Does flight speed equal combat speed

fangirl101

Originally posted by janus77
oh, but then... Surfer travels at FTL speeds in "straight-lines" only?

my point was that the feat was hyperbole. it wasn't instantaneous, it was faster than teleportation. I think there's a Surfer scan where he does just that too.

Surfer's reaction speeds are far beyond C speeds, his flight requires that he be capable of such reaction speeds, or else he'd be long dead or constantly smashing through planets because he got bounced by an asteroid or a passing Celestial...
If you have a long enough range of vision, or cosmic senses, you would know when to alter your course. Which is not at all the same as something suddenly appearing in front of you and you reacting to it.

TricksterPriest

Flash has moved so fast, he was able to simultaniously exist on two different teams. no expression

Give the man his ****ing due. erm

Board Walker

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Flash has moved so fast, he was able to simultaniously exist on two different teams. no expression

Give the man his ****ing due. erm

I know this doesn't have relevance here, but about being fast...two words..

Kingdom come

janus77

Originally posted by fangirl101
If you have a long enough range of vision, or cosmic senses, you would know when to alter your course. Which is not at all the same as something suddenly appearing in front of you and you reacting to it.
we're talking moving objects crossing his path when he's already at many multiples of C (which he achieves near enough instantaneously).

regardless of how long your depth of vision is, you still have to process all the information whilst travelling at >>> C, because your course changes when you navigate the obstacles - seeing new obstacles that were obscured initially.

Surfer's also scanned the whole planet in the time it took Strange to complete a sentence. attacked cities around the Earth in a few panels...

Surfer's reaction speeds are pretty uber.

fangirl101

Originally posted by Board Walker
I know this doesn't have relevance here, but about being fast...two words..

Kingdom come
That flash was rediculous DC stroking. Existing not only in all places at once, but multiple realities and dimensions too. Seriously.

fangirl101

Originally posted by janus77 we're talking moving objects crossing his path when he's already at many multiples of C (which he achieves near enough instantaneously).regardless of how long your depth of vision is, you still have to process all the information whilst travelling at >>> C, because your course changes when you navigate the obstacles - seeing new obstacles that were obscured initially.Surfer's also scanned the whole planet in the time it took Strange to complete a sentence. attacked cities around the Earth in a few panels...Surfer's reaction speeds are pretty uber. I say they are good for long range stuff. I never see him reacting to things up close on him. reacting to an asteroid is a lot different that reacting to say, Superman. Who would be like moving and changing directions and stuff.

Avlon

Originally posted by janus77
what are his "horrible" showings of reaction speed?
anyone of them remotely PIS/CIS free?

the character is designed to scout the universe, to chart the stars (literally) and is so fast that he can travel in time.

you can bring up Black Panther, bricks et al, the fact remains PIS/CIS if PIS/CIS.

NeK5ZjtpO-M

By that example this guy must be the fastest fighter with the best reactions ever then. smile

bbrem123

flash is just freakishly fast

Ouallada

Most of the time, no.

However, combat speed for certain characters, in my opinion, pertains more to h2h/reaction-based speed, while pertaining more towards straight-line speed for others. Brawlers would tend more towards the former, while blasters and ranged characters would tend towards the latter. That isn't to say that they are mutually exclusive, though.

razor4life

See it's things like this that piss me off about the direction comics are going in. When flash can go so fast he can (insert nonsensical thing here) it gets old fast and makes no sense. I enjoyed the days when flash was just a regular fast(freakishly fast still) dude. Now he's practically a god and it disgust me to even read these things sometimes. Anytime someone can outrun death till the end of time I just want to gouge my eyes out.

*prepares for die hard flash fan to tear me apart*

fangirl101

Originally posted by razor4life
See it's things like this that piss me off about the direction comics are going in. When flash can go so fast he can (insert nonsensical thing here) it gets old fast and makes no sense. I enjoyed the days when flash was just a regular fast(freakishly fast still) dude. Now he's practically a god and it disgust me to even read these things sometimes. Anytime someone can outrun death till the end of time I just want to gouge my eyes out.

*prepares for die hard flash fan to tear me apart*

It's no more rediculous than the God damned silver surfer absorbing souls and psychich energy and time traveling. ug. The Silver Surfer is a God.

h1a8

Actually SS reaction speeds are good. But no where near the level some are given him (like Janus). With only human reflexes I can navigate through space traveling at light speed. Think about it. It takes light 8 mins to reach the Sun from Earth. Thus, flying towards the Sun at lightspeed, we have 8 mins to avoid hitting the Sun. Super super slow reactions are needed. The Slowski turtle on Comcast could avoid the Sun traveling at the speed of light. And Stars and other sh!t in space is even further than the distance than Earth is to the Sun (on average). SS intercepting an energy beam from 20m is way more impressive than him navigating through space at super speed. Plus its rumored that he travels in hyperspace when beyond C (thus can't hit anything not in hyperspace). Also SS knows the entire path beforehand. He knows which stars and planets are ahead of him even before he travels. This isn't reactions alone.

With that said, to have great combat speed requires the following. Taking anyone one of these off the list takes away the combat speed tremendously.

1. Great instantenous traveling speeds (speeds from rest).
2. Great reaction speeds.
3. Great arm, leg, torso, limb, etc. speeds.
4. Good skill.

Note: SS doesn't have 4., has only good to average 3., and 1. is iffy for him on average. Thus this makes him not have great combat speed. And it shows.

Ouallada

Originally posted by h1a8
Actually SS reaction speeds are good. But no where near the level some are given him (like Janus). With only human reflexes I can navigate through space traveling at light speed. Think about it. It takes light 8 mins to reach the Sun from Earth. Thus, flying towards the Sun at lightspeed, we have 8 mins to avoid hitting the Sun. Super super slow reactions are needed. The Slowski turtle on Comcast could avoid the Sun traveling at the speed of light. And Stars and other sh!t in space is even further than the distance than Earth is to the Sun (on average). SS intercepting an energy beam from 20m is way more impressive than him navigating through space at super speed. Plus its rumored that he travels in hyperspace when beyond C (thus can't hit anything not in hyperspace). Also SS knows the entire path beforehand. He knows which stars and planets are ahead of him even before he travels. This isn't reactions alone.

With that said, to have great combat speed requires the following. Taking anyone one of these off the list takes away the combat speed tremendously.

1. Great instantenous traveling speeds (speeds from rest).
2. Great reaction speeds.
3. Great arm, leg, torso, limb, etc. speeds.
4. Good skill.

Note: SS doesn't have 4., has only good to average 3., and 1. is iffy for him on average. Thus this makes him not have great combat speed. And it shows.

Firstly, I agree that SS is certainly overhyped by some people. Now, let me address some of your points.

People aren't referring to planetary bodies most of the time. They refer to asteroid belts and space debris when crediting SS with needing fast reaction speeds to avoid collision, especially as he travels at speeds constantly above C. As for whether or not SS is able to map out his journey, it is of course possible. Unfortunately, that doesn't equate to him being automatically able to micro-manage his flight without reflexes.

Point 1: There are extremely few clocked instances of high-speed travel from a confirmed position of rest.
Point 2: Covered above.
Point 3: Is a factor. However, moving limbs quickly does not automatically equal combat speed. Otherwise, sprinters would be excellent kickboxers due to their leg speed.
Point 4: SS isn't a h2h fighter. The only form of combat speed he needs is evasive speed. I have covered that in my earlier post.

Doctor-Alvis

Surfer has high combat speed but he rarely goes hand to hand or even needs to use it because of how tankly he is. Even while weakened.

razor4life

so would you say surfer is better at evading in combat than lets say spiderman? comics say no, but if we are going by powerset it says yes. I doubt spiderman is dodging FTL objects.

Endrict Nuul

No and not a VS forum.

Newjak

Originally posted by fangirl101
That flash was rediculous DC stroking. Existing not only in all places at once, but multiple realities and dimensions too. Seriously. The Flash in KC did not exist in all places and all realities at once.

That is one of the biggest comic book myths of all time.

Doctor-Alvis

Originally posted by razor4life
so would you say surfer is better at evading in combat than lets say spiderman? comics say no, but if we are going by powerset it says yes. I doubt spiderman is dodging FTL objects.
He should. I saw a scan of him dodging a bunch of ship fire whilst firing back in what the caption said was a nanosecond.

jrodslam

No it doesnt.

OneDumbG0

In response to the thread maker, no.
Originally posted by Board Walker
janus, you go by comic showings of the character, and surfer has had many many horrible showings of combat reaction speed, while having good showings of high traveling speed. In response to this: roll eyes (sarcastic)

kgkg

DigiMark007

No, they aren't. Impressing this point on people is occasionally difficult, especially with people like Surfer.

Anyway, ignoring the silver one for a second and talking generally, some people have 1, some have both. But there's a clear distinction, and comics are generally fairly consistent on this point.

Symmetric Chaos

High combat speed often means high travel speed but it reltionship doesn't work as well the other way.

Originally posted by Newjak
The Flash in KC did not exist in all places and all realities at once.

That is one of the biggest comic book myths of all time.

He could effectively be in more than one, however.

Newjak

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
High combat speed often means high travel speed but it reltionship doesn't work as well the other way.

He could effectively be in more than one, however. Is this in response to the Realities or places part?

Symmetric Chaos

Originally posted by Newjak
Is this in response to the Realities or places part?

Both. He was in the place that Spectre and the narrator were hiding and in the Watchtower simultaneously. He was also virtually everywhere at once in his city.

Newjak

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Both. He was in the place that Spectre and the narrator were hiding and in the Watchtower simultaneously. He was also virtually everywhere at once in his city. Places part was just par tof his speed.

Any lightspeeder should be able to appear everywhere in a city at once. Especially where the trouble is at.

I don't remember him being able to be near the Spectre.

I don't remember Flash actually being in the same reality as the narrator, just him pulling him out. I'd have to double check on that one though.

But I know for certain that the Spectre made the narrator invisible not to soon after that. Even to the Flash.

Edit:

Just reread it. I says that the Flash is too fast to be contained by one reality that entire stratas are open to him.

Personally what I got from this is more like if someone can see an Astral Form.

But I can see where you could get your statement from as well, imo.

Mindship

Depends on the character. For some, flying does nothing superhuman for their sensorimotor functioning (eg, Human Torch). For others, these speeds can be equal, but not because of direct involvement. Superman, eg, still has top-tier combat speed even when he isn't deploying flight energy.

Still, other characters are defined by the use of some kind of energy (eg, magic, power cosmic) which can affect them in virtually any and every way imaginable. In this context, flight speed and combat speed, again, can be equal.

h1a8

Originally posted by Ouallada
Firstly, I agree that SS is certainly overhyped by some people. Now, let me address some of your points.

People aren't referring to planetary bodies most of the time. They refer to asteroid belts and space debris when crediting SS with needing fast reaction speeds to avoid collision, especially as he travels at speeds constantly above C. As for whether or not SS is able to map out his journey, it is of course possible. Unfortunately, that doesn't equate to him being automatically able to micro-manage his flight without reflexes.

Point 1: There are extremely few clocked instances of high-speed travel from a confirmed position of rest.
Point 2: Covered above.
Point 3: Is a factor. However, moving limbs quickly does not automatically equal combat speed. Otherwise, sprinters would be excellent kickboxers due to their leg speed.
Point 4: SS isn't a h2h fighter. The only form of combat speed he needs is evasive speed. I have covered that in my earlier post.

But he doesn't constantly travel above C. Show me one scan where he is dodging asteroids inside a belt traveling above C. Do you know the average distance between asteroids? The average distance is enough for it to take light almost a second from one asteroid to another. Distances in space is vast, even between asteroids. A second is an eternity to Superman. Plus traveling in hyperspace (above C) doesn't require one to dodge anything not in hyperspace. This is because SS can only come in contact with objects in hyperspace with him.

And know that I mentioned that all points have to be covered to have great combat speed. So of course 3. alone doesn't make great combat speed, it needs 1,2, and 4 to go along with it. And SS needs skill in 4. in order to show how to deal with someone at close range throwing multiple punches at him.

Ouallada

Originally posted by h1a8
But he doesn't constantly travel above C. Show me one scan where he is dodging asteroids inside a belt traveling above C. Do you know the average distance between asteroids? The average distance is enough for it to take light almost a second from one asteroid to another. Distances in space is vast, even between asteroids. A second is an eternity to Superman. Plus traveling in hyperspace (above C) doesn't require one to dodge anything not in hyperspace. This is because SS can only come in contact with objects in hyperspace with him.

And know that I mentioned that all points have to be covered to have great combat speed. So of course 3. alone doesn't make great combat speed, it needs 1,2, and 4 to go along with it. And SS needs skill in 4. in order to show how to deal with someone at close range throwing multiple punches at him.

Correction: he isn't constantly explicitly stated in words or numbers to travel above C. The same applies for 99.9% of feats. I would be worried if a reader needed such superfluous information to tell them something that they should have already inferred from the surfer's powerset, what he has consistently done, and what his role as a herald is.

There was a feat in which he mapped billions stars as he traveled past them. That shows that he has the mental capacity to handle large amounts of information, linked closely to reflex. When he has been shown to travel at such high multiples of C, the distances you speak of are nigh irrelevant. Have you ever seen him peppered by space debris?

As for hyperspace, that is simply a star trek notion that you are attempting to pass off as truth. Surfer, as well as many other characters, have traveled faster than C without going into hyperspace.

As for your points, I have already explained my position.
Point 1: Let's see scans of Superman or WW accelerating at above C from rest. A lack thereof would automatically discount them from having FTL combat speed. By your logic of course.
Point 2: Covered above
Point 3: You have already agreed that SS has this
Point 4: I have already mentioned that brawlers and h2h characters require different forms of combat speed to blasters. Just to add, having combat speed is not entirely consistent with having skill. Lacking the latter simply means you lack the application for your speed. To re-iterate, said speed is not the same as the speed at which one can move limbs.

h1a8

Originally posted by Ouallada
Correction: he isn't constantly explicitly stated in words or numbers to travel above C. The same applies for 99.9% of feats. I would be worried if a reader needed such superfluous information to tell them something that they should have already inferred from the surfer's powerset, what he has consistently done, and what his role as a herald is. There is nothing to suggest that SS travels above C when dodging asteroids. All the scans make him appear to be traveling far below C when within a solar system, where asteroids exist. It is rather idiotic to even infer things that was never shown to happen. There's no basis.
One great feat isn't enough remember? His average is far below that. Also, in Hyperspace there is nothing to hit and thus nothing that needs dodging.
Prove it! This is where you disagree with the truth. My position still holds; SS travels through hyperspace when traveling above C.

What does this have to do with what I said? Your losing it man, fast.
Who mentioned Superman or WW in 1.? I didn't even say how fast one must accelerate from rest. Great combat speed is relative and subjective. Spiderman has great combat speed to a human but not to Superman or Flash. The point is that one needs all the above in order to have great combat speed relative to whom they are fighting (or relative to the majority of beings in the universe). This is not debatable. And without skill one becomes a moron with great speed who cannot even hit a still target or cannot avoid geting armbarred by a enhanced human. Skill is indeed required.

Ouallada

Originally posted by h1a8
There is nothing to suggest that SS travels above C when dodging asteroids. All the scans make him appear to be traveling far below C when within a solar system, where asteroids exist. It is rather idiotic to even infer things that was never shown to happen. There's no basis.

Go ahead and show the scans. As far is inference goes, I prefer panels in which 6million light year journeys are infered, not wholy illustrated. Every single visual medium uses inference. Surfer has been stated to be above C plenty enough times to make an inference at least either way, if not for constant FTL.

Originally posted by h1a8
One great feat isn't enough remember? His average is far below that. Also, in Hyperspace there is nothing to hit and thus nothing that needs dodging.

Speed feats? Go look at his respect thread. Reflexes? He has dodged laser fire and neutralised that beam by spinning around it.

Ah, the hyperspace panic room. Feel free to prove that SS is in hyperspace each time he exceeds C. Even better. You have a FTL feat of his that you love bringing up -- the IG gauntlet snatch. Show me hyperspace in that instance. Please.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove it! This is where you disagree with the truth. My position still holds; SS travels through hyperspace when traveling above C.

Right. Am waiting on the hyperspace part of the IG feat. I expect to be kept waiting.

Originally posted by h1a8
What does this have to do with what I said? Your losing it man, fast.
Who mentioned Superman or WW in 1.? I didn't even say how fast one must accelerate from rest. Great combat speed is relative and subjective. Spiderman has great combat speed to a human but not to Superman or Flash. The point is that one needs all the above in order to have great combat speed relative to whom they are fighting (or relative to the majority of beings in the universe). This is not debatable. And without skill one becomes a moron with great speed who cannot even hit a still target or cannot avoid geting armbarred by a enhanced human. Skill is indeed required.

Give up the insults, my dear Watson. You aren't any good at them.

I believe that I mentioned both Superman and WW, but never mind. It was a criteria you set, and:

Originally posted by h1a8
And know that I mentioned that all points have to be covered to have great combat speed

says that both of them do not have great combat speed if they lack (1). Evidence -- present it or forever hold your peace.

The rest of my previous post addresses the fact that SS either meets your criteria, or fails in areas that Superman/WW fail as well. As for skill and combat speed, the former is part of the latter, no doubt, but I shall simply state for brevity's sake that combat speed governs mainly over how fast one operates, not entirely congruent with how well one operates. IE while technique plays a part in achieving speed, an entity can have high combat speed (throwing a thousand punches a second) but with little skill (no target coverage, poor connection rate etc).

Galan007

Originally posted by Newjak
The Flash in KC did not exist in all places and all realities at once.

That is one of the biggest comic book myths of all time. kc flash was so fast that he appeared to be in all places at once - and as i'm sure you know, he could also fully and partially dimension hop . however, you are correct in saying that he was not a 'truly' omnipresent being.

Disappear

anyone else remember in identity crisis, where green arrow says that deathstroke is faster than the flash "where it counts"? wally's clearly got the faster travelling speed, but deathstroke still beat him at combat speed. just saying.

Rorschach

Originally posted by Disappear
anyone else remember in identity crisis, where green arrow says that deathstroke is faster than the flash "where it counts"? wally's clearly got the faster travelling speed, but deathstroke still beat him at combat speed. just saying.

Wally's combat speed>Deathstroke's combat speed

no expression

Disappear

apparently not when he's against swords and c-4

TricksterPriest

Deathstroke has an unholy jobber aura versus any Flash.

Disappear

he also apparently uses 90% of his brain's potential, versus the rumored 10% most of us lowly humans use. so there's that.

anyway, it was just an example of how flight or traveling speed isn't always directly correlated to combat speed.

Rorschach

Originally posted by Disappear
apparently not when he's against swords and c-4

PIS.

Wally avoided the C4 but ran into Slade's sword. He should have easily avoided Slade's sword, he had plenty of time to do it.

Besides, Wally has fought battles that have lasted less than a second. Thrown hundreds of punches in less than a second, has near istantanious reaction time, etc. He has far greater combat speed than most other comic book characters.

Oh, and I was under the impression that GA meant Deathstroke could think faster than Flash (which still doesn't make much sense, Wally can think at light-speeds), not that he possessed superior combat speed.

h1a8

Originally posted by Ouallada
Go ahead and show the scans. As far is inference goes, I prefer panels in which 6million light year journeys are infered, not wholy illustrated. Every single visual medium uses inference. Surfer has been stated to be above C plenty enough times to make an inference at least either way, if not for constant FTL.
There is interstellar space and intergalactic space. Assuming that SS doesn't travel in hyperspace to achieve FTL speeds, SS possibly travels nowhere near an asteroid field when traveling above C. If he does then he knew beforehand where the asteroid field is and avoided it altogether. And he possibly only dodges asteroids when under C.

Speed feats? Go look at his respect thread. Reflexes? He has dodged laser fire and neutralised that beam by spinning around it. Yes, but one feat proves nothing remember? SS has some pretty low feats as well. The one you gave is outside his average by far. Even his other high feats (like some you just listed) isn't on par with that one. You should have stated your point differently.
I already did, remember? The official bios and the scan proves it. Just because you see SS traveling in the IG feat doesn't mean he wasn't in hyperspace. What does hyperspace even look like? Who cares? It can be invisible for all we know. Or the artist could simply just show SS traveling in it without having to draw it.

You are not getting me. Combat speed is relative to who you are fighting. Spiderman should have awful 1. when compared to Superman but great 1. when compared to a mere human. In other words, Superman, WW, Spider-man, Wolverine, and SS, and many others have criteria 1 relative to many. I'm sure there are plenty of scans verifying that each one has 1 relative to someone.

I understand. You are right here.

xmarksthespot

Originally posted by Disappear
anyone else remember in identity crisis Flash... and Elongated Man, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Hawkman, The Atom, Zatanna and fricken Kyle Rayner. That's not speed, that's PISpeed.

Juntai

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Flash... and Elongated Man, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Hawkman, The Atom, Zatanna and fricken Kyle Rayner. That's not speed, that's PISpeed. However he's also done that very same thing to the Titans multiple times, a few b-rate teams in his solo series, on and on. As PIS as it is considered on the forum, it's also something natural to his character to be a team wrecker.

Besides, Wally almost has to be subdued by PIS in nearly any story, lol.

Raoul

Originally posted by Juntai
However he's also done that very same thing to the Titans multiple times, a few b-rate teams in his solo series, on and on. As PIS as it is considered on the forum, it's also something natural to his character to be a team wrecker.

Besides, Wally almost has to be subdued by PIS in nearly any story, lol.

pretty much... you'd have to brand slade as a pis based character otherwise...

xmarksthespot

Meh... I know he does it often... still seems silly that Batgirl alone essentially stalemates while Batgirl, Nightwing, Donna Troy, Ravager and Jericho look like idiots. And pretty much any singular person from that Identity Crisis fight should at least give a good fight or completely stomp him.

Must be inverse ninja law.

Juntai

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Meh... I know he does it often... still seems silly that Batgirl alone essentially stalemates while Batgirl, Nightwing, Donna Troy, Ravager and Jericho look like idiots. And pretty much any singular person from that Identity Crisis fight should at least give a good fight or completely stomp him.

Must be inverse ninja law. iirc, the one were Deathstroke first brought in Rose as Ravager, Slade was overwhelming Batigirl and was too fast for her, and she even read it as if he was toying with her and not taking it serious/not trying to put her down.

However, it could be applied that Nightwing has had a decent showing against him, however even Nightwing with or without a group, typically is no match for him.

Donna I don't think has ever really been a match for him, despite the reality that she probably should be his physical superior.

And he's typically well above the street levelers, he just sometimes has problems with them, ala Spiderman.

Juntai

And oddly enough, I believe he's something like 4-0 against Wally. Despite what should happen when a guy like that fights Wally.

xmarksthespot

I was more referring to the other fight between her and Deathstroke where he ends it by pulling out a grenade; but for all intents and purposes physically it's seemed a stalemate. (It also states in a hearsay manner in the new Batgirl that Deathstroke drugged her from a distance apparently because he couldn't take her hand-to-hand.)

I don't mind the Flash thing really in comics since it doesn't fly on the forum anyway, I just wish they would at least rationalize it better...

Juntai

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I was more referring to the other fight between her and Deathstroke where he ends it by pulling out a grenade; but for all intents and purposes physically it's seemed a stalemate. (It also states in a hearsay manner in the new Batgirl that Deathstroke drugged her from a distance apparently because he couldn't take her hand-to-hand.)

I don't mind the Flash thing really in comics since it doesn't fly on the forum anyway, I just wish they would at least rationalize it better... Yeah, that's what Batman said, however in two showings what you said as a stalemate, and in another him being too fast and powerful for her, albiet not trying to put her down.

I'm wondering if Slade is going to appear int he new Batgirl comics?

Also, I can't figure out if the Batgirl thing is a mini or an ongoing? Because it said Batgirl in her all new series and didn't mention being "1 of ", but on the DC site, it said 1 of 6.

Disappear

Originally posted by Rorschach
PIS.

Wally avoided the C4 but ran into Slade's sword. He should have easily avoided Slade's sword, he had plenty of time to do it.

Besides, Wally has fought battles that have lasted less than a second. Thrown hundreds of punches in less than a second, has near istantanious reaction time, etc. He has far greater combat speed than most other comic book characters.

Oh, and I was under the impression that GA meant Deathstroke could think faster than Flash (which still doesn't make much sense, Wally can think at light-speeds), not that he possessed superior combat speed.

i'm not trying to take away from wally's feats, especially in discussion with the guy who put together his respect thread it wasn't meant to spiral into a deathstroke v. flash/nightwing/batgirl/teams type of thing. i just meant to point out that combat speed and traveling speed aren't necessarily the same thing, or even correlated, in certain instances.

and i took it to mean that even though wally's infinitely faster, slade can still stick him when he needs to. planning + 90% brain use + quick-as-shit reaction time = slade sticking wally. not that he should, given who wally is and what he's done, but that he can. combat speed v. traveling speed.

Ouallada

Originally posted by h1a8
There is interstellar space and intergalactic space. Assuming that SS doesn't travel in hyperspace to achieve FTL speeds, SS possibly travels nowhere near an asteroid field when traveling above C. If he does then he knew beforehand where the asteroid field is and avoided it altogether. And he possibly only dodges asteroids when under C.

Traveling in hyperspace is an assumption. Only dodging space debris and bodies when under C is an assumption. Traveling nowhere near an asteroid field when above C is an assumption. There is a difference between assuming, as you have done, and inference from known and constantly recurring facts.

Yes, there is interstellar and intergalactic space, neither of which is exceptionally useful here because it is pretty obvious that a herald of Galactus does plenty of work within galaxies. As for the density of said galaxies, no one knows, although it is a safe bet that there are some markedly denser than ours.

I would like to see the scans that you mentioned.

Originally posted by h1a8 Yes, but one feat proves nothing remember? SS has some pretty low feats as well. The one you gave is outside his average by far. Even his other high feats (like some you just listed) isn't on par with that one. You should have stated your point differently.

That was in response to you asking for a scan with regards to SS avoiding asteroids. A fair enough parallel. Plenty of SS reaction scans have been posted on the board over the past few days. Plenty enough to establish such feats as within his reach in normal situations. If by pretty low feats you mean getting hit by slower characters, the same situation applies to all speedsters.

Originally posted by h1a8
I already did, remember? The official bios and the scan proves it. Just because you see SS traveling in the IG feat doesn't mean he wasn't in hyperspace. What does hyperspace even look like? Who cares? It can be invisible for all we know. Or the artist could simply just show SS traveling in it without having to draw it.

That single scan that stated he was reaching warp speed, which is unquantified in comics? The same hyperspace that I cannot recall being applied in comics? Simply put, you assuming that SS might have been in hyperspace doesn't cut it with me. I like assuming that purple mushrooms with suspenders and tophats exist in unseen regions as well. Doesn't mean it holds any water. A person who likes to speak of science should embrace this without me pointing it out.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are not getting me. Combat speed is relative to who you are fighting. Spiderman should have awful 1. when compared to Superman but great 1. when compared to a mere human. In other words, Superman, WW, Spider-man, Wolverine, and SS, and many others have criteria 1 relative to many. I'm sure there are plenty of scans verifying that each one has 1 relative to someone.

Reread what I said. You assuming that Doomsday is flash-level because of his speed relative to a GL or Booster Gold is fallacious. Nothing else matters.

Originally posted by h1a8
I understand. You are right here.

Right.

h1a8

Originally posted by Ouallada
Traveling in hyperspace is an assumption. Only dodging space debris and bodies when under C is an assumption. Traveling nowhere near an asteroid field when above C is an assumption. There is a difference between assuming, as you have done, and inference from known and constantly recurring facts.
Since SS dodging asteroids above C cannot be inferred then it is an assumption as well.
I meant space between stars (within a galaxy) vs. space between planets and their stars (where asteroids exist). The Intergalactic space term was a mistake I think.
And plenty of scans were posted to show WW's speed, strength, and skill. Yet you insist that we go on averages. And high order FTL reactions dwarfs plain light speed reactions. The former is needed (along with instant acceleration speed) to dodge asteroids at speeds far above C.

When using words, one cannot go off their own meaning of the word(s) but the exact meaning of the one(s) who created it. Otherwise, it is impossible to communicate with your audience. Warp speed travel is the same as travel through hyperspace (or Subspace). Warp speed begins after C. The official bios even state that SS travels through hyperspace when traveling above C.

It may be fallacious but I accept it as the truth. Now I still have a point even if I decide to not accept that DD is faster than flash. The point is he will still stomp Cable before he can react. Flash-like speed or not, he is fast enough to do it.

Ouallada

Originally posted by h1a8
Since SS dodging asteroids above C cannot be inferred then it is an assumption as well.

SImply put, we have seen SS travel above C many times in space, and his role as a herald puts him within galaxies, where asteroid belts exist. It isn't an assumption so much as a logical conclusion. Plenty of other feats pertaining to his reactions have been posted recently.

Originally posted by h1a8
I meant space between stars (within a galaxy) vs. space between planets and their stars (where asteroids exist). The Intergalactic space term was a mistake I think.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by h1a8
And plenty of scans were posted to show WW's speed, strength, and skill. Yet you insist that we go on averages. And high order FTL reactions dwarfs plain light speed reactions. The former is needed (along with instant acceleration speed) to dodge asteroids at speeds far above C.

I'm not going through the logic behind going on averages with you again. As far as WW goes, SS has similar or superior reaction feats to her, along with much higher travel speed. I don't see why you're bringing her up again, unless it is to fulfil my request for evidence of criteria (1).

The feat I gave you is evidence enough of SS' mental capacities. Dodging an armada's laser fire and neutralising a laser beam at close range show FTL reactions at the very very least.

Originally posted by h1a8
When using words, one cannot go off their own meaning of the word(s) but the exact meaning of the one(s) who created it. Otherwise, it is impossible to communicate with your audience. Warp speed travel is the same as travel through hyperspace (or Subspace). Warp speed begins after C. The official bios even state that SS travels through hyperspace when traveling above C.

I have already mentioned that pseudo-scientific and pop-culture terms are free for artistic interpretation in a previous debate. As I mentioned, showing me that hyperspace is used and results in a medium in which the speedster cannot be hit would make me concede the point. Otherwise, I don't see why star trek vocabulary is taken to be the gospel here.

Originally posted by h1a8
It may be fallacious but I accept it as the truth. Now I still have a point even if I decide to not accept that DD is faster than flash. The point is he will still stomp Cable before he can react. Flash-like speed or not, he is fast enough to do it.

That isn't the point I'm debating against, in the other thread, and certainly not here.

If it is fallacious but you accept it as the truth, that really is all she said, in my book.

Endless Mike

If you could move faster than you could react, you would be crashing into things all the time.

It's canon that Surfer can react at least in the nanosecond range, and he has circled Deathurge and dodged his attacks at faster than light, fended off a speedblitz by the lightspeed Ganymede, searched the entire earth in a few seconds, etc.

Really, I'm not aware of any characters in fiction who can move faster than they can react. That would make their super speed practically worthless.

h1a8

Originally posted by Ouallada
SImply put, we have seen SS travel above C many times in space, and his role as a herald puts him within galaxies, where asteroid belts exist. It isn't an assumption so much as a logical conclusion. Plenty of other feats pertaining to his reactions have been posted recently. The conclusion doesn't follow the premises. How does being able to travel above C automatically gives you the power to dodge asteroids while above C? I can run about 20mph but if i try to dodge random obsticles, that are within 5ft of each other, at that speed then I will fail miserably. You need both the necessary reflexes and necessary instant acceleration to change directions. And this is assuming that SS isn't in hyperspace when above C.

Then WW beats WWH any day of the week. Was it you who was arguing with me about that?

Yet you insist that we go on averages. And close range is an opinion. I consider close range to be within 10ft. SS blocking a beam of energy from beyond 10ft is only considered light speed reflexes and not FTL ones. The armada thing may be FTL reflexes though (but not nearly on the level of traveling 100C or more in space dodging asteroids). And even so it isn't SS's average, right?

It makes no sense for someone to use a definition of a word in a different manner than what everyone in the world knows it to be. It is even sillier to assume that a writer would do this.
If I believe it to be fallacious then I wouldn't accept it. But no human is perfect.

h1a8

Originally posted by Endless Mike
If you could move faster than you could react, you would be crashing into things all the time. False! You just avoid trying to go through things that you can't at a particular speed. For example, you wouldn't see a rational person running at 20mph through random obsticles that are within 5 feet of each other. Either that person would have to slow down or they would have to hit an obstacle.
False! It is unknown whether SS was moving faster or at the speed of light. And if so then nanosecond reflexes is about light speed reflexes and not 100C or more reflexes.
Your logic here is wrong. Reaction doesn't equal speed. Distance plays a part, as proven in the above example. Also reactions are only the half of it. One must be able to chance directions in sufficient time.

Mindship

Originally posted by h1a8
False! It is unknown whether SS was moving faster or at the speed of light. And if so then nanosecond reflexes is about light speed reflexes and not 100C or more reflexes.Let's do a little math...
Originally posted by darthgoober
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/48/marvelcomicspresents001fk4.jpg
The Surfer says in the fourth panel: "A nano-second more and I shall be thus encumbered for all eternity." In the fifth panel he says: "But that nano-second will not pass." This implies he completed his action in less than nanosec time, ie, he did what he did before the second nanosec could pass. What exactly did he do in that time?

On panel, it seems as if he swung his straight arms from behind himself to above his head. Put another way, SS's fists traveled about 6 feet. That's 6 feet in (less than) nanosec time.

The speed of light is about 182,000 miles/sec, or nearly 1 billion feet/sec. Light travels less than 1 foot in nanosec time.

The Surfer moved his fists minimally 6 times faster than light.

Not a bad guess, h1a8.

h1a8

Originally posted by Mindship
Let's do a little math...

The Surfer says in the fourth panel: "A nano-second more and I shall be thus encumbered for all eternity." In the fifth panel he says: "But that nano-second will not pass." This implies he completed his action in less than nanosec time, ie, he did what he did before the second nanosec could pass. What exactly did he do in that time?

On panel, it seems as if he swung his straight arms from behind himself to above his head. Put another way, SS's fists traveled about 6 feet. That's 6 feet in (less than) nanosec time.

The speed of light is about 182,000 miles/sec, or nearly 1 billion feet/sec. Light travels less than 1 foot in nanosec time.

The Surfer moved his fists minimally 6 times faster than light.

Not a bad guess, h1a8.

Very good indeed! Though I take that scan as hyperbole. But I agree that it was a very small amount of time (just not an actual nano-second).

Endless Mike

Why not? We already know he can move that fast.

And in order to slow down to avoid hitting something, you have to be able to see it coming in the first place. Speed without equivalent reaction time is useless.

janus77

the petty attempts at diminishing Surfer's 100x FTL reactions are just laughable.

if any of their arguments were applied consistently across the board to other characters, no character would have any usable feats.

Surfer's established speeds are in excess of millions of times the speed of light, his range of vision is something like from one galaxy to another (iirc), thus to travel ANYWHERE at the speeds he is show ON-PANEL travelling at, he would need to be constantly taking in and processing information, because within hundredths of a second he would have passed the horizon of his vision before he set off.

it's is beyond argument, that Surfer possess 100x FTL reaction, processing and analysis abilities.

Mindship

Originally posted by janus77
the petty attempts at diminishing Surfer's 100x FTL reactions are just laughable.
For the record, I wasn't attempting to diminish SS's speed. Specifically, I was just curious as to what an actual figure would be based on that particular scan. I'm sure that had the writer been familiar with the term "pico-second," we could've just as easily seen that on-panel, in which case the Surfer would've moved his fists minimally at 6000 cee, which certainly would be no violation of his powerset.

It's like "hyperspace" or "warp." "Nano-" is trendy technobabble.

janus77

Originally posted by Mindship
For the record, I wasn't attempting to diminish SS's speed. Specifically, I was just curious as to what an actual figure would be based on that particular scan. I'm sure that had the writer been familiar with the term "pico-second," we could've just as easily seen that on-panel, in which case the Surfer would've moved his fists minimally at 6000 cee, which certainly would be no violation of his powerset.

It's like "hyperspace" or "warp." "Nano-" is trendy technobabble.
lol, I guess I should have quoted somebody, I wasn't referring to you.
just the usual suspects who keep making out that somehow Surfer hasn't demonstrated >> C reaction speeds.

I know you've made many cogent arguments that Surfer clearly has >> C reaction speeds.

h1a8

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Why not? We already know he can move that fast.

And in order to slow down to avoid hitting something, you have to be able to see it coming in the first place. Speed without equivalent reaction time is useless.

SS can sense the asteroids before he even starts to travel. He just don't see them and react to slow down. Again, more faulty reasoning. Let's say that I can block, catch, or dodge a bullet from 20 feet away. You can clearly say that I have bullet speed reflexes, right? But if the bullet is shot at 10 feet away instead then I fail and get hit. Do you still say I have bullet speed reflexes?

See the problem is that many are equating reflexes to time when they are not equal. Reflexes require both time and distance and not just time alone. Here's a paradox if one uses the term "nanosecond reflexes".

It takes a 100mph baseball a nanosecond to travel 1.47E-7 feet . Thus if I can hit a 100mph baseball then I indeed have nanosecond reflexes.
But if I have nanosecond reflexes then by the same logic I have 1trillionth of a second reflexes and so on.

h1a8

Originally posted by janus77
the petty attempts at diminishing Surfer's 100x FTL reactions are just laughable.

if any of their arguments were applied consistently across the board to other characters, no character would have any usable feats.

Surfer's established speeds are in excess of millions of times the speed of light, his range of vision is something like from one galaxy to another (iirc), thus to travel ANYWHERE at the speeds he is show ON-PANEL travelling at, he would need to be constantly taking in and processing information, because within hundredths of a second he would have passed the horizon of his vision before he set off.

it's is beyond argument, that Surfer possess 100x FTL reaction, processing and analysis abilities.

Yet it contradicts more than 50% of his appearances.
Also it is possible that before the trip SS calculates that he must travel at about X speed above C for 10 seconds then afterward he must slow down to maybe 5C for about 4 seconds and then afterward slow down to somewhere under C for 1 second. The entire trip takes him 15 secs and he has traveling many lightyears away.

Mindship

Originally posted by h1a8
See the problem is that many are equating reflexes to time when they are not equal. Reflexes require both time and distance and not just time alone. Here's a paradox if one uses the term "nanosecond reflexes". "Millisecond" is the typical unit of measurement when testing reflex speed in the real world.

h1a8

Originally posted by Mindship
"Millisecond" is the typical unit of measurement when testing reflex speed in the real world.

No it isn't. Battle reflexes is based off seeing motion. And motion implies displacement/distance. We are not talking about the reflexes when a Doctor hits you on the knee. We are talking about battle reflexes which require seeing and then responding.

Mindship

Originally posted by h1a8
No it isn't. Battle reflexes is based off seeing motion. And motion implies displacement/distance. We are not talking about the reflexes when a Doctor hits you on the knee. We are talking about battle reflexes which require seeing and then responding. In your post about reflex speed (see below), "battle reflexes" is not mentioned. And in the real world, milliseconds are in fact the typical unit of measurement, whether talking about a doc hitting your knee or, say, blocking a punch in boxing. Google up any article on measuring reflexes and you'll see "milliseconds."

As for battle reflexes: sounds like an h1a8 definition. It's certainly not real world; I'd be curious if you could find a comic-book definition which collaborates your statement. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying but it's not the best route to take. I mean, if Superman can dodge a laser from 20 feet away, we'd say he has lightspeed reflexes. But if he can't dodge it from 10 feet away, does he still have lightspeed reflexes? The distance-factor is a complicating variable, which is why it's not a consideration in real-world reflex measurment.

Originally posted by h1a8
SS can sense the asteroids before he even starts to travel. He just don't see them and react to slow down. Again, more faulty reasoning. Let's say that I can block, catch, or dodge a bullet from 20 feet away. You can clearly say that I have bullet speed reflexes, right? But if the bullet is shot at 10 feet away instead then I fail and get hit. Do you still say I have bullet speed reflexes?

See the problem is that many are equating reflexes to time when they are not equal. Reflexes require both time and distance and not just time alone. Here's a paradox if one uses the term "nanosecond reflexes".

It takes a 100mph baseball a nanosecond to travel 1.47E-7 feet . Thus if I can hit a 100mph baseball then I indeed have nanosecond reflexes.
But if I have nanosecond reflexes then by the same logic I have 1trillionth of a second reflexes and so on. Your last paragraph eludes me. Please explain how billionth-of-a-second reflexes means trillionth-of-a-second reflexes and so on.

Mindship

Sorry for the double-post, but I found this. Fun stuff having to do with "seeing and then responding".

http://www.steriley.com/speed/

Good thing I'm not a superhero.

h1a8

Originally posted by Mindship
In your post about reflex speed (see below), "battle reflexes" is not mentioned. And in the real world, milliseconds are in fact the typical unit of measurement, whether talking about a doc hitting your knee or, say, blocking a punch in boxing. Google up any article on measuring reflexes and you'll see "milliseconds." Okay! But know I'm referring to reflexes that sees motion as in an actual Battle.
Many here are using the notion that Battle Reflexes deals solely with seeing an action and then responding in time. I'm only trying to point out holes in some people's arguments here. Some here are using the logic that if someone can block a beam of light from 20 feet away then they can certainly block a punch traveling nearly the same speed from only 2 feet away.

The error occurs when one only gives a time element to defining visual displacement reflexes and not a distance vs. time ones. For example, let's say that a baseball traveling at 100mph can travel 147 feet per second. Since I can indeed hit baseball then I have 'second' reflexes. But the baseball also travels 1.47x10^-7 feet per nanosecond. Since I can indeed hit the baseball then I have nanosecond reflexes. But the baseball also travels 1.47x10^-10 feet per picosecond. And since I can indeed hit the baseball I have picosecond reflexes. And the logic goes on.

Mindship

Originally posted by h1a8
Many here are using the notion that Battle Reflexes deals solely with seeing an action and then responding in time. I'm only trying to point out holes in some people's arguments here. Some here are using the logic that if someone can block a beam of light from 20 feet away then they can certainly block a punch traveling nearly the same speed from only 2 feet away. Understood.

The error occurs when one only gives a time element to defining visual displacement reflexes and not a distance vs. time ones. For example, let's say that a baseball traveling at 100mph can travel 147 feet per second. Since I can indeed hit baseball then I have 'second' reflexes. But the baseball also travels 1.47x10^-7 feet per nanosecond. Since I can indeed hit the baseball then I have nanosecond reflexes. But the baseball also travels 1.47x10^-10 feet per picosecond. And since I can indeed hit the baseball I have picosecond reflexes. And the logic goes on. Again, I understand your position, but I think this highlights why distance is not a factor in real-world measurements.

How then would you rank a (superhuman) person's reflexes? If (eg) Superman can dodge a red sun laser from 2 feet away but not 1 inch away, does he or does he not have lightspeed reflexes?

Disappear

Originally posted by h1a8
Yet it contradicts more than 50% of his appearances.
Also it is possible that before the trip SS calculates that he must travel at about X speed above C for 10 seconds then afterward he must slow down to maybe 5C for about 4 seconds and then afterward slow down to somewhere under C for 1 second. The entire trip takes him 15 secs and he has traveling many lightyears away.

just to say it, mathematically, to travel even a single lightyear in fifteen seconds, you'd need to be travelling at over 2 million times the speed of light.

h1a8

Originally posted by Mindship
Understood.

Again, I understand your position, but I think this highlights why distance is not a factor in real-world measurements.

How then would you rank a (superhuman) person's reflexes? If (eg) Superman can dodge a red sun laser from 2 feet away but not 1 inch away, does he or does he not have lightspeed reflexes?

IMO, I would probably say that lightspeed reflexes should require one to react to a light beam fired at most 30m (or 100ft) away. The same is with bullet speed reflexes and all other ones (at most 30m). This means if one can dodge an X speed projectile under 30m then they have X speed reflexes. But if they can't then they don't.

30m is probably not a good amount. Maybe 10m is a better estimate. I'm trying to relate it to battle as best I can. I'm open for suggestions.

Good question though!

h1a8

Originally posted by Disappear
just to say it, mathematically, to travel even a single lightyear in fifteen seconds, you'd need to be travelling at over 2 million times the speed of light.

On average.

batdude123

h1a8

Originally posted by batdude123
You'd have to be traveling 391,046,400,000x the speed of light. no expression

Your math is off.
If it takes 15secs for one to travel a distance vs. 3600x24x365secs (1 year) to travel that same distance, then by division we get 2,102,400 times faster.

Or Number of times faster= R1/R2 where R1=1LightYear/15sec and R2=1LightYear/1Year

Disappear

somebody else here likes math...

Mindship

Originally posted by h1a8
IMO, I would probably say that lightspeed reflexes should require one to react to a light beam fired at most 30m (or 100ft) away. The same is with bullet speed reflexes and all other ones (at most 30m). This means if one can dodge an X speed projectile under 30m then they have X speed reflexes. But if they can't then they don't.

30m is probably not a good amount. Maybe 10m is a better estimate. I'm trying to relate it to battle as best I can. I'm open for suggestions.

Good question though!
A year or two back, in a discussion with Yahman about his Strength Scale, I tried to put together a Reflexes/Agility scale, very tough to do because of all the different variables...
1. Speed of incoming assault(s).
2. Number of incoming assault(s).
3. Direction(s) of incoming assault(s).
4. Distance (the one we're discussing here).

In an attempt to simplify, I standardized the Distance Factor to "point-blank range," generally defined (in the real world) as the range at which little/no aiming is required. But thinking about it now, even this could vary, depending on the nature of the attack (for a handgun, point-blank might be ten feet; for a laser gun, it might be 100 feet).

In terms of an absolute range, I would go with arm's length (ie, standard humanoid wink

). In other words, if (eg) Superman was fighting toe-to-toe with someone who could throw lightspeed punches, and Supes could dodge/block them, then he qualifies for lightspeed reflexes.

Disappear

if something is moving at the speed of light, you can't "see it" until it "hits you." no matter how fine-tuned your senses or reflexes are, you won't see what's happening because the object is moving at the exact same speed as the light reflecting off it.

basically, you can't see light in motion, because the ability to see light depends entirely on the light hitting your eye, meaning it's already there. and if you can't see light in motion, how could you practically avoid a beam of light before it hits you?

Mindship

Originally posted by Disappear
if something is moving at the speed of light, you can't "see it" until it "hits you." no matter how fine-tuned your senses or reflexes are, you won't see what's happening because the object is moving at the exact same speed as the light reflecting off it.

basically, you can't see light in motion, because the ability to see light depends entirely on the light hitting your eye, meaning it's already there. and if you can't see light in motion, how could you practically avoid a beam of light before it hits you? Yeah, I've raised this point a few times in other threads. Basically the character would need FTL perception, like being psychic or having a quantum or tachyon sense (really, the whole sensorimotor system would have to be FTL). Then again, characters violate physics all the time. Eh, comics.

Endless Mike

FTL senses are actually quite common in Marvel. It's called "Cosmic Awareness"

Mindship

Ah, so that's how the Surfer has FTL reflexes. shifty

janus77

Originally posted by Endless Mike
FTL senses are actually quite common in Marvel. It's called "Cosmic Awareness"
shifty

Surfer won't see Superman's speedblitz coming, till it's already hit him...

or till Surfer stops killing Superman with the red sun-kryptonite combo ...

Disappear

cosmic awareness isn't necessarily faster than light, it's beyond the normal scope of perception. it's processing information from all across the universe at once, not necessarily processing it more quickly. i suppose if you considered that there could be alternate visual vantage points, like thousands of cameras pointing at a single area, that you could 'see' the light after it's moving but before it strikes your eyes.

still, i remember a scan that said the surfer was listening to something lightyears away, and i just gave up.

h1a8

Originally posted by Disappear
if something is moving at the speed of light, you can't "see it" until it "hits you." no matter how fine-tuned your senses or reflexes are, you won't see what's happening because the object is moving at the exact same speed as the light reflecting off it.

basically, you can't see light in motion, because the ability to see light depends entirely on the light hitting your eye, meaning it's already there. and if you can't see light in motion, how could you practically avoid a beam of light before it hits you?

LOL, true. I thought of that long ago. But these comic beings (like Superman) aren't using light to see. They are emitting some strange energy from their eyes that is traveling far faster than light and in which it bounces back off light to their eyes faster than light does.

Either that or we just accept the BS for what it is. And I don't necessarily mean the comics but rather the theory of relativity itself.

janus77

Originally posted by Disappear
cosmic awareness isn't necessarily faster than light, it's beyond the normal scope of perception. it's processing information from all across the universe at once, not necessarily processing it more quickly. i suppose if you considered that there could be alternate visual vantage points, like thousands of cameras pointing at a single area, that you could 'see' the light after it's moving but before it strikes your eyes.

still, i remember a scan that said the surfer was listening to something lightyears away, and i just gave up.
it must be faster than light. information processing is dependant upon the speed of the 'circuitry' that it goes through.

Surfer has no conceivable way of mapping the Galaxy/"quadrant"/universe in anything like a lifetime, if he cannot process information at speeds far in excess of light.

say if it took him just a hundredth of a second to 'take in' one planet's name, you'd then have to add on another for the planet's mass, another for its orbit duration, another for its gravitational pull ... then multiply all that by hundreds of millions of planets (in any random galaxy), billions of galaxies in a quadrant...

Disappear

it's not like he's looking in one direction, but sweeping his head to cover every inch of the cosmos. cosmic awareness is an expanded consciousness, with multiple vantage points and parallel threads of information being processed simultaneously.

compare normal senses vs cosmic awareness to a pocket mag-lite v. the sun. the mag-lite can only expose and process information in small portions, regardless of how quickly the light's being swung about. the sun illuminates everything around it and ALL of that information could be processed at once.

i'm pretty sure it'd make more sense for surfer to be cataloging the cosmos with cosmic awareness than for him to have to be zipping around exponentially faster actually looking at every individual thing.

janus77

you're not getting my point. I'm saying that the volume of information would implicitly require FTL transmission.

it's like trying to stream HD television across a dozen 56kbps modems to a P60 computer processor.

if you can split the data packets up to send across the array of modems, you still end up with a bottleneck at the processor, which cannot throw up a picture of sufficiently high resolution fast enough to it to look like "motion". each image will take forever to load, refresh, clear, the cache will constantly overflow ...

the bandwidth may be enlarged (sunlight versus mag-lite) but without a boosted processor, you will still be in darkness.

Surfer has to have a "conscious" picture of the universe around him for light-years in every direction. to have that requires that he be able to 'animate' those 'pictures' sufficiently fast enough to make sense of them.

all that on top of the fact that he has to be moving at FTL speeds in order to gather the data (his CA only extends so far, not on the scale of Galactus or Genis, who can sense the whole universe and beyond) which naturally cannot be done without multi-tasking (requiring FTL spatial awareness).

Disappear

i agree he'd need significantly enhanced perception, but not necessarily to the degree you're specifying. in "mapping the cosmos," he's discovering the routes through the planetoids, through the galaxies, and picking up information along the way

similarly, i have a mental map of my surroundings. i know the way from here to work, to the mall, to my friends' houses, and so on and so forth. i know exactly where there's road work, where there are shopping centers or places of abnormal traffic and so on, but i couldn't point out every nook and cranny of every turn in the road on the way. but i do have a mental image of my area, and could map it out rather accurately.

who is to say exactly what level of focus or detail in memory the surfer has? who is to say how acutely he is applying his senses when flying endlessly through space?

janus77

expand the scale by infinity (galaxies) and then reduce the time available to 'recall' the map of any given galaxy to almost zero and there you might have something approximating the minimum requirement of Surfer's thought processing capacity.

nothing can keep moving at FTL speeds in straight lines or in "plotted courses" for any reasonable length of time, without smashing through stuff. by 'reasonable length of time' I mean 8 to 10 seconds... as Surfer can see light years ahead of himself, but can travel at millions of times that distance per second, he would constantly be stopping to get his bearings, because he would be way off course if he was so much as a thousandth of a second late in hitting the brakes.

h1a8

janus you are the biggest exaggerator I have ever seen.
SS is nowhere what you say he is. A simple laptop computer can calculate billions to trillions of information a second. The human brain is far far faster than that. It calculates astronomical amounts of info per second.

Who says that SS even travels at a constant speed? Ever heard of average speed?
SS could simply slow his speed some as he nears his destination but his average speed for the entire trip remains high. It is not as hard as you think. For example, It will take me 8 minutes to reach the Sun if I'm traveling at light speed. But while I'm traveling I will clearly see the Sun growing (getting closer) very slowly. I have plenty of time to adjust my speed so that I wont hit the Sun. I can reach the Sun without hitting it if I started 100 seconds away (Even 5sec is enough for me).

So assuming SS only has 100x the reflexes as me (I know he has more) then he should be able to travel anywhere in the universe without passing his destination if the trip takes him at least a second.
This is easy. Just travel at great speed in the first few seconds then reduce your speed to a more manageable one in the later seconds and you will find yourself reaching your destination that was 5 million light years away in 5 secs. Thus you averaged 1 million light years per second.

Disappear

did you, janus, say the surfer can travel several million lightyears per second?

Mindship

I recently sold a story about a character developing (among other things) quantum consciousness. Ie, when fully developed, he would be able to "see" wavefunctions, this revealing all sorts of information about a given object/process. He was also learning to parallel-process info at superhuman speed.

I don't see why the Surfer couldn't do this.

h1a8

Originally posted by Mindship
I recently sold a story about a character developing (among other things) quantum consciousness. Ie, when fully developed, he would be able to "see" wavefunctions, this revealing all sorts of information about a given object/process. He was also learning to parallel-process info at superhuman speed.

I don't see why the Surfer couldn't do this.
Good point! Everyone is assuming that all being's brains are single processors. The human brain is actually a vast MP computer. It just doesn't process each bit of info one at a time. So SS should be able to process multi pieces of info just like a human or better.

Who did you sell this story too?
You write stories? Got any I can read?

Mindship

Originally posted by h1a8
Good point! Everyone is assuming that all being's brains are single processors. The human brain is actually a vast MP computer. It just doesn't process each bit of info one at a time. So SS should be able to process multi pieces of info just like a human or better. Information processing is generally something superhero comics (being action-oriented) don't seem to focus on, unless it's the character's power.

Who did you sell this story too?
You write stories? Got any I can read? I've been writing for a while (haven't we all), and after amassing a mountain of rejection slips, I finally managed to sell a story to a semipro mag, Tales of the Talisman. They don't pay much, but at least I finally reversed the cash flow, so to speak.

It'll be in their June 2009 issue (yeah, I know, but that's how paper publishing goes; takes 6-12 months between acceptance and seeing it in print).

Ouallada

Originally posted by h1a8
The conclusion doesn't follow the premises. How does being able to travel above C automatically gives you the power to dodge asteroids while above C? I can run about 20mph but if i try to dodge random obsticles, that are within 5ft of each other, at that speed then I will fail miserably. You need both the necessary reflexes and necessary instant acceleration to change directions. And this is assuming that SS isn't in hyperspace when above C.

How many times have you seen Surfer ram into objects while traveling at speed due to a lack of reflex? Weigh that against the number of times he has dodged or nullified blasts at point-blank range, plus the additional fact that he was created to be a herald of G, for which speed and accompanying reflex is not a large assumption at all, and you begin to see why that is an easy conclusion to make.

Originally posted by h1a8

Then WW beats WWH any day of the week. Was it you who was arguing with me about that?

Yet you insist that we go on averages. And close range is an opinion. I consider close range to be within 10ft. SS blocking a beam of energy from beyond 10ft is only considered light speed reflexes and not FTL ones. The armada thing may be FTL reflexes though (but not nearly on the level of traveling 100C or more in space dodging asteroids). And even so it isn't SS's average, right?

Nope, but once again if you would present evidence pertaining to WW having FTL reflexes outside of blocking according to your criteria, I would be pleased.

There are many other examples, as have been presented in various threads. What it proves is that SS does have FTL reflexes at tremendous speeds. The fact that he does get hit answers the point about him having a lower average. This of course means that it is even more possible to hit characters like Superman and WW, who have been hit by far slower.

Originally posted by h1a8

It makes no sense for someone to use a definition of a word in a different manner than what everyone in the world knows it to be. It is even sillier to assume that a writer would do this.

The fact that words can and have been used differently by different proponents shows otherwise. I have already given you plenty of examples in previous discussions. It is even sillier to assume that a writer would not do this. A simple look at time travel pop science already give a multitude of differing opinions on how time travel can be obtained, or how it affects characters. Case in point, grandfather paradox vs multiple created realities.

Originally posted by h1a8

If I believe it to be fallacious then I wouldn't accept it. But no human is perfect.

And yet you have accepted it even while admitting that it is fallacious.