Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Let's start with your opinions of the Joker in the TDK.

How do you view him?

Is he a victim of an abusive father?

Is he a man who really hates the world?

Is he the Yang (or Ying of Batman) in this film?

Is he evil?

Why so philosophical?

My take...The Joker is simply the extreme and a force that should never be try to touch or try to use. You bargain with the devil...if you catch my drift.

To be honest, I saw him as being perfectly sane in the movie. In a way, he was sort of helping the world. He was killing mobsters, and opening the world's eyes. He was very chaotic & sinister & I felt he was only doing what he wanted to do at times, but on a bigger scale had a big plan.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Let's start with your opinions of the Joker in the TDK.

How do you view him?

Is he a victim of an abusive father?

Is he a man who really hates the world?

Is he the Yang (or Ying of Batman) in this film?

Is he evil?

Why so philosophical?

My take...The Joker is simply the extreme and a force that should never be try to touch or try to use. You bargain with the devil...if you catch my drift.


Evil


He seemed very sane in the sense he was always in control and didnt seem crazy. He did terrible terrible things simply because he enjoyed them. The best example of him being evil to me would be the "how many friends have I killed?" scene.

All of the above

i saw the joker as some unstable person that likes to shake things up just cuz he can. No limits and no boundaries, and seeing things turn to sh*t.

as crazy as he was, he was also very smart. what he does, he does best, and he doesnt do it for free. He likes Batman, they have things in common, but he likes chaos, he's good at causin a ruckus so why not cause of ruckus for batman and get paid by the mob. I think he is crazy, how could someone clearly think the way he does. and get joy out of seeing the world crumble around him

He doesnt hate the world, he just wants to see it burn, for no apparent reason, except the fact that it can burn.

what guy would even think about pouring gasoline onto a giant pile of money, and for that matter, have the ability to do it!! His appearance clearly reflects his state of mind.

I think he was a sadistic man, but, for some reason, I always thought of him as not as insane as everyone thought he was...

A lot of his kills made too much sense... They weren't just random kills that someone truly insane would do... Loeb, the Judge, the Russian gangster, Gamble, etc. he all killed either to scare the people or to take over the criminal underworld... Much like Jack's Joker, imo... As much as people want to believe it, Ledger's Joker wasn't really "insane", he was more "misguided", like Ras was... He had an ideal and it was kinda screwy... He was a fanatic for anarchy, and that fit perfectly with Nolan's universe...

k three words the pencil scene

Originally posted by xNIXSONx
k three words the pencil scene

True, but I said A LOT of his kills, not ALL of his kills

I haven't read any of the comics. But to me, he is akin to Michael Myers in Halloween. He just 'is'. He just is evil. The personification of evil. He doesn't have to have a 'human' past of abuse or what have you that created him. He just 'is' and that IS cool for me.

Yea to me the interpretation of the Joker here is he is just someone evil who has no rules and will do whatever it takes to upset the establishment and amuse himself and unfortunately for the world he likes to amuse himself in sadistic ways. There's no treatment for the Joker, there's no justification good enough to explain what caused him to become this way because he's so extreme I don't think you could ever give him a back story that's good enough to explain his extremities and he's unstoppable because he has nothing to lose and is always one step ahead.

To me The Joker in The Dark Knight is somewhat a very sane man who sees the differences inh ow people view the world and he takes that and twists it into whatever he wants you to believe.

He was man & a very big plan. He was very sane but he seemed to almost want to die or see if anyone would kill him just for the fun of it.

I think he just acts like a kid and does whatever he wants to do, simply because he enjoys it

I don't think he was sane at all. I think he was in control and smart, but no one who is sane would treat people like pawns to the extent that he does. He's clearly a sociopath.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
All of the above

Originally posted by SelinaAndBruce
I don't think he was sane at all. I think he was in control and smart, but no one who is sane would treat people like pawns to the extent that he does. He's clearly a sociopath.

Possibly...

The Joker had a plan from the very start, as evidenced by the initial bank job. The stuff he says to Harvey/Two-Face in the hospital was just a ruse to get Two-Face to come into being. Obviously, he is also a masochist as seen by his taunts to Batman in the finale to the chase scene ("Come on! Hit me!", and his laughter as he plummets after Batman pushes him from the tower. However, the contradiction is that he is a man with a plan who is aiming for chaos. In simple terms, he's an extreme 'freedom fighter'.

Very good comments. I have a question to all of you who have posted. I would like a reply if you can.

Do you guys feel that The Joker is a very complicated character?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Very good comments. I have a question to all of you who have posted. I would like a reply if you can.

Do you guys feel that The Joker is a very complicated character?
looking from the outside yes ..but imo he is highly intelligent and knows exactly what he wants and how to get it. whilst giving the imperssion that he a lunatic/psyco

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Very good comments. I have a question to all of you who have posted. I would like a reply if you can.

Do you guys feel that The Joker is a very complicated character?

In my opinion , yes. He may not truly be psycho, but he knows exactly what he wants and knows how to achieve anything he desires.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Very good comments. I have a question to all of you who have posted. I would like a reply if you can.

Do you guys feel that The Joker is a very complicated character?
Yes and no. Clearly any individual who can pull of the kinds of things that he does has to be very intelligent and in tune with humanity and quite complex...however someone who has absolutely no rules is simple in one way because really he could do anything and they could justify it.

the joker is someone that we don't fully understand

Wow....Anyone who thinks someone who blows up a hospital is sane, seriously has some head checking to do.

He's a realist everything bar the deluded parental rantings is pretty much nail on the head, this is in no way a dumb kids movie the social and political undertones are very clever. Especially in the interrogation scene and when he's visiting Dent.

Watching Heath's Joker weave his web is like a basic Nietzsche 101 lesson

Him and Bat's are essentially after the same thing just they're at the very polar opposite ends and means of achieving it.

that's my 0.02 anyway

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Obviously, he is also a masochist as seen by his taunts to Batman in the finale to the chase scene ("Come on! Hit me!", and his laughter as he plummets after Batman pushes him from the tower.

I thought those were related to him trying to corrupt Batman into breaking his rule about not killing anyone. He knew Batman wouldn't run him over, but he kept taunting him by taking a few shots at the bike, hoping he'd 'win' by getting hit. Same as when he fell, Batman pushed him so technically he would have killed him, therefore breaking his rule and again the Joker 'wins'.

To Joker, it's all about the bigger picture. Things like getting run over, getting beaten up in the prison cell etc arent about masochism, its more about knowing that every punch he receives is pushing his 'incorruptible' enemies closer and closer to becoming like him, and he's willing to ignore pain/make the ultimate sacrifice to do so.


But then again, maybe he is a masochist and scarred himself for the pleasure srug

But there is no winning with the Joker as he said he's an engine/agent of chaos he doesn't live by rules of winning and losing as evident by the last fight with Batman 'we're destined to do this as you won't kill me etc... immovable force unstoppable object etc etc.' and the shear nihlism of not caring if Harvey Dent killed him or not in the hospital.

Your all looking on this as classic good vs evil approach but the fact is in the Joker's world there is no good vs evil it's classic Nietzsche beyond good and evil.

It's just action and reaction.

Originally posted by xNIXSONx
the joker is someone that we don't fully understand

Theres nothing to understand. The Joker thrives off choas and suffering. Whats so difficult to understand? Of course im not like that but its not a hard concept to understand that some people are just messed up.

The man said it himself, he's an agent of chaos.

he's a simple character - and he is the Chaos.

But a very sane chaotic. Chaos with a purpose, if there can even be such a thing.

I agree do a degree. I almost don't really view him as a character so much as the personification of something less tangible: chaos, evil, fear, adversity in general...he's kind of a symbol(like batman) and the great thing about symbols is they are open for you to give your own meaning to them so people can see the joker as representing several different things.

if i were to view him as a character i wouldn't say he is complicated so much as he is enigmatic. i think there is one driving force behind him and there's nothing else to him. we just don't really understand what that is.

That begs the question...if he really is an agent of chaos...then how does he have a plan? (i.e. if we're going by the definition of the word: "chaos" which implies "no order"

He is a master mind criminial...no denying that...so we see conflict here with the Joker as an agent of chaos and at the same time someone that keeps his master plan in order...his plan was always to corrupt that which isn't corruptible.

(maybe I should move this to the philosophy forum)

This brings me to one question: Is the Joker devil incarnate?

In the mythology of the comics he would be consider that...however, in TDK it can't be since there really isn't supernatural stated in the storyline.

He could simply be just what Alfred said...a man who wants to see the world burn.

Then again, that would be Alfred's POV.

I saw him as a man who wanted to kill, burn the world, and open people's eyes...specifically Batman. My brother's wife's dad had a copy of the movie on bootleg and I watched the interrogation scene twice. The Joker really wanted Batman to see things for what they are but Batman is actually as blind as...well, a bat.

He's pretty much what he said during the movie - An agent of Chaos. He does everything he can to cause pain and disruption to the status quo. He's also obviously psychotic and I think deep down extremely angry.

You only hear him get really mad once in the film, during the first video he makes where he's torturing the fake batman. You hear him scream out in very intense rage "LOOK AT ME", and then almost back peddal and try and hide it, like a little bit of his true self came out for a second, and he wanted to keep it back, under control.

In short, he's a bad dude.

That's one thing I kept thinking about...what can really make this Joker tick? Batman said he was garbage and that everyone wasn't as ugly as him, and yet it didn't anger him. What could possibly anger him..if anything?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Very good comments. I have a question to all of you who have posted. I would like a reply if you can.

Do you guys feel that The Joker is a very complicated character?

Yes. A lot of the terms all apply - insane, sociopath, anarchist, death lover, sadistic. What seems so dangerous about him at first is that he does what he does without seeming to want anything; no motivation. But by the time of the ferry scene, you realize there's one thing driving him and it's twisted: he wants everyone to join him and see the world as insane as he does. Like he says in the interrogation - "See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve." That's why he's Batman's opposite, who wants to inspire people to be better than they are.

He's a madman who wants the world to change its views, to corrupt those who are a hope to many.

He was basically trying to open Batman's eyes to show that the world isn't as civilized as it portrays itself, and he was true. It's like that in both the Batman universe and in real life.

I think there may be some sort of truth to what the Joker said.

"The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules."

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Let's start with your opinions of the Joker in the TDK.

How do you view him?

I view him as the prime example of chaos. It doesn't make sense, it isn't nice, and all human beings have it in them.



Who knows? How would anyone know? All we got were stories, not origins. Hell, he may not have even had a father.



No. He's a man that thinks of the world as one giant toy to do whatever he wants with it. The Joker is a force of nature. He's that one character that is so out of sync with everything else, that he does the only thing that keeps him in touch with reality: Violence and Disorder.



Yes.



That's the most rhetorical question ever. Is the Joker evil? Are you serious?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Let's start with your opinions of the Joker in the TDK.

How do you view him?

Is he a victim of an abusive father?

Is he a man who really hates the world?

Is he the Yang (or Ying of Batman) in this film?

Is he evil?

Why so philosophical?

My take...The Joker is simply the extreme and a force that should never be try to touch or try to use. You bargain with the devil...if you catch my drift.

In the film he seemed rather sane, he just wanted to change peoples perceptions and prove that even the mightiest hero can fall.

As you said it was basically making a deal with the devil.

Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
In the film he seemed rather sane

What?

I think the Joker is a deeper character than everyone is making him out to be.

Sure he is the personification of chaos and evil. However I think his main goal in everything he does is to bring others down to his level. To bring out the worst in people is to prove that he is not alone in this world. That was the purpose of his experiment with the ferries, to test the depravity of human nature and to prove that everyone is just like him deep down.

The Joker is a human without a conscience, stripped of all moralities and all he wants is to do is prove that he is not alone.

Originally posted by Gannon
I think the Joker is a deeper character than everyone is making him out to be.

My characterization of him is deep. I just didn't write ten paragraphs on it. He's a character that is indeed chaos incarnate, and to prove his existence wants to show the world that everyone can be as bad as he is.

Originally posted by Toku King
What?

He was quite sane in the film, i mean he had plans and he wanted the mob, he got the mob and corrupted Dent, i don't know he seemed more like a hitman, there were moments where insanity appeared, but compered to his comic version he was a lot more constructive and only really killed people that were important to his plan.

Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
He was quite sane in the film, i mean he had plans and he wanted the mob, he got the mob and corrupted Dent, i don't know he seemed more like a hitman, there were moments where insanity appeared, but compered to his comic version he was a lot more constructive and only really killed people that were important to his plan.

He was insane. He didn't just kill people in necessity. In fact he'd kill just to kill. His entire idea is insane as it is. A lot of what he did is what comic Joker did, tried, or did something similar, and he was insane.

that's your opinion, just to me, he seemed rather sane.

Everyone he killed had a point to his plan, he was always in control as well and he did things for the fun of it.

Why must we use some kind of Dungeons and Dragons classification for characters...?

Originally posted by Almighty Bauer
Why must we use some kind of Dungeons and Dragons classification for characters...?

That he's insane? That's called "reality".

Originally posted by Toku King
That he's insane? That's called "reality".
Erm... no, he isn't real.
But I was looking at the title when I wrote whatever I wrote a few hours ago...

Originally posted by Almighty Bauer
Erm... no, he isn't real.

He's not real, but his psychosis and cases are.

Originally posted by Toku King
He's not real, but his psychosis and cases are.
No. Him not being real includes his brain not being real...

((not sure if anyone has mentioned any of what i'm about to say. i scimmed through the other posts, so sorry if i'm repeating))

the best description i've heard for the joker is he suffers from "super-santity", which causes him to reinvent himself to go with the eb and flow of the chaos around him.
if you look at the joker in TDK, you can see he is perfectly sane, because it takes someone really smart to talk to two-face like he did. But you can also see he has ticks, or things that set him off, like the cop that wouldn't look at him, or when the mob guy called him crazy, and you saw the little twitch as he answered "no...i'm...not" very firmly the second time.
As for his "lack or memory" or mixed stories, a line of the jokers in The Killing Joke sums it all up "...if i'm going to have a past, i want it to be multiple choice."
I think the joker is very complex, though maybe not on purpose origianlly, he has just become that, which i think makes the character MUCH better. I certainly hope no author or movie director ever tries to make a story that completely defines the joker, i don't think they could ever do justice to what we all have in mind on who the joker is and what what his problems are.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Let's start with your opinions of the Joker in the TDK.

How do you view him?

A force of nature, a man who simply thinks in a way so beyond human understanding and logic he gives new meaning to the word 'insane'. A person who lives for killing, burning, and destroying, and finds all those things to be hysterically funny and intensely pleasurable.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Is he a victim of an abusive father?

"If I have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

That's a quote from the Killing Joke, as I'm sure you know. I'm certain the Joker had an incident that made him 'snap', but what was it- truly? I don't think even the Joker himself knows. That being said, a lot of people seem to think that he was simply lying and making it up when he gave his different pasts; but I doubt it. I simply think that he is constantly reinventing his past, and may think of other origins for his scars every time.

I believe it's most plausible that he did get cut up in some form. And then he realized the irony of being forced to wear a smile for the rest of his life, used it to form his identity of 'the Joker', and promptly going insane. That, or maybe he did it to himself after 'realizing' how funny the world is. Who knows?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Is he a man who really hates the world?

No. He simply thinks the world is one big joke, and therefore, there is no logic to living with rules. He doesn't hate it.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Is he the Yang (or Ying of Batman) in this film?

Yes, definetly.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Is he evil?

Duh.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Why so philosophical?

Because he is, aside from being a murderous psycho, also a man out to prove a point. Well, points is more like it. How someone can so casually go insane, for example.

Originally posted by XornonJay
super-santity

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
A force of nature, a man who simply thinks in a way so beyond human understanding and logic he gives new meaning to the word 'insane'. A person who lives for killing, burning, and destroying, and finds all those things to be hysterically funny and intensely pleasurable.



"If I have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

That's a quote from the Killing Joke, as I'm sure you know. I'm certain the Joker had an incident that made him 'snap', but what was it- truly? I don't think even the Joker himself knows. That being said, a lot of people seem to think that he was simply lying and making it up when he gave his different pasts; but I doubt it. I simply think that he is constantly reinventing his past, and may think of other origins for his scars every time.

I believe it's most plausible that he did get cut up in some form. And then he realized the irony of being forced to wear a smile for the rest of his life, used it to form his identity of 'the Joker', and promptly going insane. That, or maybe he did it to himself after 'realizing' how funny the world is. Who knows?



No. He simply thinks the world is one big joke, and therefore, there is no logic to living with rules. He doesn't hate it.



Yes, definetly.



Duh.



Because he is, aside from being a murderous psycho, also a man out to prove a point. Well, points is more like it. How someone can so casually go insane, for example.
Evil and total insanity are, in my opinion, mutually exclusive. Of course, neither evil nor insanity can be quantified, so it's a moot point.

Originally posted by Almighty Bauer
Evil and total insanity are, in my opinion, mutually exclusive. Of course, neither evil nor insanity can be quantified, so it's a moot point.

Except that someone can be both.

Except he didn't appear to truly be insane, just evil.

I think he seemed insane. Anyone who would be laughing as they are falling to their inevitable death IMO has a few screws loose.

Well, the Joker is very much in control of his actions, so can he appropriately be titled 'insane'? Perhaps. He simply sees the world in an entirely different way that normal people do (or are even capable of doing). He's a psychopath, a sociopath, and a demented freak, but truly insane? I don't know. His so-called 'insanity' seems to be a strength, actually.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, the Joker is very much in control of his actions, so can he appropriately be titled 'insane'? Perhaps. He simply sees the world in an entirely different way that normal people do (or are even capable of doing). He's a psychopath, a sociopath, and a demented freak, but truly insane? I don't know. His so-called 'insanity' seems to be a strength, actually.
I think a lot of serial killers are very in control of their actions but still insane to be doing what they are doing

In TDK, he seemed very sane, especially in scenes like the mob meeting scene. I think he's just what others have said: "Super Sane"

Heh.

I actually think that the Joker's insanity is a superpower of a sort. I mean, think of all the advantages it gives him:

-Complete ruthlessness
-Unpredictability. The Joker's plans and thoughts make no logical sense.
-Ability to think in a way normal people are not capable of
-Manic strength and speed, due to adrenaline surges.
-Immunity to mind-control

Y'see, while these aren't 'superpowers' per se, they still give the Joker advantages over a normal human being.

Indeed, and I like how in TDK, TAS, and in "The Batman" he's more of a fighter than in most comic incarnations.

Actually, the whole "JOKA iz a WIMP in fightin'!" delusion gets on my nerves all the time.

I mean, seriously. He regularly gets a few hits in Batman (the world's greatest martial artist) in combat, stuns him with his speed in the Man Who Laughs, for once example, beat the crap out of f*cking Cassandra Cain- an immensely skilled martial artist, defeated Catwoman in physical combat once, fought with Aquaman- a superhuman being- and actually got a few hits in, and, more recently, beat the crap out of Lex Luthor, is called a wimp in H2H?

Oh, and in Joker: The Last Laugh, when fighting Nightwing, the Joker sacrificed an opportunity to shoot Nightwing (and kill him), and instead taunted him mid-combat to kill him. When he actually tried to hit him, the Joker hit him without incredible difficulty.

Though, you are correct that the Joker is often portrayed as a murder with no actual combat skills. So, is the Joker a good fighter? I'd argue that he is a good fighter, but some people can argue that he is a bad fighter, and you can certainly see their point.

And yeah, I loved how TDK showed the Joker as not scared to get into a physical fight with people. The way he owned that cop put a sssssssssmile on my face.

It all depends on the version, but more often than not he's been portrayed as a great fighter, and the reason he was so great in ROTJ was because he had Drake's knowledge of all of Batman & Robin's moves.

Also, when the Joker first stepped on the scene he beat the crap out of Batman nearly all the time. I have a screen of one panel in which he owns Batman.

Joker isn't a full blown fighter, but he's extremely quick, is great with weaponry and tech, and is fairly good at hand to hand.

Well, the Joker's gadgets, crazy speed, manic strength, unbelievable endurance (seriously. When a guy laughs when you beat the shit out of him, it's kind of hard to disable him in any way), skill with conventional weapons, and ingenuity/creativity make him a good fighter. That's my opinion, at least.

And yeah, Da Joker, d'you mind giving me a panel where Joker owns the crap out of Batman?

The Joker's strengths is that he has no rules and he will fight dirty. He's best when he's messing with people's heads but he can hold his own fairly well in a fight, or at least take more punches than most from what I've seen.