Tir McDohl (Suikoden) VS Link (The Legend of Zelda)

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Remi8193
Who Would Win?

Blight
Tir Wins, hands down. Link has No defense against the Soul Eater.

CosmicComet
The Master Sword has something to say against that, surely.

ScreamPaste
I hate you so much.

I've never heard of this character. So I got curious, tried to sate my curiousity via google and learned almost nothing.

What is the soul eater?

CosmicComet
it's a rune he has.

does exactly what you think.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by CosmicComet
it's a rune he has.

does exactly what you think.

Giggity.

ScreamPaste
All right then. I still hate the OP very much. mmm

BloodRain
No clue who Tir is, but I remember his verse being full of hypersonic characters with mountain busting spells with human strength and dura.


Guess it'd have to be this Tir guy if he's one of the above unless Link could bring the cqc pain.

Blight
Originally posted by CosmicComet
The Master Sword has something to say against that, surely. Yeah I believe it says something like "OH GOD PLEASE DON'T SUCK ME INNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnnn"

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I hate you so much.

I've never heard of this character. So I got curious, tried to sate my curiousity via google and learned almost nothing.

What is the soul eater? The Soul Eater is a rune that practically breaks the game. It's power does exactly what its description implies.

Deadly Fingertips: Sudden death to 1 enemy (except bosses)
Black Shadow: 300 damage to all enemies
Hell: Sudden death to all enemies (except bosses)
Judgement: 1500 damage to 1 enemy

This isn't limited to people and animals, either. It works on Drones, Machines, etc. Nothing can stand up to it save Bosses, and that's really only a statute limit so the game isn't too easy. Tir Wins.... in a stomp.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Blight
Yeah I believe it says something like "OH GOD PLEASE DON'T SUCK ME INNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnnn"

The Soul Eater is a rune that practically breaks the game. It's power does exactly what its description implies.

Deadly Fingertips: Sudden death to 1 enemy (except bosses)
Black Shadow: 300 damage to all enemies
Hell: Sudden death to all enemies (except bosses)
Judgement: 1500 damage to 1 enemy

This isn't limited to people and animals, either. It works on Drones, Machines, etc. Nothing can stand up to it save Bosses, and that's really only a statute limit so the game isn't too easy. Tir Wins.... in a stomp. Okay, so does it have any feats that prevent the master sword from telling it to stfu?

Because that doesn't sound like much. no expression Also, depending what Link this is he has an AoE "You are now a ball of goo" spell that works on everything except bosses, or a cape that makes him intangible and invisible that does work on bosses, ect ect. If you want to go by how they function in game.

In truth, there are limits on all of those things and on Soul Eater, so, what's the best actual showing of power it has?

CosmicComet
No, it pretty much has no feats that I remember that would outdo Link's divine protection from the Master Sword.

Link wins this fairly handily, as Tir has little else going for him.

BloodRain
"hypersonic characters with mountain busting spells"

That Judgement^ being one of the strongest attacks in the verse.

CosmicComet
The only one who can possibly be called hypersonic, is Stallion, and mayyyybe the protaganist in the second game.

And Tir is definitely not a mountain buster either. That was between a fight between two ancient rune users or whatever.

BloodRain
Wouldn't powerscaling put people of the same rank at the same speed?

Casual mountain busters. Other characters on his level have town level soulfuks and cutting islands in half. Seems all rune users are up there, he should be on par.

Blight
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Okay, so does it have any feats that prevent the master sword from telling it to stfu?

Because that doesn't sound like much. no expression Also, depending what Link this is he has an AoE "You are now a ball of goo" spell that works on everything except bosses, or a cape that makes him intangible and invisible that does work on bosses, ect ect. If you want to go by how they function in game.

In truth, there are limits on all of those things and on Soul Eater, so, what's the best actual showing of power it has? Aside from Sucking in every single enemy without a problem whatsoever? No. I don't know what Link this is so I can understand your point. That's the biggest problem with Link, though, since he's really only as good as the items he carries. I suppose if he's loaded for bear then it depends what game it's from. So lets go down the list.

Legend of Zelda (Like the OP states)

This would be a horrible stomp in favor of Tir. None of the items I see in Link's arsenal would overcome the power of the Soul Eater.

Zelda 2

Same as Legend of Zelda IMO.

Link's Awakening

I still don't see anything in the arsenal that would counteract the effects of the Soul Eater, nor do I see anything that would beat its range, or that would defeat Tir prior to him summoning Judgement or Hell.

A Link to the Past

The Magic Cape could be a problem here. Though I don't really know whether or not the Soul Eater needs to see Link in order for Soul Sucking to occur (since it's two different styles of playing). The Master Sword isn't even the most powerful sword in this game, so I don't know what all the fuss about is here or why it wouldn't be sucked in with the rest of Link's items (since the Soul Eater isn't evil, it simply is).

Ocarina of Time

He will not be able to play any songs on his Ocarina prior to a Soul Steal (since it's one of the first attacks I use in Suikoden). Din's Fire is a nice Area of Effect attack, but it doesn't have much Range, and we don't know the range of a Soul Sucking from the Soul Eater.

I suppose the Arrows could be a problem here. This is just going with my opinion here but I just don't believe they're enough to truly down Tir. I've been hit multiple times by arrows within game enough to know they don't have much they can do when I get to a certain level. I supposed it's up for debate, though.

I guess that just boils down to Tir takes this IMO

Majora's Mask

Honestly, I never beat this game so there may be something I'm missing, but I don't recall anything that could hold measurable weight in a fight against someone with any true rune, let alone the Soul Eater.

wind waker

Same thing as Ocarina, he can't use the Wind Waker fast enough. And none of the weapons would really do much erm

Twilight Princess

Okay, I haven't played this game so I am going to peruse the items. Please correct me if there is something I miss because this one I'm literally only looking at the items and nothing more.

Magic Armor seems pretty awesome, but I don't think it would respond well to the Soul Steal since it just BFR's and doesn't take away health.

Turning into a wolf would just make a wolf get sucked in, not much to say there.

Slingshot won't do shit.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I haven't seen anything to prove that the Master Sword is much more than a regular sword when in battle with someone who's not inherently evil. So I don't know what the relevance is of this "Divine Protection".


I'm going to go ahead and leave it there. Most of the other ones I haven't played and considering I believe Link would lose in all of those scenario's, then that makes it a victory for Tir. Maybe there are outliers (I'm willing to admit that), but considering most of the games I listed were the Main Games that people know of, I think I've covered most of my general bases. If you want to argue different Link's then I'm open to the suggestion.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
No, it pretty much has no feats that I remember that would outdo Link's divine protection from the Master Sword.

Link wins this fairly handily, as Tir has little else going for him.

What divine protection? Explain it please. I'm not saying it doesn't exist its just that I don't recall it saving my ass during any of the games I played.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by Blight

What divine protection? Explain it please. I'm not saying it doesn't exist its just that I don't recall it saving my ass during any of the games I played.

I've never seen you debate in Games VS before, but there's a term called gameplay mechanics you should familiarize yourself with. It's the reason why someone like Dante can die from normal scythe wielding demons in gameplay yet in cutscenes walk through their attacks without even feeling it. It's also why the Master Sword never 'saved your ass' during gameplay. The rest of your post is also rife with gameplay mechanics, mentioning how many arrows it takes to hurt Tir or what not--thats in gameplay, that's not in a cutscene. Nearly all people in RPGs can take more damage in gameplay than they can in actual canon.

Mentioning the HP damage rate of moves for one thing, is also a gameplay mechanic. It means nothing, because what exactly, does '300 hp worth of damage' even translate into towards other universes? The numbers mean completely nothing, it needs actual feats.

Anyway, the Master Sword in canon offers divine protection to Link against a lot of spells and what not. Ask ScreamPaste for more detail, but I will tell you that Ganon has a lot more power than Tir McDohl, A LOT, and he has failed against the Master Sword over and over.

But yeah, the Soul Eater really has no impressive feats. Mostly in gameplay do we see it killing normal enemies and stuff. It might have sucked in a couple of people in cutscenes, but I don't remember them being impressive events.

Blight
Originally posted by CosmicComet
I've never seen you debate in Games VS before, but there's a term called gameplay mechanics you should familiarize yourself with. It's the reason why someone like Dante can die from normal scythe wielding demons in gameplay yet in cutscenes walk through their attacks without even feeling it. It's also why the Master Sword never 'saved your ass' during gameplay. The rest of your post is also rife with gameplay mechanics, mentioning how many arrows it takes to hurt Tir or what not--thats in gameplay, that's not in a cutscene. Nearly all people in RPGs can take more damage in gameplay than they can in actual canon.

Yep, first time here at the Gameplay Vs. But that's odd because I guess I took a different meaning from



and





I only mentioned the HP damage rate when telling what the spells do. I didn't even say that he would use those spells, so I don't know what relevance you think you have me held under. I only mentioned Soul Stealing attacks. So essentially what you're saying is the Soul Eater can do nothing because everything it has done has been used by Gameplay Mechanics?



He has Failed against the Master Sword because the Master Sword is what is used to defeat him. It's an Anti-Evil sword from what I can understand and would thus make it nearly impossible for anything evil to defeat him. Another rule caught my eye which was:



Now it may not pertain here but it COULD be relevant. Frankly, I don't care because the Soul Eater isn't evil, it is a part of what makes up the entire Suikoden universe. It's like saying "Love" is evil, or "Struggle" or "Destiny". They are abstracts that can't be quantified, and the Master Sword holds no domain over the magic it represents.





Likewise I don't recall Link doing anything overly impressive, either. In some cases, Link wasn't even trained to battle, whereas Tir was raised by the greatest General in Barbossa's Army and was being groomed to become a soldier himself. Again, without the OP commenting and telling exactly which Link this is, we're left up to interpretations and a lot of different characters that aren't all even the same, IMO.

The Scenario
Hopefully I can clear some of this up.

Gameplay mechanics are things like damage, hit points, and so on that have no real basis in canon. Abilities used in gameplay (such as the Soul Eater) are fine to use, but without more canon to back them up they're more limited. It's harder to say what they can actually do; affecting every enemy doesn't necessarily translate to canon well. Unless robots have souls in Suikoden verse, I guess. The point being that we like "feats" here, and gameplay is typically considered less important with some exceptions.

Anyway, on to said feats. Link's divine protection is most clearly seen in Twilight Princess. Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fpBOA_rHag#t=3m50s

Zant covers Hyrule with Twilight, part of the Twilight Realm, and turns basically everybody into helpless spirits. Soul based effect, essentially. Now, Link has resistance to this thanks to his Triforce of Courage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXNfxBRx1Gk#t=2m50s

You can see the Triforce repel a Shadow Beast (less important) and instead of being turned into a spirit, Link becomes a wolf. So, not complete protection, but sort of screws with the normal effects of Twilight. For actual protection, Link needs the Master Sword:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06Of3KqYd5o#t=25s

The Master Sword can break curses and such, while also providing Link with protection. It removes a solid chunk of Twilight from Link and prevents him from becoming a helpless spirit when he enters Twilight. One thing that I find interesting is that Master Sword also affects Midna, who is not evil but is a Twili. I recall reading somewhere that Soul Eater is cursed?

Aside from this, it's implied that the Master Sword is resistant to magic in A Link to the Past.
http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/link-to-the-past/inst-us/z3manual-05-06.jpg

CosmicComet
Abilities and Gameplay Mechanics are not the same.

If a character gains an ability within the story yet it is not used in story, it is still assumed he has the ability. The ability itself simply cannot be thoroughly quantified without canon usage however.

The Soul Eater may not be intended to be Evil, but neither is the Triforce of Power--which Ganon has. Link's magical resistances isn't simply based on his own universe's qualification of Evil.

Anyway, back to gameplay mechanics. Remember Odessa Silverburg? Remember how she died from pretty much one wound from an imperial soldier in a story scene, protecting that child? If that same imperial soldier hit her during a gameplay battle, she obviously wouldn't have died, would she? No. She just would have taken the set damage rate according to whatever level she was at.
This is what story and gameplay segregation is. And thus an example like Tir only taking a set amount of HP damage from arrows in gameplay, is thus NOT a durability feat whatsoever--its not canon.

As for Link's combat abilities, Link has superhuman strength, reflex, durability feats, whereas Tir has none of that whatsoever. Likewise, Link is literally preternaturally skilled with whatever weapons he gets, and he fights more powerful enemies than Tir has solo. Ganon is far more powerful than the Sorceress Windy or King Barbarossa, and Link has faced him one on one for literally centuries.

The best thing Tir has ever done solo, is best Qwanda Rosman in a duel. Who has no feats whatsoever--other than being a guy strong enough to wear a fairly bulky suit of armor and carry a nice sized axe. Nothing that Link hasn't outdone easily before--see Twilight Princess.

Blight
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Abilities and Gameplay Mechanics are not the same.

If a character gains an ability within the story yet it is not used in story, it is still assumed he has the ability. The ability itself simply cannot be thoroughly quantified without canon usage however.

The Soul Eater may not be intended to be Evil, but neither is the Triforce of Power--which Ganon has. Link's magical resistances isn't simply based on his own universe's qualification of Evil.

Anyway, back to gameplay mechanics. Remember Odessa Silverburg? Remember how she died from pretty much one wound from an imperial soldier in a story scene, protecting that child? If that same imperial soldier hit her during a gameplay battle, she obviously wouldn't have died, would she? No. She just would have taken the set damage rate according to whatever level she was at.
This is what story and gameplay segregation is. And thus an example like Tir only taking a set amount of HP damage from arrows in gameplay, is thus NOT a durability feat whatsoever--its not canon.

As for Link's combat abilities, Link has superhuman strength, reflex, durability feats, whereas Tir has none of that whatsoever. Likewise, Link is literally preternaturally skilled with whatever weapons he gets, and he fights more powerful enemies than Tir has solo. Ganon is far more powerful than the Sorceress Windy or King Barbarossa, and Link has faced him one on one for literally centuries.

The best thing Tir has ever done solo, is best Qwanda Rosman in a duel. Who has no feats whatsoever--other than being a guy strong enough to wear a fairly bulky suit of armor and carry a nice sized axe. Nothing that Link hasn't outdone easily before--see Twilight Princess. So we are to assume every Link is canon to one another now? Link does not have Superhuman anything without his Items, but I suppose you are right here. I guess really the debate comes down to whether or not the Soul Eater would have an effect on him. You think it won't based on the fact that it has protected him in the past. I think it will based on the fact that it works one literally everything except Bosses (which apparently isn't relevant because, per rules, it's a gameplay mechanic and nothing more). Frankly, based on all the other 27 true runes, I'm inclined to believe that the Soul Eater is, in fact, all powerful due to the fact that it's considered within game to be equal to the Rune of Punishment (As described by the FogShip character), and the Rune of Punishment showed Town destroying feats. ABC Logic? Sure, but it's all I have to really go on. I guess per forum rules, the Soul Eater doesn't match up in some's eyes. My eyes are clearer, however.

Has it been explicitely stated that Link is automatically skilled in whatever weapon he gets?

Also I would debate whether Windy and Barbarossa are weaker than Ganon. I haven't seen much proof either way.

CosmicComet
Each Link is a reincarnation of one before, with Skyward Sword Link being the very first. The OP doesn't specify which Link is used here, so I'm simply being flexible.

No, several Links have superhuman strength feats even without things like the Golden Gauntlets. Twilight Princess Link for instance is strong enough to toss Dangoro around for instance--and Dangoro certainly weighs a few dozens tons at the very least. Skyward Sword Link as well had some strength feats as well--but I can't quite recall them exactly at the moment.

Town busting is not impressive at all compared to Ganon's destruction feats.

Blight
Ganon is weak against the Master Sword, unless you're implying Link is more powerful than Ganon....

Frankly, the OP says "Legend of Zelda", but I'm splitting hairs there because Legend of Zelda Link would be spite in favor of Tir, in my opinion.

ScreamPaste
Just going to respond to this.

Town destroying isn't really all powerful, nor is it all that significant next to the master sword which while depowered can freeze (at least) an entire country in time indefinitely.

Ganon, the main foe bested by said sword routinely accomplishes things on that scale, freezing Zora's domain twice, shattering an island (with the bulk of his power sealed away, he also managed to turn off the sun under these conditions) overlapping an entire country in twilight with a stated fraction of his power.

The sword also protects Link from things that aren't evil at all, like the Twilight realm, which while dark is not evil. Dark=/=Evil being a big theme in TP.

The sword at it's full power is a direct failsafe against the combined triforce and rivals it in power. In SS we see it is blessed by the three goddesses who created the world after having been created by a fourth.

It does not **** around, good sir.

BloodRain
Ganon has a curse that made a city-block body of water freeze and a large AoE Twilight drop.

Thats far from Town busting.

Blight
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Just going to respond to this.

Town destroying isn't really all powerful, nor is it all that significant next to the master sword which while depowered can freeze (at least) an entire country in time indefinitely.

Ganon, the main foe bested by said sword routinely accomplishes things on that scale, freezing Zora's domain twice, shattering an island (with the bulk of his power sealed away, he also managed to turn off the sun under these conditions) overlapping an entire country in twilight with a stated fraction of his power.

The sword also protects Link from things that aren't evil at all, like the Twilight realm, which while dark is not evil. Dark=/=Evil being a big theme in TP.

The sword at it's full power is a direct failsafe against the combined triforce and rivals it in power. In SS we see it is blessed by the three goddesses who created the world after having been created by a fourth.

It does not **** around, good sir. Link has never been able to show himself Freezing Time with the Master Sword to my knowledge so that would render your point irrelevant. Sure, it has inherent power, but that power doesn't translate to it's user being able to counteract stealing your soul (something that HAS been shown to be used by its user in game. )

Not to mention, I still haven't seen anything impressive enough to counteract something that literally BFR's you.



Again, Tir Mcdohl wins. Via BFR.

ScreamPaste
If my point were that "Link stops time for the win", it isn't.

My point is the sword is on a significantly higher scale than Soul Eater from what has been shown to me so far, and as such will just tell said BFR to stfu. no expression Unless there's something you haven't shown me yet?

CosmicComet
There's nothing to tell.

The Soul Eater is on a significantly lesser level than Ganon.

Not to mention, Tir is slower and weaker than Link as well.

No guarantee that's he going to have a chance to even attempt his spells before Link fires away at him.

Blight
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
If my point were that "Link stops time for the win", it isn't.

My point is the sword is on a significantly higher scale than Soul Eater from what has been shown to me so far, and as such will just tell said BFR to stfu. no expression Unless there's something you haven't shown me yet?

Based on what exactly? The Sword can be transported. We've seen it in Link to the Past. We don't know where the soul eater takes its enemies but we know it doesn't fail to do so on anything. All we have is your opinion that the Master Sword is greater than something that makes up part of a universe because you think it's a higher scale. This coming from someone who hasn't played 1 of the games they're arguing against.

Again, prove to me that the Sword would not be sucked up against something that sucks everything. Failing that, prove that Link wouldn't get sucked up leaving the sword behind. We know that a simple blob can take his sword away from him.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
There's nothing to tell.

The Soul Eater is on a significantly lesser level than Ganon.

Not to mention, Tir is slower and weaker than Link as well.

No guarantee that's he going to have a chance to even attempt his spells before Link fires away at him.
Based on what? I've never seen proof that either is faster.

ScreamPaste
Backed by feats I've mentioned. Like freezing time on at least a national scale in a weakened state, being a direct failsafe to the triforce, ect.

And I formed this opinion by weighing what I know against what you've told me. You've told me nothing that suggests Soul Eater could overcome the protection the sword gives Link.

Why would it suddenly stop protecting him and allow him to be taken away? That doesn't make sense.

And no, a blob has never taken the master sword from him, just his shield.

Essentially it's as follows.
-The sword protects Link.
-Feats so far provided for said sword are greater than feats provided for the rune.
-Therefore, I conclude the sword will overcome the rune, rather than vice versa.
-If you believe the rune can overcome the sword, state why.

Blight
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Backed by feats I've mentioned. Like freezing time on at least a national scale in a weakened state, being a direct failsafe to the triforce, ect.

And I formed this opinion by weighing what I know against what you've told me. You've told me nothing that suggests Soul Eater could overcome the protection the sword gives Link.

Why would it suddenly stop protecting him and allow him to be taken away? That doesn't make sense.

And no, a blob has never taken the master sword from him, just his shield.

Essentially it's as follows.
-The sword protects Link.
-Feats so far provided for said sword are greater than feats provided for the rune.
-Therefore, I conclude the sword will overcome the rune, rather than vice versa.
-If you believe the rune can overcome the sword, state why. What feats have you mentioned? That the sword froze things while not in possession by anyone? Or that it beats Ganon (which seems to be the point of the sword in the first place)?

I guess essentially what I'm getting at seems to be in direct conflict with your opinion.

For me it's:

-Sword Protects Link
-Soul Eater has never failed because it is the embodiment of Life & Death
-Feats in-game prove that Soul Eater has never failed (Save Bosses for the sake of not making the game too easy)
-Therefore, I conclude that the Sword does not overcome the rune, rather than Vice Versa.


I have yet to see a feat do something that directly contradicts transportation to another Dimension/Realm/Livelihood.

Blight
Does anyone have a video that shows Ganon shattering an island? That seems to be something akin to what the True Runes are capable of and I'd like to see it in action to gauge it.

BloodRain
KQ_FBQbMDtY
0:15

A small island he tore into searching for Janbun.

T-Wrecks
Ok, so there has been a lot of good information from both sides, but there seems to be several issue that I have in regards to the Master Sword's power: it has a very plot device-like quality to it, similar to pre-crisis Superman or Sailor Moon. Zelda has a very slap dash timeline and none of the games were written in true continuity to one another (by that I mean none of the games were written with a logical overarching timeline in mind), as described in AVGN's Chronically Confused about The Legend of Zelda. Another issue is that unlike Mario, there is no one Link; every one or two games has a new Link, so compared to Tir who has experience leading an army, fighting a revolutionary war and defeating an empire, Link (who is usually a random country bumpkin prior to the game's start) has little combat experience. Since the games don't say how much time passes during the course of the game, we can only assume that Link has like maybe 50 hours or so worth of true combat experience. Even ignoring the powers of the Soul Eater, Tir should be able to win with shear melee skill. This experience issue also plays into Link's use of the sword: people are assuming that Link somehow knows how to use all of the Master Swords plot device powers which change from game to game. For example, it was mentioned that the MS could freeze time. The only time I saw it do that was in Wind Waker, and Link wasn't the one who did it. He DID turn Ganon into stone at the end, but he never showed any ability to use time freezing powers during that (or any other Zelda that I've played).

Another thing that bothers me is that people keep bringing up the whole "Link beats Ganon who is way more powerful", but as Blight mentioned several times, that isn't much of feat when Ganon is specifically weak to the sword. That's like saying that Lex Luthor is more powerful than Superman because be can use Krytonite. There are simply too many variables in the extremely non-canon story telling in Zelda to say anything for an absolute certainty compared to Suikoden which has a much more structured continuity (excluding the portable games which are alternate reality).

Anyway, I think Tir could win with or without Soul Eater simply because he's a much more experience fighter and as someone who ISN'T Ganon, he isn't any more weak to the master sword than anyone else.

ScreamPaste
Nobody claimed Link would use the sword to stop time, that was an illustration of the sword's power.

Feats > No feats.

By feats, the sword is more powerful, so until a feat of power is given for the rune, it cannot BFR Link. Simple.

If we want to debate the melee fight, that's something else entirely, but Link has some pretty significant feats for physical prowess as well that you need to be aware of if you choose to debate that route.

T-Wrecks
"If we want to debate the melee fight, that's something else entirely, but Link has some pretty significant feats for physical prowess as well that you need to be aware of if you choose to debate that route."

You're gonna have to point those out to me because I've played all but one Zelda (not counting those awful CD-i games) and haven't noticed any melee feats out of any of the Links. The closest I'd call a feat would be the final fight in Wind Waker (which was actually pretty rad), but it was a gameplay fight and not a cutscene and as cool as it was, it didn't represent Link as being anything beyond and average swordsman (who mostly just reacts and counters). Most Links have no prior combat training before the game and their fighting style boils down to just waving their krytonite sword at the nearest guy who is automatically weak to it. All of the Links start off from a humble background, one was even a freaking train conductor for crying out loud, and have no real world fighting experience. A few Links have some training with the local "sword master", but since the master's abilities aren't quantified, we have no way of knowing how strong these said masters are (it can be assumed their skill is only being measured against the other male villagers, which isn't saying much) and thus how skilled Link is in comparison. And keep in mind, since Link is the pupil, so he is technically weaker than the master by definition. Tir on the other hand was raised by a person who is noted as the best warrior in their military and has been trained for many years prior to the game. Aside from all the regular combat in the game, Tir also leads an entire army in various full military battles and ultimately defeats his dad, the guy who was supposed to be the best. This means that Tir is not only as good as his quantified father, but actually better.

Another thing about Link is his boss fights. Outside of Ganon, who we've established is automatically weak to Link, how many bosses has Link beaten with just the sword? None outside of the NES games to my knowledge, most of the bosses are immune to damage until you reveal their weak spot using the item that was conveniently located in the same building. You can swing the almighty Master Sword all you want, but it won't do anything until their obvious weak spot is exposed. Now granted this is a gameplay thing, but since there are no story boss fights we have to assume that if this were a book or movie, Link would still need to do this. My point is that Link doesn't really rely on bare combat, he relies on using obvious exploitable weakness. That doesn't make him a badass warrior, it makes him kind of an ******* actually, but at the vary least any strapping young man could beat most of his enemies the same way (except Ganon since as stated you need the Master Sword to hurt him). You can't cheese enemies to death in Suikoden, meaning that all of Tir's victories were earned in fair combat.

CosmicComet
Skyward Sword Link, the very first Link, who had no training other than what he learned from his village folk, soloed an army of demons conjured up by Ghirahim. And Ghirahim conjured them up specifically with the idea that he knew they would not stand a chance.

He specifically told them that they were probably going to die against Link, and that they were meant to be nothing but a diversion for time.

Then when Link finally reaches Ghirahim, Ghirahim curses Link for 'being too fast', because the demons did not grant him enough time to complete the ritual.


Tir's best solo combat feats in comparison? Beating a featless Qwanda and his father in seperate duels.

In melee, Tir gets annihilated.

Blight
Wait, your feat for link is that he beat a bunch of creatures who were summoned to be cannon fodder faster than expected? Some feat. And some army of demons.

T-Wrecks
Here is the biggest problem though (aside from not stating how Link defeats these enemies or posting anything to illustrate your point), you're assuming that either there is only one Link and he has the feats from every game, or this is against Skyward Link (which is the only Zelda I haven't played BTW) specifically. It's hard to say what's what when we don't even know who Tir is fighting. That aside, until I see this supposed epic monster Dynasty Warrior fight, I don't see any Link fights that put any of the Links at Tir's combat level.

"Wait, your feat for link is that he beat a bunch of creatures who were summoned to be cannon fodder faster than expected? Some feat. And some army of demons."

Hahahhaha, nice...

ScreamPaste
It's not like those same demons nearly eradicated the entire hylian race to the extent that the last living hylians were all herded onto a single floating island or anything.

dHqZVOHaTx8


Yes, they were cannon fodder... Against Link.

Edit: And let me be clear here. This is just Link working with his Charles Atlas Superpower, he doesn't even have the ToC in this game.

Every Link is super human, and backs that with feats. Tossing giants made of rock around, chucking pillars, sword fighting super-human opponents, lifting and moving heavy shit, ect.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by Blight
Wait, your feat for link is that he beat a bunch of creatures who were summoned to be cannon fodder faster than expected? Some feat. And some army of demons.

No, my feat for Link is that an army of demon swordsmen, archers, grenadiers, giant pikemen, and undead dual sword wielding skeletons were expected to do no better against Link than be an adequate stall for time--and in the end, they were even less than adequate at that.

Please don't use usless buzzwords in order to discredit something. Afterall, what does that say about Tir, who has far less than even that?



smile

edit: one more thing, about 'quantifying' skill. You can't. You can only quantify reflexes, hand-eye-coordination, and general speed--things that are generally expected to form skill. Now, is Qwanda Rossman or Tir's dad quantifiable in any of those respects? No. Absolutely not. Not even with statements. So there is no way of gauging their skill either is there?

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by CosmicComet
No, my feat for Link is that an army of demon swordsmen, archers, grenadiers, giant pikemen, and undead dual sword wielding skeletons were expected to do no better against Link than be an adequate stall for time--and in the end, they were even less than adequate at that.

Please don't use usless buzzwords in order to discredit something. Afterall, what does that say about Tir, who has far less than even that?



smile Get on Skype you lesbian.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Get on Skype you lesbian.

phuck you, b!tch. leaving me out to dry like that for weeks.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by CosmicComet
phuck you, b!tch. leaving me out to dry like that for weeks. I was drunk D:<

ScreamPaste
All right, Blight and T.

I have a proposal. You guys seem fairly confident Tir can win this, so what say we pick a Link and debate this with that one specific link from here on out.

I suggest Skyward Sword Link, Twilight Princess Link, or Ocarina of Time Link.

We already have Skyward feats in here, so that would be easiest, imho. smile

Blight
Ah, so essentially in the rules of this forum we can only go by feats which renders character useless when they have none. So Link could beat say, Shadow from Final Fantasy in nothing but hand to hand due to shadow having no feats. Works for debate I suppose, but not for anything with common sense. Congratulations on winning the debate, I suppose. Doesn't change what would actually happen smile

The Scenario
So, how about that "protection from Twilight" thing the Master Sword showed? With some help from the Triforce of Courage, Link does have proven supernatural resistances that do not affect only evil effects. Until the Soul Eater shows some way to pierce that resistance, I'm leaning towards the Master Sword no selling its ability.

As for fighting ability, skill is indeed difficult to quantify. Which is why I won't try and instead give Link's abilities:

Ocarina of Time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48AEDFgH4jY#t=3m42s

Link's strength with Golden Gauntlets is through the roof. Enough to make up for a skill difference? Maybe, maybe not, but that would be rather difficult to block.

Wind Waker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkS1GFQhldc#t=2m48s

Similar item, but a little less strength. Still wouldn't want him to hit you, though.

Twilight Princess
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE6x19jE6Vk#t=1m6s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAJACleGuOs#t=4m37s

Twilight Princess Link is unique for being freakishly strong without an item, which is pretty nice. Tossing armored guys made of rock and large icebergs around is some good strength.

Skyward Sword
This one is more powerscaling, I freely admit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJBMUyekvhk#t=28s

Ghirahim is capable of blowing through large stone walls in his weakest form. By the end of the game, Link can overpower Ghirahim's strongest form, often knocking him off balance when they clash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHtO9q7s66o#t=4m9s

ScreamPaste
Tir's largest advantage is nullified by something more powerful. This is what would actually happen. :P

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by The Scenario
So, how about that "protection from Twilight" thing the Master Sword showed? With some help from the Triforce of Courage, Link does have proven supernatural resistances that do not affect only evil effects. Until the Soul Eater shows some way to pierce that resistance, I'm leaning towards the Master Sword no selling its ability.

As for fighting ability, skill is indeed difficult to quantify. Which is why I won't try and instead give Link's abilities:

Ocarina of Time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48AEDFgH4jY#t=3m42s

Link's strength with Golden Gauntlets is through the roof. Enough to make up for a skill difference? Maybe, maybe not, but that would be rather difficult to block.

Wind Waker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkS1GFQhldc#t=2m48s

Similar item, but a little less strength. Still wouldn't want him to hit you, though.

Twilight Princess
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE6x19jE6Vk#t=1m6s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAJACleGuOs#t=4m37s

Twilight Princess Link is unique for being freakishly strong without an item, which is pretty nice. Tossing armored guys made of rock and large icebergs around is some good strength.

Skyward Sword
This one is more powerscaling, I freely admit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJBMUyekvhk#t=28s

Ghirahim is capable of blowing through large stone walls in his weakest form. By the end of the game, Link can overpower Ghirahim's strongest form, often knocking him off balance when they clash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHtO9q7s66o#t=4m9s God, I love you sometimes. I was going to post that last one myself.

Was also going to mention

hJBMUyekvhk The shield Ghirahim shatters after smashing through the wall is powerful enough to hold back millions of tons of water.

Link physically bests him. \o/

Skype?

CosmicComet
Originally posted by Blight
Ah, so essentially in the rules of this forum we can only go by feats which renders character useless when they have none.

Absolutely. If you don't have feats, you lose. Unless there's some statements for implied power or powerscaling available to be involved. This goes for comic debates as well--only over there they simply allow more room for tolerating subjectivity than here.



Don't know who the hell that is, but I'm amused by your butt hurt.

Why the hell would we give Tir the victory if he doesn't have the feats? lol. That's the only logic we have to present here.

Blight
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Tir's largest advantage is nullified by something more powerful. This is what would actually happen. :P

But it wouldn't. Until the master sword is partially responsible for the universe existing, I will never believe it is less powerful than the Soul Eater. But hold on to your opinion, for all the good it does.

Not butt hurt at all, just trying to understand things. I understand the whole feats thing, I just happen to think there are logical inconsistencies when talking about using only feats in videogames. Especially when it pertains to older RPG's. It essentially renders every RPG from the eighties through the mid nineties 100% ineffectual. It certainly isn't much of a true gauge, but I understand its all you van really quantify. Just kind of... Lame.

CosmicComet
If your favorite games are old and lack feats, thats just too bad.

You don't have to like a game for feat potential. stick out tongue

Blight
No but it neuters any potential debate you can have when you know who the clear winner is. If we went by implied power I suppose I could argue that since the soul eater is one of 27 things that made the universe, I guess I could argue that's more powerful than a blessing by angels, but it would be unquantifiable.

Again, I still know Tir would win. I just can't prove it by anything the forum would allow.

ScreamPaste
Sword blessed by all three of the things that made the Zelda verse! HAH!

stick out tongue

The Scenario
Yeah, it's just impossible to argue how powerful something is when all there is to go on is numbers that can't apply to other game universes. Implied power is nice (and to some extent usable) but it doesn't stand up to concrete feats.

'k, being one of 27 runes that created the universe is good. That's at least something to work with. The Master Sword has something similar. We all know it wrecks Ganon, the holder of the Triforce of Power. 1/3 of the Triforce, which is the Artifact of the goddesses who created the universe, and is capable of granting wishes and/or rewriting reality.

Triforce ~ creators of universe
Triforce of Power = 1/3 Triforce
Triforce of Power ~ 1/3 creators of universe
Master Sword > Triforce of Power
Master Sword > 1/3 Triforce
Master Sword > 1/3 creators of universe

That being the normal way of looking at it. In Skyward Sword, the Master Sword was also forged in the divine flames of the three goddesses as well. So is that good enough?

Blight
Originally posted by The Scenario
Yeah, it's just impossible to argue how powerful something is when all there is to go on is numbers that can't apply to other game universes. Implied power is nice (and to some extent usable) but it doesn't stand up to concrete feats.

'k, being one of 27 runes that created the universe is good. That's at least something to work with. The Master Sword has something similar. We all know it wrecks Ganon, the holder of the Triforce of Power. 1/3 of the Triforce, which is the Artifact of the goddesses who created the universe, and is capable of granting wishes and/or rewriting reality.

Triforce ~ creators of universe
Triforce of Power = 1/3 Triforce
Triforce of Power ~ 1/3 creators of universe
Master Sword > Triforce of Power
Master Sword > 1/3 Triforce
Master Sword > 1/3 creators of universe

That being the normal way of looking at it. In Skyward Sword, the Master Sword was also forged in the divine flames of the three goddesses as well. So is that good enough?
I would think it was enough if it WAS one of the forces that made the universe, but its not. It was only made by them. Doesn't equal the power in my opinion.

CosmicComet
blight make some game vs threads please, we're kinda flagging in activity and new blood helps. :P

Blight
Flagging in activity? What exactly does this mean?

CosmicComet
flagging;

dwindling. weak. fatigued.

take your pick.

Blight
Maybe it's because all people do is argue feats which don't always accurately describe a character's worth? erm

CosmicComet
No, that's not it.

We have more thorough, 10,000 character breaking multi-post debates here than happens on comic vs, precisely because we argue feats more intensely.

It's just we have less characters to argue for.

TheAuraAngel
Originally posted by Blight
Maybe it's because all people do is argue feats which don't always accurately describe a character's worth? erm

Probably.

Blight
Originally posted by CosmicComet
No, that's not it.

We have more thorough, 10,000 character breaking multi-post debates here than happens on comic vs, precisely because we argue feats more intensely.

It's just we have less characters to argue for. I think it is it. Because I'm already turned off from posting anywhere here because of it, for the most part.

CosmicComet
Ok, we won't miss you.

You were trying to give the win to a guy that you could not based on lack of physical feats and lack of destructive/magical feats--nor a concrete way of powerscaling to back up for said lack of feats.

Blight
Are you seriously that pissed that I never conceded a win? Sorry that I don't subscribe to the belief that every character is meaningless unless he has story based feats to back it up.

By that logic, Link could defeat the entire Liberation Army because no one within it has any actual feats. Good thing you and I both know in actuality that wouldn't happen.

Have fun with your dead forum, bro. I guess you win. erm

TheAuraAngel
Well it was fun while it lasted I guess.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by Blight
Are you seriously that pissed that I never conceded a win? Sorry that I don't subscribe to the belief that every character is meaningless unless he has story based feats to back it up.

By that logic, Link could defeat the entire Liberation Army because no one within it has any actual feats. Good thing you and I both know in actuality that wouldn't happen.

Have fun with your dead forum, bro. I guess you win. erm

You did concede a win? When you admitted you couldn't prove your case.

I'm not mad about anything at all really. I'm just perplexed that you are upset about not having a case to prove? I mean, that's just basic. You can argue something that has feats and no character, but you can't really argue something that has character and no feats--or even a discernible alternate way of gauging their levels.

And no, there are people within the Toran Republic with feats.

Stallion alone would cause Link problems with his speed.

Blight
My thing, in general, is that I'm trying more to ascertain what would actually happen. I get that feats are the debatable thing to do.

Let me ask you this. Who do you ACTUALLY think would win in the fight? My guess is Link, but I think that you can understand my feelings on the subject. It's extremely frustrating to deal with two completely different forms of the medium. One doesn't have FMV's, or any real cutscenes to deal with. We have a character who you are supposed to represent (doesn't even talk) so everything you do is what he does. But when you have an artifact that is the "Embodiment of Life and Death", one that is of 27 different things whom are considered the Gods of the World and have different motives, it's hard to swallow that a Sword that was blessed by gods (not a sword that is a god itself) would somehow overpower it. I get that the Feats suggest it would, but only because the former doesn't have anything to DISprove it. So you get to hold the higher ground per forum rules, but it doesn't change the fact that essentially you're telling me that a Sword made by gods is better than a God itself. I dunno about you but I don't think Perseus' sword is doing shit to Hades, know what I mean?

Again, you hold the high ground and I will concede to that. Skyward Sword Link has the feats to back up his forum win. I just don't think that's saying all that much, to be honest.

And Stallion is the only one with any real hard feats. I can't think of anyone else. Maybe Joshua, since he can summon dragons that will kill scores of an army.

I have to wonder, if a Suikoden were made this year, whether or not we'd be having a different conversation.

The Scenario
Hmm. The problem with the word "god" is that it does not indicate a character's power level very well. Best I can do is more Legend of Zelda, but you know the Great Deku Tree and Jabu-Jabu from Ocarina of Time and Valoo from Wind Waker? All of them are technically considered gods, being the patron deities of the Kokiri, Zora, and Rito, respectively. Ganondorf killed two of them. Also in Wind Waker, there's this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOwxFDApoTE#t=5m10s
That guy? God of winds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIIdL7VQPFE#t=42s
The guy Link is hurting with arrows? God of cyclones.

The long and short of it is that the word "god" doesn't have the same meaning across different fictional universes, and it certainly does not imply a consistent level of power among them. If it did, Link's Fierce Deity Mask, known for turning him into a god, would be an auto-win against most opponents. In reality, there's nothing backing that up, especially when Zelda deities have such wildly varying power levels. A god in one game is not equal to a god in another, and there are mortal characters than could annihilate both Lezend of Zelda and Suikoden at the same time without being considered gods.

On the other hand, there is consistent, concrete proof that the Master Sword is more powerful than the Triforce of Power (and in A Link to the Past, the whole Triforce.) Din's power, which created the physical universe, doesn't stand up to it. It holds back the effects of another dimension, protects it user from quite a few things, and routinely wrecks Ganon powered by a piece of creation. So I see no particular reason to give a win to Soul Eater just because the word "god" is associated with it.

If more examples are needed, how about God of War? There's some time where Kratos wields the Blades of Athena and kills multiple gods with them. He steals Hades' hooks, which affected Titans. He steals whatever weapons Hercules had and used them to hurt Titans, and Hercules isn't even a god. Hephaestus' whole thing is making weapons that kill gods. If a weapon blessed by god couldn't hurt another god, there'd be no point in using them.

Blight
Originally posted by The Scenario
Hmm. The problem with the word "god" is that it does not indicate a character's power level very well. Best I can do is more Legend of Zelda, but you know the Great Deku Tree and Jabu-Jabu from Ocarina of Time and Valoo from Wind Waker? All of them are technically considered gods, being the patron deities of the Kokiri, Zora, and Rito, respectively. Ganondorf killed two of them. Also in Wind Waker, there's this:

Right, this only gives me the impression that the "Gods" of the Zelda Universe aren't really up to snuff. The only thing that has come close to killing a "God" of the Suikoden Universe, was posessing using 2 other "Gods" to destroy it. Arrows wouldn't do the trick, they aren't technically corporeal.



It's not really my fault that Gods suck ass in Zelda.



This I can agree with.



Yeah it pretty much boils down to opinion at that point. Though I don't, however, think it's opinion that Tir would lose to Link if it's the Link from Legend of Zelda (As the thread name implies).

That could be argued that since they were forged by gods, they could kill gods. Not to mention the gods wouldn't have won in the first place had their weapons not worked. God of War tends to really hammer it home that Gods are Mortal and live their lives just as we do, albeit with more power and much higher up (Barring Poseidon and Hades).

I had totally forgotten about this debate, hence the length for a response stick out tongue

The Scenario
Originally posted by Blight
Right, this only gives me the impression that the "Gods" of the Zelda Universe aren't really up to snuff. The only thing that has come close to killing a "God" of the Suikoden Universe, was posessing using 2 other "Gods" to destroy it. Arrows wouldn't do the trick, they aren't technically corporeal.


Some of them are, some of them aren't. It ranges from creating the universe and controlling time to giving people wings or changing he direction of the wind. Or just not doing anything at all and being worshiped anyway. I'm just wondering where exactly the Suikoden gods are on that scale, if at all. If it's still the 1/27th of the power that created the universe, then we're still talking about a sword that can kill and protect from 1/3rd of the power that created the universe. I'm not really clear on why the sword is being considered less powerful in that case.



That wasn't really my point. Weak gods aren't a feature limited to Zelda, it was just the most convenient example. There are universes with gods who rule over single blades of grass, or gods dedicated to hangovers. Again, the word "god" does not automatically imply power, so we need some other way to measure that. Feats are nice, but legends or statements can work in a pinch.

Question. Are the Runes considered gods?



If it is the original Legend of Zelda, Tir probably does win. I won't dispute that one. However, 1/3rd being greater than 1/27th is a fact, how does opinion factor into it?



Not necessarily the mortal bit, but otherwise, yes. Greek deities have human flaws and traits, but they are rather consistently above and aren't considered mortals. However, the Master Sword is quite clearly a divine weapon. It was known as the Goddess Sword because it was created by Hylia, and was then tempered by the sacred flames of Din, Farore, and Nayru into the Master Sword. That's 4 goddesses involved in the creation of this one weapon, not to mention the consistency in which it defeats the Triforce of Power, or that Link is also the usual holder of the Triforce of Courage.

If it's down to a game of "who has more god stuff," Link is a contender.



It happens.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Blight




It's not really my fault that Gods suck ass in Zelda.



Ok, I'm just jumping in here, so Im not sure what the context is (to lazy to bother), but I will say that If these are the Goddesses that you're referring to, than please understand that they wield absolute power. Need proof?

jeX9jXH-n9Q

2:15 A god speaking about the Gods

Also, wassup my Hylian brother, Scenario?

The Scenario
Originally posted by LLLLLink
Also, wassup my Hylian brother, Scenario?

Nothing much. This thread is the most excitement we've had in ages.

As for context, we were mostly talking about Zephos and Cyclos as examples of gods that aren't all powerful. What with "god" being a title and not a measure of power and all.

Blight
I don't think you're understanding my point. There is a difference between BEING a god and being a Weapon created by a god.

I understand it's confusing since it's multiple games. Rune's are considered the Gods of the Suikoden Universe. The one in question embodies the notion of life and Death. The Master Sword is a sword created by one of three gods (Or Apparently 4 now, which is it?). I don't see how that makes it more powerful (Not saying it rule's it out, however). The Fractional debate doesn't really apply is what I'm getting at, unless you're saying that the Master Sword embodies the power of whatever Goddess made it... If not, then it's probably more like 1/91564006548945489450456406 OF 1/3rd against 1/27. This boils down to Opinion once again. Unfortunately, Suikoden (Being Sprite Based) doesn't have enough feats to beat a composite link in a forum battle, if that helps explain my stance, however.

The Scenario
Originally posted by Blight
I don't think you're understanding my point. There is a difference between BEING a god and being a Weapon created by a god.


Yes, but it's not like the difference is that apparent when the weapon is capable of overpowering the god in question. That's my point: The Master Sword has shown the ability to resist, seal, and/or kill a being powered by 1/3rd of creation. If it helps, compare the Soul Eater to the Triforce of Power. One embodies Life and Death, the other embodies the concept of Power. Since the Master Sword regularly deals with one of these things, I don't really see why the other is somehow exempt.



'k, this might also be a little confusing. There are 3 creator deities in Zelda: Din (Power), Nayru (Wisdom), and Farore (Courage) that created the universe. The Goddess Sword was created by a 4th goddess named Hylia, who is not creator deity (she didn't help create the universe, essentially) but instead protected the Triforce. Later, the Goddess Sword was imbued with power from all 4 goddesses and was turned into the Master Sword.

However, I'm not saying the Master Sword is greater than 1/3rd because it was created by a goddess or that it embodies however much of her power. I'm saying it's greater than 1/3rd because it routinely goes up against the Triforce of Power and wins. Maybe the Master Sword is 1 millionth of 1/3; I just don't think it matters that you didn't create the universe when you're capable of beating the one who, for all intents and purposes, actually did.

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