John Mclane vs the Joker

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Prime#
Scenario #1: The Joker and his henchmen take the Nakatomi building hostage, Mclane is the only one to avoid them undetected. Basically the same Scenario as Die Hard 1



Scenario #2: Mclane has been transfered to Gotham at the point in TDK where the Joker's attacks had piqued(where he has the henchmen and the hostages switched and awaits a confrontation on the top floor). In this scenario the GCPD send Mclane in by himself to deal with them.

Dark-Jaxx
Mclane loses both.

Joker is smarter than Mclane by a good amount.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Mclane loses both.

Joker is smarter than Mclane by a good amount.

So was Hans, and Hans' brother... and the guy in Live Free or Die Hard... and probably the guy who was the bad guy the second one...

Mclane has made a career (and millions of dollars at the box office) of killing people who are smarter then him...

My opinions of the scenarios,

1. Mclane makes his way through the tons of Henchmen, eventually finding himself one on one with the Joker himself.

... John shoots him and his dogs.

"Would you like to see a pencil tr- AGH MY JUGULAR!"

no expression

Same thing happens in the second scenario.

Placidity
Joker

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
So was Hans, and Hans' brother... and the guy in Live Free or Die Hard... and probably the guy who was the bad guy the second one...

Mclane has made a career (and millions of dollars at the box office) of killing people who are smarter then him...

My opinions of the scenarios,

1. Mclane makes his way through the tons of Henchmen, eventually finding himself one on one with the Joker himself.

... John shoots him and his dogs.

"Would you like to see a pencil tr- AGH MY JUGULAR!"

no expression

Same thing happens in the second scenario. Resourcefulness and firepower win out?

ragesRemorse
John Mclane kills jets with trucks. I would say that his resourcefulness and ingenuity is superior to the Joker's. I wouldn't even say that the Joker is more intelligent than McClane. I'm not even convinced that the joker is all that intelligent. He is cunning, for sure, but he is really just smarter than the dumbasses around him. The reason he is such a formidable foe to batman is because he knows batman so well.

John McClane has the last laugh in this one. He does what it takes to get the job done. The only chance the joker has at winning in scenario one is if he goes fcuking nutty (like he always does) and just blows the building to shit at the beginning of the movie wink

Obsidian Fury
Since John McLane has no idea what he's getting himself into, he will die by Joker's hands easily. McLane is probably expecting one of his common nutcases, and not the emperor of nutcases himself stick out tongue

Placidity
Well, I would say Joker is "prep-god" in TDK. In the whole movie, almost everything that happened, he planned or had numerous other plans should something go wrong. He even almost had Batman at the end (which is total BS IMO, Batman almost losing to those stupid dogs).

Obsidian Fury
Originally posted by Placidity
Well, I would say Joker is "prep-god" in TDK. In the whole movie, almost everything that happened, he planned or had numerous other plans should something go wrong. He even almost had Batman at the end (which is total BS IMO, Batman almost losing to those stupid dogs).

The Joker has prep in both these scenarios, if you read the first post trough smile

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
So was Hans, and Hans' brother... and the guy in Live Free or Die Hard... and probably the guy who was the bad guy the second one...

Mclane has made a career (and millions of dollars at the box office) of killing people who are smarter then him...

My opinions of the scenarios,

1. Mclane makes his way through the tons of Henchmen, eventually finding himself one on one with the Joker himself.

... John shoots him and his dogs.

"Would you like to see a pencil tr- AGH MY JUGULAR!"

no expression

Same thing happens in the second scenario. And Joker is smarter than all of them too. no expression

Joker, despite his claims of the contrary, was a master planner, he planned on Harvey Dent going insane, guess what? He did.

No one, not even Batman, outplanned the Joker.

John shoots him and his dogs? I'm sorry sir, but that bullshit laughing stunt would not work on a Joker trying to kill someone. As a matter of fact, Joker probably just escapes and blows up the building with everyone in it. Mclane won't have the luxury of bad guys who are only sticking around there so they can rob the bank, Joker doesn't give two shits about money.

Second scenario goes somewhat the same.

Obsidian Fury
Not to mention, John McLane, in all of his movies, in the end looks like a torn, worn, ancient rag. I mean .... it's a wonder the man can even walk after his movies (Yeah, I know, in the 3rd he didnt take all that much beating).

And in all of those movies, compared to the Joker, all his opponents were amateurs.

No, John aint getting out of this one alive.

AngryManatee
John launches car filled with gasoline off median, car flies up and crashes into an airliner filled with terrorists, which subsequently crashes onto joker. Joker fails.

Obsidian Fury
Originally posted by AngryManatee
John launches car filled with gasoline off median, car flies up and crashes into an airliner filled with terrorists, which subsequently crashes onto joker. Joker fails.

The only problem with your absolutely flawless plan would be that John wouldnt do that. It's a hostage situation, remember?

AngryManatee
Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
The only problem with your absolutely flawless plan would be that John wouldnt do that. It's a hostage situation, remember?

He does it at just the right angle so that it only picks off the joker.

Obsidian Fury
And the Joker will place himself by the window and just signal the airplane to hit the spot with those blinking stuff.

AngryManatee
Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
And the Joker will place himself by the window and just signal the airplane to hit the spot with those blinking stuff.

Not required. The plane hits the joker because that's what John Mclane set out to do.

Obsidian Fury
With nothing but a car as a starter.

Ahsoka Tano
I haven't seen the Dark Knight yet, unfortunately.

No matter what though, McClane is the most bad ass man on the face of the earth.

Some how some way, yippie ki ya. McClane ftw.

Placidity
^ Thats not very convincing lol.

Obsidian Fury
Originally posted by Ahsoka Tano
I haven't seen the Dark Knight yet, unfortunately.

No matter what though, McClane is the most bad ass man on the face of the earth.

Some how some way, yippie ki ya. McClane ftw.

Being badass will do you no good when your dead.

Blax_Hydralisk
You can say that for pretty much anything. confused

Robtard
McClane would shoot his ass dead in either scenario and he wouldn't hesitate. The Joker would go into a monologue, John would shoot.

Obsidian Fury
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
You can say that for pretty much anything. confused

Indeed stick out tongue

Originally posted by Robtard
McClane would shoot his ass dead in either scenario and he wouldn't hesitate. The Joker would go into a monologue, John would shoot.

And the hostages go boom. If you have seen TDK, you'd know that Joker wouldnt hesitate to strap himself all over with explosives like he did when he went to the crime lords.

Robtard
Originally posted by Obsidian Fury


And the hostages go boom. If you have seen TDK, you'd know that Joker wouldnt hesitate to strap himself all over with explosives like he did when he went to the crime lords.

John would just shoot, he wouldn't bother talking with the Joke, while the Joker being the Joker loves to chat anf toy with his prey.

If anything, John would point his gun, the Joker would open his coat displaying his grenade collection and begin his usual chats and games, but instead of an opponent who is hesitant to kill, John just shoots and then says some cheesy one-liner.

Obsidian Fury
Originally posted by Robtard
John would just shoot, he wouldn't bother talking with the Joke, while the Joker being the Joker loves to chat anf toy with his prey.

If anything, John would point his gun, the Joker would open his coat displaying his grenade collection and begin his usual chats and games, but instead of an opponent who is hesitant to kill, John just shoots and then says some cheesy one-liner.

So you havent seen TDK.

Robtard
Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
So you havent seen TDK.

Obviosuly, as I explained the grenades and the Joker's actions, pay attention. Seen it twice.

Obsidian Fury
You remember the string between his hand and the explosives then? Everything could just as well go boom if John shoots Joker.

Robtard
Possible, but unlikely. Grenade pins need a decent tug to dislodge, it's there as a safety precaution. It's unlikely his hand would pull them out once John shoots him dead, which John wouldn't hesitate to do. You'd know this if you watched Die Hard.

Obsidian Fury
I've watched them. I also know that John wouldnt risk the life of all those hostages for something that could work. He aint that type of risktaker.

Blax_Hydralisk
erm... no. The string isn't a deadman's switch like in Hancock. Joker has to actively pull the string in order for the grenades to explode, they don't explode if he dies. Hence the point of it being on a string.

If John were to shoot the Joker in either the face or even the chest, the Joker would be dead so fast that he wouldn't have time to pull the string.

And you're speculating about weither or not he wouldn't hesitate to pull the string. The Joker knew that the mob bosses wouldn't shoot him if they saw the string, because of movie PIS. John however knows better... and you'd have to prove that the Joker really would be that willing to give up his life.

The only reason that the Hostage negotiation thing ever works in real lfie is because the criminal hols the Hostage in front of him, like a human shield. The police hesitate to shoot because they might risk hitting the hostage, not because they're afraid the Criminal will shoot first, which he won't.

Placidity
Why wouldn't he, he's crazy. He was begging for a bullet from Dent, obviously it was part of his plan, but the chances of him getting killed would've been high.

Obsidian Fury
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
erm... no. The string isn't a deadman's switch like in Hancock. Joker has to actively pull the string in order for the grenades to explode, they don't explode if he dies. Hence the point of it being on a string.

If John were to shoot the Joker in either the face or even the chest, the Joker would be dead so fast that he wouldn't have time to pull the string.

And you're speculating about weither or not he wouldn't hesitate to pull the string. The Joker knew that the mob bosses wouldn't shoot him if they saw the string, because of movie PIS. John however knows better... and you'd have to prove that the Joker really would be that willing to give up his life.

The only reason that the Hostage negotiation thing ever works in real lfie is because the criminal hols the Hostage in front of him, like a human shield. The police hesitate to shoot because they might risk hitting the hostage, not because they're afraid the Criminal will shoot first, which he won't.

I cant remember once in the movie where Joker cared about surviving. He'd be ready to give his life if he knew it would end anyway. If he werent willing to give up his life, half of the things he did, he wouldnt have done.

Robtard
Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
I've watched them. I also know that John wouldnt risk the life of all those hostages for something that could work. He aint that type of risktaker.

So what's his other options? Leave the Joker alone and hope he doesn't kill any of them? Try and negotiate with an insane clown?

John makes his way in, while killing and avoiding the thugs, as he did with the terrorist/mercs, spots the Joker and either outright shoots him or faces him for a bit and then shoots him, I'd expect the former.

Another thing of note, those terrorist/mercs John killed were all highly trained men, Joker's street thugs wouldn't be that hard by comparision.

Robtard
Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
I cant remember once in the movie where Joker cared about surviving. He'd be ready to give his life if he knew it would end anyway. If he werent willing to give up his life, half of the things he did, he wouldnt have done.

Not once? How about the scene with the mob boses, he knew those men would not throw their lives away. If he didn't care, he would have gone in without the grenades as a deterrent.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Placidity
Why wouldn't he, he's crazy. He was begging for a bullet from Dent, obviously it was part of his plan, but the chances of him getting killed would've been high.



Because he was plaing it off. Almost everything in the movie had gone exactly as he ahd planend. Everyone acted exactly the way he planned for them to do. If Joker had been dealing with some unknown person whom he hadn't gotten a chance to study or play mind games with, it's a high possibility that he wouldn't act the way he did.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Robtard
Not once? How about the scene with the mob boses, he knew those men would not throw their lives away. If he didn't care, he would have gone in without the grenades as a deterrent.

Exactly. If he "didn't care about his life" he wouldn't have done that, or used Rachel as a distraction.

Obsidian Fury
Originally posted by Robtard
So what's his other options? Leave the Joker alone and hope he doesn't kill any of them? Try and negotiate with an insane clown?

John makes his way in, while killing and avoiding the thugs, as he did with the terrorist/mercs, spots the Joker and either outright shoots him or faces him for a bit and then shoots him, I'd expect the former.

Another thing of note, those terrorist/mercs John killed were all highly trained men, Joker's street thugs wouldn't be that hard by comparision.

1. He doesnt have much options. That's the thing with the Joker and always has been. He doesnt play fair.

2. And risk to set of the explosives? John may be trigger-happy, but he care about human lives. Joker has him cornered in both scenarios. The chance that John gets out alive is very low. And for the record, the chance that Joker gets out alive is rather low as well. I believe that in 9/10 scenarios, John dies. In 5-6/10 scenarios, Joker dies.

3. A bullet by a trained soldier is as deadly as a bullet by a clown. You have to agree that those highly trained men John faced didnt exactly have much accuracy. John had loads of luck. And for being highly trained, they werent very bright. I'm not saying that Joker's thugs would be any better, because they certainly wouldnt, but a lot of John's survival troughout the movies was luck and/or mercy/stupidity from his advesarys.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Obsidian Fury


2. And risk to set of the explosives? John may be trigger-happy, but he care about human lives. Joker has him cornered in both scenarios. The chance that John gets out alive is very low. And for the record, the chance that Joker gets out alive is rather low as well. I believe that in 9/10 scenarios, John dies. In 5-6/10 scenarios, Joker dies.


And you're assuming that the Joker will be able to physically pull a string before a bullet can leave the chamber of a gun and go through his skull based on... what? Does the Joker have superhuman reflexes and speed now?

Bullets move faster then the Jokers hand. If John pulls the trigger of his gun Joker will be dead before he can pull the trigger. There is nothing that can refute this point. There is no possible way that the Joker can pull the trigger before John's bullets reach him unless the Joker pulls the string first, which would make holding hostages pointless in the first place.

Obsidian Fury
Originally posted by Robtard
Not once? How about the scene with the mob boses, he knew those men would not throw their lives away. If he didn't care, he would have gone in without the grenades as a deterrent.

He, like you said, had a plan. He brought the explosives because it served his plan to walk out of there alive, but he wouldnt have gone there in the first place if he cared about living.

It's true that he predicted how everyone would act, but predicting isnt a 100% certainty. If he werent prepared to die, he wouldnt have handed Dent the gun. He wouldnt have pushed every button Batman had. He wouldnt have selected such a cornered location for his final move. He wouldnt have made that phonecall, since he was inside reach of the blastzone.

It's true that he avoided dying, but he did show that he was ready to die. Just because he was manipulative, doesnt mean he was absoultely certain things would go his way.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Obsidian Fury


It's true that he predicted how everyone would act, but predicting isnt a 100% certainty.

Maybe if you're insane it is.



So wait...

Yeah he did show that he took steps to not die. But... that doesn't mean he didn't want to die?

Obsidian Fury
Wanting to die and being ready to die is two widely different things.

Dark-Jaxx
I guess when Joker was falling off the building about to die he was actually crying instead of laughing. He doesn't care whether he lives or dies.

One of his plans for Batman was that he wanted him to kill someone, even if it was Joker himself it didn't matter to him.

Joker is smarter than anyone Mclane has ever faced. Joker if he want to will be out of the building as it explodes with Mclane in it.

And why is everyone acting like Joker doesn't have a friggin gun? He wielded many of them in the movies.

demoneyeslaharl
Scenario one, as long as Mclane doesn't show himself or make himself known, ever, he has a very good chance in taking down the Joker... but once the Joker adds him as a factor, then Mclane's chances drop fast.

Second scenario... Joker will just own him.

Darth Martin
Originally posted by Ahsoka Tano
I haven't seen the Dark Knight yet, unfortunately.

No matter what though, McClane is the most bad ass man on the face of the earth.

Some how some way, yippie ki ya. McClane ftw. Haven't you heard the news? Ledger's Joker is the most bad*** man on the planet now. wink

Blax_Hydralisk
Yeah, until the movie goes to DVD, at which point no one will give two shits. haermm

Darth Martin
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Yeah, until the movie goes to DVD, at which point no one will give two shits. haermm Then everyone will buy the dvd. How will they not give? confused

willofthewisp
Scenario 1: Even if Joker also has a gun, McClane could take him. In TDK, there were plenty of opportunities for someone to kill Joker, namely Batman, but he didn't because that goes against his moral code. John McClane wouldn't mind killing in such a case.

Scenario 2: Joker rules.

Mairuzu
I'd say its a tough choice

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by willofthewisp
Scenario 1: Even if Joker also has a gun, McClane could take him. In TDK, there were plenty of opportunities for someone to kill Joker, namely Batman, but he didn't because that goes against his moral code. John McClane wouldn't mind killing in such a case.

Why do people assume Joker will treat everyone like he treats Batman? There is only one reason why Joker eggs Batman into killing him... because he knows Batman cannot. That's how the Joker views Batman... and the biggest joke for him to give to the Bats is to push him over the edge to make him break his rule.

If it were any other man... Joker would use other mind games or just forgo the whole thing, and just kill them. Like how he was going to kill the Mayor... or Gamble... or even those cops... hell, even his own henchmen.

Have people forgotten the other things he did?

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by demoneyeslaharl
. Like how he was going to kill the Mayor... or Gamble... or even those cops... hell, even his own henchmen.

Have people forgotten the other things he did?


Interestingly enough, none of those people were really in the middle of a combat situation when he did it. They were all in a false sense of security. The Mayor and the Commissioner were surrounded by their own men. Gamble was in his own HQ, chilling and playing a game of pool, surrounded by his body guards. Mcclane will be alone, and he is far smarter and more resourceful then any of the people Joker killed.

Robtard
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Interestingly enough, none of those people were really in the middle of a combat situation when he did it. They were all in a false sense of security. The Mayor and the Commissioner were surrounded by their own men. Gamble was in his own HQ, chilling and playing a game of pool, surrounded by his body guards. Mcclane will be alone, and he is far smarter and more resourceful then any of the people Joker killed.

Did you mention again that John won't hesitate to shoot? There ass-clowns don't seem to get it.

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Interestingly enough, none of those people were really in the middle of a combat situation when he did it. They were all in a false sense of security. The Mayor and the Commissioner were surrounded by their own men. Gamble was in his own HQ, chilling and playing a game of pool, surrounded by his body guards. Mcclane will be alone, and he is far smarter and more resourceful then any of the people Joker killed.

If its intelligence alone, Joker takes the cake. Unless Mclane can be as smart and as cunning as Batman, then he will find himself playing Joker's game, or dancing in his tune. I am willing to bet that those 'false sense of security' was the Joker's ploy too...

Like I said... if Joker doesn't factor in Mclane... Mr. Badass will kill him. But if the Joker does... then Mclane's chances drop fast.

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by Robtard
Did you mention again that John won't hesitate to shoot? There ass-clowns don't seem to get it.

I do get it. But will the Joker give him the opportunity for him to do so? Check what he did at the movies... he was never really found! He was always either flushed out in the open (being in the hunter mode), or if he was in the open, its because he had the upper hand (hostage situation, which is there in scenario one). Plus, he has hostages... roll eyes (sarcastic) I'm sure the Joker would ignore that little tidbit if he knew there was a cop gunning after him.

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by demoneyeslaharl
I do get it. But will the Joker give him the opportunity for him to do so? Check what he did at the movies... he was never really found! He was always either flushed out in the open (being in the hunter mode), or if he was in the open, its because he had the upper hand (hostage situation, which is there in scenario one). Plus, he has hostages... roll eyes (sarcastic) I'm sure the Joker would ignore that little tidbit if he knew there was a cop gunning after him.

No, there were uncountable moments when he could have been shot.

Robtard
Oh, he'll try and play some little mind game because he has hostages and he'll except "the cop" to play along. Little does the Joker know, John shoots first and asks questions later.

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
No, there were uncountable moments when he could have been shot.

I only saw two isntances. One where his fellow Bank robber was putting a gun at his face... and the next was Gordon putting a shotgun behind his head.

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by demoneyeslaharl
I only saw two isntances. One where his fellow Bank robber was putting a gun at his face... and the next was Gordon putting a shotgun behind his head.

Did you need to see the guns to be aware of the opportunity?

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by Robtard
Oh know, he'll try and play some little mind game because he has hostages and he'll except "the cop" to play along. Little does the Joker know, John shoots first and asks questions later.

If he wants to play mind-games. Seriously... the only real mind games he played at the movie was for Batman and Dent... and it was only because he wanted to corrupt them both.

The only other person he played mind games too... also a cop, btw, was that idiot in the interrogation room. Also Gordon, as well.

Again... I cannot stress this enough. If Joker doesn't factor in Mclane... he will die. Shot. Or blown to pieces. If he does... Mclane's chances drop fast. Really fast.

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Did you need to see the guns to be aware of the opportunity?

Then you list the opportunities.

chillmeistergen
All the times he was just strolling about completely alone and unarmed. I know he can do impressive things with a pencil and that, but first you have to let him - that's not something that Mclane would do.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by demoneyeslaharl
If its intelligence alone, Joker takes the cake. Unless Mclane can be as smart and as cunning as Batman, then he will find himself playing Joker's game, or dancing in his tune. I am willing to bet that those 'false sense of security' was the Joker's ploy too...

Like I said... if Joker doesn't factor in Mclane... Mr. Badass will kill him. But if the Joker does... then Mclane's chances drop fast.


Okay. smile

Give us a scenario for how the Joker uses his omg furze smartz to take Mcclane out. Simply being "smart" doesn't cut it.

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
All the times he was just strolling about completely alone and unarmed. I know he can do impressive things with a pencil and that, but first you have to let him - that's not something that Mclane would do.


I know Mclane can do impressive things with a gun... but you have to let him. Will Joker even give him that opprotunity?

See? Pointless. The point you gave was too vague. You forget the context of the situations... hence why I am asking you to list all the opprotunities you can think off so we can discuss them.

chillmeistergen
Originally posted by demoneyeslaharl
I know Mclane can do impressive things with a gun... but you have to let him. Will Joker even give him that opprotunity?

See? Pointless. The point you gave was too vague. You forget the context of the situations... hence why I am asking you to list all the opprotunities you can think off so we can discuss them.

Pulling a trigger is quite a bit easier. How would Joker not give him that opportunity? His way of confronting people is by playing mind games, face to face. I wouldn't consider it out of the question that if he did have his fancy array of explosives and a piece of string, that Mclane would simply shoot the hand holding the string, then shoot him the face immediately afterwards.

I can't really remember specific instances in their utmost detail. However, I remember thinking that the police had plenty of opportunities to kill him.

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Okay. smile

Give us a scenario for how the Joker uses his omg furze smartz to take Mcclane out. Simply being "smart" doesn't cut it.

Alright, since situation one was about hostages, in an enclosed space, I will strictly stick to that because that is the only time Mclane has a chance.

Joker has used a lot of diversionary tactics, and a lot of Dilemma situations. Hostages dressed as perps, perps dressed as hostages. If he was willing to put a lot of bombs in two ferries, why not wire the whole building, in fact. Dead man's trigger can used to his advantage a lot here. Shoot the Joker, blow the hostages. Or for fun, blow where the Joker thinks Mclane is if he wasn't in the mood for playing.

Mclane, as trigger happy as he is... is still a cop. Hell, for fun, let's put his ex-wife or his daughter, just to increase his chances of survival. He will not ever try to harm the hostages. Ever. That can be used to exploit in a lot of ways.

The Joker is also resourceful... not only using people as henchmen but also dogs. I doubt Mclane can survive three of them coming at him... never saw him with an odd affinity with animals (unlike Riggs).

Mclane will need to shoot him by surprise. When he's not prepared. That's how he can win against him in situation one.

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Pulling a trigger is quite a bit easier. How would Joker not give him that opportunity? His way of confronting people is by playing mind games, face to face. I wouldn't consider it out of the question that if he did have his fancy array of explosives and a piece of string, that Mclane would simply shoot the hand holding the string, then shoot him the face immediately afterwards.

I can't really remember specific instances in their utmost detail. However, I remember thinking that the police had plenty of opportunities to kill him.

Now, that's a good example. The mob meeting. If those people had guns, maybe Joker would not have survived. I remmeber they gave them away to start the meeting (they entered through a metal detector). Joker knew that too well... hence why he used a string... and why Gamble's henchmen were not pulling any Steel, but were about to grapple him.


There is always a context in the film. That is why when Joker was either on the open, he was very sure he was not going to get shot.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Okay. smile

Give us a scenario for how the Joker uses his omg furze smartz to take Mcclane out. Simply being "smart" doesn't cut it. Walks out of the building as he blows it up. He won't stick around so he can rob the bank, Joker couldn't give two shits about money or other people, including his men.

Or maybe Joker goes into disguise as a hostage. then when Mclane finds said hostages, pretends to be one and stabs Mclane in the back of the head or blows out his brains?

Or how about Joker has his thugs just all jump him at the same time? ONE thug was beating Mclane's ass in the first movie, Mclane is by no means some super uber skilled fighter on Batman's level, not even close.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Walks out of the building as he blows it up. He won't stick around so he can rob the bank, Joker couldn't give two shits about money or other people, including his men.

That defeats the point of taking the building hostage. And as soon as he walks out he'll get mowed down by Police. It's all against the scenario itself.



And the other hostages are going to be... sitting there, watching? They won't speak, or make a gesture? Not how it works in the real world.



Yes, they're all going to jump him in a giant sky skysraper. Obviously.

Dude...

And John Mcclane has something that's way better then Batman's fighting skills. He has a gun, and he's not afraid to use it.

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Okay. smile

Give us a scenario for how the Joker uses his omg furze smartz to take Mcclane out. Simply being "smart" doesn't cut it.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Walks out of the building as he blows it up. He won't stick around so he can rob the bank, Joker couldn't give two shits about money or other people, including his men.

Or maybe Joker goes into disguise as a hostage. then when Mclane finds said hostages, pretends to be one and stabs Mclane in the back of the head or blows out his brains?

Or how about Joker has his thugs just all jump him at the same time? ONE thug was beating Mclane's ass in the first movie, Mclane is by no means some super uber skilled fighter on Batman's level, not even close.

confused Or... that... yeah.

laughing out loud Yeah... totally forgot that Joker is not really motivated by anything normal... and that is his biggest edge. Happy Dance Missed it.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
That defeats the point of taking the building hostage. And as soon as he walks out he'll get mowed down by Police. It's all against the scenario itself.



And the other hostages are going to be... sitting there, watching? They won't speak, or make a gesture? Not how it works in the real world.



Yes, they're all going to jump him in a giant sky skysraper. Obviously.

Dude...

And John Mcclane has something that's way better then Batman's fighting skills. He has a gun, and he's not afraid to use it. 1. Hans had the building hostage so he could rob it then blow it up, and was going to escape on an ambulance. Why couldn't Joker do the same thing? Only he would not need to wait to rob the bank, leave on the ambulance then blow up the building. Mclane is dead, and that is well within Joker's character to do.

2. Considering Joker could order his guards to shoot down any hostage who speaks, and the fact that they would not know Joker is among them? And Mclane doesn't have Godlike reaction time, if someone yells out as Joker pulls out a gun, Mclane won't react in time to save his brains from being blown out. Joker was able to hide among those police officers before, why not now?

3. Considering Hans and his men did it before, why not? And Joker won't be as merciful in an actual confrontation with Mclane as he was with Batman, he knows Batman will not kill him, he would be well aware that Mclane would have no problem doing it.

O RLY? The thugs Batman fights have guns and are not afraid to use them, and Batman beats the shit out of them daily.

And you forget another thing, the presence of Mclane's wife.

Joker took Rachel hostage in the movie, he would gladly take someone hostage in this situation as well.

Mclane has never faced someone as smart, insane, or morally deprived as Joker.

ragesRemorse
How has McCalen never faced anyone has insane, intelligent or morally deprived as the joker? Have you not seen the Die Hard movie's? All of the Villains in the Die hard movie's are morally deprived and insane, yet incredibly intelligent. jeremy Irons held the City of New York under lock without them even knowing by whom.

McClane stears a flaming truck that is falling from an airplane into the Joker before he has a chance to make any insidious plans...,and you know McClane can do it.

Dark-Jaxx
He's gonna aquire a truck in a Skyscraper?

Lol.

ragesRemorse
Yeah, dude, of course.

Dark-Jaxx
Joker makes the pencil disappear in the truck. Truck blows up.

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
How has McCalen never faced anyone has insane, intelligent or morally deprived as the joker? Have you not seen the Die Hard movie's? All of the Villains in the Die hard movie's are morally deprived and insane, yet incredibly intelligent.

wink They wish they were as intelligent or as interesting as the Joker. stick out tongue

Robtard
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Yeah, until the movie goes to DVD, at which point no one will give two shits. haermm

Hopefully the nonsense about the Joker beating opponents that are far superior will die with it too.

Like I said, TDK is starting to entertain more out of the theatre than in.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
Hopefully the nonsense about the Joker beating opponents that are far superior will die with it too. Too bad Mclane isn't one of those opponents.

Blax_Hydralisk
Yes he is. Times infinity.

Mairuzu
Knowing joker, he'd take mclanes family hostage

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Too bad Mclane isn't one of those opponents.

He's taken on a multitude of highly trained and heavily armed terrorist, he clearly has the upper hand when it comes to a gun battle in regards to the Joker. He's also out-done Hans Gruber, who was a mastermind.

Joker's only change would be dumb luck, like John slipping on a banana peel.

Mairuzu
and then after that... who the hell knows

But seriously.. the only reason joker holds the upperhand to batman is because batman doesnt want to kill him




simple as that

Blax_Hydralisk
You don't understand Robtard.

'HE'S T3H JOKAARRR!! HE''S ULTIMO-INTELLECTUALZZ!!!!"

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
He's taken on a multitude of highly trained and heavily armed terrorist, he clearly has the upper hand when it comes to a gun battle in regards to the Joker. He's also out-done Hans Gruber, who was a mastermind.

Joker's only change would be dumb luck, like John slipping on a banana peel. Kay. Sure, he can beat Joker in a one on one gunfight.

He out did Hans Gruber, who is not as smart as Joker, as good of a fighter as Joker, and is held back by his greed, unlike Joker. If Hans wanted to, he could have left the building on the ambulance and had it blown up, but no, Hans wanted the money. It is easily in Joker's character to do that.

No one has yet to explain how Mclane would counter that.

Wanna know why?

He couldn't.

But no, people will continue to grasp onto the humorous idea that because Mclane is a "ZOMG Ub3r B@d@55!!!" he wins.

Blax_Hydralisk
Why is Hans, and his brother, not as smart as Joker?

And your "leaving in an ambulance" plan would result in him getting shot. erm

Your not making any sense. Not every one is as ungodly stupid ****ing retarded as Gotham's police force is. Your basing Joker's intelligence on him outsmarting a bunch of idiots who were afraid to kill him or were surrounded by their own men.. the Joker has yet to straight up beat someone who wasn't being held back for whatever reason or wasn't in a false sense of security. When Batman finally went after him and was sick of his shit, Joker went down... in half an hour.

AngryManatee
Originally posted by AngryManatee
John launches car filled with gasoline off median, car flies up and crashes into an airliner filled with terrorists, which subsequently crashes onto joker. Joker fails.

Originally posted by AngryManatee
He does it at just the right angle so that it only picks off the joker.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by AngryManatee


That's the way to do it.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Why is Hans, and his brother, not as smart as Joker?

And your "leaving in an ambulance" plan would result in him getting shot. erm

Your not making any sense. Not every one is as ungodly stupid ****ing retarded as Gotham's police force is. 1. Gee, I don't know, maybe cause he doesn't have any planning feats that even begin to rival Joker's? I mean Jesus Christ, the guy was killed cause Mclane made him laugh, and Mclane outsmarted him by giving him an unloaded gun in the first movie. Hans never showed himself to be as smart as Joker. In the final scene, Joker would have had MClane's ex as a hostage, as in holding her to him with a gun to her head, not to the fvckin side. Joker would have shot the fvck out of Mclane. Joker knows Mclane will kill someone unlike Batman.

Oh, and also humor me, wtf would happen to Mclane if Joker sent three dogs at Mclane? Don't just say he would shoot them all, he's not that fast.

Oh, and even though it would likely never come to this, if Joker got into a fistfight with Mclane, Joker would win. smile

2. Really? Cause that was that "ZOMGENIUS!!!" Han's plan all along, escaping in a fvcking ambulance. But it would have worked with Hans though, right? roll eyes (sarcastic)

3. They sure as hell were in Diehard.

AngryManatee
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
That's the way to do it.

Exactly, anyone who says otherwise just doesn't understand John's powers over anything affected by hollywood physics.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Your basing Joker's intelligence on him outsmarting a bunch of idiots who were afraid to kill him or were surrounded by their own men.. the Joker has yet to straight up beat someone who wasn't being held back for whatever reason or wasn't in a false sense of security. When Batman finally went after him and was sick of his shit, Joker went down... in half an hour. I'm basing his intelligence on being so far ahead of everyone else(including BAtman) in planning.

BAtman>>>Mclane in nearly all areas, the only thing that Mclane has over BAtman is he is willing to kill, but that is it.

Oh, and Joker had Batman pinned down and at his mercy. But he never wanted to kill Batman by his own words. Joker beat the shit out of Batman, who is a far superior fighter than Mclane btw.

And I LOVE how you say Joker's men can't jump him cause he is in a fvcking skyscraper, but Mclane can somehow aquire a friggin truck in the skysraper and run Joker down with it. Humorous, really.

Darth Exodus
John gets to the top and gets torn to pieces by 3 very rabid dogs and jokers scary kitchen knife. Seriously, hes got to shoot them all before:

A: The Joker shots him, or
B: The Dogs get to him

And even then, John's shot-first approach would end up with him shooting the dressed-up hostages himself, Joker still wins. Morally at least.

But the Joker would be able to come up with a master plan pretty quick. I like the one with him dressing as hostage. It's just like the Joker.

Robtard
Because three dogs and a clown with a potato peeler are more dangerous to gun wielding super-cop than a bunch of highly trained mercenary/terrorist.

John would take them all out, with or without shoes.

Master Crimzon
The Joker WTFpwns John. Because:

1. Heath Ledger >>>>>>> Bruce Willis

2. TDK is the best movie EVA!!11!! (Seriously, though, it WAS awesome)

3. The Joker can makes pencils disappear.

That being said, now, for a more serious explanation:

1)What would prevent Johnny from going berserk in the building, murdering all of Mr. J's henchmen, and when finally facing him, the Joker just shoots him? Seriously, though, the Joker isn't a moron. He could even hide and attack him, leave just his crazy dogs there, or something along the lines of that. Even if McLane DOES manage to shoot them all, say the Joker jumps him and slashes him into small pieces, or just beats him up? He did that to Batman, who is a far, far better hand-to-hand fighter than John.

2) Same result as above, if John even makes it past the loads of henchmen.

Robtard
John was able to survive a building full of merc-terrorists actively trying to find and kill him, they couldn't, he stayed hidden and slowly picked them off. With him on the hunt in this scenario, the Joker and probably a sizable amount of his thugs will be shot dead.

John is also a far superior shot than the Joker. The Joker would need to get close to stab or slash him with a knife, John would shoot long before that happened.

Sorry, the only way the Joker survives is because people are just to stupid to shoot him when given the chance. John doesn't have that "moral" problem.

Edit: When did the Joker "beat up" Batman?

Master Crimzon
1. Considering there won't be a sizable difference between them, and the Joker is certainly not a bad shot, what difference does that make? And besides, knowing the Joker's level of intelligence, he more than likely won't just stand there and wait for John to shoot him. He could hide, he could, as already said, disguise himself as a hostage, and he could surprise him with his nice doggies.

2. In that case, I don't suppose the mercs were dressed up as hostages? Even if he hides and 'slowly picks them off', shooting one of the supposed henchmen will alert the real ones to his presence. He will, at least, have a load of difficulty getting past them. He might even get injured, or sumthin' along the lines of that.

3. I don't think I need to argue with you on the fact that Joker will pwn John in hand-to-hand/knife combat, do I?

Robtard
How do you know the Joker isn't a bad shot? Either way, John is highly skilled with guns; shooting bad guys is what he's about. Hans Gruber was also a mastermind, yet John survived his machinations.

Yea, they'll be alerted just like the merc-terrorist in the Die Hard movies, he still managed to evade them and come back killing. Not sure why you think Joker's street thugs would be more capable than highly trained military men. Odd.

I asked you when did the Joker "beat up" Batman, as you claimed?

Dark-Jaxx
Hans Gruber was a mastermind with no feats to put him on even half the level Joker was in terms of scheming.

Joker hides as a hostage among the hostages, shoots John dead.

Joker makes his thugs dress like the hostages, and makes the hostages look like the thugs, keeps them all in one room, and then as John is shooting hostages, the thugs shoot him dead.

Or Joker could just sick three dogs on John and beat him with a pipe. That would be funny.

Or, my personal favorite scenario, he leaves the building on an ambulance like Hans was planning to and blows up the building.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Robtard
How do you know the Joker isn't a bad shot? Either way, John is highly skilled with guns; shooting bad guys is what he's about. Hans Gruber was also a mastermind, yet John survived his machinations.

As Jaxx noted, Hans doesn't have half of the Joker's smarts, creativty, or, most importantly, unpredictability. Do you really think that John surviving the machinations of a lesser man than the Joker will necessarily mean that he can survive the Joker's?

Besides, considering the fact that the distance between the two is very small, the Joker- obviously able to competently handle himself with a gun (you saw the fact that he killed multiple people with guns in TDK), will be able to hit Bruce Will- sorry, John from such a distance. If the Joker was strolling down some street and John sniped him, it would be a different matter. Thankfully, it isn't the case.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yea, they'll be alerted just like the merc-terrorist in the Die Hard movies, he still managed to evade them and come back killing. Not sure why you think Joker's street thugs would be more capable than highly trained military men. Odd.

Because John doesn't know that the so-called 'captors' were in fact the hostages? And besides, how do you know the Joker won't just take off his makeup and disguise himself? He did it once in the movie. Remember, this is TDK Joker, not comic book Joker.

Originally posted by Robtard
I asked you when did the Joker "beat up" Batman, as you claimed?

End of the movie. The Joker's dogs, alone with the Joker himself, attacked Batman and beat him up pretty badly. Subsequently, Batsy knocked them all away and the Joker proceeded to pummel him with his fists and with an iron pipe, and subsequently choked with a wooden board. Which leaves the question of why the f*ck did he use a pipe instead of one of his many knives? Well, he didn't want to kill Bats... but he doesn't have the same reservation with John, does he? And this is Batman, the guy who trained as a martial artist over a long period of time by just about the most feared ninja league in the world, and subsequently spent a considerable amount of time wiping his ass with criminals. He's a far better H2H fighter than John, anyway.

Dark-Jaxx
Joker actually had both a pipe and a knife when he beat down Batman. Saw the movie again a couple days ago.

But regardless, Joker showed some impressive reflexes and strength in the movie.

That pencil scene showed great reflexes.

He easily restrained that cop.

And remember, Joker also has other weapons, hidden weapons like a blade that comes out of the tip of his shoe.

Robtard
You people are funny.

Scheming this, Scheming that nonsense. Joker has a building with hostages, he isn't trying to pull what he did in the TDK, so your Scheming fantasies are irrelevant here, read what the trhead starter stipulated. John is undetected in the building and he's hunting the Joker and his men. If anything, the Joker would underestimate John once he found out some cop was inside, just like Hans Gruber and end up getting shot in the head.

That bit about "the has Joker dogs!" is especially moronic. Unlike Batman, John has a gun(s) and he wouldn't hesitate to shoot the dogs and the Joker dead. While we do know that the Joker, being the Joker has a flare for dramatics before he kills people, it's just what he tends to do.

The Joker never "beat up" Batman, he got a few hits in with the help of his dogs and ended up being tossed out the ****ing window for his antics, he certainly didn't win that fight.

Prime#
Despite Joker's impressive showing against Batman, in hand to hand, it should be noted that he was prepared specifically for Batman, and any time he got in close, without having Batman distracted, he got knocked away farely easily.

The only shootout Joker was in was when he almost got owned by the bank teller in the beginning, and I think Mclane's a better shot than a bank teller

Master Crimzon
The Joker didn't nearly get owned, or whatever that is. And besides, I never claimed McClane isn't a better shot than the Joker; just that with the insignificant distance between them, being an 'uber shot' won't effin' matter, considering that John is supposedly inside the building butchering his henchmen; if he succeeds (which is doubtful), the Joker will know that he isn't some punk. He hides and then jumps him. Do you really think he's just gonna shoot the dogs and the the Joker like it's nothing? Really, he isn't that fast, and that's more than enough time for the Joker to shoot him, knife him, or do whatever sick sh!t he does.

As far as I can remember, the Joker initially attacked Batman with the dogs. Batman is on the ground, beaten (badly) beaten by the dogs and the Joker. He knocks them off of him, and proceeds to throw the Joker away; the Joker subsequently punches him in the face, pummels him, and pins him down. If it hadn't been for the fact that the Joker didn't want to kill Batman, or if he wasn't too busy waiting for the 'fireforks', Batman's throat could have easily been slit, or he could have been alternatively shot. That belief that Batman owned him or beat him is ridiculous.

And as far as I can remember, even after his dogs were incapacitated, the Joker beat up Batman with Batman getting many hits in; he certainly 'spiritually won' the fight despite not actually wanting to kill Batman (then again, Batman didn't wanna kill him, either...). And how the hell does it matter that he was 'prepared specifically' for Batman? Does it adapt his H2H skills?

Sorry, McClane doesn't stand a chance unless he encounters the Joker on a random street and they go into a shootout, or John snipes him.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
You people are funny.

Scheming this, Scheming that nonsense. Joker has a building with hostages, he isn't trying to pull what he did in the TDK, so your Scheming fantasies are irrelevant here, read what the trhead starter stipulated. John is undetected in the building and he's hunting the Joker and his men. If anything, the Joker would underestimate John once he found out some cop was inside, just like Hans Gruber and end up getting shot in the head.

That bit about "the has Joker dogs!" is especially moronic. Unlike Batman, John has a gun(s) and he wouldn't hesitate to shoot the dogs and the Joker dead. While we do know that the Joker, being the Joker has a flare for dramatics before he kills people, it's just what he tends to do.

The Joker never "beat up" Batman, he got a few hits in with the help of his dogs and ended up being tossed out the ****ing window for his antics, he certainly didn't win that fight. 1. Yeah, Joker is more strategic and a better planner than Hans by far. Why not pull some things he did in TDK? Joker isn't Hans. John is undetected. Yeah, as in they don't know he is there at first. But like in Die Hard, they will learn of John's presence soon. Hans Gruber, despite being a "MASTAMIND!!!!!" was nowhere near as intelligent as you all try to play him off to be, he was not even half the schemer Joker was.

2. Really? Or he sicks the dogs, and while John is shooting the dogs, Joker shoots John. Joker had a flare for the dramatic with Batman. To Joker though, Mclane is just another cop. Joker doesn't wast time with cops, he just kills them.

3. After the dogs were taken out, Joker held his own with Batman, sure, he had a pipe, but he was fighting fvcking Batman, who is a much better fighter than John, he handles armed thugs with guns easily.

Robtard
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The Joker didn't nearly get owned, or whatever that is. And besides, I never claimed McClane isn't a better shot than the Joker; just that with the insignificant distance between them, being an 'uber shot' won't effin' matter, considering that John is supposedly inside the building butchering his henchmen; if he succeeds (which is doubtful), the Joker will know that he isn't some punk. He hides and then jumps him. Do you really think he's just gonna shoot the dogs and the the Joker like it's nothing? Really, he isn't that fast, and that's more than enough time for the Joker to shoot him, knife him, or do whatever sick sh!t he does.

As far as I can remember, the Joker initially attacked Batman with the dogs. Batman is on the ground, beaten (badly) beaten by the dogs and the Joker. He knocks them off of him, and proceeds to throw the Joker away; the Joker subsequently punches him in the face, pummels him, and pins him down. If it hadn't been for the fact that the Joker didn't want to kill Batman, or if he wasn't too busy waiting for the 'fireforks', Batman's throat could have easily been slit, or he could have been alternatively shot. That belief that Batman owned him or beat him is ridiculous.

And as far as I can remember, even after his dogs were incapacitated, the Joker beat up Batman with Batman getting many hits in; he certainly 'spiritually won' the fight despite not actually wanting to kill Batman (then again, Batman didn't wanna kill him, either...). And how the hell does it matter that he was 'prepared specifically' for Batman? Does it adapt his H2H skills?

Sorry, McClane doesn't stand a chance unless he encounters the Joker on a random street and they go into a shootout, or John snipes him.
WTF? You used "pwn" in a few threads above, but you're passively giving him shit for saying "owned", right.

Why are your arguments always biased on the Joker automatically getting the upper-hand via hiding, jumping or cleverly springing like a cheetah in some fashion? John has a gun, why would he want to get as close as possible to shoot him? Bullets go long distances; that's the purpose of a gun. To think he would get within 10-15 feet of the Joker before shooting is just nonsense.

Now the Joker "spiritually won" the hand-2-hand fight? What the **** does that mean?

Joker and his dog temporarily overpowered Batman and got a few hits in, in the end, Batman kicked the dogs out of the way and tossed the Joker's ass out of a window. Win-win for Batman.

If you looked at it objectively, you'd see that the Joker would just get his ass shot by John.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Yeah, Joker is more strategic and a better planner than Hans by far. Why not pull some things he did in TDK? Joker isn't Hans. John is undetected. Yeah, as in they don't know he is there at first. But like in Die Hard, they will learn of John's presence soon. Hans Gruber, despite being a "MASTAMIND!!!!!" was nowhere near as intelligent as you all try to play him off to be, he was not even half the schemer Joker was.

2. Really? Or he sicks the dogs, and while John is shooting the dogs, Joker shoots John. Joker had a flare for the dramatic with Batman. To Joker though, Mclane is just another cop. Joker doesn't wast time with cops, he just kills them.

3. After the dogs were taken out, Joker held his own with Batman, sure, he had a pipe, but he was fighting fvcking Batman, who is a much better fighter than John, he handles armed thugs with guns easily.

And the Joker is still trying to perform a little B&E. He's stealing, not trying some master scheme to bring a whole city to it's knees. Hans was a genius.

LoL, again with the dogs. This is how pathetic you "Joker pwns all" people are becoming. Dogs this or dogs that. BTW, the Joker likes to use a knife, he said it himself.

And he got his ass thrown out the window for all his badass-ness you think he has. The fight wasn't that long. Don't make it seem like it was some epic battle with Batman barely pulling through. BTW, John has a gun, no need to fight the Joker with his fist.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Robtard
WTF? You used "pwn" in a few threads above, but you're passively giving him shit for saying "owned", right.

Ehh... and your point is? How witty.

Originally posted by Robtard
Why are your arguments always biased on the Joker automatically getting the upper-hand via hiding, jumping or cleverly springing like a cheetah in some fashion?

Because the Joker is smart, and that's what he does all the bloody time.

Originally posted by Robtard
John has a gun, why would he want to get as close as possible to shoot him? Bullets go long distances; that's the purpose of a gun. To think he would get within 10-15 feet of the Joker before shooting is just nonsense.

How about the fact that as far as I can remember, the final scene (at least in number two) happened to be Batman facing the Joker in a relatively secluded room, and there is no F*CKIN' reason why he wouldn't grab a shotgun as soon as he realized people were getting killed downstairs, looked at the door, and as soon as John comes blasting in, the Joker, being prepared and ready, blasts off his head. Or, better yet, he simply lets the dogs loose and shoots him. Or hides, disguises himself in some form, and sticks a knife in John's head. But I guess that because John is a badass, he is automatically immune to bullets!

Sorry, that only applies to Chuck Norris.

Originally posted by Robtard
Now the Joker "spiritually won" the hand-2-hand fight? What the **** does that mean?

That he, for all intents and purposes, WON THE BLOODY FIGHT! He was reluctant to kill Batman, had him at his mercy, and still only lost thanks to shooting knives coming from Batman's gauntlet. I'm sure your precious McClane doesn't have that, now does he?

Originally posted by Robtard
Joker and his dog temporarily overpowered Batman and got a few hits in, in the end, Batman kicked the dogs out of the way and tossed the Joker's ass out of a window. Win-win for Batman.

Way to go for watching the movie and ignoring the fact that Joker beat Batman across the room, pinned him down, choked him, and could have easily killed him. Nah, all that can be easily ignored, because Batman kicked the Joker's ass, beat him bloody, and then punched him out of the window. DUH.

Originally posted by Robtard
If you looked at it objectively, you'd see that the Joker would just get his ass shot by John.

If you look at it objectively, you'd see the John isn't as intelligent, crafty, cunning, as good a knife user, as good an H2H combatant as the Joker. However, you simply refuse to admit that the Joker won't just stand there and wait to get shot, because maybe he... *gasps*... actually has some skills?

Btw, Jaxx, I'm debating with myself whether to go and watch TDK again. Is the second time watchin' better than the first?

Prime#
For all those who need verification, the Batman-Joker fight went like this.

Joker lets the dog loose, while Batman is struggling with the dogs, Joker beats on him with a pipe. Batman knocks the dogs off, and punches the Joker away. While Bats is getting up, Joker knocks him into a net, where he procedes to punch him, and stabs him once. Bats knocks Joker away again, now, his radar is messed up, and he can't see anything clearly. Joker knocks him into the wood thing where Bats is restrained.

Then Batman gets tired of Jokers ranting, shoots him with those spike gauntlet thingy's and throws his ass off of the building

Robtard
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Ehh... and your point is? How witty.

Because the Joker is smart, and that's what he does all the bloody time.

How about the fact that as far as I can remember, the final scene (at least in number two) happened to be Batman facing the Joker in a relatively secluded room, and there is no F*CKIN' reason why he wouldn't grab a shotgun as soon as he realized people were getting killed downstairs, looked at the door, and as soon as John comes blasting in, the Joker, being prepared and ready, blasts off his head. Or, better yet, he simply lets the dogs loose and shoots him. Or hides, disguises himself in some form, and sticks a knife in John's head. But I guess that because John is a badass, he is automatically immune to bullets!

Sorry, that only applies to Chuck Norris.

That he, for all intents and purposes, WON THE BLOODY FIGHT! He was reluctant to kill Batman, had him at his mercy, and still only lost thanks to shooting knives coming from Batman's gauntlet. I'm sure your precious McClane doesn't have that, now does he?

Way to go for watching the movie and ignoring the fact that Joker beat Batman across the room, pinned him down, choked him, and could have easily killed him. Nah, all that can be easily ignored, because Batman kicked the Joker's ass, beat him bloody, and then punched him out of the window. DUH.

If you look at it objectively, you'd see the John isn't as intelligent, crafty, cunning, as good a knife user, as good an H2H combatant as the Joker. However, you simply refuse to admit that the Joker won't just stand there and wait to get shot, because maybe he... *gasps*... actually has some skills?

Well, point was that is was odd, you used "pwn", then question Prime# using "owned". Very odd.

The Joker hides, springs and jumps all the time? I doubt that.

John can be killed, he's just better at killing people than the Joker. He has a simple aim and shoot policy, doesn't bother with theatrics.

Na, you're just being silly, Joker didn't win the fight. His overall scheme worked, but he didn't win the fist fight. He even said something along the lines of not betting it all on a fist fight, because he knows he's no match in a physical confrontation.

Joker has major skills. But when it comes to Joker with dogs and knife verses John with a gun, the gun wins. You just have this chilld-like fantasy of the Joker dressing up like a nurse, hiding in a corner and jumping out like a rabid chipmunk onto John's back and stabbing him while John is apparently fighting two dogs.

Robtard
Originally posted by Prime#
For all those who need verification, the Batman-Joker fight went like this.

Joker lets the dog loose, while Batman is struggling with the dogs, Joker beats on him with a pipe. Batman knocks the dogs off, and punches the Joker away. While Bats is getting up, Joker knocks him into a net, where he procedes to punch him, and stabs him once. Bats knocks Joker away again, now, his radar is messed up, and he can't see anything clearly. Joker knocks him into the wood thing where Bats is restrained.

Then Batman gets tired of Jokers ranting, shoots him with those spike gauntlet thingy's and throws his ass off of the building

But, but, but... the Joker "spiritually won" the fight!

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Robtard
Well, point was that is was odd, you used "pwn", then question Prime# using "owned". Very odd.

You really hadn't grasped the meaning of humor, have you?

Originally posted by Robtard
The Joker hides, springs and jumps all the time? I doubt that.

He hides among other people, disguises himself, and gets sneak attacks plenty of times, yeah. Just two examples are the nurse scene and the attempted mayor assassination, where he disguised himself as a cop. Now... what would prevent him from doing the same against McClane? I suppose his aura of badassness will prevent the Joker from doing anything other than standing and waiting to get shot?

Originally posted by Robtard
John can be killed, he's just better at killing people than the Joker. He has a simple aim and shoot policy, doesn't bother with theatrics.

LOL. The Joker killed the well-protected commissioner, bombed the judge's car, shot LOADS of people (including his own henchmen), managed to be cunning enough in order to sneak into a major mobster's hideout and kill him in his own lair... do we really need to discuss who, overall, is the more effective killer? Shooting at people isn't he only way to kill 'em.


Originally posted by Robtard
Na, you're just being silly, Joker didn't win the fight. His overall scheme worked, but he didn't win the fist fight. He even said something along the lines of not betting it all on a fist fight, because he knows he's no match in a physical confrontation.

Yeah... err... you do know that it's because the Joker both didn't want to kill Batman and, therefore, a fistfight wouldn't matter? The fact that punching Batman to death wasn't his plan doesn't mean that he is not capable of doing it (I'm not saying he is, but he's certainly a match and a challenge for Batman, even on an individual basis).


Originally posted by Robtard
Joker has major skills. But when it comes to Joker with dogs and knife verses John with a gun, the gun wins. You just have this chilld-like fantasy of the Joker dressing up like a nurse, hiding in a corner and jumping out like a rabid chipmunk onto John's back and stabbing him while John is apparently fighting two dogs.

And, really, what would prevent the Joker from doing that, hmm? Or just stand there and as soon as John comes waltzing in, shoot him in the face? And besides, even you have to concede that the Joker will defeat him in a hand-to-hand fight.

And the fight; as far as I can remember, the Joker momentarily blinded Batman, and even before he blinded him, he was holding his own quite nicely. And the fact that without his cool gadgets, Batman was helpless and could have been easily killed doesn't count, does it?

And I might remind you that the Joker didn't blow Batman's head off or stick him with his knife kick. He WASN'T going all-out in that fight.

Originally posted by Robtard
But, but, but... the Joker "spiritually won" the fight!

Funny guy.

Robtard
Sorry, didn't find your "joke" humorous.

Yes, I do understand the Joker uses disguises. You're avoiding the scenario the thread starter laid out though (because it benefits your silliness). The Joker is in the building and he's trying to break into a vault. Why in the **** would he bring various outfits with him, let alone two dogs? But okay.

When it comes to simply killing people, John is better. He simply shoots and kills, nice and easy. Now in grand schemes of killing people and theatrics, the Joker wins that hands down. This scenario isn't one of those fancy schemes though. It would be John vs the Joker and his thugs in a building.

You're still avoiding the fact that Batman kicked his dog's and his ass and you're assuming that the Joker could have killed him at any time and it simply isn't so. I believe Prime# laid the fight scene out scene per scene. Do you really think the Joker is a better combatant than Batman, or even close?

I never argued that the Joker would just stand there, I in fact argued that it would most likely come down to a gun battle, and John is far better at killing with guns, hence, he wins. You assume that John would somehow have to get within H2H range before he shoots and that the Joker would then disarm and kill him via knife or fist while wearing some master disguise. Which is just a silly scenario. That and the dogs you keep bringing in.

Prime#
"Joker waits on the top floor of the building, with his dogs, staring at the elevator shaft"


"An 18 wheeler that John is driving then comes zooming through the roof of the building instantly crushing Joker and his dogs."

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, I do understand the Joker uses disguises. You're avoiding the scenario the thread starter laid out though (because it benefits your silliness). The Joker is in the building and he's trying to break into a vault. Why in the **** would he bring various outfits with him, let alone two dogs? But okay.

I currently discussing the second situation, the TDK one. I won't get around to the first situation.

To answer you, it's because he might just know that people will be after him? It doesn't necessarily have to be McClane or whatnot. But he already displayed the ability to deceive people in very cunning manners. And if he hides, lets his dogs (which WERE there) distract McClaine, and subsequently blows his head up... how will McClane avoid that, eh?

Originally posted by Robtard
When it comes to simply killing people, John is better. He simply shoots and kills, nice and easy. Now in grand schemes of killing people and theatrics, the Joker wins that hands down. This scenario isn't one of those fancy schemes though. It would be John vs the Joker and his thugs in a building.

I wouldn't quite know about that. The Joker has killed many, many people with just guns and knives and whatnot; he has an entirely different style than John, obviously, but that doesn't make him the lesser killer. If anything, the Joker is an overall more effective killer than McClane.

And besides, it's not like McClane outclasses the Joker in every aspect of personal combat, too. The Joker is craftier, more brutal, and a more effective H2H fighter than McClane; being a better shot won't help, because they aren't far away from each other and the Joker can, most definetly, hit him from that range. Not to mention that he will be prepared and ready for McClane while he won't know what he's stepping into (which, of course, you casually ignore).

Originally posted by Robtard
You're still avoiding the fact that Batman kicked his dog's and his ass and you're assuming that the Joker could have killed him at any time and it simply isn't so. I believe Prime# laid the fight scene out scene per scene. Do you really think the Joker is a better combatant than Batman, or even close?

Better? Nah. As good? Quite possibly, at least in TDK. He has more weapons, isn't afraid to use guns, and can also hold his own against Batman in a hand-to-hand, close-up battle. He did do that; even before he UBWR BLINDED HIM!!!11!!, he was holding his own nicely and got multiple kicks in. And let me remind you that he didn't use his guns, explosives, or knife kick, and, as he said later, he didn't want to kill Batman.

And besides, if you want H2H skills, the Joker quite obviously easily beat up a pissed off cop in the interrogation room. Cops are well-trained in hand to hand and fighting techniques, and do you really think Gordon- a smart, good cop- is stupid enough to leave an incompetent policeman? And the Joker obviously took control of him quite easily, with only his hand to hand skills. He also easily disabled a mobster with his hands and a pencil. He is a better hand-to-hand combatant than Johnny.

Originally posted by Robtard
I never argued that the Joker would just stand there, I in fact argued that it would most likely come down to a gun battle, and John is far better at killing with guns, hence, he wins. You assume that John would somehow have to get within H2H range before he shoots and that the Joker would then disarm and kill him via knife or fist while wearing some master disguise. Which is just a silly scenario. That and the dogs you keep bringing in.

No... what would make you think the Joker is so incompetent he would need to get very close in order to shoot someone, especially if he just hides and blasts McClane apart the moment he enters the room. The only situation where a full-blown gun battle may takes place is if they face each other on some street. Unless the Joker closes in on him and puts a smile on his face.

And besides- if, say, they do get hand-to-hand- what would prevent the Joker from gutting him? And what would prevent the Joker from disguising himself or hiding? That's right. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Robtard
Originally posted by Prime#
"Joker waits on the top floor of the building, with his dogs, staring at the elevator shaft"


"An 18 wheeler that John is driving then comes zooming through the roof of the building instantly crushing Joker and his dogs."

Not sure if it was intentional, but it seems you're quoting me; I never said that nonsense.

Robtard
Master Crimzon,

We'll argue the John or Joker winning round and round. I'm tired of that, as either is going to convince the other. You think the Joker will disguise himself, hide, jump about and use dogs to win. I think it will come down to a gun fight and John has the upper-hand there, so he'd win. Let's just disagree.

But what in the world are you thinking that the Joker is as good as Batman in hand-to-hand fighting? All he did was take two down guys, one a thug and the other a fat cop, which he took by surprise. Now, I'm not saying he isn't skilled, but there is no proof that he is an expert combatant. Seems like more TDK induced madness.

Master Crimzon
I can definetly agree to the whole 'let's stop arguing' notion, without baiting you.

But, otherwise said, he took out the thug by surprise, not the fat cop, considering that said cop tried to beat the crap out of the Joker (and failed). There is no proof that he isn't an excellent hand-to-hand combatant? Please. Sure, he doesn't use purely his hand-to-hand skills, he also uses knifes (he is, apparently, a skilled user, considering he prefers knifes to guns). He also held his own, despite what you might say, individually, without any sort of assistance against Batman. Without using the knife inside his boot, a gun, or trying to kill Batman- if the difference between them was as large as you think, Batman would simply have swept him away easily. He didn't.

And nah. I love TDK, and the Joker's depiction deserves to go down in history with names like Darth Vader and Hannibal Lecter, but I still think logically about these stuff. Oh, and I like Batman himself, too.

And by the way, I've read that some comic or whatnot explains the Joker's fighting prowess due to the fact that his insanity gives him adrenaline rushes, which gives him sort-of inhuman strength and reflexes. Just throwing it out here.

Röland
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And by the way, I've read that some comic or whatnot explains the Joker's fighting prowess due to the fact that his insanity gives him adrenaline rushes, which gives him sort-of inhuman strength and reflexes. Just throwing it out here.
Not to get in the middle of your debate, but you can't bring in anything outside of the movies, unless the thread starter states that it is fair game.

Bardock42
Joker is no match for Batman in H2H.

He got a few hits in when Batman fought three rabid dogs. And then lucked out and could use Batman's equipment malfunctioning, to "beat" him.

Robtard
Master Crimzon,

There actually isn't proof that he is an excellent hand-2-hand combatant. Good, maybe/yes. Excellent, no.

He twisted the thugs hand behind his back and slammed his head into the table. That's good, the thug was underestimating him, but still a good move. The cop, well, we don't know exactly what happened, most likely the same. He mind-****ed the cop into attacking and he beat him, using his anger against him. Again, good, but no indication of true excellence.

As far as the knife thing goes, what was an impressive feat he did with a knife? Can you name one?

Three dogs where on Batman and his eye-gear malfunctioned, it's the only reason he got a few hits in. There is nothing in that fight scene that proves the Joker is equal (or close) to Batman in fighting, nothing as fact.

Master Crimzon

Robtard
No, he didn't fight equally. He surprised Batman (dogs, broken gear and whatnot) and temporarily got the upper-hand, key word TEMPORARILY. Just stop this nonsense.

You want proof that Batman is far superior in Hand-2-hand to the Joker? Okay:

1) He kicked the Joker's ass
2) He defeated scores of Ninja along with Raj Al Ghul (could the Joker do this?)
3) He defeats multiple armed thugs and gangsters repeatedly (Could the Joker do this?)

There, it's been refuted yet again.

I said the Joker is probably/maybe a good combatant based on what little we see. I disagree that he defeated Batman in the fight, "spiritually", or otherwise.

Oh, that bit about him being an excellent knife fighter. Do you have a scene where he shows us this?

Master Crimzon
He kicked the Joker's ass... when? In the interrogation scene, when the Joker was in the middle of a f*cking police department and wasn't interested in doing anything to Batman himself? Oh, yeah, that scene.

Now, an actual scene when they fought, please, and Batman destroyed the Joker?

As for the 'scores of ninja'? He beat up... 6, 7 or so ninja with great difficulty, and subsequently proceeded to defeat Ra's Al Ghul in the same manner that he beat the Joker; they got cocky or didn't want to kill him when they had the upper hand, so Batman took the opportunity and defeated him. Not saying that Ra's Al Ghul is necessarily better- but Batman isn't, either.

You know why I like Batman? He uses stealth, deception, fear, and martial arts to fight his opponents. He doesn't waltz in front of them and beats them up; he stealthily attacks them and uses his bullet-proof suit to avoid damage to him. So, there goes your points about Batman defeating scores of thugs with just his H2H skills.

And, if Batman was as vastly superior as you say, he would have easily subdued the Joker after the dogs were down; so it happens that he didn't. And even after being only momentarily blinded, the Joker still pressed his advantage and pinned him down. If Batman was vastly superior, he would've escaped or stopped the Joker from beating him up. And, for god's sake, the JOKER DIDN'T TRY TO KILL HIM!

As for the comment about him being an excellent knife user? Well, according to Jaxx, he used a knife against Batman. Otherwise, there isn't any specific place displaying the fact that he is an excellent knife user- however, he is shown to carry dozens of knifes on his body and, by his own admission, prefers them to guns, logically meaning that he at least spent some time training his skills with a knife.

That doesn't matter, though, as John isn't half the hand-to-hand fighter Batman is.

Prime#
Joker never landed a hit on Batman without the help of some kind of distraction.

Does anyone else remember the fact that in the first scene where Batman and Joker square off, Bats' is taking on about 6 or seven of Jokers henchmen + the Joker? and was beating them until Joker threw Rachel out the window

demoneyeslaharl
Originally posted by Prime#
Joker never landed a hit on Batman without the help of some kind of distraction.

Does anyone else remember the fact that in the first scene where Batman and Joker square off, Bats' is taking on about 6 or seven of Jokers henchmen + the Joker? and was beating them until Joker threw Rachel out the window

I think that was the time Joker knew he needed dogs. haha.

ragesRemorse
everyone knows the Joker is a pussy when it comes to unarmed combat...,that's first day stuff.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
And the Joker is still trying to perform a little B&E. He's stealing, not trying some master scheme to bring a whole city to it's knees. Hans was a genius.

LoL, again with the dogs. This is how pathetic you "Joker pwns all" people are becoming. Dogs this or dogs that. BTW, the Joker likes to use a knife, he said it himself.

And he got his ass thrown out the window for all his badass-ness you think he has. The fight wasn't that long. Don't make it seem like it was some epic battle with Batman barely pulling through. BTW, John has a gun, no need to fight the Joker with his fist. 1. So this isn't really Joker at all? Taking his character into account, he doesn't give two shits about money, and will blow the whole friggin place away if he has to, hell, if he feels like it actually. Hans was a genius...Nowhere on Joker's level. Hans took control of a building trying to rob a bank and was able to hold off the police with hostages long enough until he got shot by John and fell to his death. Joker had an entire city cowering, was always several steps ahead of the Police and even Batman, and only lost a fistfight with Batman, which is by no means a bad feat. Joker however did manage to do something he set out to do, he won in a sense by corrupting the "best of Gotham", Harvey Dent, he won "the battle for Gotham's soul", and proved that one bad day is all it takes to drive a mind insane, and that anyone can be a killer under the right circumstances, which was pretty much his main goal.

2. Nice dodge there mate. What is really pathetic is how you Mclaner's only real argument is,"Mclane is a badass with a gun and will shoot Joker dead." Joker prefers a knife, sure, but as seen MULTIPLE times in the movie, he will use a gun when neccessary.

3. And Mclane got beaten up by some random German guy until Mclane hung him by the neck on a chain. Joker got beat by the Batman after he shot Joker with blades that come out of his gauntlets. Which feat is worse? Sure, this will most likely never come to a fist fight. Never argued it would. And Joker has a gun, and is so much smarter than Mclane that he can and will kill Mclane.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
everyone knows the Joker is a pussy when it comes to unarmed combat...,that's first day stuff. In most of the comics? Sure. In TDK? Nope.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Prime#
Joker never landed a hit on Batman without the help of some kind of distraction.

Does anyone else remember the fact that in the first scene where Batman and Joker square off, Bats' is taking on about 6 or seven of Jokers henchmen + the Joker? and was beating them until Joker threw Rachel out the window Actually by the time Joker entered the fight most of Joker's thugs were already taken out.

Though that was Batman.

10 Mclane's couldn't beat one Batman in a fistfight.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
John can be killed, he's just better at killing people than the Joker. haermm

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
haermm

Yeah, it's so much fun to parse what people say and then respond with a little yellow symbol. Fool.

Robtard
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
He kicked the Joker's ass... when? In the interrogation scene, when the Joker was in the middle of a f*cking police department and wasn't interested in doing anything to Batman himself? Oh, yeah, that scene.

Now, an actual scene when they fought, please, and Batman destroyed the Joker?

As for the 'scores of ninja'? He beat up... 6, 7 or so ninja with great difficulty, and subsequently proceeded to defeat Ra's Al Ghul in the same manner that he beat the Joker; they got cocky or didn't want to kill him when they had the upper hand, so Batman took the opportunity and defeated him. Not saying that Ra's Al Ghul is necessarily better- but Batman isn't, either.

You know why I like Batman? He uses stealth, deception, fear, and martial arts to fight his opponents. He doesn't waltz in front of them and beats them up; he stealthily attacks them and uses his bullet-proof suit to avoid damage to him. So, there goes your points about Batman defeating scores of thugs with just his H2H skills.

And, if Batman was as vastly superior as you say, he would have easily subdued the Joker after the dogs were down; so it happens that he didn't. And even after being only momentarily blinded, the Joker still pressed his advantage and pinned him down. If Batman was vastly superior, he would've escaped or stopped the Joker from beating him up. And, for god's sake, the JOKER DIDN'T TRY TO KILL HIM!

As for the comment about him being an excellent knife user? Well, according to Jaxx, he used a knife against Batman. Otherwise, there isn't any specific place displaying the fact that he is an excellent knife user- however, he is shown to carry dozens of knifes on his body and, by his own admission, prefers them to guns, logically meaning that he at least spent some time training his skills with a knife.

That doesn't matter, though, as John isn't half the hand-to-hand fighter Batman is.

He kicked his ass in that very fight scene, did you forget that the fight ended with Joker's ass being thrown out the window and then being saved by Batman? It's very silly of you to ignore this and just state "the Joker spiritually won." He also kicked his ass in the party scene for Harvey, as Prime# mentioned. Or did the Joker "spiritually win" there too?

Ah, when he rebels against Raj Ah Ghul, there's a lot more than just 6 or 7 ninja. Even so, the Joker hasn't shown the ability to even take out 6-7 of these ninja. Or do you think he could?

Yet he still defeats scores and scores of thugs in a face on fight. Did you forget the fight scenes in the train in BB with the ninja and then again the fight scene in TDK in the night club with the thugs? He faced them face to face with no "sneaking" about, as you claim. There goes your little theory.

One stab attack doesn't make someone an expert with knives, either does just carrying a bunch of knives. Sure, though, he knows how to grab a knife and them stab with it, who doesn't though?

And we weren't talking about Joker Vs John at the moment, remember.

Seriously, the Joker is no match for Batman physically, it's just dumb to argue that it is. Like I mentioned, even the Joker acknowledges this in the movie after he's left dangling by his ankle after Batman tossed his ass out the window.

Robtard
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. So this isn't really Joker at all? Taking his character into account, he doesn't give two shits about money, and will blow the whole friggin place away if he has to, hell, if he feels like it actually. Hans was a genius...Nowhere on Joker's level. Hans took control of a building trying to rob a bank and was able to hold off the police with hostages long enough until he got shot by John and fell to his death. Joker had an entire city cowering, was always several steps ahead of the Police and even Batman, and only lost a fistfight with Batman, which is by no means a bad feat. Joker however did manage to do something he set out to do, he won in a sense by corrupting the "best of Gotham", Harvey Dent, he won "the battle for Gotham's soul", and proved that one bad day is all it takes to drive a mind insane, and that anyone can be a killer under the right circumstances, which was pretty much his main goal.

2. Nice dodge there mate. What is really pathetic is how you Mclaner's only real argument is,"Mclane is a badass with a gun and will shoot Joker dead." Joker prefers a knife, sure, but as seen MULTIPLE times in the movie, he will use a gun when neccessary.

3. And Mclane got beaten up by some random German guy until Mclane hung him by the neck on a chain. Joker got beat by the Batman after he shot Joker with blades that come out of his gauntlets. Which feat is worse? Sure, this will most likely never come to a fist fight. Never argued it would. And Joker has a gun, and is so much smarter than Mclane that he can and will kill Mclane.

Well yeah, if it were John in Batman's place trying to stop the Joker from corrupting Harvey dent and putting fear into an entire city, I've no doubt the Joker would succeed, this isn't the scenario though. It's more than likely that John could take out Joker's thugs and the Joker himself in this scenario though, as he's taken out mercs and Hans Gruber.

I've said repeatedly this would likely end in a gun fight with the Joker shooting back and not just standing around. John is better at gun fights, it's what he does.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Robtard
Well yeah, if it were John in Batman's place trying to stop the Joker from corrupting Harvey dent and putting fear into an entire city, I've no doubt the Joker would succeed, this isn't the scenario though. It's more than likely that John could take out Joker's thugs and the Joker himself in this scenario though, as he's taken out mercs and Hans Gruber.

I've said repeatedly this would likely end in a gun fight with the Joker shooting back and not just standing around. John is better at gun fights, it's what he does. 1. The scenario is that Joker has control of the building with hostages. That is it. Going by Joker's character, blowing the building to hell after he escapes on an ambulance is a very viable option.

2. Oh, now Mclane is probably a better gunman than Joker due to Joker's lack of gun feats, granted. But like in TDK, he won't be stupid and risk it with Mclane. In TDK, by his own words, he wasn't going to risk the battle for Gotham's soul in a fist fight with Batman, he had an ace in the hole, Harvey Dent. He essentially won the battle for Gotham's soul by corrupting their "white knight." He won't risk losing in a gunfight with John, that would be stupid.

He disguised himself in the movie twice, once as a nurse, once as a cop. Why not disguise himself as a hostage?

Also, why not do what he did in TDK, have his thugs dress as hostages with hidden guns, and force the hostages to pose as thugs, while Mclane is gunning down hostages, a disguised thug could shoot him.

Master Crimzon
Lolz. To be honest, in the comics, Joker is sometimes depicted as a 'pussy' and sometimes as a match for Batman in H2H... it's really sort of ridiculous. Lol. And in the original Batman, the Joker was once again a pussy, and then in TDK... yeah.

Originally posted by Robtard
He kicked his ass in that very fight scene, did you forget that the fight ended with Joker's ass being thrown out the window and then being saved by Batman? It's very silly of you to ignore this and just state "the Joker spiritually won." He also kicked his ass in the party scene for Harvey, as Prime# mentioned. Or did the Joker "spiritually win" there too?

I just love it how you ignore the fact that the Joker pwned the hell out of Batman until he got cocky and subsequently was shot by knives from Batman's gauntlet. But no, BATMAN OMGZ KIKED HIS A$$!!!

He... didn't kick his ass in the party as far as I can remember. Then again, I only saw TDK once (and am intending to see it again sometime next week), but from what I remember, a bunch of the Joker's thugs held Batman, the Joker got a few hits, and then Batman knocked them away. Oooohhh, the Joker got owned. That's not necessarily a fight scene by which to judge them, anyway. Meh.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ah, when he rebels against Raj Ah Ghul, there's a lot more than just 6 or 7 ninja. Even so, the Joker hasn't shown the ability to even take out 6-7 of these ninja. Or do you think he could?

I suppose we can all casually ignore that Batman blew up the the temple, and subsequently -only- engaged a fake Ra's Al Ghul in combat. And even then, guess what? He only got lucky due to debris falling on 'Ra's' and killing him.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yet he still defeats scores and scores of thugs in a face on fight. Did you forget the fight scenes in the train in BB with the ninja and then again the fight scene in TDK in the night club with the thugs? He faced them face to face with no "sneaking" about, as you claim. There goes your little theory.

The night club was dark and filled with odd lights, and considering Batman was trained to fight in circumstances with low visibility, that would give him an advantage.

As for the train scene? LOL. I just watched it right now, and Bats only came out of the window and proceeded to fight Ra's Al Ghul. No thugs, no nothing.


Originally posted by Robtard
One stab attack doesn't make someone an expert with knives, either does just carrying a bunch of knives. Sure, though, he knows how to grab a knife and them stab with it, who doesn't though?

The fact that he bothers carrying so many knives and, apparently, likes to use them to such an extent, implies that he is an extraordinary knife user- if he wasn't, he wouldn't have known the difference in the usability of several knives, and therefore, would not have carried so many of 'em.

Originally posted by Robtard
Seriously, the Joker is no match for Batman physically, it's just dumb to argue that it is. Like I mentioned, even the Joker acknowledges this in the movie after he's left dangling by his ankle after Batman tossed his ass out the window.

Heh. Once again, ignoring facts is nice. The Joker said he won't risk everything in a fist fight with Batman, because he doesn't do that- why should he? Beating up Batman was never part of the plan. And besides, refute this:

1. After the dogs were thrown away, Batman and Joker fought evenly. This is before Batman was blinded.

2. Batman was pinned down helplessly, and even after he was blinded, he didn't recover.

3. The Joker never actually tried to kill Batman.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Master Crimzon

1. After the dogs were thrown away, Batman and Joker fought evenly. This is before Batman was blinded.

2. Batman was pinned down helplessly, and even after he was blinded, he didn't recover.

3. The Joker never actually tried to kill Batman.

1. They didn't fight evenly, Batman had already fought about 20 Swat people, three dogs and had taken about 15 hits from Joker with a crowbar...yeah, fought evenly. Also, it wasn't before Batman was blinded, when he got rid of the dogs, he pushed Joker away and was blinded immediately.

2. We don't know whether he was pinned downed helplessly, the fact is that he got rid of Joker later on. Whether he was helpless until that chance arose, or he chose to wait, but could have gotten out at any time is questionable.

3. True, not relevant though.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Bardock42
1. They didn't fight evenly, Batman had already fought about 20 Swat people, three dogs and had taken about 15 hits from Joker with a crowbar...yeah, fought evenly. Also, it wasn't before Batman was blinded, when he got rid of the dogs, he pushed Joker away and was blinded immediately.

Fought about twenty SWAT people and didn't take a single hit. Sorry, when you have Batman's training and stamina, it's almost meaningless.

In addition, the Joker also took a few hits from Batman, as well. And they subsequently fought evenly. Very evenly; and if the Joker was such a pathetic weakling, as you people like to pretend, he would not have gotten that hit in that blinded Batman.

And still, after he recovered from the blinding, how come Batman didn't immediately subdue the Joker? Seriously. If he was nothing compared to Batman or however you like to say, Batman would've easily defeated him. He didn't.

Originally posted by Bardock42
2. We don't know whether he was pinned downed helplessly, the fact is that he got rid of Joker later on. Whether he was helpless until that chance arose, or he chose to wait, but could have gotten out at any time is questionable.

Please. The Joker stopped to see the fireworks; even you have to concede that he could've- easily- killed Batman at that point, but chose not to. And besides, what do you think would be easier for Batman? To simply turn the tables and thus easily get control of the Joker, or to use his gauntlet (which he didn't use up until now, probably because he wasn't forced to) and risk killing the Joker, something he didn't want to do?

And before you bring up 'Batman didn't wanna kill the Joker, either' stuff, please note that Batman fights hand-to-hand, which is a load less lethal than the Joker's regular weaponry.

Originally posted by Bardock42
3. True, not relevant though.

How come? He didn't blow up Batman's head with a gun, he didn't use his awesome knife-kick, he didn't slit Batman's throat. He was exclusively beating him up, holding back all the while. If the Joker actually wanted to kill Batman, he quite possibly could've in that fight, and not just when he pinned him down.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Fought about twenty SWAT people and didn't take a single hit. Sorry, when you have Batman's training and stamina, it's almost meaningless.

In addition, the Joker also took a few hits from Batman, as well. And they subsequently fought evenly. Very evenly; and if the Joker was such a pathetic weakling, as you people like to pretend, he would not have gotten that hit in that blinded Batman.

And still, after he recovered from the blinding, how come Batman didn't immediately subdue the Joker? Seriously. If he was nothing compared to Batman or however you like to say, Batman would've easily defeated him. He didn't.


Because they weren't fighting evenly, Batman had already performed extreme feats. He took a major beating and was attacked by 3 fighting dogs. On top of being confused by his malfunctioning equipment. If you want to argue that Batman and Joker had an even fight there you are ludicrous. Nothing in the movie indicates that Joker is even close to Batman in strength or fighting skill, in fact, Joker even repeatedly states to the contrary.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Please. The Joker stopped to see the fireworks; even you have to concede that he could've- easily- killed Batman at that point, but chose not to. And besides, what do you think would be easier for Batman? To simply turn the tables and thus easily get control of the Joker, or to use his gauntlet (which he didn't use up until now, probably because he wasn't forced to) and risk killing the Joker, something he didn't want to do?


And before you bring up 'Batman didn't wanna kill the Joker, either' stuff, please note that Batman fights hand-to-hand, which is a load less lethal than the Joker's regular weaponry.


No, what I said. You don't know whether he could have killed him or whether Batman was waiting for the right moment. Even if he could have, it doesn't prove that Joker is his equal. He isn't.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
How come? He didn't blow up Batman's head with a gun, he didn't use his awesome knife-kick, he didn't slit Batman's throat. He was exclusively beating him up, holding back all the while. If the Joker actually wanted to kill Batman, he quite possibly could've in that fight, and not just when he pinned him down.

Still not relevant.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Bardock42
Because they weren't fighting evenly, Batman had already performed extreme feats. He took a major beating and was attacked by 3 fighting dogs. On top of being confused by his malfunctioning equipment. If you want to argue that Batman and Joker had an even fight there you are ludicrous. Nothing in the movie indicates that Joker is even close to Batman in strength or fighting skill, in fact, Joker even repeatedly states to the contrary.

1. Show me a single statement where the Joker outright says that Batman is a superior combatant in a comparison to himself.

2. He was attacked by three fight dogs and the Joker. Batman knocked all of them away, and before the equipment malfunctioned or some shit (they would both logically be in pain), he and the Joker fought evenly, with neither pwning the other.

3. He WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN HIT IF THE JOKER IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO HIM IN H2H! Seriously.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, what I said. You don't know whether he could have killed him or whether Batman was waiting for the right moment. Even if he could have, it doesn't prove that Joker is his equal. He isn't.

Really? Do you really think that Batman would not have just hit him the moment he was pinned down? What makes you think that? Risk letting the Joker blow up the boats or do some other sort of sick thing? Please. The Joker had Batman at his mercy, helpless. It's pointless to argue that he didn't.

And I'll retort with "Yes he is" Batman's equal.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Still not relevant.

How is it not relevant that the Joker was not going all-out against Batman? Seriously. Just imagine what would have happened if the Joker actually tried to kill Batman.

Robtard
The way you dismiss what Batman has factually done and then just assume the Joker was somehow equal to Batman because he got a few hits in is absurdly funny.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

How is it not relevant that the Joker was not going all-out against Batman? Seriously. Just imagine what would have happened if the Joker actually tried to kill Batman.

So trying to stab and beating him repeatedly with a metal pipe was the Joker holding back? Tell what, what do you assume the Joker had that he was holding back?

Edit: You also need to pay better attention when you watch movies. In Batamn Begins, he fights several ninja and the fake Raj Ah Ghul in the temple, he survives. In Gotham, he takes out four ninjas and then shortly after takes out Raj Ah Ghul on the train. Joker would have been dead in any of these fights.

He also beats down several prison thugs while in jail; this was before he was trained bu the LOS.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Robtard
The way you dismiss what Batman has factually done and then just assume the Joker was somehow equal to Batman because he got a few hits in is absurdly funny.

Only if the Joker is nothing compared to Batman, he would not have fought him, and if he had, he would not have gotten a few hits in nor would he have been able to get the upper hand on Batman. Fail.



Originally posted by Robtard
So trying to stab and beating him repeatedly with a metal pipe was the Joker holding back? Tell what, what do you assume the Joker had that he was holding back?

Guns, his knife kick, and the fact that instead of using a pipe and a knife, he could have (easily) used two knives and stabbed Batman repeatedly while the dogs had him down. But, guess what? The Joker didn't try to kill him. If he had, he would've done it.

Originally posted by Robtard
Edit: You also need to pay better attention when you watch movies. In Batamn Begins, he fights several ninja and the fake Raj Ah Ghul in the temple, he survives. In Gotham, he takes out four ninjas and then shortly after takes out Raj Ah Ghul on the train. Joker would have been dead in any of these fights.

Jesus, you're the one who needs to pay closer attention to movies.

I have the movie IN FRONT OF ME, right now, and let me tell you percisely what happens:

Batman blows up the explosives, proceeds to knock out a surprise Ra's Al Ghul (the real one), knocks away a ninja, and engages the fake Ra's in a one-on-one battle after he gestures for the ninjas to get away and let him fight Bruce. During the entire fight, 'Ra's' spends his time beating on Bruce and then dying due to unluckiness.

Prove that the Joker couldn't use one of his machine guns, his knives, and his other arsenal of weapons to take them out. Unless you believe that Ra's Al Ghul would also have owned him in a fight, bla, bla, bla. You really need to stop ignoring evidence, alright?

Your delusion: The Joker isn't even close to Batman in terms of fighting abilities.

Facts: The Joker managed to get a few hits in and basically dominate Batman after the dogs were gone an before Batman's vision was interrupted. He pinned down Bats, held him at his mercy and STILL refused to kill him. In fact, during this entire fight, he doesn't bother actually using lethal force on Batman. Batman also didn't recover after the Joker got the upper hand, nor does he effortlessly release himself and proceed to WTFpwn Mr. J.

Verdict: The Joker is a match for Batman on an individual basis. Their confrontation showed it, and there is nothing in that particular fight scene that suggests Batman's dominance over the Joker.

Robtard
And once again you're idiotically dismissing that Batman had already been fighting before he faced the Joker and his gear malfunctioned. The Joker was able to surprise him and get the upper hand. Though it was only momentarily.

You're assuming that the Joker could have done this or that with a knife or two knives or whatever. This is YOU assuming.

You really need to pay attention. The fact that Bruce survived proves his ability, Raj also didn't die, this is in the temple fight. In Gotham, Batman takes out four ninja as Raj escapes onto the train and then takes out Raj. Joker hasn't shown the ability to have survived either of these fights.

LoL. The Joker using a machine gun to win any of the fights Batman fought doesn't prove that the "joker is equal to Batman", that is factually a fail and then some. Yea, we see what Raj is capable of, and he is far superior to the Joker.

Again, you're dismissing the scenario that they fought in. Batman had previously been fighting, his gear malfunctioned and the Joker surprised him. This is why the Joker momentarily gained the upper-hand. There is no indication that the Joker would be a match in a even fight, as he still lost in a fight when he had many factors at his advantage.

Fact: You're suffering from "Heath did just a great job; I love the Joker, he's my hero" syndrome.

Edit: This has the scenes where Batman takes out the four ninja and then Raj. Do point out what Joker has shown that proves he could match these. Enjoy and do try to pay attention. @ 1:10

4ulM3PgqV9k

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Robtard
And once again you're idiotically dismissing that Batman had already been fighting before he faced the Joker and his gear malfunctioned. The Joker was able to surprise him and get the upper hand. Though it was only momentarily.

If Batman let the Joker surprise him, it's Batman's fault- being capable of surprising the Batman has got to count for something, doesn't it? Your delusion is that Batman is somehow far superior to the Joker is idiotic. He didn't own the Joker, and he never got the upper hand during the ENTIRE FIGHT. That is fact.

Originally posted by Robtard
You're assuming that the Joker could have done this or that with a knife or two knives or whatever. This is YOU assuming.

What would prevent him from butchering Batman once the dogs had him? Or slashing him once he got the upper hand in the fight? Or blowing out his brains once he had him pinned down? This is not assuming. Nothing would have prevented the Joker from accomplishing that.

Originally posted by Robtard
You really need to pay attention. The fact that Bruce survived proves his ability, Raj also didn't die, this is in the temple fight. In Gotham, Batman takes out four ninja as Raj escapes onto the train and then takes out Raj. Joker hasn't shown the ability to have survived either of these fights.

Great. I was referring purely to the temple fight, where Bruce was dominated by a fake Ra's Al Ghul.


Originally posted by Robtard
LoL. The Joker using a machine gun to win any of the fights Batman fought doesn't prove that the "joker is equal to Batman", that is factually a fail and then some. Yea, we see what Raj is capable of, and he is far superior to the Joker.

LOOOOOOOOL. Give me a single feat Ra's Al Ghul actually has that puts him above the Joker. Aside from "OMGZ HE'S AN UWB3R NINJA!!!!".

Originally posted by Robtard
Again, you're dismissing the scenario that they fought in. Batman had previously been fighting, his gear malfunctioned and the Joker surprised him. This is why the Joker momentarily gained the upper-hand. There is no indication that the Joker would be a match in a even fight, as he still lost in a fight when he had many factors at his advantage.

*Sigh*. Prove that Batman was tired, considering he didn't take a single hit, wasn't panting, and seemed in perfectly good shape when fighting the Joker. Also, explain how the Joker fought Batman evenly after the dogs and before the equipment malfunctioning. And, finally, explain how come a 'vastly inferior' Joker managed to surprise Batman, get the upper hand, and pin him down. All things you can't explain, eh?

Originally posted by Robtard
Fact: You're suffering from "Heath did just a great job; I love the Joker, he's my hero" syndrome.

Fact: Your argument consists of "OMGZ teh Joker surprized Batm@n andd hi got lucki!!11!!" and proceed to fail to answer any of my points or provide a suitable explanation for how the Joker was:

Holding back, pinned Batman down, fought him evenly without any sort of an advantage other than weaponry, and surprised him with a punch to the face.

You suffer from "TDK IS OVERRATED! JOKER CAN'T PWN ANY1! HAHAHAHAHA UR ALL FANBOYZ!!!" syndrome. wink


Originally posted by Robtard
Edit: This has the scenes where Batman takes out the four ninja and then Raj. Do point out what Joker has shown that proves he could match these. Enjoy and do try to pay attention. @ 1:10

You can conveniently ignore that like the Joker, Ra's pinned Batman down and proceeded to gloat over his victory. Nor can you answer to the fact that the ninja were killed with difficulty and required usage of Batman's gadgets. Nor can you tell me how the Joker, armed with knives, a machine gun, and his considerable hand-to-hand prowess, won't be able to replicate the feat.

Robtard
FFS, you're ridiculous. Your entire argument is based on you assuming that the Joker could have done this or that; we go off what we see. I can assume that Batman was toying with him and let him get on top because he wanted to position the Joker for a toss out the window, but that would be a dumb assumption, as assumptions are.

What we see is Batman facing the Joker after he's fought several other guys, been attacked by three dogs, has his equipment malfunctioned and then surprised by the Joker. Yet he still wins the fight.

Yes, the Joker has skills, he isn't a match for Batman though; nothing that is shown proves that he is, nothing. His taking out a street thug with a pencil, subduing a fat cop and then whacking Batman a few times with a knife and pipe doesn't cut what Batman is shown doing.

Master Crimzon
*calms down*.

Look, I'm just going to list my explanations for why I believe that the Joker is on par with Batman:

1. First off, prove that Batman was, in any form, tired or beaten down when he faced the Joker.

2. If the Joker was vastly inferior in comparison to Batman, he would not have surprised him, nor would he have managed to get ANY hits on him.

3. The Joker didn't want to kill Batman, and therefore logically restricted himself from using lethal weaponry and tactics to fight Batman.

4. Even after the dogs were down, and after the Joker was painfully tossed away, Batman and him engaged in fair, hand-to-hand combat. That was perfectly even. If Batman was vastly superior, he would simply have subdued the Joker easily.

5. The Joker pinned him down and had him at his mercy. Even you can't say nothing about the Joker refusing to kill him at that point. You don't get pinned down by a vastly inferior opponent.

6. Unless you're a moron- and Batman is a genius- you don't get surprised and disabled by a significantly lesser opponent.

7. WHAT did Ra's Al Ghul ever do to put him on a level significantly above the Joker?

8. The fact that he managed to use the 'arm-behind-back' move on a trained police officer- and did the same against a street thug- implies that he, at least, has training in H2H, and isn't just a crazy "Beat them up", thug-level combatant.

9. Batman didn't win using his preferred martial arts, but rather resorted to using one of his gadgets, that he hadn't used up until that point.

Bardock42
Okay, so we all agree that Joker is no match for Batman.


Now, could McClane beat Joker in either scenario...well, I don't think so.

Robtard
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
*calms down*.


Good, maybe you'll start thinking logically now.

The scenario has been explained to you repeatedly by several people. The Joker hasn't shown anything that would dictate he could take on Batman in a straight up fight, considering he failed when he fought him while having several advantages.

Imagine if they met in a room and prepared to fight ( Joker with his knives and pipe if you like), do you really think he would stalemate with Batman?

As far as Raj goes, he is the leader of the LOS and he is a trainer of it's men. The various scenes where he is shown teaching Bruce shows he is a highly skilled fighter.

Your "he surprised Batman, he got hits it" isn't proof that he could beat or match Batman either. It just proves that Batman can be hit, but we all knew that already.

Master Crimzon
Now, where did say that the Joker is no match for Batman?

In addition, prove that Ra's Al Ghul trains all of his men. The fact that he can fight with a sword doesn't make him necessarily uber. Please. You consider scenes where he is sparring with Bruce using swords a good indication of power, but when the Joker gets the upper hand on Bruce in a full-blown brawl, it's irrelevant? Please.

And oh my god. The Joker, for all intents and purposes, defeated Batman, but for the last time, didn't kill him not because Batman did let him do so, but rather because the Joker didn't want to kill him. If anything, that fight is not a good indication of Batman's skills.

You've yet to prove why the Joker fought evenly with Batman without any advantages save for weaponry, how could he surprise him if he was 'vastly inferior', or how Batman never recovered the instant the Joker got the upper hand on him. Or how he resorted to using his gadgets when the Joker pinned him down. Or how the Joker wasn't trying to kill him.

But, whatever. We're all arguing off our memory, here, so I suppose we can all solve the debate when the DvD comes out.

Robtard
Na, the Joker didn't physically defeat Batman "for all intents and purposes", he also didn't "spiritually win" that fight. I don't have to wait for the DVD, I remember the fight, I paid attention.

You are extremely funny, you'll argue and argue that Joker is some sort of knife master simply because he carries knives on him and got one stab in on Batman, yet Raj Al Ghul showing his prowess with a sword and training the man who becomes the Batman as no indication that he is a skilled fighter. Funny.

Master Crimzon
Funny, Ra's Al Ghul using a sword in a training sequence makes him 'far superior' to the Joker. Yeah, that makes sense! I suppose the Joker is a punk that would be trashed by any of the random ninja in Begins. Of course!

Nah. I paid attention, too, but you're the one who refuses to, for the last bloody time, refute these facts:

"You've yet to prove why the Joker fought evenly with Batman without any advantages save for weaponry, how could he surprise him if he was 'vastly inferior', or how Batman never recovered the instant the Joker got the upper hand on him. Or how he resorted to using his gadgets when the Joker pinned him down. Or how the Joker wasn't trying to kill him. "

Fail. Instead, you do some sort of odd "I'm smarter than you, you little fanboy!" rant. Smart, heh?

You ignore the fact that the Joker had Batman cornered, subdued, and helpess, and would've easily killed him if that was his intention. Instead, you say "Z0mg Batman owned him!!!!". Whose the one who needs to pay attention more?

Definetly not me.

Robtard
Why do you constantly act stupid when you can't argue a point? It's rather annoying. I never claimed I was smarter than you, just that I paid attention to the movie.

It's already been stated and re-stated. The Joker temporarily got the upper-hand and he had several advantages going for him when he did. Batman has just fought on several other guys, he fought three dogs and his eye-gear glitched. The Joker getting in a few hits and knocking him down does not not equate to him being Batman's equal in a fight. Simple as that.

Also, you'll use Batman's use of gadgets as proof that he isn't above and beyond the Joker in fighting prowess, but you dismiss that the Joker was using a pipe and a knife, besides the dogs and Batman's previous fights to his advantage. Odd, that.

To answer your question. We know Raj trained Bruce Wayne and Bruce Wayne is a complete badass when it comes to hand-2-hand fighting, that should indicate something of Raj's abilities to you. He is also shown to be very skilled with a sword, another indication of his abilites. He is the leader of the LOS, yet another possible indication of his abilities.

Impediment
Wait. What?

Robtard
Originally posted by Impediment
Wait. What?

Dude is arguing that the Joker is equal in fighting prowess to the Batman.

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