smackdown on Anakin Skywalker. You CAN be an amazing pilot/fighter/tactician WITHOUT the force.

Rant ova...

First of all, tactics have nothing to do with the force- while being force-sensitive, thanks to precognition, may give a slight advantage, but it's hardly major. Two of the best tacticians in Star Wars history, General Grievous and Thrawn, weren't force-sensitive and they still fared fine (Grievous in particular, against armies that contained force-sensitive people).

Yes, these people you listed are exceptional pilots, but that's exclusively due to their technical skill- in addition, Anakin was the best pilot in the galaxy when Clones, trained pilots who possessed Jango Fett's genes, roamed around, and Anakin was head and shoulders above them. Why? The Force. As much as I like non force-sensitive people, they are inferior to force sensitive people in almost all manners.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Your "certain" its stated in the TPM novel and aren't even sure of it?

But then again what about his technical flying skills alone(Meaning no attunement)? Of course yes the force attunement would further aid his skills but to what extent exactly?

The force alone can't simply make you an "ub3R" pilot, it is simply is there to further enhance your already solid reflexes and skills.

The same way bodybuilding supplements work, they are only there to assist you further with an already solid eating and work out regime, the supplements alone won't help you gain the muscle mass you need... same way the force attunement alone won't make you a great pilot...


Anyways i'm not looking for another debate as i was merely addressing a point.

But you are partially right, that he is the greatest pilot partly due to his attunement, but then again read my above posts and you should understand what i am implying(which is that without the attunement he should already be a remarkable pilot).

EDIT

And please try to at least understand what i am trying to say before you come up with a rebutal.

First of, I apologize for the double-post. Second of all, I read the TPM novel and remember these sorts of things, if not the exact quotes- give me a few days and I can provide you with quotes. Third of all, I did not once deny Anakin's incredible technical skill, but what truly made him the best pilot in the galaxy was his force attunement, which supplemented his already formidable technical skill. Why do you think he was better than an entire galaxy's worth of people like Jango Fett? Because of his force attunement.

Of course, having the force doesn't make you 'uber', but it greatly helps. Anakin was amazing because of technical skills and the force- without either of them, he wouldn't have been the best.

Good Lord, what is it with morons and being overly and annoyingly persistent?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Nebaris, the impossible has happened: your humor is actually degenerating.

That was supposed to come out , apparently my keyboard's playing nasty tricks on me.



Which Zannah notes with obvious high regard, as follows:

"Even though her technique was more refined than her Master's, she'd been able to withstand his assault ... so far."

Which speaks a hell of a lot for his saber technique, considering Bane's the guy who was able to perfectly memories and counter the millions of moves and sequences that make up all seven forms of the saber staff in under two years; in over five times the amount of time, it's pretty clear that he would have made a tremendous improvement and reached an extremely high level of ability, as it's noted that he spent time refining his technique during the period.

And unlike these Masters, his training focused on combating the Sith, he would have most definitely fought them in the War (in response to Lightsnake bringing up the fact that he was a padawan during the war, Force sensitive children were called on to fight in the war, it's pretty clear Padawans would have received their fair share of battle experience), and as such would be much more specialised at combating lightsaber wielding Force Users than your three one trick ponies.



Grace =/= lightsaber refinery.



As well as astonishing speed, elegance, and as an overall swordsman, was believed to possess few peers in the entire Galaxy, and when BM powered, was capable of outclassing Darth fricking Zannah.



We have been over this, and you stopped replying the last time, most likely because you knew that your argument had no leg to stand on.

How 'great' or 'fine' a swordsman is measures purely how good they are with the weapon itself, and that's it. Their speed, strength etc. doesn't tell you how good they are with the weapon, but rather how effective they would be able to use it in a miscellaneous situation, ergo, it has no effect on how great they are as swordsmen specifically.

If you believe otherwise, prove up on your stance.



And? I'm not saying that they suck as duelists because of it, but that they're naturally at a disadvantage when stacked up to beings who's training was focused around dueling and combating other Force Users and Lightsaber Practitioners, and who received a high level of battle experience, again, against lightsaber wielding Sith, on top of that



Substantiate Vos's level of ability, and then get back to me, as you failed miserably the last time.



Well he was only able to take two of them on at once, and it took him as long to defeat them as it did Mace to defeat Grievous. And while they're extremely technically skilled, at the end of the day, they're still just droids, they're not sensitive to the force, and as such, don't receive the many advantages that the Force provides them: such as the inhuman speed, strength, reflexes, or precognition. Shaak Ti was after all capable of holding her own against about twelve of them; they may have been 'more than a match for most Jedi,' but it's made quite clear that would stand literally no chance against an upper tier Jedi, which Sarro most certainly is, by virtue of deeds, reputation and proven ability.



Grievous was hardly in 'awe' of him, he simply stated that his assault on the many Jedi protecting the Chancellor might not have been so successful had he surrounded himself with Jedi such as the likes of Kit Fisto. Meaning even then, he only questioned whether he would be able to take on the likes of a group of Kit Fisto level Jedi, it's quite clear that he certainly didn't think of Kit as individually posing a threat against him.

And as AC Styles pointed out, that number amounts to nothing more than hopeful hyperbole.



Yes. In numbers, training, battle experience, mentality, and emphasis on dueling and fighting against the Sith. Vastly inferior.



Define 'the prime of the Jedi' and prove that the meaning is anything remotely related to combat and personal power. It could just as easily be in reference to the time of peace (it was made with reference to the time of The Phantom Menace) that the Jedi policed over as it could their level of power.



1. I've already explained why the canonicity of that quote should be brought into question; it immediately goes on to say that the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' just didn't have what it takes to defeat Sidious, in response to a battle between the two that depicted Sidious kicking Yoda's ass all over the place, which clearly contradicts the movie. Now before you go on about narration and character thoughts not being subject to retcon, they are when they're dependant on invalid events, which is exactly what's the case.

2. Even assuming that it's a canonical piece of narration, define it, and then get back to me, because power can be defined as the capacity to be effective, Yoda's labelled a direct foe of the 'darkness,' a force of nature that had lived throughout the ages and presumably can never be completely destroyed, and as such, it's highly likely that the quote is in allusion to Yoda's role in the grand scheme of things, and how much of a threat he had been to the darkness throughout the many centuries he had been alive. Now, prove up on your interpretation, or drop the point.

3. Even assuming that Yoda was the most combat capable Jedi ever, he's an ancient Jedi Grandmaster who had lived for centuries and who's midi-chlorian level was presumably the highest of the PT era before Anakin came along. He's not an accurate representative of the Jedi Order as a whole, ergo, you have no point.



Again, another Jedi who was essentially an anomaly within his Order. Not an accurate representative of the Order as a whole. Also, please source that quote, as I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist.



Now you're just being ridiculous. Obi-Wan Kenobi's praise fully stems from his position within his Order. The structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for how the Order itself compares to those before or after it, ergo, you have no point.



1. The 'well beyond' demands proof.

2. Again, he's the Chosen One, another anomaly. He's not an accurate representative of his Order, ergo, you still have no point.



Again, how good someone was in relation to the Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole.



The term 'Perhaps' would immediately bring the statement into question, can be considered hyperbolic, but that doesn't matter anyway, as the fricking Chosen One is not the quintessential PT Jedi. Far from it.

Good Lord you're dense. All you've managed to do is list a bunch of in-order hierarchies, as well as name a few anomalies within the Order and list their accomplishments. For the former, the structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole, and for the latter, an anomaly isn't an accurate representative of a sample. You haven't proven a thing for the Order as a whole. Try again.



The old Order has both. Far higher numbers, and far greater emphasis on fighting the Sith and dueling, better training, and better battle experience.



Which is simply retarded. The higher numbers in the AoL times would apply to both the Masters and the students. Nothing indicates that the Master-student ratio would have been any different, meaning you have no point. For less care to be given in respect to training and such would require that the ratio between student and master be more in favour to the students for the AoL times in comparison to the PT times. Nothing even hints that as much is the case.

Also, in case you missed the point, I was simply pointing out that Sarro was a larger fish in a far larger pond. That he was in such a position among such a higher number of Jedi speaks far more highly for his level of ability, as he would face more competition than others would.

There's also the cosmic effect that number of Jedi would have had on the Light side of the Force. As PoD notes, the darkside works best when focused in a small number, and the fact that Kaan's Order numbered in the thousands had been weakening and filtering the darkside. The opposite's the case with the Jedi; the higher the numbers, the stronger the light side of the Force.



We argue by virtue of what we know, and all that Agen has going for him is amazing technical ability. Sarro has the same, albeit to a lesser degree, but amazing strength, speed, grace, and elegance on top of that, and his reputation would indicate that he was higher up than the three were in his already far more impressive Order. When powered by Battle Meditation, he was capable of outclassing someone as powerful as Zannah (who as I said, would realistically be at a level of ability somewhere between Bane's PoD and Ro2 incarnations).



If you feel so strongly about it, prove up. Analyse the exact meaning behind 'greatest' and 'swordsmen,' examine what effect each word has on each other, use real world and literary examples, and prove, undeniably, that the statement measures more than just their technical ability. Do that, and then you can claim that Agen and Seasee and Kit have more going for them than just their technical ability.



Not from a combat standpoint.



It's not my problem if you want to pretend that the evidence isn't there, but sadly for you, it is.

Their numbers were higher, their training was superior, they were more battle hardened, there was a greater emphasis on dueling and combating the Sith, they possessed more of a warrior's mentality, and given, again, the numbers, the Light Side of the Force (what they draw on to power themselves up) would have most definitely flourished during the period.



ROFL. I'd love it if you could prove any of that. Just because the others may not have displayed that much doesn't mean that they have little going for them. Also, why the hell are you bringing up the BoD, we're talking about the AoL and the Jedi Order that followed, keep up.



Quote and Page Number. Not that it matters, my argument's not based around Mace, but his Order, and being an anomaly within his Order, is not an accurate representation of it.



Why are you bringing up what the omniscient narrator states, and then bringing up the council's potential speculations? I don't even know what point you think you're trying to make here.



Replace 'all' with 'multiple,' and you'd be correct. No proof whatsoever that Mace was even proficient with Makashi.



I don't really care enough about the point to search through a bunch of material and find the quote for you; at the end of the day, you made the claim that Windu had mastered all forms, the burden of proof falls on you to prove up, and you clearly can't (primarily due to the fact that it's impossible in this case, as the evidence is nonexistent).



He completely abandoned the practise of it, yes. I never stated that he would never use it again in a stand alone incident, but that's all it was, one time, to dupe Dooku .



There is, actually: noting its defencive flaws and the weakness and vulnerability that surfaced with Qui-Gon's death, he decided never to use the form again and start completely afresh with Soresu. How proficient he may have been with it matters little, as he no longer utilised it in combat.



The point I was making was that he only practised the form for half the time he did with Ataru. As talented as Obi-wan may have been, he was always that talented, both when he was practising Ataru, and when he was mastering Soresu. With only half the time spent mastering Soresu that he spent with Ataru, and no longer utilising his original form, common sense dictates that his technique went down by a fair margin.



They're not mutually exclusive. When you give into your rage, you tap into the dark side of the Force, which in turn provides a significant boost to your abilities. And that would be the only explanation, given how easily Maul was able to take down Obi-Wan's Master, Qui-Gon, and how Obi-Wan was stated to be 'not yet his equal.'



As has already been established, the ten years wouldn't have made that big an overall difference to his ability, and either way, prove up. Maul was vastly more technically skilled (being a high end master of multiple forms), was using an unorthodox weapon, and was physically far better conditioned. He clearly didn't have any trouble breaking through his Force defences and Force pushing him on his ass either. That Obi-Wan was able to compete with him at all would suggest that the rage provided tremendous temporary advantages.



That makes... absolutely no sense, whatsoever. So because they were Jedi of renown, Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti = history buffs? Right...



Possible, but unproven. Prove up, or drop the point. Substantiate their credibility at making such a claim.

I never denied as much, but what separated Saesee from his fellow Jedi could have easily been his technical ability, and not his Force attunement, which could have just as well remained average.



Amazing Force attunement and talent as a pilot. But that's Anakin. Anakin is not Saesee. What makes Anakin an amazing pilot doesn't have to be what makes Saesee an amazing pilot. Now, prove up on your claims, or drop the point.



It's a possibility, which is all that I need to provide proof of, considering it's your burden of proof.



No, it implies that as an overall pilot, he was exceptionally gifted. You can't prove that being that great a pilot demands even above average Force attunement, ergo, you have no point. Unlucky.



As already established, no. Try harder.

LOL.

Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tinn, Sora Bulq (and, by some extention, Depa Billaba). That's ten Jedi whose skills have been lauded as elite or powerful even compared to the entire history of the Jedi Order, twenty-five thousand years. Meanwhile, the "prime of the Jedi" statement was issued during a time that the Order's numbers had dwindled to a "mere 10,000" and beginning the rise to power of the most powerful Sith Lord in history, where the dark side of the Force was beginning to take dominance. It clearly refers to combat capability. George Lucas and I > RoT and the EU > you.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
First of, I apologize for the double-post. Second of all, I read the TPM novel and remember these sorts of things, if not the exact quotes- give me a few days and I can provide you with quotes. Third of all, I did not once deny Anakin's incredible technical skill, but what truly made him the best pilot in the galaxy was his force attunement, which supplemented his already formidable technical skill. Why do you think he was better than an entire galaxy's worth of people like Jango Fett? Because of his force attunement.

Of course, having the force doesn't make you 'uber', but it greatly helps. Anakin was amazing because of technical skills and the force- without either of them, he wouldn't have been the best.


Wait a minute, you completely misunderstood my point.

I already made it clear that the force assists your already solid reflexs and piloting skills the same way that supplements assist your already solid eating and gym regime.(At least you seem to got this)

I have already asked you and you have yet to answer, to what extent does the force assist him in such situations? You are making it as if it helps him by an incredibly large margin which you have yet to prove.

So, what is your point exactly? That he is the greatest pilot due to both his "amazing" talents and "force attunement"? If so, why bring out and argue a point that most of us already know?

BTW don't bother arguing with nebaris, no matter how many times you own or smash him he keeps coming back like a broken record. Just ignore him.

LOL. Apparently after the 500 curbstomps you still] think you can win one against me.



Substantiate.

In a Galaxy Wide and over 20,000 year long organisation, define what it means to be "one of the best" or "one of the greatest."

In the greatest era for Jedi there's ever been, it's really not that much of a stretch to conclude that a few of these "greatest" or "best" would be present.



Did you not just read through my post (silly question, you make it a habit to read everything that comes out of my computer screen)? Their lower number is a condition that I listed for them being a less imrpessive order. A possible interpretation of the statement that I presented was that The Jedi were in their prime due to their era's relative level of peace.



The beginning to the rise. Exactly. He hadn't risen to power quite at that time, ergo, it wouldn't undermine the idea that the Prime of the Jedi is in reference to something other than combat prowess and personal power.



Beginning.



Prove it.



No, it goes: Drew Karpyshyn and Karen Traviss > George Lucas and Nick Gillard > Gilliad Pallalaon > Publius.

Originally posted by Taven
LOL. Apparently after the 500 curbstomps you still] think you can win one against me.



Substantiate.

In a Galaxy Wide and over 20,000 year long organisation, define what it means to be "one of the best" or "one of the greatest."

In the greatest era for Jedi there's ever been, it's really not that much of a stretch to conclude that a few of these "greatest" or "best" would be present.



Did you not just read through my post (silly question, you make it a habit to read everything that comes out of my computer screen)? Their lower number is a condition that I listed for them being a less imrpessive order. A possible interpretation of the statement that I presented was that The Jedi were in their prime due to their era's relative level of peace.



The beginning to the rise. Exactly. He hadn't risen to power quite at that time, ergo, it wouldn't undermine the idea that the Prime of the Jedi is in reference to something other than combat prowess and personal power.



Beginning.



Prove it.



No, it goes: Drew Karpyshyn and Karen Traviss > George Lucas and Nick Gillard > Gilliad Pallalaon > Publius.

http://lambkill.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/normal_uncle-sam-stfu.jpg

You know, I'm going to amend that actually.

Nadal > all of you... so good day.

Gideon, you are mistaken, because you are speaking about the incredibly reliable, omniscent, and non-biased Nebaris!

Originally posted by Taven
Good Lord, what is it with morons and being overly and annoyingly persistent?

Ask yourself, and you might get the answer.

Originally posted by Taven
Which Zannah notes with obvious high regard, as follows:

"Even though her technique was more refined than her Master's, she'd been able to withstand his assault ... so far."

Which speaks a hell of a lot for his saber technique, considering Bane's the guy who was able to perfectly memories and counter the millions of moves and sequences that make up all seven forms of the saber staff in under two years; in over five times the amount of time, it's pretty clear that he would have made a tremendous improvement and reached an extremely high level of ability, as it's noted that he spent time refining his technique during the period.

Wonderful, Nebaris, because Bane- a person who relied on battering opponents into submission via brute strength, speed, and his completely lack of need for defense is unlikely to be particularly refined in his movements. In addition, because he has knowledge of the moves utilizing by the saber staff does not mean he can proficiently use them- having knowledge of moves does not mean you can necessarily employ them. For example, I know the someone may be capable of a somersault- but does it mean I can do the same? Hardly.

Now, prove that Bane was amazingly refined, or drop the point.

Originally posted by Taven
And unlike these Masters, his training focused on combating the Sith, he would have most definitely fought them in the War (in response to Lightsnake bringing up the fact that he was a padawan during the war, Force sensitive children were called on to fight in the war, it's pretty clear Padawans would have received their fair share of battle experience), and as such would be much more specialised at combating lightsaber wielding Force Users than your three one trick ponies.



Grace =/= lightsaber refinery.

So, I'm expected to believe that if someone fought more often against people who wielded lightsabers, they are automatically better than people who had studied primarily to combat blaster technology? The PT Jedi have also sparred extensively with their peers, so they obviously had experience with fighting people wielding lightsabers.



Originally posted by Taven
As well as astonishing speed, elegance, and as an overall swordsman, was believed to possess few peers in the entire Galaxy, and when BM powered, was capable of outclassing Darth fricking Zannah.

Let's compare 'Darth fricking Zannah' to the other famous practioner of Soresu in history, right? Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is acknowledged as the absolute master of Soresu, was capable of blocking 20 strikes per second and stunned Dooku with his 'bewilderingly fast defense'. The same Obi-Wan who outclasses her in every shape and form other than in force mastery. And do you remember Obi-Wan was from the PT-era, right?

And now, prove that he had few peers in the entire galaxy.

Originally posted by Taven
How 'great' or 'fine' a swordsman is measures purely how good they are with the weapon itself, and that's it. Their speed, strength etc. doesn't tell you how good they are with the weapon, but rather how effective they would be able to use it in a miscellaneous situation, ergo, it has no effect on how great they are as swordsmen specifically.

If you believe otherwise, prove up on your stance.

I've proven over, and over again why greatness with a weapon in Star Wars mentions how good someone is, overall, with a blade. Your persistence is truly staggering.

Originally posted by Taven
Well he was only able to take two of them on at once, and it took him as long to defeat them as it did Mace to defeat Grievous. And while they're extremely technically skilled, at the end of the day, they're still just droids, they're not sensitive to the force, and as such, don't receive the many advantages that the Force provides them: such as the inhuman speed, strength, reflexes, or precognition. Shaak Ti was after all capable of holding her own against about twelve of them; they may have been 'more than a match for most Jedi,' but it's made quite clear that would stand literally no chance against an upper tier Jedi, which Sarro most certainly is, by virtue of deeds, reputation and proven ability.

Precognition? Sure. But the else? They are machines, and like Grievous, have machine-based reflexes that enable them to move faster than the eye can see (Revenge of the Sith Novelization). They are also study droids, implying that they, like Grievous, are capable of superhuman feats of strength- while that, specifically, may not be above a Jedi's ability, it's most certainly impressive.



Originally posted by Taven
Grievous was hardly in 'awe' of him, he simply stated that his assault on the many Jedi protecting the Chancellor might not have been so successful had he surrounded himself with Jedi such as the likes of Kit Fisto. Meaning even then, he only questioned whether he would be able to take on the likes of a group of Kit Fisto level Jedi, it's quite clear that he certainly didn't think of Kit as individually posing a threat against him.

Really? A person like Grievous, when noting the formidable abilities of a certain Jedi and noting the fact that they might prove a worthy challenge to him, especially when he had fought with Jedi like Shaak Ti and Ki-Adi-Mundi and was never said to be particularly impressed by their abilities in combat, it's quite obvious that he is looking at an exceptionally skilled combatant.

Originally posted by Taven
Yes. In numbers, training, battle experience, mentality, and emphasis on dueling and fighting against the Sith. Vastly inferior.

Refer to what Gideon said.

Originally posted by Taven
2. Even assuming that it's a canonical piece of narration, define it, and then get back to me, because power can be defined as the capacity to be effective, Yoda's labelled a direct foe of the 'darkness,' a force of nature that had lived throughout the ages and presumably can never be completely destroyed, and as such, it's highly likely that the quote is in allusion to Yoda's role in the grand scheme of things, and how much of a threat he had been to the darkness throughout the many centuries he had been alive. Now, prove up on your interpretation, or drop the point.

The typical Nebaris. Yoda was called the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known'- seeing as every Jedi in history is, by definition, a foe of the darkness, it clearly establishes that Yoda has the most devastating power of any Jedi in history. It has nothing to do with the accumulated amount of time he spent battling the darkness. In fact, your entire point makes me 'lol' with how ridiculous it is.

Originally posted by Taven
3. Even assuming that Yoda was the most combat capable Jedi ever, he's an ancient Jedi Grandmaster who had lived for centuries and who's midi-chlorian level was presumably the highest of the PT era before Anakin came along. He's not an accurate representative of the Jedi Order as a whole, ergo, you have no point.

No- but Yoda had trained EVERY SINGLE Jedi in the Prequel Era. While he did not train them extensively, getting first-hand training from the greatest Jedi in history up to that point is certainly a factor in the overall power levels depicted in the Prequels.

Originally posted by Taven
Again, another Jedi who was essentially an anomaly within his Order. Not an accurate representative of the Order as a whole. Also, please source that quote, as I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist.

I don't own Shatterpoint, but I'm fairly certain that quote exists- but nevertheless, I'll stop using it due to the fact that I can't show you the quote in question.

Originally posted by Taven
Now you're just being ridiculous. Obi-Wan Kenobi's praise fully stems from his position within his Order. The structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for how the Order itself compares to those before or after it, ergo, you have no point.

No, but the fact that most of the greatest Jedi in history were produced by the so-called 'inferior' Jedi order speaks for the overall level of ability displayed within it. You really ought to stop trying to pass it all off as due to the individual ability of these certain Jedi.

Originally posted by Taven
2. Again, he's the Chosen One, another anomaly. He's not an accurate representative of his Order, ergo, you still have no point.

Who trained him to use the force to the same extent? Obi-Wan and the Masters of the Jedi Order.



Originally posted by Taven
Again, how good someone was in relation to the Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole.

And once again, you fail to see how the Order that has released the greatest amount of top-tier force users in Galactic History says something for the order in its entirety, rather than just due to these people's personal ability.

Originally posted by Taven
LOL. Apparently after the 500 curbstomps you still] think you can win one against me.

Ah, yes, cue the predictable delusions of victory. Persistence in defeat isn't admirable, Nebaris, it's only pathetic and pitiful. Coming to these forums, weeks after your rather brutal defeat at my hands , hasn't done wonders for your dull wit and misplaced intelligence. You're back on that slippery slope, a one way, inevitable trip to utter failure. Some people never change.



Alas, there's a greater collective of duelists referred to as the best ever in the prequel trilogy moreso than your vaunted RoT-era. Ergo, it would seem to imply that the PT > RoT.



Indeed, which means they are referred to as "the prime of the Jedi" despite their lackluster numbers and despite the fact that the dark side had been gaining strength for the advent of Darth Sidious.



Your incompetence has seemingly blossomed over your little break; Palpatine's rise to power had begun, he had just been elected Chancellor and already dominated galactic politics even before.



According to Labyrinth of Evil, the dark side had been gaining strength for two hundred years prior to the events of that particular story, in preparation for the advent of Darth Sidious.



Just did.



Your inability to spell and develop funny material are becoming even more stagnant.

But surely you're used to defeat by now, Nebaris. Nothing new or suprising.

No, it goes: Drew Karpyshyn and Karen Traviss > George Lucas and Nick Gillard > Gilliad Pallalaon > Publius.

Originally posted by Taven
Good Lord you're dense. All you've managed to do is list a bunch of in-order hierarchies, as well as name a few anomalies within the Order and list their accomplishments. For the former, the structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole, and for the latter, an anomaly isn't an accurate representative of a sample. You haven't proven a thing for the Order as a whole. Try again.

LOL, Nebaris. Refer to my previous points- the fact that the PT Order had released the greatest amount of top-tier Jedi out of any Order speaks for its capacity as a whole, not only to these people's amazing personal ability, as they were trained by the talented masters of that certain Jedi Order.

I don't even need this, as Gideon had already displayed percisely how Lucas' quote puts their overall combat ability at above your precious Jedi Order. And, by the way, where did you curbstomp him? In your wet dreams?

Originally posted by Taven
Which is simply retarded. The higher numbers in the AoL times would apply to both the Masters and the students. Nothing indicates that the Master-student ratio would have been any different, meaning you have no point. For less care to be given in respect to training and such would require that the ratio between student and master be more in favour to the students for the AoL times in comparison to the PT times. Nothing even hints that as much is the case.

No, the Master-student ratio will probably not be different; however, due to the far lesser amount of Jedi, it's very much probable that they received far better and more extensive training by both the individuals in the Jedi Temple- which include a certain Master Yoda- and by their masters, who likely trained them better and more fully due to the great amount of time that passed, which will probably allow the Order to accumulate more and more knowledge over time.

In addition, the Order was led by Yoda for hundreds of years, so it's unlikely any knowledge would be 'lost', so don't even bring up that point. The only thing the previous Jedi Order have on the PT Order is the fact that they fought Sith more often- which is almost completely irrelevant, because other than two specific Sith, every single Sith in the BoD is a worthless piece of junk, as proven by their Bane's extremely low opinion of them. They focused on being soldiers, not Sith- they knowledge of the Dark Side was immensely limited, and it doesn't help that they were lead by incompetent fools like Lord Kaan.

Originally posted by Taven
Also, in case you missed the point, I was simply pointing out that Sarro was a larger fish in a far larger pond. That he was in such a position among such a higher number of Jedi speaks far more highly for his level of ability, as he would face more competition than others would.

Great. A Jedi Order that was trained to fight incompetent Sith- and prove that he was a 'larger fish', because the four who are up against Bane and Zannah are renowned as not only the end-all of the Jedi Order, but some of the best, and most skilled people in history, something that Sarro was never called.

Originally posted by Taven
There's also the cosmic effect that number of Jedi would have had on the Light side of the Force. As PoD notes, the darkside works best when focused in a small number, and the fact that Kaan's Order numbered in the thousands had been weakening and filtering the darkside. The opposite's the case with the Jedi; the higher the numbers, the stronger the light side of the Force.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Taven
We argue by virtue of what we know, and all that Agen has going for him is amazing technical ability. Sarro has the same, albeit to a lesser degree, but amazing strength, speed, grace, and elegance on top of that, and his reputation would indicate that he was higher up than the three were in his already far more impressive Order. When powered by Battle Meditation, he was capable of outclassing someone as powerful as Zannah (who as I said, would realistically be at a level of ability somewhere between Bane's PoD and Ro2 incarnations).

No, Zannah is extremely unlikely to be on the same level of Bane's PoD incarnation, where he displayed incredible strength, ability with the force, and speed- Zannah had never displayed anything even approaching that same level of power. Unless you can prove it, of course.

Agen has more than 'amazing technical ability', as I had proven multiple times in the past, but I don't expect you to be capable of seeing it, due in no small part to your bias and stupidity.

Originally posted by Taven
If you feel so strongly about it, prove up. Analyse the exact meaning behind 'greatest' and 'swordsmen,' examine what effect each word has on each other, use real world and literary examples, and prove, undeniably, that the statement measures more than just their technical ability. Do that, and then you can claim that Agen and Seasee and Kit have more going for them than just their technical ability.

Greatest swordsman. In the Star galaxy, a huge amount of swordsmanship is due to one's ability and attunement to the force, rather than exclusively skill levels. For example, Anoon Bondara was said to have lightsaber skills that were second to none, but we see Darth Maul completely outclassing him in combat.


Originally posted by Taven
It's not my problem if you want to pretend that the evidence isn't there, but sadly for you, it is.

Their numbers were higher, their training was superior, they were more battle hardened, there was a greater emphasis on dueling and combating the Sith, they possessed more of a warrior's mentality, and given, again, the numbers, the Light Side of the Force (what they draw on to power themselves up) would have most definitely flourished during the period.

Training was superior? LOL. If anything, it was inferior. More of a warrior's mentality. LOL. Prove it. Better light side of the force? PROVE IT. Numbers were higher? Points to the strength of the Jedi Order as a whole, not to the power of its individual members. More battle hardened? Compare the war they fought to the Clone Wars, and then prove that it was a greater war. In addition, the fact that there were less Jedi strongly implies that every single Jedi actively participated in the actual conflict, to a greater extent than the greater numbers of the old Jedi Order.

Originally posted by Taven
ROFL. I'd love it if you could prove any of that. Just because the others may not have displayed that much doesn't mean that they have little going for them. Also, why the hell are you bringing up the BoD, we're talking about the AoL and the Jedi Order that followed, keep up.

LOL! My god, I don't remember ever being so amused by someone's attempt at debating here. To quote you, with argue 'virtue of what we know', but when it comes down to the fact that the people you argue for have done absolutely nothing, 'absence of proof is not proof of absence'. You know what? They were all insanely fast, powerful, and were capable of destroying planets with their force abilities. They've never done it... SO WHAT? It doesn't mean they are incapable of it!

The Sith were, as you put it, hardly in touch with the dark side and were hardly even true Sith. Yes, they were a pathetic bunch of nobodys.

Originally posted by Taven
Replace 'all' with 'multiple,' and you'd be correct. No proof whatsoever that Mace was even proficient with Makashi.

Fair enough.



Originally posted by Taven
I don't really care enough about the point to search through a bunch of material and find the quote for you; at the end of the day, you made the claim that Windu had mastered all forms, the burden of proof falls on you to prove up, and you clearly can't (primarily due to the fact that it's impossible in this case, as the evidence is nonexistent).

I can't prove what specific forms he mastered, but he, at least, mastered most of them.

To put the rest of your post in other words: "LOL I made a stupid claim and I can't back it up, but who cares!"

Originally posted by Taven
He completely abandoned the practise of it, yes. I never stated that he would never use it again in a stand alone incident, but that's all it was, one time, to dupe Dooku .



There is, actually: noting its defencive flaws and the weakness and vulnerability that surfaced with Qui-Gon's death, he decided never to use the form again and start completely afresh with Soresu. How proficient he may have been with it matters little, as he no longer utilised it in combat.



The point I was making was that he only practised the form for half the time he did with Ataru. As talented as Obi-wan may have been, he was always that talented, both when he was practising Ataru, and when he was mastering Soresu. With only half the time spent mastering Soresu that he spent with Ataru, and no longer utilising his original form, common sense dictates that his technique went down by a fair margin.

Yes. Only that you have to prove that, instead of no longer making it his emphasis, he 'completely abandoned it', and never used it in combat- which is contradicted by how he utilizied it against Dooku.

In addition, during his ten years of practice between the point of TPM and AotC, he had access to more information, more mentors, and better training methods, due to his status as both a master of an insanely promising Padawan and as a talented Jedi Knight who struck down the first Sith Lord to surface in a millennia; plus, he had far more experience at his disposal, no doubt increasing his cunning. Clearly, he's superior to his TPM self, even while enraged.



Originally posted by Taven
They're not mutually exclusive. When you give into your rage, you tap into the dark side of the Force, which in turn provides a significant boost to your abilities. And that would be the only explanation, given how easily Maul was able to take down Obi-Wan's Master, Qui-Gon, and how Obi-Wan was stated to be 'not yet his equal.'

On the other hand, he was outright said to be quicker and, all in all, far superior physically when in comparison to Qui-Gon Jinn, which, along with his rage, is what enabled him to fare far better than his master against Darth Maul.

In addition, Qui-Gon Jinn, despite being of lesser technical skill, speed, and physical conditioning than Maul, put Maul on the defensive for almost the entire fight, and the TPM Novel supports the notion that Maul had to use his acrobatics to get away from Qui-Gon in time, due to the fact that Qui-Gon completely nullified his offensive and prevented him from launching a sufficient counterattack. It clearly wasn't 'easy' for Maul.



Originally posted by Taven
As has already been established, the ten years wouldn't have made that big an overall difference to his ability, and either way, prove up. Maul was vastly more technically skilled (being a high end master of multiple forms), was using an unorthodox weapon, and was physically far better conditioned. He clearly didn't have any trouble breaking through his Force defences and Force pushing him on his ass either. That Obi-Wan was able to compete with him at all would suggest that the rage provided tremendous temporary advantages.

It gives one a great boost of aggression and power- but sufficient to make up for 10 years worth of practice and experience? I highly doubt that.



Originally posted by Taven
That makes... absolutely no sense, whatsoever. So because they were Jedi of renown, Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti = history buffs? Right...

No. Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti, Jedi Masters of high renown and Council Members who, at least in Obi-Wan's case, were highly familiar with Yoda, a being who led the Jedi Order for hundreds of years and was an intellectual who constantly strived for knowledge in order to completely master the force- clearly, Obi-Wan's word his highly credible on the matters of history.

In addition, Mace Windu trained directly under Yoda and was, similarly, a Jedi legendary for his wisdom and skill, and was also a senior council members.

Also, according to the RotS novel, Yoda was personally told about the team assembled to take down Darth Sidious, who, as Dooku's master, was no doubt speculated by the Council to be greater than Dooku in terms of combat ability- Yoda had fought Dooku on two occasions, and would, undoubtedly, know the level of potential skill Sidious would possess. He wouldn't approve any but the Order's greatest swordsmen to attempt to arrest the Dark Lord of the Sith.

Originally posted by Taven
I never denied as much, but what separated Saesee from his fellow Jedi could have easily been his technical ability, and not his Force attunement, which could have just as well remained average.

Lol. It takes more than incredible technical skill to be one of the greatest pilots in a galaxy filled with millions of highly trained soldiers who are templates of Jango Fett, an amazingly skilled pilot in his own right- sorry, Saesee's training as a pilot (something Jedi placed little to no emphasis upon) is unlikely to be the deciding factor of him being an incredible pilot.

Originally posted by Taven
Amazing Force attunement and talent as a pilot. But that's Anakin. Anakin is not Saesee. What makes Anakin an amazing pilot doesn't have to be what makes Saesee an amazing pilot. Now, prove up on your claims, or drop the point.

Proven already.

Originally posted by Taven
No, it implies that as an overall pilot, he was exceptionally gifted. You can't prove that being that great a pilot demands even above average Force attunement, ergo, you have no point. Unlucky.

Not really; Jedi have precious little time to train in their little Starfighter due to the emphasis upon close-quarters combat and lightsaber training in the Order; being an amazingly gifted pilot requires both superb technical skill and force attunement, as displayed previously, by how Tiin was clearly superior to soldiers who were extensively trained in piloting.

Originally posted by Taven
As already established, no. Try harder.

Sorry. Being one of the greatest overall swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history requires an exceptionally high level of force attunement.

@Arnold- I know I shouldn't debate with him, but... well, someone needs to do it, eh?

No, if you ignore him he'll just get banned faster. Rex doesn't want to go through all that text.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon


@Arnold- I know I shouldn't debate with him, but... well, someone needs to do it, eh? Well you did a very good job of handing his ass to him, but like i said he will keep coming back with crap.

Infact most of us has beaten him in debates for the last 2 years but he insists on coming back to annoy and let his bias dictate for him. He just won't shut up no matter how many times you stuff a sock up his ass.

Even the great gideon whom could handle nebaris with relative ease(in my point of view at least) can't get him to shut up hell even darth sexy is already sick and tired of arguing with a social reject and so am i.


Only rex can.

Lol, I think someone here's taking obsession to a whole new level. I don't even so much as try to initiate a single conversation with the guy, and the weirdo won't leave me alone. It would be cute if he was a chick, but sadly, he isn't, and hasn't been one for a very, very long time.

Originally posted by Gideon
Ah, yes, cue the predictable delusions of victory. Persistence in defeat isn't admirable, Nebaris, it's only pathetic and pitiful. Coming to these forums, weeks after your rather brutal defeat at my hands , hasn't done wonders for your dull wit and misplaced intelligence. You're back on that slippery slope, a one way, inevitable trip to utter failure. Some people never change.

Well speaking of this Nebaris, who I am most certainly not, he just sent me a Private Message via a secret account that I swore to secrecy I wouldn't reveal, and would like to point out that his "hiatus" lasted little over a week, and that his then latest account didn't so much as direct a passing word at you.



Implications FTW? Wait, that's not even an implication, it's what seems to be an implication. It's like half an implication. So rather than substantiating your claims, that's what your argument's relying on? Great argument there Gideon.

Now as I was saying to Sidi-boy, this is worthless to bring up until you can substantiate what being "one of the best" of a Galaxy wide, +20,000 year long organisation amounts to, and until you can substantiate that the number that the PT Order of Jedi produced was greater than that produced by the AoL Order of Jedi. Then you would also have to prove up on the idea that the higher the number of such Jedi produced by the Order perfectly correlates to the greatness of the Order itself. And you can't do any of that, ergo, bringing these ridiculous quotes up fails, every time. We don't know how many such Jedi the AoL may have produced, and we can't logically deduce that it was any more or less than the those the PT Order of Jedi produced. No comparison can be drawn.



Two point that do nothing to undermine my stance? Well at least you're improving.

Now back to what I was saying, you cannot undeniably prove that the only interpretation of the quote is that the Jedi were at the height of their personal level of power from a combat standpoint; you cannot undeniably prove my interpretation wrong, and your only attempt at a counter does nothing whatsoever at undermining the idea that the quote is made with respect to the era of peace that the Jedi oversaw. Meaning, as usual, you have no point.

Their lackluster numbers and the growing strength of the dark side say nothing about how peaceful the era had been, nor do they undermine the possibility of that being what the quote is in reference to.



I was speaking in reference to the real position of power he would later rise to, though again, it doesn't matter. This, in no way, undermines the possible interpretation of the quote that I presented, ergo, you have no point.



Again, my point being that the dark side hadn't yet completely taken dominance. The key word - "Beginning" would usually have indicated as much. Not that it matters, as again, this in no way undermines the idea that it was the Prime of the Jedi purely because of how peaceful the era was.



No, you didn't. You provided three completely irrelevant pieces of information: the Jedi's numbers, Palpatine's rise to power, and the dark side's growth, in an attempt to undermine the idea that the Jedi were in their prime purely because of the fact that they policed a Galaxy of relative peace.



And your ability to make sense sadly remains the same. Something doesn't become more stagnant. It's either stagnant, or it's not. Just like Gilliad Pallaleo isn't any more dead by the Legacy era than he was by the end of the LotF series. He's simply dead. And for good reason (only homos enjoyed his character).



LOL. The Publius comment hurt, didn't it?



That's what I just said.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Gideon, you are mistaken, because you are speaking about the incredibly reliable, omniscent, and non-biased Nebaris!

Well I'm glad to see you're starting to wisen up, at least.



Well it looks like someone's witty today.



Just because Bane relies less on his technique doesn't mean he hasn't been progressing it to tremendous heights. Bane's a perfectionist, he literally spent his entire tutelage at the Sith Academy being the best he could be, sleeping a minimal number of hours a day, manipulating both Githany and Kas'im into giving him intensive training in both lightsaber combat and Force application, and spending virtually the rest of his time in the archives, supplementing his current training.

Now as I said, it's stated in Ro2 that he refined his technique during the ten year period that followed PoD, which is over five times the length of time he spent in PoD, where he was not only able to advance his own form, but perfectly memorise the millions of moves and sequences that make up the double bladed lightsaber, and apply that knowledge into countering them. If he can do all of that in under two years, common sense would dictate that he would have brought his own skills to enormous heights after ten further years of training.



I didn't say that, though it's not improbable. In theory, it wouldn't be very difficult to transition the ability to apply knowledge of the many moves and sequences of a form into countering them, into applying that knowledge into being able to perform them. Being able to perform the moves is certainly not inherently more complex than being able to counter them, and it's far more likely that Zannah learnt how to wield the saber staff from a living, breathing being (Bane) rather than a holocron projection (it's also worth noting that both Revan and Freedon Nadd have always been depicted with a regular single lightsaber, or dual blades (in Revan's case), and never a double bladed lightsaber).

But no, again, that's not the point I was making: I was illustrating how quickly Bane was capable of learning the workings of the lightsaber, and applying that knowledge, and saying that if he was capable of perfectly memorising millions of form and sequences, and knowing how to counter them, on top of advancing his own form of combat, in over five times the amount of time, he would have been able to make far greater progress on learning and applying knowledge of the workings of a lightsaber than he had ever been able to do before (only rather than applying that knowledge into the countering of moves and sequences, he would be doing so into performing them (which isn't something inherently more complex, and thus wouldn't be more difficult in applying)).



False comparison, logical fallacy.

Being able to perform a somersault has both its physical demands as well as theoretical demands.

Being able to perform or counter the moves and sequences that make up the style of a weapon, on the other hand, are only dependant on two things: knowledge of the moves and sequences, and the ability to apply that knowledge. No real physical demands.



Already done, logical deduction and common sense would indicate that he had a frightening level of lightsaber refinement. Now, stop trying to pull a or drop the point, we all know you want to be me, but I'm sorry to say that you don't quite have the skills to pull it off.



Not undeniably, and I never said as much, no. The point is, it gives them an immediate advantage and one that should be taken into account. At the end of the day, if a Jedi bases his lightsaber training around lightsaber-on-lightsaber dueling more so than another Jedi, his technical prowess is going to be far more relevant if the two of them were ever to fight. What's so hard to understand about that?



You know, I've started to notice that you just love to add unsupported bits of supplementary information to make your arguments seem more convincing, and because of that, I'm going to go out of my way to call you out on it everytime you do it.

Now, source where it's said that they sparred 'extensively,' or don't bring it up again.




Sure thing.

She was believed by Bane to possess the greater strength in the Force out of the two of them, was stated by the omniscient narrator to possess an instinctive link to the darkside that rivalled his, and has been learning Sith Magic (which has shown to have insane enhancements on the learner's rate of growth) for ten years, whereas Bane was only able to learn from lesser sources for under three years as of PoD. Common sense would indicate that she was easily more powerful than Bane's PoD incarnation, who was already capable of handling the Force on a planetary level, and as such, she's infinitely greater than Obi-Wan in the aspect of lightsaber combat that the two biggest authorities in the matter: Yoda and Kas'im, believed to be the real determining factor, and on top of that, she's been mastering Soresu with a weapon that Obi-Wan can't be said to be familiar with, and one that would logically be best suited for Soresu practitioners (given its one real weakness: precision, isn't a very significant aspect of Soresu, whereas its strong suite: power, would only add to her defencive stance and give her a stronger and more dominant neutral standing) for ten years.

Zannah wouldn't just beat Obi-Wan, she'd stomp him.



Within his era, yeah. Zannah, on the other hand, has been mastering Soresu for nearly as long, but on top of that, possesses a massive technical advantage in the form of her unfamiliar and superior weapon, and of course, there's her titanic superiority in Force ability that is logically the most significant factor here. Yeah, Obi-Wan hasn't got a chance.



So because Obi-Wan's specific displays of Soresu have been better documented than Zannah's, he's somehow at an advantage? Great logic.



1. Invalid material.

2. Doesn't matter anyway, Zannah would be superior to Dooku as well for the very same reasons she's better than Obi-Wan.



He outclasses her, arguably, in one aspect: technical ability, but even that superiority's somewhat negated by Zannah's superior and unfamiliar weapon.

On the other hand, Zannah absolutely smashes him in what's considered by the biggest authorities to be and what is logically the real determining factor: Force ability.



Had no idea.



I wasn't arguing that he undeniably did, just saying that being renowned in such a way would indicate that he was a top tier Jedi, and one of the very best.



No, you haven't, all you've displayed is an inept application of the dictionary, and ridiculous attempts at Ipsedixitism.

Now as I said earlier, prove - undeniably - that the term fits your interpretation, and only your interpretation, or drop the point.




Their "machine-based reflexes" fail miserably when stacked up to precognition and Force enhanced reflexes, and their ability to wield their weapons faster than the eye can see is nothing special considering this is a setting where Jedi Padawans can move so quickly that they appear virtually invisible to human eyes (Obi-Wan in TPM).



For the record, don't think that I believe that the Magnaguards suck or anything, because I don't. I'd rate them on the level of a low tier Jedi Master, easily, but Fisto's defeat of two of them doesn't truly change the fact that a BM powered Sarro is logically his firm superior. It does nothing to bridge the gap that everything we know about Sarro has created.

That he didn't outright say the same thing about those that you mentioned doesn't mean that he would have felt differently. And again, back to what you were saying, you were making him out to be in awe of him, when he clearly didn't view him as even an individual threat whatsoever.



LOL. We all know you love to appeal to authority, but I'd suggest you stick to doing it with the Nick Gillard's of the LFL world, and not random KMC members.



Firstly, either respond to this, or concede. Ignoring it won't make it go away:

1. I've already explained why the canonicity of that quote should be brought into question; it immediately goes on to say that the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' just didn't have what it takes to defeat Sidious, in response to a battle between the two that depicted Sidious kicking Yoda's ass all over the place, which clearly contradicts the movie. Now before you go on about narration and character thoughts not being subject to retcon, they are when they're dependant on invalid events, which is exactly what's the case.

Secondly, it would appear that insane level of 'lol'ing you've been performing is interfering with your ability to think. How 'devastatingly powerful' a being is has everything to do with how devastatingly they are able to apply their power. Yoda, having lived, fought against the darkness, and championed the light for centuries has simply been in a better position to be more devastating than nearly any other Jedi, and as such, the sheer fact that he's been able to fight the darkness for such a long period of time could have everything to do with how devastatingly powerful he was.

Of course, I'm not saying that such an interpretation has to be the correct one, but it's your burden of proof, and you're clearly incapable of proving how your interpretation is the only one that fits, and that mine is undeniably not the case.



1. As you said, it wasn't first hand teaching.

2. The qualities of a teacher don't even come close to correlating with the qualities of the teacher's student. Simply being great doesn't make you a great teacher. For example, Hoth, one of the greatest Jedi - arguably the greatest - of the Army of Light gave first hand teaching to someone who turned out to be arguably one of the most laughable Jedi in the Order's entire history (Johun). His character was literally made to show the readers just how badly Jedi could potentially suck.



It was Vaapad that was labelled "deadliest," not Mace Windu. Not that a case can't be made for Mace Windu being one of the deadliest Jedi ever, the point is, there isn't a quote in existence that states as much, and you shouldn't quote nonexistent statements.



Most? So you're actually able to define exactly how many Jedi would qualify as "one of the greatest," and can see that the PT Jedi mentioned in such a way represent the majority of such a number? Remarkable work Sidi-Boy, really. Now, for those who haven't actually heard an explanation as of yet: prove - undeniably - that the few Jedi explained in such a way represent the majority.



This is laughable. Again, refer to the above. The ability of a Master is nowhere near being fully testament to his student, and it works the same the other way around as well. Being the Chosen One and being very talented is what receives the credit for Anakin being as exceptional as he was. Not his Master, and not his Order.



Again, prove that the few PT Jedi mentioned in such a way represent the majority, or even the modal average, of any Jedi who might qualify as "one of the greatest." The fact remains that you cannot give an accurate number of how many Jedi would qualify, and you apparently don't quite understand that the PT Jedi, being exposed in far more sources than those of any other Order, will have far greater opportunity to reveal their qualities and exploits than those of other eras. Just because more is documented about the PT Jedi in no way puts them on a level above any other Jedi Order.

Really Sidi, for those very reasons, this argument doesn't work. We don't have nearly the same amount of information on the AoL time period than we do on the PT time period, and when you have a galaxy wide, +20,000 year long organisation, those that qualify as "one of the greatest" likely number far higher than you actually think they do. Until you can actually substantiate that number, talking about this is pointless.

On the other hand, there is a way where we can compare both of the Orders where the lack of information on the AoL Order doesn't matter, and that's when we use concrete facts.

Fact: The AoL were trained primarily to combat opposing Force Users, whereas the Sith were believed extinct during the PT era, and emphasis on lightsaber dueling was at its lowest.

Fact: The AoL possess a far higher number of Jedi than the PT Order, meaning the top tier AoL Jedi would receive far greater competition for their top tier position than the Jedi in the PT Order would have, and meaning that the Light side of the Force (what Jedi draw on) would have been far stronger in the AoL era than it would have been in the PT era (especially considering the fact that the dark side had been growing stronger and diminishing the effects of the light side).

Fact: The AoL fought in the most devastating Jedi war there had ever been, against actual lightsaber wielding Sith, whereas the war experience of the PT Jedi was limited to the three year long Clone Wars that saw minimal Jedi-on-Sith/Dark Jedi Action.

Fact: The AoL possessed a warrior's mentality, whereas the PT Jedi considered themselves to be peacekeepers rather than soldiers.

I'm sorry, but you have no argument whatsoever. Logic would dictate that the Jedi of the Millenium long Jedi and Sith War were far greater, as a group, than the PT Jedi.



No, the PT Jedi has produced more recorded top-tier Jedi than any other Order of Jedi. The PT Jedi have also been featured in a multitude of comics and novels, whereas the AoL have been featured in two novels, one comic, and one short story.

Again, no conclusion can be drawn between the two Orders from this respect because there's no way of substantiating what it truly means to be "one of the greatest Jedi" in its entire +20,000 year history, and the fact that the PT Jedi are featured far more prominently in the EU than the AoL have means that they lack the opportunity to display as in comparison to the PT Jedi. The only way you can actually draw a conclusion between the two Orders is by doing what I have, and the PT Jedi get beaten by a mile.



No, he didn't. The possible interpretation to the quote that I presented was that GL may have been speaking with respect to the era of peace that the PT Jedi oversaw. All that Gideon posted evidence of is the darkside growing stronger, Palpatine rising in power, and their lack of numbers. None of that counters what I was saying about the era being one of peace.

And at the same time, the ratio of 'advanced teacher' and 'student furthering their training' can't be said to be any different either - at least, you don't have a logical standpoint in claiming that it was more favourable for the PT Jedi. What you need to understand is that the greater number alone doesn't change anything about teacher-student dynamics. Only the student-teacher ratio would do that, and the greater number can't be said to have any real effect on that ratio whatsoever. You have no argument.



Blind speculation. Worthless to bring up.



...Didn't even come close to crossing my mind until you brought up. Though, I have to say, I don't think your justification for it could have been any worse. So the fact that Yoda had been leading the Jedi for hundreds of years means that knowledge can't have been lost? Thanks for informing me.



No, it was their mentality as Jedi, their training that revolved around fighting Sith, their large numbers, and how strong the light side was during their era on top of their battle experience, that was, again, specific to lightsaber practitioners and darksided Force Users.



Right. The fact that they had been fighting in a war against the Sith for their entire lives, whereas the PT Jedi had received three years of war experience that saw minimal Force user-on-Force User action is almost completely irrelevant? That makes sense.



1. He had a low opinion of their ideals, and that was it. Kaan, someone who he had as low an opinion of as any of the other BoD, was later thought upon as a powerful figure by Bane, so clearly his low opinion of them had nothing to with their personal power or combat prowess.

2. Even if they did suck royal donkey dick as combatants like you appear to think, it's still battle experience against Force Sensitive Lightsaber Practitioners - a bit more beneficial to their dueling capabilities than a three year war against battle droids and mercenaries I'd say.



True, their knowledge of the dark side was somewhat limited, and the darkside was spread among too many Sith, but their level of combat prowess (which wasn't affected by any of that) was at its highest. Fighting the Jedi through brute military force was a double edged sword. The dark side was spread too thin, but at the same time, the Sith were better trained and more experienced at fighting Jedi than the collective Sith of any other Order.



Your appeal to ridicule amounts to nothing. They were trained to combat opposing Force Users in the most efficient and deadly way as they possibly could. They had been fighting the Sith for an entire millenium; even if these Sith were 'incompetent' as you described them, it's pretty clear that they knew how important it was to destroy them and wouldn't be taking them lightly.



Given he was renowned within his Order to only be equalled by few beings in the entire Galaxy, it's pretty clear that he was one of the very best lightsaber duelists in the entire Order. It's likely only Raskta was his superior. Agen, Saesee, and Kit on the other hand were clearly a good notch below the likes of Yoda, Mace Windu, Depa Billaba, Obi-Wan, Anakin, and can't be said to be above the likes of Plo Koon or Cin Drallig either, not to mentioned the likes of Sidious, Dooku, Assaj Ventress, Durge, General Grievous, or Sora Bulq.



Already been addressed. Until you can substantiate what being "one of the greatest" Jedi in the Galaxy wide Order's +20,000 year long history, and prove that Sarro -- given his reputation and proven abilities -- wouldn't qualify, you have no argument.



Already have. The light side of the Force is said to be at its strongest when spread over large numbers of Jedi. The number of Jedi being far lower during the PT era, and the darkside weakening the Light Side of the Force and diminishing the Jedi's ability to use the Force, would indicate that the Light Side of the Force was far more potent in the AoL times.



She hasn't displayed it, but as I've proven, she definitely possesses it.

1. By Bane's own admission, she possesses strength in the Force that surpasses his own.

Now, that alone wouldn't be conclusive. How her length of experience and training stacks up to his matters a hell of a lot as well, which is what's so crucial about piece of information number:

2. She had been training for ten years, over seven more years than Bane's PoD incarnation.

Still not conclusive, however. Whether she would be able to progress as quickly as Bane had would still be up for question, which is why we have info #:

3. The omniscient narrator declares her instinctive grasp of the dark side of the Force to rival Bane's own.

Which is more than supported in the JvS comic, considering how -- before receiving any training whatsoever -- she was capable of instakilling two Jedi at will, and defending herself and her immediate surroundings from the BoD's Force Lightning Storm Ritual, which was described as consuming everything in its path, and shown to literally decimate Jedi Knights, mass infrastructure and the Forest environment.

So clearly her rate of growth was at least close to Bane's. Now of course, while that seemse pretty conclusive, there still is one question. How does her knowledge of the Force compare?

4. She had been learning Sith Magic for her entire length of training, in comparison to Bane's two years of studying from lesser sources.

Yeah... now it's conclusive. There's simply no way Bane's PoD self can be argued to be more powerful than her. His Ro2 incarnation? Without question. But not his PoD self. That she hasn't displayed as much (though it's not as if she hasn't displayed anything; her sorcery was able to break through the Force defences of trained Jedi with ease, and she was capable of waltzing into the Jedi Temple and shielding her Force alignment from every Jedi she came across) is insignificant.



Again, Ipsedixitism doesn't win debates. You may think that you've proven up, but truth is, you don't know what proof is.



No, their attunement to the Force tells us how effectively they would be able to apply their swordsmanship in combat; their swordsmanship itself purely measures how good they are at using the weapon itself.



The point you would be making is?

Were you not just agreeing with this earlier? And now you're disagreeing with a nonexistent argument? "If anything, it was inferior" - that's it? Wonderful argument.

Now again, their training was focused around fighting against opposing Force Users, and lightsaber duelists, and fighting as soldiers in wartime. Not only is it far more battle orientated than that of the PT Jedi, but far more specific to fighting against other Force Users and Lightsaber Practitioners.



Good God you're stoopid. So you're trained specifically to fight your most hated enemies in a war that's been going on for a milennium, you fight in that very war your entire life, your only goal in life is to in-part aid the defeat of said enemies though brute force, and somehow you're not going to possess more of a warrior's mentality than a bunch of peaceful, passive Jedi that lived the most of their life in a time of peace, and for the most part, spent as much time acting as ambassadors than being combatants?



Well I didn't quite phrase it like a five year old, no, but it's already been proven. The AoL possessed a higher number of Jedi for the Light Side of the Force to be spread over, and didn't receive the effects of the dark side of the Force actually making the Light Side of the Force weaker, like the PT Jedi did.



Why do I get the impression you're trying awefully hard to be like me?

And no, it speaks highly for the few top Jedi of the Order (which Sarro most certainly was), given that there would be a larger number of Jedi that said position puts him over. The greater the competition for a position, the more it suggests about the person who takes the position.



Are you being purposely stupid? The Jedi fought in the Jedi-Sith war their entire lifes, against lightsaber practitioners and opposing Force Users, on a near day-to-day basis, at least during their active service. The Jedi of the Clone Wars acted, in part, as behind the scene generals, in a war that lasted three years, that saw minimal Jedi-on-Sith/Dark Jedi action.



Ah, so the Jedi-Sith War didn't fully require all of the Jedi's numbers, huh?? That's the explanation? That would of course be why the AoL were so desperate for more numbers that they started recruiting children with only the slightest semblance of Force potential purely to aid their war effort. Yeah, you're absolutely right; they simply possessed way too many Jedi on their hands and had no idea what to do with them. Makes sense.



Right, let's compare:

I say that given that Agen can only be said to shine in one area: his technical ability, and that Sarro's ability is elaborated on and held in high praise on almost every level, it's only logical to assume that Sarro has him beaten in every other area.

You say that because the BoD, with the exception of Bane and Kas'im, displayed nothing, they're all a bunch of incompetent fools that suck ass in combat, even though their Order was the most militant collective group of Sith there had ever been.

1. The difference is that my assumptions in the face of the unknown have all been neutral, whereas all of your's have been enormously one sided.

2. With Agen's unknown level of ability, nothing points to them being either above or below average, whereas with the BoD, they were at least one of the most militant group of Force users ever, and as such, their combat prowess would likely be well above average, even if the dark side that they drew on and their knowledge of the Sith ways was somewhat limited.

Yeah, as far as false comparisons go, you're slowly but surely becoming the man. Keep at it.



Well don't you just love a false conclusion!



You get "most" from "multiple?"



No. The claim that I can't be bothered to support has absolutely no effect on my argument whatsoever, and something that from a debating standpoint, I never had to bring up and support in the first place, given you were the one making the claim that Mace Windu had mastered very single lightsaber form.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yes. Only that you have to prove that, instead of no longer making it his emphasis, he 'completely abandoned it', and never used it in combat- which is contradicted by how he utilizied it against Dooku.

No, there's no contradiction. He utilised it against Count Dooku in a stand alone instance to trick him into believing he was an extremely poor combatant and a practitioner of Ataru. That doesn't change the fact that he chose to stop practising with it, and decided to never use it again in a regular circumstanced battle situation, due to the form's defencive vulnerabilities.



Wishful fanon. Nothing indicates that Obi-Wan was in any way favoured in such ways after TPM.



Not denying that, just not as superior as ten years would realistically make somebody, due to the fact that he started afresh with his new, chosen form of combat, and only spent half the time practising it as he had done with Ataru. His general experience, and Force ability, and "cunning" may have gone up, but his technique would have realistically gone down by quite a bit.



This begs for proof. Arguing from personal belief is not a valid argument.



Well at least you're recognising that it was a Force enhanced rage, which was exactly my point.



He only put Maul on the defencive twice; the first time, after he had knocked Maul off the platform, and was able to keep him on the defencive by preventing him from regaining his composure; the second time, purely because of the newly regained strength his momentary meditation provided him. As for the ease of Maul's win, that's up for debate, but it doesn't matter whatsoever as to the point you were making.

As I said, you cannot substantiate Obi-Wan's level of ability as of AotC, ergo, Kit Fisto outclassing him is meaningless. You cannot substantiate exactly how much his Force augmented rage aided him in his battle with Maul, and you cannot substantiate his improvement during the ten years between TPM and AotC.

It was sufficient to make up for the immense gap between he and Maul, and the ten years likely saw a good decrease in his technical ability anyway. Again, you cannot substantiate how close AotC Obi-Wan is to his force empowered TPM self, ergo, bringing up his performance against Maul during TPM proves nothing.



From a literary standpoint, that is - for all intents and purposes - exactly what you were saying. Your point was that Jedi of renown will naturally be well learned on Jedi History.



So because Yoda was arguably extremely well learned on the matter, Obi-Wan is as well via association? Yeah, there's a reason why honour by association is a logical fallacy. Being highly familiar with Yoda doesn't mean that his presumable high level of knowledge on Jedi Lore is going to rub off on you.



Your point? Mace Windu didn't make the claim, and neither did Shaak Ti for that matter, not to mention anyway that Mace Windu isn't exactly someone who can be argued to be especially well learned on Jedi Lore either. Only really the Ancient Jedi and the historians can.



Well, technically speaking, as the movie shows us, there was no such thought process or choice selection whatsoever. Mace Windu and his Jedi party were all ready to go confront Palpatine and ask him to lay down his emergency powers, Anakin reveals the fact that he's a Sith, and with the very same party, he immediately leaves anyway. No such feedback from Yoda or real thought put into it whatsoever.



So... it takes more than just technical piloting skill to be one of the greatest pilots in a Galaxy full of technically skilled pilots (Jango Fett templates)? Yeah... that makes sense.

Being serious now, I never claimed that Saesee didn't possess anything more than technical piloting ability; as a Force User, he automatically possesses two extreme advantages in the form of precognition and enhanced reflexes. What I'm saying is that you cannot undeniably prove that an above average level of Force ability would be absolutely required to be as good as Saesee was, or that a high level of technical ability couldn't make up for a poor affinity to the Force.



1. Even if that's the case (which you haven't provided any proof for), that would just undermine Saesee's high position as a pilot within the Order in the first place (which is where his real credit comes from, not simply "impressing Anakin Skywalker".

2. A high level of talent could easily make up for a poor level of training. That Saesee may not have been very well trained does not deny the fact that he may have possessed astonishing technical ability as a pilot, that made up for a lack of exceptional Force ability in making him as good a pilot as he was.



Argument from personal belief, logical fallacy.

Now prove up on your claim that Saesee Tiin was in any way above average with the Force, or drop the point.



No, you haven't.



Prove up on the assertion that little emphasis was placed on piloting, or that there weren't individual classes for it as part of Jedi training, because you haven't provided any proof whatsoever. And then substantiate how Saesee needs to have been well trained to be a great pilot in the first place, and that he wasn't a prodigy and amazingly talented.



Fallacy of Division.



1. He already receives a tremendous advantage in the first place for simply being a Force User (whether he was an average Force User, below Average Force User, or Above Average Force User, he receives the same benefits), in the form of his enhanced reflexes and precognition, which could easily make up for a lack of technical ability in comparison to others not sensitive to the Force.

2. Even if Saesee wasn't very well trained himself (you've yet to prove up on that), an amazing talent could easily make up for that, and put him on par from a technical standpoint with such trained pilots. Or at least close enough for his force ability to bridge the gap.

At the end of the day, your argument that "amazing Force Using Pilot = Amazing Force User" remains completely unsupported, and idiotic. As it stands, nothing points to Saesee being in any way above average in any area other than his ability as a pilot, and his technical prowess with a lightsaber.



Well you've been wrong the last 500 times you stated it, and guess what: you're still wrong. Again, if how fine a swordsman is measures how effectively you can use it in combat, than the time freezing Hiro Nakamura or Smallville's Flash would be considered finer swordsmen than these amazingly skilled Jedi Masters. Makes total sense.

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/7528/shutupab0.jpg

I don't think Arnold's vocabulary is that good.

Originally posted by Taven
Lol, I think someone here's taking obsession to a whole new level. I don't even so much as try to initiate a single conversation with the guy, and the weirdo won't leave me alone. It would be cute if he was a chick, but sadly, he isn't, and hasn't been one for a very, very long time.

Oh, Jesus. Nebaris, you remind me a lot of Jeremey Hunsicker, who fronts a Journey tribute band called Frontiers. You try to make yourself well known, popular, and respected by parrotting someone who is ultimately more brilliant and more accomplished than yourself, as he attempts to mimic the great Steve Perry. See, I pointed out correctly how you continue to Google my name and various usernames and attempt to hack into my accounts for no other purpose than to become closer to me; everyone is aware of your stalker-esque obsessions. And you turn around and attempt to call me obsessed? Please. At least Hunsicker realizes that Perry will always outshine him. You're like one of those obscenely twisted and psychotic fans who shot John Lennon and if it weren't for the fact that you spend all of your time in your mother's basement on these forums, I might be worried that you would try to kill me.



Of course he didn't direct a passing word at me. He's much too frightened for a direct debate and prefers to Google from the shadows of his mother's basement.



It's not an implication. It's an observation. More duelists from the PT era are considered among the greatest ever than ones from the RoT era.



No comparison can be drawn and yet you're the one claiming that the RoT-era Jedi are obviously better. That's a comparison. Or does basic logic elude you? This is what I refer to when I mention your double standards. You're pathetic, Nebaris, and you seem to forget that we do things my way around here. My way involves single standards. You conform or you lose. Hell, even if you did, chances are you'd still lose.



You can't improve perfection, Nebaris, thus I remain the same.



Not good enough. If what you say is true, then you can't claim that your interpretation is correct, either. Thus, if no comparison can be drawn, you can't conclude RoT-era Jedi are better. Another double standard.



Wrong, it means that the quote isn't referring to numbers or peace. Thus combat. Lucas > you.



Again, Palpatine dominated galactic politics through his networks and contacts under his own command and that of his alter ego, Darth Sidious. He was de facto galactic leader long before he ever claimed official leadership. Meaning that he was already directing the course of the galaxy. Meaning? It's not referring to peace.



LOL. Beginning counts for two hundred years? You've reached new levels of depressingly impotent, Nebaris. The dark side was rising for two hundred years for the preparation of Palpatine. Meaning? It's not referring to peace.



Palpatine's rise to power, the Jedi's dwindling numbers, the dark side's ascension, the Stark Hyperspace War, various diplomatic disputes = no peace.



You... do realize that no one finds this funny?



It cuts me.

There's a website petitioning every username you've ever used to be entered in the Dictionary as an antonym of funny.

Originally posted by Gideon
You... do realize that no one finds this funny? In fact, everyone finds it downright moronic.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
I don't think Arnold's vocabulary is that good. And neither is yours

... wat?

My god, Nebaris. I honestly can't be bothered to destroy 4 pages of ranting the same things over and over again.

So, let's say, your argument is based on the following:

The AoL Jedi Order is far superior to the PT Jedi Order. Your reasoning? More experience fighting with Sith, better warrior mentality, and somehow superior training. And that little thing is absolutely ridiculous- because, for example, Count Dooku, a person who literally spent decaded refining his form of choice- that certain for that, incidentally, focused the most on saber-to-saber dueling- was taken aback by Anakin Skywalker's ability and ferocity during the points of AotC, despite that same Anakin having never fought a Sith in his life and being a mere Padawan. In addition, Dooku was overwhelmed and forced to run for his life when he was confronted by Yoda, a person who had little to no experience in the last known centuries fighting Sith (for all we know).

As for the better 'superior warrior's mentality'? Ridiculous. Yoda, the most powerful Jedi in history up until that point, considered himself a teacher and a sage rather than a fighter, and was still the strongest Jedi of his order and of all time (superior to Raskta, Sarro, and co.).

As for that final point about superior training is, also, ludicrious, because, as you said, the Order grew to recruiting children to their war effort- it's logical that during the time of the war, training was as rushed as possible, only giving the 'average Jedi' far more limited time to study in comparison to PT Times, when the Jedi had far more time to refine and train themselves.

Now then- I know that your double standards cause you to apply the whole 'absence of proof' only when relevant to your argument and to your sides, but let's do a comparison of the 'uber Jedi' featured in both the AoL and in the PT Era, shall we?

PT Era:

-Anakin Skywalker
-Mace Windu
-Obi-Wan Kenobi
-Yoda
-Sora Bulq
-Depa Billaba
-Saesee Tiin
-Kit Fisto
-Agen Kolar
-Shaak Ti
-Count Dooku

AoL:

-Raskta
-Maybe Sarro
-Maybe Farfalla

Considering what we've seen- and according to you, we argue 'virtue of what we know', it would appear that the Prequel Jedi have a far greater number of effective duelists when compared to basically any other Jedi Order, the AoL included. As for Lucas' 'prime of the Jedi' statement? He said it when he was making a direct reference to a fighting context- in addition, someone's 'prime' is defined as following in dictionary.com:

"the period or state of greatest perfection or vigor of human life: a man in his prime."

Yes. 'Prime' is defined as the period of time when a certain thing has achieved perfection, or at least the thing closest to it during it's 'lifetime'. It has absolutely nothing to do 'peaceful times'.

As for your points about Zannah, you think she is superior to the PoD incarnation of Bane, Dooku, and Obi-Wan due to the fact that she had more raw power than Bane and had more training, right? I don't think so. I'll first make a case for Obi-Wan:

While Obi-Wan did not display any particularly special force talents in the context of a pure force fight (so thus, Zannah will stomp him in a pure force fight), he had indeed displayed the ability, on multiple times, to completely let the force do the work for him (fight against Grievous, against Magnaguards), giving him an incredible chance of survival in a pure lightsaber duel- in addition, he was hailed by Mace Windu, a person with over 50 years of experience, to be 'The Master of Soresu'. He also had FAR more time to refine himself when put in comparison to Zannah- he was capable of blocking a prodigious 20 strikes per second and was also capable of handing assaults from the likes of Dooku and Anakin Skywalker. Sorry, in terms of lightsaber dueling? He's superior.

As for Dooku, you have even more of a case. He trained himself over decades to become the ultimate display of refinery and grace in lightsaber combat (about a million times better than Sarro)- he was capable of completely curbstomping Obi-Wan Kenobi in combat, despite said Obi-Wan (in his AotC incarnation) being a uniquely talented Jedi of high renown. He also had immense talent in force engagements, being able to easily tool Asajj Ventress, an immensely skilled Dark Jedi via the force, and also had more than ten years of training under Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord in history- he both has far more dark side knowledge than Zannah, as Sidious had access to a far greater range of information than Bane, and was also far more knowledgable. Sorry, Dooku is obviously superior to Zannah.

Now then, to finally destroy the little thing about Kolar's technical skill. How 'great' someone is, with a blade, in Star Wars depends just as much on force attunement and abilities as it does upon technical skill. The end.

As for that little point about Yoda not being the most devastatingly powerful foe of the darkness, it was issued when in reference to a battle with the Dark Lord of the Sith- in addition, 'devastatingly powerful' means that he possessed the most devastating power out of any Jedi in history. Sorry, I can't even think of another way to interpret that certain quote. In addition- the fight only implies that Sidious had the advantage in the duel, it hardly makes the details of the battle clear. And when you look at it from a certain point of view, Sidious did possess the advantage at certain times in the duel depicted in the movie, such as when he forced Yoda to jump around like a crazy fog in the pod-throwing scene, and later when he disarmed him rather casually.

Gideon, has Publius posted any more parts of the Sidious essay, I believe you said the next one would deal with him being the dark lord of the sith.

Hey Noobaris, come mess with my account. I want a justification to shut off your phone line so you don't come back online.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

So, I'm expected to believe that if someone fought more often against people who wielded lightsabers, they are automatically better than people who had studied primarily to combat blaster technology? The PT Jedi have also sparred extensively with their peers, so they obviously had experience with fighting people wielding lightsabers.


Precisely. They SPARRED with their peers. People sparring are not trying to kill each other. They trained in lightsabre duelling basically for tradition and to get a deeper understanding of how to use it properly, not because they needed to know how to battle a lightsabre-wielding foe.

That's like comparing a swordsman who grew up and was trained to use a sword in an era when sword skills were vital for survival with a fencer who studies swordsmanship as a hobby. Which is going to be best in actual combat?

Yes, they "obviously had experience with fighting people wielding lightsabers." Just no-where near to the same level as Sarro, Raskta and the Jedi of their era. No-one is claiming that Kit, Agen etc were useless swordsmen. It's just common sense that the Jedi whose training was focused around battling lightsabre-wielders and have extensive experience in doing so, will be better at duelling than Jedi who went through their training never expecting to have to fight another lightsabre-wielder and have comparitively very little experience in doing so in actual combat. Why is this so hard to understand?

You seem very biased againt the 'Old Republic' Jedi to me.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon


Prove it.


Path of Destruction page 287-

'The constant battling of the Sith since the beginning of recorded history served a necessary purpose. It kept the power of the dark side concentrated in a few powerful individuals.'

Something like this happened in a novel I read, a person who had spent ages duelling and had a crap load of natural ability went up against a person who spent his whole life fighting and gaining combat experience. The duelling guy only won becuase his opponant was about 60 yrs old and then only becuase he used an incredibly reckless move (he pretended to get his sword stuck in the ground, leaving himself open, then got him in the groin, just).

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's kind of my point. If not for Johun, Zannah would be dead.

She would have been killed against Sarro if not for Johun, this is unquestionable.

All true. But you seem to think that if Johun hadn't been there she would have died instantly. Not so. Even without Johun getting in the way, Zannah was able to fend off Sarro for a good amount of time.

Suppose they had fought one-on-one, without Johun or anyone else. Would Zannah have been killed? Yes. Would she have instantly been cut down like wheat? No.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
All true. But you seem to think that if Johun hadn't been there she would have died instantly. Not so. Even without Johun getting in the way, Zannah was able to fend off Sarro for a good amount of time.

Suppose they had fought one-on-one, without Johun or anyone else. Would Zannah have been killed? Yes. Would she have instantly been cut down like wheat? No.
It is not simply Sarro she's up against now, though: It's three experience blade masters accustomed to fighting in tandem. If Johun was a skilled as Sarro and the two were coordinated, do you think Zannah would have lasted a moment?

Taven, where did you prove that more jedi=more powerful lightside?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It is not simply Sarro she's up against now, though: It's three experience blade masters accustomed to fighting in tandem. If Johun was a skilled as Sarro and the two were coordinated, do you think Zannah would have lasted a moment?

Maybe not, but the fact remains that in 1-1 combat Zannah was able to hold Sarro at bay without being killed instantly.

Besides those three-

a) Don't have the advantage of Battle Meditation.

b) Have plenty of experience fighting in tandem against droids, mercenaries etc and precisely zero experience fighting against Sith. Johun and Sarro would have experience fighting Sith during their apprenticeship while serving in Hoth's army. BoD Sith, but better than nothing.

Now I'll admit that between them they could kill Zannah, but I don't think it would happen immediately, seeing as her style is all about defence.

Plus she was able to briefly fend off an enraged Bane with absolutely no warning. She barely had time to draw and ignite her blades when he attacked.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Maybe not, but the fact remains that in 1-1 combat Zannah was able to hold Sarro at bay without being killed instantly.
That is irrelevant as she is nothing fighting one on one here

They've never needed it, it would seem

They're both rather young men. When would they have fought Sith in the war? Any Sith would've made short work of Johun "I can't even beat a Twi'lek assassin" Othone.
All three of these guys are war veterans several times over, extremely skilled, fast, strong in the force and again, accustomed to fighting in tandem.

HOW is she going to defend against three of the best blademasters the Order has ever seen for more than an instant?

If Zannah didn't think Bane would throw himself at her when the Umbarans and Hetton were dead she was a fool. Add that to Bane being so enraged, he'd lost his head.

All three of these Jedi are fast and strong. Zannah will raise her saber to block one blow and be cut down from behind. Are you honestly saying she can hang with this three anywhere near as long as she did against Johun and Sarro? Any one of them would have a decent chance of defeating her.

There is a chance that Sorro fought sith as he was "Raskta's padawan on Ruusan," as the novel says but that is the only mention of him fighting sith(or chance for him to fight sith) before his duel with Zannah I believe.

Couldn't Zannah use a Sith spell on them? Or would there not be enough time?

Why would she be able to? She never uses it against a prepared fighter, let alone when she's fighting for her life

Or even if she did, what are the chances that it will break their force defences?

ya it would be the arrest team, all 4 jedi are masters and i'm sure mace is on par (if not close) to bane's level so ya....bane's anus would be broken

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why would she be able to? She never uses it against a prepared fighter, let alone when she's fighting for her life

As Kas'im reveals in PoD, when a Force User enters a close combat confrontation, they immediately put up a Force Shield, so as to prevent the enemy from directing a sudden attack at them, or using the Force to mess with their weapons, which would mean that Zannah would have still had to break through Sarro's defences to harm him with her sorcery, and she did so with ease.



It's not irrelevant, it was still an expression of ability, irregardless of the fact that it was displayed in a slightly different situation.



Well I don't know, it might have come in handy that time that Sidious owned all their asses in seconds.



Given the sheer number of Sith, the fact that the war was fought almost exclusively between the Jedi and Sith, and the fact that war was described as near constant and almost a day to day thing, it would have been extremely unlikely that they would have never come across Sith before. And even if they hadn't, Sarro was still one of the very most combat effective Jedi of his time, putting him above an entire legion of Jedi who would have received battle experience against the Sith.



War veterans several times over? They only ever thought in the Clone Wars, a war that lasted three years, one that saw minimal action against the Sith and Dark Jedi, and one where Jedi were known to act as Generals behind the scenes (and in Saesee's case, fight the Seperatists from the seat of his star fighter).



Very true, though I'll point out that that's the only area that any of them were shown to shine in. On the other other hand, their combat training was focused almost exclusively around combating battle droids and mercenaries, and their experience against Dark Jedi/Sith was virtually nonexistent.



Hopeful assumption. All that we can say about them is that they were technically extremely gifted.



Hopeful assumption. All that we can say about them is that they were technically extremely gifted.



Against a single, Force Sensitive lightsaber practitioner? Not so much. There's also the fact that the single time they were up against such an opponent, they displayed some of the poorest judgement a team of Jedi has yet, when they simply allowed Palpatine to make the first move. To prevent Zannah from directing her sorcery at them, they would have to initiate combat in a heartbeat, and from what they've displayed, they're nowhere near as impulsive as that.



Constantly move around, work around them and limit them from fighting her as a group?



Well that's exactly what she didn't think would happen, as she expresses herself, so CM's point still stands, but out of curiosity, how would that make her a fool? How was she to expect Bane to go off on her like that? From her perspective, Bane would have been far more likely to ask her why she'd betrayed him or what was going on before jumping her like that. Bane's a rational man, and Zannah would have only expected him to react in such a way. She was, after all, completely neutral throughout the entire battle, and just as passive by the end of it; it's not like she was forcing Bane to act.



Right, because deadly duels between Force users have always proven to be that straightforward.



Unlike Sarro , the Jedi Masters can't be said to be anywhere near as impulsive as to prevent her from directing her Sith Magic at them and taking them down one by one, and unlike Sarro , they won't be boosted tremendously by Battle Meditation. They also can't be said to be familiar with her style of lightsaber, nor can they be said to have been trained to combat someone like Zannah, or to have experienced it. They also can't be said to be anything but average in any area other than their technical ability.



Laughable. She's miles beyond all of them in Force ability (which Yoda and Kas'im, the two biggest authorities on lightsaber combat, have declared the real key to victory in a lightsaber confrontation), and wields a weapon they can't be said to be familiar with (which would in part negate their technical superiority). She would defeat any of them in lightsaber combat, own all three of them in a Force contest, and defeat them all in an all out confrontation, albeit in a potentially close battle.

Originally posted by Taven
As Kas'im reveals in PoD, when a Force User enters a close combat confrontation, they immediately put up a Force Shield, so as to prevent the enemy from directing a sudden attack at them, or using the Force to mess with their weapons, which would mean that Zannah would have still had to break through Sarro's defences to harm him with her sorcery, and she did so with ease.
Yes, and the sudden loss of empowerment and TURNING AROUND in battle meant Sarro wasn't protecting himself. Brilliant, Sarro.



In other words, irrelevant.



Probably. When Palpatine wanted them dead, they died, though. Being killed by the most powerful Sith Lord is SUCH a demerit...


He was practically a child and a Padawan at the point of Ruusan, the only battle he might have had a chance to BE in when they started using children was one where there were noticeably no Sith Lords fighting.
Try again.


Stark Hyperspace, Yinchorri rebellion...
all of them had seen lots of action up close and personal. Especially Kit.
See when they took downw the Bounty Hunter's Guild for one



Point being? They're still acknowledges as master sabermen and Mace considered all of them incredible fighters. As Agen brought down Quinlan Vos and Mace was known to spar with them on a regular basis, I trust his word



As opposed to Sarro, right. The three of them all display great speed in the Republic comics. Kit in the Cestus Deception, too.



Despite them all being described as strong in the Force.



Zannah is nowhere near as fast as Palpatine, 1. She is nowhere near as skilled as a Sith apprentice, 2 and 3? All of them were at the ready for combat. As this is a vs. match, they'll be able to cover for one another if she tries anything, let alone Mace.



Three experienced Jedi accustomed to fighting as a group unlike with Sarro and Johun where Zannah ONLY survived because of Johun.



Bane had just been injured, was clearly enraged and thought she betrayed him. Why wouldn't she be prepared when she'd especially just have STUDIED HIS MOVES? I wonder!



Because Zannah has ever used her Sith Sorcery right off in a duel, either. No, she waited until her opponent was noticeably unfocused on her



Wait, wait, wait...knowing they're fighting her, they won't be ready with the Force? When she apparently couldn't do this from the bat to JOHUN? When she only survived BECAUSE of Johun?
They won't be boosted tremendously? They don't need to be. None of them are just knights and all have the backing to be at least as good as a BM empowered Sarro...and haven't been 'trained to combat one like Zannah?' All have displayed that they're proficient in saber abilities-I trust Mace's word over yours, btw, and Yoda's- and Zannah's style is Soresu...all three of them are intimately familiar with the best Soresu user who ever lived.



Yes? Prove it? Zannah's force feats are...sith sorcery which she's only used on non-Force sensitives and an unempowered distracted Jedi-since when do Force Shields worked when you're not FOCUSING ON THE BATTLE?
Zannah is laughably inexperienced, too, btw. Far moreso than three veteran Jedi masters

Which is why quite a few Jedi in the PT era used one? The Jedi Brutes, for starters...And considering they've all encountered Asajj Ventress...and know Jedi masters who were experienced with a DBL...And can get eachother's back...

I'm going out of the country, so I'll have neither the time nor the inclination to deal with you, so I'll leave it to Escape.

Frankly put, though: You're such a sad little fanboy.

Tisk, tisk, Nebaris.

This is the predicament before us, regarding the banter: you think you're funny and I'm not, I think I'm funny and you're not, and even if we ignore the fact that I'm greater than you in all virtues (I say virtues because, have no fear, you remain unmitigated in your accomplishments in stalking and delusion), we have the fact that only one of us here has ever been lauded, praised, and admired for his wit. That would be me. The other person in this scenario has only been mocked and ridiculed for it. Oh, except for Darth Exodus. He happens to like you, though it seems you have a great deal in common. Your mother called to tell me that when you two get together for sleep overs and washes the sheets, she finds curious stains on them, plus the crumpled cover of Path of Destruction and Rule of Two. And not only does she find you unfunny, but she also happens to consider you an abomination, a mistake. A cosmic reminder why sometimes, killing infants is the right thing. Translation: you can't keep up with the banter and revert to "LULZ I R FUNNY BUT U R NOT!" and everyone is inclined to disagree with you and agree with me.

The predicament before us regarding the logic is much simpler: I have a quote issued from George Lucas that the prequel trilogy is the prime of the Jedi. You say it refers to peace; I prove that the dark side had been in ascension for two hundred years and Palpatine's rise to power (as well as the Clone Wars) were on the brink. Furthermore, a reference to the trilogy does not just apply to its first movie. Meanwhile, even if it did refer to peace (which it doesn't), what does that mean? The Golden Age of the Sith was in a time where the Republic had no idea where they were, an age of relative peace. Ergo, they must suck? LOL, you laud and praise their feats even now. Concluding, there are more documented upper tier Jedi and Force users in the prequel trilogy era than any other. So, your juvenile demands to "LULZ SUBSTANTIATE" everything are being drowned out.

Raise your game or get off the court. Don't expect responses from the rest of us until you hold your end of this game. But given your dreadful win/loss ratio, I'm not holding my breath.

nebaris: the only thing i'm genuinely curious about is how you manage to post 3 page responses in every debate all the time: who the heck has that much time???!?

Originally posted by Gideon
Tisk, tisk, Nebaris.

This is the predicament before us, regarding the banter: you think you're funny and I'm not, I think I'm funny and you're not, and even if we ignore the fact that I'm greater than you in all virtues (I say virtues because, have no fear, you remain unmitigated in your accomplishments in stalking and delusion), we have the fact that only one of us here has ever been lauded, praised, and admired for his wit. That would be me. The other person in this scenario has only been mocked and ridiculed for it. Oh, except for Darth Exodus. He happens to like you, though it seems you have a great deal in common. Your mother called to tell me that when you two get together for sleep overs and washes the sheets, she finds curious stains on them, plus the crumpled cover of Path of Destruction and Rule of Two. And not only does she find you unfunny, but she also happens to consider you an abomination, a mistake. A cosmic reminder why sometimes, killing infants is the right thing. Translation: you can't keep up with the banter and revert to "LULZ I R FUNNY BUT U R NOT!" and everyone is inclined to disagree with you and agree with me.

The predicament before us regarding the logic is much simpler: I have a quote issued from George Lucas that the prequel trilogy is the prime of the Jedi. You say it refers to peace; I prove that the dark side had been in ascension for two hundred years and Palpatine's rise to power (as well as the Clone Wars) were on the brink. Furthermore, a reference to the trilogy does not just apply to its first movie. Meanwhile, even if it did refer to peace (which it doesn't), what does that mean? The Golden Age of the Sith was in a time where the Republic had no idea where they were, an age of relative peace. Ergo, they must suck? LOL, you laud and praise their feats even now. Concluding, there are more documented upper tier Jedi and Force users in the prequel trilogy era than any other. So, your juvenile demands to "LULZ SUBSTANTIATE" everything are being drowned out.

Raise your game or get off the court. Don't expect responses from the rest of us until you hold your end of this game. But given your dreadful win/loss ratio, I'm not holding my breath.

God DAMN... I must've been gone longer than I thought. When i was last here, you were saying that we should be respectful and not bash him so much. Not calling you a hypocrite though, as I'm sure he did something to provoke such an attack. Just a shocking turn of events is all. Good to see you in such rare form though.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
God DAMN... I must've been gone longer than I thought. When i was last here, you were saying that we should be respectful and not bash him so much. Not calling you a hypocrite though, as I'm sure he did something to provoke such an attack. Just a shocking turn of events is all. Good to see you in such rare form though.

To clarify, I've never been a proponent (nor have I ever implied as much) of unconditional etiquette and respect. It is conditional and the condition is that one's opponent must demonstrate the same respect or, at least, be deserving of it. Moreso than anyone on these forums, Nebaris has repeatedly demonstrated that he lives to post on these forums. He's ass deep in double digits in terms of how many accounts he's made and he refuses to leave; people who have lives would have given up a long time ago, even if they were bound by some sort of inferiority complex or vendetta. That is why no one has any respect for him here, because when he comes back, he tries to take a page out of someone else's book and present himself as something truly formidable. But instead of being impressed, we're like "Damn, you're annoying". He then criticises other people on what they do with their time, but why? No one here has come close to embodying the depth of truly pathetic as he has. And then there's that whole issue that the guy has been stalking me via the internet. For what purpose? His jokes are deplorable, an insult to comedy in general, and no one here (with the exception of Exodus) finds him amusing. Even asses like the legendary Dr. House or Alan Shore might be disliked, but they are respected and admired for their wit. Nebaris can't even accomplish that. He has no accolades to speak of.

You heard him, his excuse for one of his absences? The internet was down. Not "Oh, I've suddenly found a life" or "I went outside". He has no schedule or timeframe outside of his computer.

He'll come back with the same predictable diatribe, though. Once he summons the courage.

I didn't mean to imply that it was unconditional, not that i ever thought it would be. My only point really, and it was made more in jest than anything else, was that when I was last here, you had a little more patience with him. But like its been said, patience wears thin. I just haven't seen you insult someone (like that) in a long time. Not that i care, lol, i think it's funny.

And yes, I'm sure he'll come back with something reminiscent of previous posts.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That is irrelevant as she is nothing fighting one on one here


You claimed that Zannah was only able to fend off Sarro because of Johun getting in the way. I have proven that that is not the case, as she was able to fend off Sarro without being killed right away. Is it that hard to admit that you were wrong?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He was practically a child and a Padawan at the point of Ruusan, the only battle he might have had a chance to BE in when they started using children was one where there were noticeably no Sith Lords fighting.
Try again.

Nope. Johun was nineteen at the final battle of Ruusan. Sarro was a year older than him so he would have been twenty at the final battle.
Try again.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stark Hyperspace, Yinchorri rebellion...
all of them had seen lots of action up close and personal. Especially Kit.
See when they took downw the Bounty Hunter's Guild for one

None of which were as prolonged or intensive as the campaign on Ruusan. None of which featured any Sith.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
Three experienced Jedi accustomed to fighting as a group unlike with Sarro and Johun where Zannah ONLY survived because of Johun.

Accustomed to fighting as a group against droids and mercenaries, not Sith. And as I've already proved the "Zannah ONLY survived because of Johun" is false.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Bane had just been injured, was clearly enraged and thought she betrayed him. Why wouldn't she be prepared when she'd especially just have STUDIED HIS MOVES? I wonder!

Bane was an intelligent, rational man and Zannah did not take any action against him herself. She expected him to demand an explanation, not simply rush her. Bane himself later reflects that under normal circumstances (without the orbalisks boosting his rage), demanding an explanation is exactly what he would have done.




Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wait, wait, wait...knowing they're fighting her, they won't be ready with the Force? When she apparently couldn't do this from the bat to JOHUN? When she only survived BECAUSE of Johun?

False, as I've repeatedly proved.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
They won't be boosted tremendously? They don't need to be. None of them are just knights and all have the backing to be at least as good as a BM empowered Sarro...and haven't been 'trained to combat one like Zannah?' All have displayed that they're proficient in saber abilities-I trust Mace's word over yours, btw, and Yoda's- and Zannah's style is Soresu...all three of them are intimately familiar with the best Soresu user who ever lived.

Proficient in sabre abilities, except that they've never fought a Sith and went through their entire training never believing they'd have to fight anyone using a lightsabre. Again, it's like comparing a fencer with someone who's faced opponents in actual combat with swords.

They're not familar with the sabrestaff version of Soresu.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes? Prove it? Zannah's force feats are...sith sorcery which she's only used on non-Force sensitives and an unempowered distracted Jedi-since when do Force Shields worked when you're not FOCUSING ON THE BATTLE?
Zannah is laughably inexperienced, too, btw. Far moreso than three veteran Jedi masters

Plus waltzing right into the Jedi Archives while cloaking herself in a fake light-side aura that fooled everyone there, and later cloaking both herself and Bane to hide from a Jedi search party.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You claimed that Zannah was only able to fend off Sarro because of Johun getting in the way. I have proven that that is not the case, as she was able to fend off Sarro without being killed right away. Is it that hard to admit that you were wrong?
Considering from Zannah's own POV, she survives only because Johun's an idiot, her managing to hold Sarro off for a short time when he would have killed her prior if he was fighting alone means...? That he was going to kill her eventually anyways?


Admitted wrong there


Why do the standards always change here?
The Clone Wars were longer than the Ruusan Campaign, by the by. And certainly more intensive if we take GL's word from Shatterpoint's forward.They did feature quite a few Dark Jedi, too...Dooku's little army of Dark Acolytes? Not Sith, sure, but the onus would be on you to prove up how powerful the Sith Sarro had faced. Given what we saw of Johun, a proper Sith would've sliced him to ribbons ten years prior.


And Dark Jedi, can't forget the Dark Jedi detail. Plus having trained rather diligently for such confrontation with Sith in the 13 years they'd learned since the Sith were back and the 3 in which they had to prepare to eventually face Dooku...
And as pointed out above, as the text practically points out, Zannah lasted as long as she did thanks to Johun. She manages to desperately hold Sarro off for a brief period before the Battle Meditation is stopped, but he was certainly going to kill her eventually. Sarro made her lose her footing several times before, was totally thrown off guard by Sarro, her defenses were overwhelmed. Why did she survive? Johun. The disruption of Sarro having to slow down let Zannah regain herself.
How long do you think past since Johun left the battle and Sarro's death? Seconds? A minute?


Bane attacks her with nothing short of sheer, explosive rage. Yes, he's intelligent and rational. So were Palpatine and Vader and they were prone to explosive fury. Zannah had also, again, noticeably been studying his moves and holding ground against a mindlessly enraged Bane for a brief time is somewhat impressive, but nothing compared to wwhat she'll need to survive three experienced Jedi Masters


The book disagrees with you. I trust it, honestly.


Says who, you? Kit engaged Ventress, who was a very proficient saberstaff user, all engaged Dark Acolytes-some of whom we know used Saber Staffs- and knew Jedi who fought with DBLs.
Zannah's weapon isn't unfamiliar to them. Neither is Soresu. All have personal experience training with the best Soresu master who ever lived, one has personally engaged a DBL user in combat, the others likely have, and all have companions who used saberstaffs.
This isn't helping Zannah much


Which is pretty basic Sith stuff that even Asajj "I'll do anything if you let me be a Sith" Ventress is able to duplicate and rather helped by the fact nobody tried to pierce said veil in the slightest. It's easy to hide when nobody's looking for you. If the Jedi tried to look deeper than stopping at Darovit being the Sith, they certainly would have found her. Heck, just incpecting the house would've done that.

Zannah has not demonstrated the ability with a saber to put herself above Agen Kolar alone, who, while using a rather vicious attack style with incorporated defense, has none of Sarro's hindrances, plus Kit Fisto, who as we see from the Cestus Deception is an incredibly fast and skilled fighter and Saesee who we know is one as well. None are going to be unfocused for her to pull of sorcery and she can't trick them into tripping one another up. When she loses her footing, it won't be a clumsy Niman user she's got to benefit her but another veteran warrior bisecting her at the waist

Hola, people. Sorry for my short absence- I had some personal stuff to do, so I couldn't post in a few days. But I'm back.

Nebaris, other than making extremely comical references to myself, didn't 'bother' refuting my argument. Meh. I guess it's difficult to make claims such as Zannah > Dooku without anything to back it up, and then actually supporting that!

Now for Monkey's stuff.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Precisely. They SPARRED with their peers. People sparring are not trying to kill each other. They trained in lightsabre duelling basically for tradition and to get a deeper understanding of how to use it properly, not because they needed to know how to battle a lightsabre-wielding foe.

First of all, 'sparring' with someone- when using an obviously non-lethal, training-based lightsaber- is about the same as actually fighting with that person, as you can afford to use the full degree of your ability in order to defeat said person in combat (for example, Anakin and Obi-Wan were stated to have 'countless' hours of sparring together).

You've hit the jackpot on the other one. These said Jedi had not only 1000 years of training themselves in order to better their knowledge and, as you put it, 'understanding' of the lightsaber- in addition, they were hardly lacking in lightsaber ability, as techniques used to take down blaster-wielding foes could, quite easily, be made to counter lightsabers. For example- Obi-Wan was a practicioner of the form most designed to combat blaster weapons, but he was- quite easily- one of the best lightsaber duelists of all time, despite not having, logically, as much experience as the Old Republic dewds in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Obviously, the Old Jedi's techniques may be more specialized- but that is NOT enough to put yourself on the same level as Jedi with far better understanding of the force and of combat tactics.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
That's like comparing a swordsman who grew up and was trained to use a sword in an era when sword skills were vital for survival with a fencer who studies swordsmanship as a hobby. Which is going to be best in actual combat?

Poor logic. The PT Jedi extensively trained in lightsaber combat, and, indeed, had a very fair amount of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat; they had displayed on multiple occasions that they were very much capable of fighting other people with lightsabers, despite their 'lack of experience'.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yes, they "obviously had experience with fighting people wielding lightsabers." Just no-where near to the same level as Sarro, Raskta and the Jedi of their era. No-one is claiming that Kit, Agen etc were useless swordsmen. It's just common sense that the Jedi whose training was focused around battling lightsabre-wielders and have extensive experience in doing so, will be better at duelling than Jedi who went through their training never expecting to have to fight another lightsabre-wielder and have comparitively very little experience in doing so in actual combat. Why is this so hard to understand?

I know you're not Nebaris, but this seems to be very much like one of his claims. I'll tell you what- the Jedi of old had a lesser understanding of both the sword and the force, had worse training (the war would likely necessiate each Jedi's training to be more rushed), but more experience and specialization in fighting with other foes in a blade. That's their only advantage, and it isn't sufficient to make up for the PT Jedi's advantages.

For example, take Johun. A Knight in an era where lightsaber dueling was, supposedly, at it's best- and he was a clumsly idiot with no skill whatsoever.

Sorry. While Raskta is, most probably, superior to any one of the Jedi Team, there simply isn't evidence to put Sarro on their level, much less beyond it.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You seem very biased againt the 'Old Republic' Jedi to me.

Admittedly, I don't like Old Republic Jedi. But really biased in my arguments? I don't think so.

Raskta superior to the team sent to bag sidious?

She's better than any one of them, individually (in my opinion), although they come very close to her. However, she'll be curbstomped if she fought all three at once.

Also note that I'm excluding Mace, because I don't think anyone here doubts the fact that he is, quite cleanly, superior to the AoL Jedi.

Ah ok, well can i have some quotes regarding her skills though? I have the book but too lazy to find it.

Well, she was rumored to have killed as many Sith as the Thought Bomb had, meaning that she was a highly apt Sith-killer (although there's no way to gauge the extent of the abilities of the Sith who fought her). In addition, she was the best lightsaber duelist of the Order of that time, and was capable of, individually, forcing Bane back and preventing him from launching an adequate counterattack.

I think that's enough to place her above Kit, Tiin, and Kolar, who, while extraordinarily gifted duelists, didn't quite display that level of power.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, she was rumored to have killed as many Sith as the Thought Bomb had, meaning that she was a highly apt Sith-killer (although there's no way to gauge the extent of the abilities of the Sith who fought her). In addition, she was the best lightsaber duelist of the Order of that time, and was capable of, individually, forcing Bane back and preventing him from launching an adequate counterattack.

I think that's enough to place her above Kit, Tiin, and Kolar, who, while extraordinarily gifted duelists, didn't quite display that level of power. For one the sith of banes times were jokes(except him of course). I'll substantiate later when i get home.