Silver surfer/Star dust vs Superman/Thor

janus77

Surfer is hundereds of times faster than Thor, this is meant to be CIS free. no way is Thor even in the battle, if Surfer isn't jobbing.

Surfer can and does wipe the floor with Thor. he can and has trapped Mjolnir away from Thor, he can and has synthesised Odinforce (for BRB), thus he can manipulate Mjolnir to at the least rebound its energies (which will never hit him anyway).

SD cannot be hurt/killed by mjolnir/Stormbreaker. Superman's got nothing beyond thumping and heat vision, again of no use against SD.

Thor goes down first though, seeing as Surfer would most likely tackle him, leaving SD to keep Superman busy.
Originally posted by carver9
Thor is to slow huh. Lets see how his equal does.

http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/6279/stormbreaker0302js0.jpg
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what?
that was a CIS incarnate mele, which SD needn't have gotten into.

carver9

Can superman mimic a punch like this to take silver surfer out of the fight.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/Annihilation-HeraldsofGalactus2-035.jpg

janus77

Originally posted by Scoobless
If Superman were to fight Stardust ... what exactly would he do?
exactly.
same goes for Thor seeing as Stormbreaker had no effect on SD. SD just reforms. he's a form of sentient energy, incapable of physical damage.

janus77

Originally posted by carver9
Can superman mimic a punch like this to take silver surfer out of the fight.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/Annihilation-HeraldsofGalactus2-035.jpg
lol

1) hell no
2) it didn't take Surfer out
3) it came after a barrage of other assaults upon Surfer from Aegis' full-on energy blast to other attacks from Tenebreous
4) Surfer's too fast to be tagged /CIS

Scoobless

Originally posted by janus77
Surfer is hundereds of times faster than Thor

In a straight line? sure, shame this isn't a race. In a fight he just doesn't have a speed advantage against anyone here.

bbrem123

Originally posted by Scoobless
In a straight line? sure, shame this isn't a race. In a fight he just doesn't have a speed advantage against anyone here.

?? yes he does

carver9

Are you referring to flight speed because again brb=thor and brb flies across the cosmos easily so thor should be able to keep up with surfer if youre basing this off of flight speed.

Surfer his entire career has ever wiped the floor against thor, someone who is basically his equal.

Stardust has the ability to defeat superman, superman did almost get killed holding a black hole in his hand and stardust creates black hole like candy. If thor is able to defeat surfer then this fight come down to thor vs stardust.

janus77

Originally posted by Scoobless
In a straight line? sure, shame this isn't a race. In a fight he just doesn't have a speed advantage against anyone here.
again, Surfer has on-panel demonstrated that he can (if he so chooses) use speed in a battle.

he mocked Deathurge by speedblasting, he destroyed an armada with a speedblitz and he has played dodgeball with Mjolnir with ease.

it's ony CIS which makes Surfer present himself as a target for anyone below High Herald.

carver9

Originally posted by janus77
lol

1) hell no
2) it didn't take Surfer out
3) it came after a barrage of other assaults upon Surfer from Aegis' full-on energy blast to other attacks from Tenebreous
4) Surfer's too fast to be tagged /CIS

I know superman can mimic that punch, I was trying to understand why someone said thor/superman win because I cant think of a way yet besides thor versatility for the herald team to lose. I dont know why I made this fight.

llagrok

Stardust doesn't have any speedfeats that put him on par with Superman, so Superman speedblitz him for a while. Doesn't matter that he can reform, he clearly feels pain and is stunned whenever punched.

Thor shields the two of them, and/or absorbs any attack into his hammer. After Stardust is stunned, Superman will work on Surfer and Thor will absorb Stardust's life force. Surfer can't turn Superman into kryptonite while trying to dodge Superman's attacks, and any attack will either be absorbed by Thor or dodged.

janus77

Originally posted by carver9
Are you referring to flight speed because again brb=thor and brb flies across the cosmos easily so thor should be able to keep up with surfer if youre basing this off of flight speed.

Surfer his entire career has ever wiped the floor against thor, someone who is basically his equal.

Stardust has the ability to defeat superman, superman did almost get killed holding a black hole in his hand and stardust creates black hole like candy. If thor is able to defeat surfer then this fight come down to thor vs stardust.
Surfer vs Thor without CIS.

it's the CIS part which makes all the difference, imo.

Surfer has dodged Mjolnir plenty of times, but then reverted to monologue/preaching... which is where his downfall usually comes.

Surfer's now sufficiently durable to hang with Teneberous/Aegis, taking mutltiple direct and murderous attacks without falling. his "energy signature" is now equal to Thanos (as of Annihilation), which probably has a bearing on this too, but even so... basically Surfer's not the weak earthbound rogue herald he was when he first tussled with Thor.

darthgoober

Originally posted by carver9
People say that superman and thor are considered high herald level beings. Lets see if they can live up to there reputation. Can they take on true high herald beings and get the majority.

CIS is gone in this battle to make it interesting.

This is classic thor.
I know CIS is barred, but did you what to get rid of the "in character" stipulation as well?

bbrem123

surfer is a beast now since he got his upgrade

Bouboumaster

No CIS?
Cosmic Awarness + Matter Manipulation + a powerful pimp slap = Superman dead in 1 second.

After that, gang bang on Thor. Team 1 10/10

janus77

Originally posted by darthgoober
I know CIS is barred, but did you what to get rid of the "in character" stipulation as well?
it's difficult to keep Surfer's "character", if you eliminate CIS.
'cos a lot of his stupidity is just an extension of his innate pacifism.

without monologues, regrets, ambivalence and doubts about his moral position in any given conflict, he'd just beat the opponent first and ask questions later.

and without the time he takes to do all that moral contemplation, he'd never be hit by anybody under High Herald (the best of the best of Galactus' creations and a select few other cosmics).

Hulk would never touch Surfer, if Surfer didn't feel compelled to try and reason with mindless Hulk or assist/sympathise for Savage Hulk.

Thor wouldn't even see/sense Surfer, if Surfer didn't treat Thor as a friend or as an honourable adversary... it's a very tricky balance expunging CIS.

carver9

Originally posted by llagrok
Stardust doesn't have any speedfeats that put him on par with Superman, so Superman speedblitz him for a while. Doesn't matter that he can reform, he clearly feels pain and is stunned whenever punched.

Thor shields the two of them, and/or absorbs any attack into his hammer. After Stardust is stunned, Superman will work on Surfer and Thor will absorb Stardust's life force. Surfer can't turn Superman into kryptonite while trying to dodge Superman's attacks, and any attack will either be absorbed by Thor or dodged.

How in the hell is superman stunning a guy (stardust) that took a planet destroying hit and was ok. Stardust is plenty enough durable to take an assault from superman but can superman take a black hole to the brain.

Same rule applies for thor, how is thor going to beat something that his equal couldnt beat. embarrasment

carver9

Originally posted by darthgoober
I know CIS is barred, but did you what to get rid of the "in character" stipulation as well?

I thought that with cis out the window in character is as well. So basically this is everyone fighting at there best. Whatever abilities they have they can use it in this battle, IF IT has been used enough to be something of a regular to the character (I usually say 3 times but other say different).

darthgoober

Originally posted by janus77
it's difficult to keep Surfer's "character", if you eliminate CIS.
'cos a lot of his stupidity is just an extension of his innate pacifism.

without monologues, regrets, ambivalence and doubts about his moral position in any given conflict, he'd just beat the opponent first and ask questions later.

and without the time he takes to do all that moral contemplation, he'd never be hit by anybody under High Herald (the best of the best of Galactus' creations and a select few other cosmics).

Hulk would never touch Surfer, if Surfer didn't feel compelled to try and reason with mindless Hulk or assist/sympathise for Savage Hulk.

Thor wouldn't even see/sense Surfer, if Surfer didn't treat Thor as a friend or as an honourable adversary... it's a very tricky balance expunging CIS.
You know what, I just realized it doesn't matter. Even if we stick with "in character" tactics Surfer could easily solo both of them with a temporal BFR since Thor lost his powers of time manipulation.

darthgoober

Originally posted by carver9
I thought that with cis out the window in character is as well. So basically this is everyone fighting at there best. Whatever abilities they have they can use it in this battle, IF IT has been used enough to be something of a regular to the character (I usually say 3 times but other say different).
Ok put it this way, are we to assume that Surfer will be willing to kill ruthlessly and in cold blood in a manner similar to Exile's Surfer?

RageOfTheGods

Superman can beat Stardust or atleast hold his own for awhile. Thor can also beat Surfer, anyone who says he cant hasnt Thor beaten Surfer b4, plus there was a time he beaten both Surfer and Adam Warlock in combat(I believe he was in warrior madness at the time though), all it takes is a godblast or something of that power seeing as how he hurt Surfers boss i dont see why Classic Thor cant best Surfer in combat. I also read janus77 that Surfer can stand up to Odin, where do you get that from, Odin brushed Surfer away like a bug then went on to beat thanos up.

bbrem123

Originally posted by RageOfTheGods
Superman can beat Stardust or atleast hold his own for awhile. Thor can also beat Surfer, anyone who says he cant hasnt Thor beaten Surfer b4, plus there was a time he beaten both Surfer and Adam Warlock in combat(I believe he was in warrior madness at the time though), all it takes is a godblast or something of that power seeing as how he hurt Surfers boss i dont see why Classic Thor cant best Surfer in combat. I also read janus77 that Surfer can stand up to Odin, where do you get that from, Odin brushed Surfer away like a bug then went on to beat thanos up.

did u see the surfers in his latest appearance...cuz u wouldnt be saying that if u did

Soljer

Surfer > Superman
Stardust >= Thor

Team 1.

MightyEInherjar

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
No CIS?
Cosmic Awarness + Matter Manipulation + a powerful pimp slap = Superman dead in 1 second.

After that, gang bang on Thor. Team 1 10/10 Originally posted by Soljer
Surfer > Superman
Stardust >= Thor

Team 1.

RageOfTheGods

Originally posted by bbrem123
did u see the surfers in his latest appearance...cuz u wouldnt be saying that if u did

I did, he got an upgrade from galactus, destroyed a planet to show how strong he is and such yes I know. Thor still should be able to best him in combat.

carver9

Originally posted by darthgoober
Ok put it this way, are we to assume that Surfer will be willing to kill ruthlessly and in cold blood in a manner similar to Exile's Surfer?

If cis is out then he basically dont care, he is willing to kill if it comes to that. I dont like the word bloodlust because thats when tactical fighting is thrown out the window so I decided to just get rid of cis. So basically all the characters are willing to kill but they still have there mind in doing thing in process without just fighting in a rage.

carver9

This fight really depends on surfer and thor since they are the most versatile on the battle field. If they use there powers the right way then either side could get a victory but if thor fights brutish then this would be a losing battle to team 1. He would have to fight like brb fought star dust basically using planet leveling power.

Ouallada

Originally posted by carver9
If cis is out then he basically dont care, he is willing to kill if it comes to that. I dont like the word bloodlust because thats when tactical fighting is thrown out the window so I decided to just get rid of cis. So basically all the characters are willing to kill but they still have there mind in doing thing in process without just fighting in a rage.

CIS rules aren't the same as the "in character" stipulations. A lack of CIS means that an optimal strategy may be used, but still must fall within character. SS will now be able to use an optimal strategy such as k-nite emision for Superman and perhaps a temporal BFR for Thor, but he will not be doing so instantly, as it isn't within his character. Get rid of both, and then and only then do you get that situation you were speaking of.

carver9

OneDumbG0

For some reason... I can see Thor using Mjolnir to absorb or deflect just about anything Surfer and Stardust can throw at him. But I am hesitant to say the same thing in reverse. Superman is the weak link (how many times can that be said?)... but he can be a factor. Stardust may be comprised of energy, but physical force can give him pause. After all, Beta Ray Bill was actually using only his fists (and teeth!) to beat on Stardust for the second round of their fight.
Originally posted by darthgoober
You know what, I just realized it doesn't matter. Even if we stick with "in character" tactics Surfer could easily solo both of them with a temporal BFR since Thor lost his powers of time manipulation. Not if he uses a temporal storm to BFR! shifty

What?

I didn't write the comic:

darthgoober

Originally posted by Ouallada
CIS rules aren't the same as the "in character" stipulations. A lack of CIS means that an optimal strategy may be used, but still must fall within character. SS will now be able to use an optimal strategy such as k-nite emision for Superman and perhaps a temporal BFR for Thor, but he will not be doing so instantly, as it isn't within his character. Get rid of both, and then and only then do you get that situation you were speaking of.
Upon review, I have to disagree because the "fighting in character" stipulation is actually a part of the full capacity rule...

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

The Flash example clearly demonstrates that frequency of occurrence has NO impact on "fighting in character". Thus if they're willing to do it once then they're willing to do it every time right out of the gate. If Supes has ever blitzed, he'll blitz right away if it gets him the win. If Surfer's ever used transmutation to win a fight, he'll do it right away if it's what necessarily to win.

CIS on the other hand...

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively . Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

...refers to mental limitations that the heroes place on themselves that reduce the effectiveness of those abilities. So if in the comics Supes isn't willing to use his maximum levels of speed and strength with reckless abandon against an opponent who'll likely die from that kind of assault, he's not going to do it when CIS is on. If in the comics Surfer intentionally limits offensive organic transmutation to monsters and the most evil of villains, then that's the way he'll behave in the presence of CIS as well.

At least that's my take on it(feel free to disagree)...

OneDumbG0

^ That's reasonable. And I've argued that very position several times. But I've actually flip-flopped before on this issue of CIS. And the only problem I have with the above is that there will always be two situations where your version of CIS would ALWAYS limit a character's ability to fight at full capacity: 1) if collateral damage would endanger life; or 2) if the character perenially holds back.

For instance: 1) Superman fighting near a city would never fly at light speeds since he understands that it would cause catastrophic collateral damage to the city and it's inhabitants; and 2) Superman almost never goes all-out on an opponent at the very outset. He almost always takes their measure first and begins peeling away his limitations just enough to make sure he doesn't kill his opponent. And going with this option #1 of CIS interpretation, CIS can limit characters like Superman severely.

Personally, I think the idea of CIS was originally intended to be more limited to actual stupidity and wasn't meant to be extended to ideas of self-imposed limits. Instead of putting emphasis on what you underline, try reading the rule with this alternative emphasis:

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively . Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

If you interpret CIS with this emphasis on stupidity... then CIS would never limit a character's ability to fight at full capacity. Superman holding back is a choice, not a natural result of his stupidity and by default, would not be a factor in any hypothetical fight. The rule of full capacity and rule of CIS can be read in conjunction with each other without any conflict. So is this option #2 better than option #1?

Not always. Because if you accept this interpretation, then sometimes the result is... Superman would fight at light speed in Metropolis, and end up killing a lot of innocent people. You basically take the character out of Superman and argue simple power sets. Neither option #1 or option #2 sounds right in their entirety. Therefore, I think the rules need a bit of fine-tuning. And until then, I'd suggest that new thread starters ought to make clear what elements are free for discussion or not. My two cents.

darthgoober

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ That's reasonable. And I've argued that very position several times. But I've actually flip-flopped before on this issue of CIS. And the only problem I have with the above is that there will always be two situations where your version of CIS would ALWAYS limit a character's ability to fight at full capacity: 1) if collateral damage would endanger life; or 2) if the character perenially holds back.

For instance: 1) Superman fighting near a city would never fly at light speeds since he understands that it would cause catastrophic collateral damage to the city and it's inhabitants; and 2) Superman almost never goes all-out on an opponent at the very outset. He almost always takes their measure first and begins peeling away his limitations just enough to make sure he doesn't kill his opponent. And going with this option #1 of CIS interpretation, CIS can limit characters like Superman severely.

Personally, I think the idea of CIS was originally intended to be more limited to actual stupidity and wasn't meant to be extended to ideas of self-imposed limits. Instead of putting emphasis on what you underline, try reading the rule with this alternative emphasis:

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively . Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

If you interpret CIS with this emphasis on stupidity... then CIS would never limit a character's ability to fight at full capacity. Superman holding back is a choice, not a natural result of his stupidity and by default, would not be a factor in any hypothetical fight. The rule of full capacity and rule of CIS can be read in conjunction with each other without any conflict. So is this option #2 better than option #1?

Not always. Because if you accept this interpretation, then sometimes the result is... Superman would fight at light speed in Metropolis, and end up killing a lot of innocent people. You basically take the character out of Superman and argue simple power sets. Neither option #1 or option #2 sounds right in their entirety. Therefore, I think the rules need a bit of fine-tuning. And until then, I'd suggest that new thread starters ought to make clear what elements are free for discussion or not. My two cents.
Yeah the biggest problem is that the rules themselves are open to a lot of subjective interpretation. Truth be told, since our primary rules were pretty much copied directly from CBR whatever standard is held there should also apply here since it's obviously the way the rules were meant to be interpreted. But the thing I've always liked about KMC is that it's members seem to try to find a balance between comics and realism as compared to the extremes found at Herochat and CBR. We don't buy Thing tagging lightspeed characters just because they "forget" their speed in comics, but we look to what the characters actually DO rather to establish their limits rather than leap to assumptions because they kinda make sense(like attributing Thor with blitzing capabilities). So that's kinda the mindset I try to use in my interpretation of the rules.

But don't fret because the Mods are currently in the process of clarifying the rules a bit, it's just taking them a while to get everything sorted out(they're currently accepting suggestions via PM if you want to throw your two cents their way).

The Great Galen

Well doesn't Supes start out at a higher base level then anyone in the fight, if im not mistaken doesnt he have KO potential to knock Sufer out of star. Considering that Norin needs time to fuse himself with the power cosmic i dont see why Supes couldnt simply rush him before he even has the chance to.

darthgoober

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Well doesn't Supes start out at a higher base level then anyone in the fight, if im not mistaken doesnt he have KO potential to knock Sufer out of star. Considering that Norin needs time to fuse himself with the power cosmic i dont see why Supes couldnt simply rush him before he even has the chance to.
Huh?

The Great Galen

Sorry I mean sufer needs time to amp himself to access great levels of strenght and speed correct, his base isnt as high as Supes base.

Bouboumaster

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Sorry I mean sufer needs time to amp himself to access great levels of strenght and speed correct, his base isnt as high as Supes base.

Since when?
Surfer isn't ****in' Goku, lol.

Anyway, Sups would come in front of Surfer OR Stardust with the power of a baby kitten after all his weaknesses would have been exploited in matter of second.

DigiMark007

I'm constantly amazed at the respect Surfer gets. Most deserved, granted, but I always feel like he's a touch overrated.

I'd like to say the latter duo, but I don't dare try to defend myself. Especially with goober trolling around ( stick out tongue

)....maybe if pr or someone came by to help me with Kal's end of things, since I've had the "Thor v. various heralds" discussion multiple times.

The Great Galen

I jsut dont see how people can assum SS is physically as strong or durable as supes when he hasnt had any feats to really put him that high....hell he isnt even physically stronger then hulk.

CaptainStoic

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I jsut dont see how people can assum SS is physically as strong or durable as supes when he hasnt had any feats to really put him that high....hell he isnt even physically stronger then hulk.

Using the Hulk as a basis to determine strength is a bad idea, he doesn't have a limit cap, so in essence not too many characters can boast that they can lift more than he has at his strongest.

Juk3n

Superb fight.

Gut says Surfers Matter Manip and tp will eventually be able to neutralize Supes though, and swing it.

SS/SD Majority

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I jsut dont see how people can assum SS is physically as strong or durable as supes when he hasnt had any feats to really put him that high....hell he isnt even physically stronger then hulk. I don't think anybody assumes Surfer is as physically strong as Superman. At neither concomitant base or concomitant amped levels. Theoretically, he could amp himself past Superman. As far as I know, he has little to no on-panel strength feats putting him above Superman.

Durability wise? Surfer's durability is near the absolute peak of comic physical durability. I've never seen his skin cut, scratched, dented or shattered by anthing less than cosmic forces. I've never seen him knocked out by purely physical means. I'm sure there are some, but compared to the many dozens of foes who have bruised or drawn blood from Superman? With purely physical strength? And I am not counting the times he is weakened by Kryptonite, either. With regards to energy durability, I think Surfer is also well above Superman.

Think about it this way. Surfer has fought heralds in full fledged black holes without any amping. To my recollection, Superman has done nothing to approach that.

Juk3n

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't think anybody assumes Surfer is as physically strong as Superman. At neither concomitant base or concomitant amped levels. Theoretically, he could amp himself past Superman. As far as I know, he has little to no on-panel strength feats putting him above Superman.

Durability wise? Surfer's durability is near the absolute peak of comic physical durability. I've never seen his skin cut, scratched, dented or shattered by anthing less than cosmic forces. I've never seen him knocked out by purely physical means. I'm sure there are some, but compared to the many dozens of foes who have bruised or drawn blood from Superman? With purely physical strength? And I am not counting the times he is weakened by Kryptonite, either. With regards to energy durability, I think Surfer is also well above Superman.

Think about it this way. Surfer has fought heralds in full fledged black holes without any amping. To my recollection, Superman has done nothing to approach that.

you make pretty posts thumb up

Ouallada

Originally posted by darthgoober
Upon review, I have to disagree because the "fighting in character" stipulation is actually a part of the full capacity rule...

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

The Flash example clearly demonstrates that frequency of occurrence has NO impact on "fighting in character". Thus if they're willing to do it once then they're willing to do it every time right out of the gate. If Supes has ever blitzed, he'll blitz right away if it gets him the win. If Surfer's ever used transmutation to win a fight, he'll do it right away if it's what necessarily to win.

I'm not going to disagree entirely, BUT (there is always a but, isn't there?) using Flash as an example to prove or disprove the full capacity rule is not exactly a representative sample. Firstly, superspeed is one of the most difficult powers to write consistently and believably when you have a rogue gallery like Flash's, none of whom should be able to last more than a couple of panels with him. Allowing a certain degree of leeway for that is plausible, and probably necessary. Secondly, as many have mentioned before, yourself included, Flash is a straight up hero, and that means that he intrinsically can be assumed to not go for the kill immediately.

Additionally, speedblitzing is a viable tactic, and the connotation that I get is that it is as much a possible tactic as transmutation is, not that it is a constantly replicated occurence from the get-go of every fight.

Simply put, I don't believe that this particular set of rules is adequate, because fighting in character and speedblitzing for the instant kill is oxymoronic. The only difference is that the Flash example supports the latter solely, while forgetting about the limitations imposed by the former. The only real compromise is to assume full access to powersets within character. IE Superman blitzing from the start once doesn't mean it fulfils the "in character" criteria completely, but rather means that it is within his powerset to do so -- one rule absolutely should not overwrite the other.

Originally posted by darthgoober

CIS on the other hand...

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively . Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

...refers to mental limitations that the heroes place on themselves that reduce the effectiveness of those abilities. So if in the comics Supes isn't willing to use his maximum levels of speed and strength with reckless abandon against an opponent who'll likely die from that kind of assault, he's not going to do it when CIS is on. If in the comics Surfer intentionally limits offensive organic transmutation to monsters and the most evil of villains, then that's the way he'll behave in the presence of CIS as well.

At least that's my take on it(feel free to disagree)...

Now, this may be simply an argument about semantics, as the only salient difference I see is that I have split stupidity into CIS and the "in character" stipulation, but I'm going to make a few points just in case.

"Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks."

It is this portion that caused me to make my conclusions about CIS. Apparently, that is not congruent with surfer choosing not to transmute offensively or choosing not to bullrush immediately, because CIS is described as something that occurs independently of plot, which is the only reason SS does not attempt to encase his enemies in adamantium while keeping them alive immediately. The portion that you underlined also leads me to believe that CIS is an inherent flaw, and not one of choice, as OneDumbGo mentioned.

Thus, it is entirely believable that character limitations and CIS aren't inherently the same thing. In any case, the full capacity rule should never be imposed over the character rule unless bloodlust is in effect, and the best possible compromise has already been stated by me above.

I do agree that it is necessary for a discussion on the rules, even though the mods may not condone it. Communicating solely via PM doesn't allow ideas and opinions to be shared in the open -- the discussion could be contained in a single thread, but should be allowed as long as civility is maintained.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Ouallada
Additionally, speedblitzing is a viable tactic, and the connotation that I get is that it is as much a possible tactic as transmutation is, not that it is a constantly replicated occurence from the get-go of every fight.

Simply put, I don't believe that this particular set of rules is adequate, because fighting in character and speedblitzing for the instant kill is oxymoronic. The only difference is that the Flash example supports the latter solely, while forgetting about the limitations imposed by the former. The only real compromise is to assume full access to powersets within character. IE Superman blitzing from the start once doesn't mean it fulfils the "in character" criteria completely, but rather means that it is within his powerset to do so -- one rule absolutely should not overwrite the other.With regards to this... I think Flash is the only character where speedblitz is viable. There are plenty of examples of him ending a fight before anyone's even noticed. Whether it's disarming them or putting them in jail instantly. There are dozens of times where, once he engages an opponent, BOOM! Fight's over. By virtue of the Speedforce, he can contain any collateral damage.

I can't count past the fingers on my hand whether Superman has ended a fight at the outset with his superspeed once he's engaged his opponent. Criminals, human soldiers and cannon fodder? Yes. Foes like Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Mongul, Equus, etc.? No. Most times when he does actually resort to speedblitz, the fight's not even over. He places limits on himself to prevent collateral damage AND he places precise limits on power output for fear of killing someone. Speedblitz doesn't really work for Superman.

And don't get me started on the utterly ridiculous fallacy of the "uber pwnzorz speedblitz," whereby people assume that Superman can fly at FTL speeds and hit the opponent with 1,000,000X planet-busting punches in .0000000001 seconds. That's like arguing that Silver Surfer could evade at FTL speeds and open up 1,000,000X black holes around an opponent in .0000000001 seconds. Only difference is that Surfer actually appears capable of creating black holes casually whereas Superman does not unleash his strongest punches with the same commensurate casualness.

If you haven't guessed, I can't stand when people cite "uber pwnzorz speedblitz" in battles. mad

Juk3n

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman does not unleash his strongest punches with the same commensurate casualness.

If you haven't guessed, I can't stand when people cite "uber pwnzorz speedblitz" in battles. mad

this post is quite correct, but i think the OP was trying to get a battle going where none of the combatants had any collateral damage to worry about. I assume the OP wants a full on all out war, where NO ONE, not even our kind hearted Surfers and Supermen care about shattering all the windows in a city, killing all the innocents.

So for all intents and purposes, why wouldnt Superman Fight at the Fastest Speed he possibly could. He has no character restraints here - in this battle.

Commensurate casualness - by the stipulations set - is out the window, (thats how i took the stipulations) Everyone is going for the kill with full use of there abilities..so if you're telling me that Supes CAN'T blitz, then oki..thats a different argument, but it seems to me some people are still arguing that he WONT blitz here..and i cant see a reason why he wouldnt at least try.

-2 cents-

carver9

Originally posted by Juk3n
this post is quite correct, but i think the OP was trying to get a battle going where none of the combatants had any collateral damage to worry about. I assume the OP wants a full on all out war, where NO ONE, not even our kind hearted Surfers and Supermen care about shattering all the windows in a city, killing all the innocents.

So for all intents and purposes, why wouldnt Superman Fight at the Fastest Speed he possibly could. He has no character restraints here - in this battle.

Commensurate casualness - by the stipulations set - is out the window, (thats how i took the stipulations) Everyone is going for the kill with full use of there abilities..so if you're telling me that Supes CAN'T blitz, then oki..thats a different argument, but it seems to me some people are still arguing that he WONT blitz here..and i cant see a reason why he wouldnt at least try.

-2 cents-

I guess you didnt understand his post.

UniOmni

You have a two heralds who can make black holes with ease, one who is the most durable hero character in his universe, the other who can shrug off all but the most extreme physical attacks and has incredible stamina alongside impressive energy capabilities along with his partner, vs one top notch brick with potent but limited energy capabilities, as well as a glaring potential weakness and his ally, the guy with a hammer that can do impressive things, should the wielder be smart enough to use it.

Classic Thor would use the blunt trauma end of the hammer mostly, and suffer for it here.

Team two can win, but it's an uphill battle imo.

carver9

Originally posted by UniOmni
You have a two heralds who can make black holes with ease, one who is the most durable hero character in his universe, the other who can shrug off all but the most extreme physical attacks and has incredible stamina alongside impressive energy capabilities along with his partner, vs one top notch brick with potent but limited energy capabilities, as well as a glaring potential weakness and his ally, the guy with a hammer that can do impressive things, should the wielder be smart enough to use it.

Classic Thor would use the blunt trauma end of the hammer mostly, and suffer for it here.

Team two can win, but it's an uphill battle imo.

Thats why I said that this battle depends on thor and the way he fight since he is one of the most versatile on the battle field (below surfer). Thor can fight either of the two since he dont have ANY weakness but if thor was to fight star dust and superman was to fight surfer that when the fight would be over with immediately. Thor has shown that he can hang with surfer and overrall thor is just as versatile and powerful as the surfer. I give stardust the win over supes but supes would last long enough giving time for thor to take out ss and then it would just be a repeat of brb vs stardust destroying 100s of planets during the process.

Ouallada

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
With regards to this... I think Flash is the only character where speedblitz is viable. There are plenty of examples of him ending a fight before anyone's even noticed. Whether it's disarming them or putting them in jail instantly. There are dozens of times where, once he engages an opponent, BOOM! Fight's over. By virtue of the Speedforce, he can contain any collateral damage.

I can't count past the fingers on my hand whether Superman has ended a fight at the outset with his superspeed once he's engaged his opponent. Criminals, human soldiers and cannon fodder? Yes. Foes like Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Mongul, Equus, etc.? No. Most times when he does actually resort to speedblitz, the fight's not even over. He places limits on himself to prevent collateral damage AND he places precise limits on power output for fear of killing someone. Speedblitz doesn't really work for Superman.

And don't get me started on the utterly ridiculous fallacy of the "uber pwnzorz speedblitz," whereby people assume that Superman can fly at FTL speeds and hit the opponent with 1,000,000X planet-busting punches in .0000000001 seconds. That's like arguing that Silver Surfer could evade at FTL speeds and open up 1,000,000X black holes around an opponent in .0000000001 seconds. Only difference is that Surfer actually appears capable of creating black holes casually whereas Superman does not unleash his strongest punches with the same commensurate casualness.

If you haven't guessed, I can't stand when people cite "uber pwnzorz speedblitz" in battles. mad

Precisely, speedblitzing is a viable tactic for Flash, not one that we logically argue 10000/10. The same applies to Superman, WW etc to a lesser degree. My basic argument in the portion you highlighted was simply that it is incongruous with character for Flash, or any hero for that matter, to instantly speedblitz. Hell, I don't think that surfer would instantly use transmutation offensively, but I see his using of incapacitative transmutation as much more likely and in character than the much lauded speedblitz.

Board Walker

Surfer is weak link in team 1, team 2 takes this.

Prof. T.C McAbe

Stardust ist such a beautiful name.

h1a8

Stardust never really showed great combat speed faster than Thor. I say Thor can best him with absorbing abilities, lightning, etc. Anyway I see Superman giving Surfer a punch to the jaw and stunning him greatly and following up with a few more hits to ko him.

abhilegend

Superman beats the shit out of surfer. Thor beats the shit out of Stardust.

Close the thread.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Since when?
Surfer isn't ****in' Goku, lol.

Anyway, Sups would come in front of Surfer OR Stardust with the power of a baby kitten after all his weaknesses would have been exploited in matter of second.
Before or after Superman beats the shit out of Surfer or Stardust?

Genii96

Surfer or stardust shits on superman..one is a walking red sun/kryptonite machine,the other is immune to physical blows and is almost unkillable and creates black holes as a basic routine.....
Team 1 wins,now close this thread

abhilegend

Originally posted by Genii96
Surfer or stardust shits on superman..one is a walking red sun/kryptonite machine,the other is immune to physical blows and is almost unkillable and creates black holes as a basic routine.....
Team 1 wins,now close this thread
Walking machine? Post one scan of surfer creating kryptonite or red sun rays.

Bill knocked Stardust out in God Hunter. Superman laughs at black holes.

Team 1 wins a few because Thor is a chump.

Genii96

Originally posted by abhilegend
Walking machine? Post one scan of surfer creating kryptonite or red sun rays.

Bill knocked Stardust out in God Hunter. Superman laughs at black holes.

Team 1 wins a few because Thor is a chump.

Why would surfer have to do that when there is no one in the MU with that weakness hat he fought exactly? Lolz, the moment he faces supes he knows what to do,supes becomes as useless to him as kallark.....
Stormbreaker is MAGICAL in nature,unless supes has any magical or cosmic power I don't know of,he is useless here
Laughs off black holes? When?
Thoe a chump?.he gas mjonir which would affect stardust,and he dosent have any glaring weakness for surfer to use....he is the only reason team 2 even get a win

abhilegend

Originally posted by Genii96
Why would surfer have to do that when there is no one in the MU with that weakness hat he fought exactly?
So he has never done it but can do it here all of a sudden? OK. Superman changes frequency of his body so that kryptonite or red sun can't touch him and beats surfer to death.

He has actually done that.

And when has he ever done that? All of his fights should be over in one panel then. Scans of this happening?

Stormbreaker doesn't hits magical hits. Superman hits harder than Stormbreaker.

Final Crisis. Even tugged off the entire multiverse with other supermen and GLs inside that black hole.

Nah, Thor is a chump. So your entire argument is Surfer using weakness exploitation when he never does or has done?

Yeah, typical surfer fanboy. When you have some actual argument with some actual scans, come talk to me.

Genii96

Lolz right...when your butthurt for surfer shitting on supes with his weakness cools down,then come talk..
Using the quickest way to beat an opponent if such a way exists is one of surfer's most used tactic
From attacking a creature in the astral world since physical attacks weren't helping to draining hulk of his gamma rays to ripping the old power from skaar to his confrontaation with kallark,showing that he could easily radiate his weakness,to absorbing the power of his clone which was equal to him in strength to morphing his body to handle an enemy who could turn to poison etc....
For superman it just means either radiating red sun radiation or kryptonite,or ripping the solar energy from his body and so on and so forth
Ofcourse the 'so surfer can only win by weakness exploitation' cry is just a lousy tantrum,he dosent need it,but its much quicker

As for stardust,either ur purposely trying to downplay him as usual or u actually don't know anything about him. Or the fact that stormbreaker is a magical weapon throughout,when surfer tried to recreate it,he had to syntheize magical energy and then recreated it
However,just to put things as clear as a child could understand
Physical attacks are nothing
http://i.imgur.com/GCq2sEZ.jpg
Galactus' physical hit does squat
http://i.imgur.com/k9mEgrz.jpg
BRB not using his hammer,punches,kicks,and even bites off his arm..stardust isn't fighting back,but is trying to calm him down,all of those don't even interrupt stardust's speech
http://i.imgur.com/cCLtjxp.jpg
Being blows to bits,he reforms immediately after,
http://i.imgur.com/yMyuisO.jpg
Takes a planet explosion,being stabbed by his halberd,and multiple hits from storm breaker
http://i.imgur.com/SscAaik.jpg
Is just fine afterwards
http://i.imgur.com/sjzg4hf.jpg

But somehow to you,punches from superman are going to affect him? Physical attacks do squat,get that through your skull

When you actually have something worth replying to,them post it. Superman is worthless here

abhilegend

Originally posted by Genii96
Lolz right...when your butthurt for surfer shitting on supes with his weakness cools down,then come talk..

Eh, what? Your imaginary surfer doesn't exist. Why would anybody be envious of it?

That's why he has never used it? Right.

Nothing there even showed he was able to create kryptonite/red sun rays. He might be able to drain some energy from Superman before Superman knocks him the **** out.

Perhaps.

WTF are you talking about now? How does it being magical means it hits magical too? Captain Marvel's entire body is magical, he doesn't somehow hits magical punches too.

That's why Bill koed him in three hits in Godhunter. Those are from Stormbreaker mini. Read the comic before you know what you're talking about.

Shut up kid before you randomly babble something you don't know about.

Maybe in your imagination where Surfer is this badass character.

You want feats from Superman and compare them with Surfer?

Genii96

Maybe in your fantasy when surfer can't radiate superman's weakness,or drain his solar energy despite actually doing it to beings who can control that energy,then you can talk. He Is just as useless as gladiator would be.

When superman's fist are made of magic,then you can bring up ur BS,he is worthless here

abhilegend

Fantasy? It's the reality son.

Stop talking nonsense. "Fist made of magic".

laughing out loud

Genii96

Am not the one claiming physical punches will hurt stardust when a plethora of feats dictate otherwise,'fists made of magic' which any retard could decypher simply means that unless superman's fists have magical qualities,he is worthless to stardust..but hey I guess its too complex for you.

abhilegend

Physical hits have owned Stardust. Heck Thor could just disperse him just like Storm did with a bolt of lightning. Superman can do the same with HV.

And cease the hostility kid. Don't try to get in a mud sling contest here.

Juntai

Either person on team two will wreck shop on team one.

Genii96

Originally posted by abhilegend
Physical hits have owned Stardust. Heck Thor could just disperse him just like Storm did with a bolt of lightning. Superman can do the same with HV.

And cease the hostility kid. Don't try to get in a mud sling contest here.
Good thing no pysical attack has even affeted him,including one from galactus himself.
As for storm actually affecting him with that lightening bolt,that was the same issue where surfer let panther put him in an arm lock,and fterwards he withstood blasts from a comic johnny and 2 singularities,but nevertheless,stardust took multiple energy blasts from brb and was just fine,and against storm he reformed instantly,not to mention he has energy blasts of his own
Heat vision dispersing him? Wtf is heat going to do to an etheral,and a person who lived in stars before he even became a herald? Not even mention his own eye blasts,and btw he has many eyes.
So no,superman can't do squat to stardust with fists or heat,unless he goes and gets a magic amp.
Obviously you won't let up,so no point continuing

abhilegend

Originally posted by Genii96
Good thing no pysical attack has even affeted him,including one from galactus himself.

What are you talking about? The shockwave at least stunned him.

He never recovered instantly. And what of all those scenes are supposed to mean? That the scene is totally canon?

Superman has owned people who live in stars by heat vision and affected etheral beings too.

Its like a stuck clock, "Superman can't do anything to any herald"!! Why? Because you say so? Get the **** out of here with this shit.

Yeah, you are just parroting arguments from comicvine now.

Heads up kiddo, this ain't comicvine.

Tar-Antado

Originally posted by Board Walker
Surfer is weak link in team 1, team 2 takes this.

lol

Genii96

Originally posted by abhilegend
What are you talking about? The shockwave at least stunned him.

He never recovered instantly. And what of all those scenes are supposed to mean? That the scene is totally canon?

Superman has owned people who live in stars by heat vision and affected etheral beings too.

Its like a stuck clock, "Superman can't do anything to any herald"!! Why? Because you say so? Get the **** out of here with this shit.

Yeah, you are just parroting arguments from comicvine now.

Heads up kiddo, this ain't comicvine.

1) What? What shockwave? From galactus' slap? Where are you getting this?

2)Um,storm blasts him,turns to surfer who merely tells her to focus on stardust,she turns around,and stardust is right there,what was that? 3 panels? And how many seconds are those? The scans were simply to show that although he has consistently shown to take worse than a lightening bolt and not reform,in the case he does get affected even as useless as physical attacks will do,he can just reform very quickly,assuming he dosent just you know,simply his own energy attacks to counter the opponent's own? But hey fanfics are cool too.

3) I know it hurts,superman is worthless to stardust because the damn comic shows physical attacks like damn punches and heat vision to be freaking useless as well as physical attacks which I have shown through all those scans which don't seem to go through ur skull,that's why he is useless and stupid blubbering from a fanboy won't change anything...against surfer who can just radiate his 2 weaknesses or turn his blood to rubber or just rip off his energy as he has done to others who actually can control their inner energies and not just naturally absorb them into their cells, he is worthless as well. Its quite simple really. One he can not hope to hit,the other he can not harm no matter what he does.

3)Ofcourse this isn't comic vine,you would be a genius there

abhilegend

Originally posted by Genii96
1) What? What shockwave? From galactus' slap? Where are you getting this?

From the comic? Which you didn't read apparently.

Can you read or what? Have you even read the comic?

Can you at least type coherently? What is this nonsense?

Again nonsense. And like I said at least type coherently if you can.

This like talking to a broken clock.

I went there once. Wasn't impressed.

Oh and this is last time I inform you. Stop acting like you're PMSing and stop being hostile or get reported.

panthergod

Why are people lying as if Superman wouldn't wreck surfer or Stardust, both of whom get wrecked by Thor, Superman's inferior?

Genii96

Originally posted by abhilegend
From the comic? Which you didn't read apparently.

Can you read or what? Have you even read the comic?

Can you at least type coherently? What is this nonsense?

Again nonsense. And like I said at least type coherently if you can.

This like talking to a broken clock.

I went there once. Wasn't impressed.

Oh and this is last time I inform you. Stop acting like you're PMSing and stop being hostile or get reported.

1) Yea,now you are clearly delusional..mgalactus clapped stardust within his hands,when he released them,stardust was standing unscathed,brb was flat on his back,so,yea,shockwaves my a**...but nice try igoring the entire posted scans of him shrugging off physical hits though,classical

2) Pretty sure stardust reforming from the bolt is right here in this thread,not to mentionhe has taken worse without even being dispersed

3) Uh-huh,now from superman punches stardust to 'can't you type well?'...interesting

4)Ah yes,the old report routine, i am not the one who started the comic vine crap,so if you don't like it,don't bring it up.