Big Boss vs Solidus Snake

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Snafu the Great
The Big Shell.

George Sears, codename Soldius Snake, is not having the best of days.

His 'son,' Raiden, assisted by the real Solid Snake, had shot down his Harrier. Worse yet, the confrontation had cost him his left eye.

On top of that, there is a rampaging Ninja lurking around the Big Shell. But now, there is a new character that has come to play...

...and he looks just like Solidus.

The man has taken down Fortune, an incredible feat in itself by shooting several crates on top of her head, resulting in an instant knockout. He has even taken out several of the Gurlokovitch mercenaries and a couple of Arsenal Tengu using advanced CQC.

Following Raiden's attempt to destroy the RAY army, Solidus, Ocelot, Fortune and Solid Snake are on the Gear's deck when the newcomer makes his prescence known.

A man who indeed looks like Solidus, save for the trenchcoat concealing his FOXHOUND uniform, the cigar he was currently smoking and more importantly, the eyepatch over his right eye.

Solid: It...it can't be...! You're....

Ocelot: Big...

Solidus: Boss!

Big Boss, the legendary soldier and former FOXHOUND commander, thought to have been dead back in Zanzibarland, has resurfaced. Armed with The Boss' trademark Patriot, he has wrecked havoc on Solidus' forces.

Now, Big Boss is face to face with two of his 'sons.'

Big Boss: (to Solidus) It's like looking in a mirror...only not. Now..what was that line you said back on the bridge? 'The boss to surpass Big Boss?' Would you like to put that to the test?

Solidus: Fine by me! (draws his dual katanas and drops the tentacles) There can only be one Snake, and one Big Boss! You will die by my hand, father!

Big Boss removes the trenchcoat and readies the Patriot in one hand.

Big Boss: You are not in the same league as me. Get ready!

Superboy Prime
I don't see why Solidus can't take it.

Sado22
i'd give it to the coolest vg character ever made: Big Boss

RIP sad

Superboy Prime
And how will Big Boss defeat an exact replica of himself with a power suit that vastly increases his speed and makes him pretty much immune to any harm(MGS Database states this) who is wielding 2 katanas and has shown he can deflect bullets with ease.

Only reason Raiden won is because Snake gave him the HF blade and with it Jack was able to to cut Solidus's spine and therefor he lost the ability to control the suit.

Big Boss does not have the HF blade.

At best they stalemate since the Patriot is infinite and doesn't need to reload.

Sado22
................i just got ownedcry

I hate you SBP!!!
*runs upstairs to his room, jumps on his bed and cries like a girl*

Betterman
Big Boss made a cool entrance too lol.

As for the fight, it's going to be quite a sight. Being the exact clone of Big Boss, Solidus has no genetic edge on him like Liquid did on Solid Snake (even though snake won). Big Boss' experience will definitely give him an edge (as well as unlimited ammo), but Solidus' suit and sword play will give him an edge as well. It was a shame that you took away his tentacles, because that would've made the fight even more interesting. Furthermore, I believe that this Big Boss is the older Big Boss (Sean Connery look alike). So his age might affect him. And if Big Boss, was defeated not once, but twice to the genetic "garbage" of Solid Snake, Solidus might have a shot. However, I believe that Big Boss' experience and skill will grant him victory. After all, it was Snake's skill and determination that allowed him to surpass Big Boss even though he was genetically inferior.

Superboy Prime

Betterman

Snafu the Great

Sado22
or half of the tekken cast for that matter. i won't be surprised if in Tekken7 the Rolling Stones are playable characters laughing

CosmicSurfer
If Solid Snake can beat Big Boss then why can't Solidus? Unless you want to argue that Solid is more skilled than Solidus.

I always thought that Liquid lost to Solid because of his inferiority complex not realizing that he in fact had the dominant genes.

Dark-Jaxx

leonheartmm
erm, are we all IDIOTS?! bigg bos is called big boss for a REASON. solidus might have the same dna but he doesnt have the same SKILLS!!!!!!!! lets see now, in pure hand to hand, big boss has defeated the boss, volgin, gene, and null!!!!! beat THAT solidus. big boss will definately defeat solidus, no prob, and the patriot is overkill. again the only two actually capable of defeating big boss were solid and liquid.

Dark-Jaxx
Solidus killed MEtal Gear Rays and did so easily.

He has a gun that shreds right through their armor.

He blocked their turret fire with his swords.

He has a suit that enhances his strength, speed, and durability.

He has Doc Ock tentacles that also shoot missiles.

And as for defeating Volgin in H2H combat, that fight reeked of PIS.

Solidus wins.

Sado22
...well at least he admits to being an idiot. that alone makes him 10x better than shinlemy. welcome to KMC, leon. don't let Dark-Jaxx and scare you smile

since big boss is my favorite videogame character of all time, i'm inclined to believe that he can beat Solidus. after all he did beat the Cobras.


...then pvssyboy ryu taking blows from gouki is also PISerm

~Sado

Dark-Jaxx
Not really, nothing to disprove it.

Naked Snake at the end of the day is still human, but had mad skillz.

Volgin at the end of the day, is a 7 foot tall dude, who punches through foot thick concrete walls with ease, who tanks RPG rockets, has a charge of 10,000,000 volts running through his body which he can use both for offense and defense, and can even fire friggin rifle rounds from his hands or levitate a dozen of them and fire them.

Oh, and he is a skilled boxer.

Sado22
yeah, and Snake is a clever figher, has a lot of presence of mind and would have killed him in one move ON SCREEN! (when Volgin finds out that he's not Ivan Raikov and tries to shoot him but snake tosses him down with his CQC and could've shot him hadn't been for Boss blindsiding him for the millionth time)

as for the 10 million volts, he was shown on-screen, taking them to his body and face repeatedly before passing out. his damage soak is insane. is it possible? sure, if its in a game where people are making tommy guns out of hornets and an old man who can actually uses photosynthesis then yes *shrug*

~Sado

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Sado22
yeah, and Snake is a clever figher, has a lot of presence of mind and would have killed him in one move ON SCREEN! (when Volgin finds out that he's not Ivan Raikov and tries to shoot him but snake tosses him down with his CQC and could've shot him hadn't been for Boss blindsiding him for the millionth time)

as for the 10 million volts, he was shown on-screen, taking them to his body and face repeatedly before passing out. his damage soak is insane. is it possible? sure, if its in a game where people are making tommy guns out of hornets and an old man who can actually uses photosynthesis then yes *shrug*

~Sado 1. When Volgin underestimated Snake? Maybe. And I say maybe cause Volgin tanks rockets.

2. Okay dude, pay attention to that beating, Volgin was literally pulling his punches. He did not want to kill him. And Snake, despite having good damage soak, does not have better durability than Volgin. Who has much better damage soak than Snake.

Once punch from Volgin should have crushed Snake's bones.

Sado22
when did he tank rockets btw?


we don't know that. from the looks of it, Volgin clearly said he wanted to make him suffer for killing Raikov. i doubt he was pulling his punches. notice also how Sokolov was killed within a few minutes even though he didn't mean to kill him. and its not like the punishment ended there. Volgin beat him to pulp for several mintues, then tied him up, punched him around more and electrocuted him till he peed his pants right. and he wasn't pulling his punches at all. not to mention, pulling his punches hardly means anything when he's got 10million volts in his fists at the time. and also, Ocelot even commends Snake for withstanding Volgin's tortures.
Big Boss=a real man
Volgin=pretty cool...but the bisexual part takes the shine off him


why? he wasn't shown to be meta or something.

~Sado

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Sado22
when did he tank rockets btw?


we don't know that. from the looks of it, Volgin clearly said he wanted to make him suffer for killing Raikov. i doubt he was pulling his punches. notice also how Sokolov was killed within a few minutes even though he didn't mean to kill him. and its not like the punishment ended there. Volgin beat him to pulp for several mintues, then tied him up, punched him around more and electrocuted him till he peed his pants right. and he wasn't pulling his punches at all. not to mention, pulling his punches hardly means anything when he's got 10million volts in his fists at the time. and also, Ocelot even commends Snake for withstanding Volgin's tortures.
Big Boss=a real man
Volgin=pretty cool...but the bisexual part takes the shine off him


why? he wasn't shown to be meta or something.

~Sado 1. I would have to find the bullshit. Pyron Knight posted it.

2. Said he wanted to make him suffer. How is he gonna suffer if he is dead? Sokolov...Is a skinny wimpy scientist. He was LITERALLY pulling his punches. When he punched he pulled back so it wouldn't have full impact. He wasn't pulling them in the torture scene, true. But said torture scene ended with Snake being bloodied, fvcked up, half dead, and missing an eye. He doesn't have to dump all his electricity in every punch.

...I'm bisexual. no expression

3. Ummm...Yeah, he actually WAS.

Sado22
okay.


and how's he gonna make him suffer by pulling his punches too?


at most i'd say he was pulling them a bit.


well, bloodied, f--ked up and half dead still means he soaked the damage and was still able to break out of the jail.
he said his body held that charge. and he said that right before throwing them at Snake *shrug*


well, if it hadn't been for my religion i wouldn't mind a coupla orgies here and there. but for the most part of it, i'm straight.


na-ah

~Sado

Icy Ninja
The tanking rockets comes from the fight with the shagohad because when you finish that fight is shows Snake holding a rpg but for all we know it might not have been a direct hits just the explosion's that might have hurt him

Dark-Jaxx
Actually there was also a scene which shows Snake firing a rocket at him.

I'll respond when I find the proof Sado.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Sado22
and how's he gonna make him suffer by pulling his punches too?


How are you going to make someone suffer by killing them in one blow? no expression

CosmicSurfer
Back to the topic,

All of Big Boss's experience didn't stop him from getting his ass kicked twice by Solid Snake. Are some of you here saying Solid is more skilled than Liquid and Solidus?

Given Solidus's accelerated old age, isn't he the eldest of the three clones?

Dark-Jaxx
Yeah he is.

He also struck me as the most powerful.

Blax_Hydralisk
I was bored and have the flu... so yesterday morning I decided to play through MGS3 and I beat it this morning. smile

Relevance? Not sure... however Volgin was holding back his punches, and he was torturing Snake for a reason. He wanted information. There's like a ten minute interrogation scene where Volgin's just beating the shit out of him and questioning him until Boss states that he isn't going to break...

However that's not damage soak, and it's not a feat in favor of Snake's durability. After the first couple of punches from Volgin Snake was essentially down for the count. At that point Volgin just started pounding him until he shit himself... I suppose that you can count it as a feat due to Snake not dying, but he was unable to fight back, or even muster up a defense at all; so it's unrealistic for Snake to magically be able to defeat Volgin in a fight, especially considering the man has an EM force field like Magneto's that's strong enough to repel RPG rounds, enough strength to punch through reinforced steel walls, and was only killed when he was struck by lightning and pulpified by hundreds of rounds of his own bullets strapped to his chest going off.

There really should be no way for either Big Boss or The Boss to have punked Volgin.

Dark-Jaxx
Exactly.

And don;t forget, the dude had excellent control over his powers.

By wrapping his arms with Shagohod's wires, he could completely control it.

Volgin's shield can tank RPGs, but he can as well.

When punching Snake, like I and Blax said, he was pulling back his punches before they could make full impact, and even then, after the first few, Snake was fvcked up and could not fight back.

Volgin is a character that is so powerful it would be ridiculous for the likes of even Batman to beat him in H2H, yet alone Snake.

And it isn't like Volgin is some big dumb guy either. He was a skilled champion boxer before he joined GRU, he knows how to fight.

leonheartmm
^but thats the thing, in terms of pure strength, gray fox was even MORE powerful than volgine, and snake took him in hand to hand combat. its not about what he SHUD have been capable of doing, the only hting relevant is what he DID do, makinbg up rationalisation like{they werent going all out} is stupid. big boss also defeated gene who was physically PLAYING with null. maybe we shud stop thinking of the snakes as HUMANS. that wud bring things into perspective. {oh btw, volgin PUNCJED straight through the armour of the shagohod which the RPG with a heat warhead cudnt even SCRATCH, let alone dent. and he was defeated by a lightening strike created by the SORROW, probably no ordinary lightening strike}

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by leonheartmm
its not about what he SHUD have been capable of doing, the only hting relevant is what he DID do,

You have no idea what PIS is do you?

By your logic, which sucks btw no offense, Spiderman > beings that can move faster then light, since he did beat Firelord.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Solidus killed MEtal Gear Rays and did so easily.

He has a gun that shreds right through their armor.

He blocked their turret fire with his swords.

He has a suit that enhances his strength, speed, and durability.

He has Doc Ock tentacles that also shoot missiles.

And as for defeating Volgin in H2H combat, that fight reeked of PIS.

Solidus wins.

raiden destroyed metal gears and he did so with reletive ease

he has a gun called the p-90 which every other tengu has{and we have too in mgs4} the gun is less penetrating than even the m-4, its only that solidus knew the weak points of the UNMANNED rays and had the suit to get him to that height{u can do sumthing similar with the metal gears in mgs4}

both raiden{human form} and grayfox cud block machine gun fire with a single sword.

big boss has a cqc enhancing suit as well, but that doesnt matter, since he regularly beats foes with hand to hand TECHNIQUE

the missiles shot can be shot or cut down, and the tentacle were easily avoided by raiden.

it wasnt PIS, it cud only be PIS if it was completely inconsistant with everythin else big boss and humas in MGS series did. we cant compare it with the same standards as marvel or dc, it HAPPENED.accept it.

solidus loses. only solid or possibly liquid cud have beat big boss.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
You have no idea what PIS is do you?

By your logic, which sucks btw no offense, Spiderman > beings that can move faster then light, since he did beat Firelord.

leonheartmm
^i do know what PIS is, but i see manga in which humans unaided can destroy buildings etc with no special powers etc etc. you have to look at the CONTEXT things are used in. would u say that chad using that pole to battle hollows in his human form {before he got any spirit power} is PIS, seeing as he was human then and not capable of a feat like that?! or would you say that kenshin's battles are PIS, because hes only HUMAN{which he is along with every1 else in the series, and it is explicitly stated that there is nuthign SUPERNATURAL about his techniques} . ofcourse not! this isnt the dc or marvel verse. you can only judge PIS by looking at OTHER actions of the characters inside the same MEDIA, and then seeing if the feats are completely inconcistant. if snake was in marvel AND taking on foes like volgin, then itd be PIS, however, when he is inside MGS verse, it isnt PIS. just like kenshin and saitou arent PIS.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by leonheartmm
would u say that chad using that pole to battle hollows in his human form {before he got any spirit power} is PIS, seeing as he was human then and not capable of a feat like that?!

Considering Chad been shown before hand to possess superhuman durability and strength, no. Hitting a hollow with a pole would not be PIS.



"Regular human" is subjective in a non-fictional universe. Regular human in the Kenshin-verse may not be as weak as regular humans are in our own reality.




No, you judge PIS by looking at their feats and their abilities. If Snake has not shown any abilities or has any feats that say he could even stand a chance against Volgin, then it's PIS if he does. Snake was incapacitated by Volgin by only a couple of punches. He then lost an eye. How chould a man who has been trained using two eyes his entire life and had gotten the ever living shit beaten out of him, manage to beat Volgin not even three days later when his depth perception is half as good as he's been used to his entire life, and he's shown zero feats and abilities that put him on Volgin's level aside from getting his ass handed to him on a platter by the Boss and Volgin on multiple occasions?

The answer is simple, because Snake needed to win in order for the plot to continue.

You don't think it should work that way. Too bad. That's how KMC battle rules work.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by leonheartmm
raiden destroyed metal gears and he did so with reletive ease

he has a gun called the p-90 which every other tengu has{and we have too in mgs4} the gun is less penetrating than even the m-4, its only that solidus knew the weak points of the UNMANNED rays and had the suit to get him to that height{u can do sumthing similar with the metal gears in mgs4}

both raiden{human form} and grayfox cud block machine gun fire with a single sword.

big boss has a cqc enhancing suit as well, but that doesnt matter, since he regularly beats foes with hand to hand TECHNIQUE

the missiles shot can be shot or cut down, and the tentacle were easily avoided by raiden.

it wasnt PIS, it cud only be PIS if it was completely inconsistant with everythin else big boss and humas in MGS series did. we cant compare it with the same standards as marvel or dc, it HAPPENED.accept it.

solidus loses. only solid or possibly liquid cud have beat big boss. 1. With rockets. Solidus had a machine gun.

2. Kay...And that feat is far above Big Boss'.

3. I can't believe I actually have to tell you this, but Ray's turrets are>>>standard machine guns.

4. Kay...Solidus' feats are still better.

5. Who is not Big Boss. And Raiden even as a human was agile and quick.

6. ...It IS inconsistant with everything Big Boss has done.

CosmicSurfer
Originally posted by leonheartmm

both raiden{human form} and grayfox cud block machine gun fire with a single sword.

Raiden, in human form, can block a few bullets not multiple gunfire like Grayfox. His reflexes are not in the league of Cyborg Grayfox.



What? How can you say only Liquid and Solid could have beat Big Boss? Do you have proof that they're above Solidus? Solidus is the first and only perfect clone of Big Boss. He has both dominant and recessive genes. His potential is the same as the Big Boss.

What are you even saying?!?!?!?

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^but thats the thing, in terms of pure strength, gray fox was even MORE powerful than volgine, and snake took him in hand to hand combat. its not about what he SHUD have been capable of doing, the only hting relevant is what he DID do, makinbg up rationalisation like{they werent going all out} is stupid. big boss also defeated gene who was physically PLAYING with null. maybe we shud stop thinking of the snakes as HUMANS. that wud bring things into perspective. {oh btw, volgin PUNCJED straight through the armour of the shagohod which the RPG with a heat warhead cudnt even SCRATCH, let alone dent. and he was defeated by a lightening strike created by the SORROW, probably no ordinary lightening strike} And that was PIS too, and I have never seen Gray Fox punch through the hull of a tank that rockets could not dent...

He won cause the plot required it. By feats, Big Boss should NEVER beat Volgin.

The Snakes are humans who can take a decent amount of damage.

Dude, Volgin while pulling his punches had Snake dazed and beat in two blows, how in the FVCK does he beat Volgin going full out?

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
And that was PIS too, and I have never seen Gray Fox punch through the hull of a tank that rockets could not dent...

He won cause the plot required it. By feats, Big Boss should NEVER beat Volgin.

The Snakes are humans who can take a decent amount of damage.

Dude, Volgin while pulling his punches had Snake dazed and beat in two blows, how in the FVCK does he beat Volgin going full out?

sigh, do you even understand REMOTELY why MGS is called a post modernist game?! its because it seemingly MELDS the natural with the supernatural among other things. the boss was human too correct? then how come, when snake shot her, the entire field of white petals around them turns blood red, and why is it that the scars on her body turn into snakes and crawl away???????? oh right i suppose thats PIS too. similarly, how did liquid snake survive the fall from the top of metal gear rex?! thats not humanly POSSIBLE DAMMIT SO IT MUST BE PIS!!!!!
honestly, you just dont GET metalk gear, going by your narrow minded reasoning.

gray fox, in the twin snakes was able to easily cut a huge block of concreate and kick it mid air hurling it at snake{who dodged it}, also, simply by throwing bodies of his victims, he was able to crack the reinforced walls of shadow moses. and he also was able to physically resist the hundreds of tons of rex's weight being STOMPED down on top of him. he probably is physicall stronger than volgin. and it wasnt pis, it was MGS. your just stubborn so you cant get it. you said it yourself, its upto the series to define what HUMANS can do and MGS defines it differently form the real world.

volgin didnt have snake beat, snake CQCd his ass and had him on the ground then the BOSS, came in and beat snake at CQC after which he was dazed and volgin had gotten up and then beat snake for an EXTENDED period of time with many many blows after which snake was still standing before he was hit in the back of the head. {it WASNT two blows, i can give u the video if u want}

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Considering Chad been shown before hand to possess superhuman durability and strength, no. Hitting a hollow with a pole would not be PIS.



"Regular human" is subjective in a non-fictional universe. Regular human in the Kenshin-verse may not be as weak as regular humans are in our own reality.




No, you judge PIS by looking at their feats and their abilities. If Snake has not shown any abilities or has any feats that say he could even stand a chance against Volgin, then it's PIS if he does. Snake was incapacitated by Volgin by only a couple of punches. He then lost an eye. How chould a man who has been trained using two eyes his entire life and had gotten the ever living shit beaten out of him, manage to beat Volgin not even three days later when his depth perception is half as good as he's been used to his entire life, and he's shown zero feats and abilities that put him on Volgin's level aside from getting his ass handed to him on a platter by the Boss and Volgin on multiple occasions?

The answer is simple, because Snake needed to win in order for the plot to continue.

You don't think it should work that way. Too bad. That's how KMC battle rules work.

yes but chad was HUMAN, that alone is reason enough to call it PIS by your criteria.

you said it yourself, regular human is reletive, so go with it,


he wasnt incapacitated by volgin, he best volgin's ass to the ground and THEN was beaten by boss after which it took MANY punches to bring him down. and the eye didnt slow him down, thats how teh story goes, dont like it, take it up with kojima.

the answer is simple, you are imposing real world physics on a video game.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. With rockets. Solidus had a machine gun.

2. Kay...And that feat is far above Big Boss'.

3. I can't believe I actually have to tell you this, but Ray's turrets are>>>standard machine guns.

4. Kay...Solidus' feats are still better.

5. Who is not Big Boss. And Raiden even as a human was agile and quick.

6. ...It IS inconsistant with everything Big Boss has done.

1. solidus also had an exoskeleton

2. wrong

3. news flash, raiden can also block ray's turret fire with his high frequency blade, infact otacon advises him to do just that

4. no they arent

5. raiden is not superior to bog boss or snake for that matter, open your eyes

6. yea yea, like taking down two armies single handedly, desimating the entire cobra unit with its superhumans members, defeating gene, null, ursula and python in combat, yea yea, i can definately see how its inconsistant.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
Raiden, in human form, can block a few bullets not multiple gunfire like Grayfox. His reflexes are not in the league of Cyborg Grayfox.



What? How can you say only Liquid and Solid could have beat Big Boss? Do you have proof that they're above Solidus? Solidus is the first and only perfect clone of Big Boss. He has both dominant and recessive genes. His potential is the same as the Big Boss.

What are you even saying?!?!?!?

raiden in human form can block ray's turrets, try it out, otacon tells him to do that on codec btw. the reflexes of all the cyborg ninjas were only enhanced genetically, the cyborg exoskeleton didnt give frank or olga or raiden any superhuman REFLEXES, only superhuman STRENGTH{which translates into agility/speed as well as durability of the suit itself} their reflexes were ALWAYS their own human ones.

solidus is NOT the perfect clone of big boss, where the hell did u hear that?! solidus is the LEAST perfect clone of big boss, which is shown by his advanced aging which began before liquid or solid{liquid showd a hint of it, by his blonde hair, this was due to advanced aging, his actual hair colour is brown, just like snake} solid snake resembles big boss the most and had the most delayed advent of advanced aging. they are all chromosomally identical to big boss, but possess different alleales.

and if you havent forgotten, solids was defeated by RAIDEN. who is inferior to solid.

Pyron_Knight
Volgin getting hit by the RPG:
IruK8rs23nk

This is from MGS3: Existence which features gameplay added to cutscenes thus making boss battles more "canon' storywise as Snake won't start a fight in a cutscene with a knife and gun and then start using the AK in the actual gameplay battle ya know?

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes but chad was HUMAN, that alone is reason enough to call it PIS by your criteria.

No... no it's not. That doesn't go with my criteria at all.




He surprised Volgin... once. And then he just stood their and started taking the hits to the face like it was nobodies business.

Hardly. Did you notice that Volgin was pulling his punches, and even then Snake was falling to the floor, dazed the entire time, etc? When Volgin finally got bored he hit and dropped him instantly.



I don't have to take anything up with Kojima. This is a debating forum, which means I have the right to tear down Kojima's backwards ass logic as much as I want, piece by piece. smile

KMC rules. You deal with it.



No I'm not, I'm imposing logic into a video game, I.E.: If someone gets there ass handed to them over and over by someone throughout the entire video game, then he shouldn't magically be able to beat said person in their final fight even though he's received no extra training, is missing an eye, and got his ass beat to a pulp not even two days before hand. This is also why I can not stand Bleach, and Kingdom Hearts irritates me.

Sado22
that's 10million volts to the body. not only did he NOT die he was still conscious after several of those projectiles and those punches. maybe he was pulling them, but regardless its not like they didn't hurt given that Volgin's a strong S.O.B. as for not being able to fight back, Boss put snake in a choke hold right before the fight and throughout the whole seen Snake was trying to get his breath back. before he even got up, Volgin started pummelling him WITH electric shocks. getting choked by someone like the boss and then getting electricuted from blows by someone like Volgin explains why he couldn't fight back. he's was choked and then electricuted. electricity has that effect on you...you lose your coordination. heck, i got electricuted a coupla times myself changing bulbs (dumbass, i know) and just a little charge like that had me slightly disoriented. you can imagine what 10million volts would feel like. even in that torture sequence, snake didn't die despite being electricuted with those projectiles of Volgin's...he didn't even pass out.

no matter which we you look at it, it's an endurance feet.


and Snake didn't beat him in a PIS way. he got electricuted and then f--ked by his own bullets. not pis.

~Sado

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Sado22
that's 10million volts to the body.

Can you prove that he was channeling all 10 million volts through Snake's body? Considering he was pulling his punches it'd make sense for Volgin to hold back how much power he was using as well.



That's because Volgin wasn't trying to kill him or drop him. The type of punches he was using were designed to hurt but not do extensive physical damage. If Snake were to lose consciousness instantly or die then he wouldn't feel any more pain, so he wouldn't be able to "suffer". Volgin was drawing it out until he either got bored or thought Snake had had enough for the time being, then threw one full punch that wasn't held back, and dropped him. Granted, by that point Snake was essentially a walking unconscious guy.




Agreed. Snake pissed on himself; they probably hurt like hell.



It only takes a few seconds to get your breath back from a chokehold. If he had the wind knocked out of him then it'd be different, however being a choke hold is just like having a pipe on one minute then off the next. As soon as he was released from the hold a couple breaths would be all that would be necessary. Volgin didn't punch him in the stomach and the chest all that much so he didn't get the wind knocked out of him... Snake would only be out of breath for the first couple of seconds. The rest of the time he was in a daze was because Volgin's falcon paunch was hurting him.



Depends on how much electricity is being used; not the voltage so much as the current (Current is actually what kills you in an electric shock, not the voltage.

heck, i got electricuted a coupla times myself changing bulbs (dumbass, i know)

I feel your pain. I was standing on top of a chair changing a bulb a couple years ago and I got shocked and fell off the chair. haermm




I'm referring to when they fought int he Hangar.

Sado22
well, we know it was enough to make a hardened soldier like Big Boss pee in his pants. so if not 10million, then it was certianly a lot. capiche?


yeah and that big punch in the end had him swing back several feet. i actually cringed when i first saw that one. not tryin to kill him is one thing. hurting him regardless is another. we all know that even half of the amount of punishment that he gave Snake was enough to kill two people: Sokolov and the other dude (granin i think). agreed, that Sokolov was a sissy...but still, he was killed. so was granin. they were normal human beings and they were killed. rest assured, Volgin doesn't know his own strength. he was actually surprised when sokolov died. and notice that Ocelot did commend snake for surviving. it seems only a given that Snake did something that most people couldn't.
i know what you're saying though. i'm just pointing out that its a feat regardless and that idiot Volgin doesnt know his own strength.


agreed. that's the thing that was buggin me as well. right after that chokehold, Snake was disoriented and on all four, till Volgin picked him up. it doesn't make sense. but that's what i'm pointing out to you: that even before Volgin started beating him, Snake was already disoriented and unable to fight back. heck, he couldn't even stand up the moment Boss let him go.


its also the duration. why i'm inclined to believe that it was 10million is because for one we can't be sure how much he used and so its safe to assume that he was atleast using a LOT of it if not all of it. second, he was creating whole projectiles out of it. as an ex-electrical engineer, i can tell ya it takes a lot of voltage to pull that kinda shite off. it literally has to be thousands (if not millions) of volts to project electricity like that. and that goes with Volgin said himself: 10 million volts. even if it was 10,000volts its still an impressive feat given that Volgin hit Snake with those several times for a coupla seconds.


well, we have in-game talks to help us. for one, all frontal attacks on Volgin fail cuz he just deflects them. and we alll know that he turns his back to us a coupla times to recharge. also he shoots bullets at us a coupla times. all these mean, enough time for Snake to blindside him. which happens to be the exact thing Major Zero and SigInt advice as to do. so its not PIS. its Big Boss being the smart S.O.B he is.

~Sado

kamikz
Originally posted by Sado22



Actually, he wasn't. He's in Portable Ops.

He still got beaten down to a pulp though...

Sado22
sokolov is there in portable orps? damn i so wanna play this game!! mad
BIG BOSS! Happy Dance

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by leonheartmm
sigh, do you even understand REMOTELY why MGS is called a post modernist game?! its because it seemingly MELDS the natural with the supernatural among other things. the boss was human too correct? then how come, when snake shot her, the entire field of white petals around them turns blood red, and why is it that the scars on her body turn into snakes and crawl away???????? oh right i suppose thats PIS too. similarly, how did liquid snake survive the fall from the top of metal gear rex?! thats not humanly POSSIBLE DAMMIT SO IT MUST BE PIS!!!!!
honestly, you just dont GET metalk gear, going by your narrow minded reasoning.

gray fox, in the twin snakes was able to easily cut a huge block of concreate and kick it mid air hurling it at snake{who dodged it}, also, simply by throwing bodies of his victims, he was able to crack the reinforced walls of shadow moses. and he also was able to physically resist the hundreds of tons of rex's weight being STOMPED down on top of him. he probably is physicall stronger than volgin. and it wasnt pis, it was MGS. your just stubborn so you cant get it. you said it yourself, its upto the series to define what HUMANS can do and MGS defines it differently form the real world.

volgin didnt have snake beat, snake CQCd his ass and had him on the ground then the BOSS, came in and beat snake at CQC after which he was dazed and volgin had gotten up and then beat snake for an EXTENDED period of time with many many blows after which snake was still standing before he was hit in the back of the head. {it WASNT two blows, i can give u the video if u want} 1. ...So now we are using dramatic visual effects as supernatural feats for the Boss? no expression Shit, if I wanted to, I could blame that shit on The Sorrow. Dude Metal Gear Rex is not that big. It is possible for a peak human like Liquid to survive that fall, and besides, I acknowledged that the Snakes MAY have some degree of enhanced damage soak or durability.

2. Rex is not "hundreds" of tons. And for another thing, why the hell are we giving Big Boss Solid Snake's feats? And nothing there says that Gray Fox can punch as hard as Volgin. With a High Frequency Blade, yeah, he could probably cut through damn near anything. In MGS3...Naked Snake did NOTHING that says he should ever be able to beat Volgin.

3. Snake caught Volgin off guard and took him down and had a gun pointed at him. Then Boss took him down. And dude, Boss did nothing very crippling to Snake. Volgin then got up, and in two hits had Snake fvcked up. And Snake fell down during that beating, Volgin just kept on picking him back up. I have SEEN the video. Snake was fvcked in two or three hits, and was unable to defend himself.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by leonheartmm
1. solidus also had an exoskeleton

2. wrong

3. news flash, raiden can also block ray's turret fire with his high frequency blade, infact otacon advises him to do just that

4. no they arent

5. raiden is not superior to bog boss or snake for that matter, open your eyes

6. yea yea, like taking down two armies single handedly, desimating the entire cobra unit with its superhumans members, defeating gene, null, ursula and python in combat, yea yea, i can definately see how its inconsistant. 1. Yep. Just another advantage he has over Big Boss.

2. Nope.

3. Cool. Good feat for Raiden. Not Big Boss.

4. Yes, they are. Big Boss only beats him in skill.

5. He apparently is in quickness and reflexes, going by those things we call feats.

6. The Cobra Unit's members are nowhere near as powerful as Volgin by feats. The only one who is is Sorrow, and that was after death. Can't comment on Portable Ops, never played, PSP broke.

CosmicSurfer
Originally posted by leonheartmm
raiden in human form can block ray's turrets, try it out, otacon tells him to do that on codec btw. the reflexes of all the cyborg ninjas were only enhanced genetically, the cyborg exoskeleton didnt give frank or olga or raiden any superhuman REFLEXES, only superhuman STRENGTH{which translates into agility/speed as well as durability of the suit itself} their reflexes were ALWAYS their own human ones.

Are you kidding me? You're telling me that Raiden and Olga's human reflexes are superhuman to begin with and have nothing to do with the exosuit. Where in the world did you get this? That is preposterous.

Neither can't *continously* parry bullets without the exosuit. They can at best parry only a few bullets.



Did you even play the game??!?!?! The very first thing they mention about Solidus in both MGS2 and MGS4 is that Solidus is the PERFECT Clone and he has both dominant and recessive genes. Seriously, what game did you play? You don't even have the basics right.

And what proof do you have that Snake is above Raiden?

Pyron_Knight
Yeah Sado...Big Boss himself says Solidus was the perfect clone.

Sado22
i didn't say he wasn't. i KNOW he's the complete clone of Big Boss.

~Sado

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. ...So now we are using dramatic visual effects as supernatural feats for the Boss? no expression Shit, if I wanted to, I could blame that shit on The Sorrow. Dude Metal Gear Rex is not that big. It is possible for a peak human like Liquid to survive that fall, and besides, I acknowledged that the Snakes MAY have some degree of enhanced damage soak or durability.

2. Rex is not "hundreds" of tons. And for another thing, why the hell are we giving Big Boss Solid Snake's feats? And nothing there says that Gray Fox can punch as hard as Volgin. With a High Frequency Blade, yeah, he could probably cut through damn near anything. In MGS3...Naked Snake did NOTHING that says he should ever be able to beat Volgin.

3. Snake caught Volgin off guard and took him down and had a gun pointed at him. Then Boss took him down. And dude, Boss did nothing very crippling to Snake. Volgin then got up, and in two hits had Snake fvcked up. And Snake fell down during that beating, Volgin just kept on picking him back up. I have SEEN the video. Snake was fvcked in two or three hits, and was unable to defend himself.

so a field of flowers turning blood red and the BOSS's own scars turning into three white snakes{which can also be FOUND in the fight, and are named solid. liquid and solidus snake respectively} are just dramatic VISUALS?! lmao, nice way of sidestepping the question. it was clearly supernatural, and the sorrow only appeared to be with the soul of the boss. the scars were hers, the supernatural aspect was HERS. the joy.

metal gear rex isnt BIG?!?!?! you have to climb over 4 stories to get to his HEAD{and not four flours, since each ladder is a helluva lot more than 12 feat high} . and this is when it is CROUCHED DOWN to the max. even liquid said "at this height it will kill even you!" it wasnt the fact that he CUD survive the fall, it was the fact that he CUDNT die unless snake died, it postmodernism, it the marriage of physics and mysticism. you jus cant seem to accept that.

2. now you are really full of CRAP. rex is hundreds upon HUNDREDS of tonns. it the size of a friggin building and a behemoth of thick armour and metal! ur seriosuly crazy if u think it isnt hundreds of tons.

we are not giving big boss snake's feats, we are merely commenting on the series in which snake can take on gray fox in hand to hand and what gray fox was capable of doing, dont try and turn the argument around a senseless bend to obscure it please.

in both mgs 3 and portable ops he has done a lot of things to be able to beat volgin.

3. he didnt catch him off guard,{unless u call the deceptiveness of jujitsu, catching sum1 off guard} volgin had a gun pointed at him. the boss disturbed his composure, and dominance and THEN volgin took him down by hitting him AGAIN and AGAIN, and AGAIN. it wasnt a couple of hits as u say, i can give u the video if u want. and snake only went down after the last one. and then snake wen for some PAYBACK, as he himself said.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Yep. Just another advantage he has over Big Boss.

2. Nope.

3. Cool. Good feat for Raiden. Not Big Boss.

4. Yes, they are. Big Boss only beats him in skill.

5. He apparently is in quickness and reflexes, going by those things we call feats.

6. The Cobra Unit's members are nowhere near as powerful as Volgin by feats. The only one who is is Sorrow, and that was after death. Can't comment on Portable Ops, never played, PSP broke.

1. no he lost with that advantage to raiden, uneless ur suggesting now that a rooki raiden{who was MEANT to be the new rookia as kojima himself said} was in mgs2, greater than the greatest soldier of the 20th century, big boss and solid snake, then i guess u have no argument

2. yep

3. big boss is above raiden in all stats

4. incorrect

5. no he isnt. play the twin snakes, ull find out a thing or two about reflexes of snake. similarly, play portable ops and ull find out a thing or two about the reflexes of big boss againt gene and null. dont reply without playing those games.

6. play portable ops, then comment. the joy is greater than volgin, postmodernism again

leonheartmm
Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
Are you kidding me? You're telling me that Raiden and Olga's human reflexes are superhuman to begin with and have nothing to do with the exosuit. Where in the world did you get this? That is preposterous.

Neither can't *continously* parry bullets without the exosuit. They can at best parry only a few bullets.



Did you even play the game??!?!?! The very first thing they mention about Solidus in both MGS2 and MGS4 is that Solidus is the PERFECT Clone and he has both dominant and recessive genes. Seriously, what game did you play? You don't even have the basics right.

And what proof do you have that Snake is above Raiden?

they are human, and thats what human means in MGS. raiden can block continuous machine gun fire from multiple tengus as well as the turrets fire fro, rays. ALSO, what do u think of SOLIDUS'S reflexes. he obviously is human, even with his suit, he didnt have a helmet on or ANYTHING which cud have enhanced his REFLEXES, and yet he blocked the turret fire continuously. so there goes ur argument. raiden can continuously parry bullets try it out against the tengu's p-90s and metal gear rays.

they never say that solidus is the perfect clone, HE refers to HIMSELF, as the perfec t AMALGAM of solid andf liquid, but you shud know, that having ANY supressive genes, is a bad thing, in this case. liquid wanted solid's purely superior dominant genes{not realising that he had the dominant genes all the time. and was biologically ths SUPERIOR clone} and yet what u learn from the MGS games is that the person themselves play a great part in becoming who they are, which is why solid was able to beat liquid despite his inferior genes, and is called the PERFECT WARRIOR for a reason. solidus WITH an anhanced exoskeleton was BEATEN by the rooki who was chosen to SIMULATE solid snake. raiden WITHOUT any exoskeleton beat solidus in combat. doesnt that tell u sumthing about solidus. doesnt the fact that he was the FIRST one to age prematurely tell u sumthing about solidus, he is the most INFERIOR clone of big boss. unless ur gonna say that a rookie human raiden was above bog boss and solid snake. u have no argument.

Pyron_Knight
*clears throat*
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/guns%2Bpatriots%2Bending/video/x65x3f_mgs4-guns-of-the-patriots-snake-end_videogames

Skip to around 3:20.
Big Boss says plain as effin' day that Solidus was THE "perfect clone.".

Fail. GTFO.



Solidus actually never fought his best in that fight. Notice in the preparation for the fight he did not pump up his muscles to increase strength and speed.

And Kojima said Raiden and Snake are equal.



Show me Big Boss deflecting bullets.



Volgin could pop her head like that flea-ridden mutt popped her cherry when she was a kid.
Yes I am sure she was into doggy style sex...quite literally.



And Solidus was CHOSEN to simulate Big Boss.
What does that tell you?



Are you a fan of forced sterilization?
Because you are a poster child for it.



Mods please ban this liar. This statement he just pulled right out his ass. He kept it right next to his head.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by leonheartmm
1. no he lost with that advantage to raiden, uneless ur suggesting now that a rooki raiden{who was MEANT to be the new rookia as kojima himself said} was in mgs2, greater than the greatest soldier of the 20th century, big boss and solid snake, then i guess u have no argument

2. yep

3. big boss is above raiden in all stats

4. incorrect

5. no he isnt. play the twin snakes, ull find out a thing or two about reflexes of snake. similarly, play portable ops and ull find out a thing or two about the reflexes of big boss againt gene and null. dont reply without playing those games.

6. play portable ops, then comment. the joy is greater than volgin, postmodernism again 1. No. But he has a High Frequency Blade and is a better swordsman. He severed Solidus' spine with it. Sumthin Big Boss can't replicate.

2. Nah.

3. That's bullshit. Show me Big Boss deflecting Machinegun bullets from friggin Metal Gear Ray or sumthin comparable. Goin by that Raiden not only has better reflexes, he is STRONGER. Get your head outta Big Boss' ass, you don't deserve him.

4. No it isn't. What else does Big Boss have him beat in?

5. Or you can post the proof what with the burden of proof being on you.

6. Volgin is strong enough to literally punch her head off, is much more versatile and powerful, and definately more durable.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by leonheartmm
so a field of flowers turning blood red and the BOSS's own scars turning into three white snakes{which can also be FOUND in the fight, and are named solid. liquid and solidus snake respectively} are just dramatic VISUALS?! lmao, nice way of sidestepping the question. it was clearly supernatural, and the sorrow only appeared to be with the soul of the boss. the scars were hers, the supernatural aspect was HERS. the joy.

metal gear rex isnt BIG?!?!?! you have to climb over 4 stories to get to his HEAD{and not four flours, since each ladder is a helluva lot more than 12 feat high} . and this is when it is CROUCHED DOWN to the max. even liquid said "at this height it will kill even you!" it wasnt the fact that he CUD survive the fall, it was the fact that he CUDNT die unless snake died, it postmodernism, it the marriage of physics and mysticism. you jus cant seem to accept that.

2. now you are really full of CRAP. rex is hundreds upon HUNDREDS of tonns. it the size of a friggin building and a behemoth of thick armour and metal! ur seriosuly crazy if u think it isnt hundreds of tons.

we are not giving big boss snake's feats, we are merely commenting on the series in which snake can take on gray fox in hand to hand and what gray fox was capable of doing, dont try and turn the argument around a senseless bend to obscure it please.

in both mgs 3 and portable ops he has done a lot of things to be able to beat volgin.

3. he didnt catch him off guard,{unless u call the deceptiveness of jujitsu, catching sum1 off guard} volgin had a gun pointed at him. the boss disturbed his composure, and dominance and THEN volgin took him down by hitting him AGAIN and AGAIN, and AGAIN. it wasnt a couple of hits as u say, i can give u the video if u want. and snake only went down after the last one. and then snake wen for some PAYBACK, as he himself said. Okay seriously, spellcheck is your fvckin friend, cause I can barely read this shit.

1. Okay. Let's just say Boss did do that. Let's just say. What in the FVCK would that do to help her in a fight!? All sending those snakes out did apparently was friggin give Big Boss some food. Useful fvcking power that is. Oh and btw...The scar turning into a snake, happened AFTER the fight.

So now Liquid cannot die unless Snake does? Bull. Shit. Considering he IS dead. Concerivably, a peak human like Liquid could survive that fall.

2. I'm sorry...But it is just that in MGS4, it didn't look anywhere near that big.

Kay...And based on what they have done, they should not be able to beat powerhouses like Volgin, or Gray Fox for that matter. Though I was originally only arguing Big Boss, YOU brought up the other Snake's, so it would be YOU who is trying to obscure the real argument jack.

Like what?

3. He just shot Sokolov, then right when he pointed it back at Snake, Snake took him down. Volgin had beaten Snake in the first few hits. He was unable to defend himself. That's a TKO in boxing or MMA rules. Oh, and Volgin knocked Snake down at least twice. Get the vid. Prove yourself wrong.

Pyron_Knight
Eh DJ.
You are obviously biased.

You want some of the hot commie electic buttsecks.
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/NikKingMan/vlcsnap-4859220.png

leonheartmm
you DUMASS! he was the perfect clone, PERFECT, in the sense that he had both dominant AND recessive genes and was a perfect COPY. his perfection did not lie in his superior BIOLOGY, just like the perfect copy of a can of trash is another can of trash. as far as PERFORMANCE goes, him having the dominant AND the recessive alleales didnt seem to go well for him, {as opposed to liquid and solid, who both either had all recessive or all dominant} as he was the first one to age prematurely, {which is why hes so old in MGS2} . the next to follow was the mosty genetically SUPERIOR clone of big boss, liquid snake, who only had premature aging as far as his hair were concerned{yes hes not naturally blonde, all snakes are IDENTICAL in looks, it was the premature aging which turned his hair from brown to whispy white}, and the last{and perhaps the most GENETICALLY inferior in the technical sense} was solid snake, with the recessive genes of big boss, but due to the technicalities of cloning, he was the LAST one to age prematurely, hence being the best suited biologically. also, if you were listening to naomi, she explains that genes arent the only thing that define us, its the decisions we make, {which is also why, she says its upto SNAKE, when he dies even when affected by foxdie}. postmodernism again.




now your just plain out LYING. WHAT earthly reason did solidus have to not fight his best?!?!?!? he DID pump his muscles, and he pumps them even MORE, when he forces off his tentacles{which can easily be seen, he forces them off BY pumping his artificial muscles} and he was using his accelarater. he fought his absolute best and he LOST, get over it. i dont ever remember kojima saying that snake and raiden were equal in MGS2.




idiotic debating tactic. show me that you can survive being shot in your ankle! if u cant then i dont beleive its possivle that u can live through it! baka!



lmao, is that why he was scared and hesistant of accusing her? is that also why the boss beat HIS ass to the ground with ease before he inquired{is that some form of judo?}. there was a reason the boss, was the final adversary.



that he was the only SNAKE who had a conflicted father-son relationship with raiden maybe?! or did u forget that? raiden had to kill him just like snake killed big boss. it had nuthing to do with stats.



stfu and answerr the fockin question mate!



naah, u just dont know much about MGS. liquid had grey hair, it was his premature aging that gave him wispy white hair{which make it seem like hes a natural blonde, but he isnt. its the same premature aging as solidus and old snake.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. No. But he has a High Frequency Blade and is a better swordsman. He severed Solidus' spine with it. Sumthin Big Boss can't replicate.

2. Nah.

3. That's bullshit. Show me Big Boss deflecting Machinegun bullets from friggin Metal Gear Ray or sumthin comparable. Goin by that Raiden not only has better reflexes, he is STRONGER. Get your head outta Big Boss' ass, you don't deserve him.

4. No it isn't. What else does Big Boss have him beat in?

5. Or you can post the proof what with the burden of proof being on you.

6. Volgin is strong enough to literally punch her head off, is much more versatile and powerful, and definately more durable.

1. so did solidus. he had two, among other thing. and he still lost. doesnt that tell u sumthing about how it wud go between the real big boss and solidus?

2. incorrect answer

3. idiotic debating tactic. show me you surviving a dunshot to your right hand, otherwise, ill continue to beleive that u cant.
you havent played portable ops, so u wudnt know the kind of reflexes it takes to take on null or gene.

4. big boss has him beat in everything

5. or you can just play portable ops and not depend on me to give you every fight and cutscene in the entire game lazy ass. or you can just watch the cutscenes of the fights in twin snakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haJvYx8sjNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6kLSqIOJ80&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncOTnpDQ1MQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL3Ge4MOIUM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL3Ge4MOIUM&feature=related


{ill be posting more}

6. boss beat volgin's ass to the ground if u remember.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Okay seriously, spellcheck is your fvckin friend, cause I can barely read this shit.

1. Okay. Let's just say Boss did do that. Let's just say. What in the FVCK would that do to help her in a fight!? All sending those snakes out did apparently was friggin give Big Boss some food. Useful fvcking power that is. Oh and btw...The scar turning into a snake, happened AFTER the fight.

So now Liquid cannot die unless Snake does? Bull. Shit. Considering he IS dead. Concerivably, a peak human like Liquid could survive that fall.

2. I'm sorry...But it is just that in MGS4, it didn't look anywhere near that big.

Kay...And based on what they have done, they should not be able to beat powerhouses like Volgin, or Gray Fox for that matter. Though I was originally only arguing Big Boss, YOU brought up the other Snake's, so it would be YOU who is trying to obscure the real argument jack.

Like what?

3. He just shot Sokolov, then right when he pointed it back at Snake, Snake took him down. Volgin had beaten Snake in the first few hits. He was unable to defend himself. That's a TKO in boxing or MMA rules. Oh, and Volgin knocked Snake down at least twice. Get the vid. Prove yourself wrong.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2oZnoxWTqA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPgnie50hd8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udUQ8U1STQQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4CTBIo0Mxk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4CTBIo0Mxk&feature=related

and sum screenshots/cutscenes from portable ops {cannon}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOS6s28wvmg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpU4UqOm3bI&feature=related

basically gene{if u can actually see the gameplay footage} makes vamp look like a baby a baby with toys and ursula is a psychic powerful enough to remotely power and fully function metal gear. and gene even while she is telepathically reading his thoughts, is so strong and hs body so fast, that she stil cudnt stop him from thrusting a knife right into her heart. oh hey, he is also a powerful psychic and the one who was the genetic basis for the GENOME soldiers. big boss, beat his ass. as well as null.{who gene beat with ease}

1. it wasnt an argument about what wud help or not in a fight, it was an argument about the nature of NORMAL HUMANS, and what they can and cant do in the MGSverse and also, about how that pairs them up against confirmed superhumans. and apparently u cant adequately counter, so u go with saying "so what?!" .

yes liquid cud not die unless solid dies, that was the genetic FATE that intertwined them{dont try so hard to make sense of it, postmodernism doesnt always make complete sense, remember, its a video game} he lived till foxdie took him in mgs1, then continued to live on in the arm for ocelot, and then later, in the psche of ocelot, backed ny hynosis and self suggestion, his WILL continued to live. until ocelot's death. in which case, snake with his decision, sort of ESCAPED his destiny in a philosophical manner of speaking.

2. oh my GOD, how much more evidence do i have to give you?! the fall from the head of rex is FATAL, for any human!

based on what ive shown u, u shud understand that they arent humans like US.

3. snake was beaten first by boss, and lost compusure, then he was beaten continuously by volgin and gettigng back up before he was finally beaten down.a nd then later, he BEAT volgin in hand to hand, just like he beat gene. basically, big boss, beats solidus.

Pyron_Knight
Stop embarrassing yourself. You said:
I quote you on the last page:
"they never say that solidus is the perfect clone,"

I proved you completely in the wrong. Just admit it.



No he didn't pump his muscles to start off with. Not once in the preceding cutscene to the fight with Raiden did he do it. As for when he loses the snake-arms...I can't tell there. But I'll check.



And the final adversary of MGS1 was Liquid...does that mean he's tougher than Metal Gear REX?

Anyway, she knoked him down once when he wasn't even expecting it. He then got up and was completely unharmed.
So she did nothing but cheapshot him.



No because we never saw Big Boss use a sword.



You mean this?
QcV0qfjhTnA

A. He wasn't even looking at her.
2. Her takedown did not harm him in the least.

Oh yeah...she owned him with her ineffectual cheapshot.



Vamp effortlessly twirled around automatic gunfire that was directly in front of him. These guns fired at a rate far faster than those used in the 1970s.

leonheartmm
my previous reply never made it so ill try to keep it brief.

perfection in this case means perfection of copyig genes. not perfection of the genes themselves. liquid has the most perfect genes in terms of performance.

he pumped his muscles which forced off his tentacles.

she owned him reguardless, she isnt called the greatest soldier in history for no reason, she wud judo his ass and fill his face with lead before he even got a chance to react.

and WOW, u know NUTHING about guns do u. lemme enlighten you, in terms of practical firearms, there havent been any major breakthroughs for personal firearms since after the second world war. the A-R 15 the precursor of the M-16, has been around since after the second world war, as has been the akm which was th precursor to the A-k 47. both of these weapons{specially the ar-15} had firing rates even higher than todays ak variants and m-16/m-4. the patriot, which is a super compact version of the m-16 has been around since the 60s and packs a bigger punch than today's p-90{the gun solidus and the arsenal tengus and the frogs used} the p-90 as a slower firing rate as well as less bullet pentration or energy as compared to the m-16 or the patriot. it was basically developed as a personal defence weapon to have the advanatges of a submachine gun/machine pistol with the penetrating power of a rifle. in the 1980s. the thing about firing rates is that we havent invented hammer space since the 19050s and as such, firing rates have to be kept low as to not finish the magazine of bullets in a single burst. only good thing about the p-90 is that it has a 50 round magazine, albeit it has the problem of jamming. so what vamp did wasnt any better in the time than in 1960s. and gene was stronger than vamp in every way other than perhaps healing.

CosmicSurfer
Originally posted by leonheartmm
he was the perfect clone, PERFECT, in the sense that he had both dominant AND recessive genes and was a perfect COPY. his perfection did not lie in his superior BIOLOGY, just like the perfect copy of a can of trash is another can of trash. as far as PERFORMANCE goes, him having the dominant AND the recessive alleales didnt seem to go well for him, {as opposed to liquid and solid, who both either had all recessive or all dominant} as he was the first one to age prematurely, {which is why hes so old in MGS2}

So in other words, you're saying that Big Boss is more skilled than Solidus? And you're basing this on the fact that Solidus got his ass kicked by Raiden, right? Well, a rookie Solid Snake beat Big Boss as well. Raiden was *personally* trained by Solidus, saying " I taught him everything he knew, his skills..he learned from me". I'm paraphrasing here, but it's similar. He was the best child soldier in Solidus's boy unit. Raiden's outstanding kill record earned him the names " Jack the Ripper" and "White Devil". Mind you, this is *child* Raiden here. Raiden is far from an average rookie. Hell, he's not even a rookie at all to begin with. Just like how a young Solid Snake was personally trained by Big Boss himself. Put two and two together, Raiden and Solidus is the exact same simulation of a young Solid Snake and Big Boss. This is why Ocelot and the Patriots choose Raiden because of his direct similarity with a young Solid Snake. One was trained by the perfect clone, the other was trained by the original himself.

Sado22
MGS n00b here....when did it say that Solid was trained by Big Boss?

Icy Ninja
In Metal Gear Big Boss was the head of Foxhound which Snake was apart of and in MGS4 Snake told Otacon that he learned CQC from Big Boss personally

Sado22
oh...thanx man.
seems the Boss's love to get their ass handed to them by their favorite disciples laughing

leonheartmm
Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
So in other words, you're saying that Big Boss is more skilled than Solidus? And you're basing this on the fact that Solidus got his ass kicked by Raiden, right? Well, a rookie Solid Snake beat Big Boss as well. Raiden was *personally* trained by Solidus, saying " I taught him everything he knew, his skills..he learned from me". I'm paraphrasing here, but it's similar. He was the best child soldier in Solidus's boy unit. Raiden's outstanding kill record earned him the names " Jack the Ripper" and "White Devil". Mind you, this is *child* Raiden here. Raiden is far from an average rookie. Hell, he's not even a rookie at all to begin with. Just like how a young Solid Snake was personally trained by Big Boss himself. Put two and two together, Raiden and Solidus is the exact same simulation of a young Solid Snake and Big Boss. This is why Ocelot and the Patriots choose Raiden because of his direct similarity with a young Solid Snake. One was trained by the perfect clone, the other was trained by the original himself.

i taught him everything "he" knows. is different from, i taught him everything "i" know. solid snake was not a rookie when he beat big boss. he had already been through the first metal gear's storyline. and had been in many missions beforehand for the special forces. and was already a legendary soldier, second only to gray fox in rank in foxhound. also, you are forgetting that raiden wasnt a clone of the greatest soldier that ever lived, nor was he bred to be the greatest soldier, unlike the les enfante terrible project. snake grew up in an orphanaga and was sooon taken up by the military. the only similarity for which they chose raiden was that he was the only one that qualified for the role of student/master, father/son with solidus snake. it didnt have anything to do with power. also, snake wasnt just trained by big boss, he was trained by many including frank yeager.

big boss is more skilled than solidus, but also, big biss doest suffer from the setbacks of CLONING which made solidus age prematurely.

Superboy Prime
*Sigh*

Superboy Prime
How will Big Boss defeat Solidus when his armor has proven that can bounce off bullets(If he didn't feel the need to deflect them with the dual katanas), when his muscles are enhanced, and he also managed to shrugoff a grenade exploding in front of him--one fired by none other than Solid Snake--, and when Big Boss has absolutely no means of cutting the suit's spine to stop Solidus from controlling it. Also did I mention the MGS database states that Solidus's suit can protect him from ANY and ALL harm. Even if we give Big Boss the HF blade we have never seen him using a sword in combat(as far as I am concerned).

Face the facts...Solidus has everything he needs, and more, to defeat his father.

I used to be all fanboyish and believed Solid Snake could have defeated Solidus if they fought, but after the database came out and explained in detail how Solidus's suit works and how Raiden managed to defeat him it became obvious Solid Snake, and thus Big Boss, since I consider them equals cannot beat him UNLESS they show skills with a blade and of course do get the High-Frequency blade.

Also about Solidus's premature aging...it didn't stop him from ****ing Rays with a P90 in his suit. That is the sole purpose of the suit to enhance his weakened muscles--kindda like Old Snake in MGS4, but alas Solidus being a former president etc. clearly got his hands on a high-tech suit. besides I am not that convinced that he age was that accelerated. He could've just dyed his hair in order to look lik BB. I'll check the MGS database to see f they give some info on this.

leonheartmm
^there is no evidence that he dyed his hair. also he has white hair in mgs1 when he appears as the president in codec. also remember that RAIDEN did not have any sword training before hand either, wierd as it might seem. and again, naked snake has defeated faster, stronger and more durable foes.

Marvelknight
Originally posted by leonheartmm
you DUMASS! he was the perfect clone, PERFECT, in the sense that he had both dominant AND recessive genes and was a perfect COPY. his perfection did not lie in his superior BIOLOGY, just like the perfect copy of a can of trash is another can of trash. as far as PERFORMANCE goes, him having the dominant AND the recessive alleales didnt seem to go well for him, {as opposed to liquid and solid, who both either had all recessive or all dominant} as he was the first one to age prematurely, {which is why hes so old in MGS2} . the next to follow was the mosty genetically SUPERIOR clone of big boss, liquid snake, who only had premature aging as far as his hair were concerned{yes hes not naturally blonde, all snakes are IDENTICAL in looks, it was the premature aging which turned his hair from brown to whispy white}, and the last{and perhaps the most GENETICALLY inferior in the technical sense} was solid snake, with the recessive genes of big boss, but due to the technicalities of cloning, he was the LAST one to age prematurely, hence being the best suited biologically. also, if you were listening to naomi, she explains that genes arent the only thing that define us, its the decisions we make, {which is also why, she says its upto SNAKE, when he dies even when affected by foxdie}. postmodernism again.




now your just plain out LYING. WHAT earthly reason did solidus have to not fight his best?!?!?!? he DID pump his muscles, and he pumps them even MORE, when he forces off his tentacles{which can easily be seen, he forces them off BY pumping his artificial muscles} and he was using his accelarater. he fought his absolute best and he LOST, get over it. i dont ever remember kojima saying that snake and raiden were equal in MGS2.




idiotic debating tactic. show me that you can survive being shot in your ankle! if u cant then i dont beleive its possivle that u can live through it! baka!



lmao, is that why he was scared and hesistant of accusing her? is that also why the boss beat HIS ass to the ground with ease before he inquired{is that some form of judo?}. there was a reason the boss, was the final adversary.



that he was the only SNAKE who had a conflicted father-son relationship with raiden maybe?! or did u forget that? raiden had to kill him just like snake killed big boss. it had nuthing to do with stats.



stfu and answerr the fockin question mate!



naah, u just dont know much about MGS. liquid had grey hair, it was his premature aging that gave him wispy white hair{which make it seem like hes a natural blonde, but he isnt. its the same premature aging as solidus and old snake.

That's not completely true. Liquid's hair is natural blond and so is Snake. most likely because of their mother Eva.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^there is no evidence that he dyed his hair. also he has white hair in mgs1 when he appears as the president in codec. also remember that RAIDEN did not have any sword training before hand either, wierd as it might seem. and again, naked snake has defeated faster, stronger and more durable foes.

Hmm Solidus NEVER appeared in a codec conversation in MGS1. That was the secretary of defense. Only time we hear George Sears aka SOLIDUS SNAKE is at the end of the credits when he talks with Ocelot.

Raiden must have had training in order to use the sword lik he did AND he does use it in the game. What more evidence do we need?

Naked Snake/Big Boss on the other hand has none of those.

The Snakes are full of PIS. They keep on beating opponents they have no chance against.

---

I remember that in the original MGS Solid Snake does cut and dye his hair in order to avoid looking like Liquid Snake.

---

I recommend you give it up.

leonheartmm
liquid's hair isnt natural blonde, its premature aging which makes it blonde. solid's hair are brown. he only cuts them before going to shadow moses. all snake's have physical characteristics identical to big boss, and the same with the hair colour.

and you are using circular reasoning, raiden is seen to be decent with a blade, hence he MUST have had blade training even though nuthing in the game gives positive hints towards it? thats flawed logic.

snakes arent full of PIS. they arent inconcistant enough for PIS.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by leonheartmm
liquid's hair isnt natural blonde, its premature aging which makes it blonde. solid's hair are brown. he only cuts them before going to shadow moses. all snake's have physical characteristics identical to big boss, and the same with the hair colour.

and you are using circular reasoning, raiden is seen to be decent with a blade, hence he MUST have had blade training even though nuthing in the game gives positive hints towards it? thats flawed logic.

snakes arent full of PIS. they arent inconcistant enough for PIS.

Where was it stated that Liquid's natural hair is not blonde and that it turned white because of the aging? Blonde hair is a reccessive trait, my friend. Which is why Liquid Snake has the hair like that.

Flawed? Raiden was trained by Solidus himself when he was a child. And what do we see Solidus wield in Sons of Liberty? Dual Katanas go figure. Also why exactly would Solidus hand Raiden the HF blade if he didn't know Jack would have been able to defend himself with it?

CosmicSurfer
Originally posted by leonheartmm
i taught him everything "he" knows. is different from, i taught him everything "i" know.

That's up to speculation. Can you prove that he didn't teach Raiden everything he(solidus) knew.



I'm not sure about this. But can you please show me some proof.



Snake beats Gray fox's ass like a rented mule even when Fox was wearing an exosuit. Fox isn't above him.



You of all people should know that genes don't mean everything. Besides, Solid Snake has the inferior genes of the Big Boss and he kicked his ass twice. Either way, you're wrong.

CosmicSurfer
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Where was it stated that Liquid's natural hair is not blonde and that it turned white because of the aging? Blonde hair is a reccessive trait, my friend. Which is why Liquid Snake has the hair like that.


In one of the beginning cutscenes in MGS1, Solid originally had long blond hair as well.

Superboy Prime
Which means he dyed his hair. I knew Solid dyed his hair, but he said Liquid's hair was originally brown and then went blonde thanks to the accelerated aging.

He is got it all wrong.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Where was it stated that Liquid's natural hair is not blonde and that it turned white because of the aging? Blonde hair is a reccessive trait, my friend. Which is why Liquid Snake has the hair like that.

Flawed? Raiden was trained by Solidus himself when he was a child. And what do we see Solidus wield in Sons of Liberty? Dual Katanas go figure. Also why exactly would Solidus hand Raiden the HF blade if he didn't know Jack would have been able to defend himself with it?

ahh, but ur forgetting, liquid actually has the DOMINANT genes of big boss while solid has the recessive. so there goes ur entire theory. solid snake in both metal gear one and metal gear two has brown hair, or are you telling me he dyed his hair brown then too??????? heck he didnt even know of liquid snake at that time. and he still didnt know about le enfante terrible or liquid when he went in to shadow mosses. he asked liquid "why the hell do you keep calling me your brother? who are you?! "

as for the high frequency blade, errrr, MAYBE because it was raiden's to BEGIN with, and GW had been monitoring raiden's progress through arsenal gear and the whole plant chapter all the way when he used the blade against the tengus???? again, negetive evidence is not evidence FOR sumthing. the burden of proof is one you.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
In one of the beginning cutscenes in MGS1, Solid originally had long blond hair as well.

it was a black and white STYLISED vhs tape. if you pay attention NO colours are shown other than shades of gray with high contrast
hence snake's hair look white, a bit like the screens of the codec im mgs1. also, snake's moustache and eyebrows and beard as shown in subsequent metal gear games are all brown, unless ofcourse, ur suggesting that he constantly dyes them too...........

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by leonheartmm
ahh, but ur forgetting, liquid actually has the DOMINANT genes of big boss while solid has the recessive. so there goes ur entire theory. solid snake in both metal gear one and metal gear two has brown hair, or are you telling me he dyed his hair brown then too??????? heck he didnt even know of liquid snake at that time. and he still didnt know about le enfante terrible or liquid when he went in to shadow mosses. he asked liquid "why the hell do you keep calling me your brother? who are you?! "

as for the high frequency blade, errrr, MAYBE because it was raiden's to BEGIN with, and GW had been monitoring raiden's progress through arsenal gear and the whole plant chapter all the way when he used the blade against the tengus???? again, negetive evidence is not evidence FOR sumthing. the burden of proof is one you.

Just because someone looks like you does not make him his brother. I suppose that is why Solid Snake was wondering about Liquid's statements.

WTF? Dude go play the game again. Liquid Snake states himself several times he had all recessive genes while Solid Snake had all the dominant genes. That is why he believed Solid Snake was the superior clone, but as it turns out he was wrong and it did not make him the inferior clone.

THe burden of proof is on me? There is nothing to proof. Solidus ass rapes Big Boss and then spits on his working eye.

CosmicSurfer
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Just because someone looks like you does not make him his brother. I suppose that is why Solid Snake was wondering about Liquid's statements.

WTF? Dude go play the game again. Liquid Snake states himself several times he had all recessive genes while Solid Snake had all the dominant genes. That is why he believed Solid Snake was the superior clone, but as it turns out he was wrong and it did not make him the inferior clone.

THe burden of proof is on me? There is nothing to proof. Solidus ass rapes Big Boss and then spits on his working eye.

Right. Liquid lost due to his inferiority complex. He was so obsessed about his false inferiority that it really got to him and cost him the fight. His blind hatred for Snake because Big Boss respected Snake more so than Liquid really got to his head.

CosmicSurfer
Leo, you know that Solid has all the recessive genes of Big Boss, right? This alone is proof that genes aren't the end all be all of who you are and how you'll turn out to be. Since Solid beat Liquid. Even Naomi Hunter mentions this.

Why can't you accept this with Raiden? He is gifted as well because of the reasons I mentioned before. Big Boss isn't the epitome of human perfection out of billions of people. There are others who can match him.

CosmicSurfer
Originally posted by leonheartmm
it was a black and white STYLISED vhs tape. if you pay attention NO colours are shown other than shades of gray with high contrast
hence snake's hair look white, a bit like the screens of the codec im mgs1. also, snake's moustache and eyebrows and beard as shown in subsequent metal gear games are all brown, unless ofcourse, ur suggesting that he constantly dyes them too...........

Greyfox had different looks in both MG1 and MG2. I'm not referring to the MGS series. So the whole hair color situation should be taken with a grain of salt. Since both Solid and Liquid are IDENTICAL twins, not FRATERNAL then it's safe to say they both have blond hair unless you can argue that Liquid dyed his hair blond.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Just because someone looks like you does not make him his brother. I suppose that is why Solid Snake was wondering about Liquid's statements.

WTF? Dude go play the game again. Liquid Snake states himself several times he had all recessive genes while Solid Snake had all the dominant genes. That is why he believed Solid Snake was the superior clone, but as it turns out he was wrong and it did not make him the inferior clone.

THe burden of proof is on me? There is nothing to proof. Solidus ass rapes Big Boss and then spits on his working eye.

lol, have YOU played the mgs games?! it was liquid all ALONG who had the dominant genes, but was lied to about his origins and caught in the inferiority complex, lost to snake.

every one of your arguments have been debunked, which is the reason, that you stopped referring to them one by one, the recessive gene=blonde is the last in the series. since liquid never had the recessive genes, hence he isnt blonde, its premature aging. solidus loses.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
Leo, you know that Solid has all the recessive genes of Big Boss, right? This alone is proof that genes aren't the end all be all of who you are and how you'll turn out to be. Since Solid beat Liquid. Even Naomi Hunter mentions this.

Why can't you accept this with Raiden? He is gifted as well because of the reasons I mentioned before. Big Boss isn't the epitome of human perfection out of billions of people. There are others who can match him.

big boss IS the epitome of human perfection before the twin snakes came along. that is WHY he was called big boss, the greatest soldier that ever lived. look at what he acheived and who he defeated. im not saying that genes are the be all and end all. but im not accepting that raiden is on the level of big boss due to common sense, the thing both have acheived and the amoung of battle expirience the two have. the main reason he was chosen was because he simluated the father son relationship between snake and big boss, and was the ONLY soldier who truly did this{while being capable in his own right} with solidus snake.

and solid and liquid may be identical twins, but there are some inconcistancies there. identical twins have the same alleales, and yet solid has the recessive while liquid has the dominant. maybe im missing sumthing from my genetics lessons or we just have to admit that its one of the VIDEO GAME'S quirks. and again, even leaving out metal gear one and 2 {in which he has brown hair} are you saying that snake in mgs 2 dyed his hair, his eyebws AND his beard in both chapters?????? again thats silly, and the tapes prove nuthing, they are lik negetive photographs, only showing strong constrats of black and white, like the codec in mgs1. it doesnt show blonde hair. only long hair which he cuts short.

and as for snake's rank. in foxhound, he was second to frank yeager{who he learned a lot from along with master miller and big boss} who was the only member to ever receive the codename FOX. ofcourse this was before mgs and in mgs foxhound was disbanded and snake had already left the unit a while ago.

Sado22
you'll go to hell for such blasphemous commments againsts big boss! mad

CosmicSurfer
Originally posted by leonheartmm
but im not accepting that raiden is on the level of big boss due to common sense, the thing both have acheived and the amoung of battle expirience the two have.

So defeating a perfect clone wearing an exosuit that further enhances his already metahuman traits doesn't put him at least on the level of Big Boss? I disagree here.

leonheartmm
^not a perfect clone, he had the most premature aging. also, gene wise, liquid is the most perfect clone. stats wise, solid is. his stats arent exactly above those of gene which big boss also defeated.

and simply, no , it doesnt.

Pyron_Knight
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
*clears throat*
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/guns%2Bpatriots%2Bending/video/x65x3f_mgs4-guns-of-the-patriots-snake-end_videogames

Skip to around 3:20.
Big Boss says plain as effin' day that Solidus was THE "perfect clone.".

So, Leon, you're wrong.

If you continue to deny facts, I'll report you for spamming and trolling.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by leonheartmm
lol, have YOU played the mgs games?! it was liquid all ALONG who had the dominant genes, but was lied to about his origins and caught in the inferiority complex, lost to snake.

every one of your arguments have been debunked, which is the reason, that you stopped referring to them one by one, the recessive gene=blonde is the last in the series. since liquid never had the recessive genes, hence he isnt blonde, its premature aging. solidus loses.

It has never been confirmed that he was in fact lied to about the R genes.. Stop assuming I haven't played the game.

This is all Ocelot said about Liquid's confusion "Until the very end Liquid thought he was the inferior one. Yes I know it takes a well balanced individual such as yourself to rule the world." No where in that statement nor in any other MGS game has it ever been stated they lied to him about having the recessive genes. Stop making up stuff to try and defend your bias.

Solidus does not lose. Big Boss loses plain and square.

leonheartmm
^if you continu to be a jackass and intentionally try to act stupid, youll be ridiculed. READ whats been written. solidus was only the perfect clone in terms of COPYING the genes. he was NOT a collection of the PERFECT genes, he was NOT the one with the most perfect CLONING method and he certainly is NOT the PERFECT fighter. a perfect copy of a garbage can is still another garbage can, its PERFECT in its crappiness. stop being an idiot.

Superboy Prime
Stop insulting people.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
It has never been confirmed that he was in fact lied to about the R genes.. Stop assuming I haven't played the game.

This is all Ocelot said about Liquid's confusion "Until the very end Liquid thought he was the inferior one. Yes I know it takes a well balanced individual such as yourself to rule the world." No where in that statement nor in any other MGS game has it ever been stated they lied to him about having the recessive genes. Stop making up stuff to try and defend your bias.

Solidus does not lose. Big Boss loses plain and square.

yes it has. its common knowledge that the ones who STARTED the genome project, {i.e. big boss and fox along with ocelot, as a way to keep fighting big boss's fight after his old age and death, against zero} know the way went abou doing it. liquid was lied to about his inferior genes, he was infact the one with the superior genes. when u have no argument left, you try and throw a well known fact into confusion saying its never been CONFIRMED. OFCOURSE IT HAS, it was stated plain and simple and it was never contestedm case closed.

solidus loses like a little girl. solid took his eye and jack killed him. inspite of the exoskeleton. what about that is so hard to understand. big boss would defeat him too. he defeated volgin and gene. no prob.

leonheartmm
oh stop it, pyron started out concieted and high and mighty without looking at the argument and the proceed to say that he wud report me for trolling and spamming. none of which is true. he insulted me first, i was just returning the favour.

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes it has. its common knowledge that the ones who STARTED the genome project, {i.e. big boss and fox along with ocelot, as a way to keep fighting big boss's fight after his old age and death, against zero} know the way went abou doing it. liquid was lied to about his inferior genes, he was infact the one with the superior genes. when u have no argument left, you try and throw a well known fact into confusion saying its never been CONFIRMED. OFCOURSE IT HAS, it was stated plain and simple and it was never contestedm case closed.



What? it has not been confirmed that they lied to him about the recessive genes. Show me the evidence AKA FACTS such as direct quotes from the game that explain in detail how Big Boss, Fox and Ocelot and even Zero while you are at it lied to him on purpose. As far as I can tell this has never been stated. Proof is needed when you make such a bold claim.

leonheartmm
^erm, what does ocelot's statement mean to you other than LIQUID WAS LIED TO?! FACT is he WAS the superior one. the statement is PROOF. and look into wiki or any mgs site and ull find the same thing. liquid was the superior clone.

Superboy Prime
I never debated against Liquid being the superior clone. I was arguing about you stating Liquid didn't have the recessive genes.

Things could have gone 1of 2 ways if you ask me:

1. They told him he had the recessive genes and because of that he started to believe he was inferior.
2. They told him he had the recessive genes and said that because of the R genes he was inferior to Solid Snake.

Thing is IMO they lied to him about being inferior, and not about having the recessive genes. One thing does not rule out the other.

CosmicSurfer
Originally posted by leonheartmm
he was NOT a collection of the PERFECT genes, he was NOT the one with the most perfect CLONING method and he certainly is NOT the PERFECT fighter. a perfect copy of a garbage can is still another garbage can, its PERFECT in its crappiness.

What you said doesn't make any sense. Since Solidus is the perfect clone of Big Boss then common sense dictates that he has all the genetic flaws and gifts of the Big Boss. Which means he also has a collection of perfect genes as well included. Hence, being the PERFECT CLONE.

If you're arguing that he's not as *skilled* as Big Boss then I can understand and we can debate this. Other than that, your logic is quite a bit twisted.

Pyron_Knight
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^if you continu to be a jackass and intentionally try to act stupid, youll be ridiculed. READ whats been written. solidus was only the perfect clone in terms of COPYING the genes. he was NOT a collection of the PERFECT genes, he was NOT the one with the most perfect CLONING method and he certainly is NOT the PERFECT fighter. a perfect copy of a garbage can is still another garbage can, its PERFECT in its crappiness. stop being an idiot.

Reported for trolling and flaming.

Peach
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^if you continu to be a jackass and intentionally try to act stupid, youll be ridiculed. READ whats been written. solidus was only the perfect clone in terms of COPYING the genes. he was NOT a collection of the PERFECT genes, he was NOT the one with the most perfect CLONING method and he certainly is NOT the PERFECT fighter. a perfect copy of a garbage can is still another garbage can, its PERFECT in its crappiness. stop being an idiot.

Do not call names and insult people.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
oh stop it, pyron started out concieted and high and mighty without looking at the argument and the proceed to say that he wud report me for trolling and spamming. none of which is true. he insulted me first, i was just returning the favour.

Don't care about your excuses. "Returning the favor" is not acceptable behaviour. Nor do I see any insults from him, anyway.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
I never debated against Liquid being the superior clone. I was arguing about you stating Liquid didn't have the recessive genes.

Things could have gone 1of 2 ways if you ask me:

1. They told him he had the recessive genes and because of that he started to believe he was inferior.
2. They told him he had the recessive genes and said that because of the R genes he was inferior to Solid Snake.

Thing is IMO they lied to him about being inferior, and not about having the recessive genes. One thing does not rule out the other.

erm, you did. you said being blonde is a RECESSIVE trait. you said that his natural hair colour is BLONDE and that nuthing states that its premature aging that made him blonde. ur going back on ur words. they lied to him about having the inferior genes, he states himself " i got all the flawed recessive genes". pretty clear cut if u think about it. liquid doesnt have the recessive genes, he had the dominant genes all along.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
What you said doesn't make any sense. Since Solidus is the perfect clone of Big Boss then common sense dictates that he has all the genetic flaws and gifts of the Big Boss. Which means he also has a collection of perfect genes as well included. Hence, being the PERFECT CLONE.

If you're arguing that he's not as *skilled* as Big Boss then I can understand and we can debate this. Other than that, your logic is quite a bit twisted.

yes, but having the perfect as well as the imperfect on the WHOLE, make u less than perfect, as opposed to one who has JUST the perfect genes. putting ALL things aside, expirience/cloning complications, etc etc. solidus, GENETICALLY, is the second best clone of big boss, ion terms of genetic potential. while liquid is the best. his PERFECTION, lies in being a perfect COPY.

as far as overall performance goes, yes that is what im saying, genetically they are identical. but not only is big boss far more SKILLED, but he also doesnt suffer from the misgivings of premature aging which is a result of flawed CLONING techniques. ofcourse, i am not saying that purely genetically, big boss is superior to solidus, they are the same, but only after barring skill and cloning complications from the equation.

CosmicSurfer
Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes, but having the perfect as well as the imperfect on the WHOLE, make u less than perfect, as opposed to one who has JUST the perfect genes. putting ALL things aside, expirience/cloning complications, etc etc. solidus, GENETICALLY, is the second best clone of big boss, ion terms of genetic potential. while liquid is the best. his PERFECTION, lies in being a perfect COPY.

as far as overall performance goes, yes that is what im saying, genetically they are identical. but not only is big boss far more SKILLED, but he also doesnt suffer from the misgivings of premature aging which is a result of flawed CLONING techniques. ofcourse, i am not saying that purely genetically, big boss is superior to solidus, they are the same, but only after barring skill and cloning complications from the equation.

Even if your right, Liquid still got his ass whipped by Solid, an inferior clone. So genes aren't everything. Solidus, being the Perfect clone or from your perspective, the Perfect carbon copy of the Big Boss has both dominant and recessive genes and he displayed better skills than Liquid as well.

I don't know where you get the idea that Big Boss is FAR more skilled than Big Boss. That's ludicrous because you're saying that Solid is MUCH FAR more skilled than Solidus since Solid beat Big Boss.

At best Solid is equal to Big Boss and seeing what Solidus is capable of I'd put him in the league of Big Boss as well. Since unlike Solid Snake, Solidus has dominant genes and the skills to match.

leonheartmm
^is that why he lost like a ***** to raiden?is that why the plane he was piloting was shot down with ease by raiden and snake? is human raiden the most skilled character in the mgsverse now????????????????? cmon, at least look at the implication of what ur saying.

solid is superior to big boss. for reasons read the thread before and the snake vs big boss thread. it isnt genes, thats what im saying. it is will and skill. as for the second paragraph of ur post, i cant make heads or tails of it.

CosmicSurfer
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^is that why he lost like a ***** to raiden?is that why the plane he was piloting was shot down with ease by raiden and snake? is human raiden the most skilled character in the mgsverse now????????????????? cmon, at least look at the implication of what ur saying.

solid is superior to big boss. for reasons read the thread before and the snake vs big boss thread. it isnt genes, thats what im saying. it is will and skill. as for the second paragraph of ur post, i cant make heads or tails of it.

I made an error typo on the second paragraph. I should of edited it. I meant to say why you think Solid is far more skilled than Big Boss.

He didn't lose like a ***** to Raiden. The only way to kill Solidus was to sever the spine. And Raiden did that. You think Raiden is a little pussy? You should give him far more credit than that. He was trained by Solidus. It shows how skilled he is. *Human* Raiden took out Vamp *twice*. He was skilled enough to shoot Vamp in the head in their very first encounter when Raiden fought Fortune even when she had her special shield on. Vamp was right next to Fortune and Raiden made a perfect head shot.

Raiden has more than proven to be on Solid's level. I don't know why you don't see this.

CosmicSurfer
My mistake, Raiden's first headshot of Vamp was accidental because of Fortune's field. So disregard that. But he did beat Vamp twice afterwards.

Superboy Prime
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Kazenji
Originally posted by CosmicSurfer

Raiden has more than proven to be on Solid's level. I don't know why you don't see this.

its because Leonheart has played the super dooper fun version of MGS2 shifty

Superboy Prime
Originally posted by Kazenji
its because Leonheart has played the super dooper fun version of MGS2 shifty

Oh you mean the version where Snake fails to save Raiden from Vamp and as a result you play the rest of the Plant chapter with Snake since Raiden's dead. oh yeah that version is the BEST GAME EVAH. It came out for the Xenolution 2.5.

Pyron_Knight
They don't got that in Australia yet.
The next gen console for them (scheduled debut 2010) is the Sega Dreamcast.

Kazenji
And i hear America still has'nt got the Atari 2600 i hear that comes out in 2015

leonheartmm
so raiden>solidus>big boss >_ solid snake.

am i HEARING this right?! lmao, u people r nuts.

MadMel
Originally posted by Kazenji
And i hear America still has'nt got the Atari 2600 i hear that comes out in 2015
oh snap!!
go aussie big grin

Marvelknight
Originally posted by leonheartmm
so raiden>solidus>big boss >_ solid snake.

am i HEARING this right?! lmao, u people r nuts.
I agree. Raiden or Solidus couldn't take Solid Snake. Solid Snake>>> Big Boss.

Superboy Prime
Since when does equal mean superior?

Sado22
Solid doesn't>>>Big Boss
he only beat an old Big Boss. Kojima already said that Solid and Naked Snake are equals.

leonheartmm
silly people i type >_ which means greater than or equal to. in reality, snake has done more in his old age than big boss did, battle wise. so age isnt a limiting factor.

Superboy Prime
Sorry for not keeping up with your symbols. superdur

Spidervlad
You can't really tell...
Their clones after all. But I would think that Big Boss would have the upper hand in this one because he has more experience, I assume. Depending on Solidus during which part of his life.

But then again, Solidus has the suit that gives him more muscle.

Superboy Prime
Not only does the suit give him more strength, it boosts his speed and makes him imprevious to harm. Only reason Raiden won is because of the HF blade slicing the spine, and thus making Solidus lose control of his suit. How will Big Boss manage that without the blade since he doesn't have it for this match up. In this match up Solidus has the clear advantage. Now if only Leonheart or any BB supporters made another thread with BB having the HF blade it would be a whole different story.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by leonheartmm
so raiden>solidus>big boss >_ solid snake.

am i HEARING this right?! lmao, u people r nuts. To bad A>B>C logic isn't actually a logical way to debate.

Raiden beat Solidus because he had the speed(going by feats, he has better reflexes), and the equipment to fight Solidus. Also, was Raiden not also in an enhancing suit?

Big Boss and Solid Snake are equals.

By feats, Solidus could take both.

leonheartmm
^and what feats does solidus have other than destroying a few rays WITH his exoskeleton which let him target their weakspot when being controlled by A.I. raiden did the same, and that was without an enhancement suit. the only thing the skull suit gives raiden is a small layer of artificial muscles. these do not enhance his strength but only GRAB any blade like object trying tp penetrate, so solidus cudnt simply slice him in two in one shot.

and it doesnt matter WHY solidus lost, fact is, he lost. the same wud have happened if raiden targetted the upper half of his head which was also not covered by the suit.

again, if you wanna go by feats, i have already given you gameplay footage of the twin snakes which easily puts his solid snake's reflexes above solidus and raiden, if you wanna discoutn that then there is nuthign to discuss. i have also given some footage of gene, who big boss took and won against. heck even null{aka non cyborg frank yeager} cud block bullets with his machette, and big boss still bested him. by feats solidus cant even take liquid or ocelot.

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