Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The joker about whom i refer is the antagonist from the move :The Dark Knight versus hannibal lecter.

both are clever and have taken many lives in thier respective fields. given thier twisted nature i have 3 levels i want to measure from each of them.


1) who is more morally depraved?

2) who is more clever/ ingenious?

3) who wins in a fight ( weapons tactics and all)?

1 Joker
2 A tough call
3 Joker

1. Joker.

2. Probably Joker.

3. Well Hannibal is a strong swordsman, but with his age and the fact that he hasn't practiced in years he may not beat Joker...I really don't know.

Joker takes 1 and 3. The second one I see as a stalemate. I think it would depend on who can get into each other's head more.

1. Joker.
2. Lecter. Lecter shows some nice foresight just like Joker but he's also a doctor...so I give the edge to Lecter.
3. Joker.

I find cannibalism more "morally depraved". Joker just kills people with more "normal" ways. Eating someone else is just more f'ed up IMO.

BTW, he also cut open someone's skull while leaving them alive in Hannibal.

Originally posted by Placidity
I find cannibalism more "morally depraved". Joker just kills people with more "normal" ways. Eating someone else is just more f'ed up IMO.

BTW, he also cut open someone's skull while leaving them alive in Hannibal.

Actually, I believe the Joker can do all acts that Hannibal does... but won't because it won't be 'fun' or 'funny'.

Originally posted by dadudemon
2. Lecter. Lecter shows some nice foresight just like Joker but he's also a doctor...so I give the edge to Lecter. Like how he foresaw being handcuffed to a fridge along with the chick(can't remember name)? Or was cutting off his own hand part of his plan?

1) I will say Hannibal, because he eats people. I wouldn't consider liking fine wine and Beethoven redeeming qualities for someone like that. At least The Joker has no alter-ego: he's not a mild-mannered shrink by day and a nutcase by night. He's always the Joker.

2)That's a hard call. I will say the Joker. He reminds me of the Emperor from Star Wars; he's a master manipulator of people and at highly complex schemes. Hannibal is more lowkey, and avoids the limelight, and he likes it that way. They're both highly intelligent like most serial killers, but I think Hannibal is the smarter of the two. The Joker always has to be a showman and I think that compromises some of his craftiness.

3) Whether a knife fight or a gun fight, I think the Joker would win. Hannibal is a predator and a torturer, but he's no warrior.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
1) I will say Hannibal, because he eats people. I wouldn't consider liking fine wine and Beethoven redeeming qualities for someone like that. At least The Joker has no alter-ego: he's not a mild-mannered shrink by day and a nutcase by night. He's always the Joker.

2)That's a hard call. I will say the Joker. He reminds me of the Emperor from Star Wars; he's a master manipulator of people and at highly complex schemes. Hannibal is more lowkey, and avoids the limelight, and he likes it that way. They're both highly intelligent like most serial killers, but I think Hannibal is the smarter of the two. The Joker always has to be a showman and I think that compromises some of his craftiness.

3) Whether a knife fight or a gun fight, I think the Joker would win. Hannibal is a predator and a torturer, but he's no warrior.

Well said.

1) Hannibal - only slightly, he's a cannibal and he feeds someone sauteed pieces of their own brain. Gets people to mangle themselves etc.
2) Hannibal - very similar to the joker, but he seems to be better at mind-****ing, again, if only slightly. Not solid on this one though.
3) Joker - he has shown better fighting prowess, from the pencil scene to taking the cop in the interrogation cell hostage.

Edit: That would be an interesting scene, having the Batman go to Hannibal for information, only to be psychoanalized and mind-****ed by him.

*Hannibal voice* "Was your father never there Batman, a shadow of a figure in your life? Did he sodomize you? Do tell."

Due to his work background, I can agree Hannibal is a little better at getting in your head, but in terms of planning or scheming I would say Joker is better.

But the question was who is more morally depraved. Lecter has morals and standards, despite being a cannibal. The Joker has none. So while we can all agree that eating another human being's body parts is more repungnant to us than anything we've seen the Joker do, I think the overall scale is still tipped in the Joker's favor. That is a reasoned opinion, not just me being an annoying fan of the Dark Knight.

Joker
Dunno
Joker

Originally posted by Devil King
But the question was who is more morally depraved. Lecter has morals and standards, despite being a cannibal. The Joker has none. So while we can all agree that eating another human being's body parts is more repungnant to us than anything we've seen the Joker do, I think the overall scale is still tipped in the Joker's favor. That is a reasoned opinion, not just me being an annoying fan of the Dark Knight.

You do bring up a valid point with Lector having morals and standards and I'm inclined to agree with you now. But how do we know that that Joker absolutely doesn't have his own code, as Hannibal?

Granted, he had no qualms over blowing up a boat filled with men, women and children, but are you certain he wouldn't help an elderly lady cross the street or give a homeless man a dollar?

Originally posted by Robtard
but are you certain he wouldn't help an elderly lady cross the street or give a homeless man a dollar?

No. But there's a very good chance the dollar will explode and the old lady will end up in front of a speeding car.

Originally posted by Devil King
No. But there's a very good chance the dollar will explode and the old lady will end up in front of a speeding car.

That's pure unfiltered evil.

I kinda wanna give Hannibal the first one, but the Joker has no rules...then again Hannibal eats people so I'd say for the first one it's a tie but for the second and third Joker all the way.

Unlike the Joker, Hannibal can be sympathic. He has a whole lot more good sides than the Joker. To the Joker, everything is a game. Even death.

1. Joker
2. Depends
3. Joker

I think he'd have the time of his life if he died and went to Hell.

Originally posted by Da Joker
I think he'd have the time of his life if he died and went to Hell.

That wouldnt really be considered the time of his "life" though.

He'd probably end up tricking the devil and taking over hell. Lolz.

Anyway, for the sake of this thread, I'm not too sure of who should win 1 and 2. Both the Joker and Lecter are incredibly intelligent, twisted lunatics- but the Joker at least seems more outright insane, without any sort of morals or 'rules'. He sees death- even his own- as a complete joke. That being said, though, Hannibal's actions (the whole brain scene, for instance) are considerably more grotesque than the Joker's own, who simply kills people in 'normal' ways and occasionally mutilates them to a minor degree (the smiles). So, I can't really tell. Intelligence? Well, the Joker seems craftier and has a penchant for superior plans and unpredictability, but Hannibal is a doctor with plenty of psychological knowledge. Tough, once again.

Fight ability, though, it's the Joker for the win. He displayed overall superior fighting prowess, both with guns and with knives. He wins here.

1 Joker
2 Lecter
3 Lecter

I think hannable would win he is bad but just like the Joker he thinks ahead of time but hannable knows your body parts

It's Hannibal, for one, and he's no where near as vile as the Joker, at least in my eyes. Both are incredibly smart, but the Joker is a whole level ahead of Hannibal.

Originally posted by Da Joker
It's Hannibal, for one, and he's no where near as vile as the Joker, at least in my eyes. Both are incredibly smart, but the Joker is a whole level ahead of Hannibal.

Are you serious? Did you watch the same movies? Shooting people, cutting cheeks and laying out plans is more vile than eating a human being and his serial killings?

Hannibal ate from a man while he was still living and awake. He opened the head of another and ate pieces of the brain while the man was living and awake. Joker may be twisted, but Hannibal sure is too.

What makes me not 100% certain about the nomination of Hannibal is the fact that he has a couple of good sides. Unlike Joker, who sees everything as a "joke" and kills for the sake of killing. Hannibal's murders often serve a higher purpose (Like eating, or something that benefit himself)

Originally posted by Scythe
Are you serious? Did you watch the same movies? Shooting people, cutting cheeks and laying out plans is more vile than eating a human being and his serial killings?

Damn, I forgot this was movie Joker...

Both are incredibly vile, but I think the Joker still has an edge. That's not saying Hannibal is to be taken lightly.

1. Joker

2. Joker

3. Joker

Originally posted by Da Joker
Both are incredibly vile, but I think the Joker still has an edge.

Sigh...

Joker has nothing on Lecter. Nothing he's done can be compared to what Hannibal has done, but that's okay, you're forgiven.

Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
Hannibal ate from a man while he was still living and awake. He opened the head of another and ate pieces of the brain while the man was living and awake. Joker may be twisted, but Hannibal sure is too.

What makes me not 100% certain about the nomination of Hannibal is the fact that he has a couple of good sides. Unlike Joker, who sees everything as a "joke" and kills for the sake of killing. Hannibal's murders often serve a higher purpose (Like eating, or something that benefit himself)

Joker has no good side.

That's why I'd give him the 1st. Sure, Hannibal may be a cannibal, but being a cannibal alone is not something I find enough a reason for him to top Joker. With the exception of cannibalism, there isnt anything Hannibal does that Joker wouldnt be able to do.

Hannibal is smart, but Joker has done some pretty incredible things trough the years . That's why I'd give him the 2nd.

If Joker would get a chance to prepare for the battle, the 3rd would be his easily. However, Hannibal has shown incredible strength and willpower. I wouldnt be surprised if he could kick Joker's ass if no preparation was given. Then again, Joker has been able to hold his own against Batman, and has shown some pretty skillful fighting moves.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Joker has had 60 years of comic history, while Lecter has had a few movies. Right, Lector is just much more villainous than the Joker.

Originally posted by Da Joker
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Joker has had 60 years of comic history, while Lecter has had a few movies. Right, Lector is just much more villainous than the Joker.

Still movie Joker...

Who I've admitted isn't exactly as vile as Lecter, but is almost up there.

Aww, Bardock took the fun out of it for me, but might as well.

Originally posted by Da Joker
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Joker has had 60 years of comic history, while Lecter has had a few movies. Right, Lector is just much more villainous than the Joker.

You're failing to understand that this is movie Joker we're talking about, comics have nothing to do in the movie Vs. Forums, not that hard to comprehend, and it's okay, you are corrected.

Originally posted by Da Joker
Who I've admitted isn't exactly as vile as Lecter, but is almost up there.

Actually, Joker has no remorse whatsoever in the movies, Lecter has stated that he kills only those he views as unpleasant, though, those in more vile ways than Joker did as of yet. So, Joker wins that for me.

I actually didn't know that. It's been a while since I've seen some of the films. That's for that bit of info.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
1 Joker
2 Lecter
3 Lecter

I can see why you would give Lecter the 'smarts' contests, but the actual fighting one? What makes you say that?

What with Lecter being an old man, I doubt he can beat Joker in a fight, who was able to physically overpower a fairly large cop and hold hostage.

If this was young Lecter with a sword, the fight might be different.

The Joker isn't anywhere near as smart.

Of course he would beat Lecter in a fight though.

Off topic: Lecter doesn't just have "a few movies". He was first brought to life in 1981. The books came before the movies.

-AC

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I can see why you would give Lecter the 'smarts' contests, but the actual fighting one? What makes you say that?

I was assuming that this was a bout between the two during their Prime. We have never seen the Joker display any kind of exceptional fighting ability or knowledge. Hannibal Rising did a lot to portray Hannibal as a calm calculating killer that knows how to wield a sword. Hannibal is also extensively trained in the physiology of humans. He has often applied his awareness of the human body to his killings and torturings. combined with that knowledge and his skill with a sword, i think it would be a devastating combo.

The Joker has displayed the ability to actually defeat people (TRAINED people) in straight-up combat; remember the cop in the interrogation scene? The Joker pisses him off, and the next time we see the cop, he has his arm twisted behind his back and a knife to his throat. He also quickly and easily (displaying amazing reflexes) twisted a mobster's hand behind his back and slammed him, so the pencil on the table jams percisely into his eye and into his skull.

He also held off Batman in one on one combat. I'd love to see Hannibal, with any sort of advantage, do that.

Originally posted by Robtard
*Hannibal voice* "Was your father never there Batman, a shadow of a figure in your life? Did he sodomize you? Do tell."

Freakin' brilliant. I was thinking along similar lines, except your quote hit the nail right on the head.

thumbsup

ragesRemorse...

Agree. A LOT.

Batman would just punch him. >_>

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Batman would just punch him. >_>

And punch him hard.

Why is Lecter automatically smarter than Joker?

In terms of knowledge, sure, Lecter may be superior.

But in terms of planning, and scheming, Joker was superior IMO.

Due to that I say they are about equal.

Just about.

What about physically? Can someone tell me if Hannibal is just as much of a fighter as TDK Joker? It's been a little bit since I've watched the movies.

Old Hannibal? No, I doubt it.

Young Hannibal however was a competant swordsman and was physically fairly fit.

Oh yeah, I know, I saw that movie last year and remember it, but I was referring to the older Hannibal. Young Hannibal, in a fist fight, would give the Joker a run for his money, but the Joker still has a small advantage since he doesn't give a damn about pain. Old Hannibal has probably lost most of those skills and would lose quicker than his younger self.

Sound about right?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon


He also held off Batman in one on one combat. I'd love to see Hannibal, with any sort of advantage, do that.

im sure hannibal lecter could

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
im sure hannibal lecter could

I'm not.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The Joker isn't anywhere near as smart.

-AC

He may or may not be. But I believe that was not the question. Lecter hasn't really shown the elaborate planning and plotting that Joker has.

Plus, the Joker overpowered Batman at the end. The only reason Batsy was able to hit him with the batarangs and toss him over was because he was distracted. But before then he was holding that ledge or whatever down on him with ease.

There are many forms of being smart. There are many ways to think and use intelligence. While Lecter has the lead in some ways, the Joker has the lead in other ways. My point: They are both smart in different ways.

Nicely put.

But yeah. Young Lecter could, I'm sure, give TDK Joker an excellent fight and possibly win somewhere between 4 to 5 times out of 10, but old Lecter doesn't stand a chance in hell.

Originally posted by Bardock42
He may or may not be. But I believe that was not the question. Lecter hasn't really shown the elaborate planning and plotting that Joker has.

"Do I look like a guy with a plan?".

He doesn't plan things, he just happens to make the best of whatever chaos he brings about. Organised chaos is not like having a plan.

-AC

His actions betray his words though. One example would be the boat scene, he planned on one boat blowing away the other, he also planned ahead by carrying a detonator that would blow both in case they didn't. That wasn't random.

Yeah, the Joker was pretty much lying to Harvey about that, or so it would seem...

Or maybe we just shouldn't try to understand him. He's wierd.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Do I look like a guy with a plan?".

He doesn't plan things, he just happens to make the best of whatever chaos he brings about. Organised chaos is not like having a plan.

-AC

His plan was to convert Harvey. He was pushing his buttons. Joker do have a plan, he just does not admit it to the person involved in it.