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Note: This might need to be moved to the Comic Book Forum, but it mostly concerns the Versus Forum and debates, so I thought I'd post it here first.

I was wondering if we, as a board, can vote Wolverine Origins out of continuity? Just decided to out right ignore everything that takes place with in? We have the PIS and CIS rules to ignore isolated feats, but we really should have something in place to ignore entire runs when they do nothing but tarnish the history of the characters involved... and what better run to start with than Wolverine Origins? Wolverine Origins is a train wreak, it does nothing but rape Wolverine's character and we should make an example of it by banishing it form continuity. Can we put it to a vote or get a Mod ruling?

No story before Wolverine Origins has managed to butcher a character on the same level Way has with Wolverine. Not a single worth while thing has come from this series. Seriously, it is an outrage. It's almost like the point of Origins is to disregard every heroic character trait Wolverine has, to completely destroy his character... and turn him into a mass murder, a torturer, and even a war criminal responsible for the execution of women and children. Where is the man of honor? Gone. There is virtually no ties between the character established in previous Wolverine stories and the man present in Origins.

Wolverine's past as established in Origins makes him a villain ,and one that his significantly worse then most of Marvel's big bads. Even if I'm supposed to buy that he has reformed, feels guilty about his past and wants to redeem himself for his actions (which has aways been Wolverine's stick), the stuff he has done is so heinous, that nothing short of death will suffice. If he had any sort of honor (and considering he supposedly lives by Bushido... ) he'd kill himself out right or turn himself into the authorities for his war crimes and be executed. Because of Origins, Wolverine loses all his credibility. How can someone lecture Magneto to his face when he has done things far, far, FAR worse?


Nothing in the story meshes at all. It is completely out of character for Wolverine, and disregards every character driven moment in Wolverine's past. I can't imagine why anyone would allow Wolverine to walk around free considering his past. If Hitler survived in Marvel and started wearing spandex and fighting crime because he felt bad about what he did, do you think Captain America would team up with him? No, he'd kick his ass all over the place. No one would tolerate it... why do they tolerate Wolverine?

It's not like he is even a puppet on strings either, nothing thus far suggest he was anything other than a willing participate... he even gives orders to people. Before Origins we all knew Logan had done some shady stuff int the past, but it was all under the pretences that he wasn't in control of his actions; that he was being brain washed and mind controlled, feed false information and manipulated. He certainly seems pretty in-control to me... and how does that play well with what's been established before?

Wolverine was always supposed to be a man of honor, one prone to fits of extreme violence, but a man of honor none the less. Where is that Wolverine? Where is the fallen Samurai?

The whole run is so out of character, for Wolverine. I think we as a forum need to address this with a forum ruling to banish Wolverine Origins from continuity, or a new rule to address when a character has been so miss handled across an entire arch not just a single incident.

Raise your hand if you care.

...

*crickets*


Nah, I'm kidding. But realistically, we can't as a forum place a policy on how a specific character or series is treated. This isn't CBR. You can personally ignore the run and direct Masterbruce to this thread when he attempts to use events from the title to degrade Wolverine's abilities, but... we're readers, it's official fiction.

Go write a letter to Marvel, put this effort into something more likely to have a lasting and greater effect.

I do appreciate where you're coming from though. Especially since this series is essentially retconning Wolverine with every issue...

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
Raise your hand if you care.

...

*crickets*


Nah, I'm kidding. But realistically, we can't as a forum place a policy on how a specific character or series is treated. This isn't CBR. You can personally ignore the run and direct Masterbruce to this thread when he attempts to use events from the title to degrade Wolverine's abilities, but... we're readers, it's official fiction.

Go write a letter to Marvel, put this effort into something more likely to have a lasting and greater effect.

I do appreciate where you're coming from though. Especially since this series is essentially retconning Wolverine with every issue...

We've decided as a forum to ignore certan instances of PIS. I don't see how PIS being stretched out over an entire arch should be treated differently.

I haven't read any of origins.

Is it really that bad srank?

Personally I don't mind if its disregarded. I'm not sure how and where it fits into the continuity with the astonishing X-Men run for example.

I mean he was being killed by a bomb internally at the same time he was up on Breakworld with the rest of the X-Men dealing with that Collossus prophecy wasn't he?

No body else is really reading it I don't think. I know I stopped sometime back. and the only ones I even bothered to actually buy were the ones with Jubilee in it. but .. I didn't buy the one where she was impaled.

It really does seem like an elseworld sorta thing doesn't it?

But I'll ask the people who want it to stay cannon. Where does it fit in continuity with the Astonishing X-Men run? I mean we all make jokes about wolverine being in multiple places at once. But I think there's a stretch when he's both off world and running around collecting his past.

It really doesn't fit in the timeline and could be discounted on that basis.

Out of character, doesn't fit in the timeline. I'll cast a vote for disregarding this travesty to comics.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
I haven't read any of origins.

Is it really that bad srank?

Yeah, it's atrocious.

Origins is shit, that's my view. But actually Wolverine is the only one shown with skill(at times), I mean how long did it take Deadpool to grow back a couple fingers in Origins? He fully reformed from liquid in seconds in C/D, but it takes minutes to grow back 2 fingers.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
We've decided as a forum to ignore certan instances of PIS. I don't see how PIS being stretched out over an entire arch should be treated differently. But we can't officialize it. And even if we do that, we certainly can't enforce it. Paul can't go around banning for talk of a specific arc.

Though... Bada might. Go PM him.

So Origins, an abomination to Wolverine. Doesn't fit in the Timeline and disregards other characters histories as well.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Personally I don't mind if its disregarded. I'm not sure how and where it fits into the continuity with the astonishing X-Men run for example.

I mean he was being killed by a bomb internally at the same time he was up on Breakworld with the rest of the X-Men dealing with that Collossus prophecy wasn't he?

No body else is really reading it I don't think. I know I stopped sometime back. and the only ones I even bothered to actually buy were the ones with Jubilee in it. but .. I didn't buy the one where she was impaled.

It really does seem like an elseworld sorta thing doesn't it?

But I'll ask the people who want it to stay cannon. Where does it fit in continuity with the Astonishing X-Men run? I mean we all make jokes about wolverine being in multiple places at once. But I think there's a stretch when he's both off world and running around collecting his past.

It really doesn't fit in the timeline and could be discounted on that basis.

Out of character, doesn't fit in the timeline. I'll cast a vote for disregarding this travesty to comics.

It takes before Whedon's Astonishing.... or maye after... where the hell does Astonishing fit? Origins happens pretty much right after HoM. Issues 1-15 take please before Loebs run on Wolverine and 16-26 (minus flash back issues, take place afterwards.

... maybe?

Originally posted by Creshosk
So Origins, an abomination to Wolverine. Doesn't fit in the Timeline and disregards other characters histories as well.

Yea, that pretty much sums it up.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
But we can't officialize it. And even if we do that, we certainly can't enforce it. Paul can't go around banning for talk of a specific arc.

Though... Bada might. Go PM him.

No, we'd just have to point out that its not considered canon anymore than a what if or elseworld is.

We don't ban people for trying to use those.

Originally posted by Mindset
Origins is shit, that's my view. But actually Wolverine is the only one shown with skill(at times), I mean how long did it take Deadpool to grow back a couple fingers in Origins? He fully reformed from liquid in seconds in C/D, but it takes minutes to grow back 2 fingers.

Dum Dum koyed Logan by shooting him in the back of the skull with a hand gun. Everyone in Origins is all over the place.

And Way is the guy who wrote Wolverine taking a nuke point blank in Venom... a bit of a discrepancy.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Dum Dum koyed Logan by shooting him in the back of the skull with a hand gun. Everyone in Origins is all over the place.

And Way is the guy who wrote Wolverine taking a nuke point blank in Venom... a bit of a discrepancy.

Yea, that's why I said he showed skill at times. Eventually the bad writing has to even affect Logan.

Originally posted by Creshosk
We don't ban people for trying to use those. I can think of a few problems it would solve if we did.

If I worked at Marvel, I'd write the whole thing off by saying that Wanda just concocted a crazy, convoluted past where everything tied together for Wolverine in HoM - rather then help him remember the truth - and Romulus isn't even real, just someone Wanda created.

Wow. The idea of disregarding an entire run just because you dislike it?

Origins is an abomination. No one argues that fact. However, it remains a canon abomination unless Marvel says otherwise. None of us have to like it, but that doesn't mean we can ignore it.

Lets throw WWH in there too while were at it.pinch

this thread cracks me up.

Would ignoring the canonicity of Origins thereby ignore the retcon to Wolverine's immortality?

Originally posted by Soljer
Wow. The idea of disregarding an entire run just because you dislike it?

Origins is an abomination. No one argues that fact. However, it remains a canon abomination unless Marvel says otherwise. None of us have to like it, but that doesn't mean we can ignore it.

Yes but it is SUCH an abomination that actually including it in Wolverine's mythos is detrimental to the character. Aside from the name, the character in Wolverine Origins bares little in common with Wolverine character wise. A run this awful, and this out line with how the title character has been portrayed in the past, requires a new forum rolling to deal with its mere existence IMO.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
Would ignoring the canonicity of Origins thereby ignore the retcon to Wolverine's immortality?

If it did, it would also ignore the official-ization of his immortality.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
Would ignoring the canonicity of Origins thereby ignore the retcon to Wolverine's immortality?

He was retconned back to being not immortal by Guggenhiem anyway.

the thing with removing Origins is it leads down to a slippery slope

alot of things in comics don't seem right with a character or their history or people are unhappy with them, if we remove Origins, then people are gonna push for other things to be removed too...and that can't happen

Originally posted by Soljer
Wow. The idea of disregarding an entire run just because you dislike it?

Origins is an abomination. No one argues that fact. However, it remains a canon abomination unless Marvel says otherwise. None of us have to like it, but that doesn't mean we can ignore it. CAn you tell me how its storyline fits into the timeline of the other books wolverine appears in?

New Avengers and AXM for example?

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
Would ignoring the canonicity of Origins thereby ignore the retcon to Wolverine's immortality? it would also ignore them stating he had it. it was in origins he beat the angel of death and gained that ridiculous explanation to why he always recovers. That itself was a retcon that weakened some of the fatal attractions arc. Wolverine was dying and it wasn't fighting and beating the angel of death that saved him. It was Jean grey getting tossed out of the plane and Wolverine resisting the fact that he was dying to save his friend.

"Wolverine is immortal" came from origins.
"Wolverine is no longer immortal" came from origins.

Of course the fact that he's a top popular icon of marvel is what give him his true immortality. Same with Spider man and the hulk etc.

Originally posted by Starscream M
the thing with removing Origins is it leads down to a slippery slope

alot of things in comics don't seem right with a character or their history or people are unhappy with them, if we remove Origins, then people are gonna push for other things to be removed too...and that can't happen

Originally posted by Starscream M
the thing with removing Origins is it leads down to a slippery slope

alot of things in comics don't seem right with a character or their history or people are unhappy with them, if we remove Origins, then people are gonna push for other things to be removed too...and that can't happen

You'll be hard pressed to find something as bad as Origins. Not many stories turn heroes into War Criminals who willing sentence Women and Children in large masses to death... while still trying to be super heroes in the present.

Wolverine Origins is on whole other level of awful characterization, that it pretty much stands alone.

Let's make Soljer non-canon

cres your wrong about that. Immortality thing did not come from origins.

Originally posted by Creshosk

it would also ignore them stating he had it. it was in origins he beat the angel of death and gained that ridiculous explanation to why he always recovers. that immortality thing was the only thing that did explain how Wolverine survived some of the things that he did though...they'd have to come up with another explanation

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes but it is SUCH an abomination that actually including it in Wolverine's mythos is detrimental to the character. Aside from the name, the character in Wolverine Origins bares little in common with Wolverine character wise. A run this awful, and this out line with how the title character has been portrayed in the past, requires a new forum rolling to deal with its mere existence IMO.

Besides the name? And the appearance, costume, powers, weapons.

Marvel says it's Wolverine? It's Wolverine. Marvel says it's 616? It's 616.

Again, we cannot arbitrarily decide to disregard an entire run just because we don't like the way the writer handled some of the characters.

Bad writers exist, bad stories exist, bad runs exist. Write Marvel, get others to drop the title, get it canceled, whatever you feel like doing. Nothing that has happened thus far in Origins, however, has pointed to it being non-canon.

Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way trying to defend the piece of shit book. Just noting that it is, in fact, canon. Even if you had a *laughs at the ridiculousness of what he is about to type* 'forum ruling' stating that it was inadmissible in debates 'because some posters didn't like it,' it'd STILL be canon.

Originally posted by Creshosk
CAn you tell me how its storyline fits into the timeline of the other books wolverine appears in?

New Avengers and AXM for example?

it would also ignore them stating he had it. it was in origins he beat the angel of death and gained that ridiculous explanation to why he always recovers. That itself was a retcon that weakened some of the fatal attractions arc. Wolverine was dying and it wasn't fighting and beating the angel of death that saved him. It was Jean grey getting tossed out of the plane and Wolverine resisting the fact that he was dying to save his friend.

"Wolverine is immortal" came from origins.
"Wolverine is no longer immortal" came from origins.

Of course the fact that he's a top popular icon of marvel is what give him his true immortality. Same with Spider man and the hulk etc.

It was in Wolverine's normal book actually.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You'll be hard pressed to find something as bad as Origins. Not many stories turn heroes into War Criminals who willing sentence Women and Children in large masses to death... while still trying to be super heroes in the present.

Wolverine Origins is on whole other level of awful characterization, that it pretty much stands alone. Im not clear on origins since I haven't read alot of it, but isn't it before Wolverine officially becomes a 'hero'? so it isnt that contradictory....nobody ever claimed logan was always an angel.

Originally posted by Soljer
Besides the name? And the appearance, costume, powers, weapons.

Marvel says it's Wolverine? It's Wolverine. Marvel says it's 616? It's 616.

Again, we cannot arbitrarily decide to disregard an entire run just because we don't like the way the writer handled some of the characters.

Bad writers exist, bad stories exist, bad runs exist. Write Marvel, get others to drop the title, get it canceled, whatever you feel like doing. Nothing that has happened thus far in Origins, however, has pointed to it being non-canon.

Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way trying to defend the piece of shit book. Just noting that it is, in fact, canon. Even if you had a *laughs at the ridiculousness of what he is about to type* 'forum ruling' stating that it was inadmissible in debates 'because some posters didn't like it,' it'd STILL be canon. Soljer, I admire your consistency

but are you saying that anything canon, no matter how bad it is, or going against a character and their history, (perhaps due to a complete shit writer knowing little about the character) MUSt be accepted as canon for the character?

Originally posted by Soljer
Besides the name? And the appearance, costume, powers, weapons.

Marvel says it's Wolverine? It's Wolverine. Marvel says it's 616? It's 616.

Again, we cannot arbitrarily decide to disregard an entire run just because we don't like the way the writer handled some of the characters.

Bad writers exist, bad stories exist, bad runs exist. Write Marvel, get others to drop the title, get it canceled, whatever you feel like doing. Nothing that has happened thus far in Origins, however, has pointed to it being non-canon.

Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way trying to defend the piece of shit book. Just noting that it is, in fact, canon. Even if you had a *laughs at the ridiculousness of what he is about to type* 'forum ruling' stating that it was inadmissible in debates 'because some posters didn't like it,' it'd STILL be canon. Prove that Marvel said it was 616.

Originally posted by Starscream M
Im not clear on origins since I haven't read alot of it, but isn't it before Wolverine officially becomes a 'hero'? so it isnt that contradictory....nobody ever claimed logan was always an angel.
lol I love how you can lie over and over again..........


your stated a number of times you have read all of origins.........

now the truth comes out.

Originally posted by Starscream M
Im not clear on origins since I haven't read alot of it, but isn't it before Wolverine officially becomes a 'hero'? so it isnt that contradictory....nobody ever claimed logan was always an angel.

Some of it was, not anymore.

Originally posted by Soljer
Besides the name? And the appearance, costume, powers, weapons.

Marvel says it's Wolverine? It's Wolverine. Marvel says it's 616? It's 616.

Again, we cannot arbitrarily decide to disregard an entire run just because we don't like the way the writer handled some of the characters.

Bad writers exist, bad stories exist, bad runs exist. Write Marvel, get others to drop the title, get it canceled, whatever you feel like doing. Nothing that has happened thus far in Origins, however, has pointed to it being non-canon.

Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way trying to defend the piece of shit book. Just noting that it is, in fact, canon. Even if you had a *laughs at the ridiculousness of what he is about to type* 'forum ruling' stating that it was inadmissible in debates 'because some posters didn't like it,' it'd STILL be canon.

Why can't we make that decision? We decided to disregard certain feats because of their ridiculousness. They still technically happened, we just ignore them. We can't we do the same with Origins?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Prove that Marvel said it was 616.

It ties into to Wolverine's main title, which ties into X-Men. It is also crossing over with X-Men Legacy.

It is 616 canon... but we should write it off.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
lol I love how you can lie over and over again..........


your stated a number of times you have read all of origins.........

now the truth comes out. actually, I never said I read ALL of Origins, so you're the one lying...unless you can find quote me saying that. now let's get back on topic.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It was in Wolverine's normal book actually. Ah damn.. my bad...


Can I still write it off as stupid explanations by writers? Up there with "Clark slouches" or "Clark vibrates his facial features"?


Cause we all know that he's still going to be immortal. He's still going to be punched by bricks which should kill him, he's still going to be shot and survive and so on and so forth.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It ties into to Wolverine's main title, which ties into X-Men. It is also crossing over with X-Men Legacy.

It is 616 canon... but we should write it off. You know I'm trying to help you out here... Hell I'm willing to sacrifice New Warriors continuity to help you out but if you're going to undermine my shenanigans then I really can't help your efforts too much.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Ah damn.. my bad...


Can I still write it off as stupid explanations by writers? Up there with "Clark slouches" or "Clark vibrates his facial features"?


Cause we all know that he's still going to be immortal. He's still going to be punched by bricks which should kill him, he's still going to be shot and survive and so on and so forth. stupid explanation is better than no explanation at least

Originally posted by Creshosk
CAn you tell me how its storyline fits into the timeline of the other books wolverine appears in?

New Avengers and AXM for example?

If anything, AXM strays from the normal contemporary X-Men canon. That arc does its own thing.

Originally posted by Creshosk
CAn you tell me how its storyline fits into the timeline of the other books wolverine appears in?

New Avengers and AXM for example?


Doesn't matter. This isn't a method of evasion - it really just isn't relevant. Cross-comic appearances are inconsistent. Always. That does not make them non-canon. Superman can be stuck in the 31st Century for a few days in Action, and be simultaneously fighting the Injustice League alongside the JLA, and be on the moon fighting the insect queen in Superman. All three events happened simultaneously in real-world time. The order in which they took place in fiction, and how they tied together doesn't really matter. DC says they all happened, they all happened.

Danny Rand can be in K'un Lun participating in an other-worldly Kung Fu tournament while simultaneously fighting the Hood (and, of course, finding time to put on that ridiculous collar in between the two). Both events happened simultaneously in real-time. The order in which they took place in fiction and how they tie together really does not matter. Marvel says they both happened, they both happened.

Wolverine can be off in space with AXM, fighting in Civil War with the New Avengers, searching for Romulus in Origins, and in Afghanistan looking for Mystique in Wolverine. All of these events happened simultaneously in real-time. The order in which they took place in fiction and how they tie together does not matter. Marvel says that Wolverine was in five places doing ten things with eighty different people....he was.

Hell, it's possible that Wolverine Origins is 616, but out of 'sync' with continuity - the same way Superman/Batman still represents canon adventures featuring the relationship between Superman and Batman, but does not really pay any attention to current events in DC.

Originally posted by batdude123
If anything, AXM strays from the normal contemporary X-Men canon. That arc does its own thing.
I kinda agree with this.

Originally posted by Starscream M
stupid explanation is better than no explanation at least I have to disagree with you there. With no explanation its "Meh, its just part of the character." With this stupid explanation it really cheapens some of the things and really.. its just plain shit.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You know I'm trying to help you out here... Hell I'm willing to sacrifice New Warriors continuity to help you out but if you're going to undermine my shenanigans then I really can't help your efforts too much.



Sorry I underminded you.

I was never trying to suggest it wasn't canon though. It is... but who care? It is such an unmitigated piece of trash it should be disguard anyway.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I have to disagree with you there. With no explanation its "Meh, its just part of the character." With this stupid explanation it really cheapens some of the things and really.. its just plain shit. eh....I guess I have a personal peeve with the "it's just part of the character" explanation...which is usually just a copout for poor writing

Originally posted by Soljer
Doesn't matter. This isn't a method of evasion - it really just isn't relevant. Cross-comic appearances are inconsistent. Always. That does not make them non-canon. Superman can be stuck in the 31st Century for a few days in Action, and be simultaneously fighting the Injustice League alongside the JLA, and be on the moon fighting the insect queen in Superman. All three events happened simultaneously in real-world time. The order in which they took place in fiction, and how they tied together doesn't really matter. DC says they all happened, they all happened.

Danny Rand can be in K'un Lun participating in an other-worldly Kung Fu tournament while simultaneously fighting the Hood (and, of course, finding time to put on that ridiculous collar in between the two). Both events happened simultaneously in real-time. The order in which they took place in fiction and how they tie together really does not matter. Marvel says they both happened, they both happened.

Wolverine can be off in space with AXM, fighting in Civil War with the New Avengers, searching for Romulus in Origins, and in Afghanistan looking for Mystique in Wolverine. All of these events happened simultaneously in real-time. The order in which they took place in fiction and how they tie together does not matter. Marvel says that Wolverine was in five places doing ten things with eighty different people....he was.

Hell, it's possible that Wolverine Origins is 616, but out of 'sync' with continuity - the same way Superman/Batman still represents canon adventures featuring the relationship between Superman and Batman, but does not really pay any attention to current events in DC. Yeah yeah, Comics timelines suck balls. I've known this since Jubilee joined Generation X back in the 90s when they made her 13 from being old enough to attend Beverly hills preparatory academy and then being with the x-men for a while after that.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It is such an unmitigated piece of trash thats your opinion though

Originally posted by Starscream M
eh....I guess I have a personal peeve with the "it's just part of the character" explanation...which is usually just a copout for poor writing You don't explain bad writing with more bad writing. Nor do you explain good writing with bad writing.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Why can't we make that decision? We decided to disregard certain feats because of their ridiculousness. They still technically happened, we just ignore them. We can't we do the same with Origins?

Feats != Runs. Therein lies the rub, so to speak.

If you think a few feats in Origins are 'PIS,' then argue that in the threads. Hell, if you think EVERY feat Wolverine pulled off in Origins is 'PIS,' then be my guest to take that position in Wolverine threads.

An entire run however, by definition, cannot be. 'PIS' is a term that we use on this forum to describe feats. Just feats. Bad characterization need not apply.

Originally posted by Starscream M
thats your opinion though Actually I'd like to see someone who likes every single part of it...

and not someone whom hates wolverine. They don't count.

We get one issue a month (if we are lucky) and character's age - maybe - one year for every five. There is a lot of room in there for descrepencies in locations between titles. You can get an entire six issue arch that takes place in a single day... what are they doing for the rest of the year? Vacation?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah yeah, Comics timelines suck balls. I've known this since Jubilee joined Generation X back in the 90s when they made her 13 from being old enough to attend Beverly hills preparatory academy and then being with the x-men for a while after that.

Then why argue that Origins is non-canon based on something you outright acknowledge...doesn't matter?

Originally posted by Soljer
Feats != Runs. Therein lies the rub, so to speak.

If you think a few feats in Origins are 'PIS,' then argue that in the threads. Hell, if you think EVERY feat Wolverine pulled off in Origins is 'PIS,' then be my guest to take that position in Wolverine threads.

An entire run however, by definition, cannot be. 'PIS' is a term that we use on this forum to describe feats. Just feats. Bad characterization need not apply. Actually PIS stands for Plot Induced Stupidity. If the entire damend run's plot is stupid, that would make everything that happened in it Stupidity for the sake of the plot or plot induced stupidity.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Actually I'd like to see someone who likes every single part of it...

and not someone whom hates wolverine. They don't count. I'm sure enough people like that cuz or else they would've altered it or canceled it

Originally posted by Soljer
Feats != Runs. Therein lies the rub, so to speak.

If you think a few feats in Origins are 'PIS,' then argue that in the threads. Hell, if you think EVERY feat Wolverine pulled off in Origins is 'PIS,' then be my guest to take that position in Wolverine threads.

An entire run however, by definition, cannot be. 'PIS' is a term that we use on this forum to describe feats. Just feats. Bad characterization need not apply.

Which is why I asked for a new ruling to ignore runs as a whole. If we as a forum can make a rule to ignore feats for PIS, I don't see why we can't make up a rule to ignore a run... I mean... we made the PIS rule up when the need arised (arouse?), I think the need has arisen to deal with archs.

I don't see why PIS is limited to feats of strength influenced by the plot... and not a plot influeced by stupidity.

Lol arouse, I think you mean arose.

Unless pis gets you off

Originally posted by Creshosk
Actually PIS stands for Plot Induced Stupidity. If the entire damend run's plot is stupid, that would make everything that happened in it Stupidity for the sake of the plot or plot induced stupidity.

You feel I do not know what the acronym stands for?

A feat can be described as 'plot induced stupidity.' A feat a character should be incapable of, but performs anyways for the sake of the plot - either making the writing easier or just more exciting for the reader. Captain America throwing his shield after an ICBM is pretty 'stupid.' But it wrapped up the plot well, and was pretty damned cool to see.

A run, however, doesn't happen for the sake of the plot. It isn't a feat. A run IS the plot. A plot cannot be plot induced stupidity.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm sure enough people like that cuz or else they would've altered it or canceled it

I'm sure most of them are Wolverine completest like me who just can't drop the book.

Originally posted by Mindset
Lol arouse, I think you mean arose.

Unless pis gets you off

I'm Canadian... I just through 'u's into everything for safe measure lol

Yea, I actually don't know why I read Origins.

Originally posted by Soljer
You feel I do not know what the acronym stands for?

A feat can be described as 'plot induced stupidity.' A feat a character should be incapable of, but performs anyways for the sake of the plot - either making the writing easier or just more exciting for the reader. Captain America throwing his shield after an ICBM is pretty 'stupid.' But it wrapped up the plot well, and was pretty damned cool to see.

A run, however, doesn't happen for the sake of the plot. It isn't a feat. A run IS the plot. A plot cannot be plot induced stupidity.

SIP?

Stupidity induced Plot?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
We get one issue a month (if we are lucky) and character's age - maybe - one year for every five. There is a lot of room in there for descrepencies in locations between titles. You can get an entire six issue arch that takes place in a single day... what are they doing for the rest of the year? Vacation? Some people mark the passing of time by the surrounding environment. We call them seasons. The leaves turn brown and fall off, then frozen water falls for a period of time, before things get warmer and the frozen water goes away and flowers bloom and the leaves come back. We call this a year.

In her first appearence she mentions that she was an aces gymnist attending Beverly hills prep. meaning she was getting ready to go to college.

Remember, while marvel does have fictional places it also has real places. And beverly hills prep:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Hills_Preparatory_School

Actually exists.

Originally posted by Soljer
You feel I do not know what the acronym stands for?

A feat can be described as 'plot induced stupidity.' A feat a character should be incapable of, but performs anyways for the sake of the plot - either making the writing easier or just more exciting for the reader. Captain America throwing his shield after an ICBM is pretty 'stupid.' But it wrapped up the plot well, and was pretty damned cool to see.

A run, however, doesn't happen for the sake of the plot. It isn't a feat. A run IS the plot. A plot cannot be plot induced stupidity. I don't see an F in PIS do you?

Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm sure enough people like that cuz or else they would've altered it or canceled it And I'm sure that enough people Like wolverine to warrent the exposure he's getting.

They don't come here so your point is moot.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Which is why I asked for a new ruling to ignore runs as a whole. If we as a forum can make a rule to ignore feats for PIS, I don't see why we can't make up a rule to ignore a run... I mean... we made the PIS rule up when the need arised (arouse?), I think the need has arisen to deal with archs.

I don't see why PIS is limited to feats of strength influenced by the plot... and not a plot influeced by stupidity.

For one, we as a forum do NOT ignore feats as plot induced stupidity. We have a rule that allows us to argue, in context, that some feats SHOULD be disregarded, and some posters feel certain feats fall into this category. Other posters disagree. There isn't a 'master list' note at the top of the forum that says "these feats are PIS and are, therefore, unusable." What you are suggesting is, more or less "this(ese) run(s) are unusable in this forum." And anytime someone says "Wolverine did XXXXX in Origins," you cite this thread and say "nuh-uh! Not on KMC, he didn't!"

Point is, you may feel that a certain feat is PIS, another post disagrees. Our rule regarding PIS does NOT validate your position, it simply allows you to take it. The two of you can argue till the cows come home over whether Captain America should have really been able to throw his shield after an ICBM.

In a similar manner, feel free to argue in a thread that feats from Origins should be ignored because the writer is a moron who disregards continuity and characterization and personally, anally, and forcefully rapes Wolverine at every turn. There should not however be an all-encompassing rule that says "Origins? Nuh-uh."

Originally posted by Creshosk
Some people mark the passing of time by the surrounding environment. We call them seasons. The leaves turn brown and fall off, then frozen water falls for a period of time, before things get warmer and the frozen water goes away and flowers bloom and the leaves come back. We call this a year.

In her first appearence she mentions that she was an aces gymnist attending Beverly hills prep. meaning she was getting ready to go to college.

Remember, while marvel does have fictional places it also has real places. And beverly hills prep:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Hills_Preparatory_School

Actually exists.

Yeah there are mistakes.

Wolverine's adopted daughter was a new born with Franklin Richards was four or five... now she is 18, and Franklin Richards is like... what? 10? Marvel's editors aren't that hot, I guess.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I don't see an F in PIS do you?

Lulz. Keep dodging.

The cache size is something we use to describe microprocessors. I don't see a 'microprocessor' in cache size, so clearly we can also apply it to automobiles, no?

Damn, that Dodge Viper's got a huge cache! Yeah! And did you hear about it's clock speed? Jesus! Don't get me started on the front side bus.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah there are mistakes.

Wolverine's adopted daughter was a new born with Franklin Richards was four or five... now she is 18, and Franklin Richards is like... what? 10? Marvel's editors aren't that hot, I guess. Franklin richards was like 5 when he was tattletale. when he was with the power pack. Then the power pack grew up he didn't... now the power pack are kids again...

YEah its too bad there's not a geek like us working there to check for plot holes. because there are some that you could fit the moon through.

Originally posted by Soljer
Lulz. Keep dodging.

The cache size is something we use to describe microprocessors. I don't see a 'microprocessor' in cache size, so clearly we can also apply it to automobiles, no?

Damn, that Dodge Viper's got a huge cache! Yeah! And did you hear about it's clock speed? Jesus! Don't get me started on the front side bus.


I lol

Originally posted by Creshosk


YEah its too bad there's not a geek like us working there to check for plot holes. because there are some that you could fit the moon through. it's only geeks like us who care about these plotholes

Originally posted by Starscream M
it's only geeks like us who care about these plotholes

Too true

Originally posted by Mindset
Too true

Indeed. Everyone else just cares about being entertained for a short period of time.

Which, clearly, tens of thousands of people are by Origins.

Originally posted by Soljer
For one, we as a forum do NOT ignore feats as plot induced stupidity. We have a rule that allows us to argue, in context, that some feats SHOULD be disregarded, and some posters feel certain feats fall into this category. Other posters disagree. There isn't a 'master list' note at the top of the forum that says "these feats are PIS and are, therefore, unusable." What you are suggesting is, more or less "this(ese) run(s) are unusable in this forum." And anytime someone says "Wolverine did XXXXX in Origins," you cite this thread and say "nuh-uh! Not on KMC, he didn't!"

Point is, you may feel that a certain feat is PIS, another post disagrees. Our rule regarding PIS does NOT validate your position, it simply allows you to take it. The two of you can argue till the cows come home over whether Captain America should have really been able to throw his shield after an ICBM.

In a similar manner, feel free to argue in a thread that feats from Origins should be ignored because the writer is a moron who disregards continuity and characterization and personally, anally, and forcefully rapes Wolverine at every turn. There should not however be an all-encompassing rule that says "Origins? Nuh-uh."

Yes but we have examples of PIS stupidity in the Rules Section as examples of what it is. If we had a rule that allowed entire runs to be disregarded, why not used Origins as the example?

The plot is Origins is so ridiculous and out of line with the character, that we need a new rule to deal with it. It's existence doesn't make and sense. I don't see why having a rule to disregard archs for their stupidity and lake of continuity in their characterization, is so far removed from disregarding feats of a ridiculous nature that are influenced by the plot.

It is kind of like ignoring filler episodes in an anime... not sure why it is such a big deal.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes but we have examples of PIS stupidity in the Rules Section as examples of what it is. If we had a rule that allowed entire runs to be disregarded, why not used Origins as the example?

The plot is Origins is so ridiculous and out of line with the character, that we need a new rule to deal with it. It's existence doesn't make and sense. I don't see why having a rule to disregard archs for their stupidity and lake of continuity in their characterization, is so far removed from disregarding feats of a ridiculous nature that are influenced by the plot.

It is kind of like ignoring filler episodes in an anime... not sure why it is such a big deal. most PIS examples board reaches consensus on are issues of impossibility, not just because something goes against a character

ie...we rule that spiderman beating firelord is PIS because it seems to be impossible for spiderman to do the slightest damage to Firelord

we wouldnt rule something PIS because it was against spiderman's character though

Originally posted by Soljer
Indeed. Everyone else just cares about being entertained for a short period of time.

Which, clearly, tens of thousands of people are by Origins.

Most people are stupid though.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
not sure why it is such a big deal. because

1) it is hard to reach a consensus. Sure you and many others may think origins is a load of shit, but what about those who don't?

2) it is a slippery slope that opens floodgates for people to bring other things to be banned...which would not be good.

Originally posted by Soljer
Indeed. Everyone else just cares about being entertained for a short period of time.

Which, clearly, tens of thousands of people are by Origins.

If we are being honest... Most of Wolverine Origins are worth the price for the cover alone. There have been some AMAZING covers on this series. I know they say "never judge a book by it's cover" but I'm sure a causual reader faced with three Wolverine solo titles, just grabs the one that looks the best... and the die hard fans just buy it because Wolverine is in it. If it was the same story with Cyclops, it wouldn't have gotten past issue 4.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes but we have examples of PIS stupidity in the Rules Section as examples of what it is. If we had a rule that allowed entire runs to be disregarded, why not used Origins as the example?

The plot is Origins is so ridiculous and out of line with the character, that we need a new rule to deal with it. It's existence doesn't make and sense. I don't see why having a rule to disregard archs for their stupidity and lake of continuity in their characterization, is so far removed from disregarding feats of a ridiculous nature that are influenced by the plot.

It is kind of like ignoring filler episodes in an anime... not sure why it is such a big deal.

It's nothing like ignoring filler episodes. You're advocating ignoring a single 616-canon story because you don't like the way a character was portrayed.

On the other hand, filler episodes are typically ignored wholesale. Regardless of characterization or power - even if these two are spot on, the episodes are ignored. Not due to some bias, but because the story belongs to it's original author, or authors. The artist's original vision did not include these pieces of filler; they were just added to stretch things out.

Now, I could see you arguing that Wolverine's characterization does not match the 'artist's' original vision, but in this case Wolverine doesn't belong to Roy Thomas, Herb Trimpe, Len Wein, Jack Abel, Christie Scheele, or Artie Simek - pretty much everyone involved with the production of The Incredible Hulk 180. Rather, Wolverine belong to Marvel, the artist in question is an abstract collection of artists - any Wolverine writer. A group which, unfortunately, includes Way at present. Therefore, his artistic vision is just as valid as any other writers, even if I, personally, find it distasteful.

Originally posted by Mindset
Most people are stupid though.

Yup.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If we are being honest... Most of Wolverine Origins are worth the price for the cover alone. There have been some AMAZING covers on this series. I know they say "never judge a book by it's cover" but I'm sure a causual reader faced with three Wolverine solo titles, just grabs the one that looks the best... and the die hard fans just buy it because Wolverine is in it. If it was the same story with Cyclops, it wouldn't have gotten past issue 4.

Haha. A Cyclops solo. Good joke. .

Originally posted by Starscream M
because

1) it is hard to reach a consensus. Sure you and many others may think origins is a load of shit, but what about those who don't?

2) it is a slippery slope that opens floodgates for people to bring other things to be banned...which would not be good.

Anyone here think Wolverine Origins is good? Anyone here think Wolverine Origins hasn't butchered Wolverine's character? Anyone here think a war criminal who willing took part in mass murder, torture and some light genocide is in anyway in line with Wolverine's established character? None of it makes any sense. If Wolverine was any of those... why is he still walking around? He is supposed to be a hero now. Why hasn't anyone tried to apprehend him? Why hasn't he turned him self in (being a man of honor with a guilty conscious), or baring that why hasn't he killed himself samurai style? I don't think anyone would be cool with Red Skull turning all noble and figthing crime, why does Cap or Fury let Wolverine do it? It makes no sense. It should all be disregarded.

Originally posted by Soljer
Lulz. Keep dodging.

The cache size is something we use to describe microprocessors. I don't see a 'microprocessor' in cache size, so clearly we can also apply it to automobiles, no?

Damn, that Dodge Viper's got a huge cache! Yeah! And did you hear about it's clock speed? Jesus! Don't get me started on the front side bus. Fine. You wanna be that way try this on for size:



The way the rule is written it seems as if it does refer to specific events. Now then.

This part here:



I challenge to you that Wolverine doesn't use any of the honor, any of the personal code of ethics that was developed over more than thirty years of his character.

His honor his "holding back" if you will. that CIS is not exaempt from these debates.

The entire run disregards any "honor" stat that he has. It disregards his personal history. We disregard onslaught's stupidity in regards to juggernaut. It ignores events of his back story. Such as the fact that Juggernaut met Cyttorok before. Yet in Onslaught they had him meat him for the first time. Thus in roleplaying terms he failed a history check. MEANING they disregarded that knowledge, that skill, that ability for the sake of the plot.

Now then, in these various games there is also an ettiquite skill. Which this entire run disregards on wolverine that he's proven to have.

It ignores his skill, his knowledge with history. It ignores his skill and his knowledge with morals and ethics, with that in mind its the entire run that's composed of one feat, one event, one social combat after another. EACH one disregards these skills that he already has. Don't like me refering to role playing games? ITs just a way of making something more relatable. It in no way changes the fact that using knowledge is a skill.

For example a skill in debate. Using knowledge of syntax, philosophy. We do outside of roleplaying games refer to people as "skilled debaters" Regardless of wether you like it or not it is a skill. So to is manners and ettiquite. Knowing what to say and when to say it. just as knowing how to strike, and when to stirke. Skills are knowledge.

Over 30 years has this character been around. and then this arc comes out which totally disregards everything about the character.

One event occurs that ignores the characters past. Its PIS.
Another one occurs that ignores another part of the past. It too is PIS.
A third one occurs sequentially after the other two that is likewise PIS.

Eventually you string enough events together you get a story arc. Since we disegard events of PIS, we might very well wind up ignoring an entire story arc, is all it is is one event of PIS right after the other. IT totally ignores the characters history, as far as their powers, knowledge, skills and ability.


Again I'll ask you. Where does it say that PIS is limited to feats? Your false analogy is amusing. But the word FEAT still appears no where in the definition of what PIS is. regardless of what you infer from the rule.


The wolverine origins run disregards Wolverine's skills of ettiquite, of ethics, of manners. All those skills that he was proven to have over 30 years. Disregarded for the sake of the plot. Therefore, the entire ARC is PIS the ENTIRE arc is disregarded.

You disagree? You ignore the characters previous 30 years for what? one year two?

I'm sorry but 30>2

The entire arc is pis, the entire arc is ignored. plain and simple and its in the forum rules.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Fine. You wanna be that way try this on for size:



The way the rule is written it seems as if it does refer to specific events. Now then.

This part here:



I challenge to you that Wolverine doesn't use any of the honor, any of the personal code of ethics that was developed over more than thirty years of his character.

His honor his "holding back" if you will. that CIS is not exaempt from these debates.


The entire run disregards any "honor" stat that he has. It disregards his personal history. We disregard onslaught's stupidity in regards to juggernaut. It ignores events of his back story. Such as the fact that Juggernaut met Cyttorok before. Yet in Onslaught they had him meat him for the first time. Thus in roleplaying terms he failed a history check. MEANING they disregarded that knowledge, that skill, that ability for the sake of the plot.

Now then, in these various games there is also an ettiquite skill. Which this entire run disregards on wolverine that he's proven to have.

It ignores his skill, his knowledge with history. It ignores his skill and his knowledge with morals and ethics, with that in mind its the entire run that's composed of one feat, one event, one social combat after another. EACH one disregards these skills that he already has. Don't like me refering to role playing games? ITs just a way of making something more relatable. It in no way changes the fact that using knowledge is a skill.

For example a skill in debate. Using knowledge of syntax, philosophy. We do outside of roleplaying games refer to people as "skilled debaters" Regardless of wether you like it or not it is a skill. So to is manners and ettiquite. Knowing what to say and when to say it. just as knowing how to strike, and when to stirke. Skills are knowledge.

Over 30 years has this character been around. and then this arc comes out which totally disregards everything about the character.

One event occurs that ignores the characters past. Its PIS.
Another one occurs that ignores another part of the past. It too is PIS.
A third one occurs sequentially after the other two that is likewise PIS.

Eventually you string enough events together you get a story arc. Since we disegard events of PIS, we might very well wind up ignoring an entire story arc, is all it is is one event of PIS right after the other. IT totally ignores the characters history, as far as their powers, knowledge, skills and ability.


Again I'll ask you. Where does it say that PIS is limited to feats? Your false analogy is amusing. But the word FEAT still appears no where in the definition of what PIS is. regardless of what you infer from the rule.


The wolverine origins run disregards Wolverine's skills of ettiquite, of ethics, of manners. All those skills that he was proven to have over 30 years. Disregarded for the sake of the plot. Therefore, the entire ARC is PIS the ENTIRE arc is disregarded.

You disagree? You ignore the characters previous 30 years for what? one year two?

I'm sorry but 30>2

The entire arc is pis, the entire arc is ignored. plain and simple and its in the forum rules.

clapping

/bow

From your own quotes. PIS is defined as an instance of jobbing to an opponent.

If you feel that the entire run of Origins is an instance of Wolverine jobbing to an opponent, feel free to argue that anytime someone brings up Origins.

Doesn't mean the run is ignored wholesale.

I don't have much issues with Origins...admittedly Im a VERY casual fan of Wolverines.

Anyone here think a war criminal who willing took part in mass murder, torture and some light genocide is in anyway in line with Wolverine's established character?

--- redemption is a key theme in many famous literary characters, don't see why it would be so weird for Logan

He is supposed to be a hero now. Why hasn't anyone tried to apprehend him?

--- how many people know about his past? he barely knew much of it himself...what with that amnesia and stuff.

Why hasn't he turned him self in (being a man of honor with a guilty conscious), or baring that why hasn't he killed himself samurai style?

--- killing himself doesn't do society much good, if it is even possible. He can redeem his crimes much more practically by protecting innocents and defeating dangerous villains. What good does he accomplish by offing himself, other than maybe get a smug sense of false honor and satisfaction?

It makes no sense.

---- thats your opinion. nothing more, nothing less.

Alright, guys. I dunno about all of you, but I'm off from work tomorrow, considering it's the fourth of July. So...I'm gonna finish Snake in the Eagle's Shadow, go pick up my girl from the airport, and then do nothing but have fun and get ****ed up for the next 48-72 hours or so. No hard feelings, I've had a good time discussing this with you, and you know I love you, .

Assuming this thread isn't eighty pages by the time I return (and considering it's already five, that's not too unlikely), I may take some time to discuss this with you guys some more then. Have a great weekend, everyone.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I don't have much issues with Origins...admittedly Im a VERY casual fan of Wolverines.

Anyone here think a war criminal who willing took part in mass murder, torture and some light genocide is in anyway in line with Wolverine's established character?

--- redemption is a key theme in many famous literary characters, don't see why it would be so weird for Logan

He is supposed to be a hero now. Why hasn't anyone tried to apprehend him?

--- how many people know about his past? he barely knew much of it himself...what with that amnesia and stuff.

Why hasn't he turned him self in (being a man of honor with a guilty conscious), or baring that why hasn't he killed himself samurai style?

--- killing himself doesn't do society much good, if it is even possible. He can redeem his crimes much more practically by protecting innocents and defeating dangerous villains. What good does he accomplish by offing himself, other than maybe get a smug sense of false honor and satisfaction?

It makes no sense.

---- thats your opinion. nothing more, nothing less.

I pretty much addressed this in my original post. The stuff he did is so awful that the only why for him to even come close to redemption would be some grand heroic gesture that ended in his death... and it would have to be something that saved a shit load of lives. I could work with it if Wolverine was written as a guy with a death sentence who felt he needed and deserved to die... but who's healing factor prevented seppuku, so he jumped into dangerous heroics hoping for a heroic death and kept escalating the danger level, moving form a soldier, to a government agent, to the X-Men, and finally to the Avengers. But that isn't how he is written.

Samurai believe that seppuku is the method of regaining lost honor... it is a very honorable death for the samurai and allows them to save face.

Seriously though. Nothing in Origins in line with with Wolverine's character. Nothing is in line with any of the seven codes of Bushido. Wolverine in Origins is a worm of a man.... who someone made a complete 180 and now goes around lecturing villains for not being half as bad as he was... then he tries to kill them.

Originally posted by Soljer
From your own quotes. PIS is defined as an instance of jobbing to an opponent.

If you feel that the entire run of Origins is an instance of Wolverine jobbing to an opponent, feel free to argue that anytime someone brings up Origins.

Doesn't mean the run is ignored wholesale. if each instance, and I mean each and every instance is PIS that ignore thirty years of character history. then each and every instance of PIS will be ignored. Eventually the whole run is ignored.

So regardless of whether or not you think entire runs should be disregarded, eventully in the manner they will be.

Because a plot IS nothing more than one event happeneing after another until they stop.

Time itself is nothing but a series of instances, of events, happening subsequently. One right after the other. As I type each letter, its a moment in time. as you read each word, its a moment in time. The event of writing, the event of reading. The entire time we spend on a message board. One event, one thread, one post, one paragraph, one sentence, one letter. one after the other.

So too is a plot nothing more than one event right after the other. Ironman, Black bolt, The avengers the x-men. nothing but a sequence of events for world war hulk. a series of fights. a series of encounters. all together these events become the story arc.

If all the events, all the instances all the moments in time are stupid. they are all disregarded. til eventually there is no more arc. no more events. the entire arc gets disregarded.

If this thread is moved. It is stating already that all the events are bad. each is to be ignored. you argue that they should each be ignored in turn. so they will be, because thats how it happens.

All of origins is bad. All of origins is to be discarded. Since not all of origins is used in any fight, just the parts that are used will be discarded.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Seriously though. Nothing in Origins in line with with Wolverine's character. Nothing is in line with any of the seven codes of Bushido. Wolverine in Origins is a worm of a man.... who someone made a complete 180 and now goes around lecturing villains for not being half as bad as he was... then he tries to kill them.

Originally posted by Starscream M


I know, WTF, right?

Originally posted by Creshosk
if each instance, and I mean each and every instance is PIS that ignore thirty years of character history. then each and every instance of PIS will be ignored. Eventually the whole run is ignored.

So regardless of whether or not you think entire runs should be disregarded, eventully in the manner they will be.

Because a plot IS nothing more than one event happeneing after another until they stop.


And if that's the case, then there is no need for any new rule, we can use the existing PIS rules, and you can argue every panel of Origins falls into that category. Doesn't mean there's a new Mod-instated forum rule saying "Origins no es bueno."

EDIT: Seriously now. *gets back to Snake Fist style*.

Originally posted by Soljer
And if that's the case, then there is no need for any new rule, we can use the existing PIS rules, and you can argue every panel of Origins falls into that category. Doesn't mean there's a new Mod-instated forum rule saying "Origins no es bueno."

EDIT: Seriously now. *gets back to Snake Fist style*. Well this thread can be used more to call attention to the fact that its all PIS.

It doesn't have to be in the rules officially.

Origins, undermines Wolverine's character. It destroys every value and believe system the character has been attributed with over the years... but expects us to believe he is still that character. It turns Wolverine into a joke; into a hypocrite that has no legs to stand on.

Technically you're not a hypocrite if you no longer do what you once did. People who overcame their personal problems and seek to warn of the dangers they themselves faced, for example are not hypocrites.

If you touch a hot stove and burn your hand, you are not a hypocrite for preventing others from doing the same.

There is nothing hypocritical about turning on that what you once were. its only hypocritical if you denounce it, and then continue to do it yourself.

The only thing that can excuse such a thing is an addiction. If you find yourself addicted to a drug, but denounce drugs as evil. So long as you truly do not want to be doing it you are not hypocritical.

If Hilter went around to high schools to lecture about intolerance and violence in the day, and at night put on spandex and went out to stop acts of violence and intolerance by beating the tar (and occasionally killing people), everyone would be like "WTF Hitler, you where responsible for the deaths of millions of people? And now you go around and kill petty gang bangers, even though you where responsible for mass genocide? What the hell, dude? Where do you get off?" They wouldn't ask him to join the Avengers... I don't think.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If Hilter went around to high schools to lecture about intolerance and violence in the day, and at night put on spandex and went out to stop acts of violence and intolerance by beating the tar (and occasionally killing people), everyone would be like "WTF Hitler, you where responsible for the deaths of millions of people? And now you go around and kill petty gang bangers, even though you where responsible for mass genocide? What the hell, dude? Where do you get off?" They wouldn't ask him to join the Avengers... I don't think. And does wolverine go around killing petty gang bangers? or does what he kills be soldiers of different sorts? Hydra and the hand for example.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Technically you're not a hypocrite if you no longer do what you once did. People who overcame their personal problems and seek to warn of the dangers they themselves faced, for example are not hypocrites.

If you touch a hot stove and burn your hand, you are not a hypocrite for preventing others from doing the same.

There is nothing hypocritical about turning on that what you once were. its only hypocritical if you denounce it, and then continue to do it yourself.

The only thing that can excuse such a thing is an addiction. If you find yourself addicted to a drug, but denounce drugs as evil. So long as you truly do not want to be doing it you are not hypocritical.

He hasn't really stopped, so much as changed his venue. He used to kill innocent people en mass... now he kills villains in bulk.

He might not be a hypocrite, but he isn't exactly 100 persent credible.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And does wolverine go around killing petty gang bangers? or does what he kills be soldiers of different sorts? Hydra and the hand for example.

Well... usually the gang bangers have committed a serious crime to invoke Wolverine's wraith, but my previous post was funnier without me clarifying.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Well... usually the gang bangers have committed a serious crime to invoke Wolverine's wraith, but my previous post was funnier without me clarifying. So do you think Hitler would prefer yellow spandex?

Originally posted by Creshosk
So do you think Hitler would prefer yellow spandex?

In my head I imagined him dressed like the Phantom.

http://i14.tinypic.com/5zp3pg2.jpg

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In my head I imagined him dressed like the Phantom.

http://i14.tinypic.com/5zp3pg2.jpg Bright friggin purple huh? Did he keep the mustache?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Bright friggin purple huh? Did he keep the mustache?

What do you think?

Sweet. And what does he call himself?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Sweet. And what does he call himself?

He calls himself Batman. He isn't very creative, that's why he couldn't even get into art school.

lol

I love how I derailed my own thread.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He calls himself Batman. He isn't very creative, that's why he couldn't even get into art school. http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/hitler.jpg

Well his paintings were still better than Liefeld's work.. Yes. that's right. Liefeld is worse than Hitler.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Note: This might need to be moved to the Comic Book Forum, but it mostly concerns the Versus Forum and debates, so I thought I'd post it here first.

I was wondering if we, as a board, can vote Wolverine Origins out of continuity? Just decided to out right ignore everything that takes place with in? We have the PIS and CIS rules to ignore isolated feats, but we really should have something in place to ignore entire runs when they do nothing but tarnish the history of the characters involved... and what better run to start with than Wolverine Origins? Wolverine Origins is a train wreak, it does nothing but rape Wolverine's character and we should make an example of it by banishing it form continuity. Can we put it to a vote or get a Mod ruling?

No story before Wolverine Origins has managed to butcher a character on the same level Way has with Wolverine. Not a single worth while thing has come from this series. Seriously, it is an outrage. It's almost like the point of Origins is to disregard every heroic character trait Wolverine has, to completely destroy his character... and turn him into a mass murder, a torturer, and even a war criminal responsible for the execution of women and children. Where is the man of honor? Gone. There is virtually no ties between the character established in previous Wolverine stories and the man present in Origins.

Wolverine's past as established in Origins makes him a villain ,and one that his significantly worse then most of Marvel's big bads. Even if I'm supposed to buy that he has reformed, feels guilty about his past and wants to redeem himself for his actions (which has aways been Wolverine's stick), the stuff he has done is so heinous, that nothing short of death will suffice. If he had any sort of honor (and considering he supposedly lives by Bushido... ) he'd kill himself out right or turn himself into the authorities for his war crimes and be executed. Because of Origins, Wolverine loses all his credibility. How can someone lecture Magneto to his face when he has done things far, far, FAR worse?


Nothing in the story meshes at all. It is completely out of character for Wolverine, and disregards every character driven moment in Wolverine's past. I can't imagine why anyone would allow Wolverine to walk around free considering his past. If Hitler survived in Marvel and started wearing spandex and fighting crime because he felt bad about what he did, do you think Captain America would team up with him? No, he'd kick his ass all over the place. No one would tolerate it... why do they tolerate Wolverine?

It's not like he is even a puppet on strings either, nothing thus far suggest he was anything other than a willing participate... he even gives orders to people. Before Origins we all knew Logan had done some shady stuff int the past, but it was all under the pretences that he wasn't in control of his actions; that he was being brain washed and mind controlled, feed false information and manipulated. He certainly seems pretty in-control to me... and how does that play well with what's been established before?

Wolverine was always supposed to be a man of honor, one prone to fits of extreme violence, but a man of honor none the less. Where is that Wolverine? Where is the fallen Samurai?

The whole run is so out of character, for Wolverine. I think we as a forum need to address this with a forum ruling to banish Wolverine Origins from continuity, or a new rule to address when a character has been so miss handled across an entire arch not just a single incident.

Is it canon?

Originally posted by Creshosk
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/hitler.jpg

Well his paintings were still better than Liefeld's work.. Yes. that's right. Liefeld is worse than Hitler.

Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
Is it canon?

Saddly, yes.

I'm off to bed now.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Origins, undermines Wolverine's character. It destroys every value and believe system the character has been attributed with over the years... but expects us to believe he is still that character. It turns Wolverine into a joke; into a hypocrite that has no legs to stand on.

Erm ....Wolverine's 'character' did not need Origins to, what did you say, turn him into a joke, a hypocrite with no legs to stand on.

Various writers for Logan have done that over the years, particularly in the 80s and 90s.

However, you do have a point in that comic characters are merely pictorial fiction ....a writer can come and make Superman able to blow away planets, and then another one comes and makes him strain to lift a car. There is always the danger of new writers distorting a character, and that is what one has to face when they are dealing with ...well ....pictorial fiction.

The only danger in writing off entire runs as PIS is that it leads to what many people have already mentioned ...a slippery slope! Before you know it, people will be trying to cut off entire sections of a character's history either because it makes their favorite character look bad, or it makes a character that they do not like appear strong.

For instance, there are a number of Wolverine portrayals that I find pure cr@p ....literally. And to be honest the only reason Origins stands out is because it is recent ....some of the stuff i have from the 80s and (early) 90s should be classified as comedy! But i have never said it should be thrown out ....I just make fun of it when it pops up in the forum and try to logically break it down.

Anyways, I see your point (and you honestly have a good point). It is just that it would lead to a major slippery slope, and all characters (including Wolverine, even excluding the Origins run) have major inconsistencies.

Different writers bring different themes, and while for the most part it is natural evolution in a character's base-line, every now and then some person will come by and just jar things.

It's as if Daniel Way is mentally retarded or something. I mean it's been like this since he started writing Wolverine after Millar's run. Even though House of M was an alternate reality, there's still no Way Fury should have owned him like that..calling him boy and such nonsense. Even in House of M, Wolverine was older than Fury. It was as if Daniel Way thought Wolverine would be better if he had S.H.I.E.L.D training behind him. As if his time with Ogun wasn't nearly enough or something. Then someone finally told him about Wolverine's past and he thought he could make up for it by having Wolverine fight Silver Samurai and speak Japanese. Yeah...then Origins comes along and we are treated to a fight between Wolverine and some old Lady in the White House..seriously, you can't make this up. He roughs her up demanded who was behind Weapon X. As having all of his memories back reminded him of what he already knew - a secretive organization captured him and forceably bonded his skeleton with Adamantium - but he doesn't know who or why. Hmmm...funny, the only thing he remembered about Weapon X was how mad he was at them. lol..twenty years ago, he was doing his best to put his past behind him. Now he's out for revenge against Weapon X for what they did to him even though he knew what they did before he got his memories back? Oh that makes sense. Also, he seems to take Claremont's best plots, tear them to pieces and regurgitate them into some twisted nonsensical, out-of-line way. Like the Maramasa blade - Wolverine had it forged so that he could take himself out, or something..then he goes and grabs it and carries it around with him. Which of course makes sense if you're out for revenge. I mean, if you were going to kill a bunch of baddies, and there was a weapon that nobody knew about that could put you down for good even though you can heal virtually any other injury, wouldn't YOU carry that thing around with you. Of course! What else would you do? I mean, it's not like he could have just stopped by the X-mansion and given to to Cyclops before that. He had to carry it around with him and use it on a bunch of robots and then take Nuke out with it. Because you know..it's just not enough to have six of the sharpest blades housed in your forearms..you gotta have a giant red sword that can kill you just for kicks. Also, the whole thing with Seraph was just painful to read. Here you have the whole Wolverine meets Captain America story - something that was special when it was originally conceived by Claremont. A defining moment in Logan's life where he helps out Captain America using the skills he learned from Ogun. At this point, we could definitely call Wolverine a hero. Well, I guess not anymore since he betrayed Bucky and Cap. I mean, the whole story that Claremont originally thought of just makes Wolverine look like a slimeball villain as Srank mentioned. He was a hero when he met Cap and it should stay that way. Who does Way think he is making him into some creep. Besides, why would Cap ever trust him again after that? Why wouldn't Cap warn the X-men? Why wouldn't S.H.E.I.L.D.? You know..I have a funny feeling that all of Way's work will be dealt with somehow by Marvel..then again maybe I'm an optimist.

Also, what happened to Wolverine's Stealth ability? He has to set places on fire just to break into banks next door. Also, he uses an axe to break through the concrete even though he has the claws. Makes sense to me! Then there's Dakken...what a horrible mess of a character. He's some New Kids on the Block reject with ugly purple hair that pawns Wolverine by magically being in the place that Wolverine isn't looking. All without super speed or invisibility. It's a skill he learned from the Master...who apparently knows some combat techniques that have never been utilized by anyone else. No one knows about this magical skill of being where a person isn't looking. Not Ogun, Stick, Elektra, Black Panther, Captain America. Shang Chi, or Iron Fist have demonstrated this ability..but this purple 80's freak learned it from Romulus who is a super baddy no one has ever heard of yet it powerless to stop Apocalypse from messing with Wolverine and Sabretooth. Yeah sure....with all of the Villians the X-men have crossed, you would think Professor X or someone would actually know about Romulus. You think they would have faced him before but no...he just shows up when no one is looking because he has the skill of being in the place where no one is watching. Yet, at any given time, he can power up Sabretooth or Wild Child...it just doesn't add up at all. The continuity just doesn't' allow for such a big character to fit.

The Deadpool fight was also total PIS. Pool displayed almost no h2h skills and was made to look like some failed Van Damn double or something. The only display of h2h that I can remember is him flipping Wolverine over his back. No fancy kicks, flips or anything just explosive grenades and ACME gimmicks. It was as if the writers for Wiley Coyote spent two weeks huffing gas and then decided to write the plot for the last arc of Origins.

And the worst part is, it's not over..Wolverine is just a loser scum mass-murderer that no respectable hero would ever tolerate. Apparently, Professor X looks kindly upon war criminal-sickos. Yep..Logans killed hundreds of women and children..he'd be perfect for my dream. Will Wolverine be a sexual offender by the end of this thing? It wouldn't surprise me at all...

Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Will Wolverine be a sexual offender by the end of this thing? It wouldn't surprise me at all... the way hes drawn in Origins, he totally looks like a child molester.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Saddly, yes.

I'm off to bed now.

If it is canon, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be taken in consideration.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Dum Dum koyed Logan by shooting him in the back of the skull with a hand gun. Everyone in Origins is all over the place.

And Way is the guy who wrote Wolverine taking a nuke point blank in Venom... a bit of a discrepancy.


Eh

Then just treat it is a low end feat for Wolverine. It happens.

Originally posted by Soljer
Origins is an abomination. No one argues that fact.

I do.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I was wondering if we, as a board, can vote Wolverine Origins out of continuity?

No.

You don't like the story? then stop reading it.

This arc also starts the hole thing about Wolverine haters. They love to bring up the stupid arguement about someone with a gun will beat Logan by putting a bullet in his brain. However in past arcs Wolverine has taken on army's with many guns and kicked thier asses.

Yeah, I can't stand Origins and haven't read any of it. It's by far the worst story of Wolverine ever made. I wish that this arc can be thrown out of KMC and Marvel. But however if this happens than we might as well throw out other arcs that doesn't portray any other character well.

Originally posted by Endrict Nuul
This arc also starts the hole thing about Wolverine haters. They love to bring up the stupid arguement about someone with a gun will beat Logan by putting a bullet in his brain. However in past arcs Wolverine has taken on army's with many guns and kicked thier asses.

Yeah, I can't stand Origins and haven't read any of it. It's by far the worst story of Wolverine ever made. I wish that this arc can be thrown out of KMC and Marvel. But however if this happens than we might as well throw out other arcs that doesn't portray any other character well. Like say, Wildcat from the JSA, who nearly single-handedly defeated the Inustice Society in a rampage, and defeated someone with the spear of destiny, but sometimes a group of MA's will rough him up?

Every character has their good and bad.

Originally posted by Endrict Nuul
stupid arguement about someone with a gun will beat Logan by putting a bullet in his brain.

You talking about the Deadpool thing? why wouldn't having a bullet bounce around inside his skull, ripping his brain to pieces, knock him out?

Originally posted by Scoobless
You talking about the Deadpool thing? why wouldn't having a bullet bounce around inside his skull, ripping his brain to pieces, knock him out?




A well written Logan wouldn't have let that happen. Wolverine haters make it sound so easy for someone with a gun to pull this off. But this Logan in Origins arc is poorly written.

I honestly like Logan best when he's more human like that, my favorite arc is probably from Frank Miller's run.

I'm against this, after following origins for a little bit I dont see whats so out of character for wolverine.

Wasnt the whole reason he was mad at weapon x and others is because they used him as a weapon?

so ofcourse in origins wouldnt they show how/when they used him as a weapon?

maybe I'm not fully understanding this (I havent read it in a year or so) so could you explain it to me.

Originally posted by Scoobless
You talking about the Deadpool thing? why wouldn't having a bullet bounce around inside his skull, ripping his brain to pieces, knock him out?

Because its physically impossible to get the bullet into his brainpan in the first place. People might not be aware of this but there is bone behind peoples eyes.
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200410/r34321_85394.jpg

The brain is totally encased in bone to protect it, there aren't any large gaps that don't have bone in the way of some kind. The largest hole in the skull is the where the spine is. The skull is like a vault, and in Wolverine's case its like an adamantium vault. There's NO way to get a bullet into his brain.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Note: This might need to be moved to the Comic Book Forum, but it mostly concerns the Versus Forum and debates, so I thought I'd post it here first.

I was wondering if we, as a board, can vote Wolverine Origins out of continuity? Just decided to out right ignore everything that takes place with in? We have the PIS and CIS rules to ignore isolated feats, but we really should have something in place to ignore entire runs when they do nothing but tarnish the history of the characters involved... and what better run to start with than Wolverine Origins? Wolverine Origins is a train wreak, it does nothing but rape Wolverine's character and we should make an example of it by banishing it form continuity. Can we put it to a vote or get a Mod ruling?

No story before Wolverine Origins has managed to butcher a character on the same level Way has with Wolverine. Not a single worth while thing has come from this series. Seriously, it is an outrage. It's almost like the point of Origins is to disregard every heroic character trait Wolverine has, to completely destroy his character... and turn him into a mass murder, a torturer, and even a war criminal responsible for the execution of women and children. Where is the man of honor? Gone. There is virtually no ties between the character established in previous Wolverine stories and the man present in Origins.

Wolverine's past as established in Origins makes him a villain ,and one that his significantly worse then most of Marvel's big bads. Even if I'm supposed to buy that he has reformed, feels guilty about his past and wants to redeem himself for his actions (which has aways been Wolverine's stick), the stuff he has done is so heinous, that nothing short of death will suffice. If he had any sort of honor (and considering he supposedly lives by Bushido... ) he'd kill himself out right or turn himself into the authorities for his war crimes and be executed. Because of Origins, Wolverine loses all his credibility. How can someone lecture Magneto to his face when he has done things far, far, FAR worse?


Nothing in the story meshes at all. It is completely out of character for Wolverine, and disregards every character driven moment in Wolverine's past. I can't imagine why anyone would allow Wolverine to walk around free considering his past. If Hitler survived in Marvel and started wearing spandex and fighting crime because he felt bad about what he did, do you think Captain America would team up with him? No, he'd kick his ass all over the place. No one would tolerate it... why do they tolerate Wolverine?

It's not like he is even a puppet on strings either, nothing thus far suggest he was anything other than a willing participate... he even gives orders to people. Before Origins we all knew Logan had done some shady stuff int the past, but it was all under the pretences that he wasn't in control of his actions; that he was being brain washed and mind controlled, feed false information and manipulated. He certainly seems pretty in-control to me... and how does that play well with what's been established before?

Wolverine was always supposed to be a man of honor, one prone to fits of extreme violence, but a man of honor none the less. Where is that Wolverine? Where is the fallen Samurai?

The whole run is so out of character, for Wolverine. I think we as a forum need to address this with a forum ruling to banish Wolverine Origins from continuity, or a new rule to address when a character has been so miss handled across an entire arch not just a single incident.

i've read like, two issues of origins, so i'm really in no position to dictate... its up to the users of the forum to decide, imo...

if its canon, though, i dont see many people agreeing with you...

Then can someone make a poll?


like

Agrees with, unsure and against

Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
I'm against this, after following origins for a little bit I dont see whats so out of character for wolverine.

Wasnt the whole reason he was mad at weapon x and others is because they used him as a weapon?

so ofcourse in origins wouldnt they show how/when they used him as a weapon?

maybe I'm not fully understanding this (I havent read it in a year or so) so could you explain it to me.

See, the problem is, Wolverine was always portrayed as being USED as a weapon against his will. In Origins, however, he willingly tortures and murders people. Look what he did to Nuke - for all the vengeance he's after for what Weapon X did to him, he's sure hypocritical - he thinks the people who made him a weapon should die - then he surely should die for doing the same to Nuke. The essence of Logan was that he was a bezerker with the heart of a Samurai - the warrior who never conquered his rages but ALWAYS fought the savage killing machine inside of him. That was the difference between him and Creed. Now, however, it seems like Vic and Logan were truly cut from the same cloth. Actually, it would make Creed better as a person because at least he admits it and doesn't act like he never did such things.

Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
See, the problem is, Wolverine was always portrayed as being USED as a weapon against his will. In Origins, however, he willingly tortures and murders people. Look what he did to Nuke - for all the vengeance he's after for what Weapon X did to him, he's sure hypocritical - he thinks the people who made him a weapon should die - then he surely should die for doing the same to Nuke. The essence of Logan was that he was a bezerker with the heart of a Samurai - the warrior who never conquered his rages but ALWAYS fought the savage killing machine inside of him. That was the difference between him and Creed. Now, however, it seems like Vic and Logan were truly cut from the same cloth. Actually, it would make Creed better as a person because at least he admits it and doesn't act like he never did such things.
I thought he didnt know what he was doing usually they filled his head with information and once he was done with his mission they brain wipd hi mand filled it with different information, and once he got his memories back he hated himself for everyting he's done

Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
I thought he didnt know what he was doing usually they filled his head with information and once he was done with his mission they brain wipd hi mand filled it with different information, and once he got his memories back he hated himself for everyting he's done

He was being manipulated, but he was in control. Contradictory to what's been shown of how Weapon-X uses him in the past where he isn't even conscious of what's doing - he's just being controlled. Like how he murdered that Senator and didn't even realize until he saw it on the news. Why would he hate himself if he wasn't in control? Seriously, if this is a brainwashing thing similar to what the Hand and Hydra did to him then Way needs to make that clear.

Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
I thought he didnt know what he was doing usually they filled his head with information and once he was done with his mission they brain wipd hi mand filled it with different information, and once he got his memories back he hated himself for everyting he's done That's the pre-origins explination. Origins establishes him as doing these things willingly without being told the information. Origins takes a dump on all the ideals people had of wolverine. and all of his past. that whole thing with epsilon red is not in the toilet due to what's gone on in origins.

Before he'd do things after being brainwashed and then gets mind wiped.
Now he does these things without the brainwashing.

Before: "Oh, bad men made me do bad things."
Now: "I AM the bad man that enjoys doing bad things."

Plus the way it tarnishes other people. like Wyldchild suddenly he was a nazi. MAde deadpool take minutes to heal minor damage that he healed in seconds from greater damage. and those are just two examples.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It takes before Whedon's Astonishing.... or maye after... where the hell does Astonishing fit? Origins happens pretty much right after HoM. Issues 1-15 take please before Loebs run on Wolverine and 16-26 (minus flash back issues, take place afterwards.

... maybe?

the last astonishing run fits in betweem x-men 204 and messiah complex...

and yes, its canon.


also, ive talked this over with badabing, and i'm honestly against disregarding entire runs... unless marvel says they arent 616, that is...

if we disregard one run, that opens us up to a very slippery slope, hell, there are arcs i hate that i'd want disregarded, but thats not fair to the fans who actually like those arcs, and the fact that until stated otherwise, its canon...

so its a vote against disregarding runs, from me...

Originally posted by Creshosk
That's the pre-origins explination. Origins establishes him as doing these things willingly without being told the information. Origins takes a dump on all the ideals people had of wolverine. and all of his past. that whole thing with epsilon red is not in the toilet due to what's gone on in origins.

Before he'd do things after being brainwashed and then gets mind wiped.
Now he does these things without the brainwashing.

Before: "Oh, bad men made me do bad things."
Now: "I AM the bad man that enjoys doing bad things."

Plus the way it tarnishes other people. like Wyldchild suddenly he was a nazi. MAde deadpool take minutes to heal minor damage that he healed in seconds from greater damage. and those are just two examples. no, I remember in one issue (against omega red I think) where they show that after every mission they take him in and alter his memory, at least im pretty sure.

Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
no, I remember in one issue (against omega red I think) where they show that after every mission they take him in and alter his memory, at least im pretty sure.

Alter his memory or not, he was in control while committing the acts. Mind-wiping someone after the fact doesn't grant someone a pardon from the guilt of committing that act while fully in control of one's own actions.

Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
no, I remember in one issue (against omega red I think) where they show that after every mission they take him in and alter his memory, at least im pretty sure. That was in the 90s when they first introduced Omega Red. Origins doesn't have him doing that. even during the confrontation with Omega Red around WO#8 they used a few snippets of the actual mission which seemed to be lifted from the 90s story around X-Men v2#6 or so...

Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Alter his memory or not, he was in control while committing the acts. Mind-wiping someone after the fact doesn't grant someone a pardon from the guilt of committing that act while fully in control of one's own actions. well wolverine wasnt to proud of himself either, I think thats the reason he hates himself so much.

You know, I'm tired of people using a false claim as a defense. No, if you do it for one person you don't HAVE to do it for everytone else. no one is holding a gun to your head. its NOT a slippery slope until it happens.

Each instance of disregarding a run CAN be handled on an individual basis. So quit equivocating with that damned "Oh its a slippery slope" BS. Its a weak cop out argument that's invalid due to the supposition of necessity being false.

Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
well wolverine wasnt to proud of himself either, I think thats the reason he hates himself so much. He wasn't prouds of himself preorigins. but during origins when he was doing the things he was fine with it. Have you been reading the run?

Originally posted by Creshosk
You know, I'm tired of people using a false claim as a defense. No, if you do it for one person you don't HAVE to do it for everytone else. no one is holding a gun to your head. its NOT a slippery slope until it happens.

Each instance of disregarding a run CAN be handled on an individual basis. So quit equivocating with that damned "Oh its a slippery slope" BS. Its a weak cop out argument that's invalid due to the supposition of necessity being false.

pr1983

Originally posted by Creshosk
That was in the 90s when they first introduced Omega Red. Origins doesn't have him doing that. even during the confrontation with Omega Red around WO#8 they used a few snippets of the actual mission which seemed to be lifted from the 90s story around X-Men v2#6 or so... they talk about it in issue 7 of origins

Originally posted by Creshosk
He wasn't prouds of himself preorigins. but during origins when he was doing the things he was fine with it. Have you been reading the run? I stopped a couple of months ago due to he shop closing down (last one I read was him going afte daken, then his fight with deadpool)

Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
they talk about it in issue 7 of origins

That issue was farther ahead in future, more then twenty years after WW2 when he was actually an official member of Weapon X.

Originally posted by Raoul
pr1983 I'm just tired of people banding the phrase "slippery slope" around improperly. One does NOT lead to another. To say that it does is to commit the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Its like saying that legalizing marijuana will lead to a slippery slope of legalizing the other illegal drugs. No, the other harder drugs are different and are more damaging. So its a false claim to say that one will lead to the other if there's no necessitation for it to lead to the other.

"Liking the color blue is a slippery slope to liking the color yellow, because you'll like blue green next, and then just green, and that leads to liking yellow green..."

That's how absurd it looks to me.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That issue was farther ahead in future, more then twenty years after WW2 when he was actually an official member of Weapon X. oh ok, and what was happening to him prior to the with nuke

Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
they talk about it in issue 7 of origins Yeah, I know when he fought omega red in origins.. Are you aware that my favorite character in comics is Jubilee? Do you know when she appeared in Origins?

That's right.. Omega red impaled her. I know what happened in the issue. Doesn't change that DURING the heinous acts he was NOT regretting it.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm just tired of people banding the phrase "slippery slope" around improperly. One does NOT lead to another. To say that it does is to commit the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Its like saying that legalizing marijuana will lead to a slippery slope of legalizing the other illegal drugs. No, the other harder drugs are different and are more damaging. So its a false claim to say that one will lead to the other if there's no necessitation for it to lead to the other.

"Liking the color blue is a slippery slope to liking the color yellow, because you'll like blue green next, and then just green, and that leads to liking yellow green..."

That's how absurd it looks to me.

if we allow this, every comic becomes fair game.

what if the wolverine fans decide they don't like astonishing x-men under whedon, because of bad logan characterisation?

you think me, of all people, would even entertain disregarding that run?

it has to be fair accross the board, is what i'm saying, and i believe the term 'slippery slope' was a pretty accurate description, too...

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah, I know when he fought omega red in origins.. Are you aware that my favorite character in comics is Jubilee? Do you know when she appeared in Origins?

That's right.. Omega red impaled her. I know what happened in the issue. Doesn't change that DURING the heinous acts he was NOT regretting it. well thats the thing wasnt he being brainwashed so ofcourse he wouldnt be regretting it

Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
oh ok, and what was happening to him prior to the with nuke

So far as I can tell nothing. He was in control.

Yeah, as much as I want to have this happen, to be fair to everyone this shouldn't happen. Then the next arc removed is WWH from KMC etc....

Originally posted by Raoul
if we allow this, every comic becomes fair game.every comic already is fair game. every comic is simply a collection of events, the ones in question are already subject to being possible PIS. The comic which spiderman fights Firelord is already discarded.

Originally posted by Raoul
what if the wolverine fans decide they don't like astonishing x-men under whedon, because of bad logan characterisation?You could probably used a better example. AS is I rather liked Logan's portrayal in AXM under whedon's run. His interaction with Armor is good stuff.

Do you have a better example to prove your point? because using Wolverine with someone whom appreciates wolverine doesn't prove your point really.

And people already brush off parts of WWH as PIS so that's not a good example to use either.

Originally posted by Raoul
you think me, of all people, would even entertain disregarding that run? I don't see who would. Wolverine was good in that run. Hell, he survived reentry and impact with the denser planet. Wolverine fans disregarding that just doesn't seem likely.

Originally posted by Raoul
it has to be fair accross the board, is what i'm saying, and i believe the term 'slippery slope' was a pretty accurate description, too... Its not is the problem. Each case can be handled individually for reasons which would be discussed. There is nothing that says that you HAVE to disregard the next run that's optioned. No one is holding a gun to your head. Each one has to come up under its own merits.

This run is PIS for reasons I already described. He doesn't use the skills that he was established to have in his 30+ years of existence in this run. That clearly falls under the PIS rule. So this one clearly is a viable canidate.

So no, slippery slope is a BAD phrase to use.

You like Blue? Next thing you'l be likeing yellow!

Saying things like that is the slippery slope argument...

YOU are committing the slippery slope fallacy by saying that its a slippery slope. THAT is the problem. By saying it opens the gateway to others YOU are commiting the fallacy. Not the people making the proposition.

THAT is the problem.