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Bob is being targeted for termination by the Senator who has contacted the ICA (international Contract agency), and they have sent there best man to Philidelphia (47), he doesn't know where Swagger is located, but he has all intel on him, a deserted CIA agent has in turn turned over all information they have on 47 over to Swagger the two are now bent of the killing of the other.

They get three days to prepare.

Weapons and equipment: What they have shown in there respect films, (with restrictions Swagger isn't suddenly pulling out M107 and 47 doesn't suddenly have two MP5 on him realistic weaponry they have a chance of getting ore is already with them them)

(Sorry guys I tried to make a scenrio written, as the Moderator likes it but that didn't work out well so if this isn't sufficiant information please ask.)

All I ask is that you post something more than "I'm bored. Pick one" or "Who wins?" You don't have to write an essay.

That is good enough for me.

Are they to square off, or is 47 gonna come after Swagger, who is in hiding?

Is "Swagger in hiding" the new "Batman with prep"?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Are they to square off, or is 47 gonna come after Swagger, who is in hiding?

none and both, 47 is after Swagger and vica versa, they have had 3 days to prepare against each other and have what knowlegde the other part can have about there advesary, Bob for instance knows that 47 has a 100% death rate when concerning his targets, and 47 knows that Bob is a expert sniper

I really dont see this getting past the sniper part, Swagger will probably snipe 47 before 47 can get close to him.

If it becomes a handgun battle, I'd day 47 has the advantage.

Also, if Swagger (or any other trained pro) is targeted for elimination, why would they go after their would be assassins? Why wouldnt they wait for the killers to come to them?

Well Swagger did go after those that tried to kill him.

Also I wouldn't count to much on Swagger's sniping abilities which judging from the movie Hitman can do just as well.

I saw Hitman a while back, I forget, is he shown sniping in the movies? And from how far?

3 kilometers if I remember correctly

got a youtube link?

a link to the entire movie the first part, the shooting begins at 12:09 and we get confirmation of the kills at around 14:35 and it wasn't 3 kilometers it was 4

http://en.cinemawiki.tv/movie/movie_Hitman.html

Hmm......I just noticed you never said where they fight? day or night?

Two scenarios day and night.

I am leaning towards Swagger. I believe his sniper skills and skills with an assault rifle are bettrr, while 47 is more deadly with a handgun. hand to hand? Equal.

Has to disagree with the sniper skills, assault riffel granted since I don't recall having seen 47 use such a weapon in the movie, as for h2h I would give a little nod towards 47 over Swagger based purely on the fact that he defeated three at the same time that was trained the same way as he was, I have no recalling of Swagger doing that in the movie.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Has to disagree with the sniper skills, assault riffel granted since I don't recall having seen 47 use such a weapon in the movie, as for h2h I would give a little nod towards 47 over Swagger based purely on the fact that he defeated three at the same time that was trained the same way as he was, I have no recalling of Swagger doing that in the movie. Swagger did defeat two cops, one of which had a gun at his head. All the while he was unarmed and took them out in less than 30 seconds.

Cops wasn't the last time I checked trained from birth in various forms of combat.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Cops wasn't the last time I checked trained from birth in various forms of combat. Agreed, BUT 47 was trained the same as the guys he fought, he knew how and when they would attack.

Originally posted by Utrigita
3 kilometers if I remember correctly

Oh boy, that leaves Swagger in the dust.

Where does the fight take place anyway, cause that may be a factor for my decision.

47 shot from 1.86 miles away? Yeah, thats real accurate. Even .50 cal's cant shoot that far, I believe.

Because he was trained with the same people that he later fought it doesn't mean that he would per say have a advantage over them.



Yes It can shoot that far

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/M107.html

And again it's a comment made to point out just how good 47 is.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
47 shot from 1.86 miles away? Yeah, thats real accurate. Even .50 cal's cant shoot that far, I believe.

I can't believe you were arguing all this sniper crap, when you clearly don't know all that much about snipers.

So 47 trumps Swagger in the sniping department.

Still depends where the environment is though.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Because he was trained with the same people that he later fought it doesn't mean that he would per say have a advantage over them.



Yes It can shoot that far

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/M107.html

And again it's a comment made to point out just how good 47 is. Was that a .50 cal he used in Hitman?

Does it matter? He had a rifle with over 4km range.

Originally posted by Placidity
Does it matter? He had a rifle with over 4km range. Yes, but what type of rifle?

If I didn't know, would it mean 47 loses?

I would definately guess .50, but I don't have the movie, so I can't confirm.

I did like those pistols he pulled outta the ice machine. Cooler weapons goes to 47.

.45 Ballers I believe they are called.

Also I don't know if it's a M107 he is equiped with more likely it's his customized W2000, but I don't posesses the required knowlegde to say what type of sniper rifle it is.

Likely, if it can shoot that far, the ammo is custom made by a master gunsmith.

Most likely yes, judging from the movie the Assasins that Hitman belong to are equiped only with state of the art equipment.

Honestly, they kinda butchered the movie Shooter. From the book, that is. The book, point of impact, goes into detail on how Bob Lee makes his own ammo and reuses empty cartridges. Cool shit.

I haven't had a chance to read Swaggers books just like I haven't had a chance to read Hitman: Enemy Within which should portray hitman more like he is portrayed in the games, as a silent and deadly advesary.

I never played Hitman, but I did enjoy the movie.

I've actually been re-playing Hitman 2 lately.

Kinda off-topic Utrigita, but is the custom walther w2000 the most accurate sniper in the game?

I usually pick the .50 cal one, but its loud as.

The movie was good, though I don't doubt that you would have enjoyed the movie far more had you played the games before.



I would say that all around the W2000 is the best at accuracy the Sniper you get from the Ninja's is no slough either, they are very similar as for pure powerout put I will go with the M195, as for all around I think I will take the R93, This is mostly on memory I haven't played hitman 2 for some time now, Blood Money my new favorite, still working on getting all guns

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
47 shot from 1.86 miles away? Yeah, thats real accurate. Even .50 cal's cant shoot that far, I believe.

As you say, "it's in the movie", so stop making excuses and accept that some other fictional character is superior in every way including sniping to your fictional hero.

It's rather simple:

Swagger = expert military trained sniper

Agent 47 = trained from birth to be the deadliest of assassins in every manner

Swag-boy loses in every scenario posted by the thread starter 10 out of 10 times. You could make your own scenario were 47 is gimped from the start so Swagger has a chance.

Edit: Here, I'll make an RJ like thread.

Swagger is hiding ontop of an elevated postition, .50 cal that never needs reloading in hand and there are no obstacles to obstruct his hawk-like line of site for miles and miles. Agent 47 comes running backwards towards Swagger from a 2 mile distance, armed with a Slinky and instead of the barcode tattoo on the back of his bald head there is a bullseye target. Who wins?

Have I made a spite thread? If so i'm sorry.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Have I made a spite thread? If so i'm sorry.

No, your thread is fine, you didn't favor one and gimp the other, and both are capable opponents, it was objective in every sense. Kudos.

Originally posted by Robtard
As you say, "it's in the movie", so stop making excuses and accept that some other fictional character is superior in every way including sniping to your fictional hero.

It's rather simple:

Swagger = expert military trained sniper

Agent 47 = trained from birth to be the deadliest of assassins in every manner

Swag-boy loses in every scenario posted by the thread starter 10 out of 10 times. You could make your own scenario were 47 is gimped from the start so Swagger has a chance.

Edit: Here, I'll make an RJ like thread.

Swagger is hiding ontop of an elevated postition. .50 cal that never needs reloading in hand and there are no obstacles to obstruct his hawk-like line of site for miles and miles. Agent 47 comes running backwards towards Swagger from a 2 mile distance and instead of the barcode tattoo on the back of his bald head, there is a bullseye target. Who wins? I love how you made Swagger out to be just a "sniper." Yeah, thats all he can do. He is totally useless without a sniper rifle.

Like I said, depends on what the environment is. If its in the city or any urban setting, 47 would probably win every time.

If it is set it any sort of terrain-based location, such as jungle, artic, or desert, Swagger will have a better chance of winning because he has more experience in that environment.

But since I think its set in Philadelphia (where the archbishop was assasinated), its an environment that gives 47 all the advantage.

In a non urban environment, Swagger owns 47. Swagger is a master at camo, that is SHOWN in the movies. In the city, 47 will likely take Swagger out.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I love how you made Swagger out to be just a "sniper." Yeah, thats all he can do. He is totally useless without a sniper rifle.

I love how your reading comprehension is like that if an 8 year old. I said "expert military sniper", not "just a sniper" and "expert" is giving high praise. Not did I imply that sniping was the only thing he could do.

Originally posted by Robtard
I love how your reading comprehension is like that if an 8 year old. I said "expert military sniper", not "just a sniper" and "expert" is giving high praise. Not did I imply that sniping was the only thing he could do. Hey, say what you mean, dont leave it open for interpretation.

Just because someone is, for example, an "expertly trained" horse rider, it doesnt mean they can go out and win a rodeo, does it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
In a non urban environment, Swagger owns 47. Swagger is a master at camo, that is SHOWN in the movies. In the city, 47 will likely take Swagger out.

You really think some face paint and shrubbery would stop an assassin trained from birth in all forms of stalking and killing from finding you?

My guess, Agent 47 was trained to deal with non-urban enviroments at some point in his 30 years on constant training, how else could he be the worlds best assassin.

Originally posted by Robtard
You really think some face paint and shrubbery would stop an assassin trained from birth in all forms of stalking and killing from finding you?

My guess, Agent 47 was trained to deal with non-urban enviroments at some point in his 30 years on constant training, how else could he be the worlds best assassin. Well too bad that isn't depicted in the movie, innit?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Hey, say what you mean, dont leave it open for interpretation.

Just because someone is, for example, an "expertly trained" horse rider, it doesnt mean they can go out and win a rodeo, does it?

I did.

I would expect that a rodeo champion would be an expert horse rider, if he/she were to win at one of the horse events.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well too bad that isn't depicted in the movie, innit?

Actually, in the intro of the movie, the narrator describes how the children were raised/trained to be the very best of assassins, trained in all weapons and methods of dealing death, they followed the game in that respect. The movie is afterall about an unstoppable assassin; all his feats out class Swagger, including sniping.

Originally posted by Robtard
I did.

I would expect that a rodeo champion would be an expert horse rider, if he/she were to win at one of the horse events. But if someone were an expert at riding horses, that doesnt mean they would be an expert at roping cattle, now does it?

Originally posted by Robtard
Actually, in the intro of the movie, the narrator describes how the children were raised/trained to be the very best of assassins, trained in all weapons and methods of dealing death, they followed the game in that respect. The movie is afterall about an unstoppable assassin; all his feats out class Swagger, including sniping. Too bad 47 is not SHOWN wearing camo and stalking through the woods/jungles/deserts, etc;

He is actually in the beginning of the movie, being showed to have been operating in the desert ore atleast in a urban environment in a desert.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Too bad 47 is not SHOWN wearing camo and stalking through the woods/jungles/deserts, etc;

It doesn't need to be depicted. Off-topic, toward the end of the Matrix trilogy, Neo obviously becomes a sort of god within the Matrix, but it was never shown

In Shooter, Danny Glover says: "He's an expert of counter-intel" Yet we didn't see Swagger take in all the intel need by studying and experiencing everything.

Originally posted by Utrigita
He is actually in the beginning of the movie, being showed to have been operating in the desert ore atleast in a urban environment in a desert. Is he wearing desert camo gear and pursuing someone who is as good at camo and at stalking as Swagger is?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Is he wearing desert camo gear and pursuing someone who is as good at camo and at stalking as Swagger is?

Is Swagger working ever so valiantly to obtain the the knowledge needed to specialize in counter-intel?

Originally posted by Scythe
Is Swagger working ever so valiantly to obtain the the knowledge needed to specialize in counter-intel? No, but he is SHOWN performing counter intel.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Is he wearing desert camo gear and pursuing someone who is as good at camo and at stalking as Swagger is?

He is wearing desert camo gear yes, and has been capable of tracking down a person that the natives wasn't capable of.

Got a youtube clip? You say its at the very beginning?

Yes you can use the link I posted earlier, he hands over a wanted person that the group that lived there wasn't capable of tracking down.

I will in a bit, youtube is giving me problems at the moment.

It isn't exactly Youtube.

I am seeing that I am taking another route, gimmee a little time on this one.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No, but he is SHOWN performing counter intel.

You're funny in your never ending excuses to have the character you idolize win. All Swagger does is take a picture of the front of a car with a camera-phone and they call it "counter intel". If he were really performing counter intel, he would have simply memorized the 7 digit license plate number and not given away what he was doing. Fact.

As I posted and you ignored, the intro basically spells out that 47 is trained to be the very best of assassins and trained it all manners of dealing death, just like the game. Do you think it's logical to just assume that some face-paint and shrubbery would trump that?

Edit: And as noted, every feat Agent 47 performs in the movie out-classes anything Swagger did; most notably what Swagger is best at, sniping. Sniper head-shot from over 4 kilometers to be precise, Swagger doesn't have a chance in any non-biased (aka non-RJ) scenario.

Originally posted by Robtard
You're funny in your never ending excuses to have the character you idolize win. All Swagger does is take a picture of the front of a car with a camera-phone and they call it "counter intel". If he were really performing counter intel, he would have simply memorized the 7 digit license plate number and not given away what he was doing. Fact.

As I posted and you ignored, the intro basically spells out that 47 is trained to be the very best of assassins and trained it all manners of dealing death, just like the game. Do you think it's logical to just assume that some face-paint and shrubbery would trump that?

Edit: And as noted, every feat Agent 47 performs in the movie out-classes anything Swagger did; most notably what Swagger is best at, sniping. Sniper head-shot from over 4 kilometers to be precise, Swagger doesn't have a chance in any non-biased (aka non-RJ) scenario. Sure, why not. Doesnt change the fact that if it is not SHOWN in the movie, it doesn't count. SHOWN, or SAID by another character. Get it? got it? GOOD.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No, but he is SHOWN performing counter intel.

No? Yeah I didn't think so, good job.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Got a youtube clip? You say its at the very beginning?

One is supposed to know the background and material of each contender, why are you asking for youtube clips when you should already know this stuff? I wouldn't go to a Godzilla Vs. Hulk thread not knowing shit about Godzilla...

Originally posted by Scythe
No? Yeah I didn't think so, good job.It is stated he knows counter Intel, more importantly he is SHOWN performing counter intel, on more than one occasion. On the plates, while scouting the cities, when walking into the trap at the cabin. It is painfully obvious.



So I forget one little scene and suddenly I know shit about the movie? I know 47's background and training, I just cant remember the specific scene he is talking about.

If you considered yourself a Godzilla fan, for example, and I ask you how many choppers were pursuing Godzilla through the city, and you couldn't recall the exact number, it doesnt mean you dont know anything about Godzilla, does it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
If you considered yourself a Godzilla fan, for example, and I ask you how many choppers were pursuing Godzilla through the city, and you couldn't recall the exact number, it doesnt mean you dont know anything about Godzilla, does it?

But it'd stop me from looking foolish by asking people when stuff happened in the movie.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Sure, why not. Doesnt change the fact that if it is not SHOWN in the movie, it doesn't count. SHOWN, or SAID by another character. Get it? got it? GOOD.

It's called logical deduction. If Swagger never fired a gun while barefoot in the movie, would it be reasonable to say "Swagger can't fire a gun while barefoot"?

Anyhow, the thread starter said they're actively trying to kill each other, so your favoured scenario of Swagger hiding in the bushes in full cameo hoping to snipe a blundering Agent 47 just wandering into the kill zone, is as typical RJ Vs. thread nonsense as they come.

Originally posted by Robtard
It's called logical deduction. If Swagger never fired a gun while barefoot in the movie, would it be reasonable to say "Swagger can't fire a gun while barefoot"?

Anyhow, the thread starter said they're hunting each other, so your favoured scenario of Swagger hiding in the bushes in full cameo hoping to snipe a blundering Agent 47 is as typical RJ Vs. thread nonsense as they come. Swagger wasnt shown using claymores in Shooter, and I dropped them from the Swagger versus Batman thread. Even though snipers use claymores all the time.

It's logical that 47 can use an M60 rifle, but since he isn't shown using one, it can't be used here.

See? If it's not SHOWN in the movie, it doesn't count. AC was right, it is MUCH easier this way.

Originally posted by Scythe
But it'd stop me from looking foolish by asking people when stuff happened in the movie. What type and size tires does Bumblebee have in Transformers? And what type and size rims?

Odds are, that even though I know for a fact you are a Transformers authority like no other, that you dont know the answers to these questions.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Swagger wasnt shown using claymores in Shooter, and I dropped them from the Swagger versus Batman thread. Even though snipers use claymores all the time.

It's logical that 47 can use an M60 rifle, but since he isn't shown using one, it can't be used here.

See? If it's not SHOWN in the movie, it doesn't count. AC was right, it is MUCH easier this way.

Not arguing that Agent 47 could use something or not, just that some face-paint and shrubbery wouldn't thwart him, big difference. See?

Anyhow, your favored scenario of Swagger getting into a hidden position in a non-urban enviroment and Agent 47 coming bumbling and stumbling into the crosshairs like some bald Gomer Pyle is rediculous.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What type and size tires does Bumblebee have in Transformers? And what type and size rims?

Odds are, that even though I know for a fact you are a Transformers authority like no other, that you dont know the answers to these questions.

Faulty analogy, Scythe is talking about knowing important details about the characrers before you jump in with an opinion of who would win, not trivial nonsense.

A better analogy would be not knowing what type of weapons Bumble Bee possessed.

Originally posted by Robtard
Not arguing that Agent 47 could use something or not, just that some face-paint and shrubbery wouldn't thwart him, big difference. See?

Anyhow, your favored scenario of Swagger getting into a hidden position in a non-urban enviroment and Agent 47 coming bumbling and stumbling into the crosshairs like some bald Gomer Pyle is rediculous. I only said that in a non urban environment Swagger has the advantage, and in an urban one 47 has the advantage.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I only said that in a non urban environment Swagger has the advantage, and in an urban one 47 has the advantage.

Now your backpeddling and sugar-coating, you said:

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
In a non urban environment, Swagger owns 47. Swagger is a master at camo, that is SHOWN in the movies. In the city, 47 will likely take Swagger out.

Which translates to: Swagger wins without a doubt in one scenario and Agent 47 has the advantage in opposite. Very biased.

This is what people often jump on you about, not being objective.

Originally posted by Robtard
Now your backpeddling and sugar-coating, you said:



Which translates to: Swagger wins without a doubt in one scenario and Agent 47 has the advantage in opposite. Very biased.

This is what people often jump on you about, not being objective. Thats what I just said I said. Whats your point?

Swagger has the advantage in the non urban environmet, he wins.

47 has the advantage in the city, he wins.

Where's the confusion?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Thats what I just said I said. Whats your point?

Swagger has the advantage in the non urban environmet, he wins.

47 has the advantage in the city, he wins.

Where's the confusion?

Do you now the different between saying one guy "would own" in a fight and saying one guy "will likely win"?

Let me tell you, the first implies a sure win, the second implies a great chance. One is 100%, the other isn't.

See the bias now?

Originally posted by Robtard
Do you now the different between saying one guy "would own" in a fight and saying one guy "will likely win"?

Let me tell you, the first implies a sure win, the second implies a great chance. One is 100%, the other isn't.

See the bias now? I see now where the confusion is, my fault for not being more detailed.

Swagger has the advantage in the non urban environmet, he wins.

47 has the advantage in the city, he wins.

This is where I stand now.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I see now where the confusion is, my fault for not being more detailed.

Swagger has the advantage in the non urban environmet, he wins.

47 has the advantage in the city, he wins.

This is where I stand now. Fair enough. 47 takes this scenario then.

I tend to agree.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Fair enough. 47 takes this scenario then.

I tend to agree.


This is the thing though:

Codename 47 vs Bob Lee Swagger

Bob is being targeted for termination by the Senator who has contacted the ICA (international Contract agency), and they have sent there best man to Philidelphia (47), he doesn't know where Swagger is located, but he has all intel on him, a deserted CIA agent has in turn turned over all information they have on 47 over to Swagger the two are now bent of the killing of the other.

They get three days to prepare.

Weapons and equipment: What they have shown in there respect films, (with restrictions Swagger isn't suddenly pulling out M107 and 47 doesn't suddenly have two MP5 on him realistic weaponry they have a chance of getting ore is already with them them)

(Sorry guys I tried to make a scenrio written, as the Moderator likes it but that didn't work out well so if this isn't sufficiant information please ask.)

It is never specified where they fight.

Philadelphia?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Philadelphia? he doesn't know where Swagger is located, but he has all intel on him,

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
he doesn't know where Swagger is located, but he has all intel on him,

I took that to mean he doesn't know where in Philadelphia he is located.

But fair enough. We'd need to know that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I took that to mean he doesn't know where in Philadelphia he is located.

But fair enough. We'd need to know that. I'll say this, if Swagger is hiding out in a hotel, for example, and 47 learns this, I'd say Swaggers chances of escaping are minimal.

If he were to make it to the street, his chances increase a small bit. If he gets behind the wheel of a car, well, we have all seen what Swagger can do in a car.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I'll say this, if Swagger is hiding out in a hotel, for example, and 47 learns this, I'd say Swaggers chances of escaping are minimal.

If he were to make it to the street, his chances increase a small bit. If he gets behind the wheel of a car, well, we have all seen what Swagger can do in a car.

47 was hardly behind the wheel of a vehicle, does that mean he doesn't know how to drive?

Originally posted by Scythe
47 was hardly behind the wheel of a vehicle, does that mean he doesn't know how to drive? I never said that, but there is the scene where Bob Lee escapes a horde of FBI and Police units, so we have seen his driving skills.

47 can surely drive, but we don't know how good a driver he is, so we cannot argue that he would catch Swagger IF Swagger made it to a vehicle. Odds are it would never get that far, but you never know.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I never said that, but there is the scene where Bob Lee escapes a horde of FBI and Police units, so we have seen his driving skills.

47 can surely drive, but we don't know how good a driver he is, so we cannot argue that he would catch Swagger IF Swagger made it to a vehicle. Odds are it would never get that far, but you never know.

By your recent argument that Danny Glover said Swagger's an expert at counter intel, you've stated that Swagger must 'holy god' know everything at counter intel. Yet in the beginning sequence of Hitman, it is said that 47 knows EVERYTHING needed to be the perfect assassin, meaning he would know how to kill outside an urban environment, since it applies to ya know...everything...

So judging by your thought-process, it would seem that if 47 never made a U-Turn in the entire movie, he must not know how to make one i the first place. Yet Swagger, who was shown attempting a pathetic excuse of counter-intel, was explained by Danny Glover that he's an expert. Yeah.... what....?

Originally posted by Scythe
By your recent argument that Danny Glover said Swagger's an expert at counter intel, you've stated that Swagger must 'holy god' know everything at counter intel. Yet in the beginning sequence of Hitman, it is said that 47 knows EVERYTHING needed to be the perfect assassin, meaning he would know how to kill outside an urban environment, since it applies to ya know...everything...

So judging by your thought-process, it would seem that if 47 never made a U-Turn in the entire movie, he must not know how to make one i the first place. Yet Swagger, who was shown attempting a pathetic excuse of counter-intel, was explained by Danny Glover that he's an expert. Yeah.... what....? It was Elias Koteas, and I never said he was a god at counter intel, only that he was trained in it.

47 isn't shown driving, so we don't know how good a driver he is.......It's not that hard a concept, is it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
It was Elias Koteas, and I never said he was a god at counter intel, only that he was trained in it.

47 isn't shown driving, so we don't know how good a driver he is.......It's not that hard a concept, is it?

No it's not, but from the vibe of your argument, you make it seem that because in the movie Shooter it is said that he is good at counter intel, he's damn good at intel, yet you negate the facts about 47. Almost making it seem by your argument that since 47 was never seen driven, he must not know how to.

Originally posted by Scythe
No it's not, but from the vibe of your argument, you make it seem that because in the movie Shooter it is said that he is good at counter intel, he's damn good at intel, yet you negate the facts about 47. Almost making it seem by your argument that since 47 was never seen driven, he must not know how to. Sure, if that's the way you wanna interpret it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Sure, if that's the way you wanna interpret it.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, nor did I ask for any sarcasm from you, it's hard to guess what you're thinking since your writing is all over the place. If you have a hard time stating things, then try again, rather than dodging.

Originally posted by Scythe
I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, nor did I ask for any sarcasm from you, it's hard to guess what you're thinking since your writing is all over the place. If you have a hard time stating things, then try again, rather than dodging. I am gonna say it one more time.


If it is shown in the movie, it it valid here.

If it is not shown in the movie, it is not valid here.


Get it?

Yes, it wasn't shown that Swagger knows anything as advanced as coutner-intel.

It isn't shown that 47 is a good assassin in an environment that's not urban, but before the movie starts, it is narrated that he's the best.

Get it?

Originally posted by Scythe
Yes, it wasn't shown that Swagger knows anything as advanced as coutner-intel.

It isn't shown that 47 is a good assassin in an environment that's not urban, but before the movie starts, it is narrated that he's the best.

Get it? Yeah, sure it didnt.

Alright, shows me right for attempting to rationalize a convo.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
It is stated he knows counter Intel, more importantly he is SHOWN performing counter intel, on more than one occasion. On the plates, while scouting the cities, when walking into the trap at the cabin. It is painfully obvious.


Not as painfully obvious as how you don't even know what counter-intel is. Neither does the guy that says it in the movie, because taking a picture of number plates is definately not counter-intel.

So was counter-intel shown by Swagger in the film? No.

Was it mentioned by someone that doesn't even know what counter-intel is? Yes.

End of Story.

RJ, if you want your hero to win so badly, go make a Swagger vs Aunt May topic, at least you won't have to hide your bias behind utter BS.

Originally posted by Placidity
Not as painfully obvious as how you don't even know what counter-intel is. Neither does the guy that says it in the movie, because taking a picture of number plates is definately not counter-intel.

So was counter-intel shown by Swagger in the film? No.

Was it mentioned by someone that doesn't even know what counter-intel is? Yes.

End of Story.

RJ, if you want your hero to win so badly, go make a Swagger vs Aunt May topic, at least you won't have to hide your bias behind utter BS. So Elias Koteas and Danny Glover's characters, a couple of highly trained government operatives, do NOT know what counter intel is?

You said that someone in the movie mentioned it and that they dont know what they are talking about, and after all, THEY are the ones who said it.

Originally posted by Placidity
Not as painfully obvious as how you don't even know what counter-intel is. And as for this, the whole scene where he asks if the SUV has the big engine, getting them to raise the hood, then taking a pic of the plates, that IS counter intel.

He was trying to make them believe he was interested in the engine, when all he wanted was the plates.

They saw through it because they are also trained in counter intel, and they know that he is trained in counter intel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterintelligence

Counterintelligence (CI) refers to efforts made by intelligence organizations to prevent hostile or enemy intelligence organizations from successfully gathering and collecting intelligence against them. Many governments organize counterintelligence agencies separate and distinct from their intelligence collection services for specialized purposes.


Any questions?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
47 isn't shown driving, so we don't know how good a driver he is.......It's not that hard a concept, is it?

I'm beginning to doubt if you have watched the movie because 47 is shown to drive on at least two occasions in the movie.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
he doesn't know where Swagger is located, but he has all intel on him,

47 doesn't know where in Philadelphia Swagger is located that was the reason I gave both three days to locate there opponents, within Philadelphia, if Swagger wasn't in philadelphia there was no reason sending 47 there, to locate him, again my bad should have specified.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I'm beginning to doubt if you have watched the movie because 47 is shown to drive on at least two occasions in the movie. I meant he wasn't shown driving in situations such as Swagger was in. Was he?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yeah, sure it didnt.

Besides having the ability to take a picture of a car's license plate with a camera-phone (which he should have just really memorized and not given away that we was performing some half-assed counter-intel), what does Swagger do in the film that supports him being counter-intel savvy?

Also of note, it was a government car, so not sure what he would have done with the license plate number anyways, it's not like the car would be registered to Danny Glover and he could find his home address, ergo, it was a lame and useless scene.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I am gonna say it one more time.

If it is shown in the movie, it it valid here.

If it is not shown in the movie, it is not valid here.

Get it?

By that logic, then 47 can drive as can Swagger, not sure why you went on about that Swagger would lose 47 in a car.

Originally posted by Robtard
By that logic, then 47 can drive as can Swagger, not sure why you went on about that Swagger would lose 47 in a car. No, I was saying Swagger showed mad driving skills when he escaped all those cop and FBI cruisers.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No, I was saying Swagger showed mad driving skills when he escaped all those cop and FBI cruisers.

And by your use of logic, Swagger was able to drive like that when escaping multiple people, not just one, as it would be the case between 47 and him. Ergo, Swagger can't use "mad driving skills" when escaping 47.

Originally posted by Robtard
And by your use of logic, Swagger was able to drive like that when escaping multiple people, not just one, as it would be the case between 47 and him. Ergo, Swagger can't use "mad driving skills" when escaping 47. Much more difficult, IMO, to escape like thirty or forty cops and FBI cruisers AND an aerial unit than it is to escape one car.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Much more difficult, IMO, to escape like thirty or forty cops and FBI cruisers AND an aerial unit than it is to escape one car.

Playing by your rules, "if it's not in the movie, it doesn't count". Don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot, do you?

47 is the worlds best assassin, yet you argue he'd be a stumped moron if Swagger went into the woods with some face-paint. When logic would dictate that he would have training to kill in any scenario/environment to be the top assassin.

Same logic you're using with Swagger and the car. Funny how deductive logic can be applied to Swagger, but not 47.

Originally posted by Robtard
Playing by your rules, "if it's not in the movie, it doesn't count". Don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot, do you?Dont know where you are going with this.

Swagger would be totally in his element in the woods. He can pretty much render himself invisible to the naked eye.

Thats not what I am doing and you know it. I am merely going on what we have SEEN them do.

Okay, ergo, Swagger doesn't have "mad driving skills" unless he's frantic and escaping from muiltiple FBI agents.

Though I agree that is stupid reasoning, you're a stickler when gimping the person you want to lose; it's only fair you use that same reasoning on Swagger here.

Originally posted by Robtard
Okay, ergo, Swagger doesn't have "mad driving skills" unless he's frantic and escaping from muiltiple FBI agents.

Though I agree that is stupid reasoning, you're a stickler when gimping the person you want to lose; it's only fair you use that same reasoning on Swagger here. I'd wager he'd be quite frantic if he had 47 on his tail haermm

You could argue that 47 is more deadly than Swagger with twin .45's, because he is shown using them, and Swagger isn't. See how that works?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I'd wager he'd be quite frantic if he had 47 on his tail haermm

You could argue that 47 is more deadly than Swagger with twin .45's, because he is shown using them, and Swagger isn't. See how that works?

Just as I'd wager 47 would be able to handle himself in the woods, since he the top assassin and it stands to reason that not every job he gets involves him killing in a hotel. But according to you, you can't apply that kind of logic, unless it's the guy you want to win.

I could, because 47 is shown being a bad-ass with them and his background pretty much states he's the top expert at killing.

Anyhow, we're deciding who'd win in a death match between the top assassin and a marine-sniper. Agent 47 has Swagger beat in every possible sense, even sniping, as shown with his 4+ meter kill.

Originally posted by Robtard
Just as I'd wager 47 would be able to handle himself in the woods, since he the top assassin and it stands to reason that not every job he gets involves him killing in a hotel. But according to you, you can't apply that kind of logic, unless it's the guy you want to win.

I could, because 47 is shown being a bad-ass with them and his background pretty much states he's the top expert at killing.

Anyhow, we're deciding who'd win in a death match between the top assassin and a marine-sniper. Agent 47 has Swagger beat in every possible sense, even sniping, as shown with his 4+ meter kill. You are assuming an awful lot, while I am going on what is shown in the movies. Theres no room for assumption here.

Bringing in what we "think" they can do opens up room for far too many discrepancies.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Bringing in what we "think" they can do opens up room for far too many discrepancies.

Ah, but it's what you excel on. Look at your past failed threads. I don't know how much more conditioning you may need, but in this fight, there's only an urban environment. In this fight, 3 days to prepare is enough for 47 to find a million ways to kill this marine hash-up. He loses. I highly doubt there'll be a car chase, 47 flips his car, and dies. Not to mention that Swagger will turn his car around, drive back and pass 47, while 47 just sits there at the lack of not being able to do a u-turn.

Originally posted by Scythe
Ah, but it's what you excel on. Look at your past failed threads. I don't know how much more conditioning you may need, but in this fight, there's only an urban environment. In this fight, 3 days to prepare is enough for 47 to find a million ways to kill this marine hash-up. He loses. I highly doubt there'll be a car chase, 47 flips his car, and dies. Not to mention that Swagger will turn his car around, drive back and pass 47, while 47 just sits there at the lack of not being able to do a u-turn. I already said it is unlikely to get as far as a car chase, didnt I? And I didnt make this thread, brainiac. Pay attention. please.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You are assuming an awful lot, while I am going on what is shown in the movies. Theres no room for assumption here.

Bringing in what we "think" they can do opens up room for far too many discrepancies.

Oh the hypocrisy... you make a living at assuming what the character you want to see win could do.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I already said it is unlikely to get as far as a car chase, didnt I? And I didnt make this thread, brainiac. Pay attention. please.

I didn't say you started this thread, I said reference your Vs. threads, please try to comprehend sentences and not assume. Greatly appreciated. However, 47 is at an advantage, do you not see this?

Originally posted by Robtard
Oh the hypocrisy... you make a living at assuming what the character you want to see win could do. Actually I make a living in the hotel business. As far as this forum goes, I go by what I SEE the movie character do, I dont assume anymore.

Originally posted by Scythe
I didn't say you started this thread, I said reference your Vs. threads, please try to comprehend sentences and not assume. Greatly appreciated. However, 47 is at an advantage, do you not see this? Bait bait bait.



I said this quite some time ago:

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Thats what I just said I said. Whats your point?

Swagger has the advantage in the non urban environmet, he wins.

47 has the advantage in the city, he wins.

Where's the confusion?


Then the thread starter specified:


Originally posted by Utrigita
47 doesn't know where in Philadelphia Swagger is located that was the reason I gave both three days to locate there opponents, within Philadelphia, if Swagger wasn't in philadelphia there was no reason sending 47 there, to locate him, again my bad should have specified.

Going off what the thread starter said (above), they're hunting each other in Philadelphia. It stands to reason that Swagger isn't going into the forest with camo and a tent then setting up camp to wait for 47 on the hopes that he just happens to stumble into the cross-hairs. Talk about assuming.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Bait bait bait.

I meant no hostility in my post above, should you have gathered any then my apologies. Back on track, judging the environment is urban, would you not say 47 takes this? I'm having trouble gethering who you'de see win this.

My dear lord......look three posts up, please.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Actually I make a living in the hotel business. As far as this forum goes, I go by what I SEE the movie character do, I dont assume anymore.

In a previous Vs. thread, you said you made a living thinking outside the box.

Then why would you assume they'd fight in a non-urban area when the fight is in th 5th largest U.S. city? Granted, they could fight in a park or something, but that's a silly assumption.

Originally posted by Robtard
In a previous Vs. thread, you said you made a living thinking outside the box.

Then why would you assume they'd fight in a non-urban area when the fight is in th 5th largest U.S. city? Granted, they could fight in a park or something, but that's a silly assumption. Part of my job involves that. I have to think on my feet all the time and be creative in my problem resolutions.

Maybe, and if they do, advantage Swagger.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
My dear lord......look three posts up, please.

Okay, good. Then it's safe to say 47 takes this one, good to hear.

Originally posted by Scythe
Okay, good. Then it's safe to say 47 takes this one, good to hear. In a city environment, yes. but Robtard just brought a new element into the mix. Check it out.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Part of my job involves that. I have to think on my feet all the time and be creative in my problem resolutions.

Maybe, and if they do, advantage Swagger.

So you see Swagger painting his face in camo and humping around camo-gear on the off chance they face off in a Philly park? Hahahahahahahahahaaa, funny.

Originally posted by Robtard
So you see Swagger painting his face in camo and humping around camo-gear on the off chance they face off in a Philly park? Hahahahahahahahahaaa, funny. Umm.....Bob Lee doesnt use camo clothing, if you notice in Shooter, outside the opening scenes, his clothes are usually quite bland, and he still manages to stay hidden in several scenes. And a stick of camo paint fits easily into a pocket.

Around around we go, do you really think some face paint is going to stump the top assassin?

This also assumes that once they meet in this park, 47 will stand idly by while Swagger puts on his makeup and goes off to hide in a bush.

-

http://www.chriskalani.com/news/shooter-2007.jpg
Ya, real bland. Last time I checked, bright orange was good cover for hiding in a park setting. Wonder why they issue this color to convicts?

Originally posted by Robtard
Around around we go, do you really think some face paint is going to stump the top assassin?

This also assumes that once they meet in this park, 47 will stand idly by while Swagger puts on his makeup and goes off to hide in a bush. There are endless circumstances that can lead to the park fight.

If they have three days to prepare, Swagger could very well set up shop in the park, have a cache of weapons at the ready, and be in full camo with numerous hides at his disposal.


dude, thats prison grab, try again.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
There are endless circumstances that can lead to the park fight.

If they have three days to prepare, Swagger could very well set up shop in the park, have a cache of weapons at the ready, and be in full camo with numerous hides at his disposal.


dude, thats prison grab, try again.

Yes there are, but Swagger merely painting his face isn't going to do shit, granted he'd have the time to do so once they met.

The thread starter said it's a hunt, meaning they're both actively searching for each other. Not Swagger sets up shop and waits for 47 to come into killing range.

Dude, "it's in the movie".

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes there are, but Swagger merely painting his face isn't going to do shit, granted he'd have the time to do so once they met.

The thread starter said it's a hunt, meaning they're both actively searching for each other. Not Swagger sets up shop and waits for 47 to come into killing range.

Dude, "it's in the movie". Sometimes a hunter waits for his prey to come to him, this is why they make deer blinds and deer stands.

If Bob Lee is in full camo, ghille suit and all, and 47 boldly strolls into the woods looking for him, yes, he is a goner. Swagger will know his best chance stands in his element, and he will likely wait 47 out in the woods.

Swagger would know what 47 is capable of, and, despite public opinion here, Swagger is far more than a redneck with a rifle. He is just as efficient a killer as 47 is, whether you want to admit it or not.

Agent 47 isn't a deer, he's the top assassin.

That assumes that 47 is a moron and doesn't know anything of Swagger and will just enter the woods. Hard to imagine the top assassin falling for this, in fact, it defies logic.

No, Swagger is an expert sniper/soldier. Agent 47 is an assassin trained from birth to be the very best and coincidentally is the best at what he does. See the difference?

Edit: You're also being clearly biased again and gimping the guy you want to see lose. Why would just Swagger know what his opponent is capable of?

Originally posted by Robtard
Agent 47 isn't a deer, he's the top assassin.

That assumes that 47 is a moron and doesn't know anything of Swagger and will just enter the woods. Hard to imagine the top assassin falling for this, in fact, it defies logic.

No, Swagger is an expert sniper/soldier. Agent 47 is an assassin trained from birth to be the very best and coincidentally is the best at what he does. See the difference? Hunting is Hunting, it's only a difference in prey we are talking about here.

If 47 is left with no choice, if he knows Swagger will wait him out, he will have to do something, man. And yes, Swagger WILL outwait him.

So he is trained from birth, big deal, that means he is like a robot, that he is probably as close as one can be to having no conscience. Swagger has been shown killing with a sniper rifle, an assault rifle, a pistol, a knife, a garrote, his bare hands, pipe bombs, with a frigging .22......And he did so just as well as 47 does.

Yea, the deer being a non-reasoning animal, Agent 47 being a calculating assassin.

LoL, you're bias is appalling now. Really, now, why will he have to do something like enter into a known kill zone? Why not wait until Swagger runs out of food? Anyhow, the fight is in Philly, meaning it's urban as Philly is an urban city.

Wrong, in the movie he has a conscience, if you watched it, you would know. Being trained from birth to kill implies that killing is what he excels at, it's also stated he's the best at it. You're clearly wrong and acting like a silly boy now.

A) Agent 47 sniped someone from over four kilometers, did Swagger do this?

B) 47 killed 4 other highly trained assassin's with short-swords, did Swagger do this?

Agent 47 would utterly dominate.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yea, the deer being a non-reasoning animal, Agent 47 being a calculating assassin.

LoL, you're bias is appalling now. Really, now, why will he have to do something like enter into a known kill zone? Why not wait until Swagger runs out of food? Anyhow, the fight is in Philly, meaning it's urban as Philly is an urban city.

Wrong, in the movie he has a conscience, if you watched it, you would know. Being trained from birth to kill implies that killing is what he excels at, it's also stated he's the best at it. You're clerly wrong and acting like a silly boy now.

A) Agent 47 sniped someone from over four meters, did Swagger do this?

B) 47 killed 4 other highly trained assassin's with short-swords, did Swagger do this? Like I said, different prey. Smarter and more calculating, yes, but nonetheless in the woods, 47 would be the prey.

You brought up the park scenario, Swagger can live off of military rations for days on end, you know.

Dude, you clearly haven't seen Shooter, or you did see it and are ignoring that Swagger can kill just as easily AND just as well as 47. It's right there in the movie, scene after scene, Swagger kills as easy as breathing. In a wooded environment 47 would have his ass handed to him by Swagger. Swagger is a sniper, he waits, he has patience out the yazoo. Sooner or later 47 would be forced to make a move, and then he is done.

No, and no. Swagger took out TWO choppers, was 47 shown doing this?

And please stop with the silly boy comments, it makes you look quite petty.

I highly doubt a park is gonna save Swagger from getting killed.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
dude, thats prison grab, try again.

Ahahaha, prison grab, that made me chuckle. Sounds painful.

Originally posted by Scythe
I highly doubt a park is gonna save Swagger from getting killed.



Ahahaha, prison grab, that made me chuckle. Sounds painful.

Being in a wooded environmet, in his element, would greatly escalate his chances, surely you must see this.


Prison GARB, oops.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Being in a wooded environmet, in his element, would greatly escalate his chances, surely you must see this.


Prison GARB, oops.

Who's to say 47 can't snipe him?

Choppers are quite a lot easier to see than a hitman trained in stealth killing.

Originally posted by Scythe
Who's to say 47 can't snipe him? No one. But you gotta see your target before you hit it. Swagger, with his skills of concealment, is far more likely to see 47 before 47 sees him.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Choppers are quite a lot easier to see than a hitman trained in stealth killing. Agreed. Swagger is actually trained in stealth too, and is just as efficient a killer as 47 is. Anyone who has seen both movies can see this.

On a side note, Swagger took both choppers head on, while 47 ran like a ***** when confronted with one.

A person is not a chopper so it's irrelevant.

It's sorta relevant, it shows Bob Lee's tenacity.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
No one. But you gotta see your target before you hit it. Swagger, with his skills of concealment, is far more likely to see 47 before 47 sees him.

At any given point, Swagger would have to expose any bit of him, to aim the rifle. 47 has dealt with stuff like that, he'd snipe him first.

RJ, you need to stop posting in these threads with a notion already in your head that whatever the case, your favourite is definitely going to win. In my mind it's baiting, definitely, obviously it's not in Impediment's, I'm not sure why.

A thread with Bob Lee Swagger in it that sparked nothing but arguments, which you clearly delighted in slowed to a stop, so you started baiting in another thread with Bob Lee Swagger in with the clear intention to re kindle such arguments. You can shout and rave all you want about how this is not you're doing, but that's certainly how it appears.

Originally posted by Scythe
At any given point, Swagger would have to expose any bit of him, to aim the rifle. 47 has dealt with stuff like that, he'd snipe him first. That works both ways, you know.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
RJ, you need to stop making these threads with a notion already in your head that whatever the case, your favourite is definitely going to win. In my mind it's baiting, definitely, obviously it's not in Impediment's, I'm not sure why.

A thread with Bob Lee Swagger in it that sparked nothing but arguments, which you clearly delighted in slowed to a stop, so you started another thread with Bob Lee Swagger in with the clear intention to re kindle such arguments. You can shout and rave all you want about how this is not you're doing, but that's certainly how it appears. I didnt start this thread haermm

This is the part where you blush

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
That works both ways, you know.

Yeah, alot of the points pointed out in this thread could work best ways, but again with the hiding in a concealed spot to snipe. I doubt Swagger has a one track mind where everything's snipe, snipe, snipe, snipe. I'm sure they'd even have a gunfight, and 47 would win. Swagger is toast in all of this. I'm applying the benefit of the doubt and no matter what, I can't see Swagger winning this.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I didnt start this thread haermm

This is the part where you blush

So you didn't. Okay then, that part can be easily changed. You need to stop using such ludicrous lines of logic and debate to bait people into an argument concerning an obvious favourite of yours.

Originally posted by Scythe
Yeah, alot of the points pointed out in this thread could work best ways, but again with the hiding in a concealed spot to snipe. I doubt Swagger has a one track mind where everything's snipe, snipe, snipe, snipe. I'm sure they'd even have a gunfight, and 47 would win. Swagger is toast in all of this. I'm applying the benefit of the doubt and no matter what, I can't see Swagger winning this. Swagger knows his best chances are to snipe 47, so why wouldnt he use that line of attack first?

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
So you didn't. Okay then, that part can be easily changed. You need to stop using such ludicrous lines of logic and debate to bait people into an argument concerning an obvious favourite of yours. I am pitting one combatant's strength against another's, thats all I am doing. You can read all you want into it, but I am entitled to my opinion and that's that.

First you stick your foot in your mouth, then you accuse me of baiting. I am literally laughing my ass off right now. Literally.