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Who wins?

Beyonder. He made the LT and all the other abstracts wet their pants.

beyonder dominates him...there is nothing that can stop him

PR Beyonder

So then PR Beyonder=TOAA?

Originally posted by Mr Marvel
So then PR Beyonder=TOAA?

He was equal to TOAA within the Marvel omniverse.

Is PR post or pre retcon?

Current LT wins

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Current LT wins

Since he became millions times stronger, right?

Well he does have much better showings than he did back then

beyonder leik tootaly scareed teh lt, so he wins fo sho!!11! duryes

Pre-Reconn Beyonder wasn't even aware there existed a universe - much less an omniverse - beyond his native world. For that reason alone I'll give it to Living Tribunal.

This thread again.

nvrbeenwthagirl made this thread at least 5 times already.

Classic Beyonder stomps like always.

Beyonder dominates. Imo he was so powerful they had to retcon him.

but don't all the supreme beings get retcon, offically or not ?..i mean the beyonder was from the 80's on a whim of the editor/chief ( as a side is the editor/chief the boss of what is known as marvel?)..
who was supreme before him?...did he get retcon or just become irrevelant...Galactus appeared in the 60's...was he supreme being then? and if he was, what was the supreme being before he came?...and if they keep changing who/what the supreme being is..the title loses significance...

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He was equal to TOAA within the Marvel omniverse.

What the HELL? Equal to the TOAA with in the marvel Omniverse? let's break down this statement.

He was equal to the one who created him.
He was equal to the one who created in within the marvel Omniverse( no where in secret wars is omniverse mentioned anywhere. No where does marvel say that the multiverse of old is the omniverse of today)
The One above all was never mentioned in Secret wars at all.

I must say that your statement is there for incorrect and untrue.

He was NOT equal to TOAA within the Marvel Omniverse!!!

He was equal to TOAA in the sense that they both would have had absolutely infinite and uncontested powers within the multiverse.

BTW, I don't agree with the statement that he was in any sense equal to TOAA, just wanted to clarify it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
He was equal to TOAA in the sense that they both would have had absolutely infinite and uncontested powers within the multiverse.

BTW, I don't agree with the statement that he was in any sense equal to TOAA, just wanted to clarify it.

How can they both be uncontested. If he met the TOAA would you say that he would stalemate him?

Originally posted by fangirl101
How can they both be uncontested.
If he met the TOAA would you say that he would stalemate him?
TOAA is inconsequential to this type of categorization.

it's a character withIN Marvel yes,
but it's a character that's portrayed
as the artist and the writer of everything that happens on panel,
therefore, no other drawing can contest against that.

This is why placing TOAA in a battle is an inconsequential, and self developed paradox,
it can't work out for said reasons.

Originally posted by King Kandy

He was equal to TOAA
in the sense that they both would have had absolutely infinite
and uncontested powers within the multiverse.


He was the most powerful character ever developed by TOAA,
right along with THOTI's scale of power.
Originally posted by King Kandy

BTW, I don't agree with the statement that he was in any sense equal to TOAA, just wanted to clarify it.
I agree.

Ever since we understood
that the TOAA are two characters that make up and draw everything we read on panel,
it is logical and factual to understand that TOAA simply can not be challenged.

It's not a question of feats or scale of power,
it's simply that what TOAA is, can not be challenged for said reasons.

The creator of the Beyonder & both Secret Wars series was Jim Shooter,
hence though it was not mentioned , by default,
Shooter (the writer) and Al Milgrom (the artist) were TOAA.



Oh .. and Beyonder annihilates the LT effortlessly.

Beyonder though wasn't all that tough really, most of it was illusion.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Imo he was so powerful they had to retcon him. that was the opinion of pretty much everyone on marvel's payroll (beside shooter, obviously). such ridicule is why beyonder was ultimately retconned.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Beyonder though wasn't all that tough really, most of it was illusion.
What are you talking about? ... This must be sarcasm.

Everything Beyonder did,
everything Beyonder was before he was retconned, was legit.

Originally posted by Galan007

that was the opinion of pretty much everyone on marvel's payroll (beside shooter, obviously).
such ridicule is why beyonder was ultimately retconned.
I'm not sure if you're agreeing or not with ol' quan, but ...

... G, that was the reasoning behind DeFalco's retcon of the Beyonder.

Originally posted by Mr Master
What are you talking about? ... This must be sarcasm.

Everything Beyonder did,
everything Beyonder was before he was retconned, was legit.
No, the very fact that it was retconned in fact proves that it is not legit.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Beyonder though wasn't all that tough really, most of it was illusion. Hence the PRE in Pre-Retcon Beyonder.

It baffles me how pre and post retcon Beyonder are treated as separate characters... There are NO other characters who have this kind of duality applied to them.

Originally posted by King Kandy

No, the very fact that it was retconned in fact proves that it is not legit.
Is this a trick statement?

Btw. You do know that Post-Beyonder
still did erase 616 Death from the Universe right? (pre-retcon it was Multi-Death)

As well as giving Rachel the Full power of the Phoenix Force.
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx

Hence the PRE in Pre-Retcon Beyonder.

Remember when you pointed out that Here Comes Tomorrow might be non-canon? I guess people could have just said they were talking about "pre-retcon" Jean and avoid any such argument. Does canon even matter anymore?

Originally posted by King Kandy

It baffles me how pre and post retcon Beyonder are treated as separate characters...
There are NO other characters who have this kind of duality applied to them.
What? ... Actually it's the same character but de-powered.

MOST of what Beyonder did, is still credited even to his Post-Retcon version.

We know it's the same character
cause the original Secret Wars still affects characters today,
as in, maany stories were developed because of Secret Wars, (Web of Spiderman amongst others)
and other characters originated from the Secret Wars. (like Titania and Volcana)

Pre-retcon Brothers ... PR Owen Reece amongst others.
...Pre-Crisis Super Man and a whole bunch of Pre-Crisis DC cats.

There's a difference... PC Superman actually existed, he was just erased in the crisis... he wasn't retconned into not having been around in the first place. He's distinct from current Superman. Beyonder is the same character but for some reason PR Beyonder is still treated as different.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Remember when you pointed out that Here Comes Tomorrow might be non-canon?
I guess people could have just said they were talking about "pre-retcon" Jean
and avoid any such argument.
That's a totally different argument friend.

HCT comes is in direct opposing contact when 616 Jean's history
withIN arcs that are recognized in her bio.

Also, the story is thrown out of nowhere into an alternate future,
which, is what I believe it truly was, an alternate version of 616 Jean.


Jean died at the hands of Xorn, the Force was shattered by Xorn, (all within 616)
the Force returned to the WHR to heal, and Jean was buried,
then, the Force was ripped back to reality by the Shiar,
then in 616 the Force resurrected Jean who was in a grave which took place in Endsong,
then at the end of Endsong the Force merged with Jean fully, they became one.
then Jean appeared in the What If
(Rise and Fall of the Shiar) as the embodiment of the Force,
which was a fact since Endsong. (all above took place canon to 616)

So, what, or how did Jean end up in an Egg 150 years in the future,
not merged to the Force? No explanation for that, cause there is none.

Doesn't make sense.

Which is why HCT is completely ignored by both the Pheonix Force's 2005 bio,
and Jean Grey's 2008 bio.


btw.

No where in either bio is there anything mentioned about any "White Crown" Jean.

Endsong or the What IF, makes no mention of any White Crown Jean either.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Does canon even matter anymore?
Of course it does.

They are the same. You won't find any modern-day bio crediting Beyonder with his pre-retcon levels of power. This is the same case with HCT. It is non-canon but people still use it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
There's a difference... PC Superman actually existed, he was just erased in the crisis... he wasn't retconned into not having been around in the first place. He's distinct from current Superman. Beyonder is the same character but for some reason PR Beyonder is still treated as different. Because it is before the retcon, everything that was revealed after does not matter. Before the retcon, Beyonder was established as the ultimate being in Marvel's existence, what he was reduced to after is not relevant.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Because it is before the retcon, everything that was revealed after does not matter. Before the retcon, Beyonder was established as the ultimate being in Marvel's existence, what he was reduced to after is not relevant.
Alright. Just expect me to use this logic in any future threads so I can easily dismiss bad showings of my favorite characters.

Originally posted by King Kandy

There's a difference... PC Superman actually existed, he was just erased in the crisis... he wasn't retconned into not having been around in the first place. He's distinct from current Superman. Beyonder is the same character but for some reason PR Beyonder is still treated as different.
Beyonder always existed as well, again,
as you already know, he was simply de-powered.

Instead of erasing Multi-Death, he erased 616 Death.
Which by today standards may be = to multiversal Death anyway. (don't quote me)

Post-Beyonder still gave the Rachel the Full power of the PF, impressive.

Defeating the Celestials was retconned into the Celestials letting him do it.

Scarring the LT and Eternity was also allowed by LT and Eternity, so that was retconned.

But threatening the 616 Universe is still credited to Post-retcon.

So basically, their were certain scenarios that were taken off his feats list,
but their were others that are still to this day on his resume.

I understand that, this was not my argument at all. I was saying that it's stupid to use pre AND post retcon versions when NO other character is thus split.

Originally posted by King Kandy

They are the same.
You won't find any modern-day bio crediting Beyonder with his pre-retcon levels of power.
I already said he was de-powered, but some of his awesome feats are still legit:

..................................................................


Post-retcon erased Death from the 616 Universe: (Death bio - 2006)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543238_death.jpg

................................................................


POST-Retcon Beyonder gave Rachel the FULL power of the embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2004 - Marvel Girl bio)
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6149/beyonderpfbiojb3.th.jpg

"Beyonder once hinted
that Rachel could potentially become equal in power to the previous Phoenix.

Indeed,
the Beyonder granted Rachel the Full power that the previous Phoenix had possessed"

..................................................................

Come on K, you gotta admit, for a Cube being, that's impressive.

He's done other things outside of Secret Wars too.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Alright. Just expect me to use this logic in any future threads so I can easily dismiss bad showings of my favorite characters.
Well, if your character was legitimately retconned, you have that right.

Mr Master, you seem to think that i'm saying Beyonder is weak. No, he's incredibly strong. I never was arguing about his power level, i'm saying that like every other character on the forum he shouldn't be using this pre/post retcon nonsense.

People don't seem to fully understand what a retcon is around here.

This thread is so annoying. The same exact bullshit is being brought up and hell even that Chresh guy has stuck his nose in and no doubt he will rant that "retcon means revelation!" blah blah thus showing his ignorance of the purpose of any pre-retcon thread

Reported

Originally posted by Creshosk
People don't seem to fully understand what a retcon is around here.
And reported for baiting.

I should've made myself clear. For that, I am sorry. I didn't mean he's equal to the OAA as far as ultimate control or anything. I meant that, within the MU, no one could touch Pre-Beyonder, not even the LT.

Settle down good friends

Its why I don't partcipate in these threads

I'll only say, Beyonder was retconned for a reason. LT is still here

FYI this is Classic Beyonder

and

i know all about pre beyonder, friend

Pre-Beyonder destroys.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Mr Master, you seem to think that i'm saying Beyonder is weak.
No, he's incredibly strong. I never was arguing about his power level
Cool, it's just that you confused me when you said:
Originally posted by King Kandy

Beyonder though wasn't all that tough really, most of it was illusion.
This is a bit misleading good friend, most of what Beyonder did in his Pre-era,
actually did happen,
it's a misconception to states that most of what he did was an illusion.

I'm not blaming you for this K, I've seen others make this incorrect claim.


For the record:

The only feats of the original Beyonder that were retconned (nullified) were:

1. Making the LT and the rest of the Multiversal Abstracts tremble in fear.
(retconned to just threatening Eternity)
2. Being Millions of times more powerful than LT and the Multiverse combined.
(completely retconned)
3. Creating a Reality that was an Ocean compared to the infinite Multiverse (a drop of water)
(retconned into a normal whole Universe)
4. Stomping the Celestials hand to hand.
(retconned into the Celestials allowing it)
5. Defeating Galactus' World Ship empowered Doom.
(retconned, specifics below)


That's it.


Evidently Beyonder was still really going to destroy Eternity,
and Eternity still needed to even leech off of some of Beyonder's power
in order to try and defeat him with Beyondersbane

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543810_Beyo1.jpg

(from Eternity's 2006 Handbook bio)




The incident with Doom stealing Galactus' power during Secret Wars is still canon,
only it was Galactus' power, not the World Ship's it seems cause that's not mentioned,
and apparently Doom getting defeated with said power is also canon,
because it goes on to state that Doom gained Beyonder's power too,
and we all know how that happened.

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543809_beyo2.jpg

(Dr Doom's 2005 Handbook bio)




See,
in Galactrus' 2005 Handbook bio,
it sates Galactus was going to eat Battleworld, not the Ship itself.

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543847_beyo3.jpg



So, as a man of truth I must submit,
it's clear that this was retconned a bit,
from Beyonder defeating a Galactus's Ship empowered Doom,
to defeating a normal Galactus empowered Doom.
Originally posted by King Kandy

i'm saying that like every other character on the forum
he shouldn't be using this pre/post retcon nonsense.

Well that's been going on in this forum for ever, and other comic book forums seem to not have a problem with this.

So I guess it's a personal observation whether one likes it or not.

Simple solution though,
don't like it, don't participate in said type threads.

Lt for the win

This thread will be closed and warnings given if people can't be civil.