Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

==================================================




This thread concerns the arc titled: "Here Comes Tomorrow" 

which took place in New X-Men across four issues: #151 - 154.

The arc officially began in the last two pages of #150. (150 years in the future)



The purpose of this discussion is to finalize debates
that have literally been going on for years,
it will center around Jean Grey, 

but the arc alone forces several disputes about the events that took place withIN,

and even raises controversy concerning its very canonicity.



With MY courteous Opinion!!!


I will present all the relevant scans/info from the arc, 

plus various relevant scans/info from the preceding arc which conflicts with HCT,

in addition, 

I will also bring forth scans/info from Jean Grey's participation
in her following arc as well,
which again, conflicts with the nature of HCT.



Finally, besides On Panel evidence, 

I will also use info from official Handbooks,
and official Marvel sponsored sites,

that relate to HCT directly or in one form or another,

and I will ultimately display what unofficial sources have to say about HCT.



I want to use every source possible that has indulged in HCT,

this way we get a strict but also broad view from all corners.

(basically I don't want to leave one stone unturned)




==================================================




The three main questions that we will inquire about are:



1. Where did "Here Comes Tomorrow" take place, 

was it in 616, was it in an Alternate Future reality,
or was it an imaginary story?


2. What version of Jean Grey was involved in HCT,

was it 616 Jean Grey, 

or was it an Alternate Jean that later became the so-called "White Crown" Phoenix,

or does it even matter since it's an imaginary story?



3. Is Here Comes Tomorrow even canon, to 616, or to Alternate Realities, or at all?



==================================================





Ok, now that I got the introduction out of the way,

here's the WARNING approved by Badabing. (Moderator)



Anyone, no exception including myself, 

decides to enter this thread in order to insult anyone,
gets Reported
no questions asked, insult again,
get Reported again, 


Anyone, tries to post some sanctimonious babble
trying to demean the understanding of another poster, gets Reported

no questions asked, and so on, and so on like stated above.



Anyone, tries to fallaciously claim that I hate Phoenix, 

because I'm respectfully opening a dialogue concerning this arc,

or decides to suggest that someone else hates Phoenix 

because they agree with what they perceive to be valid/logical evidence/sense,

gets Reported
no questions asked, and so on like stated above.

Badabing has also made it official,
said reasons for Reporting will not just be overlooked,
said Posts, that force said Reports, will be DELETED.
This way,
all who are of spite mind
and wish to have their insults or what have you read,
will be sorely disappointed.



Everyone is free to participate and post their own opinions based on the evidence,

everyone is free to post their own evidence,
and formulate an opinion from there,

everyone is free to ask for more material evidence if necessary,
and if applicable,

everyone is encouraged to submit their two cents, 

but please read over the material meticulously, or present your own material, 

and give a reason (if you can) what your opinion is based on.




Those are the rules concerning warnings that pertain to this thread,

the other KMC rules, of course also apply.




==================================================




That's all ... let's get started.

===========================================


First I hope yall don't think I'm placing Phoenix below Universal status,
because I'm not.
Pheonix has always been an absolute Universal power,
this I know and agree with.

There is one fact that can't be escaped,
of all the Universal powers I have studied,
Phoenix is the one that has the most low showings,
and frankly, hardly any high showings at all,
is it because the Phoenix has many inherent weaknesses, besides its great power,
or is it because it's one of the cosmics that deals most with heroes
and thus pis must revolve around it? ... I don't know, but it's a fact nonetheless.

..................................................................................................

Now, onto the debate:

..................................................................................................


From my perspective, ( I have two of them)
based on what I read On Panel and Bios and other sources:

Reality 15104 (HCT) is a possible Future of 616. (No Future is definite in Marvel)
It was always 15104 ... and it was never 616,
just like none of the other possible 616 Futures are not either.


The low down:

Scott decides to leave the X-Men and Emma, ultimately he dies,
and "Here Comes Tomorrow" is created 150 years in the future after his decision.

Jean amputated the Future of Reality 15104
in order to disinfect said Future from Sublime,
the Future was never discarded,
we know this because Jean has it in her hands as soon as she enters the WHR.

Now this act damaged the Future she amputated,
Jean then Repaired This amputated Future withIN the WHR atomically.

Then Reality 15104 (yes, a Universe) itself manifested in her hands,
but, though it was a functioning Universe, it was wounded.

Why?

Because it's Future was still the same (without Sublime though)
that Future being the finality of "Here Comes Tomorrow"
(like Wolverine's future-self and others who died)

So, in order to "Heal" (change) the outcome of Reality 15104,
Jean (withIN the WHR) changed Scott's mind about the X-Men and Emma on 616,
thus, This possible Future (Reality 15104) is altered.

I will submit, I have no idea whether or not 15104 is still in existence,
with happy alternate X-Men running around.

Or, 15104 was completely nullified by the alteration.

There's indications that point in both directions,
but one of the Two, did occur.

This is IMO. .... based on all the facts I've complied.

..................................................................................................


My second perspective imo, gives HCT some substance and reason to have been,
because if we seriously combine Jean's timetabled history according to canon appearances,
HCT, makes no sense at all, which of course, I'll prove with reputable sources.


Everything above still applies, only the so called White Crown Phoenix from HCT,
was possibly never 616 Jean, and was perhaps indeed an alternate Jean Grey,
Reality 15104 Jean Grey to be exact.

That creates a paradox of sorts into the picture,
if it was not 616 Jean,
then why did she travel back in time into 616 before Scott made his decision,
to change his mind in order to alter Reality 15104?

It's an honest and sensible question.

But one answer would be,
this future Jean Grey's reality's (15104) existence depends on Scott's decision,
so it's logical for her to enter the point where Scott makes his decision,
in order to make the changes in Scott's mind which hence alter it's (15104) demise.

This is how many beings from the future have altered their own Alternate Realities,
by going back in time into 616, making a change,
and thus warping their own future Timelines that depend on 616.
I'll be presenting about 6 examples later on.

Another answer would be,
this is 616 Jean after all,
who existed in this alternate future Timeline for the brief period it existed,
she became the "White Crown" Phoenix, (solely withIN the HCT story)
and in order to nullify this alternate Timeline, herself and the entire event all together,
she went back into 616, changed Scott's mind,
therefore ensuring HCT would never come to pass, in any sense of the word,
therefore nullifying everything that had to do with HCT, including herself.
Because remember, if Scott doesn't make that decision,
none of this would have ever happened,
including Jean waking up in this future and having to do what she did.


===========================================



.... Now for the On Panel, official handbook supported reasons/allusions below. .....

The current Marvel Universe Timeline
goes hand in hand with the "Real World's" Timeline.

If it's 2008 in the real World, it's 2008 in the current/Present Marvel Comics Universe.

So any moment before or after the Year 2008, is located in a separate Timeline.


Btw. Concerning Here Comes Tomorrow:

Is 616 mentioned anywhere?

Is the Prime reality mentioned anywhere?

Is Eternity mentioned anywhere?

Did the LT or any Cosmic guardian appear, because of Jean endangering 616?


not at all!!!!!


When 616's entirety is threatened, someone of Cosmic significance pops up,
either LT/Eternity/Roma/Galactus/Watchers, heck a Quasar or Warlock, lol ... or others,
yet, NOT a single soul came through.

IMO!

It's the SAME Universe/Timeline that Phoenix disinfected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline whose Future was disconnected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline that houses a "broken hearted Beast"
an "Emma leaving, X-Men quitting" Cyclops. (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline Jean "symbolically waters with her heart's blood" (15104)

(by going into the Past and changing Scott's mind
therefore nullifying the Divergence that was created by Scott's decision)

Again,
by going into the Past, which is an effortless Feat withIN the WHR (beyond Space/Time)

Betsy (withIN the WHR) connecting to ALL her Alternates with a thought.

Betsy was able to connect with all her Alternate selves,
across Timelines out the ass:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/568364_whre.jpg

Wow, so Betsy can do that on whim,
but the White Crown Phoenix
needs a Universe in her hands to touch ONE individual's mind?

I disagree.

Obviously imo, Phoenix went into Scott's Timeline
(without the physical need of said Timeline ... like Betsy)
mind raped Scott,
and thus Scott's decision altered the Future of Reality 15104.

Anyways ...

TWO Bios confirm this ... Grant Morrison Editors state this ... On Panel it's depicted.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Ok, my reasons!





While Jean was still sleeping in her Egg ...

Reality 15104 was up and running! .

.................................................................................


Reality 15104
definitely started in #150

(Phoenix was still in her incubation Egg at this point)

She had just died one page prior,
when Magneto/Xorn fried her to death
and exploded the actual Phoenix Force itself into Billions of pieces) - Canon!

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538666_HCT1.jpg

"Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104 began in issue#150)

.................................................................................


Here's the On Panel verification:

.................................................................................


Jean dies on page 30 of New-Xmen #150

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538684_hct5.jpg

.................................................................................


Page 31 of New-Xmen #150 - and 150 YEARS have passed (funny)

we are in Reality 15104:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538667_hct2.jpg

.................................................................................


Page 32 of New X-Men #150 - Jean, sleeping like a baby in her EGG!

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538668_hct3.jpg

.................................................................................


Page 01 in New X-Men #151 - starts at 150 Years in the Future (Reality 15104)


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538669_hct4.jpg

..........................................................................................

..........................................................................................


Reality 15104 manifested in Jean's hands.

Jean has no idea what it is, or what to do with it:


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538699_hct1.jpg

Jean:

"Did I have to fix something that was dying? ... WHAT IS IT?"

The Force:

"A badly wounded orphan universe ... Phoenix work."


It was a broken Timeline,
because the effects of Sublime's actions had already taken place.


..................................................................................................


Ok ... so what does that mean? (Jean asks too, with Reality 15104 in her hands)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534470_nxm-154-22.jpg

Jean:

"But ... but WHAT's THAT supposed to mean?"

Jean is told what that means:

Force:

"That Henry's (Beast) heart is broken ...
that Scott succumbs to loneliness and doubt"

Jean:

"Are these words FROM the FUTURE?" ....


Actually it's obviously the explanation that lead to HCT.

..................................................................................................


Henry's frustration lead to him unwittingly absorbing Sublime,

and Scott's loneliness (no Emma) and doubt (leaving the X-Men)

was what literally created "Here Comes Tomorrow"

..................................................................................................


Quentin tells Jean how to make Reality 15104 grow a new Future:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534473_nxm-154-22.jpg

"to REPLACE the one you just cut away" (amputated)

..................................................................................................


Because as we Know it was Reality 15104's Future she cut away:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538701_hct3.jpg

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"




..................................................................................................

oh my sweet jesus...

..................................................................................................


According to some, this is supposed to be 616, before Jean changed Scott's mind,
that lead to the alteration of this Reality, supposing it's the 616 Universe.

Well I believe I already know it isn't, but let's entertain the thought.


Like how, Quentin refers to This Reality as if it were insignificant:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534475_nxm-154-22.jpg

"If it was me, I'd just let it die"


Hmm, I'll just let the Prime Reality ... (616) ... (foundation of all Creation) ... die.


I can't see that as a possibility at all.

..................................................................................................


Yet, in reality it's still the SAME Reality that was always in her hands since,

"Did I have to fix something that was dying? ... WHAT IS IT?"

Now Jean helps it grow a "New Future" like Quentin said,
to "REPLACE" the one she cut away, like Quentin said word for word.

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534476_nxm-154-22.jpg


She mind rapes Scott on 616 from withIN the WHR, (beyond space & time)
and as yall saw,
even Betsy can connect with her Alternates across TimelineS with a thought,
withOUT the need to manifest said Realities they reside in.

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538780_hct1.jpg

..................................................................................................


Surely this Jean didn't have to manipulate an entire Reality (616 or 15104)
to reach a single individual's mind,
especially when Betsy withIN the WHR, who's NO Phoenix,
can tap all her Alternates with a thought,
I'm sure Betsy may not be able to mind rape them like Phoenix either,
but Betsy is NO Phoenix though either.

Anyway!

..................................................................................................


And what does Jean do?

What did she do when she said, "Live Scott?"

Jean touched Scott's Past-Self from withIN the WHR,
changed Scott's mind about his life, Emma & the X-Men,
and then Scott's decision Alters Reality 15104.

..................................................................................................


According to Grant Morrison's Editors of the arc:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538781_hct2.jpg

(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)

..................................................................................................


On Panel verification:


In 616, Scott walks away from Emma & the X-Men: (HCT - Reality 15104 is created)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538782_hct3.jpg

..................................................................................................


In 616, Jean changes Scott's mind so that Reality 15104 will not be created:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534476_nxm-154-22.jpg

..................................................................................................


Scott stays with Emma & the X-Men:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538783_hct4.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538784_hct5.jpg

..................................................................................................


Notice the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio literally states ...

... IT WAS Scott's decision that Altered Reality 15104 ...

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538836_hct1.jpg

"Letting go of Cyclops and willing him to live ...

In the modern era of Earth-616 ...

Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the X Institute ...

unknowingly ensuring that at least One apocalyptic Future ...

would Not come to fruition" ...


.................................................................................


And cats got her manipulating the atoms of 616 ...

What?

To change Scott's mind? ... I disagree.


Grant Morrison Editor's themselves told us what happened EXACTLY!!!!

.................................................................................


Again ... According to the Editors:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538781_hct2.jpg

"It was Scott's decision to walk away from Emma
that set the apocalyptic events of 'Here Comes Tomorrow' in motion
(Scott inadvertantly Created Reality 15104 withy a decision)

and Jean made sure that Future would never take place"

HOW WILL Jean Do This?

(what I've always said)

"By making him stay with Emma instead" ....


.................................................................................

.................................................................................


Also,
I just noticed something that continues to cement my opinion as a probable fact!

Notice this yall:

.................................................................................


We know ... Jean damaged Reality 15104's Future by amputating said Future right:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538701_hct3.jpg

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed/B] the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"

.................................................................................


Jean did this in order to disinfect the Future of Sublime right:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538859_hct1.jpg

"She then extracted Sublime's essence from the Beast's body,
disinfecting the entire Future Reality" (15104)

.................................................................................


As you continue to read this, we SEE the SAME Future Reality Jean disinfected,
is the SAME Future Reality she repaired atomically,
which is the Future of Reality 15104 which this Jean healed,
by going to the Past and forcing Scott to change his mind. (As I presented - above postS)


It never changes from 15104 to 616 ... that's a misinterpretation imo.

Yall CAN READ it for yourselves right there.

.................................................................................


Reality 15104's Future gets "amputated/disinfected" and "damaged"

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538860_hct2.jpg

.................................................................................


Reality 15104's Future gets Repaired atomically withIN the WHR (Hospital for Timelines)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538861_hct3.jpg

"Hospital White Hot"


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538867_hct.jpg

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once ian't as easy as it sounds,

not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"

.................................................................................


Now Reality 15104 itself appears on the scene:

(and it's the SAME Reality to the very end in her hand) ... I NEVER saw a switch!!!!

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538699_hct1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538862_hct4.jpg


The ONLY Reality that was "disinfected" ...

(by amputating it's Future)

.................................................................................


The ONLY Reality Jean heals "symbolically" (like the Official Bio states)

(by reaching into the Past and changing Scott's mind) ... like Morrison corroborates.


.................................................................................


As we can see,

Jean never discarded the Future, she only repaired it atomically,
Reality 15104 was still the same possible "horrific Future" even after it's Future "Repair"
but by Scott changing his mind,
Reality 15104 either continues a separate existence from the one stained with Sublime,
or simply ceases to exist,
since it was Scott's decision in the first place that literally Created it.

.................................................................................


Imagine the Prime Reality, foundation of the Omniverse, core of the Multiverse,
as some cheesy "orphan universe" stranded from the Multiverse.
That's crazy yall, and basically impossible.

Or better yet,
imagine the Prime Reality just being left to DIE, like Quentin suggested doing.

.........................................................................................


I agree that Reality 15104 (HCT) is a "possible future" of 616,
like the INFINITE number of "possible" Futures in Marvel:

.........................................................................................


.........................................................................................


To name a few ...

2099,
Bishop (Earth-1191)
Cable (Earth 4935)
Kang (Earth-6311)
GOTG-Korvac (Earth-691)
Stryfe (Earth-4935)
Ahab-Nimrod-Marvel Girl (Earth-811)
Holocaust-X-Man (Earth 295)

.........................................................................................


Meh, this arc takes place in a 616 "possible Future" in the year 3099:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534494_3099yd1.th.jpg

That's FAR beyond Scott's 2154 from Reality 15104.

(so which is the true, direct Future? .... Yea I know, take your pick.

Or better yet,
how did the HCT Future over-ride this one which is even further down the line?

Is Grant Morrison special?

.........................................................................................


But seriously what are we ultimately left with ...

.........................................................................................

Concerning this arc,
it always dealt with Reality 15104 from the very beginning.

.........................................................................................

My On Panel, Bio corroborated, Grant Morrison confirmed Proof is clear.

It was Reality/Timeline 15104 (150 years in the Future) all along:

It's the SAME Universe/Timeline that Phoenix disinfected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline whose Future was disconnected (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline whose Future was repaired atomically (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline that houses a "broken hearted Beast"
an "Emma leaving, X-Men quitting" dead Cyclops. (15104)
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline - a wounded orphan because of "Here Comes Tomorrow"
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline Jean "symbolically waters with her heart's blood" (15104)
(by reaching into the Past and changing Scott's mind)

Finally,
it's the SAME Universe/Timeline that was altered (15104)
by Scott changing his mind, in it's pre-diverged state.

.........................................................................................

There was No one time traveling in HCT,
this is why the story is situated in an Alternate Future Timeline.

This is the thing,
if a story begins in a separate point in Time (say the Future)
said story is located in a separate Timeline automatically that resembles the original.

Time Traveling is different,
Time Traveling into the Past, and then trying to change said Past,
creates a separate Timeline that branches off from the original Timeline.

But again,
a story that begins in the Future, like so many in Marvel,
is located in a separate Timeline from the get go.

.........................................................................................


There's no assurance that 616 would ever become 15104.

For there's a slew of Realities taking place Far beyond 150 years as we speak,
all these Realities are "Possible Future Timelines"

.........................................................................................


========= LIKE THIS ONE YALL =============



Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534901_futurejm5.th.jpg

"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...

The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"


.........................................................................................


We'll never know until the time comes,
this is why these Timelines are enclosed in their own Reality apart from the 616 Universe.


Jean simply went into the Past,
which is easily accomplished withIN the WHR (outside of Space/Time)

Jean then mind rapes Scott,
and Scott's decision alters the Future of Reality 15104.

The power was ALL in Scott's decision.

.............................................................................


This is what Morrison thought of that Reality, through the eyes of Quintin:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534475_nxm-154-22.jpg

"If it was me, I'd just let it die"

.............................................................................


If that was 616,
what Quintin is daring to state is:

"if it was me, I'd just let ALL of Marvel die" ... dontgetit

.............................................................................

WHY?

.............................................................................


616 dies, everything dies:


.....................................................................................................


Uatu and the Watcher realized
that nanoseconds after the 616 Reality dies,
the Omniverse will die:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7572/96351941pf7.th.jpg

"After my last report however, we were forced to reinspect our fundamental principles.

We concluded that the destruction of This Universe,
while still bounded by the speed of light,
would occur within an expanding simultaneity, which would,
paratemporally, have begun immediately following the initial
nanoseconds of This Universe.

And then it would Expand outward from This Universe ...
we call it 616 ... to engulf All Others ... "


..................................................................................


Dr Stange is confused with the Uatu's explanation,
so Uatu tells him in plain engilsh the fact concerning the significance
of the 616 Reality:

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/3118/78090319qu9.th.jpg

Dr Strange says,

"I do not understand ... please explain more simply"


Uatu explains more simply,

"If your World Dies now, Stephen, it will take Everything with it.

Not only This Universe (616) but All the Other UniverseS as well.

Everything there is, will End.

Or rather put it even more simply, Everything will never have been"

..................................................................................

Meh, the bottomline is,
if it's a point in Time taking place in the Future,
then it's another Timeline. (simple as that)

Simple physics tell us that two separate points in Time,
cannot occupy the same space. (Marvel follows this fact)

This is why Here Comes Tomorrow sets off in the final pages of New X-Men #150:

"Here Comes Tomorrow" (Reality 15104 began in issue#150)


Yall seen it enough times.

.........................................................................................


Or I can pose this question:

Where is/was the Present-day (year 2004 at the time) 616 Universe,
while Here Comes Tomorrow was taking place 150 years later?

Surely you can't be suggesting,
that the 616 Timeline was existing simultaneously in the Present and Future.

I mean, that's the whole point of Timelines,
to separate points in Time.

.........................................................................................


Either you're in the Present (current 616 Timeline)
or you're in the Past/Future (Other Timelines)

Like GOTG for instance,
they reside in Reality 691 (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)

Why is the Future or Past of 616 located in separate Timeline? (good question)

Because TWO separate points in Time can NOT occupy the same space.
(simple answer with simple physics)


Notice the term ... "Time ... line"
(a designation in a line representing separate points in Time)


150 Years into the Future of 616 is, well ... 150 years beyond the Present,
which is exactly why,
the instant Morrison decided to place his story in the Future,
he was forced to locate the designation of said story in a separate Timeline.

Hence, Reality 15104!


.........................................................................................


In Fact, every What if Universe
is created in the same exact fashion as the Future Reality of Here Comes Tomorrow (15104)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534590_Uatu01.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534591_Uatu02.jpg

As we can see, a single being or two,
can inadvertently CREATE an entire separate Universe,
with a simple decision, just like Scott in Here Comes Tomorrow.

.........................................................................................


In fact, according to Quasar & Uatu,
ALL these "Diverged Realities" like Here Comes Tomorrow,
are not even real Universes,
in fact, they are literally "might have beens"
that at best,
shed some light on why things are the way they are in the Real Universe. (616)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534592_Uatu1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534593_Uatu2.jpg

.........................................................................................

.........................................................................................


This explains WHY Here Comes Tomorrow
has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Phoenix Force bio that's canon to 616,
or 616 Jean Grey Phoenix in her 2008 Bio
... or any bio for that matter concerning 616.

In fact, HCT is completely ignored! .. so is this "White Crown" title.

.........................................................................................


Here in the actual Phoenix Force's bio of 2005

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543034_hct2005.jpg


Xorn shattering the embodiment of the Phoenix Force is recognized ... LOL!

It's also recognized in the 2008 bio!

........................................................................................


Phoenix - Jean Grey - 2008 bio:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534708_Jean_2008.jpg

1. "Jean was killed (by Xorneto)
by a lethal EMP that shattered the PF into billions of pieces."

2. "While incubating in the WHR,
the Force was later ripped back to reality by a Shiar device,
that forcibly reconstituted it"

3. "The Force fell to Earth .. it searched fro Jean and, finding her dead"


.........................................................................................


Finding her DEAD! ... Huh? ...

I thought Jean was manipulating 616 in Here Comes Tomorrow,
was 616 Jean even manipulating 15104?
I thought Jean was at-least alive during Here Comes Tomorrow.

Can anyone say ... contradiction!

.........................................................................................


On Panel verification:

.........................................................................................


(New X-Men #150) ... right before it transitions in What If world.


1:


616 Jean
getting murdered by an Electric Magnetic Pulse,
and the Force itself getting blown into Billions of pieces by said EMP:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534712_jean_dies1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534714_jean_dies2.jpg




(Endsong #1)


The embodiment of the Phoenix Force,
recognized it's been blown into Billions of pieces by an EMP:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534757_jean_dies.jpg

.........................................................................................


(Endsong #1)


2:


Shiar device did in fact rip it back to reality, and forced it's reconstitution:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534715_jean_dies3.jpg

.........................................................................................


(Endsong #1)


3:


Jean was still in her grave, DEAD as a door nail, from the EMP
the Force was still incubating healing from the EMP
yet somehow between the EMP and Endsong Jean was manipulating 616 ... LOL!!!
actually, never happened.

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534716_jean_dies_4.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534750_jean_dies_5.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534752_jean_dies_6.jpg

........................................................................................


Let's entertain the thought that 616 Jean/Phoenix was canon to HCT.

By entertaining the thought that Jean/Phoenix became this "White Crown" person.

What was 616 Jean doing in a "Phoenix Egg" on the Moon 150 years in the Future,
when prior to that,
she had MERGED with the PF,
and was supposed to be in the White Hot Room finding her pieces?

........................................................................................


(Phoenix Force bio - official Marvel Handbook - X-Men - 2005 excerpt)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543040_hct3.jpg

"The Force ... Jean ... merged fully,
returning to the WHR, the Force set out to find its other pieces"


........................................................................................


(Jean Grey bio - official Marvel Handbook - Mutant X Files - 2008)


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543041_hct2.jpg

"The Force it's prime host ... merged fully with Jean,
Jean & the Force returned to the WHR"


........................................................................................


On Panel verification:


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543079_endsong2.jpg

"Afterwards, in the White Hot Room ... when all our pieces are back together"


........................................................................................


Indeed, ultimately in Endsong,
Jean merged with the Force returns to the WHR to find their pieces:


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543080_endsong4.jpg

........................................................................................


Next time we see Jean On Panel is during,
"What If - X-Men - Rise and Fall of the Shi'Ar Empire."

Guess what,
Jean is the embodiment of the Phoenix Force,
just like the story ended in Endsong:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543106_endsong6.jpg


........................................................................................


So .. with that PROVEN!!!!!


What is Jean Grey,
NOT merged with the PF,
doing in an Egg, 150 years in the Future?

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538668_hct3.jpg

dontgetit

........................................................................................


Logical explanation?


No mention of any White Crown Phoenix in ANY of Phoenix's bios,
no mention of Here Comes Tomorrow EVER taking place in 616 Jean's history,
and on panel the contradictions are overwhelming if it had been 616 Jean.

So, like Here Comes Tomorrow's Jean's bio states,
that Jean Grey was Reality 115104 Phoenix.


........................................................................................


Here Comes Tomorrow?

... HCT has nothing do to with 616 Jean,
616 Jean was in a grave, DEAD!
HCT has nothing to do with the Phoenix Force of the 616 Universe,
the 616 Phoenix Force was still healing (incubating in fact) in the WHR,
which means it was completely in-affective.


........................................................................................

........................................................................................


One more thing, cause I wanna cover all corners and possibilities,
and show that the above contradictions are the tip of the iceberg.

........................................................................................


Endsong is the following arc,
for 616 Jean Grey's continuity proceeding the "Planet X" arc,
where she was killed by Xorn.

At the end of Endsong, after Jean merges with the Phoenix Force,
Jean appears in her White suit:

(150 Years prior to HCT)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555751_hct5.jpg

........................................................................................


How then again, after Jean appears 150 years supposedly AFTER this merger,
does Phoenix appear in another suit in HCT?



Here it is on fire in HCT:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555752_hct2.jpg




Here it is without the flames in HCT:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555753_hct3.jpg




Yet strangely enough,
later on in the HCT arc, when this Jean becomes the White Crown
Jean appears with the same White suit:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555754_hct4.jpg


hum

........................................................................................


One final void to approach.

........................................................................................


In some thread, this scan was used to canonize HCT by connecting it to Endsong:


(this is from HCT)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555756_HCT1.jpg

"The Termid species had an inbuilt genetic obsolescence"

........................................................................................


(this is from Endsong)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555757_endsong3.jpg

"Litttle bug people ... a built-in obsolescence"

Hmm ... Seems right, but the poster forgot something,
that Jean clearly points out the number of genetic obsolescences"
she killed,
namely,
"Billions and Billions"

........................................................................................


(this is from the SAME arc: Endsong)


A Shiar Commander says:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555758_endsong1.jpg

"Phoenix ... comes to purify the Universe ....burning away what doesn't work,
My (family) died with FIVE BILLION others when Phoenix ate D'Bary's Star,
if you want to tell me They were a Genetic Obsolescence ...
that Phoenix was designed to correct? ...

........................................................................................


hm ... No comment, yall decide.

===================================


Here's the definition of an Alternate Future:


===================================



...................................................................................


According the official Marvel Handbooks Update - 2007:


"Alternate Future"

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542949_hct1.jpg

"One of the possible future realities deriving from the present reality,
though a specific sequence of events"


...................................................................................

...................................................................................


According to Marvel.com:


"Alternate Future"

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Glossary:A

One of the possible future realities deriving from the present reality
through a specific sequence of events.
One cannot tell which alternate future will become one's present reality
until the point of divergence has passed.
At that point,
one's reality diverges into more than one,
and versions of one's self will exist in each resulting alternate future.
Hence,
one's divergent self will experience one of the alternate futures as their present reality,
while another of his divergent selves will experience a different alternate future as theirs.


...................................................................................

...................................................................................


Bottom line:

When Scott changed his mind,
that "Possible" Future (Reality 15104) was nulled/altered.

Nothing more imo..

15104 is just ONE of Countless possible Futures of 616,
nothing more imo.

This is why the BIO clearly states,

"ensuring that At least ONE apocalyptic Future would not come to fruition"

...................................................................................


Every "What if" (which is what "Here Comes Tomorrow" is, basically)
as in "What if Scott left the X-Men and Emma"
can be altered/nulled in the SAME manner.

Go back into 616's Past before the divergence,
and stop whatever occured that created said divergence,
but the "Future" never had to come, because it was happening already 150 years later,
while the Present Reality is happening now, in this continuum called 616.

I mean think about it,
what everything else that's happening? Like 20 years from now, or 52 years from now,
or 1000 years from now, like in that 2099 arc, when events are taking place like 1000 years AFTER HCT's year 2154 setting,
so that Future set 1000 years later and STILL taking place,
was nulled then re-created to accommodate the year 2154 to be taken over by HCT?
And ALL the other stories, involving 616's supposed "Future" between and after HCT?

Now yall see why there is NO 616 Future,
it's just possible Futures, the Future will only be known when it comes.

...................................................................................


Quite simple really.

If yall,
wish to believe "Here Comes Tomorrow"
outweighs ALL the OTHER "possible" FutureS, whatever.


But Marvel has been creating stories set in 616's Future for over 25 years,
and honestly, and no offense to anyone (sincerely)
but to suggest that This particular story is the end all and be all of 616 FutureS,
is in all honesty incorrect imo.

...................................................................................

...................................................................................


Any who,

here are several FUTURES that are direct products of 616.

Yea, as in actual "FutureS" of 616,

yes, as in,
if you travel back in time from these Realities, you end up in 616.

Furthermore,
most of these Realities I'll be presenting
have been manipulated and/or altered
by affecting the MODERN Age of 616 (yes ... as in the Present)

Just like the events of Reality 15104 and Jean.


First off ...

+++ "Here Comes Tomorrow" is just ANOTHER Alternate Reality: +++

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542893_1.jpg


(does anyone see anything special/distinguishing next to the title? ... Me neither)


...................................................................................

Is it still a debate if you're just talking to yourself?

.....................................................................................................................



======== Days of Future Past - Earth - 811 (a Future of 616) =======


(Rachel is from the Future ... and came to 616)

Kate/Rachel/PhoenixForce going back and forth in Time (from 616 to the Future)

They literally altered the Future, by their actions in 616:


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542900_1.jpg

"The Force followed Rachel BACK to Her TIME (the Future)
the Force possessed Rachel,
and used her power to SEND her BACK to the Earth-616 of the Past,
Ahab, learned of Rachel's TIME TRAVEL and sought to locate her,
Kate/Ahab merged and became Widget,
while Ahab set about preventing any FURTHER REWRITING of what was, for him HISTORY"

"Soon after,
adult Franklin from Rachel's TIME appeared in the MODERN ERA (Present) of Earth-616"


.....................................................................................................................



.....................................................................................................................



======= Earth - 8410 (the Year 2020 of 616) another Future =======


The Iron-Man of the this Future, travels BACK in TIME (to 616)

to change events in his Future:


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542901_2.jpg

"Arno used a Time Machine to seek a retina scan of Saunders' younger self,
ARRIVING in the MODERN ERA of Earth-616,
he only succeeded in scarring the YOUNG Earth-616 Saunders"


.....................................................................................................................

.....................................................................................................................



==== Earth - 928 (the Year 2099 of the 616) another Future ====


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542902_3.jpg

"2099's Spider-Man twice encountered the heroes of Earth-616's MODERN AGE,
616's Fujikawa & 2099's Stark-Fujikawa opened temporal rifts,
sending Peter Parker forward into 2099
and Miguel O'Hara BACK nearly 100 YEARS into the PAST"

.....................................................................................................................






.....................................................................................................................



======== Earth - 4935 (the Year 3806 of 616) ========


This Future (in it's entirety) is ALTERED from again,

the MODERN ERA of 616 (Present)


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542903_4.jpg

"Christmas Day in 3806 Canaanites consolidate control,
Stryfe fled to Earth-616's MODERN ERA, (Present)
Tyler was captured by the Canaanites and ... was SENT to the PAST as well"


To the WHAT? ... TO THE PAST!!! (616's Modern Era)


"Nathan ALSO went BACK in Time,
hoping to PREVENT Apocalypse's rule from ever occurring,
ARRIVING Years BEFORE His Birth, he took the name Cable,
Ultimately, Cable destroyed Apocalypse in the PRESENT,
DIVERGING His FUTURE from Earth-616"

.................................................................................................................


Hmm ...
Isn't that exactly what Jean did?
(change A Future by affecting Scott on 616?) ...

................................................................................................................

...............................................................................................................



======= Earth-691 (the 31st Century of 616) =======


616 Heroes Time Travel to "the" FUTURE (the Year 3014)

Guardians of the Galaxy Time Travel BACK in Time to Present (616)


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542904_5.jpg

"In 3014, Tarin was accidentally SENT BACK to Earth-616's MODERN ERA,
CA/Thing/Sharon Carter accompanied Tarin BACK to her Time,
where they teamed with the Guardians to liberate NYC from the Badoon ...
learning that the Badoon
had staged a failed invasion of Earth in the HEROIC AGE (616)
the Guardians ...
VIA TIME TRAVEL, visited Earth-616's Modern Era, meeting that era's YOUNG Vance"


+++++++ Wow, look at that

Vance is literally Young in 616, signifying the direct link between Time periods,
obviously, the GOTG's 31st Century is a direct FUTURE of 616,
but This Future is labeled 691, just like Here Comes Tomorrow" is labeled 15104,
just like ALL "possible" FutureS of 616,
are labeled something other than 616. +++++++

"After erasing young Vance's knowledge of the Guardians and their period,
the Guardians returned to the 31st-Century Earth-691"


................................................................................................................


I guess (actually I knew) this was accurate:


Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542946_futurejm5.jpg

"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...

The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"


.................................................................................................................

.................................................................................................................



A guess I'll throw in this On Panel proof
to give the above evidence more substance.


Here's the FF traveling to the Future,
what's amazing is, even before they reach the Future,
already there's HUNDREDS of other Diverged FFs mirroring their actions:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555708_futuretimelines3.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555709_futuretimelines4.jpg

.................................................................................................................


BTW. After they did reach said Future,
the Writer first points out that this is another Dimension,
the Dr Strange of that Future, who has risen to the position of the Ancient One there,
clearly differentiates this Reality as another Dimension:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555710_futuretimelines5.jpg

.................................................................................................................


This is why I've told yall,
there's an infinite amount of Future Timelines,
because every action that takes place in 616,
is constantly Diverging other selves of the decision maker into other UniverseS.

.................................................................................................................


It's exactly the reason when a fan asked the Editor's of 2099,
if placing the REAL FF in this Future Timeline,
wouldn't cause a Continuity disaster for the FF on 616 he was replied with ...
actaually, read for yourselves:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555717_futuretimelines1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/555718_futuretimelines2.jpg

===============================================


All the Sources that state Here Comes Tomorrow took place an Alternate Future:

NOT a single source states it was first 616, and then became 15104, NOT one!


===============================================


First .... I'll post the Handbooks:


===============================================



.............................................................................................................


(Here Comes Tomorrow bio - 2005 - Alternate Universes)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538666_HCT1.jpg

"Here Comes Tomorrow" ... Core Continuum Designation: Earth-15104

First appearance: New X-Men #150


(bare in mind, Jean amputated this Timeline's future in NX-M #154)


.............................................................................................................


(Mkraan Crystal bio - 2007 - Official Marvel Handbook Update)


http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/538701_hct3.jpg

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"


.............................................................................................................

===============================================


Second .... I'll post the officially sponsored Marvel Comic sites:


===============================================



.............................................................................................................


(Marvel.com)

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ_Update_1


Scroll down to - (Mkraan Crystal) - near the center of the page:


"Phoenix severed Reality-15104 from rest of multiverse (New X-Men #154, 2004)"


.............................................................................................................


(Marvunapp)

http://www.marvunapp.com/master/earthfl.htm


Scroll down to - (Earth-Here Comes Tomorrow) - center of the page:


"150 years in the future, Diverged WHEN Scott LEFT the Xavier Institute,
Phoenix/Jean altered time to put Scott and Emma together
and restart the school to prevent this reality-diverged. X-Men II#154

Earth-15104 - X-Men II#150 ... 150-154"


.............................................................................................................

===============================================


Third .... I'll post what the Editor's said about the Here Comes Tomorrow Timeline:


===============================================



.......................................................................................................


Evidently, according to the Editor's of this arc, HCT is just another Timeline,
insignificant apparently from their reply to a question:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/537991_timelines3.jpg


.......................................................................................................


During Here Comes Tomorrow,
in the questionnaires to the Writers page,
an individual asks in his 3rd question:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/537970_timeline1.jpg

"Are there any more Proud People" ... Those are characters from the arc.


.......................................................................................................


Look at the answer to his 3rd question:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/537971_timeline2.jpg

"Ditto for the Proud People,
though they may be now only a glimmer in the Phoenix's eye
along with the rest of this Timeline."


.......................................................................................................

Originally posted by Scoobless
Is it still a debate if you're just talking to yourself?



who knows?

===============================================


Fourth ... I'll post the un-official sites that define Comic book stories:


===============================================



.............................................................................................................


(MarvelDataBase)

http://en.marveldatabase.com/Earth-15104


"Earth-15104 - First appearance - New X-Men #150


(bare in mind, Jean amputated this Timeline's future in NX-M #154)


"Divergent timeline"


.............................................................................................................


(MarvelDataBase)

http://en.marveldatabase.com/Category:Earth-15104/Appearances


"Earth-15104/Appearances"


New X-Men - vol 1 - 151 - 154

(they left out #150 ... cause Reality 15104 appears only in the last two pages)


.............................................................................................................


(MarvelDataBase)

http://en.marveldatabase.com/Jean_Grey_%28Earth-15104%29


"Aliases: Phoenix"

"Universe: Earth-15104"

"Appearances: Here Comes Tomorrow"


............................................................................................................


(MarvelDataBase)

http://en.marveldatabase.com/Henry_McCoy#Henry_McCoy_.28Earth-15104.29


Henry McCoy (Earth-15104)

"Phoenix converge and absorbed the entire alternate future into it,
causing it to cease to exist.
She then psychically reached backwards in time to encourage Cyclops to "live",
to accept Emma Frost's love and thus remain at the Institute;
as a result,
the original timeline that led to Sublime's possession of the Beast has been negated."


............................................................................................................


(MarvelDataBase)

All the major characters involved in HCT have a mini separate reference here:

http://en.marveldatabase.com/Category:Earth-15104


Logan's (James Howlett) is here: (scroll down to the center of the page)

http://en.marveldatabase.com/James_Howlett#James_Howlett_.28Earth-15104.29



ALL of them .... were from Reality 15104

The Universe they came from (Reality 15104) first appeared in NX-M #150-151


(bare in mind, Jean amputated this Timeline's future in NX-M #154)


............................................................................................................


(Wikipedia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_Comes_Tomorrow

(at the top)


"Handbook of the MU: Alternate Universes
has given the numerical designation of Earth-15104
to the Here Comes Tomorrow Timeline."



(towards the bottom)

Modern characters referenced:

"Many characters from the modern X-Men/Marvel timeline
were shown to be alive
or have someone carrying on their legacy in this POSSIBLE Future Timeline."

===============================================


Fifth ... I'll post the Here Comes Tomorrow review sites that critique the story:


===============================================




............................................................................................................


(Shaking Through)

http://www.shakingthrough.net/comics/reviews/2004/new_x-men_vol_7_2004.html


Here Comes Tomorrow ...

... "it takes place in a dark Future" ...
... "four-part storyline opens in that distant future" ...
... "E.V.A. is a member of this future's X-Men" ...
... "to prevent this particular future from ever coming to pass" ...

... "In Claremont's Days of Future Past,
the Kitty Pryde of our time is thrust into the alternate future,
and it's through her eyes that we encounter that bleak world.
All of the characters in Here Comes Tomorrow are of its time period,
and consequently
it's as if we've dropped in to their world" (Reality 15104) "from our own." (616)

... after the whole alternate-future business has already been put to bed ...


............................................................................................................


(The X - Axis)

http://thexaxiscom.site.securepod.com/newxmen/newxmen154.htm


"It's difficult to care
particularly about the fate of the characters from this alternate future,
since very few of them were given enough space to develop a personality".

There's no real sense of what this world might be like to live in,
and consequently none of it feels real.


............................................................................................................


(Comicvine)

http://www.comicvine.com/wolverine/29-1440/story-arcs/


Here Comes Tomorrow ... (scroll down to the center of the page)


"Here Comes Tomorrow is an alternate future
in which the sentient bacteria Sublime."


............................................................................................................


(Superhero Database)

http://www.superherodb.com/profile.php?hero=jean.grey

(towards the bottom)


"Jean was then resurrected in the last arc of
New X-Men: "Here Comes Tomorrow", bearing the PF entity once again"

"This future timeline went wrong
when Scott Summers decided to decline the offer of Emma Frost
to once again open up Xavier's Institute."


............................................................................................................


(Comicbookshelf)

http://comicbookshelf.com/?rm=detail&id=191

(User Reviews)


"An alternate future storyline to tie up some of Morrison's loose ends."

"The alternate future Morrison creates has an interesting feel to it."


............................................................................................................

Well, that's all the necessary info, I threw in my opinion,
but think it through, and perhaps you'll agree or come up with another opinion,
cause that's all this is, and opinion based on the materials presented,
that came from comic book stories I read,
and I encourage others to do so if necessary to formulate a clear, more detailed opinion.


Lastly, imo ....

If "Here Comes Tomorrow" is the "real" Future of 616,
simply because Jean touched Scott in the Present 616
to affect said Future (Here Comes Tomorrow)

Then Marvel has a truck load of "Real" FutureS,
since ALL of my examples revolve around the SAME exact action.
ALL of those stories above involve traveling to the PAST (Present 616)
in order to alter events in different FutureS.

Funny thing is ... I only posted some of them. (there's many more)


meh, and the Cable example is a strong argument,
as he ALTERED his entire FUTURE Reality,
by traveling to the Past (Present 616) and manipulating events there.

Originally posted by Scoobless

Is it still a debate if you're just talking to yourself?
Originally posted by Raoul

who knows?
I was laying out all my opinions on the matter,
so I don't have to re-post them later,
I've debated this subject with a few individuals prior,
those are all my reasons behind said opinions,
the point was for others to go through them,
or pick a copy of New X-New relevant issues and participate in the debate.

btw. I haven't talked to my self since I was a kid
when I saw aunt lucia in the light at the wrong time.

Originally posted by Raoul
oh my sweet jesus...
Indeed.
Originally posted by Mr Master
the final debate!
http://i35.tinypic.com/25g4b3m.gif

What the hell odes any of this have to do with WWH beating Superman though? ... that's the real question.

Originally posted by Scoobless
What the hell odes any of this have to do with WWH beating Superman though? ... that's the real question.

indeed it is...

Dayaaaaaaaaaaayum! To say that u put a loooot of effort and thought into this thread would be an understatement!

Holy shit, very nice work Master!!!!

Originally posted by Darth Vicious
Dayaaaaaaaaaaayum! To say that u put a loooot of effort and thought into this thread would be an understatement!

Too much, one might say.


Mods, please delete this thread.

I actually finished reading this.. Damn, am going to have to re-read it again to fully sock it in but very interesting..

*sigh* Someone find the thread that he made this in response to.

Oh god
*waits for galacticstorm and other phoenix fanboys to show up*

Jesus Christ.

Aneurysm.

How many of you actually read it though? I know I sure as f**k didn't.

Originally posted by Scoobless
How many of you actually read it though? I know I sure as f**k didn't.

I stayed with it for the first few posts.

Once I realized that he eclipsed the first page...I was out of there.

Master, this is coming from a fellow comic book diehard, and also someone who appreciates all the time, thought and effort you put into theses things....

But it might be a decent idea to tone down your obsession with cosmic stuff. Seriously, all I could feel while I browsed page 1 was a slight sense of pity, mixed with an obvious respect for the work. Marvel would do well to take continuity notes from you, but unless they are, you'd probably serve yourself the best by not taking it so seriously.

Maybe I'm out of place. If this is how you get your kicks, I'm happy for you. But that's my two cents.

...not gonna close this, because, well, it's a legit discussion, even if it's only one person doing the grunt work.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Master, this is coming from a fellow comic book diehard, and also someone who appreciates all the time, thought and effort you put into theses things....

But it might be a decent idea to tone down your obsession with cosmic stuff. Seriously, all I could feel while I browsed page 1 was a slight sense of pity, mixed with an obvious respect for the work. Marvel would do well to take continuity notes from you, but unless they are, you'd probably serve yourself the best by not taking it so seriously.

Maybe I'm out of place. If this is how you get your kicks, I'm happy for you. But that's my two cents.

...not gonna close this, because, well, it's a legit discussion, even if it's only one person doing the grunt work.

Closing this was even a consideration? Considering the obvious time and effort invested...that'd be quite low.

It wasn't. But it was suggested a couple times by others. I thought I should address them.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It wasn't. But it was suggested a couple times by others. I thought I should address them.

...In jest?

Eh. I had to browse through the pages to get a feel for things. I try to do it with most new threads to make sure things are going smoothly. Tone is often lost in such perusals. So if they were joking, I may have missed it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Master, this is coming from a fellow comic book diehard, and also someone who appreciates all the time, thought and effort you put into theses things....

But it might be a decent idea to tone down your obsession with cosmic stuff.

Seriously, all I could feel while I browsed page 1 was a slight sense of pity
Wonderful, now that's the spirit of a Mod,

Way ta go chief and with the complete disrespect, by a freakin Mod!
Originally posted by DigiMark007

mixed with an obvious respect for the work.
Marvel would do well to take continuity notes from you,
but unless they are,
you'd probably serve yourself the best by not taking it so seriously.
This is what I call sanctimonious rhetoric,
have you forgotten how in-tuned and kmc driven your ass is plus others up in here?

With yall tourneys, and all kinds of threads that deal with intricate subjects?
obsessive? ... you got balls!!! Tell em me, I'm taking this to serious!

Dude with a super hero suit. Don't worry, I got "action figures" in boxes.
Originally posted by DigiMark007

Maybe I'm out of place. If this is how you get your kicks, I'm happy for you.

But that's my two cents.
You sure right you're out of place, I didn't insult one person in this thread,
this is a discussion that given a chance, would've brought other folks up in here,
but you just came through and just pissed on it like a jerk,
straight up, yea, you are a Mod and you done pissed on my thread,
and the arrogance to tell me I'm taking this too seriously?
What a double standard! ... I really can't believe you did this. Seriously gods.

You wrong, and I know I'm not out of place to tell you that.

What the thread was supposed to be about:

The fellas & I, in the genre that we enjoy over here, the "Cosmics"
had been twirling around in a circle of a discussion,
it was an attempt to bring closure
to to a discussion I noticed was still not finished not too long ago.

Most of those posts were saved, since during debates concerning said subjects were discussed,
but I came across more information,
and that's what I added to what I already had, this was my idea of a thread,
where this discussion can take place with anyone interested,
I didn't force anyone to come in here,
and from the get go everything was done with respect,
and I didn't pass ooff one thing as a concrete fact, but "in my opinion." (IMO)

So, yea, this post is phony, it's a supportive touch with candescence subtly included.

"this is how you get your kicks?"

Originally posted by DigiMark007

...not gonna close this, because, well, it's a legit discussion,

even if it's only one person doing the grunt work.
Well, after the way a Mod popped up in here,
and completely offended the thread maker,
it has to be irrelevant, I mean, even the Mod just stepped all over the Poster's name,
and therefore Rep!

This is the way it's done, this is how disorganized this is ...


I'm out! .... You'll never see this avatar post here again!


Mr Master says peace yall!

See if I'm playin' ...

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wonderful, now that's the spirit of a Mod,

Way ta go chief and with the complete disrespect, by a freakin Mod!

This is what I call sanctimonious rhetoric,
have you forgotten how in-tuned and kmc driven your ass is plus others up in here?

With yall tourneys, and all kinds of threads that deal with intricate subjects?
obsessive? ... you got balls!!! Tell em me, I'm taking this to serious!

Dude with a super hero suit. Don't worry, I got "action figures" in boxes.

You sure right you're out of place, I didn't insult one person in this thread,
this is a discussion that given a chance, would've brought other folks up in here,
but you just came through and just pissed on it like a jerk,
straight up, yea, you are a Mod and you done pissed on my thread,
and the arrogance to tell me I'm taking this too seriously?
What a double standard! ... I really can't believe you did this. Seriously gods.

You wrong, and I know I'm not out of place to tell you that.

What the thread was supposed to be about:

The fellas & I, in the genre that we enjoy over here, the "Cosmics"
had been twirling around in a circle of a discussion,
it was an attempt to bring closure
to to a discussion I noticed was still not finished not too long ago.

Most of those posts were saved, since during debates concerning said subjects were discussed,
but I came across more information,
and that's what I added to what I already had, this was my idea of a thread,
where this discussion can take place with anyone interested,
I didn't force anyone to come in here,
and from the get go everything was done with respect,
and I didn't pass ooff one thing as a concrete fact, but "in my opinion." (IMO)

So, yea, this post is phony, it's a supportive touch with candescence subtly included.

"this is how you get your kicks?"


Well, after the way a Mod popped up in here,
and completely offended the thread maker,
it has to be irrelevant, I mean, even the Mod just stepped all over the Poster's name,
and therefore Rep!

This is the way it's done, this is how disorganized this is ...


I'm out! .... You'll never see this avatar post here again!


Mr Master says peace yall!

See if I'm playin' ...

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l130/Red_Atom/zirrxc.gif

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l130/Red_Atom/1216683891.jpg

Guuuuuys...why so SERIOUS?

Edit: Dammit someone beat me to it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wonderful, now that's the spirit of a Mod,

Way ta go chief and with the complete disrespect, by a freakin Mod!

This is what I call sanctimonious rhetoric,
have you forgotten how in-tuned and kmc driven your ass is plus others up in here?

With yall tourneys, and all kinds of threads that deal with intricate subjects?
obsessive? ... you got balls!!! Tell em me, I'm taking this to serious!

Dude with a super hero suit. Don't worry, I got "action figures" in boxes.

You sure right you're out of place, I didn't insult one person in this thread,
this is a discussion that given a chance, would've brought other folks up in here,
but you just came through and just pissed on it like a jerk,
straight up, yea, you are a Mod and you done pissed on my thread,
and the arrogance to tell me I'm taking this too seriously?
What a double standard! ... I really can't believe you did this. Seriously gods.

You wrong, and I know I'm not out of place to tell you that.

What the thread was supposed to be about:

The fellas & I, in the genre that we enjoy over here, the "Cosmics"
had been twirling around in a circle of a discussion,
it was an attempt to bring closure
to to a discussion I noticed was still not finished not too long ago.

Most of those posts were saved, since during debates concerning said subjects were discussed,
but I came across more information,
and that's what I added to what I already had, this was my idea of a thread,
where this discussion can take place with anyone interested,
I didn't force anyone to come in here,
and from the get go everything was done with respect,
and I didn't pass ooff one thing as a concrete fact, but "in my opinion." (IMO)

So, yea, this post is phony, it's a supportive touch with candescence subtly included.

"this is how you get your kicks?"


Well, after the way a Mod popped up in here,
and completely offended the thread maker,
it has to be irrelevant, I mean, even the Mod just stepped all over the Poster's name,
and therefore Rep!

This is the way it's done, this is how disorganized this is ...


I'm out! .... You'll never see this avatar post here again!


Mr Master says peace yall!

See if I'm playin' ...

Mr Master,

Digi is asking you nicely. I can come here and close this thread on the basis of SPAMMING.

You're not having a conversation. You're not doing a discussion. You're only posting and trying to make your judgements with the final word.

That's not a discussion. I would suggest to tone it down. If you wish to leave because you don't feel appreciated. Let it be...we don't hold you back. You come and leave when you please. But if you do break the rules or even try to bend them. We will put a stop to it.

I will leave this on decision of the appointed moderator. Closing or open...

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Mr Master,

Digi is asking you nicely. I can come here and close this thread on the basis of SPAMMING.

You're not having a conversation. You're not doing a discussion. You're only posting and trying to make your judgements with the final word.

That's not a discussion. I would suggest to tone it down. If you wish to leave because you don't feel appreciated. Let it be...we don't hold you back. You come and leave when you please. But if you do break the rules or even try to bend them. We will put a stop to it.

I will leave this on decision of the appointed moderator. Closing or open...

You banned me...it hurt my feelings

Originally posted by Air Legend
Guuuuuys...why so SERIOUS?

Edit: Dammit someone beat me to it.
The very fact that you thought of it, actually makes me feel dirty, I withdraw my post!

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush
You banned me...it hurt my feelings
yea the bannings that have happened within the last few months have been complete utter bullshit. Even you, a liked poster by that select group you know I'm talking about, got banned for no reason.

Originally posted by Air Legend
yea the bannings that have happened within the last few months have been complete utter bullshit. Even you, a liked poster by that select group you know I'm talking about, got banned for no reason.

lol, most folks found my banning unjust, and frankly, I knew it was going to happen, i was more annoyed at the when. It was near the end of a tourney, could have waited 3-4 days.

But a complement! I no longer withdraw my post!

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The Beyonder is boring. The Phoenix is boring. High level cosmics are boring. I don't see why anyone gives a flying f*ck which one can destroy more universes? Who cares? They're usually poorly characterised because writers think readers are dumb enough to go "Oooh ahhh so powerful... sparkly." like stoned teenagers playing with aluminium foil. They're next to useless on these forums because there's no one to use them against. Except for other boring high level cosmics.

Squirrel Girl ftw.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot


X, We love you, sign on to msn.

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush
lol, most folks found my banning unjust, and frankly, I knew it was going to happen, i was more annoyed at the when. It was near the end of a tourney, could have waited 3-4 days.

But a complement! I no longer withdraw my post!
your ban should have been a perma ban

Originally posted by skyfather
your ban should have been a perma ban

And Your lungs should have stopped functioning. Both statements have no just-reason behind it.

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush
And Your lungs should have stopped functioning. Both statements have no just-reason behind it.
dont they

Originally posted by skyfather
dont they

So you're saying that you agree that your lungs should stop functioning.

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush
So you're saying that you agree that your lungs should stop functioning.
no,you should have been banned for just being a dick who only spams any thread he every posts in.

Originally posted by skyfather
any thread he every posts in.


Grammar is over rated.



Just throwing that out there.

Originally posted by skyfather
no,you should have been banned for just being a dick who only spams any thread he every posts in. I 2nd this motion.

Originally posted by Boy Blue
I 2nd this motion.


I 3rded it

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush
I 3rded it Stop spamming, you dick.

Originally posted by Boy Blue
Stop spamming, you dick.

I'm just giving Digi and Dwarf more reason to close this thread haermm

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush
I'm just giving Digi and Dwarf more reason to close this thread haermm I will thwart you with my e-strength.

Enough with your shenanigans.

Originally posted by Boy Blue
I will thwart you with my e-strength.

Enough with your shenanigans.


By Lucifer's Beard! Foiled Yet Again!

Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush
By Lucifer's Beard! Foiled Yet Again! Great Odin's raven! The power of Smurph triumphs once again!

Thanks Paul. 313

By the Power of Greyskull?

By the Odor of X!

Pfft, my odor is like perfume, Princess.

By the Phallus of Raoul!

By Dante Sparda's sarcasm!

thread killed

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
By Dante Sparda's sarcasm! Originally posted by Dr Hackenbush
thread killed

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
By the Phallus of Raoul! Titled

Originally posted by Air Legend
yea the bannings that have happened within the last few months have been complete utter bullshit. Even you, a liked poster by that select group you know I'm talking about, got banned for no reason.

why don't you tell us how you really feel? pr1983

Originally posted by Boy Blue
Great Odin's raven! The power of Smurph triumphs once again!

Thanks Paul. 313



Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Pfft, my odor is like perfume, Princess.

By the Phallus of Raoul!

...

So what Mr Master is saying is that Phoenix>>>>>>>Everyone else......




..........what?? I read two lines.

Originally posted by willRules
So what Mr Master is saying is that Phoenix>>>>>>>Everyone else......




..........what?? I read two lines.

he's actually saying the opposite...

Closed until further notice for some obvious reasons.

Master, my words were a genuine desire to help you out and offer advice. I fail to see the insult, or why it warranted such a vehement backlash. If there was a misunderstanding, it could have easily been rectified via PM rather than flying off on me before discussing it.