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Which side prevails Light or Dark?

Originally posted by wolfpack86
Which side prevails Light or Dark?

The Jedi get curbstomped in force competition. The Jedi win with difficulty in a saber duel. The end.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The Jedi get curbstomped in force competition. The Jedi win with difficulty laughable ease in a saber duel. The end.

Corrected.

Originally posted by Gideon
Corrected.


Where's the laughable ease? Bane and Kun are incredibly proficient with a blade and even though Revan is an unknown, he was #1 in his time. At any rate, what exactly would make it easy for the jedi?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Where's the laughable ease? Bane and Kun are incredibly proficient with a blade and even though Revan is an unknown, he was #1 in his time. At any rate, what exactly would make it easy for the jedi?

Because every one of the Jedi is greater than any of the three Sith. Anakin > Kun. Anakin > Bane. Anakin > Revan. Yoda > Kun. Yoda > Bane. Yoda > Revan. Mace > Bane. Mace > Kun. Mace > Revan.

Originally posted by Gideon
Because every one of the Jedi is greater than any of the three Sith. Anakin > Kun. Anakin > Bane. Anakin > Revan. Yoda > Kun. Yoda > Bane. Yoda > Revan. Mace > Bane. Mace > Kun. Mace > Revan.

When has it EVER been established that Anakin is superior to all 3 in saber combat? Mace and Yoda are likely to be superior but Anakin? Passing something off as fact doesn't make it so.

Oh, I can tell that this is going to be entertaining.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
When has it EVER been established that Anakin is superior to all 3 in saber combat? Mace and Yoda are likely to be superior but Anakin? Passing something off as fact doesn't make it so.

It was established when General Anakin Skywalker engaged Count Dooku of Serenno aboard the Invisible Hand during the Second Battle of Coruscant in the Clone Wars. Skywalker battled Dooku -- "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand year history" and "an even greater Lord of the Sith" (also considered to have been the greatest of the Lost Twenty and the Temple's "most learned student" by Master Yoda; a contention that was never disputed) -- and when he decided to slay the Count, according to the omniscient narrator: "Dooku was already dead. The rest was mere detail." He turned Dooku's wealth, connections, influence, prodigious lightsaber skills and mastery of the Force into "a joke". Windu and Yoda both displayed the ability to defeat the Count, but not to such a deep extent.

If Anakin could turn into such an unstoppable force as to annihilate someone of Dooku's stature, and Advent already handled why Anakin > Kun in lightsaber ability years ago, what on Earth makes you think that Bane or Revan have a chance?

Oh, and for the record, there is no likely. Based on all evidence, Yoda and Windu outclass Bane, Revan, and Kun in swordsmanship.


Edit: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry, forgot the orbalisks. Bane might do major damage after all.

Its not like anakin can't break banes orbalisks if he manages to hit him with tremendous force or anakin could simply disable banes saber which would make things far easier for him.

Bane himself couldn't even break the shell of a single, unattached orbalisk with his lightsaber. Bane >> Anakin, as far as physical strength is concerned. Bane fell at least a kilometer with six people and three (thirty-foot long) drexls on top of him. The orbalisks didn't break. In fact, they just healed the wounds he'd suffered, including a broken arm, in seconds. This, ten years before RoT. Three Jedi striking almost simultaneously couldn't so much as scratch his armor, and the only time one of them managed to cut him he flung them away with the Force and, again, healed the wound instantly. It took his own Force lightning - which a decade prior was capable of vaporizing three individuals and turning their drexl into a charred heap - to kill some of them, when they managed to shake off five force-pikes, each of which was strong enough to put down a bantha.

So no, Anakin cannot in any way break or notably damage the orbalisks, although at least one of the trio could certainly get around them.

I still fail to see who the force bout would be such a curbstomp if Yoda is equal with the most powerful Sith in history, Mace was second to Yoda, and Anakin was called "the most powerful Knight ever known to the Jedi Order." How is it such a decisive victory?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I still fail to see who the force bout would be such a curbstomp if Yoda is equal with the most powerful Sith in history, Mace was second to Yoda, and Anakin was called "the most powerful Knight ever known to the Jedi Order." How is it such a decisive victory?

Mace and Anakin wouldn't be on par with any of the 3 sith lords, with Yoda being the only one putting up so much as a challenge.

Well then how literally should we take that statement about Anakin? I know how literal the Anakin haters will take it, but Jedi Masters are still Jedi Knights. And for him to be called "once the most powerful" would seem to indicate that he would be somewhat formidable against the Sith here, although he might not yet have the control over it yet.

Nobody is debating his force connection, raw abilities, or saber prowess. However, he would not be able to contend with ANY of the other fighters in the force, and as Faunus pointed out, it is very unlikely he would be able to smash through Bane's orbalisks.

Ah, my misunderstanding then. But Bane does have open spaces, right? So even if Anakin, for some reason, couldn't exploit one of those spaces, then surely Mace could via shatterpoint, correct? And if the other two Sith are killed leaving only Bane to face the three best Jedi, they'd be able to overcome him. This is, of course, assuming that they don't get pwned with the force right out the gate.

Originally posted by Faunus
Bane himself couldn't even break the shell of a single, unattached orbalisk with his lightsaber. Bane >> Anakin, as far as physical strength is concerned. Bane fell at least a kilometer with six people and three (thirty-foot long) drexls on top of him. The orbalisks didn't break. In fact, they just healed the wounds he'd suffered, including a broken arm, in seconds. This, ten years before RoT. Three Jedi striking almost simultaneously couldn't so much as scratch his armor, and the only time one of them managed to cut him he flung them away with the Force and, again, healed the wound instantly. It took his own Force lightning - which a decade prior was capable of vaporizing three individuals and turning their drexl into a charred heap - to kill some of them, when they managed to shake off five force-pikes, each of which was strong enough to put down a bantha.

So no, Anakin cannot in any way break or notably damage the orbalisks, although at least one of the trio could certainly get around them. Alright, i'll concede that. But i don't see why anakin wouldn't try to disarm him by cutting his lightsaber if he cannot break his orbalisks as you just proved.

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, I can tell that this is going to be entertaining.


And now, Ladies and Gentleman, KMC SW VS Forum presents another Episode of "Revenge of the Fanboys".



And that it was. You can now go and watch our featured film "Bullshit with Gideon" in the next Anakin or Sidious related topic. Thanks.

Really Gideon. Why do you always keep forgetting the minor details?

a) Dooku completely pwned Anakin and Obi-Wan to the point where he simply took Obi-Wan out of the fight while delivering a backkick at Anakin. Did you somehow miss that fact

b) Nice that you're once again using the RotS Novel as a source which describes a completely different fight. Does Dooku look hard pressed in the movie? Nope. Is the duo coming close to defeating him at any given time of the fight? Nope! Unfortunately for you, the movie still represents the higher level of canon.

c) If you want to stick to the novels interpretation than do it correctly. Following the novels interpretation, Dooku was not allowed to harm Anakin in any way and was adviced to try and push him over to the Dark Side. Notice: That are two clear disadvantages for Dooku as 1) He wasn't allowed to do all he could and 2) tapping into the Dark Side can bring you quite close to your full potential, as seen, for example, when Luke goes mad in RotJ and overcomes the (without a doubt) more skilled Vader.

So Gideon. You can decide now: Either Dooku is still superior to Anakin in terms of lightsaber skills (because he pwned him while Kenobi and Skywalker where double-teaming him) or he lost because he wasn't allowed to go all out and even had to make his opponent stronger by taunting him into using the Dark Side. Or, to give you another way out: You can simply realize that comparing Anakin to Dooku based on that duel in the fashion you always attempt to do it is a grade A, money back guaranteed, steeming and stinking bucket of Canadian horse piss. So. Keep in mind: This is debating and not "Gideon picks everything that supports his opinion and leaves the rest out".



And there we have it again. Yes. Anakin can turn into an unstoppable force to annihilate somebody who isn't allowed to hurt him, if being properly taunted before that. Or he can simply be outsmarted by an inferior force user and duellist, as happened, when he faced his old master Kenobi. Since the opponents here consist of a tactical mastermind (Revan), a guy that is pretty much invunerable by a lightsaber (Bane) and a dude that wields are completely unique weapon with a unique lightsaber style (Kun), I'd love to see your arguments how Anakin would overcome any of them with "laughable ease".



Oh. And what "evidence" would that be, Gideon? Based on the "evidence" we have, Revan and Kun remained undefeated in lightsaber combat throughout their entire career and dominated their respective eras pretty much (at least in their prime). And Bane is still covered with that nice orbalisk armor.

So. I'm waiting for you to come back here and present us evidence how any of the three Sith will be defeated in lightsaber combat with "laughable ease". Or you can take that laughable statement together with your laughable attempts to analyze the source material the resulting laughable opinions, put them on a boat and send them on a nice trip back to Lala-Land. The result might look like that:

http://pics.nase-bohren.de/shipment_of_fail.jpg/1217818911

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Alright, i'll concede that. But i don't see why anakin wouldn't try to disarm him by cutting his lightsaber if he cannot break his orbalisks as you just proved.He could try, sure, assuming he had an iota of sense and could actually deduce that he can't simply plow through his enemy.

Besides, Bane's not some worthless little punk. His working knowledge of the lightsaber forms at least equals that of Anakin, since he'd memorized every single traditional stroke and sequence of each, and had himself mastered Form V while being proficient enough in Soresu to teach it to Zannah. His build is just ridiculous - a "mountain of muscle" with, what, eight or nine inches on Anakin? Add in the orbalisks and you have someone just as skilled (if not more), considerably larger and stronger, and nearly completely invulnerable to any real offensive Skywalker could mount. Anakin has three places he can strike with any effect, and he'll have to do so under the physical onslaught Bane unleashes. Hell, even if he manages to wound Bane - wound as in cut through most of his wrist like Johun did - he'd have to capitalize on it immediately or the Sith would just heal off the damage.

And even if he did destroy Bane's saber - what then? Bane is easily capable of blocking Anakin strikes with any part of his body other than his head, and seeing as how Obi-Wan managed to put Anakin on his ass with a simple kick I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say Bane might be able to disarm him in return and proceed to rip him apart, limb-by-limb.

From what i'v seen in jedi vs sith. Bane's muscularity is far from ridiculous as his build does not even come close to those of roid monkeys like ronnie coleman and jay cutler.

But yes, his build is still pretty muscular but not too overly ridiculous.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And now, Ladies and Gentleman, KMC SW VS Forum presents another Episode of "Revenge of the Fanboys".



And that it was. You can now go and watch our featured film "Bullshit with Gideon" in the next Anakin or Sidious related topic. Thanks.

Really Gideon. Why do you always keep forgetting the minor details?

a) Dooku completely pwned Anakin and Obi-Wan to the point where he simply took Obi-Wan out of the fight while delivering a backkick at Anakin. Did you somehow miss that fact

b) Nice that you're once again using the RotS Novel as a source which describes a completely different fight. Does Dooku look hard pressed in the movie? Nope. Is the duo coming close to defeating him at any given time of the fight? Nope! Unfortunately for you, the movie still represents the higher level of canon.

c) If you want to stick to the novels interpretation than do it correctly. Following the novels interpretation, Dooku was not allowed to harm Anakin in any way and was adviced to try and push him over to the Dark Side. Notice: That are two clear disadvantages for Dooku as 1) He wasn't allowed to do all he could and 2) tapping into the Dark Side can bring you quite close to your full potential, as seen, for example, when Luke goes mad in RotJ and overcomes the (without a doubt) more skilled Vader.

So Gideon. You can decide now: Either Dooku is still superior to Anakin in terms of lightsaber skills (because he pwned him while Kenobi and Skywalker where double-teaming him) or he lost because he wasn't allowed to go all out and even had to make his opponent stronger by taunting him into using the Dark Side. Or, to give you another way out: You can simply realize that comparing Anakin to Dooku based on that duel in the fashion you always attempt to do it is a grade A, money back guaranteed, steeming and stinking bucket of Canadian horse piss. So. Keep in mind: This is debating and not "Gideon picks everything that supports his opinion and leaves the rest out".



And there we have it again. Yes. Anakin can turn into an unstoppable force to annihilate somebody who isn't allowed to hurt him, if being properly taunted before that. Or he can simply be outsmarted by an inferior force user and duellist, as happened, when he faced his old master Kenobi. Since the opponents here consist of a tactical mastermind (Revan), a guy that is pretty much invunerable by a lightsaber (Bane) and a dude that wields are completely unique weapon with a unique lightsaber style (Kun), I'd love to see your arguments how Anakin would overcome any of them with "laughable ease".



Oh. And what "evidence" would that be, Gideon? Based on the "evidence" we have, Revan and Kun remained undefeated in lightsaber combat throughout their entire career and dominated their respective eras pretty much (at least in their prime). And Bane is still covered with that nice orbalisk armor.

So. I'm waiting for you to come back here and present us evidence how any of the three Sith will be defeated in lightsaber combat with "laughable ease". Or you can take that laughable statement together with your laughable attempts to analyze the source material the resulting laughable opinions, put them on a boat and send them on a nice trip back to Lala-Land. The result might look like that:

http://pics.nase-bohren.de/shipment_of_fail.jpg/1217818911

It's nice to know that you come back here to tell us what Dooku was and WASNT allowed to do. However, from Darth Sidious' own admission, if Dooku had been more powerful in the dark side than Anakin, he would have killed Anakin. Please show us where Darth Sidious tells Dooku NOT to hurt Anakin. I do recall Sidious telling Dooku that if Anakin miraculously gets the advantage, Sidious will stop the fight. He didn't, and Dooku was fighting for his life.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It's nice to know that you come back here to tell us what Dooku was and WASNT allowed to do. However, from Darth Sidious' own admission, if Dooku had been more powerful in the dark side than Anakin, he would have killed Anakin. Please show us where Darth Sidious tells Dooku NOT to hurt Anakin. I do recall Sidious telling Dooku that if Anakin miraculously gets the advantage, Sidious will stop the fight. He didn't, and Dooku was fighting for his life.

Oh. You do recall something? Instead of recalling something, you should fetch yourself a copy of the RotS novel and read it. This would enable you to participate in debates with actual knowledge about the things being discussed. And since I know that this will be a totally new experience for you, I'll simply share the following paragraphs from the RotS novel with you:


Count Dooku watched with clinical distaste as the blue-scanned images of Kenobi and Skywalker engaged in a preposterous farce-chase, pursued by destroyer droids into and out of turbolift pods that shot upward and downward and even sideways.

"It will be," he said slowly, meditatively, as though he spoke only to
himself, "an embarrassment to be captured by him." The voice that answered him was so familiar that sometimes his very thoughts spoke in it, instead of in his own. "An embarrassment you can
survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not? And have we not ensured that all the galaxy shares this opinion?"

"Quite so, my Master. Quite so." Again, Dooku sighed. Today he felt
every hour of his eighty-three years. "It is ... fatiguing, to play the
villain for so long, Master. I find myself looking forward to an honorable captivity." (RotS novelization)

Oh? What's that? Apparently, Dooku thought that Sidious planned to have him captured by Anakin. I think it would look pretty stupid if Dooku killed or defeated the guy who should capture him later, eh? Given that plan above, it's pretty clear that Dooku was under the impression that he should lose to Skywalker somehow after taking Kenobi out. Which is exactly what happened.

The other idea makes no sense at all: Dooku was a rather gifted student, noted as "the greatest" Jedi trained in the Temple by Yoda personally. You really think that Sidious would sacrifice an apprentice with Anakins potential, that had yet to be unleashed, just because the young Jedi, not having reached his full potential, might have lost a duel with one of the greatest Jedi there ever was who had become "even more powerful as a Sith"? Normally, Sidious is not known for casting pearls before swine. And still you assume that he was about to do that in this particular situation? When already knowing that Anakin was about to become more powerful than himself or Yoda (which he states in their duel), something that Dooku would never have managed to do? Sounds pretty stupid.

edit

I personally don't think that Anakin can defeat Bane in a pure saber competition, thanks (and only thanks) to the orbalisks- considering Anakin's style is basically all-offense, it will be entirely useless against Bane, and seeing as Anakin isn't known for his accuracy... well, you get the point. He will, however, decimate any of the other two within a saber duel. I've already explained why I believe either Yoda or Mace will kill Bane in a lightsaber duel. Sith are toast in lightsaber duel.

That being said, however, here are certain quotes that PROVE that Dooku wasn't 'messing around' with Anakin or whatnot. Anakin beat him, fair and square:

"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread." - Even though he was holding back, Anakin was pwning Dooku.

"Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical." - Dooku was AFRAID of what would happen if Anakin actually stopped holding back. That's right, afraid.

"No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice." - That's correct. Mid-battle, Dooku decided to go for the kill rather than follow Sidious' orders.

"And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith." - Dooku realized that Sidious betrayed him.

That being said, I believe that's enough to confidently say Anakin beat Dooku fair and square.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I personally don't think that Anakin can defeat Bane in a pure saber competition, thanks (and only thanks) to the orbalisks- considering Anakin's style is basically all-offense, it will be entirely useless against Bane, and seeing as Anakin isn't known for his accuracy... well, you get the point. He will, however, decimate any of the other two within a saber duel. I've already explained why I believe either Yoda or Mace will kill Bane in a lightsaber duel. Sith are toast in lightsaber duel.

That being said, however, here are certain quotes that PROVE that Dooku wasn't 'messing around' with Anakin or whatnot. Anakin beat him, fair and square:

"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread." - Even though he was holding back, Anakin was pwning Dooku.

"Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical." - Dooku was AFRAID of what would happen if Anakin actually stopped holding back. That's right, afraid.

"No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice." - That's correct. Mid-battle, Dooku decided to go for the kill rather than follow Sidious' orders.

"And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith." - Dooku realized that Sidious betrayed him.

That being said, I believe that's enough to confidently say Anakin beat Dooku fair and square.

Oh my god.
It can't be that hard to understand. Dooku entered the fight with certain orders which didn't allow him to kill or defeat Anakin at any cost. Is that clear so far? Because of that he didn't gave Anakin and Kenobi all he could, wasted a chance to easily kill Anakin and after that taunted the young Jedi to unleash his dark emotions allowed Anakin to emerge victorious - not his skill as it was at that point in time. The unnatural dark side boost he received did the job.

Notice that Nick Gillard said that the only thing that made Anakin better with a lightsaber than Obi-Wan were his new found Dark Side abilities. Without that power boosts, Anakin is equal to Kenobi in terms of force use and lightsaber combat. So. Do you really want to tell me that Obi-Wan Kenobi would be able to defeat the likes of Bane, Kun or Revan in a lightsaber duel? I hope not. Assuming that Anakin goes into "godlike" mode is nothing more but turning the exception into the rule - the regular state of the individual. Following that line of thought, RotJ Luke is stronger than OT Vader and Padawan Kenobi a better duellist than Darth Maul. I don't think that arguing like that makes much sense.

After watching a season of House and letting his balls drop, Nai Fohl enters the ring once again! It's so good to see you, man.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And now, Ladies and Gentleman, KMC SW VS Forum presents another Episode of "Revenge of the Fanboys".

LOL. Say, aren't you the same Nai Fohl who just practically begged Darth Sexy not to flame him? And you come here with this? No, Nai, no. That simply won't do. Pick an ideology and stick with it, okay? It's either "LOLZ GUNS A BLAZING" or we make our posts respectful. You don't get to straddle both sides of the fence as if it were a Chris Lee cardboard cut out.



I understand that English is your native tongue. It's evident from the appalling lack of humor in this diatribe; I guess your wit is literally lost in the translation. Meanwhile, I thought I was just a Sidious fanboy; now it's both him and Anakin? I guess that's still less than your quota of Ancient Sith + Yoda and Dooku, so as long as I'm ahead of the curve, I feel accomplished.

Out of curiosity, have you taken a look at Dooku vs. Sidious recently? Some dude bumped the thread for shits and giggles. I particularly loved your argument how "LOL DOOKU PWNZ SIDZ!"

It makes the situation all the more hilarious, especially when you dare criticise me about fanboyism.



Minor details? So I guess what you mean to say is that none of the following matter in the end?



a.) Count Dooku was driven back the entire time by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, was forced to overwhelm Kenobi with the Force rather than disarm him with his LOLZ UBER MAKASHI, and then had his Super Battle Droids fire upon the Jedi in an attempt to save his old ass. Did you somehow miss that, Nai? Or does the German edition cut out the parts you don't like?



b.1) According to Matthew Stover (a man whose word I trust more than yours), George Lucas was heavily involved in the editing process of the novelization and played a key role in drafting it. George Lucas > you. Meanwhile, even if it were totally different, narrative and character thoughts displayed in the novelization are just as canon as anything else.



b.2) Whoa, wait a second, my Aryan brother. You're telling me you can make out the Count's expression, even though most of the duel doesn't take into account his facial features, since they are 100% computer generated? I guess Palpatine really did have to take a shit during his fight with Windu.



b.3) LOLZ THEY SURE ARE! Since, since the first saber clashes, they dominated the fight, pushing Dooku all across the General's quarters. Ironically enough, he was able to push Skywalker and Kenobi back during their duel on Geonosis, but somehow is unable to do so here.



Unfortunately for you, the movie doesn't seem to be your argument's best friend at the moment.



An outright lie. Dooku's own thoughts during the duel in the novelization, once he realized that he was being suckered was "the comedy was over. It was time to kill."

Does kill have another meaning in German? Wouldn't that be ironic.



Your familiarity with Canadian horse piss is rather disturbing, but not necessarily surprising. Here's my decision. Count Dooku's alarming egotism prevented him from using the obvious Force advantage and sought to subdue Skywalker through lightsaber skills (his preferred method of fighting) and failed miserably when Skywalker got pissed. Isn't it cool? I found a fourth option!



Where again did Kenobi outsmart Anakin? Being in a better state of mind =/= outsmarting someone.



Oh, well in that case... I forgot that being undefeated in lightsaber combat in one's era, in one's career, and dominated one's respective era clearly means that he or she is better than everyone else in another period. Guess Yoda and Windu kick the shit out of Ragnos. I wish you'd told me that sooner. Would've given me a more efficient way for curbstomping your pro-Ancient Sith arguments



Self portrait, Nai? Really not necessary. But I'm pretty sure that's the only way someone would take notice of how you look: you have to force your picture upon them. Nasty.

Originally posted by Gideon
After watching a season of House and letting his balls drop, Nai Fohl enters the ring once again! It's so good to see you, man.


Attempt to be funny or insulting number 243 million. And once more: Failed.



Did I miss the link to the stuff you've quoted above this comment or does it simply not exist? Gosh! Where did I beg Darth Sexy not to flame me? Suffering from that delusions again, Gideon?



That would be German.



Doesn't it get boring trying to insult people because of a "lack of humor", Gideon? Because that certainly is the case having to read it in pretty much every damn post you produce here.



Wow. After re-reading the thread, you have once more failed to actually understand what I was posting there? Hilarious. The "You 4 year old opinions, that I've still not been capable of grasping due to my lack of reading comprehension suck" flame attempts do also get boring, Gideon. Especially as they still lack any basis.



I "dare"? It doesn't take too much courage to call some teenager a fanboy, Gideon. Especially since, considering you recently claimed that NJO Luke Skywalker can't be ahead of DE Sidious, you don't have much left to argue that you aren't a Sidious fanboy, huh?



Did I miss the sequence when the two Jedi came actually close to defeating Dooku in the lightsaber fight? Apparently he still had enough time to force rape Kenobi, despite the fact that he had two Jedi attacking him. So obviously they weren't even able to give him enough trouble in lightsaber combat to have him focus on that.



George Lucas > the novel. Really, Gideon. You want to tell me that character thoughts, which are based on actions that did never happen (movie > novel), can be canon. So Anakin, for example, is hurt by Dooku calling him a "fraud" and "posturing child" despite the fact that, actually, Dooku never did that? Sure...



Yeah. Right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgPQxebCdjY

0:18 - Dooku smiling after the initial attack, casually taunting Anakin for fun.
0:30 - Dooku parries a simultaneous attack by Obi-Wan and Anakin, using only one hand. Gosh. He's under hard pressure there.
0:32 - Dooku force pushes Kenobi aside as if he is nothing. Pwned.
0:49 - Dooku force rapes Kenobi and casually kicks Anakin into the next wall.
1:03 - Dooku receives a force aided boot into the face, lands on his feet and keeps fighting as if nothing has happened instantly.
1:20 - Dooku locking sabers with Anakin. Notice how Anakin is struggling and moaning while Dooku simply keeps talking as if nothing happens (and hell...Anakin has a freaking artificial arm and is still unable to overpower Dooku physically there).

Yeah. Right. Obi-Wan and Anakin (while getting shitted on by Dooku) are completely dominating the fight. Holy shit.



See above.



Yes. But those thaughts are an reaction to the fact that he gets almost "teamed to death" by Obi-Wan and Anakin multiple times before. Something that doesn't happen in the movie. And after that thought in the novel, he force rapes Kenobi and then taunts Anakin. But notice. In the novel he taunts him by calling him a fraud and a postunring child which is clearly Dun Mφch. In the movie he tells him to use his anger and hatred. Hell. Dooku is still trying to convert Anakin to the Dark Side when they lock their sabers in the movie, something that never happens in the novel, because Dooku has already decided that he has to kill Skywalker there.

Yet unfortunatelly, in the RotS commentary, Lucas specifically says that Dooku words there are designed to convert Anakin and not to destabilize him. So, apparently, he didn't want to defeat Anakin there, otherwise it would be utter nonsense to tell him to use his dark feelings.



The point is, Gideon, that by telling Anakin to use his anger and hatred, it was Dooku himself that enabled Anakin (who is still moaning in the saber-lock at that time) to unleash his anger. The only reason Anakin had to "get pissed" was when Dooku owned him and Obi-Wan with the force. But he isn't able to overcome Dooku before Dooku tells him to utilize this emotions. In the novel, Anakin figures that out for himself. In the (higher level of canon) movie version it's Dooku starting the process.



Wow. Did it ever occure to you, dear Gideon, that you are applying the same line of thought when it comes to the PT/OT era Jedi and Sith? They are noted as the best of their era - they must be able to easily defeat everybody from previous eras. And "curbstomping" the pro-Ancient Sith arguments? When did that happen? At the second Gideons-dreams-come-true-convention in Lala-Land? As far as I remember, your role in those debates was to post "I agree with Lightsnake" and keep repeating allready defeated arguments like a broken record.

And nice attempt to draw the attention away from the fact that you still didn't present an argument how the Jedi will defeat the Sith in a lightsaber fight with "laughable ease".



Aww. Too dumb that they removed the original picture from their site. Here is the one that was once included into the posting:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/veilofdarkness/sof.jpg

And no. I don't have to force pictures of myself on people to have them take notice of how I look. They can find pics of me in every dictionary, looking under the key words "awesome", "wow", "God", "superhuman" and "DA MAN"...

Movies>novels if something is contradicted. In this case, adding to the duel, in a part not shown in the film (therefore not contradicted) is to be considered canon.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Attempt to be funny or insulting number 243 million. And once more: Failed.

So, I found myself doubled over in laughter at this opening remark. Allow me to get this straight: you begin this whole ordeal with numerous insults and jabs directed at my person, correct? I mean, come on, Nai. Aren't you the Nazi who styles himself as "da man"? Be man enough to admit that you came here throwing out the verbal assaults. And when I dish them back out, it's suddenly "LOLZ UR ATTEMPT TO BE FUNNY IS STOOPID" and then you pick an (unfunny) arbitrary number? Jesus Christ, this is getting old. You do this every single time, and these lines were much better when ACstyles or Nebaris were using them.



Easy, Nai. Such sensitive ego. And, yes, you did whine about DS trying to flame you. Being the victim of a poor upbringing doesn't give you carte blanche to play the victim whenever you like, Nai.



Yeah, left off the "n't" to "is".



Rehashing opening salvos, criticising someone's sense of humor, and doing so in a remarkably unwitty fashion does not qualify as humor. Seriously, did you shut off the DVD player and read my last six arguments with AC and Nebaris and decide to borrow everyone else's lines?



Why, golly gee, Nai, I figured since you were the one who brought up the whole fanboyism topic, I'd bring up some of your finer moments. Hey, everyone, this is the guy who spearheaded the "LOLZ DOOKU IS SO MUCH MORE POWERFUL, BADASS, AND SMARTER THAN SIDIOUZ" series of jokes that plagued this forum. Come on, Nai. If you're going to get hostile and defensive over your in-character **** ups, don't bring up fanboyism at all. I diagnose you with terminal hypocrisy. Cure? Pull your head out of your ass. Dr. House would be so disappointed.



Your experience with "handling" teenagers notwithstanding, Nai, it clearly does. You come, we argue, you leave. You watch your season of House, feign a limp, grab a cane (you two are the same age, right?), and wobble back on here as if your presence matters. Once you start getting burned in your little flame war, you wine and go for one of Nebaris's patented approach. He does it a lot better than you.



LOL. So you do read everything I type on here. Thanks for confirming my theories, Nai. You've been waiting, watching, reading. Desiring to debate me again but oh-so-fearful. And I said that Skywalker didn't generate or demonstrate power to be on par with Sidious's until late NJO and DN. Though I do appreciate your ability to draw conclusions from nothing. It's like magic.



Is Dooku resistent to lightsabers? Is his cape and outfit made of cortosis? Because you make it sound like they were swinging away and he was either engaging them or not caring at all, when the truth is that he gained a momentary advantage over the two of them. And as I recall, wasn't his ass knocked over a balcony?



Narrative that doesn't necessarily conflict with the movie, Nai. Here I thought Nazis were educated.



Right. So, since Darth Sidious was all shits and giggles during his duel with Yoda (and Yoda didn't so much as crack a grin), I guess he obviously owned Yoda!

Your hypocrisy's showing, Nai. Cover it up, please. The rest of us can't handle the toxic exposure you produce.



Or, gosh, maybe he's using the Force to compensate for his physical inferiority.

Naw. You're right.



The only thing 'pwned' here is your argument. Given that he would later have his guards attack, it's obvious that Dooku knocked Kenobi aside out of desperation. And no one denied his superiority in the Force.



Ah, yes. Casually. Which is why he clearly shows signs of strain by dropping the walkway on Kenobi and is knocked down over the balcony.



Force-aided boot to the face? Confirm it was Force-aided and then confirm that it was all macho Dooku and no Force assistance for his recovery.



Yes, he makes one grunt and ergo, he must be suddenly gasping for air like an asthmatic. Never mind that he actually does knock Dooku back and that Dooku wasn't talking as if nothing is happening, judged by his pause and grunt of the word "anger".



You're very formulaic in your posts, Nai. Predictability is definitely something you excell in. Holy shit. See? I can do it too.



I looked at it for all of five seconds before dismantling it.



Right. Sidious says "strike me down!" to Luke Skywalker. Does that mean he really wants to die?



I want the exact quote.

You have yet to prove it was his intention. And if it was, it makes Dooku all the more the fool.



Actually, it's not the same thing at all. Statements for Yoda and Palpatine apply to all eras. Likewise, you can keep telling me that the Ragnos4Prez! fanclub wasn't beaten, but Faunus had the balls to admit it. 1.) You're all gone. 2.) It's not even accepted at EoD. 3.) You're so frightened to post here.



You were debating me about Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan, my Nazi friend. Pick an argument first.



And there goes all doubts of you trying to be like Greg House. LOL, Nazis don't need to model themselves after fictional TV characters. Especially when they are American and being portrayed by British characters. Doesn't your whole ideology have a problem with those two countries?

So both House and Hitler have a problem with you, Nai. Shame, shame, shame.

Originally posted by Gideon
So, I found myself doubled over in laughter at this opening remark. Allow me to get this straight: you begin this whole ordeal with numerous insults and jabs directed at my person, correct? I mean, come on, Nai. Aren't you the Nazi who styles himself as "da man"? Be man enough to admit that you came here throwing out the verbal assaults. And when I dish them back out, it's suddenly "LOLZ UR ATTEMPT TO BE FUNNY IS STOOPID" and then you pick an (unfunny) arbitrary number? Jesus Christ, this is getting old. You do this every single time, and these lines were much better when ACstyles or Nebaris were using them.

Let me get this straight for you, Gideon: I'm provoking you with ad hominem phrases and you jump on them like a mad muppet because your King-of-the-Ring position in this forum means everything to you. And now look out: I'm just saying "Hey, Joe. You aren't funny." Your reaction: "Nazi!" Can it be that somebody takes the internet a little bit too serious?



My "poor upbringing" enabled me to properly understand words written down in front of me. Something that you're noble upbringing apparently didn't manage to do. Oh wait. I'm talking to a person who apparently thinks that every German is a Nazi...nfc.



*Yawn* I will point out again, once more, that I neither stated that Dooku is more powerful or smarter than Sidious. If you'd read the thread once more, the argument circled around Dooku being possible able to take Sidious in a lightsaber fight and an "all out match" (winning with his lightsaber abilities). Did you get that now, Gideon?



Did it ever occur to you, Gideon, that people can get bored arguing the same stuff over and over again? See. I got bored, checked EoD, found nothing interesting, came here, did a few posts and I may be gone tomorrow. And my presence here certainly doesn't matter - except for you, and - apparently - Advent who enjoyed seeing a post of me here again. So what?



As a matter of fact, Gideon, I didn't even take a look into this forum for - uh - a damn long period of time. I didn't even waste two seconds of my free-time thinking about you and your pretty thoughts on a B-movie universe. The fact, that you have "theories" about me actually confirms that you waste much more time thinking about me, than I could ever affort to spent with Gideon-related-thoughts. Believe it or not.



Ah. The "Nazi" again. Creative flaming of a person living in Germany, indeed. No. Narrative doesn't necessarily conflict with the movie, Gideon. The point is that narrative does conflict with the movie when character thoughts and so on are based on incidents which are simply not happening in the movie version. It's that easy. Dooku can't be surprised by Anakin and Obi-Wan almost double-teaming him with coordinated manouvers, when nothing like that happens in the movie. He can't develop the thought that it's about to "end this comedy" because he struggles with the two Jedi, while he floors them, taunts them etc.



Are you willingly ignoring the point, Gideon? The mere fact that he has the time to knock Obi-Wan aside, while he keeps duelling Anakin, actually shows that the Jedi didn't generate enough pressure on him with their lightsaber abilities to keep him from using his force abilities.



Which doesn't change the fact that he apparently has enough time to turn his back on Anakin, think about what he could do to Kenobi and use the force (without any distraction from Anakin attacking him from behind) to pwn Kenobi and simultaneously floor Anakin. Either Anakin was standing up there and was sipping a Martini, watching his former master dealing with the battle droids, or he was completely inable to force Dooku to focus on him with his famed saber abilities. I think the latter idea is the more logical one.



He is hit, lands on his feet and is immediately ready to fight again. It doesn't matter if that kick was "force-aided" or not and it doesn't matter if Dooku used no Force assistance for his recovery. The fact is that Anakin, capitalizing on Dooku being busy with burrying Obi-Wan, was not capable to take Dooku out in that situation.



Yes. He pushes Dooku back after Dooku has told him to use his anger and hatred which - apparently - Anakin does right after that.



Nope. But what would have happened if Vader had decide not to ignite his lightsaber to stop the blade of his son, eh? See. Dooku counted (haha) on Sidious. He thought Sidious would stop Anakin from killing him. Instead he was betrayed. Sidious in RotJ did count on Vader to stop Luke - had Vader developed the thought that it might be a good idea to have Luke cut right through Sidious face, Sidious would have been dead. Period.



See quote in the other thread. The only "foolish" act of Dooku here was to thrust his master.



It's not the statements, Gideon. It's the interpretations. You take the quotes and turn them into ultimate and unbeatable weapons. I may explain it to you once again. Sidious can be the most powerful Sith Lord in the history of the SW universe. Now...does that mean that Ragnos can't beat him? Nope. Yoda can be the most devastating foe the Dark Side has ever seen. Does that give him a guaranteed victory in a lightsaber fight against Exar Kun? Nope. And that's it. That was the entire point for the entire time. I hope you get it now. But just to answer that:

1) We're all gone because, apparently, we have better things to do with our time than discussing SW related topics. Or read forums in general.

2) I haven't seen a SW related thread on EoD recently. If it's "not accepted" as opinion at EoD (which I doubt), than it's not accepted by the same people who didn't accept it here. Guess who cares...

3) If you can use the search function, Gideon, you would see that I went into discussion arguing against the Ancient Jedi and Sith rather often, which did often lead to rather heated arguments with IKC, Janus and Illustrious which usually ended with us agreeing to disagree.

And you really think that people that already crossed their mid-20s are "frightened" to post here? You should go and do a reality check, mate.

Do you think that dodging the point once more gets you anywhere, Gideon. I'll might point out that people referred to me as "the lawyer" around here, because I usually kept bringing up details to everybodys attention. Here's the detail: You said that the Jedi will defeat the Sith in lightsaber combat with "laughable ease". Present your arguments or rest your case.



Tell me, Gideon. Are you're attempting to "model yourself" after Grievous. He appears in your avatar and your signature. Oh wait. Can it be, that the House picture just is there, because I liked the face with the "Lord save me from stupidity" phrase below it? Oh noez. So keep calling me "House", call me "Nazi" or "Hitler's mom" if you wish to Gideon. Doesn't change the fact that you're out of my life, whenever I hit the "x" on the right top of my browser, while vice versa I haunt you in your dreams.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let me get this straight for you, Gideon: I'm provoking you with ad hominem phrases and you jump on them like a mad muppet because your King-of-the-Ring position in this forum means everything to you. And now look out: I'm just saying "Hey, Joe. You aren't funny." Your reaction: "Nazi!" Can it be that somebody takes the internet a little bit too serious?

You recognize me as "king-of-the-ring" around here? Aw, thanks, Nai. Endorsement from a Nazi. That's about as useful as stock from Enron, though I do appreciate the thought behind it. Anyways, as I said, these statements of yours are rehashed and diluted statements taken from ACstyles and Nebaris. You say I'm not funny, I say you're not funny, you say I'm throwing a fit, I say you're throwing a fit. I'm going to state the obvious, you're going to continue using the same formula that you used however many years ago you joined this forum. It's not like you're covering any new ground here, sport, or making some sort of statement.



Every German a Nazi? No, certainly not. I've got major German ancestry, actually, and it's a language I'm dying to learn (though I hear it's obscenely difficult). No, it's merely a little bait in this war of jabs and jests. Though I'm not surprised you take such offense to it. Who's getting riled, again?



False, sir.





Oh, we both know you won't be gone tomorrow. You're much too addicted to me, Nai. You've practically hit on me with every post.



Such hostile denial, Nai. Don't get too riled up about it. Besides, your cover's been blown.



He was being pushed back by them the whole time, used a desperate Force push to floor Kenobi, had his droids attack (all the while still being driven back by Anakin), and gained a momentary advantage, disabled one, was knocked back by Anakin until he was eventually disarmed and killed. I'd say that that applies.



He wasn't dueling Anakin, Nai. Otherwise he would have been cut in half the second he dropped his guard to lay waste to Kenobi. Unless you think the great Count is saber proof.



Right. Because thinking to disable Kenobi is clearly a monumentous effort for Dooku regarding time. Is it your goal to make him look like an idiot? Perhaps Anakin was sitting on his ass, overcome by hatred? Perhaps he was building up his strength? Who knows.



Ah, you brought up the Force-aided thing, not me. But I do appreciate how you changed your mind. And yes, it does matter. He knocked Dooku into an inferior position.



Judging from the way that Dooku was being pushed back the entire duel, Anakin was building up the rage and hatred prior to that. I'm sure Dooku's advice, however, just made him even more pissed.

Except Sidious was shackled, so I don't know what exactly Dooku thought he'd do. Unless he's an idiot. The point is that Sith have a tendancy to say shit like that to goad their enemies or to set them off balance, not because they actually are suicidal.



Pretty dumb, yeah.



I take quotes and turn them into ultimate and unbeatable weapons? Thank you. Though, of course, you try to save face with the any given Sunday rule. Curious how you tend to ignore it for this situation, though.



Yes, that's why you created a whole new set for just that purpose. Jesus, Nai, you'll have to do better.



I've seen statements by Deception, the biggest Ragnos fanboy I've ever seen. He's totally unwilling to debate it here or there. He knows he can't prove the Ragnos4Prez! to be correct.



More often than them, Nai, which doesn't say much.



It was a provocation, man. I'm curious, though... can I get a list of things that you say that are baiting and things that are serious? Because you react so differently to some things I say, and I don't want to hurt your feelings.



Nai, I'm not dodging the issue. I'm telling you how this is going to be. You're going to decide if we're going to debate Anakin vs. Dooku or you can decide if we're going to debate the purpose of the thread. I'm not going to debate both, simultaneously. You will pick one and I'll happily argue this. Though, a Nazi with reading comprehension would point out that I said "laughable ease" before I remembered Bane had his orbalisks.



No, though I'm flattered you compare me to Grievous. Tactical genius with a great reputation? Could be worse. I don't model my entire personality after him, though, as you do with House. Come on Nai. You've been exposed.

Huh, glad I'm not the only one who drew parallels to Nai's first outburst and his avatar.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Huh, glad I'm not the only one who drew parallels to Nai's first outburst and his avatar.

And that isn't to say House isn't awesome. But one ought to find one's own identity rather than mimic that of another. Especially when he or she is a fictional character.

Originally posted by Gideon
And that isn't to say House isn't awesome. But one ought to find one's own identity rather than mimic that of another. Especially when he or she is a fictional character. Oh, but why do that and live in reality when fiction is so much fun?!

Originally posted by Gideon
You recognize me as "king-of-the-ring" around here? Aw, thanks, Nai. Endorsement from a Nazi. That's about as useful as stock from Enron, though I do appreciate the thought behind it.

Apparently you have forgotten that I live in Europe, Gideon. We have a long lasting tradition when it comes down to ship kings into the afterlive with creative methods. But I'm really surprised you like the thought of being Peter III, which is visited by Alexei Orlow. Or would you enjoy a little bit of Spanish history more? You could be Peter I. and I will assume the role of Henry II.



Well, Gideon. As I told you many times before, you don't have the slightest idea what "flaming" is. A hint: It's not about to throw a series of random insults at the opponent, no, it shall be done in a way that enables the opponent to laugh his ass off while getting insulted. And since you keep LOLing here, I guess I'm doing that job far better than yourself. But well...we both know that this is the status quo. You do something...I come and do it better. The destiny of the everlasting inferior.



Excuse me, Gideon. May I point out for you once again what I, according to your humble oppinion, should have said? Let me refresh your memory.



Ah well. Now let's have a look at the things you've quoted. What do I read there? "Sidious might be a more powerful force user compared to Dooku". Interresting, isn't it? The exact opposite of what you've claimed I've said. And the rest? Surprise. It's exactly what I've claimed to have written down in the text. And that is that Dooku would be able to overcome Sidious using his lightsaber. And now? Since you don't have the ability to proof that Dooku can't block Sidious lightning (no, you can't) and since you also can't proof that Sidious would be able to take Dooku with a lightsaber (considering that Dooku was ahead of Mace Windu in that department who, in turn, was able to stalemate Sidious with his lightsaber abilities only), I wonder what you have to say, Gideon?

So what have you archieved by digging out a three year old (!) thread, with the exception to demonstrate your inability to read and the inability to "own" me with that?



You think that is the case, Gideon? You probably shouldn't talk about "addiction", considering that you are the guy here, who's profile is littered with attacks on Janus and IKC (even though they didn't come here fore years). Apparently your latent hatred on the people called "Antedeluvians" is consuming you from the inside. And I can totally understand that. After all they (we?) have used any possible opportunity to make you look like a fool. And now I visit again and do the same. What a tragedy.

And naturally I'm hitting you with almost every post. As you think of no end of yourself and possess an immeasurable ego, you simply are the biggest target around here.



Hate to burst your bubble, there, Gideon, but the only cover which has been blown is your own. You can freely admit that you're just a squalid dwarf among giants, who has managed to climp on their shoulders and, possible, look a little bit farther than they could. And because of that, he does now think, he is greater than those titans. Ironically, you're still the same pitiful vermin you always were, that is just allowed to enjoy a bit of fresh air and sunlight, because the gods are on vacation recently.



I have to say that it's kind of funny, how the same person, which explained two posts ago, that it is impossible to tell what Dooku was feeling or thinking, now steps in here and tells me the guy has been desperate. Can you please stop contradicting yourself?

And please. Dooku is fighting two Jedi. Despite of that he still manages to take one of them out for a short time first (force pushing Kenobi) and finally simultaneously floors them with a single demonstration of his superior force abilities. Yet, somehow, despite of those facts, it was them who were controlling the fight?



Sure, Gideon. First he is "pushed back by them the whole time" and now Anakin is taking another time-out in the fight, maybe to enjoy his second breakfest, while Dooku force pushs Kenobi out of the match. So Anakin is simply watching instead of attacking the (somehow distracted) Sith Lord? Is that now a hint to the overwhelming teamwork of the two Jedi or just a testament to Anakin's superior abilities in lightsaber combat?



I’ve got to be honest. I’m confused, Sasquatch. What is it now? Is Anakin constantly driving back Dooku with his supposed uber lightsaber skill, just taking a timeout here and there to allow Dooku to unleash his force ownage, or can it be, that he simply isn't good enough to built up constant pressure on the Sith Lord?



Yes, after Dooku wasted almost 10 seconds with dropping the nice metal structure on the – already knocked out – Kenobi. So whoopie-di-doo. Anakin managed to knock somebody into an inferior position who wasn't even looking at him because he was busy with unleashing force ownage on Kenobi? Impressive.



Can we please skip the day-trip to Unnecessary Land and instead simply concede, that Anakin in his normal, regular and every day shape is in no way able to match Dooku with a lightsaber?

Quite frankly is simply idiotic to discuss Anakin's lightsaber abilities based on a situation in which he had a reason to freak out, was then told to use the anger and hatred possibly building him throughout the fight . Because the odds of that happening in another lightsaber duel that he enters are roughly on par with me finding the Loch Ness monster in my bathtub. And without that, following Nick Gillards rating of the lightsaber duellists in the SW universe, he isn't more proficient with the weapon than Kenobi. Do you also believe that Kenobi would be able to win a lightsaber duel against Dooku ?

Oh yes. Now the guy that, in your eyes, without a doubt, is the most powerful Sith Lord in the history of the SW universe is stopped by handcuffs, because it fits your argument. And I still don't know where you get the "suicidal" from. Dooku had survived Anakin and Kenobi together and even managed to floor them both with his abilities. So why, please tell me, should he assume that Skywalker alone would be able to defeat him – using the Dark Side or not?

I think what Dooku expected when taunting Anakin was that he would go through another outburst of emotions, possible attacking him with uncontrolled anger. A situation that Dooku could have managed with his fencing abilities and his superior force powers (and possible back-up he expected from Sidious). And suddenly he was confronted with an individual using the Dark Side in a controlled fashion, which gave him a boost in skill that Dooku hadn't expected.



I was thinking about "ultimate and unbeatable weapons" like the Death Star, Gideon, which tend to get vaporized by small space-vessels. And I ignore the "any given sunday rule" for what situation, exactly?

Over the time-span of multiple years, despite the fact that several people did throw the fact right into your face, you've constantly ignored that none of the quotes you were capable of bringing about Sidious, still didn't have the effect to make him the unbeatable God of all Sith Lords. See. He might be the "most powerful one" or the "best Dark Side user" with the "greatest force knowledge" and so on and so forth. Is he also the best when it comes down to mano-a-mano combat? You don't know. Is he able to deal with amulet/sceptre blasts? You don't know. Is he familiar with every damn force ability spawned by the ancient Sith which they usually kept for themselves? You can't tell. So what? I can simply say that Sadow will annihilate Sidious using his amulets in the matter of seconds, and everything you can say against that is: "No. I don't think so", and list the quotes once more, which can do almost everything – except for proving that Sidious can take the blast of a Sith amulet. And of course I could state that Ragnos might be 99,5 % of Sidious in terms of force ablities, but 200 % better in armed combat. Who's going to win an all out duel? See? All you have archieved here is gathering ammunition for arguing against a great void filled with speculations without ever reaching any conclusion. If you're lucky, your attempts to do so will once make it into the "Almost Magazine".



Gosh, Gideon. Wasn't you the guy that used any possible opportunity for EoD-bashing in the famed "Oh look. There is almost nobody posting there"-fashion? Yes? Well. Can it be that your "You build a new forum to discuss there" somehow colides with your usual "Look. Nobody there" rants? In fact, taking a look at the Arena Section, the last thread putting two individuals from the SW universe against each other, was started a year ago.



Did we just slip into some alternate dimension where I actually give a flying ducky about what Deception says or does?

As a matter of fact, the inside scoop is this: You can call out people for not being able to proof their opinions to be correct all day long, which doesn't change the fact that you're equally inable to do the same for your opinions. The only way to definetly proof that character X is able to beat character Y is to have some source which includes a fight between those two characters. And even then, considering the LFL-policy of not tossing out "power level charts" or make any "clear cuts" in the comparance of characters (especially from different eras) and the general setting of fights in the SW universe, people could still keep arguing about the issue without reaching any conclusion.



Ah well. Do you still suffer from the delusion that I do or did discuss my personal opinions here?



I give you a hint: If you should ever "hurt my feelings", Supergirl, I'll verbally break you down into so many different pieces, that even my grandmother, who can do a 1,000 piece puzzle of clear blue sky in less than an hour, will never be able to finish putting you back together again, even when she does go back in time to when her vision was perfect. But this will never happen, because on every occasion you're attempting to throw some insults in my direction, I get one of the two following visions in my head: a) Mr.Ed attempting to curse people in foreign languages; b) a pimpled teenage boy shouting at his computer and jumping up and down in front of his desk like a mad monkey on speed. Both are far too entertaining and funny to allow me to get angry before I can laugh my ass off.

But as general advice: I take nothing, and that means N-O-T-H-I-N-G, in this forum seriously and I act according to that rule. If you want quite and peaceful conversation, you can have it via PM - this here is the place for entertainment.



Oh looky. You're dodging the issue once again. What effect it has on Kun and Revan, that you did take Bane's orbalisk into consideration now? None? Great. So I'd still love to see your arguments for Revan and Kun being defeated with "laughable ease" by any of the three Jedi here in a lightsaber fight. In case that this kind of "multitasking" is too much for your brain you can simply admit that, instead of talking around the issue again and again.



I was more thinking about him being a coward that runs away from every confrontation and hides behind entire armies.



Aren't you the guy that told me two postings ago that I'm certainly not like House? Gosh. Your not only inable to deliver sound arguments, you can't even come up with flames that don't contradict eachother. Until you finally manage to do that, you can stop bugging me, because I find your particular brand of psychobablry about as useful and about as effective as fairy dust. Not to mention that it is about as entertaining as staring at a test pattern.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Oh, but why do that and live in reality when fiction is so much fun?!

I simply have to ask. Is that you on this picture?

http://mitglied.lycos.de/veilofdarkness/reality.jpg

I'm going to dispense with all the flaming and jabbing here, Nai. Because now, you've been caught and there's no reason in perpetuating this any longer. But I am looking forward to your responses.

On the subject of Darth Sidious versus Count Dooku:

Your claim is that you originally said on that thread that Count Dooku "might" be able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel and that he "might" be able to defeat Sidious in an all out match. I've taken the liberty of posting what you actually said:



...Essentially, you completely lied about what you claimed to have said. In the quoted diatribe, you make it clear that there is no doubt in your mind that Count Dooku would emerge victorious over Darth Sidious in any setting, all the while refusing to acknowledge his superiority in the Force. Now, of course, we know that this is all dogshit anyway; Lucas's stance on the matter is that Dooku is lumped in "with Maul", in that he never even had the potential to become more powerful than Darth Sidious.



Yoda was able to subdue Dooku's lightning on Geonosis without any visible effort. Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to channel Dooku's lightning into his lightsaber without any visible effort (something that Anakin Skywalker replicated in their duel on Tatooine in Star Wars: The Clone Wars novel. In contrast, Yoda was overpowered during the opening salvo in the Chancellor's office and knocked unconscious and showed remarkable physical strain in holding the lightning at bay during the final moments of their fight. Also in contrast, Yoda was disarmed handily by a single gout of the Sith Lord's lightning, despite the fact that Yoda was able to augment his physical strength to ridiculous proportions and even broke lightsaber locks with Palpatine in their duel; Mace Windu, despite the metaphysical properties of Vaapad allowing him to channel the lightning into and back out of his lightsaber, was nearly killed by his own blade under the force of the Emperor's lightning, despite the fact that he outmassed Palpatine, had proper leverage, and was capable of augmenting his physical strength to utterly annihilate an army of Super Battle Droids and fight on even footing with Kar Vastor. So, actually, even though it isn't my burden to disprove, all evidence points to Dooku being unable to contend with Darth Sidious's Force lightning.

On the subject of Darth Sidious versus the Ancient Sith



Once again, your hypocrisy has been exposed, Nai. You refuse to apply the "any given Sunday" conditions to any arena but until it pertains to Sidious. You have no problem stating that "Character X" would crush "Character Y" even though the battles we debate are purely speculative in nature. I appreciate the attorney-esque approach to maneuvering through loopholes, but this one won't work. While we all make room for the fact that it is possible for an inferior character to defeat the superior one, conditions have to be proper for such an event. Meaning, as common sense dictates, the more powerful character will be pronounced winner unless there are noticeable conditions or circumstances (i.e. Windu's Vaapad, amulet blasts, ect.).

Likewise, I will also point out that you once refused to accept statements of Palpatine being the strongest. Now you do, of course. But so do Janus and the rest. But it practically pains you to admit it.



That's obvious, Nai. As I said, the battles we debate are totally speculative, but that doesn't stop any of us from saying "Character X would totally crush Character Y", unless you button all of your entries here with the "any given Sunday" rule. You don't. So, again, don't be obtuse by trying to whip it out here to save face.

If you want to slide in there that the quotes were taken from three years ago and you've changed your minds, then be like House and have the balls to admit that you were wrong.

On the subject of IKC, Janus, and my profile



I've simply done what they themselves have done in the past. Janus's profile is a testament to his self-glorification and his disdain for others. Why should you all be exempt from similar treatment? I've simply taken statements you've all made (i.e. IKC taking DS to task for trolling and yet demonstrating the same conduct in the span of five minutes and Janus's pre-PT bias that compelled him to make statements like "BANDON > KENOBI!". Don't bother trying to save their reputations or act like I'm picking on them. I've simply done what they've done, except mine show how stupid a lot of the things they have said and done are. We all poke fun at it.

On the subject of egotism









Don't lecture me on egotism, Nai. This is the sort of thing that makes appearances in my profile, for the record. The same thing I did to IKC. I'm sure House makes egotism and narcissism look cool, but it's not.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I simply have to ask. Is that you on this picture?

http://mitglied.lycos.de/veilofdarkness/reality.jpg


Wow that's a lot of bitching for someone in their mid 20s. May I ask you why you think escape has to prove Dooku CANT block Sidious' lightning? Why would you even bother asking him to prove a negative, especially since there's ZERO evidence showing Dooku has those capabilities. Windu had to use all of strength and vaapad just to hold the lightning back. Dooku doesn't have those same capabilities and until YOU can prove dooku can somehow magically block Sidious' lightning, you have no argument in that regard.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wow that's a lot of bitching for someone in their mid 20s. May I ask you why you think escape has to prove Dooku CANT block Sidious' lightning? Why would you even bother asking him to prove a negative, especially since there's ZERO evidence showing Dooku has those capabilities. Windu had to use all of strength and vaapad just to hold the lightning back. Dooku doesn't have those same capabilities and until YOU can prove dooku can somehow magically block Sidious' lightning, you have no argument in that regard.

LOL. Thanks for totally blocking out my conclusion to this.

I saved you the bandwidth abuse.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I simply have to ask. Is that you on this picture?

http://mitglied.lycos.de/veilofdarkness/reality.jpg Sorry, I don't sit around in my mom's panties watching House and eating bonbons, trying to figure out how I can be as cool as him. I'm glad your camera works though.

Bump for Nai #2. Cue the hostile, defensive remarks filled with unnecessary flamebaits and the inevitable mocking that is to come.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Sorry, I don't sit around in my mom's panties watching House and eating bonbons, trying to figure out how I can be as cool as him. I'm glad your camera works though. Well, he was kidding (note the smilie).

And Escape, narcissism and egotism are totally cool. You don't know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Faunus
Well, he was kidding (note the smilie).

And Escape, narcissism and egotism are totally cool. You don't know what you're talking about.

IT IS ALL ABOUT ME!

Nice thread bumping, Gideon. Mind you. I have said, that you could have a serious discussion via PM, but as I see now, you want it in the public – so you'll have it your way.

"I caught Nai in a major lie!"

There you go, Gideon. Let me first clear this issue up, before I turn unto something else. I might just once more, quote what I – according to you – should have stated, just to refresh your memory.



This is what I, according to you, should have said. In fact I stated the exact opposite of the first statement, and never said something that could even remotely be interpreted to fit your second statement. So. We have two attempts of a strawman from you here. Great work. Now it's suddenly all about "Oh noez, Nai. You didn't say 'might'. You said 'Dooku will beat Sidious'. Period." Note that this has precisely nothing to do with your original claims, but okay.

So this is what you call "a major lie" ? Either you're not able to read properly, have really disturbed moral concepts or you're desperately searching for something to attack me. And I know it's the latter. Why? Because you're once again attempting a strawman at me. Here is what I've written as an answer to your Nai-Fohl-Myths.



Do you, in that statement, see me stating that Dooku 'might' have won according to my oppinion back then? No. What you can find there is me recapping the issue of the thread. And since it was actually debated if Dooku could defeat Sidious using his lightsaber the issue still was if Dooku could or couldn't possibly beat Sidious.

So. You actually, at three occasions pulled some statements out of you ass, which I never made, in order to be remotely able to attack me, because of – all the irony – wanting to attempt to catch me in a a "major lie". Nice work, dude. We can keep going on with discussing how embarresing for you and pitiful that failed plan of yours was, spending an ridiculous amount of words in analyzing how desperate you must have been to attempt it, or we can drop the point. Your choice, Newbie.

On the subject of Darth Sidious versus Count Dooku:

a)
You can't compare the incidents in which the force lightning is used by Dooku and Sidious, and so you can't compare the power of the lightning.

First: Dooku's applications of the ability are done with one hand only. Since the power is focused through the hands (which was the explanation why Vader can't use force lightning), it's quite natural that using both of your hands will allow you to channel more energy, meaning you are quaranteed to generate a greater effect in comparison to using only one hand.

Second: Unlike Sidious use of the ability, which always happens at close range, Dooku is using the ability over far greater distance, when he's attacking Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda with it. As the lightning does generate some kinetic force (as seen when Anakin is tossed backwards in AotC, when Yoda is slammed into the wall and Mace out of the window in RotS). Knowing that, this part of the force delivered by the force lightning, might actually decrease with the range the lightning is used on, making it easier to deal with the lightning the greater the range between the user and the target gets.

And now, despite of that, Dooku's lightning (used with one hand and over rather great distance) is still powerful enough to pick Anakin from the ground, reverse his movement (he was about to charge Dooku) and toss the Jedi across the entire hangar into a wall, knocking him out for several minutes. And, after being reflected twice (once by Yoda and once by Dooku himself) it still dealt visible damage to the duracrete ceiling of the hangar. Yet when Dooku, in the EU, is using the power at closer range, you can see him knocking out people like Sora Bulq and Asajj Ventress with apparent ease.

So no. To me there is no visible evidence that Sidious lightning is stronger than Dooku's use of the same ability, although that is – most likely- the case, which doesn't have much influence on the scenario presented.

Why? Because:

b) We do already know that Mace Windu was able to deflect a full barrage of Sidious lightning in close range combat by putting his lightsaber in the way. Now. Why shouldn't Dooku be able to do the same?

First: Some people have mentioned Vaapad here as the key that Mace was able to do that. Apparently some people here have forgotten, that Vaapad is just a mindset. It's not an uber ability which enables you to be especially good fighting against Dark Siders. Nope. It's nothing but going to the edge of the Dark Side, utilizing the darker feelings, without descending down the path of the Sith. And doing so, you actually archieve the "Dark Side boost" without going Dark Side, which does make you stronger. Now guess what: Dooku is a Sith Lord. They are always using their darkness, granted, not as weapon for the light but to archieve their personal goals. Thus he pretty much operating under the same circumstances Mace is using while utilizing his Vaapad.

Second: Looking at most of the quotes around in the SW universe, it actually seems like Dooku is quite more powerful than Mace Windu. Yoda himself claimed that Dooku is the Jedi temples "greatest student", defining that greatness with the words "most learned in the ways of the force". We have several sources claiming that Dooku was "one of the most powerful Jedi" to ever leave the temple "and an even greater Sith Lord". This aside from the fact that he, unlike Windu, has gone through more than a decade of studying the Dark Side (actually he has started studying it as a young man) and he is one of the very few individuals able to deflect force lightning.

Third: Now one might say that Windu was only able to stop the lightning because of his physical strength. A nice idea. However. It was said that Dooku's physical condition was that of a man half his age. Adding to that we can see that he's apparently able to boost his natural strength to an extend where he can not only block overhead swings from Obi-Wan and Anakin, who still has the artificial hand, simultaneously. Nope. He's also able to engage both Yoda and Anakin in a saber-lock. We all know that Yoda can boost his physical strength into literally superhuman levels, while Anakin's artificial arm is strong enough, to allow him to hold the weight of himself, Kenobi and Sidious during their escape from the Invisible Hand. Yet Dooku was able to keep up with that.

So. Can he deflect Sidious lightning, either with his hand or at least with his lightsaber? Yes. I think he's very well able to do the job.

Which brings us back to the lightsaber duelling. Notice: Mace Windu is capable of defeating Sidious in a lightsaber duel. We do know that Dooku was better than Mace in that department in TPM times and he, very much like Mace, did even get better from that time on. Now Dooku is still using a form that is designed for lightsaber-vs-lightsaber confrontation and apparently is more powerful than Windu (better force aided combat). Now. According to Lucas, Mace overpowered Sidious in lightsaber combat. Now you could come with the novel and attribute Mace's victory there to his shatterpoint ability. Granted. The point is that even in the novel he's matching Sidious with his lightsaber skills only. Thus somebody who's using a lightsaber style possibly better for lightsaber-vs-lightsaber confrontation and apparently an individual possessing a greater force mastery than Mace (force aided speed and reflexes), could very well be able to defeat Sidious in lightsaber combat.

Now some people might recognize all the "could", "might" and "probable" above: That is just present because I don't want Gideon to run around here with a tear-soaked pillow. The point is that, under the circumstances of a versus fight Dooku, imho, posesses a greater chance to defeat RotS (!) Sidious than the other way around. Which is speculative and not saying that Sidious inside the continuum is not going to kill Dooku in 10 out of 10 fights.

On the subject of Darth Sidious versus the Ancient Sith

You have still not gotten the point, Gideon. You have no factual evidence that states that Sidious is the greatest in anything that would matter in a versus fight. Period. Hence you can't prove people wrong that claim Sidious will be defeated by an ancient Sith. I can put that into a single sentence that you're familiar with since the day you're arguing here: Absence of proof is no proof of absence.

For people who do enjoy reading far more than thinking, this entire Sidious thing is a clear cut, because the EU is litered with quotes regarding his character and power. But this here is a SW VS Forum and not the LFL HQ. We are dealing with speculative issues here and as the word 'speculative' does already suggest, this allows us to use speculations about characters that the official continuum doesn't take into consideration, because they would spawn so many variables and plot-holes that they will never be able to cover it all up. The point is: We're here to generate those ideas and discuss them and not for destroying them by estimating that we've found the only truth regarding speculative issues dealing with a realm of fiction. At least I am here for that kind of fun.

Because if I just wanted to read the source material under the presupposition "X must be more powerful than Y" I could just do that myself and after that "argue" by tossing 231 quotes I found by doing that into this forum. Where is the personal accomplishment there? A trained monkey could do the job. Which doesn't make you look too great now, Gideon, since that is pretty much all you did since you joined the board, eh?

And the quotes about Sidious are accepted? Sure. But your interpretations are not. And quotes, unless they discripe action happening, are narrative or characters oppinions which are always subject to interpretation, hyperbole or falsification. That's it. And for the nice amount of sources listing Sidious as "the most powerful Sith", we can simply listen to Leland Chee. This can be found on page 81 of the Holocron-Thread over as SW.com, answering a question of our beloved Noobaris on the issue:

"There's always going to be room for interpretation and debate. Is the power being measured referring to his mastery over the dark side of the Force, the governmental powers he wields as Emperor, or some combination of both?"

See, Gideon. I really don't want to burst your bubble: But all the quotes you can pull out of your ass regarding Sidious are still subject to interpretation and there is nothing saying that Sidious is, in regards to lightsaber combat and offensive / defensive force abilities, the best there ever was. He can have mastered as many force powers as he wants and exploited the Dark Side back and forth again. This doesn't change the fact that any Ancient Sith can be able to annihilate him with an amulett blast or some random-instakill from the realm of the Dark Side that Sidious hasn't ever heared about or plain and simply cut him into little pieces. Period.

The mere fact, that Leland Chee tells us that there will always be room for debate should actually be enough for you to realize that you can't proof anything beyond doubt here. No matter how hard you try.



Yes, Gideon. The very point is that – because all of the battles are speculative in nature – you can't prove somebodies opinion wrong. You can prove his arguments wrong, yes. His opinion? Nope. Not until the day when you have the speculative fight turning into a match that does happen in a SW source. And even then it most certainly won't happen under the same conditions that we assume to be true in a versus fight. Just as example: We have seen Anakin losing against Obi-Wan Kenobi in RotS when anything present in the source material actually leads to the conclusion, that Anakin should have won that fight – one might even claim by far. Inside the continuum it will never happen because of feelings, character relations or the plain and simple fact that somewhere in the storyline, Anakin had to turn into the half-human half-cyborg being we all recognize as Darth Vader. Outside of the continuum I can argue that Kenobi wins 10 out of 10, that Anakin wins 10 out of 10 or that each of them reaches a 50/50 win/lose ration. Speculation.

And because of those reasons, I can also think that Ragnos can curbstomp Sidious all day long, and the only thing you could do is to say: "Based on what we know about Sidious, I think this is unlikely". That is about as far as you can go.



Gosh. How can I be wrong on a completely speculative issue, Gideon? Please tell me. Present me the factual evidence of Sidious defeating Dooku under circumstances of a versus fight here. Or Sidious defeating Ragnos. You can't. Because there is no factual evidence you could use to do the job. Plain and simple.

Aside of that I told you already (multiple times) that I'm not debating my personal opinions here, Gideon. My personal opinions – regarding completely speculative issues – aren't up for debate. You could as well ask me if I do believe in god and then attempt to prove my believes (or the lack of them) wrong. Does that make sense to you? Nope? Then you're on the right way. I'm not interested in the opinions people have. I'm interested in the way they reached their personal conclusions. Hence I'm antagonizing them or asking them for arguments. Otherwise each thread in this forum could look like that:

Ragnos VS Sidious:
Posting #1: "I think Ragnos wins."
Posting #2: "I think Sidious wins."
Posting #3: "I agree with Posting #1"
Posting #4: "My fanboy bible told me that Sidious and Ragnos are too powerful to put them in a VS setup, without having the planet been blown apart."

That sounds like a lot of fun, eh?

On the issue of your profile

Gosh, Gideon.
Do you really think I care about the reasons you put stuff in your profile? Do you really believe that people like IKC, Janus or myself where taking something here serious? For the record: I don't give a crap for your reasons to put stuff in your profile, nor do I care about your opinion regarding myself. The mere fact that you waste your time with producing stuff that nobody, and that "nobody" is meant literally, cares about, is funny enough. That you were really coming in here attempting to justify that profile...god damn it, Newbie. How dumb can you be?

Egotism anybody?



Oh stop it, Supergirl.
I can be as egomanic and narcistic as I want. If you can't live with that – hey. That's your problem and not mine. That aside from the fact that it is not me, who runs around here, claiming his words are "god given fact", which happens to be your job. And I'm also not the teenager who dares to lecture adults on anything – that would also be your job, kiddo. Not to mention that you're the guy who's attempting to judge other by their posts in a meaningless online forum. But good god. Isn't it nice that I am the egomanic and narcistic person here. Because if I weren't you would also have to do that job, since you have all the qualifications needed. Yet, we both know that, like it's always with you, you would just be the poor immitation of the original (which is myself), as you're – at the moment – the poor immitation of Lightsnake, who does at least possess some abilities beyond stupid "Quote Wars". Which is pretty much all that you've done so far, Newbie.

But wait: Do you know what the most funny part of this entire "debate" is: You've still not contributed a single argument to the discussion of this thread here. Of course, I just asked three times for your – I'm sure – great arguments on how Revan or Exar Kun (let's ignore Bane) will defeated in a lightsaber fight with "laughable ease". You keep dodging the point. Why? Because you don't have any arguments? Because your such a bad, bad egoist, that you can simply debate what you want to talk about – regardless of the thread topic? Or because you're afraid to get owned once more? Really. Quite funny this great showing of your self-proclaimed debating skills, newbie. I will, by the way, not stop calling you out on that issue.

And on a side-note: House is cool? Yup. A guy with no real life that only lives for his "job", punishes his only friend whenever possible, is inable to form any social relationship and, on top of that all, can't even walk without a cane, simply must be the definition of adorable coolness. Another great display of your flawed skills in terms of interpretation. Nice job.

I'm not going to participate in the flame fest any longer, Nai, and would prefer to address the point directly. You will understand, then, if I don't respond to your jabs and deal with the meat of the issue.



Nonsense. I have numerous statements that confirm the Emperor's mastery of the Force and combat prowess. My interpretations are correct based on the context in which they are provided; Palpatine isn't mentioned to be "the most powerful Sith ever" in the context of a political debate or authority derived from governmental powers. The statements I bring up are always within reference to the dark side of the Force or a combat scenario. If you wish to imply that they are referencing his intellect, political savvy, or political strata, it is your burden to prove. Period.

Moreover, you're being completely hypocritical. You and the rest of the Anteduvilians relied completely on statements from other characters and narrators (i.e. " the most powerful of the most powerful.", since Ragnos had zero combat feats to speak of. Otherwise, you couldn't collectively prove that Ragnos is a match for a stormtrooper, much less the most powerful dark side magus in history.



As stated before, I can, since the statements I bring to the table are all relevant in a combat situation or reference to his mastery of the dark side. What can you bring to the table, Nai? Moreover, even if we neglect the quotes -- Ragnos has no feats to speak of. The Ancient Sith relied on Sith arcana and Force enhancing technologies to aid in their power. Nothing suggests that in natural potency that they are even close to rivaling the Galactic Emperor's. Palpatine's knowledge has been demonstrably proven to surpass that of any individuals. I would suggest, my friend, in reading up on current sources. There is absolutely no evidence, which is what we must use in a speculative match, that supports the idea that any Ancient Sith Lord could rival or defeat the Emperor in combat. If I may borrow your term, period.



You have never applied this reasoning to any scenario but Sidious versus the Ancient Sith. Only then do you use the Any Given Sunday clause, which is understood, Nai. But we base our matches upon evidence, and unless there is some specific trait or attribute that would make us think twice, we (and you as well) tend to go with the stronger opponent. Sidious is proven to be stronger than the Ancient Sith.



Enough to devote an entire paragraph to it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
On the subject of Darth Sidious versus the Ancient Sith

You have still not gotten the point, Gideon. You have no factual evidence that states that Sidious is the greatest in anything that would matter in a versus fight.
Err....force power? knowledge of numerous force techniques? Those seem like pretty decent qualifiers.

It's difficult to argue a definite when one side has extremely limited to no showings whatsoever. It does leave one with a nice conclusion, however.
For instance, Darth Bane has demonstrated substantial skill, power and knowledge that, frankly, if the Sith'Ari prophecy is to be believed, places him heads and shoulders above the Ancient Sith. There is nothing the Ancient Sith have demonstrated that would be conducive to a versus fight against him. Who do we side with? The one with backing or without it?

We can dozens, if not hundreds of versus matches for that to be taken to account. This is, after all arguing facts from Star Wars canon and nobody has ever been particularly shy about arguing straight from quotes from either sources or omniscient narrators.

I'm going to say the words 'He was the most powerful of the most powerful' and leave it there. There seemed little skill when it was argued for backing of Marka.

'Any?' Oh, come now, that's just flagrant baiting. There is, however, substantial evidence that Palpatine is an incredible duelist-including G-canon statements- and that he not only has access to just about everything the Ancient Sith know, but has invented techniques of his own and has recovered a substantial trove of what was previously lost.
And seriously, open to interpretation or not, some are pretty airtight. In fact, more than 'some' are pretty airtight. If 'everything' is subject to interpretation, let's argue for Johun 'I move faster than the eye can see' Othone taking down Nomi Sunrider in a saber fight.
Some things are rather clear cut. Are we going to argue Yoda is somehow not the most powerful Jedi in the order?

What path does this follow? 'There's always room for interpretation' means proof is impossible to come by? I'm sure I could find some absolutes you are in complete agreement, Nai.


Actually, he can present more facts and evidence than you can. And demonstrate why he is more likely correct. A refusal to change stance when the point becomes that hard to defend leaves you at a rather poor turn in the road



If it's not onscreen, it won't happen? Well, here's a bit of logic by the subject: Lucas has said clearly that you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Palpatine. Is Dooku Yoda or Mace? Given that Bane is incredible likely to be the Sith'Ari, he who will 'destroy the Sith' and 'make them stronger than ever before...' if that holds true, it would indeed set Palpatine above a good deal of forebears. A fairer question may be where's the evidence of ragnos to put him above Palpatine or Bane?

If that's the case, however, why should anyone get into the debate? It seems clear you're meaning for them to swing to your side, but you're essentially saying your opinion won't change


There's a LOT more we could argue than just Palpatine vs. Ragnos. How about Bane vs. Exar Kun? How about Mace Windu vs. Kas'im? Caedus vs. Naga Sadow? There's a LOT that's up for fun debate

Actually, I have the feeling IKC took himself very, very seriously.

Sidenote: Vitriol aside, how goes, Nai?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Err....force power? knowledge of numerous force techniques? Those seem like pretty decent qualifiers.

It's difficult to argue a definite when one side has extremely limited to no showings whatsoever. It does leave one with a nice conclusion, however.
For instance, Darth Bane has demonstrated substantial skill, power and knowledge that, frankly, if the Sith'Ari prophecy is to be believed, places him heads and shoulders above the Ancient Sith. There is nothing the Ancient Sith have demonstrated that would be conducive to a versus fight against him. Who do we side with? The one with backing or without it?

We can dozens, if not hundreds of versus matches for that to be taken to account. This is, after all arguing facts from Star Wars canon and nobody has ever been particularly shy about arguing straight from quotes from either sources or omniscient narrators.

I'm going to say the words 'He was the most powerful of the most powerful' and leave it there. There seemed little skill when it was argued for backing of Marka.

'Any?' Oh, come now, that's just flagrant baiting. There is, however, substantial evidence that Palpatine is an incredible duelist-including G-canon statements- and that he not only has access to just about everything the Ancient Sith know, but has invented techniques of his own and has recovered a substantial trove of what was previously lost.
And seriously, open to interpretation or not, some are pretty airtight. In fact, more than 'some' are pretty airtight. If 'everything' is subject to interpretation, let's argue for Johun 'I move faster than the eye can see' Othone taking down Nomi Sunrider in a saber fight.
Some things are rather clear cut. Are we going to argue Yoda is somehow not the most powerful Jedi in the order?

What path does this follow? 'There's always room for interpretation' means proof is impossible to come by? I'm sure I could find some absolutes you are in complete agreement, Nai.


Actually, he can present more facts and evidence than you can. And demonstrate why he is more likely correct. A refusal to change stance when the point becomes that hard to defend leaves you at a rather poor turn in the road



If it's not onscreen, it won't happen? Well, here's a bit of logic by the subject: Lucas has said clearly that you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Palpatine. Is Dooku Yoda or Mace? Given that Bane is incredible likely to be the Sith'Ari, he who will 'destroy the Sith' and 'make them stronger than ever before...' if that holds true, it would indeed set Palpatine above a good deal of forebears. A fairer question may be where's the evidence of ragnos to put him above Palpatine or Bane?

If that's the case, however, why should anyone get into the debate? It seems clear you're meaning for them to swing to your side, but you're essentially saying your opinion won't change


There's a LOT more we could argue than just Palpatine vs. Ragnos. How about Bane vs. Exar Kun? How about Mace Windu vs. Kas'im? Caedus vs. Naga Sadow? There's a LOT that's up for fun debate

Actually, I have the feeling IKC took himself very, very seriously.

Sidenote: Vitriol aside, how goes, Nai? dude what is with the ridiculuosly long ass post...


Old for Force New for Lightsaber assuming im on the right thread

Are you actually trying to get yourself banned again?

We can only hope

So, DarkSerpent. Your new hobby is to post "Why iz this post so long lolz" after basically every single post in a debate.

Ingenius, really. You have found a new- and creative!- way to annoy us.

No... The old Sith own this(force wise) outa superior knowledge in terms of the force

PT jedi take the sabers...Anakin gets killed.

Outa superior knowledge? That has...what to do with it, exactly?

I think he means they'd tear apart Anakin and Mace in the Force battle.

Sorry for my absence. Had some nice pile of work to do...

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not going to participate in the flame fest any longer, Nai, and would prefer to address the point directly. You will understand, then, if I don't respond to your jabs and deal with the meat of the issue.

Oh? You want to address the point directly? Then why do you keep talking around it? And thanks for just picking the "meat" you wanted to address...



And you have no statement that confirms the Emperor's superiority to any of the Ancient Sith Lords directly. The fact that you can toss in numerous quotes about Sidious here doesn't change that fact, since verbosity doesn't count as "proof".



First: Your interpretations aren't correct because you say so – I'm afraid. Ipsedixitism doesn't work.

Second: Where in the blue hell have you been when the other students in your school bumped into the art of literature interpretation? "Context" does not naturally refer to the action happening around a certain piece of text, but to character relations, general characteristics or the view of certain persons.

Now what do we have in that particular scene in the RotS novel. We have Yoda realizing that he can't defeat Sidious because he's the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Do you really believe Yoda can't do the job because of Sidious mastery with the lightsaber or his force powers? Obviously not! First: You've acknowledged yourself that those two are – at least – equals. Second: Lucas went one step further and claimed Mace and Yoda are both able to defeat the Emperor. Third: Mace did already manage to do it.

Yet you want to tell me, that this quote, which is part of the reasoning for Yoda not being able to defeat Sidious, is related to the Sith Lords lightsaber skills and force powers? So you want to argue against Lucas and – whoopie – against your own opinion? Especially when, following Yoda's realization, his personal reason for not having the ability to defeat Sidious is that you can't win a war against an enemy that utilized said war itself as a weapon against you? So obviously, the "power" of Sidious comes from a mixture of his Sith skills and his political manouvering and military planning because he managed to get himself into a position where his plans couldn't have been stopped any longer.

And notice how I didn't take the easy way here, which would be me saying "Hyperbole!" and down goes your beloved quote. Oh wait. No. There are no hyperboles in the quotes you're using, correct? So where was it exactly, when Sidious "blotted out the stars themselves" and "spread his rule to other Galaxies" as the Dark Side Sourcebook claims, eh?

That aside, Gideon: Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non que negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies).You might get away with shifting the burden of proof when debating one of the regular newbies around here. Doesn't work with me. If you want to use that or any other statement as a testament to Sidious force abilities and lightsaber skills it is your burden to prove that there is no hyperbole involved and that the statement you want to use refers to nothing but Sidious force abilities, general combat skill, and not mine to prove your interpretation wrong.



Sure thing, kid.

As far as I remember, I have literally literred this place here with thoughts regarding Ragnos and the Ancient Sith. Sure thing: We also did use quotes, yes, but I bet you've never seen me dropping the "most powerful of the most powerful" line in here, following with a conclusion for a certain topic. Did you? Nope. And because that is the case and you know that this is the case, the only hypocrite running around here is sitting right in front of your PC.

And Ragnos has no feats to speak of? I get to that gre-he-he-eat point later...



According to your personal interpretation which, as demonstrated above, holds pretty much no water.



Debating for newbies.

Lection #1: I don't have to bring anything to the table, Gideon. It is you who has to defend his opinion here, which I am currently attacking. I don't have to make a case for Ragnos or anybody else to deny your opinion that Sidious has the greatest knowledge, is the best when it comes to combat and has the coolest force powers up his sleeve. You have to prove all of that points (and good luck with that) to defend your opinion, regardless of what I'm thinking.

Lection #2: You're not arguing "Sidious vs XYZ" here, Gideon. You're stating Sidious > all other Sith Lords, no matter in which discipline related to the natural Jedi and Sith abilities. And see. That's the problem here:

a) You can't deny that most of the Ancient Sith appear to be physically on top of Sidious, which might be a deciding factor in terms of direct combat

b) You can't deny that his knowledge is based upon stuff the Ancient Sith left behind, when we know that most of that stuff was actually lost.

c) You're assuming that his Dark Side mastery and knowledge exceed that of individuals who had, literally, centuries to study the Dark Side and gain knowledge.

d) You can't argue around the fact that some of the force related stuff the Ancient Sith did produce, be it force enhancing technology, Sith Alchemy, Sith Arcana and offensive force powers seems to be pretty much beyond Sidious.

Wow. What a revelation, Gideon.

So somebody, clearly not Ragnos, must have beheaded Simus in a duel or probably the latter did decide to do the job himself, I suppose. Then said unknown Sith Lord established a rule over a conglomerat of Sith Lords that lasted for more than a century. In other words: Said person did manage, by whatever means, to keep a bunch of probably powerful individuals under his command, which all desired his own position, and that for more than a century. While doing so, said unknown Sith Lord must at least have done something impressive, as people drop immediatly on their knees when even his spirit pops up somewhere, while Kressh assumes that he could annihilate Sadow easily – even in that "powerless" spirit shape. Said Sith Lord also popped up a millenium later, burning marks into Exar Kuns and Ulic Qel-Dromas foreheads with his bare hands, making them both ripple with Dark Side energy. And we're talking about the same Sith Lord that had a sceptre in his possession which was able to drain the force energy out of places, to store that energy and unleash them to either equip none force-sensitive with powers on Jedi Knight level, unleash blasts of that energy apparently able to easily floor people like Kyle Katarn or call back the spirit of his former owner back from the netherworld of the force. An action after which said former owner was able to simply take over the weak body of some Dark Side adept and confront one of Luke's most promissing students in a duel while wielding a pretty much huuuuuge metal sword around fast enough to pose a threat to said Jedi handling a weightless lightsaber.

But I'm astonished by the revelation that all of this couldn't have been Ragnos, since that dude I'm talking about actually has feats to speak of, where Ragnos, according to you, does not.



Hilarious. Do you really think that you can get anywhere in this debate, coming up with stupid premises like that you've just presented here?

How in the blue hell can somebody attempt to talk people down, which did come up with all that Force enhancing technologies or Sith Arcana? See...that stuff didn't pop up out of nowhere. It was either invented or actively used by said Ancient Sith, which doesn't matter too much because there is no basis to measure the power of the Ancients without said stuff, as they were always using their Sith Arcana or carrying around their force enhancing gimmics. And even if we would remove those from the equation you still won't end up with them being, beyond doubt, less powerful than Sidious. Because, as you may have noticed by now, there is also nothing to suggest that Sidious potential rivals that of the Ancient Sith either and much less to suggest that his natural potential is enough to compete with them if they, as always, are using their gimmics.



Oh? It has? Where, Gideon? Where?

May I remind you, that Bane's Sith Order started with the basic abilities that Bane learned during his training , adding the Ancient Sith knowledge which Revan stored in his holocron – only to the extend that Bane could extract from said holocron in the timespan of some days - that was taken away from a training facility for Dark Side starters? This while most of the knowledge the Ancient Sith once had was, logically, over a time-span of multiple millenia. Let me just point it out:

1) During and after Sadow's actions, most of the knowledge within the Sith Empire was obviously destroyed (either by the deaths of the Sith Lords or by the later invasion of the Republic / Jedi into the Sith Empire)

2) Sadow's own knowledge was destroyed partitially by Nadd (who killed Sadow before finishing his training under the Dark Lord), and later when Kun was defeated.

3) Malachor V, a storehouse of Ancient Sith knowledge (but only a training facility) was completely destroyed, making Revan (and his holocron) one of the few original sources of Ancient Sith knowledge.
Even within the new found Sith Order, knowledge was obviously lost, as none Dark Lord did ever teach his apprentice all he knew. This is, for example, obvious from Sidious who murdered Plagueis before having learned everything from his master (e.g. the assumed ability to manipulate the midi-chlorians themselves, generating new life)

Yet you are, effectively, assuming that somebody who did hunt knowledge from a certain time period is capable of exceeding the people that lived in that certain time period in terms of knowledge. This while knowing that most of the knowledge present went to hell over the time-span of 5,000 years. To me, that looks pretty much illogical because you could as well assume that a historian has more knowledge about, let's say, Ancient Egypt, than a Pharao who lived back in that time.

Of course, said historian might have other knowledge that exceeds that of the Pharao. Sidious might have knowledge about the ways of the force that the Ancient Sith didn't have. Yet to assume that he could have as much or more knowledge than them regarding Ancient Sith techniques is ridiculous.



I would suggest, my friend, that you stop with the writing before you're done with the thinking.

"Evidence" is everything that can be used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. As your assertion is that Sidious is more powerful than any Ancient Sith and could defeat any Ancient Sith in combat, the "evidence" you would need to determine, demonstrate or prove your point is a direct comparison in whatever sense between Sidious and any Ancient Sith in terms of force powers, force abilities and combat skills. Since such evidence doesn't exist in the source material, I may happily welcome you in the realm of speculation. In fact the idea that let's say Ragnos can defeat Sidious in combat is as plausible as Sidious defeating Ragnos in combat, if you want to base it on "evidence" and not "verbosity".

And this is already ignoring that I find your personaly idea of limiting "evidence" to "stuff that can be read in the sources" rather absurd. So, going by this idea, your estimating that Herodot is right with everything he wrote down reagarding the Battle at Thermopylae, because there is no other source from the corresponding time on the issue, telling us what happened? I wonder why historians are actually questioning Herodot. Could it be that, using logical reasoning, you may reach other conclusions that an author that writes down a piece of fiction? Gosh!



And I also have never applied this reasoning to the Sidious versus the Ancient Sith scenario, Gideon. Stop attempting to use those straw man arguments against me. To apply an "every given sunday" scenario, I would, logically, have to accept the idea that Sidious is more powerful than the Ancient Sith first. As I don't do that, I can't apply said kind of reasoning on such a debate. So please. Take that straw man, put a picture of me on it, light it on fire and get the kids from the neighbourhood to whack it with sticks if that makes you feel better. Doesn't change the fact that it is not proven that Sidious is stronger than the Ancient Sith, unless you carry said proof around with you in your pocket, touching it every day before you enter this forum to ensure yourself that the time you spent here actually was good for anything.

And you've still not offered any argument which barely touches the issue of this debate, nor did you spent a single word explaining how Exar Kun and Revan will be defeated by any of the three Jedi involved with 'laughable ease' ! But please try to dodge the issue once more – it's quite entertaining watching your attempts to do the job. Even more entertaining than watching you arguing in circles that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord eeeeeveeeer.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Err....force power? knowledge of numerous force techniques? Those seem like pretty decent qualifiers.

So the Ancient Sith aren't able to use the force and don't know numerous force techniques any longer nowadays? Gosh. How is it possible that I missed that fact? Damn it!



No, Lightsnake. It doesn't leave one with a nice conclusion. It leaves one with an impression. The conclusion is whatever happens inside your head after seeing the impression. Yet my view on the matter is not limited to some random quotes which, considering they appear in fictional literature alltogether, aren't relieable. And also I don't attempt to pass my opinion down as fact.



Oh look. Lightsnake attempting to debate once more.

Believing or not believing the prophecy should not be an deciding factor in an argument. You make it a deciding factor. We could bury that argument right there. But just for the fun of it...

What was it that puts him above the Ancient Sith? Did we see him tearing the spirit right of a Jedi on par with post-DE-Luke Skywalker as Kun did, using a technique which Luke didn't have any defence against? Did we see him wielding a two metre long metal sword around so fast that he could match the speed of a Jedi using a lightsaber, as Ragnos did while possessing a weak body ? Knowledge? Did we see him spawn creatures with Sith Alchemy that pose a threat to even Jedi or construct force enhancing gimmics, the lesser being "deadly" amulets, the more powe