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Darth Bane and Darth Zannah vs. Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tin, and Mace Windu ( Team Sent to arrest Palpatine)

1. Sabre Duel
2. Force
3. All Out

Location- Tython (where bane and zannah fought team of jedi in ROT)

Well, we haven't yet seen Zannah at her peak, but Bane calculates her potential to be even higher than his own, and she has shown remarkable abilities in ROT.

However, adding Mace Windu makes this a hundred times more difficult for the pair.



EDIT: And what's up with the Zannah threads?

With Mace here, the team is pretty assured a win.

If it's Mace and Agen on Bane with Kit and Saesee on Zannah, she's going to die sine neither suck like Johun...

Either way, it's pretty hard for the pair.

Lt. would you mind making me a sig?

mace who is confirmed by GL to be on par with palp?
teamed up with 3 decent jedi masteres?
are you serious dude??????

the sith die here they might take fisto with them but the die horribly.

vaapad didnt exist at this time so they wont adjust in enough time to mace's style so he after a decent battle whoops bane.

kit, agen, and saesee would tire zannah out enough for mace to come back and finish her once he is done his 13 minute duel with bane

Bane and Zannah die. The way I see it, Mace will go up against Bane, and Kolar, Fisto, and Tiin will go out against Zannah- seeing as she is no where near as good as Sidious in lightsaber combat, she won't be able to hold them off and will promptly be curbstomped. All are some of the order's greatest swordbeings, not really Johuns.

Mace vs. Bane can really go either way- Bane will crush him in a force fight, but Mace, I believe, can take a saber match, virtue of his shatterpoint ability and his Vaapad's superconducting loop, enabling him to go on the defensive and strike at the percise moment, to lop off Bane's hand or disarm him. But Bane could very possibly defeat him- and if he will, it will be with extreme difficulty.

The trio have already curbstomped Zannah at the time. They go up against Bane all together, and defeat him.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Bane and Zannah die. The way I see it, Mace will go up against Bane, and Kolar, Fisto, and Tiin will go out against Zannah- seeing as she is no where near as good as Sidious in lightsaber combat, she won't be able to hold them off and will promptly be curbstomped. All are some of the order's greatest swordbeings, not really Johuns.
Realistically, her modified saberstaff Soresu - which kept her alive against a ticked off Bane for a decent amount of time - should hold them off for quite a while - certainly long enough for Bane to wheel away from Mace as he did with Raskta and launch a Force assault on the weaker Jedi Masters. Considering his Force-pushes demolish buildings and camps and pulverize humans, and his lightning reduces its victims to ashes and rips through the defenses of exceptional Jedi Masters, they wouldn't stand a chance.

1] The Jedi, although it'd be a ridiculous fight and not all of them are walking away.

2] The Sith, with pitiful ease.

3] Could go either way, but I'm banking on the duo if they fight smart. It all comes down to Bane wheeling away from Mace just long enough to utterly demolish the other Jedi via his titanic Force attacks, leaving Zannah to mop up with whoever is left, and then help Bane take on Windu. If Bane gets trapped by Mace - which is unlikely, because there're a total of three places on his body that Mace can actually hit with any effect - the Jedi could take it.

Seriously, stop teaming Mace up with these goons. Give him Kas'im, or something.

Slight issue with the Zannah issue there Faunus:
Zannah's Soresu kept her alive with Sarro and Johun only because Johun was a worthless idiot and Sarro couldn't slaughter her thanks to that. Two Jedi like Agen and Kit on her, both master swordsmen, experienced veterans accustomed to working together? That doesn't look good for Zannah.

And it'd be interesting if the other three are on Bane while Mace rips through Zannah like a wet paper bag in three seconds...and Mace has a hell of an advantage: He is more experienced a fighter than Bane, and has the physical strength to keep Bane from overpowering him, plus a totally unfamiliar style.

and Force wise, I do see do see Mace's defense being at the least, competent enough to survive what Bane can throw at him...he's likely more powerful than Farfalla by a good margin

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Slight issue with the Zannah issue there Faunus:
Zannah's Soresu kept her alive with Sarro and Johun only because Johun was a worthless idiot and Sarro couldn't slaughter her thanks to that. Two Jedi like Agen and Kit on her, both master swordsmen, experienced veterans accustomed to working together? That doesn't look good for Zannah.

And it'd be interesting if the other three are on Bane while Mace rips through Zannah like a wet paper bag in three seconds...and Mace has a hell of an advantage: He is more experienced a fighter than Bane, and has the physical strength to keep Bane from overpowering him, plus a totally unfamiliar style.Agreed. Like I said: the Sith could take this is they play it smart, but Mace's presence makes it rather unlikely.

I don't see him stopping Force-lightning with his bare hands.

Well, it would be more likely for Fisto, Saesse, and Kolar to team up against Zannah and quickly destroy her, while Mace takes Bane. The three masters would make quick work of her and then team up with Mace against Bane.

If not, they would split into two groups of two: Windu & Kolar against Bane, Fisto & Saesse against Zannah. It would definitely be a fight interesting to watch.

I don't see him stopping Force-lightning with his bare hands.

Do you see him using his blade along with Vaapad to shoot it back at Bane, like he did with Sidious?

I don't think that Bane, unless alone, grounded and unarmed would keep Ligthning going for so long as Palpatine did, at least not enough to incapacitate him.

Originally posted by Faunus
Agreed. Like I said: the Sith could take this is they play it smart, but Mace's presence makes it rather unlikely.
That works

Did Farfalla ever do that?
I recall Raskta deflect it when he blasted at Farfalla with her sabers, but Farfalla deflecting lightning barehanded?

I meant in a Force-only fight.

And Farfalla tried to put up a barrier to defend against the lightning, he wasn't using a lightsaber and obviously wasn't capable of defending against Bane's assault with his bare hands.

Originally posted by Faunus
I meant in a Force-only fight.

And Farfalla tried to put up a barrier to defend against the lightning, he wasn't using a lightsaber and obviously wasn't capable of defending against Bane's assault with his bare hands.

Farfalla put up a Force barrier, but Bane's lightning blasted right through it. I got the impression that it wasn't even slowed down.

yeah nice strategey in thoery for the jedi team to win... but in thoery this same team should have destroyed palpatine.. mace should have been a good match on his own, and then with the other 3 it should have Sidious shuldnt have stood a chance..

fact is if bane pulls a sidious here, and kills 3 of them before Mace can hardly even react, then the sith double team Mace and the sith win. if those 3 jedis are called the b- team when going up against Sidious then i dnt see how theyll be much more competition for Bane.

They're heralded as 'great' in the novel, which also provided an appropriately badass sequence that has Palpatine dispatch Saesee and Agen before dueling Mace and Kit.

Lucas is a dumbass.

The only person who called the trio 'The B Team' was asking Lucas about them...Lucas promptly dispelled that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The only person who called the trio 'The B Team' was asking Lucas about them...Lucas promptly dispelled that.

yes and he sed the reason was they culdnt compete with sidious.. so whats makes you think they wuld be able to compete against bane?

Originally posted by Faunus
They're heralded as 'great' in the novel, which also provided an appropriately badass sequence that has Palpatine dispatch Saesee and Agen before dueling Mace and Kit.


isnt that what hapeened in the movie as well??

The novel had a considerably more badass way of displaying their deaths. Meh. They should've let some uber stuntsmen do the work for the Sidious vs. Mace fight- I mean, we're talking about some of the fastest duelists in history here. Instead, we get two old men going at it while using cool CGI tricks (though, kudos to Ian McDiarmid. He did an excellent job for a men his age- much better than Samuel mada****in' Jackson).

Sidious vs. The Posse was, overall, the worst fight in the prequels. Though I forgive RotS for displaying that, because Sidious vs. Yoda and Anakin vs. Obi-Wan are the best dueling sequences in Star Wars history. xD

And Faunus, we cannot let Lucas' incompetence get in the way of our debate- otherwise, I can go off and say Mace is a slow moron because of the way they depicted him in the movie.

True. It's just that I'm actually a huge fan of the depictions of Sidious in Sithisis, the RotS novel, and Shadow Hunter, but the movies, DE, and certain overzealous EU authors tarnish that image considerably.

Oh, Sidious was great in most of RotS- in no small part due to Ian McDiarmid's performance. His fight with Yoda was one of the best- I really like how Lucas decided to make the lightsaber duel between them even better than the fight between Dooku and Yoda. One of the fastest lightsaber duels in memory. Great stuff, really. The only bad thing I can say about Sidious in the RotS movie is, indeed, the fight between Mace and him.

His depictions in the RotS novel was incredibly awesome. 'Specially his fight with Mace- which, I might add, was the best fight in the novel. Sithisis was incredible.

DE can go to hell for all that I care, along with most of the post-RotJ works. It sucks. After watching RotS and RotJ, it seriously pissed me off that the Sith still survive after Anakin kill Sidious- it cheapens his struggle and the movies and general. Therefore, I ignore them completely most of the time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes and he sed the reason was they culdnt compete with sidious.. so whats makes you think they wuld be able to compete against bane?

the whole point of Bane's order was: The Apprentice would always become more powerful than his master and kill the master. Logic leads to a hard to believe, but (imagine this!) logical conclusion: Bane is the weakest of his order by his OWN DESIGN. Sidious is the most powerful of that order by BANE'S OWN DESIGN. We receive nothing in novelization, or in movies, or games, or ANYTHING else to tell us any differently, so until we find out for sure that Zannah in her prime isn't more powerful than Bane in his prime, we have to assume that his order worked correctly in a Bane<Zannah<Zannah's apprentice<.....<Plageious<Sidious sort of way.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes and he sed the reason was they culdnt compete with sidious.. so whats makes you think they wuld be able to compete against bane?

That doesn't work; Sidious is more powerful and more skilled than Bane.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, Sidious was great in most of RotS- in no small part due to Ian McDiarmid's performance. His fight with Yoda was one of the best- I really like how Lucas decided to make the lightsaber duel between them even better than the fight between Dooku and Yoda. One of the fastest lightsaber duels in memory. Great stuff, really. The only bad thing I can say about Sidious in the RotS movie is, indeed, the fight between Mace and him.Sidious' expressions made me want to tear my eyes out, but the part where he discusses the nature of the Dark side with Anakin was solid, as was the little dialogue before that pathetic duel with Mace.
Worse, they're not even good characters. Krayt is unique at least, but Caedus is a horrendous waste of a decent character.

Originally posted by truejedi
we have to assume that his order worked correctly in a Bane<Zannah<Zannah's apprentice<.....<Plageious<Sidious sort of way.No, we don't. Sidious killed his master in his sleep. Zannah, as she revealed in RoT, was trying to convince Bane to rid himself of the orbalisks all along, as she suspected it would make killing him an easier task.

The Sith of Bane's order are smart - they don't have to be more powerful or more skilled in combat than their masters to kill them, and it would make no sense at all for there to be a Force-user available to each successive generation that equaled or exceeded Bane in terms of potential. Palpatine was, essentially, the physical manifestation of everything the Sith Order had valued. The smartest, the strongest, and the most ambitious.

Sidious' expresions in his fight against Yoda were ridiculous, aside from the laughter. That was awesome. Sidious at his best, really. Though I may be biased- seeing as RotS was my favorite Star Wars movie, and shall remain that forever. All of the characters came at their best- oh, except for Padme. She was horrendous in RotS. Anywayz- Sidious' exaggerrated performance, while ridiculous at times, was, overall, satisfactory- as was his fight with Yoda, that was totally thrilling and badass.

Caedus is an Anakin ripoff. Luke is the stupidest character in Star Wars. Han and Leia survivng makes me want to cut my wrists. For me, Star Wars ended after RotJ- and I won't be reading any more post RotJ-novels. Why spoil the name of Star Wars?

I'll definitely check out Stover's upcoming novel on Luke, but the rest can burn.

The Darth Caedus character was actually retarded. From the fluctuations in power levels, to acquiring random techniques magically, the authors did a piss poor job developing his character properly.

It's a real shame Thrawn got killed off. He and Han were the only two characters who I actually like who survived post RotJ- and now, Thrawn's dead, and Han is annoying.

Stover is, hands down, one of the best Star Wars authors yet- Timothy Zahn ain't bad either, tho. His novels are quite good.

It's been a while... Wow, Gideon changed his avatar and now wears a signature!?

Originally posted by 0°Mandalore°0
It's been a while... Wow, Gideon changed his avatar and now wears a signature!?

That's what I said.

Who's the one responsible for this atrocity? That's just sooo not-Gideon-ish. Oh, well. How's it been around here?

The problem with the Legacy of the Force series is that it did not give us a truly formidable villain; the authors, rather than make Caedus a cunning or clever individual, decided (at the last minute) to cram him with all sorts of esoteric powers and abilities -- including the shatterpoint charism -- in an attempt to nullify his apparently overwhelming stupidity. That and the murders of Gilad Pellaeon and Mara Jade Skywalker were absolutely unnecessary; you only kill of two characters like that if their deaths mean something. The series was utter shit, so they died for nothing. Incidentally, they were the two most interesting characters alive at that point. I would have preferred that Leia died. Han and Leia are too old and too weak to be anything other than support, they need to be relegated to sideline duty or political action.

What we need is a novel (I'll settle for a comic series... even though I despise comics) concerning Vergere's supposed allegiance to the Sith, studying of Count Dooku, attempted murder of Darth Sidious, and her subsequent failure and retreat into the Unknown Regions.

That would be awesome.

Indeed.

And welcome back, Mandalore.

Btw, I'm the one responsible for such atrocity.

I'd want a friggin' Sidious/Plaguis novel. That would be unlimited coolness.

If there's not gonna be a KOTOR 3, I would love a freakin' KOTOR 3 novel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I'd want a friggin' Sidious/Plaguis novel. That would be unlimited coolness. Luceno was supposed to write one, but it was dropped in favor of Luke's novel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I'd want a friggin' Sidious/Plaguis novel. That would be unlimited coolness.

As much as I like Luceno, I wouldn't want him to write it. The dude who wrote DR would have to do it, or Matthew Stover.

-_-

That sucks ASS. Sidious and Plagueis are far more interesting characters than Luke "Overused" Skywalker. But I guess they don't want another Bane/Zannah-like series. I think that an excellent part of a Plaguies/Sidious novel is detailing the circumstances of Anakin's death and, perhaps, fleshing out Sidious' background. Maybe give him a reason for the intense hatred for the Jedi, other than simply being a Sith?

Oh, and Luceno is decent- but he's not the best Star Wars author around. I'd personally let Stover or Zahn handle a potential Plagueis novel- they can both make characters more interesting than Luceno.

Edit: LOL, me and Gideon said practically the same thing at the same time. I didn't even notice his post.

And how was Dark Rendezvous? I hadn't read it yet.

DR was pretty good. I actually like the CW-era novels a lot less than I used to, and prefer the RotS novel almost entirely. Weird, since I used to hate it with a burning passion.

And I'm interested in seeing Stover's take on Luke Skywalker - Traitor was the only decent NJO novel, sans the end of TUF, and he's definitely the best EU author around at the moment.

As for the Plagueis/Sidious novel, I would hate to see Palpatine turned into any sort of 'victim' character, and certainly don't want to learn too much about his younger years. Plagueis would be cool, but Sidious' apprenticeship shouldn't be explored too deeply, IMO.

It's part of his mystery, I guess.

So far, Revenge of the Sith was the most emotionally charged, thrilling EU novel I've read- but we can't credit that entirely to Stover, as Lucas did, after all, write the story of said novel. If I was to make a comparison of the novel vs. the movie, the novel would win on some points- such as it's depiction of the the badassness of Mace Windu, something that movie utterly failed to portray, and the way it made Dooku. I hated how he was killed so early, so pointlessly in the movie- the novel made him, somehow... more significant.

Also, since we are already completely off-topic and discussing Star Wars material, I'd like to ask a question- what's your favorite Star Wars movie? It always makes me rather interested to ask this question. The consensus seems to be Empire Strikes Back, but for me, it's the RotS Movie, which I find to be possibly the best piece of Star Wars around- while it's not exactly a perfect movie, it's about as good as Star Wars can get. Aside from being appropriately fast-paced and actually doing a surprisingly good job of showing the relationship between Anakin and Padme, it also has some of the best action sequences ever on film. The Jedi's death was, in my opinion, believable- that face Mundi made before he died just etches in my memory whenever I think 'RotS', lolz.

I rest my case. What's your opinions?

As a kid, I always the hated the sad endings, so Return of the Jedi took the cake. But now, I'd have to say Revenge of the Sith was the most entertaining and satisfying of the six. Dark as hell, insane action sequences, great CGI, and at some points actually sad.

Of course, it had some glaring flaws - ignoring the fact that Obi-Wan's lightsaber casts a shadow in the the duel with Dooku (minor, but a WTF moment for me), some of the dialogue was hideous. 'Hold me, Ani!'

Hell, even Ewan had a bad scene when Anakin departed for his 'glorious day with the politicians.' McDiarmid's face in the Mace duel was pretty much vomit-inducing, and the duel itself was pathetic. Like, ANH duel pathetic.

That said, I was pleased with the handling of Anakin's descent into darkness, and the new Vader's slaughter of the Jedi and the Separatist council was awesome (in a sick kind of way). Of course, Anakin vs. Obi-Wan was one of the best action scenes I've ever seen, both in dramatic content and plain fury, and Kenobi's breakdown at the end was much deserved and well-executed.

I agree on all points. Obi-Wan, in his scenes with the council, wasn't very interesting- however, Obi-Wan still remains my favorite Jedi of all time, thanks mainly to him displaying emotion. And wit. My god, "Not to worry. We're still flying half a ship." was classic. His scenes with Anakin were phenomenal- of worth mentioning are three scenes. The scene when he tells Anakin that the Chancellor is suspect- that moment was plainly eerie, for some reason... great score, great emotion. Great acting, too. The second is when Obi-Wan departs to kill GG- I mean, you know it's the last time they see each other, and their dialoge at that point is pure sad. Third is, of course, Obi-Wan's "You were the chosen one!". Saddest, most dramatic scene in Star Wars history. Absolutely sad.

In addition, Palpatine and Anakin had some amazing scenes- namely, the scene when he reveals himself to be Darth Sidious... that was, amazing. And the scene in the 'opera'. Amazing, too. It occured to me that many fans dislike how Vader was suddenly made more complex, less mysterious- on the contrary, in my opinion. In the OT, Vader was, for me, a badass Sith. But that's it. After the PT, he became one of the most amazing, believable Sith in history for me, and watching things like ESB suddenly takes a whole new meaning.

RotJ would actually rank pretty low in my tastes, actually. My least favorite Star Wars movie- INCLUDING the Jar-Jar tale. The ewoks were damned annoying, and it honestly seemed kiddy... and stupid. The only great thing I can say about is the final scene on the Death Star- Anakin's redemption, and Palpatine's death.

If I had to make a list of best to worst Star Wars movies:

1. Revenge of the Sith
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. Attack of the Clones and a New Hope (tie)
4. The Phantom Menace
5. Return of the Jedi

Originally posted by Gideon
The problem with the Legacy of the Force series is that it did not give us a truly formidable villain; the authors, rather than make Caedus a cunning or clever individual, decided (at the last minute) to cram him with all sorts of esoteric powers and abilities -- including the shatterpoint charism -- in an attempt to nullify his apparently overwhelming stupidity. That and the murders of Gilad Pellaeon and Mara Jade Skywalker were absolutely unnecessary; you only kill of two characters like that if their deaths mean something. The series was utter shit, so they died for nothing. Incidentally, they were the two most interesting characters alive at that point. I would have preferred that Leia died. Han and Leia are too old and too weak to be anything other than support, they need to be relegated to sideline duty or political action.

What we need is a novel (I'll settle for a comic series... even though I despise comics) concerning Vergere's supposed allegiance to the Sith, studying of Count Dooku, attempted murder of Darth Sidious, and her subsequent failure and retreat into the Unknown Regions.

That would make for one hell of a book. Get writing.

Originally posted by Faunus
As a kid, I always the hated the sad endings, so Return of the Jedi took the cake. But now, I'd have to say Revenge of the Sith was the most entertaining and satisfying of the six. Dark as hell, insane action sequences, great CGI, and at some points actually sad.

Of course, it had some glaring flaws - ignoring the fact that Obi-Wan's lightsaber casts a shadow in the the duel with Dooku (minor, but a WTF moment for me), some of the dialogue was hideous. 'Hold me, Ani!'

Hell, even Ewan had a bad scene when Anakin departed for his 'glorious day with the politicians.' McDiarmid's face in the Mace duel was pretty much vomit-inducing, and the duel itself was pathetic. Like, ANH duel pathetic.

That said, I was pleased with the handling of Anakin's descent into darkness, and the new Vader's slaughter of the Jedi and the Separatist council was awesome (in a sick kind of way). Of course, Anakin vs. Obi-Wan was one of the best action scenes I've ever seen, both in dramatic content and plain fury, and Kenobi's breakdown at the end was much deserved and well-executed.

You liked anakin's descent towards darkness? You mean the whole 30 seconds it took for him to get there?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You liked anakin's descent towards darkness? You mean the whole 30 seconds it took for him to get there?

No. It took him one and a half movies- the entirety of AotC and half of RotS. You see Anakin getting conflicted in the movie, being seducted by Palpatine- man, the guy has understandable- if selfish- motives for turning into the big meanie. Put yourself in his shoes. He feels everyone is holding him back, afraid of his power. Thanks to his friend the Chancellor, he gradually loses trust of the Jedi, eventually coming to the belief that they betrayed him. This is only helped by the fact that Palpatine constantly reassured and encouraged his power, while the Council did the opposite. Preventing him mastership, sending Obi-Wan to kill Grievous. Not to mention to top it off with how useless they are regarding words of advice to help save Padme, Anakin's forbidden wife, who he now believes is certainly going to die. And he can't really bear that, eh? And in the moment, he has to chose- the Jedi, big assholes who are trying to betray the republic and can't stop going off about how one shouldn't have any emotion and love, or the ability to save his wife from dying- and the man who was, along with Obi-Wan, his father figure. Unlike Obi-Wan, however, Palpatine never had a bad word to say about Anakin, making sure he had his affection all along.

See, the most unbelievable thing is that Anakin constantly thought he was doing the good thing. Saving his wife, ensuring security to the world- by taking a new 'take-charge' attitude, namely massacring anyone who stands in his way- and preventing the Republic from being taken over by the Jedi.

Sorry. I really can't see how Anakin's descent to the dark side was handled in '30 seconds'.

Luceno's Cloak of Deception is better than Labyrinth of Evil, a first-rate political thriller. He managed to portray the tragedy of Finis Valorum and Palpatine's manipulation of both him, the Jedi, and the whole Trade Federation directorate. So he certainly writes Palpatine well as a schemer, but the gentleman who wrote Dark Rendezvous managed to capture a tortured and twisted Count Dooku and an extremely psychologically vicious Palpatine, while not losing the extraordinary scheming capability. And pure evil is more than just "cold and scheming".

Dark Rendezvous is as good as the RotS novelization.

Awesome. Gonna get to reading it.

And Gideon- what is your favorite Star Wars movie? Faunus and I both agree that it's RotS.

ROTS was my favorite movie too.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Awesome. Gonna get to reading it.

And Gideon- what is your favorite Star Wars movie? Faunus and I both agree that it's RotS.

I like them all. Though I've seen AotC the most, and so I find it the most boring. And the podrace/Tatooine scenes in TPM were leeching in nature.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
No. It took him one and a half movies- the entirety of AotC and half of RotS. You see Anakin getting conflicted in the movie, being seducted by Palpatine- man, the guy has understandable- if selfish- motives for turning into the big meanie. Put yourself in his shoes. He feels everyone is holding him back, afraid of his power. Thanks to his friend the Chancellor, he gradually loses trust of the Jedi, eventually coming to the belief that they betrayed him. This is only helped by the fact that Palpatine constantly reassured and encouraged his power, while the Council did the opposite. Preventing him mastership, sending Obi-Wan to kill Grievous. Not to mention to top it off with how useless they are regarding words of advice to help save Padme, Anakin's forbidden wife, who he now believes is certainly going to die. And he can't really bear that, eh? And in the moment, he has to chose- the Jedi, big assholes who are trying to betray the republic and can't stop going off about how one shouldn't have any emotion and love, or the ability to save his wife from dying- and the man who was, along with Obi-Wan, his father figure. Unlike Obi-Wan, however, Palpatine never had a bad word to say about Anakin, making sure he had his affection all along.

See, the most unbelievable thing is that Anakin constantly thought he was doing the good thing. Saving his wife, ensuring security to the world- by taking a new 'take-charge' attitude, namely massacring anyone who stands in his way- and preventing the Republic from being taken over by the Jedi.

Sorry. I really can't see how Anakin's descent to the dark side was handled in '30 seconds'. All of what you said is true, but imagine yourself as someone who appreciates the movies, but doesn't classify as a nerd. You know, someone who only watches the movies once or twice a year. That's how I personally determine the value in the films. Anakin's fall happened virtually instantaneously. He was all gung-ho about the "Jedi way" one moment and literally the next is agreeing to wiping out "every single Jedi, including your friend (father-figure, brother etc.) Obi-Wan Kenobi."

Most of us have discussed this and agree that the novelization's expansion makes for a much more believable descent. Palpatine actually took the time to sit and talk with Anakin before he informed Mace. He wanted Master-level to access to the holocrons in the novel, but sounded like a child in the film. There wasn't enough depth to the backstory of his fall.

Throw in a few pieces of stupid or silly-looking acting, and you've got a general audience who views the film as "a great sci-fi flick, but still pales compared to the OT."

But you're right about RoTJ, I would just add the space battle as one of its few highlights.

Wow, I haven't actually seen the movies in quite a while... My brother watches them the whole time, though.

Originally posted by Tangible God
All of what you said is true, but imagine yourself as someone who appreciates the movies, but doesn't classify as a nerd. You know, someone who only watches the movies once or twice a year. That's how I personally determine the value in the films. Anakin's fall happened virtually instantaneously. He was all gung-ho about the "Jedi way" one moment and literally the next is agreeing to wiping out "every single Jedi, including your friend (father-figure, brother etc.) Obi-Wan Kenobi."

Most of us have discussed this and agree that the novelization's expansion makes for a much more believable descent. Palpatine actually took the time to sit and talk with Anakin before he informed Mace. He wanted Master-level to access to the holocrons in the novel, but sounded like a child in the film. There wasn't enough depth to the backstory of his fall.

Throw in a few pieces of stupid or silly-looking acting, and you've got a general audience who views the film as "a great sci-fi flick, but still pales compared to the OT."

But you're right about RoTJ, I would just add the space battle as one of its few highlights.

Oh, I dunno. I actually think Hayden Christensen did a good job (!) of portraying Anakin's descent to the darkness. The dialoge was actually pretty good at these parts- I mean, yeah. One has to look a little more in-depth to see the full nature of Anakin's fall.

The novel obviously goes more in-depth, but it's a novel. What can you expect? It's also an awesome novel, at that. I have viewed the movie and novel as, overall, equal in quality most of the times.

And the general audience, from what I've seen, actually like the PT more thanks to its superior special effects and, overall, more accessible nature. I don't agree with that philosophy- although I actually think that PT and the OT are equal in equality.

I think a huge part of the reason that the OT is so much more popular among die hard fans is due to the fact that people can into the theaters expecting to be disappointed. They looked so carefully for all of the dialoge, acting, and such that they forgot to enjoy the movie- and have already decided, upon entrance, that nothing can compare to the Original Trilogy. Meh. That ruins the movies. And I gotta say that, all in all, I was highly satisfied by the Prequels.

I was highly satisfied by every f*ckin' SW movie. Yeah, even ROTJ and TPM.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, I dunno. I actually think Hayden Christensen did a good job (!) of portraying Anakin's descent to the darkness. The dialoge was actually pretty good at these parts- I mean, yeah. One has to look a little more in-depth to see the full nature of Anakin's fall.

The novel obviously goes more in-depth, but it's a novel. What can you expect? It's also an awesome novel, at that. I have viewed the movie and novel as, overall, equal in quality most of the times.

And the general audience, from what I've seen, actually like the PT more thanks to its superior special effects and, overall, more accessible nature. I don't agree with that philosophy- although I actually think that PT and the OT are equal in equality.

I think a huge part of the reason that the OT is so much more popular among die hard fans is due to the fact that people can into the theaters expecting to be disappointed. They looked so carefully for all of the dialoge, acting, and such that they forgot to enjoy the movie- and have already decided, upon entrance, that nothing can compare to the Original Trilogy. Meh. That ruins the movies. And I gotta say that, all in all, I was highly satisfied by the Prequels. Lol, I was just watching AOTC on TV earlier and said to my friend that Hayden actually does a bang-up job with Anakin, it's what Lucas tells him to do that makes some parts seem low-caliber.

But yeah, the regular, non-nerd movie goer (the ones that actually know how to critique a movie, and not focus on the special effects) tend to complain about the lack of character analysis. It's a 2 and a 1/2 hour movie, I know you can only fit so much in--- but crikey it's a little sad that everyone agrees the book of the movie is held in higher esteem than the movie itself. Narration offers a lot I know, but the movie could have fit in more for Anakin's character. The general consensus is that his movie-incarnation is a whiny b*tch who got blindsided, whereas his novel-self is someone you can truly sympathize with and understand.

Oh, I dunno. I don't feel the novel to be superior at all to the novel- 'sides, you gotta look at some of the benefits of movies. Thrilling, intense action, dazzling visuals, acting, and an overall more engaging- if not quite as detailed an experience. I really don't think his movie self is annoying; I mean, in TPM, he was likeable. In AotC, I wanted to kill him. In the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, he was seriously a nice Jedi. For example; his conversation with Obi-Wan, him apologzing to him... sorry, lolz, I don't think someone needs to scream out something- like it is in the novel- for it to be understandable; Anakin became evil because of good reasons. Ironic, really.

Oh, and don't get me wrong- I like all Star Wars movies. But RotJ is simply, in my opinion, the worst one.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, I dunno. I don't feel the novel to be superior at all to the novel- 'sides, you gotta look at some of the benefits of movies. Thrilling, intense action, dazzling visuals, acting, and an overall more engaging- if not quite as detailed an experience. I really don't think his movie self is annoying; I mean, in TPM, he was likeable. In AotC, I wanted to kill him. In the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, he was seriously a nice Jedi. For example; his conversation with Obi-Wan, him apologzing to him... sorry, lolz, I don't think someone needs to scream out something- like it is in the novel- for it to be understandable; Anakin became evil because of good reasons. Ironic, really.

Oh, and don't get me wrong- I like all Star Wars movies. But RotJ is simply, in my opinion, the worst one. Lol, well I gotta say, you're part of a minority.

Heh. Let's ask people's opinions, eh? xD

Well, personally I did like Anakins fall and didn't like ROTJ as much as ROTS. I thought it was alright though.
What I really hated was Lando's outfit. You can't rule a country dressed like That!!!
Jerk.
'Set my Jabberwocky on you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Slight issue with the Zannah issue there Faunus:
Zannah's Soresu kept her alive with Sarro and Johun only because Johun was a worthless idiot and Sarro couldn't slaughter her thanks to that. Two Jedi like Agen and Kit on her, both master swordsmen, experienced veterans accustomed to working together? That doesn't look good for Zannah.


'Trying desperately to wrestle thread back on-topic.'

Not exactly. While Johun's presence did work heavily to Zannah's advantage, she was able to fend off Sarro for a good amount of time when it was just one-on-one.

Now I agree that between them those guys could beat her, but they won't just cut her down like wheat.

All three of them are superior to Sarro and accomplished to fight in conjunction. How can Zannah take them on for any real amount of time together? She only survived so long to Johun.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
All three of them are superior to Sarro and accomplished to fight in conjunction. How can Zannah take them on for any real amount of time together? She only survived so long to Johun.

Nope, it was stated that Zannah could have killed Johun anytime. She deliberately left him alive because she realised that he was a bigger hindrance to his ally than he was to her.

And are they really superior to Sarro? I'm sure each of them was better in experience, overall Force power/ability etc, but Sarro was trained by seemingly the best duellist of their era (which was a lot more battle-oriented than the PT era). At the time Sarro was trained there were legions of Sith, so Jedi training would have included a lot more focus on lightsabre to lightsabre combat. By the time of the PT, Jedi almost exclusively focus on lightsabres for deflecting blasterfire.

Sure those guys are better Jedi, but are they better fighters? Heck, it is stated in the book that Raskta and Sarro focused almost entirely on combat ability, this left them vulnerable to Bane and Zannah's Force attacks/Sith sorcery. Would those guys really have focused that much on fighting ability alone?

I'd easily put Sarro (BM powered) above any of the three. The Jedi of his time were trained primarily to fight against opposing Force Users and lightsaber practitioners, and once their training was over, that's exactly what they did. They fought almost constantly in the most destructive war there had ever been, and likely ever will be, almost exclusively against lightsaber wielding Darksiders, with the end result of the war amounting to the survivors being better trained, battle hardened, and Sith-ready than nearly any other group of Jedi before or after them. Then of course there's the fact that the Jedi were described as vastly outnumbering the Sith, who were described as numbering in the 20,000s, whereas the PT Jedi were officially numbered just under ten thousand around the time of The Phantom Menace.

In other words, the Jedi Order of Sarro's time was far better trained and battle hardened than the Jedi Order of the PT times, far more specialised at fighting against other Force users and Lightsaber practitioners, and on top of that, were numbered far higher as well, and Sarro appears to have been one of the better Jedi of the time.

His ability with his double bladed lightsaber was highly renowned within his Order, to the point where it was believed that few beings in the Galaxy would be able to stand up against him in combat. He was described as being well over 2 metres tall with 150 kilos of raw muscle, yet still quick enough to "snatch a zess-fly out of the air." His technique was described as being more refined than Bane's (in obvious awe), and he was described as having elevated the art of combat to its purest and highest form, moving with the grace of a dancer, and executing his moves with "a perfect elegance born of obsession."

Lastly, there's the fact that he was being powered up by the focused effects of a talented Master of Battle Meditation, to such an extent that Farfalla, someone who was receiving the exact same benefits, was in absolute awe of how much quicker and stronger it made him, and Johun, someone who was, again, receiving the same benefits, noted the effects of no longer being powered up by the meditation as "a wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelm him," and "his strength and energy plummet."

Really, the fact that he was able to contend with Zannah in the first place alone speaks highly for his ability, at least under the BMd conditions, given the fact that her strength in the Force was believed to have been a good notch above Darth Bane's, her instinctive link to the dark side was stated to rival his, and she had been training and learning Sith Magic for ten years. Really, she'd logically be at a level of ability - both with a lightsaber and the Force - somewhere in between Bane's PoD and Ro2 incarnations. It doesn't matter that she hasn't yet displayed as much, her potential and instinctive grasp of the Force as well as the fact that she's been learning Sith Magic directly from Nadd's holocron, and training for a longer period of time (than his PoD incarnation) would dictate as much.

This is, after all, the same Zannah, who when untrained, was capable of some of the most impressive instinctive displays of the Force ever, such as protecting herself, and the area and Bouncers around her from the BoD's Force Storm, and snapping the necks of two Jedi. After ten years of learning Sith Magic directly from the holocron of Freedon Nadd, she's clearly going to be a force to be reckoned.

I got to ask you Nebaris, how long do you think Sarro could last vs Zannah without the aid of BM and no Johun to get in the way and the same situation for Sarro vs Bane. This is one character that I hope is featured in more New Sith Wars EU.

How are you, Nebaris?

We know you think anyone who fought Bane or is relevant to your argument is automatically superior to the opposition. But the fact of the matter is- the trio are highly formidable Jedi and duelists in their own right.

Agen Kolar was hailed as one of the greatest bladesbeings in the history of the Jedi Order- yes, a Jedi order that contained the likes of Raskta- and was capable of completely outclassing Quinlan Vos, a uniquely talented Jedi, in blade-to-blade combat. He was also trusted, and co-worked with Mace Windu, the same guy who was called one of the deadliest Jedi in history, invented an 'unconventionally lethal' form and had mastered most- if not all- forms.

Kit was also held in exceptionally high esteem by many, knowledgable Jedi Masters and was described as being superior to AotC Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat. In fact, the quote- I believe- says that Obi-Wan 'quickly realized' that Kit was superior. This implies that Fisto was completely outclassing him- and remind yourself that this is the same Obi-Wan who, just over 10 years previously, managed to knock Darth Maul- someone who was a high level master of multiple forms and was one of the deadliest apprentices in history- on his ass and cut his weapon in half.

Seasee was reputed to be one of the best bladesbeings in the Jedi Order's history (supported by Shaak Ti and Obi-Wan Kenobi, knowledgable and formidable Jedi Masters on their own right), and was good enough a pilot to impress Anakin Skywalker- arguably the best pilot in the history of the galaxy. In order to truly be an excellent Jedi pilot, it suggests that Tiin possessed a unique attunement to the force, and had great mastery over it.

I don't think it's a question so much of how long he'd last, considering Zannah's Soresu mindset, but more so just whether or not he'd actually pose any semblance of a threat whatsoever, in which case I don't think so without the benefits of BM. At least not to the point where he'd be able to prevent her from breaking out of close combat and directing her sorcery at him. As for Bane, I personally don't think any of the Jedi would have lasted long at all against him without the beneficial effects of BM. Even BM powered, in a two-on-one situation, Farfalla didn't believe that he or Raskta stood a chance against him, believing Bane to be too powerful for both of them, and feeling that they needed reinforcements, and it's made extremely clear that Farfalla would have been defeated in moments without the beneficial effects of BM, and the same is likely the case with Raskta, considering she was only able to evade his opening attack at the last possible instant, and likely wouldn't have while not BM powered.

But yeah, I have to agree, as far as Jedi go he truly was as beastly as it gets, and is arguably the most complete lightsaber practitioner there is. Incredible speed, strength, technique, elegance, and grace. One hell of a package.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
How are you, Nebaris?

The keyboard function you're looking for there would be .



Did I deny as much? The fact of the matter is that all that they have going for them is their technical ability (also, I don't know where you're gauging "dueling" - specifically - from, considering their time period was far less focused on lightsaber-on-lightsaber action given the period didn't demand it so much, and nothing regarding them speaks specifically on the matter). Sarro was clearly not lacking in that area one bit, and yet on top of that, as I explained, was as complete a fighter as any other Jedi, was being powered to extraordinary heights by Worror's BM, and his training and experience was far more focused on dueling against opponents such as the three mentioned Jedi. He was one of the top duelists of a far greater Jedi Order, and he was being powered heavily by BM. Puts him a good notch above a bunch of one trick ponies, that absolutely suck strategically as Jedi.



One of the greatest in a galaxy wide 20,000 year old institution. Substantiate what that truly amounts to, and then substantiate what real significance technical ability truly has (which is all the statement measures), and then, if you manage to do that, substantiate how it puts him above a top tier Jedi of the greatest Order of Jedi there had likely ever been and ever will be, who was being powered tremendously by BM, and was far more specialised at fighting against lightsaber wielding Force users and far more complete a fighter than Agen could even hope to dream of.



QV was unique purely because of his psychometric power, something entirely irrelevant on a dueling situation, and something that was both powered by his Force ability and his natural ability as a guardian (and thus, not completely testament to his ability with the Force).



Irrelevant misdirection. That Mace has such faith in his ability and highly trusted him speaks of Agen's ability in comparison to any other Jedi who might fill such a spot, not to Mace Windu himself, so posting evidence of Mace's notability amounts to nothing. Oh, and for the record, Dooku was the only Jedi of his time to master Makashi, so sadly, Mace Windu most certainly did not master all the forms. Unlucky. And the only thing that was labelled "deadliest" was Vaapad. Stop repeating this falsehood.



LOL. So he was able to outclass a guy with no real proven skills and no notability whatsoever. Nice argument. Now, substantiate Obi-Wan's level of ability as of AotC, and then get back to me, or drop the point.



In a force empowered rage that granted him tremendous temporary advantages. Not testament to his regular level of ability. Try again. Also, you make an effort of pointing out the ten years that had passed, when in all truth, while his Force ability would have most definitely improved during the period, his lightsaber ability most likely went down a good notch or two, given he had completely abandoned the form of combat that he had been practising for about twenty years, and started from scratch with Soresu and only practised it for about half the time he had Ataru. If his overall level of ability was even greater after those ten years, it was marginal, at best.



There's only one passage of text that declares them both knowledgeable in such a respect, and I'm replying to it. Now, substantiate their knowledge on Jedi Lore, and then come back to me, because evidence isn't pointing to it being anything near worthy.



Or, he possessed average Force attunement, and simply possessed exceptional technical piloting ability that made up for it. Don't really care either way, you're making the claim, it's not my burden of proof. Now prove your case, or drop the point.

Oh, be banned already.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Nope, it was stated that Zannah could have killed Johun anytime. She deliberately left him alive because she realised that he was a bigger hindrance to his ally than he was to her.
That's kind of my point. If not for Johun, Zannah would be dead.

Oh, not this hoary old nonsense again. Sarro was trained at a point when there was piece. The war had been over for ten years. Until I see Sarro referred to as one of the best duelists in order history, with one being able to put down Quinlan Vos, I'll happily rank them above him

Most, yes. The highest masters like Agen, Saesee and Kit who weren't Niman users and all of whom trained and sparred with Mace on a regular basis? At the time Sarro was being trained, he was a Padawan when the war ended.

All of them are older than Sarro with a great deal more experiences with the best duelists in order history as peers and teachers. Sarro has little going for him but 'trained under Raskta, fought Zannah and died.'
The trio knows how to fight together, all have excellent defense and offensive abilities, feats to back themselves up and unlike Sarro, lots of experience.
Fighting three opponents at once of their caliber for more than seconds is rather impossible for Zannah.
She would have been killed against Sarro if not for Johun, this is unquestionable. This won't be an advantage against a trio of hardened blademasters.

Originally posted by Taven


The keyboard function you're looking for there would be .

Nebaris, the impossible has happened: your humor is actually degenerating.



Originally posted by Taven
Did I deny as much? The fact of the matter is that all that they have going for them is their technical ability (also, I don't know where you're gauging "dueling" - specifically - from, considering their time period was far less focused on lightsaber-on-lightsaber action given the period didn't demand it so much, and nothing regarding them speaks specifically on the matter). Sarro was clearly not lacking in that area one bit, and yet on top of that, as I explained, was as complete a fighter as any other Jedi, was being powered to extraordinary heights by Worror's BM, and his training and experience was far more focused on dueling against opponents such as the three mentioned Jedi. He was one of the top duelists of a far greater Jedi Order, and he was being powered heavily by BM. Puts him a good notch above a bunch of one trick ponies, that absolutely suck strategically as Jedi.

LOL. Okay, you know what? Sarro was more technically skilled than Bane, was graceful because of his technical skill, and all he had is brute strength! Nice try. 'Greatest swordsman'. We've been over this- part of being a swordsman in the Star Wars galaxy is force attunement and ability- they weren't the most 'skilled swordsman'- which refers purely to technical skill- but overall, 'greatest' and 'best'.

While that specific era focused less on dueling, it still holds that when they engaged in lightsaber combat with other lightsaber-wielding or at least people wielding melee weapons, they did just fine- when Kolar practically defeated Vos, and when Fisto took apart multiple magnaguards (droids who were said to have programming in all the forms, and were 'more than a match for most Jedi'), enough to awe General Grievous (causing him to refer to Kit as a 'true Jedi'), who had slaughtered hundreds of Jedi.

Oh, and a vastly inferior Jedi Order? Right. Then how come it was called 'the prime of the Jedi' by George friggin' Lucas, contained the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' (puts him a notch or two above Raskta, Farfalla, and co., eh?), 'one of the deadliest Jedi in history' who had mastered a form incomplete for a milennia and formed the most lethal form in existence, the ultimate master of Soresu ("the most cunning Jedi", and the Chosen One, whose raw power is well beyond any who preceded him and was the 'strongest and fastest Jedi', perhaps of any generation. Yeah, right. 'Vastly inferior Jedi Order'.

In addition, did you ever heard of the phrase "quality before quantity?" The fact that there were far less Jedi in the PT-era implies that much greater dedication and care was put into every single Jedi.

Originally posted by Taven
One of the greatest in a galaxy wide 20,000 year old institution. Substantiate what that truly amounts to, and then substantiate what real significance technical ability truly has (which is all the statement measures), and then, if you manage to do that, substantiate how it puts him above a top tier Jedi of the greatest Order of Jedi there had likely ever been and ever will be, who was being powered tremendously by BM, and was far more specialised at fighting against lightsaber wielding Force users and far more complete a fighter than Agen could even hope to dream of.

Just because Agen wasn't extensively described in combat at any given time doesn't mean he's below Sarro; it's not 'technical skill', which you would see if you stopped being so persistently blind and biased towards PT characters. Also, that so-called 'uber Jedi order!!!11!!' was put as inferior to the PT Jedi Order by George Lucas himself. In addition, the only thing we know of that Jedi Order is the fact that they were more trained to battle other lightsaber users- basing the fact that they were the greatest Jedi Order ever is pointless, stupid, and unsupported. Especially when other than Bane and Kas'im, every single Sith in the Brotherhood of Darkness was pathetic, worthless bantha fodder.

Originally posted by Taven
QV was unique purely because of his psychometric power, something entirely irrelevant on a dueling situation, and something that was both powered by his Force ability and his natural ability as a guardian (and thus, not completely testament to his ability with the Force).

Fair enough.



Originally posted by Taven
Irrelevant misdirection. That Mace has such faith in his ability and highly trusted him speaks of Agen's ability in comparison to any other Jedi who might fill such a spot, not to Mace Windu himself, so posting evidence of Mace's notability amounts to nothing. Oh, and for the record, Dooku was the only Jedi of his time to master Makashi, so sadly, Mace Windu most certainly did not master all the forms. Unlucky. And the only thing that was labelled "deadliest" was Vaapad. Stop repeating this falsehood.

Shatterpoint calls Windu one of the deadliest Jedi in history- and being the only, and greatest known master of the 'deadliest' form only speaks for his ability. The fact of the matter is, the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel referred to Mace and Kolar as the best counters to Darth Sidious, who, as Dooku's master, was probably speculated by the council to be even stronger than Dooku.

In addition, Vaapad requires mastery- or at least knowledge- of all forms. I was aware of Dooku being the greatest Makashi practitioner in the Jedi Order. But the only one? Can you prove it?



Originally posted by Taven
LOL. So he was able to outclass a guy with no real proven skills and no notability whatsoever. Nice argument. Now, substantiate Obi-Wan's level of ability as of AotC, and then get back to me, or drop the point.



In a force empowered rage that granted him tremendous temporary advantages. Not testament to his regular level of ability. Try again. Also, you make an effort of pointing out the ten years that had passed, when in all truth, while his Force ability would have most definitely improved during the period, his lightsaber ability most likely went down a good notch or two, given he had completely abandoned the form of combat that he had been practising for about twenty years, and started from scratch with Soresu and only practised it for about half the time he had Ataru. If his overall level of ability was even greater after those ten years, it was marginal, at best.

Apparently, he didn't 'completely abandon it', as he utilized it in multiple battles in RotS. In addition- if anything, having near-mastery of a certain form (there's no indication that he 'completely' abandoned it, only that it was no longer his emphasis), in addition to being a highly talented practioner of Soresu (training in a form for 10 years, when you're a talented Jedi Master, tends to make you an exceptional practioner of said form). In addition, prove that it was force-enhanced and not just a rage. While it gives you a noteworthy boost of power for a short while, it's not enough to compensate for 10 years of seasoning, experience, and extensive training.



Originally posted by Taven
There's only one passage of text that declares them both knowledgeable in such a respect, and I'm replying to it. Now, substantiate their knowledge on Jedi Lore, and then come back to me, because evidence isn't pointing to it being anything near worthy.

As Jedi Masters of renown, they no doubt spent plenty of time studying the Jedi Archives (that had an immense amount of information), to learn of past Jedi of old- it's also possible that Yoda or Mace told them that information.



Originally posted by Taven
Or, he possessed average Force attunement, and simply possessed exceptional technical piloting ability that made up for it. Don't really care either way, you're making the claim, it's not my burden of proof. Now prove your case, or drop the point.

Or he didn't. The reason why Jedi Pilots are so much greater than regular pilots is because of force attunement- why do you think Anakin was such an amazing pilot? Technical ability? Heh. Being good enough to impress Anakin Skywalker implies an extraordinary amount of force attunement (as does being one of the best swordsman in the order's history). Try again.

Anakin with or without the force WAS a legit amazing pilot, one of if not the best ever in the SW galaxy, don't knock his skills.

I didn't 'mock his skills'. He's an amazingly skilled pilot- but he's the best because of his force attunement.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I didn't 'mock his skills'. He's an amazingly skilled pilot- but he's the best because of his force attunement. What about during TPM when he had NO force training?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I didn't 'mock his skills'. He's an amazingly skilled pilot- but he's the best because of his force attunement.


I said knock not mock...while I agree, the force certainly helps (reflexes, foresight and such) there is apparently something else that sets aside Anakin from the rest of the force users piloting ships, his sheer skill for piloting. I mean a little into the Clone Wars and he's flat out stated by the Council to be the best pilot they have. Had it simply been his force connection doing all the work then why aren't people whom at the time were stronger in the force then Anakin better pilots?

I just dislike this new thing in the EU where no one has any legitimate skills and its all "LOLZ da force did it!" Why can't they just be really damn good?


And where the hell is it stated Grievous has killed "hundreds of jedi"? Maybe over a dozen at best...

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
What about during TPM when he had NO force training?

Key word, attunement. Not 'mastery'. Anakin Skywalker's force attunement is unmatched, and was the only reason why he possessed the sufficient insight and reflexes to master pod-racing, an act no other human had ever achieved. Of course, he has natural talent and is a technically skilled pilot- but it's his force attunement, reflexes, precognition, and his creativity that enable him to truly be an incredible pilot.


Originally posted by Chick MagnetI said knock not mock...while I agree, the force certainly helps (reflexes, foresight and such) there is apparently something else that sets aside Anakin from the rest of the force users piloting ships, his sheer skill for piloting. I mean a little into the Clone Wars and he's flat out stated by the Council to be the best pilot they have. Had it simply been his force connection doing all the work then why aren't people whom at the time were stronger in the force then Anakin better pilots?

I just dislike this new thing in the EU where no one has any legitimate skills and its all "LOLZ da force did it!" Why can't they just be really damn good?


And where the hell is it stated Grievous has killed "hundreds of jedi"? Maybe over a dozen at best...

Because, maybe, Anakin's strength in the force is greater than anyone in the Star Wars mythos, bar none? Yeah. I think it just might be that.

As much as I dislike that whole "people are just vessels to the powa of the force!!!" thing, it's canon.

Even if Grievous only killed, say, 50 Jedi, it's still amazing that he is highly impressed by Kit Fisto's abilities, as some of the Jedi he fought were top-tier, like Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Adi Gallia, formidable Council Members and rather skilled duelists.

And this is the same Grievous who made Mace f*cking Windu not want to prolong the engagement them. The same usually highly arrogant Grievous, who Dooku was 'hard pressed' to defeat in sparring sessions.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Key word, attunement. Not 'mastery'. Anakin Skywalker's force attunement is unmatched, and was the only reason why he possessed the sufficient insight and reflexes to master pod-racing, an act no other human had ever achieved. Of course, he has natural talent and is a technically skilled pilot- but it's his force attunement, reflexes, precognition, and his creativity that enable him to truly be an incredible pilot.



Good point but now can you actually quote a reliable source which proves that the force was actually aiding him for his reflexes in TPM?

I still do remember obiwan in ROTJ labelling him the greatest pilot in the galaxy.

Oh now you admit that...and no, Anakin's POTENTIAL is greater then anyones, his ACTUAL manifested power...not so much (Luke, Jacen, Yoda, Sidious off the top of my head surpass him) especially during the time were the quote that I put is stated.

Jacen stands out as one who has alot of force power, surpassing that of Anakin, but during his tenure in the Rough Squad, he still wasn't a better pilot then Anakin. Neither is Luke.



Debatable. The Sith namely would disagree with that notion.



I don't care. I want some STATED figures on how many Jedi he's killed before you go slinging hyperbole BS like "he's killed hundreds" around.



Once again: I don't care. I'm not arguing with you, I just want your sources.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Oh now you admit that...

Huh? Did I ever deny that little piece of information? If I did, I would be stupid.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
and no, Anakin's POTENTIAL is greater then anyones, his ACTUAL manifested power...not so much (Luke, Jacen, Yoda, Sidious off the top of my head surpass him) especially during the time were the quote that I put is stated.

I think you have a slight misunderstand of 'force strength'. Anakin had the most midichlorians in galactic history- midichlorians amount fo one's strength in the force. Similarly, one's strength in the force is equivalent to 'force attunement'. The person with the most power in the force has the potential to be capable of using the force to the greatest extent- which is why Yoda, despite having lesser strength in the force than Anakin, will be able to curbstomp him in a force fight- he has far greater control over it, so he is capable of using it in the most devastating manner.

In addition, Anakin- despite having 'less manifested force power' than Dooku, by your logic, as Dooku's force feats curbstomp Anakin's own, overpowered the more technically skilled Count via his innate power with the force.

For example- if someone is, physically, the physically strongest being in the universe, he might have the potential to be the best fistfighter in the world- but other individuals of lesser strength can use their power in a more efficient, controlled manner to curbstomp said person in personal combat.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Jacen stands out as one who has alot of force power, surpassing that of Anakin, but during his tenure in the Rough Squad, he still wasn't a better pilot then Anakin. Neither is Luke.

First of all, Jacen is undoubtedly weaker in terms of raw power in the force when in comparison to Anakin- Luke, however, has just as much strength in the force, or slightly lesser- but Anakin is more technically skilled, or so I believe. This is incredibly similar to lightsaber combat- there's technical skill, and there's how much the force impacts one's own skill- if two people have equal ability with the force, their technical ability will make all the difference. The same applies if they have equal technical skill- and if one has greater technical skill and the other greater force power, it usually happens that the one with superior force power triumphs.

The level of strength and attunement one has to the force effects their piloting- Anakin's innate power enabled him to gain levels of reflexes and precognition well beyond most pilots in history.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Debatable. The Sith namely would disagree with that notion.

Maybe it's because the Sith use the force in an entirely different manner than the Jedi?



Originally posted by Chick Magnet
I don't care. I want some STATED figures on how many Jedi he's killed before you go slinging hyperbole BS like "he's killed hundreds" around.

Try exaggeration.



Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Once again: I don't care. I'm not arguing with you, I just want your sources.

Once again, I was exaggerating the amount of Jedi General Grievous killed- however, it still stands that he killed an immense amount of Jedi, some of them being exceptionally talented.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Good point but now can you actually quote a reliable source which proves that the force was actually aiding him for his reflexes in TPM?

I still do remember obiwan in ROTJ labelling him the greatest pilot in the galaxy.

First of all, I'm not at my own house now so I don't have access to most of the sources- but I'm certain that if you check the TPM novel, both the pod scene and the battle in space offer plenty of descriptions of how Anakin 'surrendered to his instincts' or some kind of cliched EU shit like that.

Anakin is certainly the greatest pilot in the galaxy- but it comes virtue both of his technical ability and his attunement to the force. For example, the RotS novel says that Anakin's flying "transcends mere flying in the same way that Jedi combat transcends a schoolyard scuffle".

Thats the definition of hyperbole....




See, had you said that in the first place there wouldn't have been a problem, as I've said; yes the force certainly does help Anakin, but he is also very innately skilled at piloting that goes beyond simply: the force did it. That was my only beef.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
See, had you said that in the first place there wouldn't have been a problem, as I've said; yes the force certainly does help Anakin, but he is also very innately skilled at piloting that goes beyond simply: the force did it. That was my only beef.

He is innately skilled in piloting; but without the force, he wouldn't have been the best pilot in the galaxy. In order to truly be an amazing pilot, one needs the force- being a great pilot implies that Tiin's connection and mastery over the force were high.

After such a long hiatus, Nebaris has coped with his fear and returned... even lesser than before. Master Crimzon crushed that argument pretty handily. Good for you.

Thank you.

Define amazing...cause I think Han Solo, Wedge Antilles, Jango and Boba Fett, Tycho Celchu, and Jagged Fel are all amazing pilots. And yes the force does give advantages that these people simply can't have, however I think that in itself is a strength because they have to be a hell of a lot more creative then those who simply have an energy field telling them what to do. I despise the idea that force sensitives are automatically better at everything then EVERYONE else period cause they can touch the force. This idea has been shown to false also in Star Wars when someone like Thrawn exists who'd most likely shit on any force sensitive in a naval engagement. Non force sensitives are underated beyond belief, we have Jango Fett killing multiple Jedi with his bare hands, Durge laying the smackdown on Anakin Skywalker. You CAN be an amazing pilot/fighter/tactician WITHOUT the force.

Rant ova...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon


First of all, I'm not at my own house now so I don't have access to most of the sources- but I'm certain that if you check the TPM novel, both the pod scene and the battle in space offer plenty of descriptions of how Anakin 'surrendered to his instincts' or some kind of cliched EU shit like that.
Your "certain" its stated in the TPM novel and aren't even sure of it?

But then again what about his technical flying skills alone(Meaning no attunement)? Of course yes the force attunement would further aid his skills but to what extent exactly?

The force alone can't simply make you an "ub3R" pilot, it is simply is there to further enhance your already solid reflexes and skills.

The same way bodybuilding supplements work, they are only there to assist you further with an already solid eating and work out regime, the supplements alone won't help you gain the muscle mass you need... same way the force attunement alone won't make you a great pilot...


Anyways i'm not looking for another debate as i was merely addressing a point.

But you are partially right, that he is the greatest pilot partly due to his attunement, but then again read my above posts and you should understand what i am implying(which is that without the attunement he should already be a remarkable pilot).

EDIT

And please try to at least understand what i am trying to say before you come up with a rebutal.

Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Define amazing...cause I think Han Solo, Wedge Antilles, Jango and Boba Fett, Tycho Celchu, and Jagged Fel are all amazing pilots. And yes the force does give advantages that these people simply can't have, however I think that in itself is a strength because they have to be a hell of a lot more creative then those who simply have an energy field telling them what to do. I despise the idea that force sensitives are automatically better at everything then EVERYONE else period cause they can touch the force. This idea has been shown to false also in Star Wars when someone like Thrawn exists who'd most likely shit on any force sensitive in a naval engagement. Non force sensitives are underated beyond belief, we have Jango Fett killing multiple Jedi with his bare hands, Durge laying the smackdown on Anakin Skywalker. You CAN be an amazing pilot/fighter/tactician WITHOUT the force.

Rant ova...

First of all, tactics have nothing to do with the force- while being force-sensitive, thanks to precognition, may give a slight advantage, but it's hardly major. Two of the best tacticians in Star Wars history, General Grievous and Thrawn, weren't force-sensitive and they still fared fine (Grievous in particular, against armies that contained force-sensitive people).

Yes, these people you listed are exceptional pilots, but that's exclusively due to their technical skill- in addition, Anakin was the best pilot in the galaxy when Clones, trained pilots who possessed Jango Fett's genes, roamed around, and Anakin was head and shoulders above them. Why? The Force. As much as I like non force-sensitive people, they are inferior to force sensitive people in almost all manners.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Your "certain" its stated in the TPM novel and aren't even sure of it?

But then again what about his technical flying skills alone(Meaning no attunement)? Of course yes the force attunement would further aid his skills but to what extent exactly?

The force alone can't simply make you an "ub3R" pilot, it is simply is there to further enhance your already solid reflexes and skills.

The same way bodybuilding supplements work, they are only there to assist you further with an already solid eating and work out regime, the supplements alone won't help you gain the muscle mass you need... same way the force attunement alone won't make you a great pilot...


Anyways i'm not looking for another debate as i was merely addressing a point.

But you are partially right, that he is the greatest pilot partly due to his attunement, but then again read my above posts and you should understand what i am implying(which is that without the attunement he should already be a remarkable pilot).

EDIT

And please try to at least understand what i am trying to say before you come up with a rebutal.

First of, I apologize for the double-post. Second of all, I read the TPM novel and remember these sorts of things, if not the exact quotes- give me a few days and I can provide you with quotes. Third of all, I did not once deny Anakin's incredible technical skill, but what truly made him the best pilot in the galaxy was his force attunement, which supplemented his already formidable technical skill. Why do you think he was better than an entire galaxy's worth of people like Jango Fett? Because of his force attunement.

Of course, having the force doesn't make you 'uber', but it greatly helps. Anakin was amazing because of technical skills and the force- without either of them, he wouldn't have been the best.

Good Lord, what is it with morons and being overly and annoyingly persistent?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Nebaris, the impossible has happened: your humor is actually degenerating.

That was supposed to come out , apparently my keyboard's playing nasty tricks on me.



Which Zannah notes with obvious high regard, as follows:

"Even though her technique was more refined than her Master's, she'd been able to withstand his assault ... so far."

Which speaks a hell of a lot for his saber technique, considering Bane's the guy who was able to perfectly memories and counter the millions of moves and sequences that make up all seven forms of the saber staff in under two years; in over five times the amount of time, it's pretty clear that he would have made a tremendous improvement and reached an extremely high level of ability, as it's noted that he spent time refining his technique during the period.

And unlike these Masters, his training focused on combating the Sith, he would have most definitely fought them in the War (in response to Lightsnake bringing up the fact that he was a padawan during the war, Force sensitive children were called on to fight in the war, it's pretty clear Padawans would have received their fair share of battle experience), and as such would be much more specialised at combating lightsaber wielding Force Users than your three one trick ponies.



Grace =/= lightsaber refinery.



As well as astonishing speed, elegance, and as an overall swordsman, was believed to possess few peers in the entire Galaxy, and when BM powered, was capable of outclassing Darth fricking Zannah.



We have been over this, and you stopped replying the last time, most likely because you knew that your argument had no leg to stand on.

How 'great' or 'fine' a swordsman is measures purely how good they are with the weapon itself, and that's it. Their speed, strength etc. doesn't tell you how good they are with the weapon, but rather how effective they would be able to use it in a miscellaneous situation, ergo, it has no effect on how great they are as swordsmen specifically.

If you believe otherwise, prove up on your stance.



And? I'm not saying that they suck as duelists because of it, but that they're naturally at a disadvantage when stacked up to beings who's training was focused around dueling and combating other Force Users and Lightsaber Practitioners, and who received a high level of battle experience, again, against lightsaber wielding Sith, on top of that



Substantiate Vos's level of ability, and then get back to me, as you failed miserably the last time.



Well he was only able to take two of them on at once, and it took him as long to defeat them as it did Mace to defeat Grievous. And while they're extremely technically skilled, at the end of the day, they're still just droids, they're not sensitive to the force, and as such, don't receive the many advantages that the Force provides them: such as the inhuman speed, strength, reflexes, or precognition. Shaak Ti was after all capable of holding her own against about twelve of them; they may have been 'more than a match for most Jedi,' but it's made quite clear that would stand literally no chance against an upper tier Jedi, which Sarro most certainly is, by virtue of deeds, reputation and proven ability.



Grievous was hardly in 'awe' of him, he simply stated that his assault on the many Jedi protecting the Chancellor might not have been so successful had he surrounded himself with Jedi such as the likes of Kit Fisto. Meaning even then, he only questioned whether he would be able to take on the likes of a group of Kit Fisto level Jedi, it's quite clear that he certainly didn't think of Kit as individually posing a threat against him.

And as AC Styles pointed out, that number amounts to nothing more than hopeful hyperbole.



Yes. In numbers, training, battle experience, mentality, and emphasis on dueling and fighting against the Sith. Vastly inferior.



Define 'the prime of the Jedi' and prove that the meaning is anything remotely related to combat and personal power. It could just as easily be in reference to the time of peace (it was made with reference to the time of The Phantom Menace) that the Jedi policed over as it could their level of power.



1. I've already explained why the canonicity of that quote should be brought into question; it immediately goes on to say that the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' just didn't have what it takes to defeat Sidious, in response to a battle between the two that depicted Sidious kicking Yoda's ass all over the place, which clearly contradicts the movie. Now before you go on about narration and character thoughts not being subject to retcon, they are when they're dependant on invalid events, which is exactly what's the case.

2. Even assuming that it's a canonical piece of narration, define it, and then get back to me, because power can be defined as the capacity to be effective, Yoda's labelled a direct foe of the 'darkness,' a force of nature that had lived throughout the ages and presumably can never be completely destroyed, and as such, it's highly likely that the quote is in allusion to Yoda's role in the grand scheme of things, and how much of a threat he had been to the darkness throughout the many centuries he had been alive. Now, prove up on your interpretation, or drop the point.

3. Even assuming that Yoda was the most combat capable Jedi ever, he's an ancient Jedi Grandmaster who had lived for centuries and who's midi-chlorian level was presumably the highest of the PT era before Anakin came along. He's not an accurate representative of the Jedi Order as a whole, ergo, you have no point.



Again, another Jedi who was essentially an anomaly within his Order. Not an accurate representative of the Order as a whole. Also, please source that quote, as I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist.



Now you're just being ridiculous. Obi-Wan Kenobi's praise fully stems from his position within his Order. The structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for how the Order itself compares to those before or after it, ergo, you have no point.



1. The 'well beyond' demands proof.

2. Again, he's the Chosen One, another anomaly. He's not an accurate representative of his Order, ergo, you still have no point.



Again, how good someone was in relation to the Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole.



The term 'Perhaps' would immediately bring the statement into question, can be considered hyperbolic, but that doesn't matter anyway, as the fricking Chosen One is not the quintessential PT Jedi. Far from it.

Good Lord you're dense. All you've managed to do is list a bunch of in-order hierarchies, as well as name a few anomalies within the Order and list their accomplishments. For the former, the structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole, and for the latter, an anomaly isn't an accurate representative of a sample. You haven't proven a thing for the Order as a whole. Try again.



The old Order has both. Far higher numbers, and far greater emphasis on fighting the Sith and dueling, better training, and better battle experience.



Which is simply retarded. The higher numbers in the AoL times would apply to both the Masters and the students. Nothing indicates that the Master-student ratio would have been any different, meaning you have no point. For less care to be given in respect to training and such would require that the ratio between student and master be more in favour to the students for the AoL times in comparison to the PT times. Nothing even hints that as much is the case.

Also, in case you missed the point, I was simply pointing out that Sarro was a larger fish in a far larger pond. That he was in such a position among such a higher number of Jedi speaks far more highly for his level of ability, as he would face more competition than others would.

There's also the cosmic effect that number of Jedi would have had on the Light side of the Force. As PoD notes, the darkside works best when focused in a small number, and the fact that Kaan's Order numbered in the thousands had been weakening and filtering the darkside. The opposite's the case with the Jedi; the higher the numbers, the stronger the light side of the Force.



We argue by virtue of what we know, and all that Agen has going for him is amazing technical ability. Sarro has the same, albeit to a lesser degree, but amazing strength, speed, grace, and elegance on top of that, and his reputation would indicate that he was higher up than the three were in his already far more impressive Order. When powered by Battle Meditation, he was capable of outclassing someone as powerful as Zannah (who as I said, would realistically be at a level of ability somewhere between Bane's PoD and Ro2 incarnations).



If you feel so strongly about it, prove up. Analyse the exact meaning behind 'greatest' and 'swordsmen,' examine what effect each word has on each other, use real world and literary examples, and prove, undeniably, that the statement measures more than just their technical ability. Do that, and then you can claim that Agen and Seasee and Kit have more going for them than just their technical ability.



Not from a combat standpoint.



It's not my problem if you want to pretend that the evidence isn't there, but sadly for you, it is.

Their numbers were higher, their training was superior, they were more battle hardened, there was a greater emphasis on dueling and combating the Sith, they possessed more of a warrior's mentality, and given, again, the numbers, the Light Side of the Force (what they draw on to power themselves up) would have most definitely flourished during the period.



ROFL. I'd love it if you could prove any of that. Just because the others may not have displayed that much doesn't mean that they have little going for them. Also, why the hell are you bringing up the BoD, we're talking about the AoL and the Jedi Order that followed, keep up.



Quote and Page Number. Not that it matters, my argument's not based around Mace, but his Order, and being an anomaly within his Order, is not an accurate representation of it.



Why are you bringing up what the omniscient narrator states, and then bringing up the council's potential speculations? I don't even know what point you think you're trying to make here.



Replace 'all' with 'multiple,' and you'd be correct. No proof whatsoever that Mace was even proficient with Makashi.



I don't really care enough about the point to search through a bunch of material and find the quote for you; at the end of the day, you made the claim that Windu had mastered all forms, the burden of proof falls on you to prove up, and you clearly can't (primarily due to the fact that it's impossible in this case, as the evidence is nonexistent).



He completely abandoned the practise of it, yes. I never stated that he would never use it again in a stand alone incident, but that's all it was, one time, to dupe Dooku .



There is, actually: noting its defencive flaws and the weakness and vulnerability that surfaced with Qui-Gon's death, he decided never to use the form again and start completely afresh with Soresu. How proficient he may have been with it matters little, as he no longer utilised it in combat.



The point I was making was that he only practised the form for half the time he did with Ataru. As talented as Obi-wan may have been, he was always that talented, both when he was practising Ataru, and when he was mastering Soresu. With only half the time spent mastering Soresu that he spent with Ataru, and no longer utilising his original form, common sense dictates that his technique went down by a fair margin.



They're not mutually exclusive. When you give into your rage, you tap into the dark side of the Force, which in turn provides a significant boost to your abilities. And that would be the only explanation, given how easily Maul was able to take down Obi-Wan's Master, Qui-Gon, and how Obi-Wan was stated to be 'not yet his equal.'



As has already been established, the ten years wouldn't have made that big an overall difference to his ability, and either way, prove up. Maul was vastly more technically skilled (being a high end master of multiple forms), was using an unorthodox weapon, and was physically far better conditioned. He clearly didn't have any trouble breaking through his Force defences and Force pushing him on his ass either. That Obi-Wan was able to compete with him at all would suggest that the rage provided tremendous temporary advantages.



That makes... absolutely no sense, whatsoever. So because they were Jedi of renown, Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti = history buffs? Right...



Possible, but unproven. Prove up, or drop the point. Substantiate their credibility at making such a claim.

I never denied as much, but what separated Saesee from his fellow Jedi could have easily been his technical ability, and not his Force attunement, which could have just as well remained average.



Amazing Force attunement and talent as a pilot. But that's Anakin. Anakin is not Saesee. What makes Anakin an amazing pilot doesn't have to be what makes Saesee an amazing pilot. Now, prove up on your claims, or drop the point.



It's a possibility, which is all that I need to provide proof of, considering it's your burden of proof.



No, it implies that as an overall pilot, he was exceptionally gifted. You can't prove that being that great a pilot demands even above average Force attunement, ergo, you have no point. Unlucky.



As already established, no. Try harder.

LOL.

Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tinn, Sora Bulq (and, by some extention, Depa Billaba). That's ten Jedi whose skills have been lauded as elite or powerful even compared to the entire history of the Jedi Order, twenty-five thousand years. Meanwhile, the "prime of the Jedi" statement was issued during a time that the Order's numbers had dwindled to a "mere 10,000" and beginning the rise to power of the most powerful Sith Lord in history, where the dark side of the Force was beginning to take dominance. It clearly refers to combat capability. George Lucas and I > RoT and the EU > you.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
First of, I apologize for the double-post. Second of all, I read the TPM novel and remember these sorts of things, if not the exact quotes- give me a few days and I can provide you with quotes. Third of all, I did not once deny Anakin's incredible technical skill, but what truly made him the best pilot in the galaxy was his force attunement, which supplemented his already formidable technical skill. Why do you think he was better than an entire galaxy's worth of people like Jango Fett? Because of his force attunement.

Of course, having the force doesn't make you 'uber', but it greatly helps. Anakin was amazing because of technical skills and the force- without either of them, he wouldn't have been the best.


Wait a minute, you completely misunderstood my point.

I already made it clear that the force assists your already solid reflexs and piloting skills the same way that supplements assist your already solid eating and gym regime.(At least you seem to got this)

I have already asked you and you have yet to answer, to what extent does the force assist him in such situations? You are making it as if it helps him by an incredibly large margin which you have yet to prove.

So, what is your point exactly? That he is the greatest pilot due to both his "amazing" talents and "force attunement"? If so, why bring out and argue a point that most of us already know?

BTW don't bother arguing with nebaris, no matter how many times you own or smash him he keeps coming back like a broken record. Just ignore him.

LOL. Apparently after the 500 curbstomps you still] think you can win one against me.



Substantiate.

In a Galaxy Wide and over 20,000 year long organisation, define what it means to be "one of the best" or "one of the greatest."

In the greatest era for Jedi there's ever been, it's really not that much of a stretch to conclude that a few of these "greatest" or "best" would be present.



Did you not just read through my post (silly question, you make it a habit to read everything that comes out of my computer screen)? Their lower number is a condition that I listed for them being a less imrpessive order. A possible interpretation of the statement that I presented was that The Jedi were in their prime due to their era's relative level of peace.



The beginning to the rise. Exactly. He hadn't risen to power quite at that time, ergo, it wouldn't undermine the idea that the Prime of the Jedi is in reference to something other than combat prowess and personal power.



Beginning.



Prove it.



No, it goes: Drew Karpyshyn and Karen Traviss > George Lucas and Nick Gillard > Gilliad Pallalaon > Publius.

Originally posted by Taven
LOL. Apparently after the 500 curbstomps you still] think you can win one against me.



Substantiate.

In a Galaxy Wide and over 20,000 year long organisation, define what it means to be "one of the best" or "one of the greatest."

In the greatest era for Jedi there's ever been, it's really not that much of a stretch to conclude that a few of these "greatest" or "best" would be present.



Did you not just read through my post (silly question, you make it a habit to read everything that comes out of my computer screen)? Their lower number is a condition that I listed for them being a less imrpessive order. A possible interpretation of the statement that I presented was that The Jedi were in their prime due to their era's relative level of peace.



The beginning to the rise. Exactly. He hadn't risen to power quite at that time, ergo, it wouldn't undermine the idea that the Prime of the Jedi is in reference to something other than combat prowess and personal power.



Beginning.



Prove it.



No, it goes: Drew Karpyshyn and Karen Traviss > George Lucas and Nick Gillard > Gilliad Pallalaon > Publius.

http://lambkill.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/normal_uncle-sam-stfu.jpg

You know, I'm going to amend that actually.

Nadal > all of you... so good day.

Gideon, you are mistaken, because you are speaking about the incredibly reliable, omniscent, and non-biased Nebaris!

Originally posted by Taven
Good Lord, what is it with morons and being overly and annoyingly persistent?

Ask yourself, and you might get the answer.

Originally posted by Taven
Which Zannah notes with obvious high regard, as follows:

"Even though her technique was more refined than her Master's, she'd been able to withstand his assault ... so far."

Which speaks a hell of a lot for his saber technique, considering Bane's the guy who was able to perfectly memories and counter the millions of moves and sequences that make up all seven forms of the saber staff in under two years; in over five times the amount of time, it's pretty clear that he would have made a tremendous improvement and reached an extremely high level of ability, as it's noted that he spent time refining his technique during the period.

Wonderful, Nebaris, because Bane- a person who relied on battering opponents into submission via brute strength, speed, and his completely lack of need for defense is unlikely to be particularly refined in his movements. In addition, because he has knowledge of the moves utilizing by the saber staff does not mean he can proficiently use them- having knowledge of moves does not mean you can necessarily employ them. For example, I know the someone may be capable of a somersault- but does it mean I can do the same? Hardly.

Now, prove that Bane was amazingly refined, or drop the point.

Originally posted by Taven
And unlike these Masters, his training focused on combating the Sith, he would have most definitely fought them in the War (in response to Lightsnake bringing up the fact that he was a padawan during the war, Force sensitive children were called on to fight in the war, it's pretty clear Padawans would have received their fair share of battle experience), and as such would be much more specialised at combating lightsaber wielding Force Users than your three one trick ponies.



Grace =/= lightsaber refinery.

So, I'm expected to believe that if someone fought more often against people who wielded lightsabers, they are automatically better than people who had studied primarily to combat blaster technology? The PT Jedi have also sparred extensively with their peers, so they obviously had experience with fighting people wielding lightsabers.



Originally posted by Taven
As well as astonishing speed, elegance, and as an overall swordsman, was believed to possess few peers in the entire Galaxy, and when BM powered, was capable of outclassing Darth fricking Zannah.

Let's compare 'Darth fricking Zannah' to the other famous practioner of Soresu in history, right? Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is acknowledged as the absolute master of Soresu, was capable of blocking 20 strikes per second and stunned Dooku with his 'bewilderingly fast defense'. The same Obi-Wan who outclasses her in every shape and form other than in force mastery. And do you remember Obi-Wan was from the PT-era, right?

And now, prove that he had few peers in the entire galaxy.

Originally posted by Taven
How 'great' or 'fine' a swordsman is measures purely how good they are with the weapon itself, and that's it. Their speed, strength etc. doesn't tell you how good they are with the weapon, but rather how effective they would be able to use it in a miscellaneous situation, ergo, it has no effect on how great they are as swordsmen specifically.

If you believe otherwise, prove up on your stance.

I've proven over, and over again why greatness with a weapon in Star Wars mentions how good someone is, overall, with a blade. Your persistence is truly staggering.

Originally posted by Taven
Well he was only able to take two of them on at once, and it took him as long to defeat them as it did Mace to defeat Grievous. And while they're extremely technically skilled, at the end of the day, they're still just droids, they're not sensitive to the force, and as such, don't receive the many advantages that the Force provides them: such as the inhuman speed, strength, reflexes, or precognition. Shaak Ti was after all capable of holding her own against about twelve of them; they may have been 'more than a match for most Jedi,' but it's made quite clear that would stand literally no chance against an upper tier Jedi, which Sarro most certainly is, by virtue of deeds, reputation and proven ability.

Precognition? Sure. But the else? They are machines, and like Grievous, have machine-based reflexes that enable them to move faster than the eye can see (Revenge of the Sith Novelization). They are also study droids, implying that they, like Grievous, are capable of superhuman feats of strength- while that, specifically, may not be above a Jedi's ability, it's most certainly impressive.



Originally posted by Taven
Grievous was hardly in 'awe' of him, he simply stated that his assault on the many Jedi protecting the Chancellor might not have been so successful had he surrounded himself with Jedi such as the likes of Kit Fisto. Meaning even then, he only questioned whether he would be able to take on the likes of a group of Kit Fisto level Jedi, it's quite clear that he certainly didn't think of Kit as individually posing a threat against him.

Really? A person like Grievous, when noting the formidable abilities of a certain Jedi and noting the fact that they might prove a worthy challenge to him, especially when he had fought with Jedi like Shaak Ti and Ki-Adi-Mundi and was never said to be particularly impressed by their abilities in combat, it's quite obvious that he is looking at an exceptionally skilled combatant.

Originally posted by Taven
Yes. In numbers, training, battle experience, mentality, and emphasis on dueling and fighting against the Sith. Vastly inferior.

Refer to what Gideon said.

Originally posted by Taven
2. Even assuming that it's a canonical piece of narration, define it, and then get back to me, because power can be defined as the capacity to be effective, Yoda's labelled a direct foe of the 'darkness,' a force of nature that had lived throughout the ages and presumably can never be completely destroyed, and as such, it's highly likely that the quote is in allusion to Yoda's role in the grand scheme of things, and how much of a threat he had been to the darkness throughout the many centuries he had been alive. Now, prove up on your interpretation, or drop the point.

The typical Nebaris. Yoda was called the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known'- seeing as every Jedi in history is, by definition, a foe of the darkness, it clearly establishes that Yoda has the most devastating power of any Jedi in history. It has nothing to do with the accumulated amount of time he spent battling the darkness. In fact, your entire point makes me 'lol' with how ridiculous it is.

Originally posted by Taven
3. Even assuming that Yoda was the most combat capable Jedi ever, he's an ancient Jedi Grandmaster who had lived for centuries and who's midi-chlorian level was presumably the highest of the PT era before Anakin came along. He's not an accurate representative of the Jedi Order as a whole, ergo, you have no point.

No- but Yoda had trained EVERY SINGLE Jedi in the Prequel Era. While he did not train them extensively, getting first-hand training from the greatest Jedi in history up to that point is certainly a factor in the overall power levels depicted in the Prequels.

Originally posted by Taven
Again, another Jedi who was essentially an anomaly within his Order. Not an accurate representative of the Order as a whole. Also, please source that quote, as I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist.

I don't own Shatterpoint, but I'm fairly certain that quote exists- but nevertheless, I'll stop using it due to the fact that I can't show you the quote in question.

Originally posted by Taven
Now you're just being ridiculous. Obi-Wan Kenobi's praise fully stems from his position within his Order. The structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for how the Order itself compares to those before or after it, ergo, you have no point.

No, but the fact that most of the greatest Jedi in history were produced by the so-called 'inferior' Jedi order speaks for the overall level of ability displayed within it. You really ought to stop trying to pass it all off as due to the individual ability of these certain Jedi.

Originally posted by Taven
2. Again, he's the Chosen One, another anomaly. He's not an accurate representative of his Order, ergo, you still have no point.

Who trained him to use the force to the same extent? Obi-Wan and the Masters of the Jedi Order.



Originally posted by Taven
Again, how good someone was in relation to the Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole.

And once again, you fail to see how the Order that has released the greatest amount of top-tier force users in Galactic History says something for the order in its entirety, rather than just due to these people's personal ability.

Originally posted by Taven
LOL. Apparently after the 500 curbstomps you still] think you can win one against me.

Ah, yes, cue the predictable delusions of victory. Persistence in defeat isn't admirable, Nebaris, it's only pathetic and pitiful. Coming to these forums, weeks after your rather brutal defeat at my hands , hasn't done wonders for your dull wit and misplaced intelligence. You're back on that slippery slope, a one way, inevitable trip to utter failure. Some people never change.



Alas, there's a greater collective of duelists referred to as the best ever in the prequel trilogy moreso than your vaunted RoT-era. Ergo, it would seem to imply that the PT > RoT.



Indeed, which means they are referred to as "the prime of the Jedi" despite their lackluster numbers and despite the fact that the dark side had been gaining strength for the advent of Darth Sidious.



Your incompetence has seemingly blossomed over your little break; Palpatine's rise to power had begun, he had just been elected Chancellor and already dominated galactic politics even before.



According to Labyrinth of Evil, the dark side had been gaining strength for two hundred years prior to the events of that particular story, in preparation for the advent of Darth Sidious.



Just did.



Your inability to spell and develop funny material are becoming even more stagnant.

But surely you're used to defeat by now, Nebaris. Nothing new or suprising.

No, it goes: Drew Karpyshyn and Karen Traviss > George Lucas and Nick Gillard > Gilliad Pallalaon > Publius.

Originally posted by Taven
Good Lord you're dense. All you've managed to do is list a bunch of in-order hierarchies, as well as name a few anomalies within the Order and list their accomplishments. For the former, the structure or hierarchy within an Order doesn't speak for the Order as a whole, and for the latter, an anomaly isn't an accurate representative of a sample. You haven't proven a thing for the Order as a whole. Try again.

LOL, Nebaris. Refer to my previous points- the fact that the PT Order had released the greatest amount of top-tier Jedi out of any Order speaks for its capacity as a whole, not only to these people's amazing personal ability, as they were trained by the talented masters of that certain Jedi Order.

I don't even need this, as Gideon had already displayed percisely how Lucas' quote puts their overall combat ability at above your precious Jedi Order. And, by the way, where did you curbstomp him? In your wet dreams?

Originally posted by Taven
Which is simply retarded. The higher numbers in the AoL times would apply to both the Masters and the students. Nothing indicates that the Master-student ratio would have been any different, meaning you have no point. For less care to be given in respect to training and such would require that the ratio between student and master be more in favour to the students for the AoL times in comparison to the PT times. Nothing even hints that as much is the case.

No, the Master-student ratio will probably not be different; however, due to the far lesser amount of Jedi, it's very much probable that they received far better and more extensive training by both the individuals in the Jedi Temple- which include a certain Master Yoda- and by their masters, who likely trained them better and more fully due to the great amount of time that passed, which will probably allow the Order to accumulate more and more knowledge over time.

In addition, the Order was led by Yoda for hundreds of years, so it's unlikely any knowledge would be 'lost', so don't even bring up that point. The only thing the previous Jedi Order have on the PT Order is the fact that they fought Sith more often- which is almost completely irrelevant, because other than two specific Sith, every single Sith in the BoD is a worthless piece of junk, as proven by their Bane's extremely low opinion of them. They focused on being soldiers, not Sith- they knowledge of the Dark Side was immensely limited, and it doesn't help that they were lead by incompetent fools like Lord Kaan.

Originally posted by Taven
Also, in case you missed the point, I was simply pointing out that Sarro was a larger fish in a far larger pond. That he was in such a position among such a higher number of Jedi speaks far more highly for his level of ability, as he would face more competition than others would.

Great. A Jedi Order that was trained to fight incompetent Sith- and prove that he was a 'larger fish', because the four who are up against Bane and Zannah are renowned as not only the end-all of the Jedi Order, but some of the best, and most skilled people in history, something that Sarro was never called.

Originally posted by Taven
There's also the cosmic effect that number of Jedi would have had on the Light side of the Force. As PoD notes, the darkside works best when focused in a small number, and the fact that Kaan's Order numbered in the thousands had been weakening and filtering the darkside. The opposite's the case with the Jedi; the higher the numbers, the stronger the light side of the Force.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Taven
We argue by virtue of what we know, and all that Agen has going for him is amazing technical ability. Sarro has the same, albeit to a lesser degree, but amazing strength, speed, grace, and elegance on top of that, and his reputation would indicate that he was higher up than the three were in his already far more impressive Order. When powered by Battle Meditation, he was capable of outclassing someone as powerful as Zannah (who as I said, would realistically be at a level of ability somewhere between Bane's PoD and Ro2 incarnations).

No, Zannah is ext