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who wins?

wolverine, duh

vulfawein triumphs

wolverine

Lady Shiva needs a respect thread... where are all the Batman-related fanboys?!

A thread involving Wolverine made by Battlehammer will always be spite. Thats law.

Well Lady Shiva would certainly hold her own for a while. But its inevitably true for "normal" humans without hf to lose to Wolvie with his god-like hf.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
Well Lady Shiva would certainly hold her own for a while. But its inevitably true for "normal" humans without hf to lose to Wolvie with his god-like hf.

Him being stronger, faster and more skilled doesn't help either.

Originally posted by Starscream M
wolverine, duh

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Him being stronger, faster and more skilled doesn't help either. he's stronger and maybe a hair faster, but certainly nowhere near as skilled as Shiva

Originally posted by Starscream M
he's stronger and maybe a hair faster, but certainly nowhere near as skilled as Shiva

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
the woman who helped batman regain his form is certainly more skilled than Wolverine, and please don't spew that 'he's a master of all fighting forms' nonsense, cuz as far as I'm concerned, Logan only uses one form....the charging recklessly at his opponent with claws out approach...and it works for him because of his insane HF, otherwise, he'd long be dead

Originally posted by Starscream M
the woman who helped batman regain his form is certainly more skilled than Wolverine, and please don't spew that 'he's a master of all fighting forms' nonsense, cuz as far as I'm concerned, Logan only uses one form....the charging recklessly at his opponent with claws out approach...and it works for him because of his insane HF, otherwise, he'd long be dead

And Wolverine's beaten the century (Milena?) old Angle of Death about a million times. Hell, he fought Lazaer and a clone of himself and won despite missing part of his soul.

He's stomped Chi into the ground (this alone is more impressive then anything Shiva has ever done)

Had Junzo (a guy who one shotted IF) running from him and using all his elemental powers to keep Wolverine at bay.

Gotten DD in a full nelson in three panels.

One shotted Crossbones.

Briefly stalemated Stick. Hell, Stick even praises Wolverine's abilities and he isn't exactly mister compliment.

Beaten Zartan while severally weakened from poison.

Consistently embarrassed the Silver Samurai.

Defeated the 10 reanimated corpses of the Japanese Deadliest Samurai.

And even though he was weaken and missing part of his soul he stomped Shingen into the ground the last time they fought.

He's even gotten the better of Ogun.

You just wouldn't know a good fighter if he smacked you up your thick skull.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And Wolverine's beaten the century (Milena?) old Angle of Death about a million times. Hell, he fought Lazaer and a clone of himself and won despite missing part of his soul.

He's stomped Chi into the ground (this alone is more impressive then anything Shiva has ever done)

Had Junzo (a guy who one shotted IF) running from him and using all his elemental powers to keep Wolverine at bay.

Gotten DD in a full nelson in three panels.

One shotted Crossbones.

Briefly stalemated Stick. Hell, Stick even praises Wolverine's abilities and he isn't exactly mister compliment.

Beaten Zartan while severally weakened from poison.

Consistently embarrassed the Silver Samurai.

Defeated the 10 reanimated corpses of the Japanese Deadliest Samurai.

And even though he was weaken and missing part of his soul he stomped Shingen into the ground the last time they fought.

He's even gotten the better of Ogun.

You just wouldn't know a good fighter if he smacked you up your thick skull.

and all that proves what?

that Logan's claws and adamantium skeleton and insane HF are tremendous clutches.

For god's sake, give my adamantium skeleton, and razor sharp claws, and a godlike HF, and I could take most of those guys down as well.

It certainly doesn't prove that he is anywhere superior in SKILL to lady shiva.

and I'm not thickheaded, you're just delusional.

Originally posted by Starscream M
and all that proves what?

that Logan's claws and adamantium skeleton and insane HF are tremendous clutches.

For god's sake, give my adamantium skeleton, and razor sharp claws, and a godlike HF, and I could take most of those guys down as well.

It certainly doesn't prove that he is anywhere superior in SKILL to lady shiva.

and I'm not thickheaded, you're just delusional.

He barely took any hits in most of those fights. That's why I listed them.

Logan 7/10

Originally posted by Starscream M
he's stronger and maybe a hair faster, but certainly nowhere near as skilled as Shiva

I agree with this also.

Originally posted by Starscream M
and all that proves what?

that Logan's claws and adamantium skeleton and insane HF are tremendous clutches.

For god's sake, give my adamantium skeleton, and razor sharp claws, and a godlike HF, and I could take most of those guys down as well.

It certainly doesn't prove that he is anywhere superior in SKILL to lady shiva.

and I'm not thickheaded, you're just delusional.

The list doesnt even provr that hes neccesarily better than Lady shiva but im not even going to bother.

For starters Stick wasnt even really trying to hurt Wolverine.

When Wolverine last fought Shingen he stll had a HF and he got wounded in the eye no HF and he would have probably dropped. Hell Shingen doesnt have any enhancements and without Wolverine HF and bones Shingen would have beaten both times they fought.

Getting DD in a full-nelson doesnt prove that he can beat DD, Punisher has got out of all of DDs nelsons cant see why DD cant get out of Wolverines...anyway DD got distracted when he found out that the girl Wolverine was after was Typhoid Mary


etc.

Considering that Wolverine regenerated from the bones, I do not see how Lady Shiva can actually kill him.

Wolverine 7/10

Wolverine wins because of his physical stats and HF. I'm not saying he is less skilled than Shiva, nor am I saying she is less skilled than him. I don't think you can argue who is more skilled. To do so would be ridiculous assumption.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And Wolverine's beaten the century (Milena?) old Angle of Death about a million times. Hell, he fought Lazaer and a clone of himself and won despite missing part of his soul.

He's stomped Chi into the ground (this alone is more impressive then anything Shiva has ever done)

Had Junzo (a guy who one shotted IF) running from him and using all his elemental powers to keep Wolverine at bay.

Gotten DD in a full nelson in three panels.

One shotted Crossbones.

Briefly stalemated Stick. Hell, Stick even praises Wolverine's abilities and he isn't exactly mister compliment.

Beaten Zartan while severally weakened from poison.

Consistently embarrassed the Silver Samurai.

Defeated the 10 reanimated corpses of the Japanese Deadliest Samurai.

And even though he was weaken and missing part of his soul he stomped Shingen into the ground the last time they fought.

He's even gotten the better of Ogun.

You just wouldn't know a good fighter if he smacked you up your thick skull.

Wolverine wins. However, I must agree with Starscream on some points here.

Without his healing factor and adamantium skeleton, Silver Samurai would've already killed Wolverine.

And wasn't Daredevil under the heavy influence of Typhoid Mary at the time when Wolvie full-nelsoned him? I believe he was.

Now don't get me wrong. Wolverine is an extremely skilled fighter. But you just can't truthfully say that he would have won all of his hand-to-hand fights if he didn't have his adamantium skeleton and healing factor.

you forgot to mention the "world's biggest jobber aura"

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Wolverine wins. However, I must agree with Starscream on some points here.

Without his healing factor and adamantium skeleton, Silver Samurai would've already killed Wolverine.

And wasn't Daredevil under the heavy influence of Typhoid Mary at the time when Wolvie full-nelsoned him? I believe he was.

Now don't get me wrong. Wolverine is an extremely skilled fighter. But you just can't truthfully say that he would have won all of his hand-to-hand fights if he didn't have his adamantium skeleton and healing factor.

Too true, I can't argue with that

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Wolverine wins. However, I must agree with Starscream on some points here.

Without his healing factor and adamantium skeleton, Silver Samurai would've already killed Wolverine.

And wasn't Daredevil under the heavy influence of Typhoid Mary at the time when Wolvie full-nelsoned him? I believe he was.

Now don't get me wrong. Wolverine is an extremely skilled fighter. But you just can't truthfully say that he would have won all of his hand-to-hand fights if he didn't have his adamantium skeleton and healing factor.

I think that SS would've killed him even with a healing factor.

probably.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Him being stronger, faster and more skilled doesn't help either. Uh i'll give you the stronger, and a tiny bit faster. but skilled nah-uh. Give her all of Wolvie's super-human abilities and she'd do anything he'd do faster, better, and look smarter doing it.

Originally posted by Starscream M
and all that proves what?

that Logan's claws and adamantium skeleton and insane HF are tremendous clutches.

For god's sake, give my adamantium skeleton, and razor sharp claws, and a godlike HF, and I could take most of those guys down as well.

It certainly doesn't prove that he is anywhere superior in SKILL to lady shiva.

and I'm not thickheaded, you're just delusional.

You're right, you're not thick headed, you're downright ignorant. Delusional? What's delusional about anything he said? Wolverine is one of the most skilled fighters in Marvel, or I wouldn't see much reason for Marvel to keep stating that he was.
Christ, stop talking out of your ass hole. Let's go over some facts rom those examples.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And Wolverine's beaten the century (Milena?) old Angle of Death about a million times. Hell, he fought Lazaer and a clone of himself and won despite missing part of his soul.
Wolverine fought both an Angel (Who doctor Strange flat out said was/is the most skilled opponent Wolverine's ever faced) and his clone at the same time. He didn't take one hit, he disarmed the angel and used his sword to cut his clone to peices. His claws were useless against his clone because he was wearing Adamantium armor, so he had to use the angelic sword.
Everytime he fought Azreal in the afterlife, he didn't have a strong HF to do it, if he took a single mortal hit, he was done for, which is EXACTLY what happened the one time that Azreal DID hit him with a decent shot. But how many other times did he defeat the Angel? Tons... But you could have done just as well as that right Masterbruce? Because what Wolverine did had nothing to do with fighting ability.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He's stomped Chi into the ground (this alone is more impressive then anything Shiva has ever done)
Wolverine didn't even use his claws or his HF to do this? He simply outfought Chi to the point that he pinned him. Chi even flat out states that he's rarely seen one so skilled as Logan.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Had Junzo (a guy who one shotted IF) running from him and using all his elemental powers to keep Wolverine at bay.
The guy treated IF like a child, and one shotted Luke Cage unconscious, he wasn't even able to use the Iron Fist on Logan due to the fast paced attack Logan was engaging in.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Gotten DD in a full nelson in three panels.
Speaks for itself. No HF or claws required.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
One shotted Crossbones.
read above.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Briefly stalemated Stick. Hell, Stick even praises Wolverine's abilities and he isn't exactly mister compliment.

Once again, no claws, no HF, but heck you coulda done it right Masterbruce?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Beaten Zartan while severally weakened from poison.
I'm sure you could do this as well since it'd take no skill whatsoever.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Consistently embarrassed the Silver Samurai. A guy who's put Spiderman on the receiving end three times and still couldn't touch Logan till he started unveiling secrets about Logan's past. Yup, damn that HF and claws. Helping Logan to avoid SS's sword strikes like that.


Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Defeated the 10 reanimated corpses of the Japanese Deadliest Samurai.
Aside from their skill, they were suped up zombies, only went down with a head shot. Logan took every one ot them down with nothing more than a couple nicks in his uni. Guess you could have just as well with HF and no skill right?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And even though he was weaken and missing part of his soul he stomped Shingen into the ground the last time they fought.

He's even gotten the better of Ogun.
Also speak for themselves, but you know better right Masterbruce?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Wolverine wins. However, I must agree with Starscream on some points here.

Without his healing factor and adamantium skeleton, Silver Samurai would've already killed Wolverine.
In their first fight I suppose perhaps you're right.
Second fight, he was dodging everything Samurai threw his way until Samurai started telling him secrets to his past.
The second example is arguable based on the conversation they were having on how surprised logan was or wasn't based on the Muramasa secret. But it's still an incredible display of skill on his part.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
And wasn't Daredevil under the heavy influence of Typhoid Mary at the time when Wolvie full-nelsoned him? I believe he was.
No. He didn't even know what was going on when he divebombed Logan from three stories up.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Now don't get me wrong. Wolverine is an extremely skilled fighter. But you just can't truthfully say that he would have won all of his hand-to-hand fights if he didn't have his adamantium skeleton and healing factor. Considering that he didn't have to resort to an HF in most of those battles excludng the first SS one, and the ones where he did were because he was being generous with no clawed punches to begin with, yes we most certainly can.

Originally posted by Starscream M


For god's sake, give my adamantium skeleton, and razor sharp claws, and a godlike HF, and I could take most of those guys down as well.



haermm

Originally posted by jinzin


Wolverine fought both an Angel (Who doctor Strange flat out said was/is the most skilled opponent Wolverine's ever faced) and his clone at the same time.

Hmmm Dr Strange met alot of Wolverine enemies or opponents?


Originally posted by jinzin


He didn't take one hit, he disarmed the angel and used his sword to cut his clone to peices. His claws were useless against his clone because he was wearing Adamantium armor, so he had to use the angelic sword.
Everytime he fought Azreal in the afterlife, he didn't have a strong HF to do it, if he took a single mortal hit, he was done for, which is EXACTLY what happened the one time that Azreal DID hit him with a decent shot. But how many other times did he defeat the Angel? Tons... But you could have done just as well as that right Masterbruce? Because what Wolverine did had nothing to do with fighting ability.



Oh ok so lets see...that means that the clone was more skillful than Stick due to what Dr Strange said? So because Wolverine beat this guy that means he could stomp Stick or Cap in h2h?

Originally posted by jinzin

Wolverine didn't even use his claws or his HF to do this? He simply outfought Chi to the point that he pinned him. Chi even flat out states that he's rarely seen one so skilled as Logan.

Yeah i'll give you that one, but you really think if they fought again the same thing would happen?


Originally posted by jinzin

The guy treated IF like a child, and one shotted Luke Cage unconscious, he wasn't even able to use the Iron Fist on Logan due to the fast paced attack Logan was engaging in.

Yeah and I dont think Wolverine hit him either. Again it was stated that IF let his emotions get in the way of his h2h.


Originally posted by jinzin

Speaks for itself. No HF or claws required.

Again DD was distracted when he found out that the girl was typhiod mary didnt you use this same excuse when Wolverine fought Silver Samurai? Oh and how does putting DD in full nelson mean that he won the fight, DD has put Punisher in a full nelson many a time and hes got out, we just dont assume that Wolverine would have won the fight.



Originally posted by jinzin

read above.

Ok but im pretty sure his adamantuim fists would have helped.


Originally posted by jinzin

Once again, no claws, no HF, but heck you coulda done it right Masterbruce?


He stalemated Stick....how do you stalemate somebody whos not even trying to fight you? Right so Stick wasnt trying to kill him.....wasnt trying to hurt him....so what does that prove? Doesnt prove hes btter than DD doesnt prove hes better than Stick.


Originally posted by jinzin

A guy who's put Spiderman on the receiving end three times and still couldn't touch Logan till he started unveiling secrets about Logan's past. Yup, damn that HF and claws. Helping Logan to avoid SS's sword strikes like that.

Wait a minute didnt something similar happen to DD when he was fighting Wolverine? Oh yeah and Shang Chi has easily evaded SS attacks before.


Originally posted by jinzin

Aside from their skill, they were suped up zombies, only went down with a head shot. Logan took every one ot them down with nothing more than a couple nicks in his uni. Guess you could have just as well with HF and no skill right?

Ok does that prove his better than DD, Cap, Black Panther etc? Nope.

Originally posted by jinzin

Also speak for themselves, but you know better right Masterbruce?

......and if he didnt have a HF the wound in his eye would have ended the fight.

Oh hey ZONE! I was wondering when you were gonna show up and argue with some Wolverine supporters just for the sake of it using some retarded ass arguments!

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hmmm Dr Strange met alot of Wolverine enemies or opponents? Aside from an obvious answer like.. YES....
I'm just gonna assume you missed out when he used all the knowledge of the universe to deal with a gen toting Warlock.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Oh ok so lets see...that means that the clone was more skillful than Stick due to what Dr Strange said? So because Wolverine beat this guy that means he could stomp Stick or Cap in h2h?
And once again flaunting off you're reading disabilities in full form. THE ANGEL was more skillful than anyone Logan's met.. why? Because he's a higher being who's lived longer than the entirety of the human race with the sole purpose of kicking asses.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah i'll give you that one, but you really think if they fought again the same thing would happen?
Do you feel that asking me the same questions again over and over and over but in different threads is going to derive from me a different answer, I wouldn't be surprised if you do since you're.. well... bat shit crazy.. but I'll just tell you what I told you the last time you asked me this two days ago... Yes, Chi might not get AS handled but he'd still lose.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah and I dont think Wolverine hit him either. Again it was stated that IF let his emotions get in the way of his h2h.
Wolverine had at least an oppurtunity to do so with a front lepel grap when Junzo DID bust out the Iron Fist.
Again, talking in circles like a crazy person isn't going to validate non-points anymore than they did 2 days ago.

What was IF's excuse the 2n'd time he got handled? Or Luke Cages?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again DD was distracted when he found out that the girl was typhiod mary didnt you use this same excuse when Wolverine fought Silver Samurai? Oh and how does putting DD in full nelson mean that he won the fight, DD has put Punisher in a full nelson many a time and hes got out, we just dont assume that Wolverine would have won the fight.
Heard it from you about 2 dozen times. Doesn't make it anymore true. Wolverine was blindsided by DD from 3 stories up. In fact, Wolverine had been trick-attacked by Mary, snuck attacked by a friend of hers, interrupted by Vengeance, AND divebombed by DD the whole time he was running after Mary that night. Wolverine had more to worry about was blindsided first and still easily put DD in a full nelson. Apparently you think DD's years of experience since childhood, skill enough to fight competatively with Cap, focus enough to land bullseyes on top of one another, and RADAR SENSE go out the fu*kin window as soon as he learns that a person who exibits multiple personalities develops a new one. Shows how much credit you give Daredevil. Shows how inept you are too. And yes putting someone in a full nelson is indeed a sign of superiority, with Logan's strength snapping his neck would be a triffle at that point.

Meanwhile I already admitted that the Silver Samurai feat is arguable. The difference? DD wasn't dodging everything Wolverine could throw his way before being put into a full Nelson, and Wolverine actually flat out states that What Silver Samurai said was largely surprising. In spite of that, and the fact that I said it's up for debate, you continue to argue.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok but im pretty sure his adamantuim fists would have helped.
More than Cap's shield?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He stalemated Stick....how do you stalemate somebody whos not even trying to fight you? Right so Stick wasnt trying to kill him.....wasnt trying to hurt him....so what does that prove? Doesnt prove hes btter than DD doesnt prove hes better than Stick.
He WAS trying to hit him, you have NO idea whether or not he was trying to hurt him. The fact that stick has had little to no care for students like DD or Elektra while training under him in such fashion leads one to believe that he wouldn't change his heart for Wolverine's well being.
Again, I defy you to bring me an example of someone else doing better. And, you don't have to be out for the kill to display skill against another skilled opponent. Of course giving how completely ignorant you are about how the world works I wouldn't expect you to know that. How do you think sparring works? Or is that not a testiment to one's skill... Way to miss the point.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wait a minute didnt something similar happen to DD when he was fighting Wolverine? Oh yeah and Shang Chi has easily evaded SS attacks before.
When? And even if Chi has, that somehow detracts from the fact that it takes a considerable amount of skill to do it? Uh no... An the fact that you think it does only shows how you're only here for argument's sake, you're a baiting, trolling, idiot.
And NO nothing similar happened with Wolverine vs. DD... There was not panel after panel of DD avoiding Logan's blows before being caught after a surprise.
DD divebombs Logan who immediately kicks Matt in the head, they clentch and DD throws up a side kick that Wolverine blocks while sidestepping behind DD for the nelson. Even when you think DD was oh so surprised he was throwing an offensive maneuver and he got outfought. But anything to discredit Logan right? No matter how foolish it makes you look.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok does that prove his better than DD, Cap, Black Panther etc? Nope.
That wasn't even the argument. The point was that it's CERTAINLY a display of skill, that HF had no contribution to it, so it HAD to be skill. GOD YOU ARE SO FU*KIN INEPT IT'S UNREAL... You can't be this damn dumb! You can't be! It's impossible Alfhiem....



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
......and if he didnt have a HF the wound in his eye would have ended the fight. WHAT? how in the bloody hell did you come to that conclusion? If he didn't have an HF he wouldn't have a right eye, it wouldn't have ended the fight, it would have robbed Logan of one eye for the rest of the fight/his life, and since the rest of the fight only lasted a panel or two after that, that's exactly what happened. He still won, and would have regardless of HF...

Again, you can't be that stupid, you're just trying to get a rise out of Wolverine supporters right? That's it right? I mean, that would be the only reason you would post shit that makes you look this idiotic...

If they had the same stats i think Shiva would win but this fight is not in her favor at all.

Originally posted by jinzin


Aside from an obvious answer like.. YES....
I'm just gonna assume you missed out when he used all the knowledge of the universe to deal with a gen toting Warlock.

I tell you what prove that Dr Strange knows Cap, Sticks martial art skill in-depth.

Originally posted by jinzin


And once again flaunting off you're reading disabilities in full form. THE ANGEL was more skillful than anyone Logan's met.. why? Because he's a higher being who's lived longer than the entirety of the human race with the sole purpose of kicking asses.

Its obvoulsy bs because if that were the case then he could defeat Cap, DD etc without being hit and thats obvoulsy not the case.


Originally posted by jinzin


Do you feel that asking me the same questions again over and over and over but in different threads is going to derive from me a different answer, I wouldn't be surprised if you do since you're.. well... bat shit crazy.. but I'll just tell you what I told you the last time you asked me this two days ago... Yes, Chi might not get AS handled but he'd still lose.


Yes 2 days ago were the thread got closed and I couldnt reply.



Originally posted by jinzin


Wolverine had at least an oppurtunity to do so with a front lepel grap when Junzo DID bust out the Iron Fist.

Are you assuming things again, did you see how Junzo blocked Wolverine attempt to cut him with the claws?
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/906/ironfistjuno6im9.jpg

Originally posted by jinzin


Again, talking in circles like a crazy person isn't going to validate non-points anymore than they did 2 days ago.

Again thread got closed...for spite.

Originally posted by jinzin

What was IF's excuse the 2n'd time he got handled? Or Luke Cages?


On both ocassions IF knew that Junzo had kidnapped Misty and had ripped out her arm. So yeah the excuse applies to both cirumstances

Originally posted by jinzin

Heard it from you about 2 dozen times. Doesn't make it anymore true. Wolverine was blindsided by DD from 3 stories up. In fact, Wolverine had been trick-attacked by Mary, snuck attacked by a friend of hers, interrupted by Vengeance, AND divebombed by DD the whole time he was running after Mary that night. Wolverine had more to worry about was blindsided first and still easily put DD in a full nelson. Apparently you think DD's years of experience since childhood, skill enough to fight competatively with Cap, focus enough to land bullseyes on top of one another, and RADAR SENSE go out the fu*kin window as soon as he learns that a person who exibits multiple personalities develops a new one. Shows how much credit you give Daredevil. Shows how inept you are too. And yes putting someone in a full nelson is indeed a sign of superiority, with Logan's strength snapping his neck would be a triffle at that point.

Meanwhile I already admitted that the Silver Samurai feat is arguable. The difference? DD wasn't dodging everything Wolverine could throw his way before being put into a full Nelson, and Wolverine actually flat out states that What Silver Samurai said was largely surprising. In spite of that, and the fact that I said it's up for debate, you continue to argue.


The thread was closed! I didn't bother to read your response. I dunno still sounds like your trying to make excuses though, you're still trying to imply that Wolverine stated that what SS said was suprising but ignoring the fact that DD was still suprised despite the excuses you're making. If its arguable then stop using it as an example.

Please stop giving Wolverine the benefit of the doubt you dont bloody well know wether he would have broken his neck. Hell DDs got Frank in full-nelsons before he still got out of them.

Originally posted by jinzin


More than Cap's shield?

I dont remeber Cap hitting him with his shield the first time, maybe he did the second time.


Originally posted by jinzin


He WAS trying to hit him, you have NO idea whether or not he was trying to hurt him. The fact that stick has had little to no care for students like DD or Elektra while training under him in such fashion leads one to believe that he wouldn't change his heart for Wolverine's well being.

He obvoulsy wasn't trying his best! I didnt say he wasnt trying to hurt him he obvoulsy wasnt trying to SERIOULSY hurt him ie put him in intensive care.

Hell remember when Wolverine tried to grab Spiderman in Secret Wars...your response was....

Originally posted by jinzin


Again, I defy you to bring me an example of someone else doing better. And, you don't have to be out for the kill to display skill against another skilled opponent. Of course giving how completely ignorant you are about how the world works I wouldn't expect you to know that. How do you think sparring works? Or is that not a testiment to one's skill... Way to miss the point.

Im not bringing anything because it doesnt prove that hes better than any top tier martial artist . Hell Spiderman might even be able to dodge a non-bloodlusted Stick.


Originally posted by jinzin


When? And even if Chi has, that somehow detracts from the fact that it takes a considerable amount of skill to do it? Uh no... An the fact that you think it does only shows how you're only here for argument's sake, you're a baiting, trolling, idiot.
And NO nothing similar happened with Wolverine vs. DD... There was not panel after panel of DD avoiding Logan's blows before being caught after a surprise.
DD divebombs Logan who immediately kicks Matt in the head, they clentch and DD throws up a side kick that Wolverine blocks while sidestepping behind DD for the nelson. Even when you think DD was oh so surprised he was throwing an offensive maneuver and he got outfought. But anything to discredit Logan right? No matter how foolish it makes you look.


*sigh* Yes the examples are similar they both got suprised by what somebody said, stop making excuses you hypocrite.

Originally posted by jinzin

That wasn't even the argument. The point was that it's CERTAINLY a display of skill, that HF had no contribution to it, so it HAD to be skill. GOD YOU ARE SO FU*KIN INEPT IT'S UNREAL... You can't be this damn dumb! You can't be! It's impossible Alfhiem....

I dont care I thought id throw that in just in case.

Originally posted by jinzin

WHAT? how in the bloody hell did you come to that conclusion? If he didn't have an HF he wouldn't have a right eye, it wouldn't have ended the fight, it would have robbed Logan of one eye for the rest of the fight/his life, and since the rest of the fight only lasted a panel or two after that, that's exactly what happened. He still won, and would have regardless of HF...

Ok lets try this again......when.....wolverine....didnt...have....his....HF.....did ....you ....see...how...much....pain...he...was...in...when...het ...got...stabbed...in...the...foot. Getting your eye slashed is considerably more painful than getting satbbed in the foot, it would have seriously hindered his ability to fight.

Originally posted by jinzin

Again, you can't be that stupid, you're just trying to get a rise out of Wolverine supporters right? That's it right? I mean, that would be the only reason you would post shit that makes you look this idiotic...

Its just that you're an obnoxious hypocrite who is incapable of being objective. Thankfully some people in the Blade vs Cap thread and Wolverine h2h gauntlet saw this. If I can irritate you through legitimate debate then I will

LOL just looked at the scana again. Wolverine won teh fought due to his claws again.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/dprfla/wolvievsShang2.jpg

If he hadnt had the claws the fight would have kept going on, also Wolverine HF alsp helps him take damage that Shang gives him.

That certainly doent prove that he can beat Shang in h2h. Blowing things out of proportion again. Also im pretty sure that Shang has fought people like Wolverine before was is the writer trying to make out he hasn't?

Wolverine every time, Shiva can't put him down.
I think the whole who's more skilled argument is somewhat irrelevant. They both are expert martial artists and know so many fighting styles that any confrontation between them would be decided by other factors (That's if Wolverine was a human)

Originally posted by The Pict

I think the whole who's more skilled argument is somewhat irrelevant. They both are expert martial artists and know so many fighting styles that any confrontation between them would be decided by other factors (That's if Wolverine was a human)

I know and I dont care.

Originally posted by Sado22

you forgot to mention the "world's biggest jobber aura" no batmans is still bigger than wolverines.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I tell you what prove that Dr Strange knows Cap, Sticks martial art skill in-depth.
Doc's worked with Cap before, Doc's worked with DD before, the man was able to see in depth play by play into Wolverine's past to see the battle first hand, he's able to account things that take place in the past, in the future, accross the MU, and in different planes of reality, he's used spells that have given him intimate knowledge of the MU, he's a well versed member of the Illuminate, he's able to use spells that can tell him the most intimate secrets of a hero/villain at nothing more than a request, but in spite of all that, in spite of the likelyhood that he'd know more about Cap's fighting ability than you, more about Cap's fighting ability than ME, or the facts that the story was clearly supposed to present Azrael as what he was stated to be, or the common sense of him being a higher level being who's been alive longer than the human race has existed for the sole purpose of fighting/killing... You'll still continue to argue... that is after all what you do isn't it?


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its obvoulsy bs because if that were the case then he could defeat Cap, DD etc without being hit and thats obvoulsy not the case.

Obviously? He's fought Cap weakened and being surprise attacked repeatedily. He's fought DD being blindsided and mindcontrolled. He's faired well on all occasions. And his ability to beat Az doesn't mean he's untouchable, nor does it detract from other people's fighting ability, but it DOES show a massive amount of skill on his part.
OF COURSE anything that shows Wolverine as a skilled character is BS according to you why wouldn't it be?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes 2 days ago were the thread got closed and I couldnt reply.

What does THAT have to do with anything? You don't need to reply to understand my answer. You asked a question I answered it, you can go back and still look at the answer, no reply necessary, so why ask the question again? You CAN NOT be this dumb ALF...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Are you assuming things again, did you see how Junzo blocked Wolverine attempt to cut him with the claws?
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/906/ironfistjuno6im9.jpg
That's not even the page I referenced.
The NEXT PAGE Junzo whips out the IF and Wolverine grabs him by the collar at which point J had to go in the defensive to avoid being skewered. He was fighting a completely defensive battle, more than Cage or Fist can say.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again thread got closed...for spite.
SO.... WHAT?
What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't make your misinterpretation and neglect of the events being discussed any more valid. Nice red herring though.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
On both ocassions IF knew that Junzo had kidnapped Misty and had ripped out her arm. So yeah the excuse applies to both cirumstances
No it doesn't....
One occasion IF attacked out of base reaction. The other was after he had a couple minutes to compose himself and assess the situation he got HANDLED both times. You're just pulling shit out of your ass to rob Wolverine of any credability like you always do.
Which is why you're a fool.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The thread was closed! I didn't bother to read your response. I dunno still sounds like your trying to make excuses though, you're still trying to imply that Wolverine stated that what SS said was suprising but ignoring the fact that DD was still suprised despite the excuses you're making. If its arguable then stop using it as an example.
Please stop giving Wolverine the benefit of the doubt you dont bloody well know wether he would have broken his neck. Hell DDs got Frank in full-nelsons before he still got out of them.

I suppose I should rob him the benefit of the doubt like you do instead?
Uh, no, it doesn't sound like I'm making excuses mister "DD was surprised even though he surprise attacked Logan out of nowhere!" what it DOES sound like is that I read the story.. Like I usually do, which is why I understand context, and why you look foolish in comparison.

I ALREADY said the SS feat is arguable 3 times now, what part of that are you not coming to terms with? There's major differences, like DD on the offensive when he was "surprised"...
And DD and Punisher are close in terms of strength, Punisher seems to be a bit bigger/broader to boot. Wolverine's quite stronger than Matt.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont remeber Cap hitting him with his shield the first time, maybe he did the second time.
Fought more than twice, and Crossbones hasn't been knocked out by a shield hit, he was one shotted by Logan, that's impressive, and at least SOME indicator of skill.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He obvoulsy wasn't trying his best! I didnt say he wasnt trying to hurt him he obvoulsy wasnt trying to SERIOULSY hurt him ie put him in intensive care.
And if he was, he might have been bererkered out on and beaten to a pulp like ogun was.
If's and buts.
On the other hand I'll ask again, do you think sparring has nothing to do with skill? Do you think that display was NOT a display of skill? Can you find someone else doing better?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hell remember when Wolverine tried to grab Spiderman in Secret Wars...your response was.... My response was what?
There's a difference between getting handled when you're trying to capture an opponent being the definitive focus of your capabilities even though it's contradicted by direct evidence multiples of times and two skilled fighters sparring eachother, supported by loads of evidence... But you don't care anything about context do ya Kotex?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im not bringing anything because it doesnt prove that hes better than any top tier martial artist . Hell Spiderman might even be able to dodge a non-bloodlusted Stick. You're not bringing up anything because you don't have a lick of proof to support your ass as usual. Spiderman may very well be able to dodge a bloodlusted Stick too, the difference between that hypothetical and Wolverine's feat is that Spiderman's would be against a consistency of evidence. Wolverine's isn't... but of course you wouldn't recognize that when you don't even think Wolverine's a skilled fighter to begin with? Why? Because you're a fool.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* Yes the examples are similar they both got suprised by what somebody said, stop making excuses you hypocrite. There's nothing hypocritical about it. It's just you ignoring context like an idiot, like you always do.

Unless you have phantom scans of DD dodging Wolverine with a smile on his face panel after panel before he got "surprised" or DD stopped fighting for a moment when he was "surprised" Oh that's right! That didn't happen... DD was immediately kicked in the head for his surprise attack and then handled while trying to take the offensive. They're not the same and I already said SS was up for debate. You're arguing for arguments sake and losing horribly.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont care I thought id throw that in just in case.
Just in case WHAT?
No one brought up being better than Panther or Cap or anything like that, just that it IS indeed a massive display of skill. You're immediate retort was so off base that it doesn't even have a place in the same discussion. You "threw it in" because you're a fool.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok lets try this again......when.....wolverine....didnt...have....his....HF.....did ....you ....see...how...much....pain...he...was...in...when...het ...got...stabbed...in...the...foot. Getting your eye slashed is considerably more painful than getting satbbed in the foot, it would have seriously hindered his ability to fight.
Okay let's try this again..... Wolverine continued to fight against Lady Deathstrike, against OMEGA F*CKING RED! And hold his own in spite of injuries, he then continued to fight Sabretooth with those same injuries AND WIN....

Lets review... Does the HF help his pain tolerance?
NO:
Rogue has his HF it doesn't help with the pain:
Rogues body starts taking on the physical characteristics of verious people she's toched throughout the years. She formulates Wolverine's claws and tells him that it's the worst pain she's ever felt; We find that Wolverine ALWAYS has to endure unbelievable pain with his claws and his HF is always working on the cuts they make inside his arms as a result of them being sheathed.
1. http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/...lawshurthp7.jpg
2. http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...awshurt2cr6.jpg

WITH OUT HIS HF HE STILL:
Even without a healing factor and inhibited by admantium posioning, Wolverine continues to struggle after being cattle prodded with enough volts to aledgedly put down an elepthant; actually it says a whole heard:
1. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5641/shockhl0.jpg
2. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8854/shock2qr3.jpg

And here, not only does Wolverine state his HF has no bearing on pain tolerance, he actually says it makes pain WORSE when he starts regrowing damage:
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9340/mwolverinepainxj8.jpg

Once again, trying to insinuate you know more about Wolverine than high level Wolverine fans.
Once again.....
you're a fool..

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its just that you're an obnoxious hypocrite who is incapable of being objective. Thankfully some people in the Blade vs Cap thread and Wolverine h2h gauntlet saw this. If I can irritate you through legitimate debate then I will I'm perfectly capible of being objective. It's one of the reasons I take CONTEXT into consideration. Try it sometime.

Some people? OneDumb threw a ***** fit, and Snoop keeps reading into more arguments than I'm making... Do I need to reiderate how many people think you're a fool?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL just looked at the scana again. Wolverine won teh fought due to his claws again.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/dprfla/wolvievsShang2.jpg

If he hadnt had the claws the fight would have kept going on, also Wolverine HF alsp helps him take damage that Shang gives him.

That certainly doent prove that he can beat Shang in h2h. Blowing things out of proportion again. Also im pretty sure that Shang has fought people like Wolverine before was is the writer trying to make out he hasn't? I see, so when Punisher and Bullseye exchange blows and he whips out a gun after landing the last effective shot to end the quarrel that's a win, when Wolverine and Shang exchange blows and Wolverine whips out his claws after landing the last effecive shot.. "the fight could have kept going"... Yup, but I'm the one who's hypocritical?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I know and I dont care. Xactly, you just argue for the sake of it. You're a baiting troll.

Jinzin, two things. First, calm down, dude.

Second, I just read that Iron Fist / Wolverine limited series with Junzo. The reason Iron Fist was captured and in the cell in the first place was because he got whacked by an actual dragon when he was depowered. Just in case other people are doing a double-take, yes. Danny was knocked out by an actual flying dragon. He thought that since the dragon was from Kun Lun, the dragon would recognize him and not attack him. Unfortunately for Danny, the dragon was already being controlled. When he finally woke up, he was already in the cell with Yu Ti. And again, since he was depowered, no healing chi abilities. Was there a reason you neglected to mention that piece of information?

So a depowered Danny Rand, injured and knocked out by a flying dragon, who was distraught over Misty... getting thrown around by Junzo is a good example to compare with Wolverine, who himself didn't even lay a single hit on Junzo? K. Not really.

Phantomzone, apparently that was the first time Shang-Chi fought Wolverine.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jinzin, two things. First, calm down, dude.

Second, I just read that Iron Fist / Wolverine limited series with Junzo. The reason Iron Fist was captured and in the cell in the first place was because he got whacked by an actual dragon when he was depowered. Just in case other people are doing a double-take, yes. Danny was knocked out by an actual flying dragon. He thought that since the dragon was from Kun Lun, the dragon would recognize him and not attack him. Unfortunately for Danny, the dragon was already being controlled. When he finally woke up, he was already in the cell with Yu Ti. And again, since he was depowered, no healing chi abilities. Was there a reason you neglected to mention that piece of information?

So a depowered Danny Rand, injured and knocked out by a flying dragon, who was distraught over Misty... getting thrown around by Junzo is a good example to compare with Wolverine, who himself didn't even lay a single hit on Junzo? K. Not really.

Phantomzone, apparently that was the first time Shang-Chi fought Wolverine. I'm perfectly calm. I'm simply pointing out Zone for what he is.. a fool.

I don't recall Fist stating that he was injured or anything of the sort. Characters are KOed all the time wake up and fight the bad guy. I didn't consider that IF was injured since he never stated himself to be, nor do I remember it being implied though I could be mistaken, we already know he didn't have the IF which is why it's a testiment to sheer skill more than anything else. And Wolverine had a front lepel grab on Junzo, it's why Junzo started fighting defensively in spite of having his IF whipped out.

Distraught over Misty the first time he attacked him, the second?

Furthermore I fail to see the issue here when he's manhandled Steel Serpent as well who himself was a direct equal in danny in h2h combat.

Wolverine's claws played little role in his man handling of Shang Chi. They didn't even make an appearance until the end of the fight when Chi was already pinned and had his head wedged between two bars. Alternatively, Wolverine could have just squeezed the shit out his throat, stopping blood flow to Chi's brain and forcing him to lose consciousness quickly. Once again, his claws played little part in that fight. When Wolverine was inside The Cage, he had Crusher Creel in a similar possession (without his claws) and said he could kill him in 43 different ways.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm perfectly calm. I'm simply pointing out Zone for what he is.. a fool.

I don't recall Fist stating that he was injured or anything of the sort. Characters are KOed all the time wake up and fight the bad guy. I didn't consider that IF was injured since he never stated himself to be, nor do I remember it being implied though I could be mistaken, we already know he didn't have the IF which is why it's a testiment to sheer skill more than anything else. And Wolverine had a front lepel grab on Junzo, it's why Junzo started fighting defensively in spite of having his IF whipped out.

Distraught over Misty the first time he attacked him, the second?

Furthermore I fail to see the issue here when he's manhandled Steel Serpent as well who himself was a direct equal in danny in h2h combat. I was talking more about your use of swearing and characterizations that both Phantomzone and I were throwing PMS/b1tch fits. Let's all just reset and be more courteous. Makes the debates and reasoning look better. Truce?

And yes, if Iron Fist were struck with a staff to the back of the head and woke up... I could see him being ok once he wakes up. But that's not the case here. He got whacked by a flying dragon. And this dragon isn't like Lockheed's size. It was the size of a big truck or something. He didn't defend himself because he was hoping the dragon would recognize him. When he wakes up in the dungeon, that's when Junzo starts throwing him around. No way are you near 100% after having just woken up from being whacked by a flying dragon. Wolverine would be a 100% because of his healing factor, not depowered Danny Rand.

And he was distraught over Misty from the beginning. He didn't know where she was, only that Junzo captured her. They even have a conversation about how Iron Fist is losing his cool the first time Junzo throws him around. Obviously, he was more distraught the second time Junzo throws him around since that is after Junzo shows him her severed arm.

I also fail to see the issue here when we have a recovering Iron Fist embarassing Wolverine on-panel. Fact is, the Junzo comparisons are not as clear cut as you'd like them to be. Heck, Luke Cage in his yellow shirt managed to actually hit Junzo. Is he now the better of both Iron Fist and Wolverine? Nah.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I know and I dont care. So, you are disregarding feats, abilities and showings?

Logan takes this handily but only due to his claws, h2h and based on skill he would be stomped 10/10.

Originally posted by Badabing
So, you are disregarding feats, abilities and showings? so it would appear.

Originally posted by Badabing
So, you are disregarding feats, abilities and showings?

Er no. Im just saying that I think that Wolverine cant beat Lady shiva via skill.

Pict said thats irrelevant I dont care because I just want to discuss Wolverines skill level but im well aware that Wolverine beats Lady Shiva with his claws and HF.

Originally posted by carnage52
so it would appear.

Nope. Im just discusiing Wolverines skill level he wins via Hf and claws.

Originally posted by jinzin
I see, so when Punisher and Bullseye exchange blows and he whips out a gun after landing the last effective shot to end the quarrel that's a win, when Wolverine and Shang exchange blows and Wolverine whips out his claws after landing the last effecive shot.. "the fight could have kept going"... Yup, but I'm the one who's hypocritical?

Read the Punisher scans again. Bullseye waited 3panels for Punisher to put the gun to his head. Why didnt he move for three panels he was obvoulsy too dazed to move, the fight had already been won.

In the Shang Chi fight there absolutely no proof that Shang Chi was dazed. All we see is Wolverine put his claws to his head and hold his head with the other hand. Nobody in that position would move because they know they will get a claw in his head.

So no im not being hypocritical.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I was talking more about your use of swearing and characterizations that both Phantomzone and I were throwing PMS/b1tch fits. Let's all just reset and be more courteous. Makes the debates and reasoning look better. Truce?

And yes, if Iron Fist were struck with a staff to the back of the head and woke up... I could see him being ok once he wakes up. But that's not the case here. He got whacked by a flying dragon. And this dragon isn't like Lockheed's size. It was the size of a big truck or something. He didn't defend himself because he was hoping the dragon would recognize him. When he wakes up in the dungeon, that's when Junzo starts throwing him around. No way are you near 100% after having just woken up from being whacked by a flying dragon. Wolverine would be a 100% because of his healing factor, not depowered Danny Rand.

And he was distraught over Misty from the beginning. He didn't know where she was, only that Junzo captured her. They even have a conversation about how Iron Fist is losing his cool the first time Junzo throws him around. Obviously, he was more distraught the second time Junzo throws him around since that is after Junzo shows him her severed arm.

I also fail to see the issue here when we have a recovering Iron Fist embarassing Wolverine on-panel. Fact is, the Junzo comparisons are not as clear cut as you'd like them to be. Heck, Luke Cage in his yellow shirt managed to actually hit Junzo. Is he now the better of both Iron Fist and Wolverine? Nah.

Wow what a suprise, you went up to check if Jinzins facts were correct and found out they weren't.

You can make a truce with him if you like but ive already tried being polite to him in the past and hes continued to be rude to me, so as long as I dont go overboard im going to be as rude as I like...within KMC rules. Why should I be polite to somebody who is incapable of being objective and constantly rude, there no half way with him so im not going to be polite

Originally posted by jinzin
Doc's worked with Cap before, Doc's worked with DD before, the man was able to see in depth play by play into Wolverine's past to see the battle first hand, he's able to account things that take place in the past, in the future, accross the MU, and in different planes of reality, he's used spells that have given him intimate knowledge of the MU, he's a well versed member of the Illuminate, he's able to use spells that can tell him the most intimate secrets of a hero/villain at nothing more than a request, but in spite of all that, in spite of the likelyhood that he'd know more about Cap's fighting ability than you, more about Cap's fighting ability than ME, or the facts that the story was clearly supposed to present Azrael as what he was stated to be, or the common sense of him being a higher level being who's been alive longer than the human race has existed for the sole purpose of fighting/killing... You'll still continue to argue... that is after all what you do isn't it?

Meh i'll think i'll give you that anyway see below.

Originally posted by jinzin

Obviously? He's fought Cap weakened and being surprise attacked repeatedily. He's fought DD being blindsided and mindcontrolled. He's faired well on all occasions. And his ability to beat Az doesn't mean he's untouchable, nor does it detract from other people's fighting ability, but it DOES show a massive amount of skill on his part.
OF COURSE anything that shows Wolverine as a skilled character is BS according to you why wouldn't it be?

Ok read what I said again. I didnt say that Wolverine didnt have skill. I said if Az is the most skillful opponent hes faced and he didnt get touched once that means that he can beat Cap, Stick and DD without being hit......that is obvoulsy bs.


Originally posted by jinzin

What does THAT have to do with anything? You don't need to reply to understand my answer. You asked a question I answered it, you can go back and still look at the answer, no reply necessary, so why ask the question again? You CAN NOT be this dumb ALF...

..and I didn't read it because the thread was closed and I couldn't reply to it. Thats not stupidity thats my reason and im not going to argue with you over this.

Originally posted by jinzin

That's not even the page I referenced.
The NEXT PAGE Junzo whips out the IF and Wolverine grabs him by the collar at which point J had to go in the defensive to avoid being skewered. He was fighting a completely defensive battle, more than Cage or Fist can say.

*sigh*.....IF was letting his emotions get to him when he fought Junzo, it affected his ability to fight......ok?

Originally posted by jinzin

SO.... WHAT?
What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't make your misinterpretation and neglect of the events being discussed any more valid. Nice red herring though.

Well you always like to go on about how people on this forum think im a fool when the whole thread was about Wolverine pure h2h skill, obvoulsy the fact that it was closed for spite wont sink into your head because you dont want to understand what it implies.

Originally posted by jinzin

No it doesn't....
One occasion IF attacked out of base reaction. The other was after he had a couple minutes to compose himself and assess the situation he got HANDLED both times. You're just pulling shit out of your ass to rob Wolverine of any credability like you always do.
Which is why you're a fool.

Right so the fact that Junzo said he was being too emotional and the fact that even IF was also b*tching about Misty should be completely ignored?

Originally posted by jinzin

I suppose I should rob him the benefit of the doubt like you do instead?
Uh, no, it doesn't sound like I'm making excuses mister "DD was surprised even though he surprise attacked Logan out of nowhere!" what it DOES sound like is that I read the story.. Like I usually do, which is why I understand context, and why you look foolish in comparison.

I ALREADY said the SS feat is arguable 3 times now, what part of that are you not coming to terms with? There's major differences, like DD on the offensive when he was "surprised"...
And DD and Punisher are close in terms of strength, Punisher seems to be a bit bigger/broader to boot. Wolverine's quite stronger than Matt.


WHOA! Im pretty sure you've said that DD was considerablly stronger than Punsiher and and his strength feats are much better. Anyway they are.

Oh yeah DD pushed Wolverine and 2 hand ninjas down the stairs.

Originally posted by jinzin

Fought more than twice, and Crossbones hasn't been knocked out by a shield hit, he was one shotted by Logan, that's impressive, and at least SOME indicator of skill.

What the hell i'll give you that.

Originally posted by jinzin

And if he was, he might have been bererkered out on and beaten to a pulp like ogun was.
If's and buts.
On the other hand I'll ask again, do you think sparring has nothing to do with skill? Do you think that display was NOT a display of skill? Can you find someone else doing better?

Argh! Im not arguing that it doesnt show skill im pointing out that it doesnt make Wolverine better than DD, Cap etc.

Originally posted by jinzin

My response was what?
There's a difference between getting handled when you're trying to capture an opponent being the definitive focus of your capabilities even though it's contradicted by direct evidence multiples of times and two skilled fighters sparring eachother, supported by loads of evidence... But you don't care anything about context do ya Kotex?

You're not bringing up anything because you don't have a lick of proof to support your ass as usual. Spiderman may very well be able to dodge a bloodlusted Stick too, the difference between that hypothetical and Wolverine's feat is that Spiderman's would be against a consistency of evidence. Wolverine's isn't... but of course you wouldn't recognize that when you don't even think Wolverine's a skilled fighter to begin with? Why? Because you're a fool.

No arguing that it doesnt make him skillful.

Originally posted by jinzin

There's nothing hypocritical about it. It's just you ignoring context like an idiot, like you always do.

Unless you have phantom scans of DD dodging Wolverine with a smile on his face panel after panel before he got "surprised" or DD stopped fighting for a moment when he was "surprised" Oh that's right! That didn't happen... DD was immediately kicked in the head for his surprise attack and then handled while trying to take the offensive. They're not the same and I already said SS was up for debate. You're arguing for arguments sake and losing horribly.

Look the only reason why you're starting to concede is because you got the riot act from DumbGo and people were starting to see what a hypocrite you are in both the Wolverine h2h gauntlet and Blade vs Cap thread.

Anyway, putting somebody in a full nelson doesnt mean they would have won the fight.


Originally posted by jinzin

Just in case WHAT?
No one brought up being better than Panther or Cap or anything like that, just that it IS indeed a massive display of skill. You're immediate retort was so off base that it doesn't even have a place in the same discussion. You "threw it in" because you're a fool.

Whatever you say.





Originally posted by jinzin
Okay let's try this again..... Wolverine continued to fight against Lady Deathstrike, against OMEGA F*CKING RED! And hold his own in spite of injuries, he then continued to fight Sabretooth with those same injuries AND WIN....

Er im not arguing that the HF negates apain im saying that it helps. Clearly during the fight eventhough he coped with pain, it clearly hurt more than usual.


http://img131.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=6948f_logan_strikeomega7.jpg

http://img129.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=b4f7d_logan_strikeomega4.jpg

Also when Sabretooth stabbed him in the foot Wolverine cried out in pain.

So lets see if I can get this straight Wolverine got stabbed up Shingen has been blasted at point blank with a gun and hasnt flinched all with a HF, but when he gets stabbed in the foot he cries out in agony im supposed to think that his pain tolerance is the same?

Originally posted by jinzin

Lets review... Does the HF help his pain tolerance?
NO:
Rogue has his HF it doesn't help with the pain:
Rogues body starts taking on the physical characteristics of verious people she's toched throughout the years. She formulates Wolverine's claws and tells him that it's the worst pain she's ever felt; We find that Wolverine ALWAYS has to endure unbelievable pain with his claws and his HF is always working on the cuts they make inside his arms as a result of them being sheathed.
1. http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/...lawshurthp7.jpg
2. http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/...awshurt2cr6.jpg


That doesnt disprove that the HF doesnt help with the pain. Im not arguing that he doesnt feel pain with the HF im arguing that it still hurts but he deals with it better.

If you take her with and without HF and see what Rogues says then you have proof. All that proves is that she still feels pain with a HF and oh yeah if thats from Xtreme Xmen sometimes she had his Hf other times she didnt...the scans dont work.

Originally posted by jinzin

WITH OUT HIS HF HE STILL:
Even without a healing factor and inhibited by admantium posioning, Wolverine continues to struggle after being cattle prodded with enough volts to aledgedly put down an elepthant; actually it says a whole heard:
1. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5641/shockhl0.jpg
2. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8854/shock2qr3.jpg


1. Its metaphorical.
2. Im not arguing that he cant take pain resistance without his HF, obvoulsy his HF would have helped him cope with it better.

Originally posted by jinzin

And here, not only does Wolverine state his HF has no bearing on pain tolerance, he actually says it makes pain WORSE when he starts regrowing damage:
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9340/mwolverinepainxj8.jpg

Once again, trying to insinuate you know more about Wolverine than high level Wolverine fans.
Once again.....
you're a fool..

I'm perfectly capible of being objective. It's one of the reasons I take CONTEXT into consideration. Try it sometime.

Some people? OneDumb threw a ***** fit, and Snoop keeps reading into more arguments than I'm making... Do I need to reiderate how many people think you're a fool?

Contradicts the other examples ive gven so its thrown out as evidence.

P.S. Snoop is just fed up with your excuses. I mean when you come up with stuff like Wolverine grrd and thus he paused allowing Blade to hit him, you're just being completely baised and unfair. Have some shame.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er no. Im just saying that I think that Wolverine cant beat Lady shiva via skill.

Pict said thats irrelevant I dont care because I just want to discuss Wolverines skill level but im well aware that Wolverine beats Lady Shiva with his claws and HF.



Nope. Im just discusiing Wolverines skill level he wins via Hf and claws. Bullshit you're sdiscarding any feat YOU don't agree with:

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Contradicts the other examples ive gven so its thrown out as evidence.

See? Even if your scans DON'T prove what you claim they do because the scans contradict YOU you discard them. Even though you have only ONE scan. When there are at least TWO others that also contradict you.

I can think of three off of the top of my head that contradict the way you interpret the one. So what gives you the authority to discard feats? ESPECIALLY when the way you interpret your ONE scan is contradicted by AT LEAST three?

Yeah, you're nothing but a baiting troll.

Originally posted by Creshosk

See? Even if your scans DON'T prove what you claim they do because the scans contradict YOU you discard them. Even though you have only ONE scan. When there are at least TWO others that also contradict you.

I can think of three off of the top of my head that contradict the way you interpret the one. So what gives you the authority to discard feats? ESPECIALLY when the way you interpret your ONE scan is contradicted by AT LEAST three?

Yeah, you're nothing but a baiting troll.

Look at the scans. Wolverine gets stabbed in the foot and he cries out in pain, the other scan shows him getting stabbed in the arm and clearly reacting to the pain.

With his his HF he wouldnt have flinched, he also cries out in pain when he got stabbed through the foot by Sabretooth...compare that to when he has the HF...Jesus!

You dont have any of examples of Wolverine contradicting my scans. That shows that Wolverine can take pain without his HF but it doesnt contradict that its hurts more without it. One of those scans shows him taking electrical damage hell Emma Frost has been shoccked by a bloodlusted storm and just because they can take electrical damage does not mean they can cope with edged damage more.

Again the Rogue example simply shows that she still can feel pain with the HF. If you have examples with Rogue with and without HF with the claws and you compare her reaction then you have proof, until then you're just making assumptions.

Again I could be wrong but Rogue did not even have all of Wolverines powers at the same time, but I would need to check up on that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I was talking more about your use of swearing and characterizations that both Phantomzone and I were throwing PMS/b1tch fits. Let's all just reset and be more courteous. Makes the debates and reasoning look better. Truce?

And yes, if Iron Fist were struck with a staff to the back of the head and woke up... I could see him being ok once he wakes up. But that's not the case here. He got whacked by a flying dragon. And this dragon isn't like Lockheed's size. It was the size of a big truck or something. He didn't defend himself because he was hoping the dragon would recognize him. When he wakes up in the dungeon, that's when Junzo starts throwing him around. No way are you near 100% after having just woken up from being whacked by a flying dragon. Wolverine would be a 100% because of his healing factor, not depowered Danny Rand.

And he was distraught over Misty from the beginning. He didn't know where she was, only that Junzo captured her. They even have a conversation about how Iron Fist is losing his cool the first time Junzo throws him around. Obviously, he was more distraught the second time Junzo throws him around since that is after Junzo shows him her severed arm.

I also fail to see the issue here when we have a recovering Iron Fist embarassing Wolverine on-panel. Fact is, the Junzo comparisons are not as clear cut as you'd like them to be. Heck, Luke Cage in his yellow shirt managed to actually hit Junzo. Is he now the better of both Iron Fist and Wolverine? Nah. I'll honestly have to go back to look at how the dragon hit him as I don't remember. Again, if he was injured I would have thought that Iron Fist would have said so at some point AT ALL during the run, I don't remember him attributing ANYTHING to being weaker/wounded, etc. so I'm not entirely sure that we can say he was wounded while fighting Junzo either. I'll go back and check that out though.
Still, there's two issues there. Junzo has beaten Iron Fist in an off panel instance before he stole the Iron Fist, and he beat Steel Serpent in an off panel fight before he ever stole ANY high level chi, so he would have had to have beaten a mirror equal to Iron Fist, without any powers whatsoever.
Perhaps IF was injured, but it was never referenced. Perhaps the example isn't quite clear cut but it certainly does seem that Wolverine was doing something IF couldn't and the way IF was represented he seemed to be extremely impressed by the showing.
In any case, in every case, I fail to see how it's NOT a display of skill high level skill.

Now, you say that you see no problems with IF having his superior showing over Wolverine years ago. I've already stated why this is or should be up for debate here. This event took place years before Wolverine began showing serious displays of h2h skill, before the samurai was written as part of his characterization, and only a couple years after his 2nd appearance if that. It was still up in the air whether or not Wolverine was a man mutated from an actual Wolverine, he wasn't a fully developed character, nor was his skill set. Similar to Wolverine, Sabretooth was also referenced as having absolutely no skill while fighting Wolverine and the two were equated to one another by IF.
You said you wanted to be curteous to one another, and that's fine, I have no problems with that, but curteousness implies we be polite enough to answer someone's questions when they ask you something of some importance. I asked you several times in that last thread to no answer so I'll ask you again.

Wolverine was not a developed character who had no popularity in an IF comic, He faired poorly. Do you or don't you think he would have faired just as poorly half a decade to a decade later in terms of sheer skill? Do you or don't you think that Wolverine being underdeveloped in that fight played a signicicant role as to the fight's outcome?

And just to clarify, this is really the only reason why the What If example was referenced in the first place. It's the only thing that serves as a recent example of a fight between the two. It's fine that you don't hold validity to that, you don't have to, but doesn't it make you think?
Similarly, Sabretooth outfought Iron Fist when IF couldn't collect his chi adequately, IF didn't need his chi to beat Sabes the first or second time they fought when Sabretooth was an underdeveloped character with NO SKILL, after being developed into the opposite he railed through Danny... Do you or don't you think the same principle might apply with Wolverine?

Originally posted by jinzin
I'll honestly have to go back to look at how the dragon hit him as I don't remember. Again, if he was injured I would have thought that Iron Fist would have said so at some point AT ALL during the run, I don't remember him attributing ANYTHING to being weaker/wounded, etc. so I'm not entirely sure that we can say he was wounded while fighting Junzo either. I'll go back and check that out though.

I dont think he saying that hes injured hes just using common sense. IF was depowered and got hit in the head by a big dragon. common sense indicates that if he wakes up from that hes not going to be 100 percent.

Hell when Wolverine got Koed by Namor you assumed that the damage that he took previoulsy played into the fact that he got Koed. Did you need Wolverine to say anything? Hell when Wolverine got knocked out by a bullet to the head by Deadpool you said that the damage he took was a factor in him getting Koed. Did Wolverine say anything about his HF not being his best or did you deduce it?

Wow now all of a sudden IF needs to say hes not at his best for it to be true. Keep it up.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont think he saying that hes injured hes just using common sense. IF was depowered and got hit in the head by a big dragon. common sense indicates that if he wakes up from that hes not going to be 100 percent.

Hell when Wolverine got Koed by Namor you assumed that the damage that he took previoulsy played into the fact that he got Koed. Did you need Wolverine to say anything? Hell when Wolverine got knocked out by a bullet to the head by Deadpool you said that the damage he took was a factor in him getting Koed. Did Wolverine say anything about his HF not being his best or did you deduce it?

Wow now all of a sudden IF needs to say hes not at his best for it to be true. Keep it up.
Difference between a guy who can roll with class 100 punches getting hit by a giant lizard and a guy getting incinerated to the skeleton, his deminishment being referenced in print on panel afterwards. Stop playing dumb troll.

As to DP no I didn't. I've only ever stated that all the damage he took was a display of his damage soak ability being>Bullets or superior to classic pre fatal attractions Logan. One bullet to the brain should put Logan down for a bit, regardless of previous damage taken.. Something else I've consistently stated in recent months.


You're an idiot.

Jinzin, the dragon swoops down and whacks him. Simple as that. I told you Danny didn't try to defend himself, so reading rolling with the blow into the scene takes your assumptions two steps too far from the plain presentation of the comics. The comic pretty much ends with that and opens with him waking up, captured in a dungeon. Wolverine, Sabretooth, etc. would wake up without any injuries. Depowered Iron Fist with no chi reduced to a mere human? Not so much.

Wolverine suffered from having no popularity in an Iron Fist comic? Chris Claremont and John Bryne were the creators of those Iron Fist comics and they were doing that and Uncanny X-Men concurrently. The 'Phoenix Saga' was ramping up and Wolverine was being showcased in those books. If anybody were going to portray the X-Men correctly, it would be the creative team that first made Wolverine popular. Especially since Byrne was Canadian. Wolverine was not as underdeveloped as you might think and he wasn't the victim of sloppy writing. I'd take Chris Claremont/John Byrne's version of the fight over your objections any day. So no, I don't think his "underdeveloped-ness" played a significant role in the fight.

Was it a factor? Perhaps. But you believe it to be such an intrinsic factor, that you would readily dismiss the canon fight entirely. In fact, you want to dismiss it so entirely that you actually would take a non-canon What If comic as being more valid. I don't agree at all. It doesn't take me more than half a second to disagree with that conclusion. If I flipped that kind of logic on you, you'd scream bloody murder and you'd be right to. And what you're ignoring as well, was this run by Claremont and Byrne was basically the first 15 solo issues Rand ever had. And most of his better feats that are contained in the Iron Fist respect thread come from after this run from the much longer Power Man and Iron Fist run. So if you want to really play this weak "underdeveloped-ness" card, you better recognize that it applies to Iron Fist even moreso. Which pretty much makes your reasoning moot.

It definitely does not play second fiddle to a non-canon What If story. Is it the end-all be-all between the two of them? No. We both know that Wolverine's become more skilled since that fight. But so has Iron Fist. A rematch today where Iron Fist isn't recovering or depowered, would be interesting.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Look at the scans. Wolverine gets stabbed in the foot and he cries out in pain, the other scan shows him getting stabbed in the arm and clearly reacting to the pain.

With his his HF he wouldnt have flinched, You really have no proof of that. him flinching to pain or not is no indication of how much pain he feels. A high pain threshhold does NOT mean that you DON'T feel the pain, it means you can bear with it more.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
he also cries out in pain when he got stabbed through the foot by Sabretooth...compare that to when he has the HF...Jesus! He's grunted in pain when getting stabbed when he has the healing factor plenty of times. You have ANY scans that ACTUALLY support your claims or is this just more of your asshated idiotic trolling? He doesn't say "Oh if I had my healing factor I wouldn't be feeling this." Obviously when he's fully healed up again he'll only be feeling the terrible pain from fighting off the adamantium poisoning and getting sliced on those razor sharp blades embedded in his arms. But it doesn't cut down on how much pain he feels. The only thing that contradicts ALL of the scans is your idiotic claims and veiws.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You dont have any of examples of Wolverine contradicting my scans. That shows that Wolverine can take pain without his HF but it doesnt contradict that its hurts more without it. It doesn't prove that it hurts more without it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
One of those scans shows him taking electrical damage hell Emma Frost has been shoccked by a bloodlusted storm and just because they can take electrical damage does not mean they can cope with edged damage more. Because both are two different types of pain.. one is an chemica;l-electrical signal traveling along your nervous system the other is a chemical-electrical signal traveling along your nervous system.

OH RIGHT! I forgot that you were Alf, the guy who keeps consistantly getting owned in debates when it comes to anatomy because you know jack shit about ... well anything really. Go ahead and keep making stupid ass arguments. I want to see if there's a limit to your ignorance or if your the anti-einstien.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again the Rogue example simply shows that she still can feel pain with the HF. If you have examples with Rogue with and without HF with the claws and you compare her reaction then you have proof, until then you're just making assumptions. No, YOU are the one making ASS-U-mptions. We're the ones that are reading what is ON PANEL.. you however if you don't like it or if it contradcits you making an ass out of yourself... and by that I mean assumptions, then you discard it see?:

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Contradicts the other examples ive gven so its thrown out as evidence.

You don't like it you discard it, because you're nothing but a troll.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again I could be wrong but Rogue did not even have all of Wolverines powers at the same time, but I would need to check up on that. See? You're the one who isn't satisfied with what's ON PANEL and making assumptions about things, and if you don't like it, you give it the boot. EVEN when its consistent with everything but your own ass hatted assumptions.

If anything the example you posted should be discarded as stupid because that was NOT the first time he'd been depowered... I seem to recall him being around leech and getting his powers removed by Wipeout back in the late 70s and early 80s. Hell, when he had his powers wiped out and was laying there bleeding to death he'd know... but the writer didn't do the research and wrote something that ignored the characters history. So guess what? That can be written off under the forum rules under the No PIS rule. That is if we're to discard any feats.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Contradicts the other examples ive gven so its thrown out as evidence.

P.S. Snoop is just fed up with your excuses. I mean when you come up with stuff like Wolverine grrd and thus he paused allowing Blade to hit him, you're just being completely baised and unfair. Have some shame.
I'm not going to continue to argue the same points over and over with you, the whole reason you replied was to discredit Logan's skill, and you did a piss poor job. When it comes to Wolverine's healing factor.
It doesn't help with the pain, Wolverine has flat out said this on at least half a dozen occasions.

Pain Tolerance is: The attribute of being able to cope with pain and function in spite of it...

That's exactly what Logan exibited in your scans. He got stabbed in the foot and cut the rope dropping Deathstrike. He got cut in the face, and kicked her 10 feet back. He's displaying pain tolerance right there...

What happened after that was a mix of Adamantium poisoning, death spores, and blood loss all at work and he STILL fights and beats Sabretooth later on...
Those scans don't support you, they contradict you.

Dismissing that last scan completely just proves to me exactly what you'll do to disard everything Logan does that's impressive... ANYTHING.
Instead of arguing around the subject you've reverted to straight up ignoring it. So be it. If you're going to ignore evidence please stop responding to my posts. It's annoying as hell.

P.S. Wolverine's claws come out at 130-160 miles an hour, he moves/reacts at the speed of thought, figure it out for yourself.

Originally posted by jinzin
Difference between a guy who can roll with class 100 punches getting hit by a giant lizard and a guy getting incinerated to the skeleton, his deminishment being referenced in print on panel afterwards. Stop playing dumb troll.

Well let let see he already told you he didn't roll with it because he thought the dragon was friendly, fail.

Originally posted by jinzin

As to DP no I didn't.

*sigh* Yeah you did.


Originally posted by jinzin
DP has an HF, Wolverine took tons of damage already, and Wolverine had multiples of oppurtunities to take DP down.


Originally posted by jinzin

I've only ever stated that all the damage he took was a display of his damage soak ability being>Bullets or superior to classic pre fatal attractions Logan. One bullet to the brain should put Logan down for a bit, regardless of previous damage taken.. Something else I've consistently stated in recent months.

You're an idiot.

Yeah ok lets recap. First of all you tried to twist things around by saying that IF wasnt injured because he didnt say he was, when you have deduced that Wolverine HF was depleted without him saying so.

You stated that you didnt mention that the damage he had already taken was a factor in him getting Koed with DP when you did and even if you didnt you blantantly said this was a factor when Wolverine fought Namor in the Civil War.

Now you're trying to twist things around by saying that IF rolled with it....keep on stretching.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You really have no proof of that. him flinching to pain or not is no indication of how much pain he feels. A high pain threshhold does NOT mean that you DON'T feel the pain, it means you can bear with it more.


Yes I know and you havent proven anything.

Originally posted by Creshosk

He's grunted in pain when getting stabbed when he has the healing factor plenty of times. You have ANY scans that ACTUALLY support your claims or is this just more of your asshated idiotic trolling? He doesn't say "Oh if I had my healing factor I wouldn't be feeling this." Obviously when he's fully healed up again he'll only be feeling the terrible pain from fighting off the adamantium poisoning and getting sliced on those razor sharp blades embedded in his arms. But it doesn't cut down on how much pain he feels. The only thing that contradicts ALL of the scans is your idiotic claims and veiws.

LOL grunting in pain is the same as crying out in pain???? LOL clearly if you cry out in pain its more painful.

Originally posted by Creshosk

It doesn't prove that it hurts more without it.


Because both are two different types of pain.. one is an chemica;l-electrical signal traveling along your nervous system the other is a chemical-electrical signal traveling along your nervous system.

OH RIGHT! I forgot that you were Alf, the guy who keeps consistantly getting owned in debates when it comes to anatomy because you know jack shit about ... well anything really. Go ahead and keep making stupid ass arguments. I want to see if there's a limit to your ignorance or if your the anti-einstien.

No, YOU are the one making ASS-U-mptions. We're the ones that are reading what is ON PANEL.. you however if you don't like it or if it contradcits you making an ass out of yourself... and by that I mean assumptions, then you discard it see?:



You don't like it you discard it, because you're nothing but a troll.

See? You're the one who isn't satisfied with what's ON PANEL and making assumptions about things, and if you don't like it, you give it the boot. EVEN when its consistent with everything but your own ass hatted assumptions.

If anything the example you posted should be discarded as stupid because that was NOT the first time he'd been depowered... I seem to recall him being around leech and getting his powers removed by Wipeout back in the late 70s and early 80s. Hell, when he had his powers wiped out and was laying there bleeding to death he'd know... but the writer didn't do the research and wrote something that ignored the characters history. So guess what? That can be written off under the forum rules under the No PIS rule. That is if we're to discard any feats.

I can be assed you clearly are not listening.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not going to continue to argue the same points over and over with you, the whole reason you replied was to discredit Logan's skill, and you did a piss poor job. When it comes to Wolverine's healing factor.
It doesn't help with the pain, Wolverine has flat out said this on at least half a dozen occasions.

Pain Tolerance is: The attribute of being able to cope with pain and function in spite of it...

That's exactly what Logan exibited in your scans. He got stabbed in the foot and cut the rope dropping Deathstrike. He got cut in the face, and kicked her 10 feet back. He's displaying pain tolerance right there...

What happened after that was a mix of Adamantium poisoning, death spores, and blood loss all at work and he STILL fights and beats Sabretooth later on...
Those scans don't support you, they contradict you.

Dismissing that last scan completely just proves to me exactly what you'll do to disard everything Logan does that's impressive... ANYTHING.
Instead of arguing around the subject you've reverted to straight up ignoring it. So be it. If you're going to ignore evidence please stop responding to my posts. It's annoying as hell.

P.S. Wolverine's claws come out at 130-160 miles an hour, he moves/reacts at the speed of thought, figure it out for yourself.

* shrug* You're not listening but I think ive had enough I'll just watch you twist things around with DumbGo then.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well let let see he already told you he didn't roll with it because he thought the dragon was friendly, fail. As I stated I'll take another look.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* Yeah you did.


That has nothing to do with him going down to the bullet and everything to do with DP getting him in position for the bullet to work.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah ok lets recap. First of all you tried to twist things around by saying that IF wasnt injured because he didnt say he was, when you have deduced that Wolverine HF was depleted without him saying so.
I don't know how many times this has to be pointed out to you: HE DID SAY SO.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You stated that you didnt mention that the damage he had already taken was a factor in him getting Koed with DP when you did and even if you didnt you blantantly said this was a factor when Wolverine fought Namor in the Civil War.
No I didn't. you just suck at reading comprehension.

With Civil War.. it WAS stated.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Now you're trying to twist things around by saying that IF rolled with it....keep on stretching.
I didn't even say that he did roll with it, I said that there's a difference between a guy who can do something like that getting hit and someone being incinerated to a skeleton. how do you not see that?

Originally posted by jinzin
As I stated I'll take another look.

You do that.


Originally posted by jinzin


That has nothing to do with him going down to the bullet and everything to do with DP getting him in position for the bullet to work.

*sigh* You stated there he had already been damaged thus implying that was a reason why he got Koed by the bullet.


Originally posted by jinzin

I don't know how many times this has to be pointed out to you: HE DID SAY SO.

Im not talking about civil war in this example.

Originally posted by jinzin

No I didn't. you just suck at reading comprehension.

With Civil War.. it WAS stated.

Wasnt stated in the DP example and you implied that the damage he took previoulsy affect him getting Koed.


Originally posted by jinzin

I didn't even say that he did roll with it, I said that there's a difference between a guy who can do something like that getting hit and someone being incinerated to a skeleton. how do you not see that?

Obvoulsy the statement implies that you were saying he rolled with it, DumbGo got that impression as well. Don't try to twist stuff around.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well let let see he already told you he didn't roll with it because he thought the dragon was friendly, fail.



*sigh* Yeah you did.







Yeah ok lets recap. First of all you tried to twist things around by saying that IF wasnt injured because he didnt say he was, when you have deduced that Wolverine HF was depleted without him saying so.

You stated that you didnt mention that the damage he had already taken was a factor in him getting Koed with DP when you did and even if you didnt you blantantly said this was a factor when Wolverine fought Namor in the Civil War.

Now you're trying to twist things around by saying that IF rolled with it....keep on stretching.



Yes I know and you havent proven anything.



LOL grunting in pain is the same as crying out in pain???? LOL clearly if you cry out in pain its more painful.



I can be assed you clearly are not listening.



* shrug* You're not listening but I think ive had enough I'll just watch you twist things around with DumbGo then. Of course I'm not going to listen to bullshit lies and trolling. Looks like you're not going to even try and debate.

You've failed to prove anything, you've failed to listen, and the only thing you've succeeded at is trolling.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Of course I'm not going to listen to bullshit lies and trolling. Looks like you're not going to even try and debate.

You've failed to prove anything, you've failed to listen, and the only thing you've succeeded at is trolling.

Ok lets try this again......whos more likely to be feeling more pain the person grunting or the person crying out in pain?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You do that.




*sigh* You stated there he had already been damaged thus implying that was a reason why he got Koed by the bullet.




Im not talking about civil war in this example.



Wasnt stated in the DP example and you implied that the damage he took previoulsy affect him getting Koed.




Obvoulsy the statement implies that you were saying he rolled with it, DumbGo got that impression as well. Don't try to twist stuff around. Wow, if anyone ever needed a post that proves that Phantom Zone is barely literate, here you go.

Oh, and don't accuse Jinzin of being a hypocrite, that makes you an even bigger hypocrite since you're a hypocrite for twisting stuff around (probebly sue to PIS poor reading comprehension) and then telling others not to.

So you going to debate some time today or just troll?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok lets try this again......whos more likely to be feeling more pain the person grunting or the person crying out in pain? False dilemma fallacy.

Wow that was easy. Look, that's the problem with your logic. Right there.

http://skepdic.com/falsedilemma.html


This is where I call you a name to insult you, you sigh and then leave the thread thereby stopping your trolling.

Originally posted by Creshosk
False dilemma fallacy.

Wow that was easy. Look, that's the problem with your logic. Right there.

http://skepdic.com/falsedilemma.html


This is where I call you a name to insult you, you sigh and then leave the thread thereby stopping your trolling.

*sigh* I know what you would have said anyway, you would have just found some exceptions were it did not apply.

I'd like to point out that Wolverine likely feels more pain than most streets BECAUSE of his healing factor. All the street level MA's would have gone through the process of deadening the nerves in the areas of their bodies used for striking, something that Wolverine's healing factor prevents. He might feel the damage for less time, but he almost certainly feels more of it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* I know what you would have said anyway, you would have just found some exceptions were it did not apply.


Okay... I'm trying really hard not to insult you. But a person's reaction does not indicate how much pain they feel.

A person with a low pain threshold, some one whom cannot take much pain, is more likely to cry out to lower levels of pain.
A person with a higher paing threshold, someone whom can take alot of pain, is more likely to cry out at higher levels of pain.

The amount of pain felt has no bearing on how much pain a person can take. A seasoned soldier might take a bullet and just grunt. A spoiled rich girl might break a nail and cry out.

Which do you think hurts more? Chipping a nail or being shot? Now imagine that spoiled rich girl being shot, and the seasoned soldier chipping a nail.

How do you think they'll react? I imagine that they feel the same amount of pain from being shot and the same amount of pain from chipping a nail.

Reactions do NOT indicate how much pain you feel. Hell lets look at emotional pain. In our society these days boys toughen themselves up and learn not to cry. Whom is more likely to dry when a loved one dies? The grown man or the grown woman?

Does this mean that the grown man is NOT feeling as much pain, simply because the woman is allowed to cry?

If you say yes, then not only are you an idiot but you're also an insensitive prick.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'd like to point out that Wolverine likely feels more pain than most streets BECAUSE of his healing factor. All the street level MA's would have gone through the process of deadening the nerves in the areas of their bodies used for striking, something that Wolverine's healing factor prevents. He might feel the damage for less time, but he almost certainly feels more of it.

Im still wondering why Wolverine cried out in pain. There are two examples of him doing this, and another examples where LD stabs him in the arm and you can clearly see from the reaction on his face that it hurt more than normal.

Compare that to how he dealt with shingens sword strikes and when Crossbones unloaded a clip into him. Logically it might hurt more but the evidence does not prove it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im still wondering why Wolverine cried out in pain. There are two examples of him doing this, and another examples where LD stabs him in the arm and you can clearly see from the reaction on his face that it hurt more than normal.More than normal? What's normal? If I stab you through the arm do you think that will hurt more than if I DIDN'T stab you through the arm?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Compare that to how he dealt with shingens sword strikes and when Crossbones unloaded a clip into him. Logically it might hurt more but the evidence does not prove it. Um no... Please don't try to use words like logically when you're clearly incapable of thinking logically. Its rather insulting.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im still wondering why Wolverine cried out in pain. There are two examples of him doing this, and another examples where LD stabs him in the arm and you can clearly see from the reaction on his face that it hurt more than normal.

Compare that to how he dealt with shingens sword strikes and when Crossbones unloaded a clip into him. Logically it might hurt more but the evidence does not prove it.

When she stabbed him in the foot and he said ARGH?

...

...

...

You are reading into things far to much. I've said "argh" when I've stubbed my toe... it doesn't mean it hurt that much. Cyring out in pain, and making a noise, aren't exactly the same thing.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Okay... I'm trying really hard not to insult you. But a person's reaction does not indicate how much pain they feel.

A person with a low pain threshold, some one whom cannot take much pain, is more likely to cry out to lower levels of pain.
A person with a higher paing threshold, someone whom can take alot of pain, is more likely to cry out at higher levels of pain.

The amount of pain felt has no bearing on how much pain a person can take. A seasoned soldier might take a bullet and just grunt. A spoiled rich girl might break a nail and cry out.

Which do you think hurts more? Chipping a nail or being shot? Now imagine that spoiled rich girl being shot, and the seasoned soldier chipping a nail.

How do you think they'll react? I imagine that they feel the same amount of pain from being shot and the same amount of pain from chipping a nail.

A seasoned soldier would still cry out at highier levels of pain it would just take more. That contradicts nothing I said.

Originally posted by Creshosk

Reactions do NOT indicate how much pain you feel. Hell lets look at emotional pain. In our society these days boys toughen themselves up and learn not to cry. Whom is more likely to dry when a loved one dies? The grown man or the grown woman?

Does this mean that the grown man is NOT feeling as much pain, simply because the woman is allowed to cry?

If you say yes, then not only are you an idiot but you're also an insensitive prick.


Nope, but that still doesnt change the fact that if he got hurt and he cried out in pain it would be an indication of the level of suffering he is experiencing and the fact that bereavement doesn't make him cry is irrelevant.

Wolverine was crying out in pain without his HF, when he has his HF he reacts better to it. Wolverine was in more pain without his HF.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
When she stabbed him in the foot and he said ARGH?

...

...

...

You are reading into things far to much. I've said "argh" when I've stubbed my toe... it doesn't mean it hurt that much. Cyring out in pain, and making a noise, aren't exactly the same thing. He just doesn't get that, how a person reacts is not an indicator of how much pain the person feels.

Punch a spoiled brat in the face, they'll whine and cry about it.
Punch a seasoned soldier in the face and ... they'll probably beat the shit out of you.

Does it mean that the spoiled brat felt more pain than the soldier?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jinzin, the dragon swoops down and whacks him. Simple as that. I told you Danny didn't try to defend himself, so reading rolling with the blow into the scene takes your assumptions two steps too far from the plain presentation of the comics. The comic pretty much ends with that and opens with him waking up, captured in a dungeon. Wolverine, Sabretooth, etc. would wake up without any injuries. Depowered Iron Fist with no chi reduced to a mere human? Not so much.

Wolverine suffered from having no popularity in an Iron Fist comic? Chris Claremont and John Bryne were the creators of those Iron Fist comics and they were doing that and Uncanny X-Men concurrently. The 'Phoenix Saga' was ramping up and Wolverine was being showcased in those books. If anybody were going to portray the X-Men correctly, it would be the creative team that first made Wolverine popular. Especially since Byrne was Canadian. Wolverine was not as underdeveloped as you might think and he wasn't the victim of sloppy writing. I'd take Chris Claremont/John Byrne's version of the fight over your objections any day. So no, I don't think his "underdeveloped-ness" played a significant role in the fight.

Was it a factor? Perhaps. But you believe it to be such an intrinsic factor, that you would readily dismiss the canon fight entirely. In fact, you want to dismiss it so entirely that you actually would take a non-canon What If comic as being more valid. I don't agree at all. It doesn't take me more than half a second to disagree with that conclusion. If I flipped that kind of logic on you, you'd scream bloody murder and you'd be right to. And what you're ignoring as well, was this run by Claremont and Byrne was basically the first 15 solo issues Rand ever had. And most of his better feats that are contained in the Iron Fist respect thread come from after this run from the much longer Power Man and Iron Fist run. So if you want to really play this weak "underdeveloped-ness" card, you better recognize that it applies to Iron Fist even moreso. Which pretty much makes your reasoning moot.

It definitely does not play second fiddle to a non-canon What If story. Is it the end-all be-all between the two of them? No. We both know that Wolverine's become more skilled since that fight. But so has Iron Fist. A rematch today where Iron Fist isn't recovering or depowered, would be interesting.

I'm not discarding the fight though.
I've never once regarded it as PIS, nor have I refuted that Wolverine was handled in that fight to a fair degree.
I simply don't think that it proves: Wolverine has no/little fighting skill or:
Iron Fist> Wolverine to a legitimate degree.

Iron Fist was better than Wolverine THAT DAY in THAT FIGHT. I think that's perfectly acceptable.
Inclusive of Wolverine's and IF's entire history, Iron Fist is a good enough fighter to keep Wolverine at bay for a bit as evidenced by his ability to stalemate DD and keep pace with Cap for a few.
But that fight ALSO isn't the deciding factor on Wolverine's skill when it doesn't come close to representing his standard majority nevermind his high end feats.
Since then, Wolverine has beaten those as skilled as Iron Fist, more skilled than Iron Fist and everything in between.
It simply stands to reason that the fight holds little validity over fleshed out versions of the characters. Otherwise Sabretooth would be a character who has NO skill.
We know that's not the case these days.

If you think that underdevelopment had nothing to do with the fight, that's your perogative, but I personally think you have to be under some fairly decent bit of denial to really believe that. And don't confuse points here, high feats and low feats for Fist are next to irrelivent for that fight, what's important is characterization...

By issue 15 Iron Fists skills were set, his powers were set, his history was explored to a degree. The whole point behind his character was to have him be that of a skilled fighter.
Wolverine on the other hand: His powers were not set, his skill not explored, his history completely unknown. The whole point of his character was to be small, fast, and ferocious.

As for character conception: Byrne has stated that had he kept writing Wolverine, Logan'd been as strong and fast as Spiderman, and mutated into a human from an actual Wolverine.
Claremont didn't like Wolverine when he started writing him, it's the whole reason why Claremont began the conception of turning Wolverine into a samurai spirited warrior to begin with.

Taking their version of the fight is one thing, and hell, I don't even have a problem with that, I didn't ignore what took place during the fight. But what about characterizations?... I would hope my opinion concerning such would be more valid than theirs was at that point given that I have 30 decades of information over their interpretation who was still yet to debut a history, a healing factor, and was intended to be Sabretooth's son.

Wolverine fought with more skill after that fight, he's fought with more skill in retcons before that fight (both after his character developed) the fights stands as a little hiccup in his long running history of owning asses but it's not indicative of his skill as we know it today.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
A seasoned soldier would still cry out at highier levels of pain it would just take more. That contradicts nothing I said.




Nope, but that still doesnt change the fact that if he got hurt and he cried out in pain it would be an indication of the level of suffering he is experiencing No, it wouldn't.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and the fact that bereavement doesn't make him cry is irrelevant. So, anything that proves you wrong is irrelevant. Nice.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wolverine was crying out in pain without his HF, when he has his HF he reacts better to it. Wolverine was in more pain without his HF. Again bullshit.

The way a person reacts does NOT indicate the amount of pain they're in, you're a gullible idiot if you truly believe that.

Now we get another English lesson, its called "milking it". Often times a person, more than likely a child, will "milk" an event that caused them pain, because of the attention that they received. Sometimes people will pretend to be in pain and react like they are in order to prolong the reaction they get from their acting. So while a perfectly healthy person might be feeling no pain whatsoever they might act like they're in excruciating agony.

The moral of the story? How a person reacts is NOT an indicator of how much pain they feel.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
When she stabbed him in the foot and he said ARGH?

...

...

...

You are reading into things far to much. I've said "argh" when I've stubbed my toe... it doesn't mean it hurt that much. Cyring out in pain, and making a noise, aren't exactly the same thing.

Ok lets say you had a HF you stubbed your toe and you didnt say argh and then I take it away and you do? What am I supposed to think, im obvoulsy going to think it hurts more.

A person may cry out in pain but not be in that much pain but it still and indication of pain. If he takes worse damage than that with his HF and doesnt even flinch he clearly is able to cope with the pain better.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
A seasoned soldier would still cry out at highier levels of pain it would just take more. That contradicts nothing I said.




Nope, but that still doesnt change the fact that if he got hurt and he cried out in pain it would be an indication of the level of suffering he is experiencing and the fact that bereavement doesn't make him cry is irrelevant.

Wolverine was crying out in pain without his HF, when he has his HF he reacts better to it. Wolverine was in more pain without his HF.

Once again...

Because he said "ARGH"?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* You stated there he had already been damaged thus implying that was a reason why he got Koed by the bullet.
Quote the posts leading into that. I know what I was thinking and stating better than you do. I understand context better than you do. I was stating the reasons that make that example irrelivent for Punisher being able to do the same. Punisher would have to have a HF. He'd have to have DP's damage soak, and he'd have to get past all the damage Wolverine can take up to that point to draw him in effectively to shoot him in the brain.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im not talking about civil war in this example.
Then what ARE you talking about?

You limited your examples to the Namor fight and the DP fight. One's a misinterpretation/misrepresentation, the other is an ignorance to printed proof that contradicts you.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wasnt stated in the DP example and you implied that the damage he took previoulsy affect him getting Koed.
From a bullet to the brain? No I didn't.. I've stated a bajillion times that a bullet to the brain could/should put Logan down for a moment. You need to learn how to interpret things correctly.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Obvoulsy the statement implies that you were saying he rolled with it, DumbGo got that impression as well. Don't try to twist stuff around. "A guy who can roll with class 100 punches"... I made the statement to imply that IF has a decent degree of reaction speed as well as durability. There's no shadow of a doubt when someone's reduced to a skeleton.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Once again...

Because he said "ARGH"?


Answer the question please.

Originally posted by Creshosk
He just doesn't get that, how a person reacts is not an indicator of how much pain the person feels.

Punch a spoiled brat in the face, they'll whine and cry about it.
Punch a seasoned soldier in the face and ... they'll probably beat the shit out of you.

Does it mean that the spoiled brat felt more pain than the soldier?

Irrelevant how the soldier or the brat cope with pain is not the issue. A seasoned soldier maybe able to take a punch in the face but if you wanted him to cry out in pain it would be alot harder. Just because the boy cries out in pain from less is neither here nor there.


We are dealing with ones person ability to deal with pain not comparing it with anybody elses.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok lets say you had a HF you stubbed your toe and you didnt say argh and then I take it away and you do? What am I supposed to think, im obvoulsy going to think it hurts more.

What if I had a healing factor stub my toe and say argh and then you took it away and I didn't say argh when I stub my toe?

Stupid hypotheticals don't prove anything.

A person may cry out in pain but not be in that much pain but it still and indication of pain. Or you know not.

OW! ****! I hurt so bad even though nothing happened. Of course then again dealing with your stupid incorrect ideas hurts mentally.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
If he takes worse damage than that with his HF and doesnt even flinch he clearly is able to cope with the pain better. You're really grasping at straws you know that?

ALF his ability to "deal with it" better is because he's not being dragged down by Adamantium poisoning, deathspores, bleeding out through wounds as well as his claws (sheathed or unsheathed). It's pretty simple. It's been stated repeatedly that his HF doesn't help pain. He said it makes pain WORSE, common sense like Srank stated dictates the same.

EDIT: Decided this didn't need to be brought up for discussion.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Answer the question please.



Irrelevant how the soldier or the brat cope with pain is not the issue.b See? Once again the scenerio proves you wrong and you say its irrelvant... Do'nt you get it? How many times do people have to tell you?

How a person reacts is no indication of how much they hurt.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
A seasoned soldier maybe able to take a punch in the face but if you wanted him to cry out in pain it would be alot harder. So in order to get a person with a higher pain threshold to react you have to INCREASE the pain?

What would happen if you did that to the spoiled brat?

Do you know anything about the scientific process of keeping variables equal on both sides of the equation?

Do you even READ your posts?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Just because the boy cries out in pain from less is neither here nor there. Or its an indicator that the amount of pain a person feels is NOT an indicator of how much pain they feel.

But that's just your style isn't it kotex? Don't like it? It proves you wrong? Just ignore it!

Hell that's what president Bush does. And we all know how smart he is!


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
We are dealing with ones person ability to deal with pain not comparing it with anybody elses. OR... we're using examples to show that you're wrong about a person reacting indicates how much pain they feel.

Originally posted by Creshosk
See? Once again the scenerio proves you wrong and you say its irrelvant... Do'nt you get it? How many times do people have to tell you?

How a person reacts is no indication of how much they hurt.

So in order to get a person with a higher pain threshold to react you have to INCREASE the pain?

What would happen if you did that to the spoiled brat?

Do you know anything about the scientific process of keeping variables equal on both sides of the equation?

Do you even READ your posts?

Or its an indicator that the amount of pain a person feels is NOT an indicator of how much pain they feel.

But that's just your style isn't it kotex? Don't like it? It proves you wrong? Just ignore it!

Hell that's what president Bush does. And we all know how smart he is!


OR... we're using examples to show that you're wrong about a person reacting indicates how much pain they feel.

Nah you're example is rubbish go away.

pr1983

claiming logan doesnt feel pain due to his healing factor is ludicrous, considering the amount of evidence that shows definitively that the healing itself can at times hurt almost as much as the injury itself...

seriously.

Originally posted by Raoul
pr1983

claiming logan doesnt feel pain due to his healing factor is ludicrous, considering the amount of evidence that shows definitively that the healing itself can at times hurt almost as much as the injury itself...

seriously.

Talking to me?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Talking to me?

aye, unless i missed the point you were trying to make...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well if he was in shock that explains why. Wolverine isnt in shock when he gets wounded hell ive even heard about people in the 7/7 bombings who said they lost limbs but all they did is attach it back to there body, its like they didnt feel any pain.




Nah you're example is rubbish go away. Translation: "I can't argue against your point properly, but I'm not done trolling. Quit proving me wrong."

My examples prove you wrong, and you can't deal with them. I've also learned that "irrelevant" is Alf-ese also means "It proves me wrong."

Originally posted by Raoul
aye, unless i missed the point you were trying to make...

Yeah you did. *shrug* Im not arguing that Wolverine HF negates pain im arguing that it helps him cope with it better.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah you did. *shrug* Im not arguing that Wolverine HF negates pain im arguing that it helps him cope with it better. Which it doesn't.

How does something that hurts you help you cope with being hurt?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Translation: "I can't argue against your point properly, but I'm not done trolling. Quit proving me wrong."

My examples prove you wrong, and you can't deal with them. I've also learned that "irrelevant" is Alf-ese also means "It proves me wrong."

Anyway I guess when somebody is being tortured and they cry out in pain that no indication of how much pain they are suffering. :/

Originally posted by Creshosk
Which it doesn't.

How does something that hurts you help you cope with being hurt?

Already given my reasons.

Sorry was trying to edit another post.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway I guess when somebody is being tortured and they cry out in pain that no indication of how much pain they are suffering. :/ That's right, because some people whom are tortured under the same exact methods don't cry out. Does that mean that the one whom doesn't cry out and was tortured under the same methods feels less pain than the person who cries out?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Already given my reasons. Oh yeah.. I remember what your reasons are.

PZ's reasons: *discards evidence that proves PZ wrong*

Those are bloody brilliant let me tell you.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah you did. *shrug* Im not arguing that Wolverine HF negates pain im arguing that it helps him cope with it better.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Which it doesn't.

How does something that hurts you help you cope with being hurt?

cresh got it spot on...

Originally posted by Creshosk
That's right, because some people whom are tortured under the same exact methods don't cry out. Does that mean that the one whom doesn't cry out and was tortured under the same methods feels less pain than the person who cries out?


Again its irrelevant even if hes doesnt feel less pain hes not able to cope with as well as the other guy and he cries of pain indicate this. The person with the lower pain threshold would probably pass out before the toughier guy as well.

If the stronger guy cried out in pain this would indicate that hes not coping with it so well.

Originally posted by Raoul
cresh got it spot on...

I dont think he has because he needs to prove that his HF does. If he gets stabbed in the foot and goes cries out in pain without a HF...and with his HF gets stabbed through the stomache and sliced up and shows hardly any reaction im obvosuly going to think that his HF helps him cope with it.

Hell he got a clip unloaded into him by Crossbones and he didnt even move. Bullets dont just do edged damage they're hot as well, that most likely hurts more than getting stabbed in the foot.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again its irrelevant even if hes doesnt feel less pain hes not able to cope with as well as the other guy and he cries of pain indicate this. The person with the lower pain threshold would probably pass out before the toughier guy as well.

If the stronger guy cried out in pain this would indicate that hes not coping with it so well. Which still goes to show that how a person reacts is NOT an indication of how much pain they feel.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

People sometimes fake pain. Some people don't react to pain. How a person reacts does not indicate how much pain they feel.

You can keep claiming things that prove this, things that prove you wrong, are irrelevant. But that's a pretty pathetic dodge and a copout.

Just accept facts: The comics contradict what you're saying. You are wrong.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont think he has because he needs to prove that his HF does. I don't have to prove what YOU'RE claiming. the burden of proof is on your shoulders, and seeing as how it says the exact opposite of what you claim in the comics you CAN'T prove your claims.

All you're doing is trolling and spamming at this point in time.


The comics indicate the opposite of what you claim. Deal with it. You're wrong about the character.

Edit:
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9340/mwolverinepainxj8.jpg

Originally posted by Creshosk
Which still goes to show that how a person reacts is NOT an indication of how much pain they feel.

Look im aware that people can be in pain and not react but that still doesnt change the fact that crying out is an indication of ability to cope with pain.

Also pain is relative. A person may be experiencing the samething as somebody but if he feels hes in more pain then he is, that person with a lower pain threshold may also pass out.

We know that Wolverine can take alot of punishment, has pervioulsy taken pain and not reacted to it, if he takes far less and reacts to that implies hes not able to cope with it so well

Originally posted by Creshosk

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

People sometimes fake pain. Some people don't react to pain. How a person reacts does not indicate how much pain they feel.

You can keep claiming things that prove this, things that prove you wrong, are irrelevant. But that's a pretty pathetic dodge and a copout.

Just accept facts: The comics contradict what you're saying. You are wrong.

Irrelevant.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I don't have to prove what YOU'RE claiming. the burden of proof is on your shoulders, and seeing as how it says the exact opposite of what you claim in the comics you CAN'T prove your claims.

All you're doing is trolling and spamming at this point in time.


The comics indicate the opposite of what you claim. Deal with it. You're wrong about the character.

Edit:
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9340/mwolverinepainxj8.jpg

Im not posting my scans again...ok?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont think he has because he needs to prove that his HF does. If he gets stabbed in the foot and goes cries out in pain without a HF...and with his HF gets stabbed through the stomache and sliced up and shows hardly any reaction im obvosuly going to think that his HF helps him cope with it.

Hell he got a clip unloaded into him by Crossbones and he didnt even move. Bullets dont just do edged damage they're hot as well, that most likely hurts more than getting stabbed in the foot. Originally posted by jinzin
ALF his ability to "deal with it" better is because he's not being dragged down by Adamantium poisoning, deathspores, bleeding out through wounds as well as his claws (sheathed or unsheathed). It's pretty simple. It's been stated repeatedly that his HF doesn't help pain. He said it makes pain WORSE, common sense like Srank stated dictates the same.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Look im aware that people can be in pain and not react but that still doesnt change the fact that crying out is an indication of ability to cope with pain. So the people who fake being in pain, and the spoiled brats really ARE in the amount of pain they indicate?

By the gods you're a gullible one.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Also pain is relative. A person may be experiencing the samething as somebody but if he feels hes in more pain then he is, that person with a lower pain threshold may also pass out.So the crybabies that chip a nail and say that they're in excruciating agony really are?

Yeah, you're gullible.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
We know that Wolverine can take alot of punishment, has pervioulsy taken pain and not reacted to it, if he takes far less and reacts to that implies hes not able to cope with it so wellOr its the individual writer. Jesus you're a thick one.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Irrelevant. Yeah I know it proves you wrong. That's why I'm using it. Why don't you just accept it since we both know it proves you wrong?

Originally posted by jinzin


You have only one example of him saying that. My scans indicate otherwise.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So the people who fake being in pain, and the spoiled brats really ARE in the amount of pain they indicate?

By the gods you're a gullible one.

So the crybabies that chip a nail and say that they're in excruciating agony really are?

Yeah, you're gullible.

Or its the individual writer. Jesus you're a thick one.

Yeah I know it proves you wrong. That's why I'm using it. Why don't you just accept it since we both know it proves you wrong?

Wolverine fakes pain....irrelevant...goodbye.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont think he has because he needs to prove that his HF does. If he gets stabbed in the foot and goes cries out in pain without a HF...and with his HF gets stabbed through the stomache and sliced up and shows hardly any reaction im obvosuly going to think that his HF helps him cope with it.

Hell he got a clip unloaded into him by Crossbones and he didnt even move. Bullets dont just do edged damage they're hot as well, that most likely hurts more than getting stabbed in the foot.

logan is usually so full of adrenaline that he isn't going to feel things until later, but thats not a part of his healing factor, thats just the plain old human 'fight or flight' feeling...

there's no proof that his healing factor does anything considerable to help him deal with pain...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Look im aware that people can be in pain and not react but that still doesnt change the fact that crying out is an indication of ability to cope with pain.

Also pain is relative. A person may be experiencing the samething as somebody but if he feels hes in more pain then he is, that person with a lower pain threshold may also pass out.

We know that Wolverine can take alot of punishment, has pervioulsy taken pain and not reacted to it, if he takes far less and reacts to that implies hes not able to cope with it so well



Irrelevant.



Im not posting my scans again...ok? You mean your scans that don't prove this wrong, and don't prove all the other scans that say the same damned thing wrong?

Originally posted by Badabing
So, you are disregarding feats, abilities and showings? The answer is yes. Yes, he is disregarding things he doesn't agree with.

Show him a scan he discards it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You have only one example of him saying that. My scans indicate otherwise.



Wolverine fakes pain....irrelevant...goodbye. Your scans indicate nothing of the sort and if they did they'd contradict a whole bunch of other scans...

Quit spamming and trolling.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wolverine fakes pain....irrelevant...goodbye. Jesus H. tap dancing Christ on a pogo stick you're thick.

Originally posted by Raoul
logan is usually so full of adrenaline that he isn't going to feel things until later, but thats not a part of his healing factor, thats just the plain old human 'fight or flight' feeling...

there's no proof that his healing factor does anything considerable to help him deal with pain...


Could you please read what I posted because you just ignored it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont think he has because he needs to prove that his HF does. If he gets stabbed in the foot and goes cries out in pain without a HF...and with his HF gets stabbed through the stomache and sliced up and shows hardly any reaction im obvosuly going to think that his HF helps him cope with it.

Hell he got a clip unloaded into him by Crossbones and he didnt even move. Bullets dont just do edged damage they're hot as well, that most likely hurts more than getting stabbed in the foot.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Could you please read what I posted because you just ignored it.

i didn't ignore anything, i just didn't reply... ermm

Originally posted by Raoul
i didn't ignore anything, i just didn't reply... ermm

Well could you please reply to it becsue what I said is relevant.

HEALING FACTOR,

DOES.
NOT.
HELP.
WITH.
PAIN.

Wolverine explains his methods for dealing with pain while his healing factor tried to patch him up; He displays fairly impressive of both the human anatomy and psycology:
1. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4396/pain11wvep6.gif
2. http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2420/pain20hizh0.gif
3. http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5263/pain31teai3.gif
4. http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7796/pain48syqv0.gif
5. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8691/pain54hstn5.gif
6. http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/396/pain60voqh2.gif
7. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/82/pain78sikz7.gif
8. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5428/pain87noow5.gif
9. http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2854/pain96igsp9.gif
10. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/...ain105hfib7.gif
11. http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/...ain118iijg1.gif

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well could you please reply to it becsue what I said is relevant. So what you say is relevant and what others say that proves you wrong is irrelevant?

Yeah you're a troll... Also:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/82/pain78sikz7.gif
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3641/clawshurthp7.jpg
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4749/clawshurt2cr6.jpg

"phantom pains" huh? He feels his injuries for months huh?

His Healing factor helps him deal with pain huh?

How about no?

Dang it did it faster and better than I did.. but I grabbed the claws one of rogue.

The claws always hurt him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well could you please reply to it becsue what I said is relevant.

i don't know what you want me to say, really...

when the human body is damaged, it starts putting itself back together if it can, and in logan's case, the severity of the injuries usually means there's some serious body work going on...

i think its more down to mental discipline than anything connected to his healing factor that allows him to deal with pain in a considerable fashion...

i've honestly never seen any overwhelming evidence to contradict whats been, iirc, established canon for a while...

hell, he still gets hangovers, if his hf did dampen pain, you'd think that would be of some use...

Originally posted by jinzin
HEALING FACTOR,

DOES.
NOT.
HELP.
WITH.
PAIN.

Wolverine explains his methods for dealing with pain while his healing factor tried to patch him up; He displays fairly impressive of both the human anatomy and psycology:
1. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4396/pain11wvep6.gif
2. http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2420/pain20hizh0.gif
3. http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5263/pain31teai3.gif
4. http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7796/pain48syqv0.gif
5. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8691/pain54hstn5.gif
6. http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/396/pain60voqh2.gif
7. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/82/pain78sikz7.gif
8. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5428/pain87noow5.gif
9. http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2854/pain96igsp9.gif
10. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/...ain105hfib7.gif
11. http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/...ain118iijg1.gif

Again all that proves is that he still feels pain when he has a HF, get me an example of him suffereing from the samething without a HF then thats evidence.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again all that proves is that he still feels pain when he has a HF, get me an example of him suffereing from the samething without a HF then thats evidence. GEE Alf.. he STILL FEELS PAIN. when he has his Healing Factor. I thought you said it helped him cope:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/82/pain78sikz7.gif

IT DOESN'T.


Anyway, that's a slouthful induction argument. The evidence is heavily against you. Supressed evidence fallacy if you try to discard it.

Logic is against you. The Comics are against you. Quit ****ING trolling.

Originally posted by Creshosk
GEE Alf.. he STILL FEELS PAIN. when he has his Healing Factor. I thought you said it helped him cope:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/82/pain78sikz7.gif

IT DOESN'T.


You dont have any proof! If you have an example of him suffering from the samething without the HF then you have proof. All you have is evidence that it still hurts.

Originally posted by Raoul
i don't know what you want me to say, really...

when the human body is damaged, it starts putting itself back together if it can, and in logan's case, the severity of the injuries usually means there's some serious body work going on...

i think its more down to mental discipline than anything connected to his healing factor that allows him to deal with pain in a considerable fashion...

i've honestly never seen any overwhelming evidence to contradict whats been, iirc, established canon for a while...

hell, he still gets hangovers, if his hf did dampen pain, you'd think that would be of some use...

Again the evidence been given indicates that he still feels pain with his HF im not saying he doesnt. That does not disprove that he feels more pain without it.

Hes only stated ONCE that his HF makes it worse, that is contradicted by the three examples ive given. Just because he said it does not matter how logical doesnt mean that it does if there is evidence to contradict it.

The three examples ive given contradict that.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You dont have any proof!
Wrong.
Originally posted by jinzin
HEALING FACTOR,

DOES.
NOT.
HELP.
WITH.
PAIN.

Wolverine explains his methods for dealing with pain while his healing factor tried to patch him up; He displays fairly impressive of both the human anatomy and psycology:
1. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4396/pain11wvep6.gif
2. http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2420/pain20hizh0.gif
3. http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5263/pain31teai3.gif
4. http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7796/pain48syqv0.gif
5. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8691/pain54hstn5.gif
6. http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/396/pain60voqh2.gif
7. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/82/pain78sikz7.gif
8. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5428/pain87noow5.gif
9. http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2854/pain96igsp9.gif
10. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/...ain105hfib7.gif
11. http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/...ain118iijg1.gif

Don't make me convert those to images so its harder for you to ignore them.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
If you have an example of him suffering from the samething without the HF then you have proof. All you have is evidence that it still hurts. Slothful induction.

You said it helps him cope. Obviously it doesn't help him cope. Well at least obivious to people who have brains and aren't trolling.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again the evidence been given indicates that he still feels pain with his HF im not saying he doesnt. That does not disprove that he feels more pain without it.YOU have to prove that he DOES you cannot prove a negative... and that "phantom pain" is going to be impossible for you to prove against.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hes only stated ONCE that his HF makes it worse, that is contradicted by the three examples ive given. Just because he said it does not matter how logical doesnt mean that it does if there is evidence to contradict it. Quit using logicla. you're like one of the least logical people on KMC... The evidence is against you.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The three examples ive given contradict that. Which is contradicted by the eleven scans jinzin posted and the two I posted (from Jinzin's Wolverine thread)

13>3

The evidence is against you.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again the evidence been given indicates that he still feels pain with his HF im not saying he doesnt. That does not disprove that he feels more pain without it.

you can't be serious...



who said it makes him worse? the pain is the same, regardless, its the healing afterwards that makes it more painful...

In Uncanny 499 Wolverine tells Omega Red that eyes hurt just as much growing back as they do getting ripped out.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hes only stated ONCE that his HF makes it worse, that is contradicted by the three examples ive given. Just because he said it does not matter how logical doesnt mean that it does if there is evidence to contradict it.

The three examples ive given contradict that. You don't have any examples that contradict it...

Wolverine fighting OR in the last uncanny issue flat out states "eyes hurt as bad growing back as they do getting cut out... so do lungs!"

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In Uncanny 499 Wolverine tells Omega Red that eyes hurt just as much growing back as they do getting ripped out. woops.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In Uncanny 499 Wolverine tells Omega Red that eyes hurt just as much growing back as they do getting ripped out.

Ok i'll concede.

Originally posted by jinzin
Lets see what kind of bullshit excuses Alf has for these:


Even suffering from Adamantium poisoning with a barely working healing factor Wolverine can still take a tremendous amount of damage. He shrugs off Sinister’s best shots and then has massive explosion set of right in his face, and is up an about a few seconds later with his hair already grown back.
1. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/...7Durability.jpg
2. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/...4Durability.jpg
3. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/...5Durability.jpg
4. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/...6Durability.jpg
5. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/...7Durability.jpg
6. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/...8Durability.jpg
7. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/...9Durability.jpg
8. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/...2Durability.jpg

These can't even be argued for healing factor having anything to do with them:
Psylocke is assaulted telepathic, experiencing the same pain as Storm due to a psychic link. Wolverine leaps to her air craft in order tp take control and avoid a crash. Wolverine becomes connected to the psychic link by proximity, Psylocke is screaming, clutching her head and having a fit... Wolverine nonchalantly says “Yeah, its agony...” and lands the air craft like nothing is wrong... and this was a severely weakened Wolverine.
1. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/...27114Mental.jpg
2. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/...27115Mental.jpg

Even for a thousands years old demon who has come back from death and the pits of hell, the horrors in Wolverine's mind are so horrible that Ogun can't sustain his demonic hold over Logan.
1. http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/9951/mindogunfp5.jpg

Nope sorry im not even gonna read that sranks proof is enough for me. Bulshit excuses? If I were you id still continue to argue against it, goodnight.

GOD! TROLL!

Just so you know Alf, You're reported for trolling.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok i'll concede.



Nope sorry im not even gonna read that sranks proof is enough for me. Bulshit excuses? If I were you id still continue to argue against it, goodnight.

if you're going to be like that, then whats a warning, and if you don't know why, it's for trolling, and bashing...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok i'll concede.



Nope sorry im not even gonna read that sranks proof is enough for me. Bulshit excuses? If I were you id still continue to argue against it, goodnight.
you just jump down to mastbruces level................

Wolverine makes his opponent the late Lady Shiva

I doubt he is on her level H2H but because of his stats he can win.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I doubt he is on her level H2H but because of his stats he can win. Yeah you posted in here before:
Originally posted by The Great Galen
Logan takes this handily but only due to his claws, h2h and based on skill he would be stomped 10/10.

You got ignored then too.

Don't know why, guess some wolv fanboys r bit touchy.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Don't know why, guess some wolv fanboys r bit touchy. Might be that you don't register as much more than a minor blip on the give-a-shit-o-meter if anything.

Your name comes up and its like, "Oh, don't care. Moving on to more important people... Phantom Zone!"

So ur a wov fanboy, k thanks. H2H wise he doesnt win but yet everyone constantly overlooks that fact...bias anyone.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I doubt he is on her level H2H but because of his stats he can win.

Shiva doesn't have any h2h feats that put her above Logan in skill. Even if Logan's only impressive showing in h2h was stomping Shang Chi into the mud, it would still be more than enough to say Wolverine > Shiva in skill. Shiva has never beaten ANYONE as skilled as Chi, let alone beat them as easily as Wolverine did.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Shiva doesn't have any h2h feats that put her above Logan in skill. Even if Logan's only impressive showing in h2h was stomping Shang Chi into the mud, it would still be more than enough to say Wolverine > Shiva in skill. Shiva has never beaten ANYONE as skilled as Chi, let alone beat them as easily as Wolverine did.

Yeah...okay there.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
So ur a wov fanboy, k thanks. H2H wise he doesnt win but yet everyone constantly overlooks that fact...bias anyone. You're not a really good troll are you?

Normally when I spot one I feel like tearing into them... you however... you make me yawn.

Really, cause we all know Wov has always just got by his h2h skill and not because of his stats.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Yeah...okay there.

The classic "nu-huh" argument? I take it you don't have any thing resembling a counter point then?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Normally when I spot one I feel like tearing into them...

Originally posted by Creshosk
Might be that you don't register as much more than a minor blip on the give-a-shit-o-meter if anything.

Your name comes up and its like, "Oh, don't care. Moving on to more important people... Phantom Zone!"

There no reason to call people names. Try to be civil. Thanks.

Look I'm not saying Wolverine wouldn't win, but the only reason he would is because of his stats. If he and Shiva were with the exact same stats I don't think he has wat it takes to bring her down H2H, IMO wolv is easily the most overated H2H guy in comics today.

And you're entitled to your opinion, as horribly wrong as it is.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Shiva doesn't have any h2h feats that put her above Logan in skill. Even if Logan's only impressive showing in h2h was stomping Shang Chi into the mud, it would still be more than enough to say Wolverine > Shiva in skill. Shiva has never beaten ANYONE as skilled as Chi, let alone beat them as easily as Wolverine did.

*sigh* Wolverine HF and claws helped him beat Shang Chi. The reason why the fight stopped was because he had claws to his head otherwise the fight would have gone. That fight doesnt pove hes better than Shang in terms of skill.

I think you're exaggerating she is arguably better than Batman. Batman is probably on par with Cap in terms of skill.

Originally posted by Raoul
if you're going to be like that, then whats a warning, and if you don't know why, it's for trolling, and bashing...

Excuse me?

1. I wasnt trolling.
2. They insluted me numerous amount of time and you did NOTHING

Whats going on? Im going to make my case but obvoulsy you're probably going to ignore ahwt im going to say.

ooops sorry double post.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* Wolverine HF Seeing as how Wolverine never took a hit, his healing factor did not play a part.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and claws helped him beat Shang Chi. Only as much as Punisher's gun helped him in that one fight Jinzin mentioned.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The reason why the fight stopped was because he had claws to his head otherwise the fight would have gone. Just like if Punisher hadn't whipped out his gun in that other fight it could have kept going.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
That fight doesnt pove hes better than Shang in terms of skill. Which is why Shang got trounced soundly right?

You discarding feats again that you don't agree with?
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I think you're exaggerating she is arguably better than Batman. Batman is probably on par with Cap in terms of skill. And as we all know, cap is godly. Who cares what others have done Cap and frank are awsome. jason

Originally posted by Creshosk
Seeing as how Wolverine never took a hit, his healing factor did not play a part.

Only as much as Punisher's gun helped him in that one fight Jinzin mentioned.

Just like if Punisher hadn't whipped out his gun in that other fight it could have kept going.

Which is why Shang got trounced soundly right?

You discarding feats again that you don't agree with?
And as we all know, cap is godly. Who cares what others have done Cap and frank are awsome. jason

Go away.