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hmmm . . . for me? sometimes.

the overanalysis that takes place on the kmc sometimes DOES take the pure fun out of reading a book. often kmc "finds" problems that might otherwise have gone overlooked, robbing the enjoyment out of particular scenes or stories. people become so concerned with the canonicity of a story, whether continuity is carefully maintained, whether a character is depicted perfectly . . .

sometimes -- not always -- the kmc can steal the fun out of reading a comic, imo. a quick example i raised in another thread was superman v the source-empowered infinityman. that was a GREAT showing for superman, and i very much enjoyed the battle, but i've heard people screaming it was PIS. maybe it was, but i still enjoyed the battle, but having people cry about it and pick it apart lessens it somewhat.

anyone else ever run across a similar problem?

If I thought KMC ruined my enjoyment of comics, I wouldn't post on KMC

I never let it ruin my enjoyment of a comic....but i understand where you are coming from, to me there is no room for the forums when i read a comic,its funny as me and my friend talk about versus matches we say things like.."so and so would win.....but not on KMC" i am a big fan of the roleplaying systems and i have been playing these characters with friends and such for a long time, it just does not factor in....when i am reading a comic

Originally posted by Endless Mike
If I thought KMC ruined my enjoyment of comics, I wouldn't post on KMC

If anything, it has increased my enjoyment of comics.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
If I thought KMC ruined my enjoyment of comics, I wouldn't post on KMC

+

Most of the things people talk about on here are about comics i don't really read so...

Originally posted by llagrok
If anything, it has increased my enjoyment of comics.

Originally posted by starlock
I never let it ruin my enjoyment of a comic....but i understand where you are coming from, to me there is no room for the forums when i read a comic,its funny as me and my friend talk about versus matches we say things like.."so and so would win.....but not on KMC" i am a big fan of the roleplaying systems and i have been playing these characters with friends and such for a long time, it just does not factor in....when i am reading a comic

I agree with all of this, really.

Everyone here should be able to see where Leonidas is coming from. A lot of people, including myself, can come down like a ton of bricks when our favourite characters are being written to anything less than what we normally expect.

But what people say on KMC doesn't really affect me to the degree that it would ruin a comic for me. It's actually quite nice to find people who agree with you on certain things.

Originally posted by llagrok
I agree with all of this, really.

Everyone here should be able to see where Leonidas is coming from. A lot of people, including myself, can come down like a ton of bricks when our favourite characters are being written to anything less than what we normally expect.

But what people say on KMC doesn't really affect me to the degree that it would ruin a comic for me. It's actually quite nice to find people who agree with you on certain things.

QFT

Originally posted by starlock
I never let it ruin my enjoyment of a comic....

Same here. If I were to be influenced by KMC I probably wouldve stopped reading Wolverine comics a long time ago. I enjoyed the Onslaught saga a lot and its one of my favorite storyline ever but by KMC standards is crap. As long as u enjoy a particular comic/character/event/feat f**k what everyone thinks.

As others have said, if KMC even slightly decreased my enjoyment of comic books, I would cease posting immediately.

KMC is what got me back into comics.

Originally posted by Rorschach
KMC is what got me back into comics.

me too.

and grok and starlock summed things up perfectly, i think.

and geez . . . i said SOMETIMES . . .






























in general, yes, you are all correct -- kmc usually EHANCES the experience. but there are times i find things that bug me that i would have previously ignored. long ago i started a thread about how kmc enhanced reading comics (can't recall the title or find the link though -- it was when i first became a member). so i thought i would balance things out.

some good thoughts though, and sort of cool to see people rally to kmc's defense.

Meh. I can see both sides.

Take Civil War for example. I think it's a great comic with decent art and not a bad read.

Then on KMC you have posters threatening to drop Marvel because of it.

Yeesh.

Same with the vs. forum... after I see people list character A for speedblitzing their match 10/10 times, now and then you wonder when actually reading their comics "Where's the speedblitz?".

At the same time though, it's not going to ruin comics for me. Far from. KMC often directs me towards what the best comics are, and helps me avoid stuff that I don't really want to read.

But, I feel the tinge of "ugh" at some of the comic related e-drama that occasionally can affect reading the comic in question.

srug

KMC for me is a neutral zone for comic book fans.

If you go to DC message boards there is ton of bias. Same when you got to the Marvel Message boards...tons of Hulk and Wolverine fanboys. CBR still decent...Superherochat...waste of time.

This site ruining my enjoyment of comics ? Not even close. Quite the opposite.

at the risk of sounding a little grandiose and melo dramatic theres maybe like a small handful of ppl on this board who i actually take seriously anyway....so it doesnt matter, i too would have stopped reading wolverine, or developed a hatred for superman, or give Doom more respect than he deserves if anyone's critque and over analysis got to me

Originally posted by leonidas
hmmm . . . for me? sometimes.

the overanalysis that takes place on the kmc sometimes DOES take the pure fun out of reading a book. often kmc "finds" problems that might otherwise have gone overlooked, robbing the enjoyment out of particular scenes or stories. people become so concerned with the canonicity of a story, whether continuity is carefully maintained, whether a character is depicted perfectly . . .

sometimes -- not always -- the kmc can steal the fun out of reading a comic, imo. a quick example i raised in another thread was superman v the source-empowered infinityman. that was a GREAT showing for superman, and i very much enjoyed the battle, but i've heard people screaming it was PIS. maybe it was, but i still enjoyed the battle, but having people cry about it and pick it apart lessens it somewhat.

anyone else ever run across a similar problem?

i'd have to care what other people think to have my enjoyment ruined, right?

nah, i read comics regardless...

KMC got me back into comics as well...I find, generally speaking, that these forums enhance my reading experience and knowledge of characters and their feats.

That being said, there exists a small percentage of members (I'm looking at you, zealously irrational Hulk, Juggernaut, and Wolverine fanboys) whose posts do annoy me...but I generally just try to ignore them...in fact, I often find them amusing, if nothing else.

I love this site. I've gained new insight into many characters and I love MOST of the debates that go on here.

I considered debating comics and reading them to be completely different. Disenchantment with debating hasn't affected my enjoyment of reading comics at all.

Originally posted by Raoul
i'd have to care what other people think to have my enjoyment ruined, right?

nah, i read comics regardless...

My sentiments exactly.

A big issue among certain sects of KMC is that posters refuse to accept the fact that these characters aren't static. Everything in a comic, high end feats to "jobbing", is plot driven and fluid. Everything in a comic is "PIS". It's the entire premise of the genre. The line between being a fan and zealotry gets crossed too often. Some people treat these stories as gospel and defend their favorite character's standing like it were some divine purpose, and their detractors do the same with in some cases genuine disdain and hatred, all the while losing sight of the fact that in the end, it's just some story some guy made up and scribbled on a piece of paper. It's good to just take a step back and enjoy comics for what they are without dissecting the narrative down to it's base in the futile act of proving the superiority or inferiority of your favorite fairy tale character.

If I admit that it has ruined comics or characters for me (it has) I can't only dwell on the negative and have to mention the far more numerous times when KMC has enhanced my comic reading experience, either by providing insightful discussion on a topic or by making me aware of a comic that I eventually enjoyed.

The good outweighs the bad. But yeah, it happens both ways.

It also helps to avoid teh vs. forum. Place generally drains my soul...not for comics, just in general...and I much prefer this forum and the respect forum.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Meh. I can see both sides.

Take Civil War for example. I think it's a great comic with decent art and not a bad read.

Then on KMC you have posters threatening to drop Marvel because of it.

Yeesh.

Same with the vs. forum... after I see people list character A for speedblitzing their match 10/10 times, now and then you wonder when actually reading their comics "Where's the speedblitz?".

At the same time though, it's not going to ruin comics for me. Far from. KMC often directs me towards what the best comics are, and helps me avoid stuff that I don't really want to read.

But, I feel the tinge of "ugh" at some of the comic related e-drama that occasionally can affect reading the comic in question.

srug cosign

i think what leo is saying is that the constant cock fighting we do to characters in the vs forum cheapens them somehow.

for example, for me, as a kid reading silver surfer was a huge step up from superman on a literary standpoint, to me it just had more substance. the transition was never about who was stronger or any of that shallow crap, just a better casual read. now that hobby got sort of perverted into a chore since those old boxes of comics are a now evidence.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmmm . . . for me? sometimes.

the overanalysis that takes place on the kmc sometimes DOES take the pure fun out of reading a book. often kmc "finds" problems that might otherwise have gone overlooked, robbing the enjoyment out of particular scenes or stories. people become so concerned with the canonicity of a story, whether continuity is carefully maintained, whether a character is depicted perfectly . . .

sometimes -- not always -- the kmc can steal the fun out of reading a comic, imo. a quick example i raised in another thread was superman v the source-empowered infinityman. that was a GREAT showing for superman, and i very much enjoyed the battle, but i've heard people screaming it was PIS. maybe it was, but i still enjoyed the battle, but having people cry about it and pick it apart lessens it somewhat.

anyone else ever run across a similar problem?
Can't say that I do. I actually do these things on my own.

Comic companies are ruining my enjoyment of comics.

Also, some writers and artists. disgust

Originally posted by leonidas
hmmm . . . for me? sometimes.

the overanalysis that takes place on the kmc sometimes DOES take the pure fun out of reading a book. often kmc "finds" problems that might otherwise have gone overlooked, robbing the enjoyment out of particular scenes or stories. people become so concerned with the canonicity of a story, whether continuity is carefully maintained, whether a character is depicted perfectly . . .

sometimes -- not always -- the kmc can steal the fun out of reading a comic, imo. a quick example i raised in another thread was superman v the source-empowered infinityman. that was a GREAT showing for superman, and i very much enjoyed the battle, but i've heard people screaming it was PIS. maybe it was, but i still enjoyed the battle, but having people cry about it and pick it apart lessens it somewhat.

anyone else ever run across a similar problem? People trying to use real science vs comic book science.

People being over critical of feats, showings, arcs, etc.

People low balling feats for a particular character/company.

Idiot fanboys.

I still won't let the dunderheads ruin comics for me.

I've read a comic book for over thirty years

Shitty writing does more to ruin comics for me than anybody on a forum could ever do...

The forums are the opportunity to express opinions. The worst that can happen with that is if someone derides you for having a different opinion and if that's the case it is they who should feel bad.

Otherwise, KMC is awesome. Some of you guys are very fortunate to be in communities where you know lots of people who read comics. I'm not one of them. KMC offers a great outlet for discussion for me.

Originally posted by Raoul
Shitty writing does more to ruin comics for me than anybody on a forum could ever do...
I take that as a personal insult.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
I take that as a personal insult.

are you: Dwayne McDuffie/Matt Fraction/Bendis?

If so, you should do.

Originally posted by guy222
I've read a comic book for over thirty years

Just a comic book, meaning one?

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
I take that as a personal insult.

Bad writer?


Originally posted by Raoul
are you: Dwayne McDuffie/Matt Fraction/Bendis?

If so, you should do.

McDuffie? schmoll

Originally posted by The Scribe
Just a comic book, meaning one?



Bad writer?




McDuffie? schmoll

his JLA sucks.

Originally posted by Raoul
his JLA sucks.

You're in luck. I just found this review.

I bought JLA #33 yesterday.




JLA #33 review

KMC did ruin Storm for me.

But otherwise, it's a good thing. Most of my reading is enhanced by KMC, and many times is simply unaffected by KMC...I enjoy it the same as I would otherwise.

Also, guys. Just give up on JLA. JSA >>>>> JLA, even with the new Johns-less team.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Everything in a comic, high end feats to "jobbing", is plot driven and fluid.

An excellent point, and one that I have to often make. The story drives comics, not keeping in line with power levels. The latter conforms to the former, not vice-versa.

Originally posted by Badabing
People trying to use real science vs comic book science.

People being over critical of feats, showings, arcs, etc.
i know this is directed at me , it has to be

comic book science (lol) isn't separate from real science, it's just a perversion/disregard of real science somewhat, even more so than "mainstream" science fiction is loosely based on theoretical science.

the thing is though that to actually be in awe of the feat in question, there has to be some sort of basis for that feat to be scrutinized by, other wise it means absolutely nothing and shouldn't be mentioned in the first place.

Originally posted by Raoul
are you: Dwayne McDuffie/Matt Fraction/Bendis?

If so, you should do.
Originally posted by The Scribe
Bad writer?
No, that I can't ruin his comic experience more than a bad writer.

Originally posted by The Scribe
You're in luck. I just found this review.

I bought JLA #33 yesterday.




JLA #33 review

mcduffie would blame editorial mandate for his departure, and maybe it is a large part of it, but that doesn't change the poor quality of his writing.

being told "we need ____________ to happen in this issue" is no excuse to produce glorified toilet paper.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
No, that I can't ruin his comic experience more than a bad writer.

hmm

People in forums ruin characters but not comics.

i must admit i do sometimes find it rather frustrating to present a feat or scene from a comic only to have it unmercilessly and skeptically picked apart. sometimes posters can be extremely "nitpicky" with them........which is not entirely unexpected if they are in opposition to you're point of view

Forums don't ruin comics or characters.

What they CAN do, and have done for me, is ruin my perception of comic book fans nowadays.

Everyone thinks that because you have a thread "establishing" tiers of power, that this is the official standing, that they have some kind of inside knowledge and superiority.

Most notably when people got pissed off at Hulk's power level in World War Hulk. I didn't give a crap, not because I like Hulk, but because his moniker has always been "Strongest one there is.", which is precisely what World War Hulk showed. If your idea of a "realistic" Hulk depiction is him being challenged by people who seriously can't challenge him, simply because you dislike Hulk, then you're a f*cking idiot. Hulk SHOULD be dealing with groups like say, X-Men, with no trouble. That's precisely how those fights should be happening, but haven't been.

This forum has gone from one extreme to another. When I used to frequent this place, back in 2004, when I was one of its main respected members (Along with Never, Arachnoid Freak, Victor Von Doom and others), it was a balance of technical analysis and acceptance of fiction.

It then descended into any thread being acceptable. There was a Hulk Vs Rogue thread, a Storm Vs Dr. Doom thread etc. These threads continued because idiots wouldn't accept that some fights are open and shut cases. We had arguments like, "If Storm created a whirlwind in Dr. Doom's heart, he'd die.", and other over-reaching bullshit arguments. Instead of "She'd get her ass whooped.", and letting that be that, and moving onto productive discussions. I COULD beat Real Madrid at football...if I beat all their players and put the ball into the net more times.

Yeah, that's a way I could do it...but would it ever happen? No. So move on.

Now it's, in my opinion, the exact opposite. Everything is technical, and it's technically analysed with too much blanket. Though I admit that it's good how each member is allowed to make their case as to why someone should be in one tier or the other.

My whole issue with forums ruining things is just that. Not comics, not characters, but my opinion of people who read them. You're getting too far into it.

I understand that some writers contradict others, and in judging whether one guy could beat another, you have to consider these things. However, it seems dumb to me that everyone goes on about "bad writing" or P.I.S. or whatever.

Why can't you just take it for what it is? It's there, on the panel. Don't get TOO caught up arguing passionately about what MIGHT be IF something had continued or done differently, because it hasn't been. Argue about what's there.

It happened to me recently here. People said "IF the Deadpool/Iron Fist fight in Cable & Deadpool #21 had continued, Iron Fist would have won.". I don't care what basis you have, that's speculation. Judge by what's there, on panel. An even fight.

If a writer next decides to have Iron Fist buttf*cking Deadpool, then I'd be miffed, but accept it. Just like if Deadpool did the same, an Iron Fist fan would be miffed, but have to accept it? What choice have you got, but to accept it. These are the people writing the stories. We can dislike the most bogus character butchery, but the fact is that if it's canon and in print, we can't deny it. These are not YOUR characters.

YOU have done nothing for them. When you are hired to write, you can have your say. Until then, stop bitching at people who have had way more involvement with comics than you ever will. It's like armchair football fans who act like they know better than the manager.

Squirrel Girl is a prime example, with all her victories. I think that is the writers' way of saying; "It happened, deal.".

So a lot more people here have to learn where to aim their distaste for things, and learn that it doesn't change things. That's what gets tainted for me on these forums.

Also, I get the impression that writers themselves could come in here and say "No, you're wrong.", and some of you would still argue. Some of you have such an over-inflated sense of knowledge and entitlement, that it is shocking.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What they CAN do, and have done for me, is ruin my perception of comic book fans nowadays.

Yes, this can happen.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Everyone thinks that because you have a thread "establishing" tiers of power, that this is the official standing, that they have some kind of inside knowledge and superiority.

Everyone? Gross generalization. Besides, the tiers thread is a tool, not a declaration of absolute fact. And it actually helps a lot with limiting the number of curbstomp threads that you have a problem with later in your post.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Most notably when people got pissed off at Hulk's power level in World War Hulk. I didn't give a crap, not because I like Hulk, but because his moniker has always been "Strongest one there is.", which is precisely what World War Hulk showed. If your idea of a "realistic" Hulk depiction is him being challenged by people who seriously can't challenge him, simply because you dislike Hulk, then you're a f*cking idiot. Hulk SHOULD be dealing with groups like say, X-Men, with no trouble. That's precisely how those fights should be happening, but haven't been.

So a few whiny fans (or anti-fans) ruined the event for you? That happens with every character, every event. To paint it as the majority, however, is again a mischaracterization of the forums.

Also, watch the language.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It then descended into any thread being acceptable. There was a Hulk Vs Rogue thread, a Storm Vs Dr. Doom thread etc. These threads continued because idiots wouldn't accept that some fights are open and shut cases. We had arguments like, "If Storm created a whirlwind in Dr. Doom's heart, he'd die.", and other over-reaching bullshit arguments. Instead of "She'd get her ass whooped.", and letting that be that, and moving onto productive discussions. I COULD beat Real Madrid at football...if I beat all their players and put the ball into the net more times.

Usually such threads are just due to a lack of knowledge. More people on the forums, which we now have, will always equal more lopsided threads because of it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Now it's, in my opinion, the exact opposite. Everything is technical, and it's technically analysed with too much blanket. Though I admit that it's good how each member is allowed to make their case as to why someone should be in one tier or the other.

Agreed. Overanalysis kills a lot of discussions, and often isn't relevant to comics.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I understand that some writers contradict others, and in judging whether one guy could beat another, you have to consider these things. However, it seems dumb to me that everyone goes on about "bad writing" or P.I.S. or whatever.

Agreed. Power levels cater to the story, not vice-versa. Too much emphasis is placed on power levels, however, instead of reading the comics as they're intended: as stories.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It happened to me recently here. People said "IF the Deadpool/Iron Fist fight in Cable & Deadpool #21 had continued, Iron Fist would have won.". I don't care what basis you have, that's speculation. Judge by what's there, on panel. An even fight.

Logical inferences can be made based on a character's body of work. I'm not familiar with this particular discussion, so you may be correct about it, but determining a winner even after a "stalemate" in a comic is very possible.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
YOU have done nothing for them. When you are hired to write, you can have your say. Until then, stop bitching at people who have had way more involvement with comics than you ever will. It's like armchair football fans who act like they know better than the manager.

I disagree here. Intelligent fans can have valid complaints about a writer, character, or story. The fact that they are in the industry and we aren't doesn't invalidate our opinions, especially since we keep the industry going with our fandom.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Squirrel Girl is a prime example, with all her victories. I think that is the writers' way of saying; "It happened, deal.".

She's hilarious. And yes, it's funny when people get upset over her.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Also, I get the impression that writers themselves could come in here and say "No, you're wrong.", and some of you would still argue. Some of you have such an over-inflated sense of knowledge and entitlement, that it is shocking.

I'd be one of them, though I'd argue respectfully. And I'd feel far less ashamed of debating a writer than I would if I just accepted the edict from some "higher authority" as though it were infallible.

...

You have some good points, but I feel like you're allowing your perception to be tainted by too few people. We're a large comic community, and our average demographic is probably about age 14-19, despite several older members. As such, you'll get a large amount of idiocy. But, as with your advice to some fans, I'd suggest that you simply deal with it. There's rational debate on the forums that isn't as mindless as your caricature of it. You're not the first to notice this, but the trick is always being able to sift through the junk to find the interesting discussion. It still exists.

But yeah, teenagers can be stupid. Very stupid. Or people in general, for that matter.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Everyone thinks that because you have a thread "establishing" tiers of power, that this is the official standing, that they have some kind of inside knowledge and superiority.

Not me. I know the tier thread is off and no one ranked the characters I suggested no too long ago. disgust



I like War World Hulk. I didn't care for the Dr. Strange part.

World War Hulk should be on his own island or country like Dr Doom.
With his Warbound.



I don't like it when continuity is messed with. disgust

Regarding the part where I do not feel fans have the credibility to tell writers they are wrong, only to disagree with the choices made:

See what happened when they made the film adaptation of Hannibal. Jodie Foster didn't sign on to play Clarice because she felt Clarice wouldn't have acted as she did. She...would have, because Thomas Harris created her and he ultimately decides precisely what she is and what she does.

Whilst a writer is not really a creator, they've been given more authority over a character. That said, you can't hold up one example as truer than another, because by that token it's all a subjective take on the character.

And no, Digi, I loved the event of World War Hulk. It was the depiction of Hulk that he's deserved for years.

As for language, I said "f*cking", I doubt anybody here is scarred for life.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As for language, I said "f*cking", I doubt anybody here is scarred for life.

It's the context. You were calling people idiots, and prefacing it with the word. Swearing, in and of itself, isn't reprehensible, and is a normal part of most peoples' vocabulary that frequent the forums. But there's a big difference between, say, "My life is f-ing nuts right now!" and "You're a f-ing idiot!" One is overtly insulting, derogatory, etc. and a breach of forum rules. The other is just an exclamation.

So like I said, watch your language. Perhaps 'watch your tone' would've been more appropriate, but would be splitting hairs at that point.

Originally posted by Digi
a breach of forum rules.


I read the rules and all cursing is against the forum rules.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Regarding the part where I do not feel fans have the credibility to tell writers they are wrong, only to disagree with the choices made:

See what happened when they made the film adaptation of Hannibal. Jodie Foster didn't sign on to play Clarice because she felt Clarice wouldn't have acted as she did. She...would have, because Thomas Harris created her and he ultimately decides precisely what she is and what she does.

Awful analogy.

Originally posted by Darth Vicious
Same here. If I were to be influenced by KMC I probably wouldve stopped reading Wolverine comics a long time ago. I enjoyed the Onslaught saga a lot and its one of my favorite storyline ever but by KMC standards is crap. As long as u enjoy a particular comic/character/event/feat f**k what everyone thinks.
cosigned

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Awful analogy.

Go on.

-AC

I enjoy comics regardless, I just know comics have their things that don't apply to versus matches, it's that simple. Why people much older don't get that there's a difference in relaxing and reading a story and debating on a forum is beyond me. You have to separate the two.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmmm . . . for me? sometimes.

the overanalysis that takes place on the kmc sometimes DOES take the pure fun out of reading a book. often kmc "finds" problems that might otherwise have gone overlooked, robbing the enjoyment out of particular scenes or stories. people become so concerned with the canonicity of a story, whether continuity is carefully maintained, whether a character is depicted perfectly . . .

sometimes -- not always -- the kmc can steal the fun out of reading a comic, imo. a quick example i raised in another thread was superman v the source-empowered infinityman. that was a GREAT showing for superman, and i very much enjoyed the battle, but i've heard people screaming it was PIS. maybe it was, but i still enjoyed the battle, but having people cry about it and pick it apart lessens it somewhat.

anyone else ever run across a similar problem?

Don't take this place too serious. Just keep reading your books , enjoy yourself, and I'm sure you can make up your own conclusions. See , fans will always flock to a place like this and back up their character regardless . And that takes away from the versus forum IMO.

I'll quote something Digi said about another sight. '' Just take it all in a grain of salt".

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Also, I get the impression that writers themselves could come in here and say "No, you're wrong.", and some of you would still argue. Some of you have such an over-inflated sense of knowledge and entitlement, that it is shocking. Clearly the answer to all the forum's problems is to accept that comic book writers are omniscient and that disagreeing with portrayal of a character is blasphemy.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Whilst a writer is not really a creator, they've been given more authority over a character. That said, you can't hold up one example as truer than another, because by that token it's all a subjective take on the character.
You can cite certain portrayals of characters as inconsistent and therefore "untrue to the character" based on the majority of character showings.

Not saying that these citings would be correct, but to accurately assess that a writer has miswritten a character is not impossible.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Clearly the answer to all the forum's problems is to accept that comic book writers are omniscient and that disagreeing with portrayal of a character is blasphemy.

Why is that clearly the answer? I never suggested such a thing or anything close to it. I actually said near enough the opposite.

"I do not feel fans have the credibility to tell writers they are wrong, only to disagree with the choices made.".

Stop being a hyperbolic idiot.

-AC

Originally posted by It's Faceman
Don't take this place too serious.

no worries there my friend . . .

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why is that clearly the answer? I never suggested such a thing or anything close to it. I actually said near enough the opposite.



"I do not feel fans have the credibility to tell writers they are wrong, only to disagree with the choices made.".

Generally, if I disagree with a choice that a writer made, I believe they made the wrong choice.

So it seems that you're simply splitting hairs between whether we tell them that we disagree or whether we simply verbalize our disagreements to others.

Clearly my hyperbolic idiocy is interfering with my reading comprehension here, otherwise I would recognize the sentiment of "You can't say they're wrong, you can only disagree" as to be such a fine distinction that arguing the difference is idiocy in itself.

Anyways, there's very little that makes a fan a less credible source than the writer. Fans know how a character typically reacts in certain situations, and they know how a character should be portrayed.

The writer has the authority to make a character dance however they please. Doesn't mean that it's the right choice to make, but it is there.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Generally, if I disagree with a choice that a writer made, I believe they made the wrong choice.

Fine, as I said. What I don't believe you have the right to do is ignore the choice they HAVE put into canonical print and disregard it because you dislike it. It's fact and canon at that point, you do not have greater authority over the lore.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
So it seems that you're simply splitting hairs between whether we tell them that we disagree or whether we simply verbalize our disagreements to others.

That's not what I'm saying, you don't understand my above point.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Clearly my hyperbolic idiocy is interfering with my reading comprehension here, otherwise I would recognize the sentiment of "You can't say they're wrong, you can only disagree" as to be such a fine distinction that arguing the difference is idiocy in itself.

You're the one who said I feel writers are omniscient and to disagree is blasphemy. Not me.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Anyways, there's very little that makes a fan a less credible source than the writer. Fans know how a character typically reacts in certain situations, and they know how a character should be portrayed.

No, they do not. They know the how other writers feel a character should act, or react. The character has no personality or traits other than that written for them.

Just like football managers, there's a reason they are managing and I am not, despite how much I love and know about football. There's a reason people are writing for Marvel and you're not.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
The writer has the authority to make a character dance however they please. Doesn't mean that it's the right choice to make, but it is there.

It's the right choice subjectively or wrong choice subjectively. My issue is with non-acceptance.

-AC

If I may I'm more inclined to say the writers are chosen primarily for their writing talent, or success as a writer. I'm sure they know about characters, but I don't believe they have to be a walking encyclopedia of them either. There may be some hardcore, oldschool fans that know more about a particular character than a writer, but to say something that is canon isn't canon or doesn't make any difference (regardless if it isn't quite consistent) won't override the fact that it is there, even if we choose not to use it here.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


Fine, as I said. What I don't believe you have the right to do is ignore the choice they HAVE put into canonical print and disregard it because you dislike it. It's fact and canon at that point, you do not have greater authority over the lore.

Ignore and disregard? No, we can't. Believe a writer is wrong, and tell him/her so if they were to come on KMC? Yes, we can.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, they do not. They know the how other writers feel a character should act, or react. The character has no personality or traits other than that written for them.
In order for characters to be properly written, they need some consistency with previous writing, or at least an appropriate, sensible explanation for any change.

Otherwise they are simply miswritten. It was therefore the wrong way to write them.

Writers are not infallible, and they can depict a character improperly. Writers have, in the past, mentioned afterwards that they had "no idea how to write ."


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Just like football managers, there's a reason they are managing and I am not, despite how much I love and know about football. There's a reason people are writing for Marvel and you're not.
Writing skill is not the only reason that they write for Marvel. Furthermore, you can have a fantastic story but have a certain character become a plot tool and be miswritten. The fact that they are skilled writers doesn't qualify them as mistake-less.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's the right choice subjectively or wrong choice subjectively. My issue is with non-acceptance.
Fair enough. I can agree that simply ignoring events because you don't like them is idiocy.

My issue was with "Also, I get the impression that writers themselves could come in here and say "No, you're wrong.", and some of you would still argue. ".

Writers can make wrong choices.

I don't recall AC ever being one of the main respected members of this forum.

I think the internet has ruined comics for me but it's really my fault for letting that happen. I mean solicits that are months in advance, previews...heck now days I find myself skipping the first 7 pages of a comic since I already read them in a preview. Not to mention speculation threads, when you read 200 posts about a comic and everyone is giving their two cents one of those users are bound to be on the right track.
Another example is Greg Lands art. I would never had known that Land traces porn if it wasn't for the internet. In fact I don't think I'd keep seeing famous people in compromising positions in a Land issue if it wasn't for the internet.

I started being less active on forums and I find myself liking Matt Fractions UXM run a lot more then I did at the beginning of the year.

The one thing that the internet has done for me is broaden my comic book list.

Swanky,

Should get that memory looked at.

Myself, Never, Arachnoid Freak and a few others were just that around the Summer of '04, earlier maybe.

It's notably because from the moment I joined I took centre stage in what was one of (Possibly IS THE biggest) the biggest Vs Forum debates ever (Back when there was just two comics forums).

Unless you're confusing being respected with being liked, because only a few really liked me. I was here before Tron, Digi etc.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Fair enough. I can agree that simply ignoring events because you don't like them is idiocy.

My issue was with "Also, I get the impression that writers themselves could come in here and say "No, you're wrong.", and some of you would still argue. ".

Writers can make wrong choices.

Then what's the problem? We essentially agree.

-AC

i think the problem stems from the definition of "wrong". a writer who writes a character in such a way that said character acts differently than his most consistent depictions show him acting, MAY be viewed as "wrong" in the eyes of many readers. that's where the notion of PIS stems from.

i THINK what AC is trying to get at is the fact that it really is NOT "wrong", it's simply the way THAT WRITER VIEWS THAT CHARACTER. and regardless of whether we as readers believe it to be wrong is irrelevent.

does writing someone in a way that is inconsistent with the majority of their showings constitute "wrongness?"

i would guess it would depend on the severity of the change in the character. i think most of the time writers stay true to the IDEA of the character, though the details of that character may be changed. there are times in daredevil's history where he is portrayed as my FAVOURITE character, hercules likewise. but their treatment at the hands of certain writers have made them LESS than my favourites. do i think those times they have been portrayed "wrongly?"

no. they just weren't portrayed the way i liked them BEST. the idea that a writer has really "screwed up" and hence the entirety of an arc, or the depiction of a character should be discounted or thrust aside and labelled taboo or "PIS" is something i really have no stomach for and does smack of fan arrogance. using the way a character has been most consistently portrayed is--imo--the best way to debate a character. but in order to do that, you need to have a sense of history of the character. that becomes a problem at times.

then of course, there is the pure sadistic pleasure i gain at times in simply arguing the minutiae . . .

I like comic book forums because they might mention something about a book I am reading that I might've missed!

PLUS they give me a different perspective on the story sometimes.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Swanky,

Should get that memory looked at.

Myself, Never, Arachnoid Freak and a few others were just that around the Summer of '04, earlier maybe.

It's notably because from the moment I joined I took centre stage in what was one of (Possibly IS THE biggest) the biggest Vs Forum debates ever (Back when there was just two comics forums).

Unless you're confusing being respected with being liked, because only a few really liked me. I was here before Tron, Digi etc.
I'm not.

I don't know, maybe it depends on who you ask, or what you consider being "respected" on the comic book versus forum.

Are you talking about the Hulk vs Juggernaut debate?

Yeah.

Pretty much picked up around the time I arrived, and others like Never got involved.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah.

Pretty much picked up around the time I arrived, and others like Never got involved.

-AC

off-topic, but hey, it's my thread.

anyway, . . . who'd you say won in that hulk/juggs thread?

I remember being adamant of Juggernaut's mystic nature and long life giving him an advantage. And now I really don't care either way.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
I remember being adamant of Juggernaut's mystic nature and long life giving him an advantage. And now I really don't care either way.

geez, where's the old spark debbie downer . . .?

heh

fact of life swank--with age comes ambivalence.

Originally posted by leonidas
geez, where's the old spark debbie downer . . .?

heh

fact of life swank--with age comes ambivalence.

Dude, you're 15, not 50.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Dude, you're 15, not 50.

15, right . . .

14?

Originally posted by Raoul
14?

oh, i think i've been misunderstanding. you guys are referring to MATURITY level, not chronological age, right . . .

heh

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Dude, you're 15, not 50. I thought he was in his mid 30's or so. I thought it was in his profile, but if that is too personal, my bad.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I thought he was in his mid 30's or so. I thought it was in his profile, but if that is too personal, my bad.

quiet you! i think it's my boyish charm that has him confused. let's not ruin a good thing shall we?

Hey, I'm 14 so I understand.

I'm 1.
Originally posted by leonidas
geez, where's the old spark debbie downer . . .?

heh

fact of life swank--with age comes ambivalence.
Kids and their Saturday Night Theater references!

I still pop into threads occasionally but where's it going to get me? Plus a lot of the match ups are dumb. Also, every time a character related to Wolverine is mentioned friggin' Battlehammer has to show up and tell us how that person's blood was replaced with snakes or something so he wasn't at his best.

Make some more threads Alvis

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
I'm 1.

Kids and their Saturday Night Theater references!

I still pop into threads occasionally but where's it going to get me? Plus a lot of the match ups are dumb. Also, every time a character related to Wolverine is mentioned friggin' Battlehammer has to show up and tell us how that person's blood was replaced with snakes or something so he wasn't at his best.

So THAT is his problem.

Thanks for the heads up, now I know why he was acting like such a complete tool.

-AC

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
I'm 1.

Kids and their Saturday Night Theater references!

I still pop into threads occasionally but where's it going to get me? Plus a lot of the match ups are dumb. Also, every time a character related to Wolverine is mentioned friggin' Battlehammer has to show up and tell us how that person's blood was replaced with snakes or something so he wasn't at his best.

where's it gonna get you?? what do you mean? look at the rest of us! all rich. all unmitigated successes. everyone here getting all the chicks and no one ever thinks you're a nerd . . .







































ps--off-topic--you got the best sig ever!

I would say KMC has enhanced my enjoyment of comics not only from people recommending incredible pieces of literature but in that the information and analysis that occasionally shows up here. Stories aside I find comics fascinating as works of collaborative fiction, providing cultural breakdown by era and a microcosm of an entire artistic form that dates back less than 100 years in its modern style.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I would say KMC has enhanced my enjoyment of comics not only from people recommending incredible pieces of literature but in that the information and analysis that occasionally shows up here. Stories aside I find comics fascinating as works of collaborative fiction, providing cultural breakdown by era and a microcosm of an entire artistic form that dates back less than 100 years in its modern style.

yep.











































shock

can't believe you posted in the same thread as bats and val . . .

heh

ps--good post, really.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Make some more threads Alvis
My comic book knowledge has atrophied and I've become lazy. I have "stacks" of comics here but I haven't gotten around to reading them.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So THAT is his problem.

Thanks for the heads up, now I know why he was acting like such a complete tool.

-AC
I can't go into any street level threads without turning into Louis CK. It's probably not even his fault but more the Wolverine writers for coming up with the dumbest things I've ever heard but he's always there to repeat them.

Originally posted by leonidas
where's it gonna get you?? what do you mean? look at the rest of us! all rich. all unmitigated successes. everyone here getting all the chicks and no one ever thinks you're a nerd . . .

I don't mean like that. It's just not as fun. I suppose it didn't help that the last 2 years I was doin' college stuff.


Thanks. It was supposed to be part of a story but I haven't updated it in forever.

Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
Thanks. It was supposed to be part of a story but I haven't updated it in forever.

well . . . get with it man! times a-wastin'!