Exar Kun, Darth Bane, Darth Revan vs. ROTS Yoda, Mace and Anakin

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wolfpack86
Which side prevails Light or Dark?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by wolfpack86
Which side prevails Light or Dark?

The Jedi get curbstomped in force competition. The Jedi win with difficulty in a saber duel. The end.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The Jedi get curbstomped in force competition. The Jedi win with difficulty laughable ease in a saber duel. The end.

Corrected.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
Corrected.


Where's the laughable ease? Bane and Kun are incredibly proficient with a blade and even though Revan is an unknown, he was #1 in his time. At any rate, what exactly would make it easy for the jedi?

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Where's the laughable ease? Bane and Kun are incredibly proficient with a blade and even though Revan is an unknown, he was #1 in his time. At any rate, what exactly would make it easy for the jedi?

Because every one of the Jedi is greater than any of the three Sith. Anakin > Kun. Anakin > Bane. Anakin > Revan. Yoda > Kun. Yoda > Bane. Yoda > Revan. Mace > Bane. Mace > Kun. Mace > Revan.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
Because every one of the Jedi is greater than any of the three Sith. Anakin > Kun. Anakin > Bane. Anakin > Revan. Yoda > Kun. Yoda > Bane. Yoda > Revan. Mace > Bane. Mace > Kun. Mace > Revan.

When has it EVER been established that Anakin is superior to all 3 in saber combat? Mace and Yoda are likely to be superior but Anakin? Passing something off as fact doesn't make it so.

Gideon
Oh, I can tell that this is going to be entertaining.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
When has it EVER been established that Anakin is superior to all 3 in saber combat? Mace and Yoda are likely to be superior but Anakin? Passing something off as fact doesn't make it so.

It was established when General Anakin Skywalker engaged Count Dooku of Serenno aboard the Invisible Hand during the Second Battle of Coruscant in the Clone Wars. Skywalker battled Dooku -- "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand year history" and "an even greater Lord of the Sith" (also considered to have been the greatest of the Lost Twenty and the Temple's "most learned student" by Master Yoda; a contention that was never disputed) -- and when he decided to slay the Count, according to the omniscient narrator: "Dooku was already dead. The rest was mere detail." He turned Dooku's wealth, connections, influence, prodigious lightsaber skills and mastery of the Force into "a joke". Windu and Yoda both displayed the ability to defeat the Count, but not to such a deep extent.

If Anakin could turn into such an unstoppable force as to annihilate someone of Dooku's stature, and Advent already handled why Anakin > Kun in lightsaber ability years ago, what on Earth makes you think that Bane or Revan have a chance?

Oh, and for the record, there is no likely. Based on all evidence, Yoda and Windu outclass Bane, Revan, and Kun in swordsmanship.


Edit: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry, forgot the orbalisks. Bane might do major damage after all.

Schwarzenegger
Its not like anakin can't break banes orbalisks if he manages to hit him with tremendous force or anakin could simply disable banes saber which would make things far easier for him.

Faunus
Bane himself couldn't even break the shell of a single, unattached orbalisk with his lightsaber. Bane >> Anakin, as far as physical strength is concerned. Bane fell at least a kilometer with six people and three (thirty-foot long) drexls on top of him. The orbalisks didn't break. In fact, they just healed the wounds he'd suffered, including a broken arm, in seconds. This, ten years before RoT. Three Jedi striking almost simultaneously couldn't so much as scratch his armor, and the only time one of them managed to cut him he flung them away with the Force and, again, healed the wound instantly. It took his own Force lightning - which a decade prior was capable of vaporizing three individuals and turning their drexl into a charred heap - to kill some of them, when they managed to shake off five force-pikes, each of which was strong enough to put down a bantha.

So no, Anakin cannot in any way break or notably damage the orbalisks, although at least one of the trio could certainly get around them.

Darth Subjekt
I still fail to see who the force bout would be such a curbstomp if Yoda is equal with the most powerful Sith in history, Mace was second to Yoda, and Anakin was called "the most powerful Knight ever known to the Jedi Order." How is it such a decisive victory?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I still fail to see who the force bout would be such a curbstomp if Yoda is equal with the most powerful Sith in history, Mace was second to Yoda, and Anakin was called "the most powerful Knight ever known to the Jedi Order." How is it such a decisive victory?

Mace and Anakin wouldn't be on par with any of the 3 sith lords, with Yoda being the only one putting up so much as a challenge.

Darth Subjekt
Well then how literally should we take that statement about Anakin? I know how literal the Anakin haters will take it, but Jedi Masters are still Jedi Knights. And for him to be called "once the most powerful" would seem to indicate that he would be somewhat formidable against the Sith here, although he might not yet have the control over it yet.

Darth Sexy
Nobody is debating his force connection, raw abilities, or saber prowess. However, he would not be able to contend with ANY of the other fighters in the force, and as Faunus pointed out, it is very unlikely he would be able to smash through Bane's orbalisks.

Darth Subjekt
Ah, my misunderstanding then. But Bane does have open spaces, right? So even if Anakin, for some reason, couldn't exploit one of those spaces, then surely Mace could via shatterpoint, correct? And if the other two Sith are killed leaving only Bane to face the three best Jedi, they'd be able to overcome him. This is, of course, assuming that they don't get pwned with the force right out the gate.

Schwarzenegger
Originally posted by Faunus
Bane himself couldn't even break the shell of a single, unattached orbalisk with his lightsaber. Bane >> Anakin, as far as physical strength is concerned. Bane fell at least a kilometer with six people and three (thirty-foot long) drexls on top of him. The orbalisks didn't break. In fact, they just healed the wounds he'd suffered, including a broken arm, in seconds. This, ten years before RoT. Three Jedi striking almost simultaneously couldn't so much as scratch his armor, and the only time one of them managed to cut him he flung them away with the Force and, again, healed the wound instantly. It took his own Force lightning - which a decade prior was capable of vaporizing three individuals and turning their drexl into a charred heap - to kill some of them, when they managed to shake off five force-pikes, each of which was strong enough to put down a bantha.

So no, Anakin cannot in any way break or notably damage the orbalisks, although at least one of the trio could certainly get around them. Alright, i'll concede that. But i don't see why anakin wouldn't try to disarm him by cutting his lightsaber if he cannot break his orbalisks as you just proved.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, I can tell that this is going to be entertaining.


And now, Ladies and Gentleman, KMC SW VS Forum presents another Episode of "Revenge of the Fanboys".



And that it was. You can now go and watch our featured film "Bullshit with Gideon" in the next Anakin or Sidious related topic. Thanks.

Really Gideon. Why do you always keep forgetting the minor details?

a) Dooku completely pwned Anakin and Obi-Wan to the point where he simply took Obi-Wan out of the fight while delivering a backkick at Anakin. Did you somehow miss that fact

b) Nice that you're once again using the RotS Novel as a source which describes a completely different fight. Does Dooku look hard pressed in the movie? Nope. Is the duo coming close to defeating him at any given time of the fight? Nope! Unfortunately for you, the movie still represents the higher level of canon.

c) If you want to stick to the novels interpretation than do it correctly. Following the novels interpretation, Dooku was not allowed to harm Anakin in any way and was adviced to try and push him over to the Dark Side. Notice: That are two clear disadvantages for Dooku as 1) He wasn't allowed to do all he could and 2) tapping into the Dark Side can bring you quite close to your full potential, as seen, for example, when Luke goes mad in RotJ and overcomes the (without a doubt) more skilled Vader.

So Gideon. You can decide now: Either Dooku is still superior to Anakin in terms of lightsaber skills (because he pwned him while Kenobi and Skywalker where double-teaming him) or he lost because he wasn't allowed to go all out and even had to make his opponent stronger by taunting him into using the Dark Side. Or, to give you another way out: You can simply realize that comparing Anakin to Dooku based on that duel in the fashion you always attempt to do it is a grade A, money back guaranteed, steeming and stinking bucket of Canadian horse piss. So. Keep in mind: This is debating and not "Gideon picks everything that supports his opinion and leaves the rest out".



And there we have it again. Yes. Anakin can turn into an unstoppable force to annihilate somebody who isn't allowed to hurt him, if being properly taunted before that. Or he can simply be outsmarted by an inferior force user and duellist, as happened, when he faced his old master Kenobi. Since the opponents here consist of a tactical mastermind (Revan), a guy that is pretty much invunerable by a lightsaber (Bane) and a dude that wields are completely unique weapon with a unique lightsaber style (Kun), I'd love to see your arguments how Anakin would overcome any of them with "laughable ease".



Oh. And what "evidence" would that be, Gideon? Based on the "evidence" we have, Revan and Kun remained undefeated in lightsaber combat throughout their entire career and dominated their respective eras pretty much (at least in their prime). And Bane is still covered with that nice orbalisk armor.

So. I'm waiting for you to come back here and present us evidence how any of the three Sith will be defeated in lightsaber combat with "laughable ease". Or you can take that laughable statement together with your laughable attempts to analyze the source material the resulting laughable opinions, put them on a boat and send them on a nice trip back to Lala-Land. The result might look like that:

http://pics.nase-bohren.de/shipment_of_fail.jpg/1217818911

Faunus
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Alright, i'll concede that. But i don't see why anakin wouldn't try to disarm him by cutting his lightsaber if he cannot break his orbalisks as you just proved.He could try, sure, assuming he had an iota of sense and could actually deduce that he can't simply plow through his enemy.

Besides, Bane's not some worthless little punk. His working knowledge of the lightsaber forms at least equals that of Anakin, since he'd memorized every single traditional stroke and sequence of each, and had himself mastered Form V while being proficient enough in Soresu to teach it to Zannah. His build is just ridiculous - a "mountain of muscle" with, what, eight or nine inches on Anakin? Add in the orbalisks and you have someone just as skilled (if not more), considerably larger and stronger, and nearly completely invulnerable to any real offensive Skywalker could mount. Anakin has three places he can strike with any effect, and he'll have to do so under the physical onslaught Bane unleashes. Hell, even if he manages to wound Bane - wound as in cut through most of his wrist like Johun did - he'd have to capitalize on it immediately or the Sith would just heal off the damage.

And even if he did destroy Bane's saber - what then? Bane is easily capable of blocking Anakin strikes with any part of his body other than his head, and seeing as how Obi-Wan managed to put Anakin on his ass with a simple kick I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say Bane might be able to disarm him in return and proceed to rip him apart, limb-by-limb.

Schwarzenegger
From what i'v seen in jedi vs sith. Bane's muscularity is far from ridiculous as his build does not even come close to those of roid monkeys like ronnie coleman and jay cutler.

But yes, his build is still pretty muscular but not too overly ridiculous.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Borbarad
And now, Ladies and Gentleman, KMC SW VS Forum presents another Episode of "Revenge of the Fanboys".



And that it was. You can now go and watch our featured film "Bullshit with Gideon" in the next Anakin or Sidious related topic. Thanks.

Really Gideon. Why do you always keep forgetting the minor details?

a) Dooku completely pwned Anakin and Obi-Wan to the point where he simply took Obi-Wan out of the fight while delivering a backkick at Anakin. Did you somehow miss that fact

b) Nice that you're once again using the RotS Novel as a source which describes a completely different fight. Does Dooku look hard pressed in the movie? Nope. Is the duo coming close to defeating him at any given time of the fight? Nope! Unfortunately for you, the movie still represents the higher level of canon.

c) If you want to stick to the novels interpretation than do it correctly. Following the novels interpretation, Dooku was not allowed to harm Anakin in any way and was adviced to try and push him over to the Dark Side. Notice: That are two clear disadvantages for Dooku as 1) He wasn't allowed to do all he could and 2) tapping into the Dark Side can bring you quite close to your full potential, as seen, for example, when Luke goes mad in RotJ and overcomes the (without a doubt) more skilled Vader.

So Gideon. You can decide now: Either Dooku is still superior to Anakin in terms of lightsaber skills (because he pwned him while Kenobi and Skywalker where double-teaming him) or he lost because he wasn't allowed to go all out and even had to make his opponent stronger by taunting him into using the Dark Side. Or, to give you another way out: You can simply realize that comparing Anakin to Dooku based on that duel in the fashion you always attempt to do it is a grade A, money back guaranteed, steeming and stinking bucket of Canadian horse piss. So. Keep in mind: This is debating and not "Gideon picks everything that supports his opinion and leaves the rest out".



And there we have it again. Yes. Anakin can turn into an unstoppable force to annihilate somebody who isn't allowed to hurt him, if being properly taunted before that. Or he can simply be outsmarted by an inferior force user and duellist, as happened, when he faced his old master Kenobi. Since the opponents here consist of a tactical mastermind (Revan), a guy that is pretty much invunerable by a lightsaber (Bane) and a dude that wields are completely unique weapon with a unique lightsaber style (Kun), I'd love to see your arguments how Anakin would overcome any of them with "laughable ease".



Oh. And what "evidence" would that be, Gideon? Based on the "evidence" we have, Revan and Kun remained undefeated in lightsaber combat throughout their entire career and dominated their respective eras pretty much (at least in their prime). And Bane is still covered with that nice orbalisk armor.

So. I'm waiting for you to come back here and present us evidence how any of the three Sith will be defeated in lightsaber combat with "laughable ease". Or you can take that laughable statement together with your laughable attempts to analyze the source material the resulting laughable opinions, put them on a boat and send them on a nice trip back to Lala-Land. The result might look like that:

http://pics.nase-bohren.de/shipment_of_fail.jpg/1217818911

It's nice to know that you come back here to tell us what Dooku was and WASNT allowed to do. However, from Darth Sidious' own admission, if Dooku had been more powerful in the dark side than Anakin, he would have killed Anakin. Please show us where Darth Sidious tells Dooku NOT to hurt Anakin. I do recall Sidious telling Dooku that if Anakin miraculously gets the advantage, Sidious will stop the fight. He didn't, and Dooku was fighting for his life.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It's nice to know that you come back here to tell us what Dooku was and WASNT allowed to do. However, from Darth Sidious' own admission, if Dooku had been more powerful in the dark side than Anakin, he would have killed Anakin. Please show us where Darth Sidious tells Dooku NOT to hurt Anakin. I do recall Sidious telling Dooku that if Anakin miraculously gets the advantage, Sidious will stop the fight. He didn't, and Dooku was fighting for his life.

Oh. You do recall something? Instead of recalling something, you should fetch yourself a copy of the RotS novel and read it. This would enable you to participate in debates with actual knowledge about the things being discussed. And since I know that this will be a totally new experience for you, I'll simply share the following paragraphs from the RotS novel with you:


Count Dooku watched with clinical distaste as the blue-scanned images of Kenobi and Skywalker engaged in a preposterous farce-chase, pursued by destroyer droids into and out of turbolift pods that shot upward and downward and even sideways.

"It will be," he said slowly, meditatively, as though he spoke only to
himself, "an embarrassment to be captured by him." The voice that answered him was so familiar that sometimes his very thoughts spoke in it, instead of in his own. "An embarrassment you can
survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not? And have we not ensured that all the galaxy shares this opinion?"

"Quite so, my Master. Quite so." Again, Dooku sighed. Today he felt
every hour of his eighty-three years. "It is ... fatiguing, to play the
villain for so long, Master. I find myself looking forward to an honorable captivity." (RotS novelization)

Oh? What's that? Apparently, Dooku thought that Sidious planned to have him captured by Anakin. I think it would look pretty stupid if Dooku killed or defeated the guy who should capture him later, eh? Given that plan above, it's pretty clear that Dooku was under the impression that he should lose to Skywalker somehow after taking Kenobi out. Which is exactly what happened.

The other idea makes no sense at all: Dooku was a rather gifted student, noted as "the greatest" Jedi trained in the Temple by Yoda personally. You really think that Sidious would sacrifice an apprentice with Anakins potential, that had yet to be unleashed, just because the young Jedi, not having reached his full potential, might have lost a duel with one of the greatest Jedi there ever was who had become "even more powerful as a Sith"? Normally, Sidious is not known for casting pearls before swine. And still you assume that he was about to do that in this particular situation? When already knowing that Anakin was about to become more powerful than himself or Yoda (which he states in their duel), something that Dooku would never have managed to do? Sounds pretty stupid.

Blax_Hydralisk
edit

Master Crimzon
I personally don't think that Anakin can defeat Bane in a pure saber competition, thanks (and only thanks) to the orbalisks- considering Anakin's style is basically all-offense, it will be entirely useless against Bane, and seeing as Anakin isn't known for his accuracy... well, you get the point. He will, however, decimate any of the other two within a saber duel. I've already explained why I believe either Yoda or Mace will kill Bane in a lightsaber duel. Sith are toast in lightsaber duel.

That being said, however, here are certain quotes that PROVE that Dooku wasn't 'messing around' with Anakin or whatnot. Anakin beat him, fair and square:

"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread." - Even though he was holding back, Anakin was pwning Dooku.

"Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical." - Dooku was AFRAID of what would happen if Anakin actually stopped holding back. That's right, afraid.

"No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice." - That's correct. Mid-battle, Dooku decided to go for the kill rather than follow Sidious' orders.

"And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith." - Dooku realized that Sidious betrayed him.

That being said, I believe that's enough to confidently say Anakin beat Dooku fair and square.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I personally don't think that Anakin can defeat Bane in a pure saber competition, thanks (and only thanks) to the orbalisks- considering Anakin's style is basically all-offense, it will be entirely useless against Bane, and seeing as Anakin isn't known for his accuracy... well, you get the point. He will, however, decimate any of the other two within a saber duel. I've already explained why I believe either Yoda or Mace will kill Bane in a lightsaber duel. Sith are toast in lightsaber duel.

That being said, however, here are certain quotes that PROVE that Dooku wasn't 'messing around' with Anakin or whatnot. Anakin beat him, fair and square:

"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread." - Even though he was holding back, Anakin was pwning Dooku.

"Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical." - Dooku was AFRAID of what would happen if Anakin actually stopped holding back. That's right, afraid.

"No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice." - That's correct. Mid-battle, Dooku decided to go for the kill rather than follow Sidious' orders.

"And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith." - Dooku realized that Sidious betrayed him.

That being said, I believe that's enough to confidently say Anakin beat Dooku fair and square.

Oh my god.
It can't be that hard to understand. Dooku entered the fight with certain orders which didn't allow him to kill or defeat Anakin at any cost. Is that clear so far? Because of that he didn't gave Anakin and Kenobi all he could, wasted a chance to easily kill Anakin and after that taunted the young Jedi to unleash his dark emotions allowed Anakin to emerge victorious - not his skill as it was at that point in time. The unnatural dark side boost he received did the job.

Notice that Nick Gillard said that the only thing that made Anakin better with a lightsaber than Obi-Wan were his new found Dark Side abilities. Without that power boosts, Anakin is equal to Kenobi in terms of force use and lightsaber combat. So. Do you really want to tell me that Obi-Wan Kenobi would be able to defeat the likes of Bane, Kun or Revan in a lightsaber duel? I hope not. Assuming that Anakin goes into "godlike" mode is nothing more but turning the exception into the rule - the regular state of the individual. Following that line of thought, RotJ Luke is stronger than OT Vader and Padawan Kenobi a better duellist than Darth Maul. I don't think that arguing like that makes much sense.

Gideon
After watching a season of House and letting his balls drop, Nai Fohl enters the ring once again! It's so good to see you, man.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And now, Ladies and Gentleman, KMC SW VS Forum presents another Episode of "Revenge of the Fanboys".

LOL. Say, aren't you the same Nai Fohl who just practically begged Darth Sexy not to flame him? And you come here with this? No, Nai, no. That simply won't do. Pick an ideology and stick with it, okay? It's either "LOLZ GUNS A BLAZING" or we make our posts respectful. You don't get to straddle both sides of the fence as if it were a Chris Lee cardboard cut out.



I understand that English is your native tongue. It's evident from the appalling lack of humor in this diatribe; I guess your wit is literally lost in the translation. Meanwhile, I thought I was just a Sidious fanboy; now it's both him and Anakin? I guess that's still less than your quota of Ancient Sith + Yoda and Dooku, so as long as I'm ahead of the curve, I feel accomplished.

Out of curiosity, have you taken a look at Dooku vs. Sidious recently? Some dude bumped the thread for shits and giggles. I particularly loved your argument how "LOL DOOKU PWNZ SIDZ!"

It makes the situation all the more hilarious, especially when you dare criticise me about fanboyism.



Minor details? So I guess what you mean to say is that none of the following matter in the end?



a.) Count Dooku was driven back the entire time by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, was forced to overwhelm Kenobi with the Force rather than disarm him with his LOLZ UBER MAKASHI, and then had his Super Battle Droids fire upon the Jedi in an attempt to save his old ass. Did you somehow miss that, Nai? Or does the German edition cut out the parts you don't like?



b.1) According to Matthew Stover (a man whose word I trust more than yours), George Lucas was heavily involved in the editing process of the novelization and played a key role in drafting it. George Lucas > you. Meanwhile, even if it were totally different, narrative and character thoughts displayed in the novelization are just as canon as anything else.



b.2) Whoa, wait a second, my Aryan brother. You're telling me you can make out the Count's expression, even though most of the duel doesn't take into account his facial features, since they are 100% computer generated? I guess Palpatine really did have to take a shit during his fight with Windu.



b.3) LOLZ THEY SURE ARE! Since, since the first saber clashes, they dominated the fight, pushing Dooku all across the General's quarters. Ironically enough, he was able to push Skywalker and Kenobi back during their duel on Geonosis, but somehow is unable to do so here.



Unfortunately for you, the movie doesn't seem to be your argument's best friend at the moment.



An outright lie. Dooku's own thoughts during the duel in the novelization, once he realized that he was being suckered was "the comedy was over. It was time to kill."

Does kill have another meaning in German? Wouldn't that be ironic.



Your familiarity with Canadian horse piss is rather disturbing, but not necessarily surprising. Here's my decision. Count Dooku's alarming egotism prevented him from using the obvious Force advantage and sought to subdue Skywalker through lightsaber skills (his preferred method of fighting) and failed miserably when Skywalker got pissed. Isn't it cool? I found a fourth option!



Where again did Kenobi outsmart Anakin? Being in a better state of mind =/= outsmarting someone.



Oh, well in that case... I forgot that being undefeated in lightsaber combat in one's era, in one's career, and dominated one's respective era clearly means that he or she is better than everyone else in another period. Guess Yoda and Windu kick the shit out of Ragnos. I wish you'd told me that sooner. Would've given me a more efficient way for curbstomping your pro-Ancient Sith arguments



Self portrait, Nai? Really not necessary. But I'm pretty sure that's the only way someone would take notice of how you look: you have to force your picture upon them. Nasty.

Borbarad

Darth Subjekt
Movies>novels if something is contradicted. In this case, adding to the duel, in a part not shown in the film (therefore not contradicted) is to be considered canon.

Gideon
Originally posted by Borbarad
Attempt to be funny or insulting number 243 million. And once more: Failed.

So, I found myself doubled over in laughter at this opening remark. Allow me to get this straight: you begin this whole ordeal with numerous insults and jabs directed at my person, correct? I mean, come on, Nai. Aren't you the Nazi who styles himself as "da man"? Be man enough to admit that you came here throwing out the verbal assaults. And when I dish them back out, it's suddenly "LOLZ UR ATTEMPT TO BE FUNNY IS STOOPID" and then you pick an (unfunny) arbitrary number? Jesus Christ, this is getting old. You do this every single time, and these lines were much better when ACstyles or Nebaris were using them.



Easy, Nai. Such sensitive ego. And, yes, you did whine about DS trying to flame you. Being the victim of a poor upbringing doesn't give you carte blanche to play the victim whenever you like, Nai.



Yeah, left off the "n't" to "is".



Rehashing opening salvos, criticising someone's sense of humor, and doing so in a remarkably unwitty fashion does not qualify as humor. Seriously, did you shut off the DVD player and read my last six arguments with AC and Nebaris and decide to borrow everyone else's lines?



Why, golly gee, Nai, I figured since you were the one who brought up the whole fanboyism topic, I'd bring up some of your finer moments. Hey, everyone, this is the guy who spearheaded the "LOLZ DOOKU IS SO MUCH MORE POWERFUL, BADASS, AND SMARTER THAN SIDIOUZ" series of jokes that plagued this forum. Come on, Nai. If you're going to get hostile and defensive over your in-character **** ups, don't bring up fanboyism at all. I diagnose you with terminal hypocrisy. Cure? Pull your head out of your ass. Dr. House would be so disappointed.



Your experience with "handling" teenagers notwithstanding, Nai, it clearly does. You come, we argue, you leave. You watch your season of House, feign a limp, grab a cane (you two are the same age, right?), and wobble back on here as if your presence matters. Once you start getting burned in your little flame war, you wine and go for one of Nebaris's patented approach. He does it a lot better than you.



LOL. So you do read everything I type on here. Thanks for confirming my theories, Nai. You've been waiting, watching, reading. Desiring to debate me again but oh-so-fearful. And I said that Skywalker didn't generate or demonstrate power to be on par with Sidious's until late NJO and DN. Though I do appreciate your ability to draw conclusions from nothing. It's like magic.



Is Dooku resistent to lightsabers? Is his cape and outfit made of cortosis? Because you make it sound like they were swinging away and he was either engaging them or not caring at all, when the truth is that he gained a momentary advantage over the two of them. And as I recall, wasn't his ass knocked over a balcony?



Narrative that doesn't necessarily conflict with the movie, Nai. Here I thought Nazis were educated.



Right. So, since Darth Sidious was all shits and giggles during his duel with Yoda (and Yoda didn't so much as crack a grin), I guess he obviously owned Yoda!

Your hypocrisy's showing, Nai. Cover it up, please. The rest of us can't handle the toxic exposure you produce.



Or, gosh, maybe he's using the Force to compensate for his physical inferiority.

Naw. You're right.



The only thing 'pwned' here is your argument. Given that he would later have his guards attack, it's obvious that Dooku knocked Kenobi aside out of desperation. And no one denied his superiority in the Force.



Ah, yes. Casually. Which is why he clearly shows signs of strain by dropping the walkway on Kenobi and is knocked down over the balcony.



Force-aided boot to the face? Confirm it was Force-aided and then confirm that it was all macho Dooku and no Force assistance for his recovery.



Yes, he makes one grunt and ergo, he must be suddenly gasping for air like an asthmatic. Never mind that he actually does knock Dooku back and that Dooku wasn't talking as if nothing is happening, judged by his pause and grunt of the word "anger".



You're very formulaic in your posts, Nai. Predictability is definitely something you excell in. Holy shit. See? I can do it too.



I looked at it for all of five seconds before dismantling it.



Right. Sidious says "strike me down!" to Luke Skywalker. Does that mean he really wants to die?



I want the exact quote.

Gideon
You have yet to prove it was his intention. And if it was, it makes Dooku all the more the fool.



Actually, it's not the same thing at all. Statements for Yoda and Palpatine apply to all eras. Likewise, you can keep telling me that the Ragnos4Prez! fanclub wasn't beaten, but Faunus had the balls to admit it. 1.) You're all gone. 2.) It's not even accepted at EoD. 3.) You're so frightened to post here.



You were debating me about Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan, my Nazi friend. Pick an argument first.



And there goes all doubts of you trying to be like Greg House. LOL, Nazis don't need to model themselves after fictional TV characters. Especially when they are American and being portrayed by British characters. Doesn't your whole ideology have a problem with those two countries?

So both House and Hitler have a problem with you, Nai. Shame, shame, shame.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Gideon
So, I found myself doubled over in laughter at this opening remark. Allow me to get this straight: you begin this whole ordeal with numerous insults and jabs directed at my person, correct? I mean, come on, Nai. Aren't you the Nazi who styles himself as "da man"? Be man enough to admit that you came here throwing out the verbal assaults. And when I dish them back out, it's suddenly "LOLZ UR ATTEMPT TO BE FUNNY IS STOOPID" and then you pick an (unfunny) arbitrary number? Jesus Christ, this is getting old. You do this every single time, and these lines were much better when ACstyles or Nebaris were using them.

Let me get this straight for you, Gideon: I'm provoking you with ad hominem phrases and you jump on them like a mad muppet because your King-of-the-Ring position in this forum means everything to you. And now look out: I'm just saying "Hey, Joe. You aren't funny." Your reaction: "Nazi!" Can it be that somebody takes the internet a little bit too serious?



My "poor upbringing" enabled me to properly understand words written down in front of me. Something that you're noble upbringing apparently didn't manage to do. Oh wait. I'm talking to a person who apparently thinks that every German is a Nazi...nfc.



*Yawn* I will point out again, once more, that I neither stated that Dooku is more powerful or smarter than Sidious. If you'd read the thread once more, the argument circled around Dooku being possible able to take Sidious in a lightsaber fight and an "all out match" (winning with his lightsaber abilities). Did you get that now, Gideon?



Did it ever occur to you, Gideon, that people can get bored arguing the same stuff over and over again? See. I got bored, checked EoD, found nothing interesting, came here, did a few posts and I may be gone tomorrow. And my presence here certainly doesn't matter - except for you, and - apparently - Advent who enjoyed seeing a post of me here again. So what?



As a matter of fact, Gideon, I didn't even take a look into this forum for - uh - a damn long period of time. I didn't even waste two seconds of my free-time thinking about you and your pretty thoughts on a B-movie universe. The fact, that you have "theories" about me actually confirms that you waste much more time thinking about me, than I could ever affort to spent with Gideon-related-thoughts. Believe it or not.



Ah. The "Nazi" again. Creative flaming of a person living in Germany, indeed. No. Narrative doesn't necessarily conflict with the movie, Gideon. The point is that narrative does conflict with the movie when character thoughts and so on are based on incidents which are simply not happening in the movie version. It's that easy. Dooku can't be surprised by Anakin and Obi-Wan almost double-teaming him with coordinated manouvers, when nothing like that happens in the movie. He can't develop the thought that it's about to "end this comedy" because he struggles with the two Jedi, while he floors them, taunts them etc.



Are you willingly ignoring the point, Gideon? The mere fact that he has the time to knock Obi-Wan aside, while he keeps duelling Anakin, actually shows that the Jedi didn't generate enough pressure on him with their lightsaber abilities to keep him from using his force abilities.



Which doesn't change the fact that he apparently has enough time to turn his back on Anakin, think about what he could do to Kenobi and use the force (without any distraction from Anakin attacking him from behind) to pwn Kenobi and simultaneously floor Anakin. Either Anakin was standing up there and was sipping a Martini, watching his former master dealing with the battle droids, or he was completely inable to force Dooku to focus on him with his famed saber abilities. I think the latter idea is the more logical one.



He is hit, lands on his feet and is immediately ready to fight again. It doesn't matter if that kick was "force-aided" or not and it doesn't matter if Dooku used no Force assistance for his recovery. The fact is that Anakin, capitalizing on Dooku being busy with burrying Obi-Wan, was not capable to take Dooku out in that situation.



Yes. He pushes Dooku back after Dooku has told him to use his anger and hatred which - apparently - Anakin does right after that.



Nope. But what would have happened if Vader had decide not to ignite his lightsaber to stop the blade of his son, eh? See. Dooku counted (haha) on Sidious. He thought Sidious would stop Anakin from killing him. Instead he was betrayed. Sidious in RotJ did count on Vader to stop Luke - had Vader developed the thought that it might be a good idea to have Luke cut right through Sidious face, Sidious would have been dead. Period.



See quote in the other thread. The only "foolish" act of Dooku here was to thrust his master.



It's not the statements, Gideon. It's the interpretations. You take the quotes and turn them into ultimate and unbeatable weapons. I may explain it to you once again. Sidious can be the most powerful Sith Lord in the history of the SW universe. Now...does that mean that Ragnos can't beat him? Nope. Yoda can be the most devastating foe the Dark Side has ever seen. Does that give him a guaranteed victory in a lightsaber fight against Exar Kun? Nope. And that's it. That was the entire point for the entire time. I hope you get it now. But just to answer that:

1) We're all gone because, apparently, we have better things to do with our time than discussing SW related topics. Or read forums in general.

2) I haven't seen a SW related thread on EoD recently. If it's "not accepted" as opinion at EoD (which I doubt), than it's not accepted by the same people who didn't accept it here. Guess who cares...

3) If you can use the search function, Gideon, you would see that I went into discussion arguing against the Ancient Jedi and Sith rather often, which did often lead to rather heated arguments with IKC, Janus and Illustrious which usually ended with us agreeing to disagree.

And you really think that people that already crossed their mid-20s are "frightened" to post here? You should go and do a reality check, mate.

Borbarad
Do you think that dodging the point once more gets you anywhere, Gideon. I'll might point out that people referred to me as "the lawyer" around here, because I usually kept bringing up details to everybodys attention. Here's the detail: You said that the Jedi will defeat the Sith in lightsaber combat with "laughable ease". Present your arguments or rest your case.



Tell me, Gideon. Are you're attempting to "model yourself" after Grievous. He appears in your avatar and your signature. Oh wait. Can it be, that the House picture just is there, because I liked the face with the "Lord save me from stupidity" phrase below it? Oh noez. So keep calling me "House", call me "Nazi" or "Hitler's mom" if you wish to Gideon. Doesn't change the fact that you're out of my life, whenever I hit the "x" on the right top of my browser, while vice versa I haunt you in your dreams.

Gideon
Originally posted by Borbarad
Let me get this straight for you, Gideon: I'm provoking you with ad hominem phrases and you jump on them like a mad muppet because your King-of-the-Ring position in this forum means everything to you. And now look out: I'm just saying "Hey, Joe. You aren't funny." Your reaction: "Nazi!" Can it be that somebody takes the internet a little bit too serious?

You recognize me as "king-of-the-ring" around here? Aw, thanks, Nai. Endorsement from a Nazi. That's about as useful as stock from Enron, though I do appreciate the thought behind it. Anyways, as I said, these statements of yours are rehashed and diluted statements taken from ACstyles and Nebaris. You say I'm not funny, I say you're not funny, you say I'm throwing a fit, I say you're throwing a fit. I'm going to state the obvious, you're going to continue using the same formula that you used however many years ago you joined this forum. It's not like you're covering any new ground here, sport, or making some sort of statement.



Every German a Nazi? No, certainly not. I've got major German ancestry, actually, and it's a language I'm dying to learn (though I hear it's obscenely difficult). No, it's merely a little bait in this war of jabs and jests. Though I'm not surprised you take such offense to it. Who's getting riled, again?



False, sir.





Oh, we both know you won't be gone tomorrow. You're much too addicted to me, Nai. You've practically hit on me with every post.



Such hostile denial, Nai. Don't get too riled up about it. Besides, your cover's been blown.



He was being pushed back by them the whole time, used a desperate Force push to floor Kenobi, had his droids attack (all the while still being driven back by Anakin), and gained a momentary advantage, disabled one, was knocked back by Anakin until he was eventually disarmed and killed. I'd say that that applies.



He wasn't dueling Anakin, Nai. Otherwise he would have been cut in half the second he dropped his guard to lay waste to Kenobi. Unless you think the great Count is saber proof.



Right. Because thinking to disable Kenobi is clearly a monumentous effort for Dooku regarding time. Is it your goal to make him look like an idiot? Perhaps Anakin was sitting on his ass, overcome by hatred? Perhaps he was building up his strength? Who knows.



Ah, you brought up the Force-aided thing, not me. But I do appreciate how you changed your mind. And yes, it does matter. He knocked Dooku into an inferior position.



Judging from the way that Dooku was being pushed back the entire duel, Anakin was building up the rage and hatred prior to that. I'm sure Dooku's advice, however, just made him even more pissed.

Gideon
Except Sidious was shackled, so I don't know what exactly Dooku thought he'd do. Unless he's an idiot. The point is that Sith have a tendancy to say shit like that to goad their enemies or to set them off balance, not because they actually are suicidal.



Pretty dumb, yeah.



I take quotes and turn them into ultimate and unbeatable weapons? Thank you. Though, of course, you try to save face with the any given Sunday rule. Curious how you tend to ignore it for this situation, though.



Yes, that's why you created a whole new set for just that purpose. Jesus, Nai, you'll have to do better.



I've seen statements by Deception, the biggest Ragnos fanboy I've ever seen. He's totally unwilling to debate it here or there. He knows he can't prove the Ragnos4Prez! to be correct.



More often than them, Nai, which doesn't say much.



It was a provocation, man. I'm curious, though... can I get a list of things that you say that are baiting and things that are serious? Because you react so differently to some things I say, and I don't want to hurt your feelings.



Nai, I'm not dodging the issue. I'm telling you how this is going to be. You're going to decide if we're going to debate Anakin vs. Dooku or you can decide if we're going to debate the purpose of the thread. I'm not going to debate both, simultaneously. You will pick one and I'll happily argue this. Though, a Nazi with reading comprehension would point out that I said "laughable ease" before I remembered Bane had his orbalisks.



No, though I'm flattered you compare me to Grievous. Tactical genius with a great reputation? Could be worse. I don't model my entire personality after him, though, as you do with House. Come on Nai. You've been exposed.

Tangible God
Huh, glad I'm not the only one who drew parallels to Nai's first outburst and his avatar.

Gideon
Originally posted by Tangible God
Huh, glad I'm not the only one who drew parallels to Nai's first outburst and his avatar.

And that isn't to say House isn't awesome. But one ought to find one's own identity rather than mimic that of another. Especially when he or she is a fictional character.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Gideon
And that isn't to say House isn't awesome. But one ought to find one's own identity rather than mimic that of another. Especially when he or she is a fictional character. Oh, but why do that and live in reality when fiction is so much fun?!

Borbarad

Borbarad

Borbarad
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Oh, but why do that and live in reality when fiction is so much fun?!

I simply have to ask. Is that you on this picture? wink

http://mitglied.lycos.de/veilofdarkness/reality.jpg

Gideon
I'm going to dispense with all the flaming and jabbing here, Nai. Because now, you've been caught and there's no reason in perpetuating this any longer. But I am looking forward to your responses.

On the subject of Darth Sidious versus Count Dooku:

Your claim is that you originally said on that thread that Count Dooku "might" be able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel and that he "might" be able to defeat Sidious in an all out match. I've taken the liberty of posting what you actually said:



...Essentially, you completely lied about what you claimed to have said. In the quoted diatribe, you make it clear that there is no doubt in your mind that Count Dooku would emerge victorious over Darth Sidious in any setting, all the while refusing to acknowledge his superiority in the Force. Now, of course, we know that this is all dogshit anyway; Lucas's stance on the matter is that Dooku is lumped in "with Maul", in that he never even had the potential to become more powerful than Darth Sidious.



Yoda was able to subdue Dooku's lightning on Geonosis without any visible effort. Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to channel Dooku's lightning into his lightsaber without any visible effort (something that Anakin Skywalker replicated in their duel on Tatooine in Star Wars: The Clone Wars novel. In contrast, Yoda was overpowered during the opening salvo in the Chancellor's office and knocked unconscious and showed remarkable physical strain in holding the lightning at bay during the final moments of their fight. Also in contrast, Yoda was disarmed handily by a single gout of the Sith Lord's lightning, despite the fact that Yoda was able to augment his physical strength to ridiculous proportions and even broke lightsaber locks with Palpatine in their duel; Mace Windu, despite the metaphysical properties of Vaapad allowing him to channel the lightning into and back out of his lightsaber, was nearly killed by his own blade under the force of the Emperor's lightning, despite the fact that he outmassed Palpatine, had proper leverage, and was capable of augmenting his physical strength to utterly annihilate an army of Super Battle Droids and fight on even footing with Kar Vastor. So, actually, even though it isn't my burden to disprove, all evidence points to Dooku being unable to contend with Darth Sidious's Force lightning.

On the subject of Darth Sidious versus the Ancient Sith



Once again, your hypocrisy has been exposed, Nai. You refuse to apply the "any given Sunday" conditions to any arena but until it pertains to Sidious. You have no problem stating that "Character X" would crush "Character Y" even though the battles we debate are purely speculative in nature. I appreciate the attorney-esque approach to maneuvering through loopholes, but this one won't work. While we all make room for the fact that it is possible for an inferior character to defeat the superior one, conditions have to be proper for such an event. Meaning, as common sense dictates, the more powerful character will be pronounced winner unless there are noticeable conditions or circumstances (i.e. Windu's Vaapad, amulet blasts, ect.).

Likewise, I will also point out that you once refused to accept statements of Palpatine being the strongest. Now you do, of course. But so do Janus and the rest. But it practically pains you to admit it.



That's obvious, Nai. As I said, the battles we debate are totally speculative, but that doesn't stop any of us from saying "Character X would totally crush Character Y", unless you button all of your entries here with the "any given Sunday" rule. You don't. So, again, don't be obtuse by trying to whip it out here to save face.

If you want to slide in there that the quotes were taken from three years ago and you've changed your minds, then be like House and have the balls to admit that you were wrong.

Gideon
On the subject of IKC, Janus, and my profile



I've simply done what they themselves have done in the past. Janus's profile is a testament to his self-glorification and his disdain for others. Why should you all be exempt from similar treatment? I've simply taken statements you've all made (i.e. IKC taking DS to task for trolling and yet demonstrating the same conduct in the span of five minutes and Janus's pre-PT bias that compelled him to make statements like "BANDON > KENOBI!"wink. Don't bother trying to save their reputations or act like I'm picking on them. I've simply done what they've done, except mine show how stupid a lot of the things they have said and done are. We all poke fun at it.

On the subject of egotism









Don't lecture me on egotism, Nai. This is the sort of thing that makes appearances in my profile, for the record. The same thing I did to IKC. I'm sure House makes egotism and narcissism look cool, but it's not.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Borbarad
I simply have to ask. Is that you on this picture? wink

http://mitglied.lycos.de/veilofdarkness/reality.jpg


Wow that's a lot of bitching for someone in their mid 20s. May I ask you why you think escape has to prove Dooku CANT block Sidious' lightning? Why would you even bother asking him to prove a negative, especially since there's ZERO evidence showing Dooku has those capabilities. Windu had to use all of strength and vaapad just to hold the lightning back. Dooku doesn't have those same capabilities and until YOU can prove dooku can somehow magically block Sidious' lightning, you have no argument in that regard.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wow that's a lot of bitching for someone in their mid 20s. May I ask you why you think escape has to prove Dooku CANT block Sidious' lightning? Why would you even bother asking him to prove a negative, especially since there's ZERO evidence showing Dooku has those capabilities. Windu had to use all of strength and vaapad just to hold the lightning back. Dooku doesn't have those same capabilities and until YOU can prove dooku can somehow magically block Sidious' lightning, you have no argument in that regard.

LOL. Thanks for totally blocking out my conclusion to this. big grin

Darth Sexy
I saved you the bandwidth abuse.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Borbarad
I simply have to ask. Is that you on this picture? wink

http://mitglied.lycos.de/veilofdarkness/reality.jpg Sorry, I don't sit around in my mom's panties watching House and eating bonbons, trying to figure out how I can be as cool as him. I'm glad your camera works though.

Gideon
Bump for Nai #2. Cue the hostile, defensive remarks filled with unnecessary flamebaits and the inevitable mocking that is to come.

Faunus
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Sorry, I don't sit around in my mom's panties watching House and eating bonbons, trying to figure out how I can be as cool as him. I'm glad your camera works though. Well, he was kidding (note the smilie).

And Escape, narcissism and egotism are totally cool. You don't know what you're talking about.

Gideon
Originally posted by Faunus
Well, he was kidding (note the smilie).

And Escape, narcissism and egotism are totally cool. You don't know what you're talking about.

IT IS ALL ABOUT ME!

Borbarad

Borbarad

Gideon
I'm not going to participate in the flame fest any longer, Nai, and would prefer to address the point directly. You will understand, then, if I don't respond to your jabs and deal with the meat of the issue.



Nonsense. I have numerous statements that confirm the Emperor's mastery of the Force and combat prowess. My interpretations are correct based on the context in which they are provided; Palpatine isn't mentioned to be "the most powerful Sith ever" in the context of a political debate or authority derived from governmental powers. The statements I bring up are always within reference to the dark side of the Force or a combat scenario. If you wish to imply that they are referencing his intellect, political savvy, or political strata, it is your burden to prove. Period.

Moreover, you're being completely hypocritical. You and the rest of the Anteduvilians relied completely on statements from other characters and narrators (i.e. " the most powerful of the most powerful."wink, since Ragnos had zero combat feats to speak of. Otherwise, you couldn't collectively prove that Ragnos is a match for a stormtrooper, much less the most powerful dark side magus in history.



As stated before, I can, since the statements I bring to the table are all relevant in a combat situation or reference to his mastery of the dark side. What can you bring to the table, Nai? Moreover, even if we neglect the quotes -- Ragnos has no feats to speak of. The Ancient Sith relied on Sith arcana and Force enhancing technologies to aid in their power. Nothing suggests that in natural potency that they are even close to rivaling the Galactic Emperor's. Palpatine's knowledge has been demonstrably proven to surpass that of any individuals. I would suggest, my friend, in reading up on current sources. There is absolutely no evidence, which is what we must use in a speculative match, that supports the idea that any Ancient Sith Lord could rival or defeat the Emperor in combat. If I may borrow your term, period.



You have never applied this reasoning to any scenario but Sidious versus the Ancient Sith. Only then do you use the Any Given Sunday clause, which is understood, Nai. But we base our matches upon evidence, and unless there is some specific trait or attribute that would make us think twice, we (and you as well) tend to go with the stronger opponent. Sidious is proven to be stronger than the Ancient Sith.



Enough to devote an entire paragraph to it.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
On the subject of Darth Sidious versus the Ancient Sith

You have still not gotten the point, Gideon. You have no factual evidence that states that Sidious is the greatest in anything that would matter in a versus fight.
Err....force power? knowledge of numerous force techniques? Those seem like pretty decent qualifiers.

It's difficult to argue a definite when one side has extremely limited to no showings whatsoever. It does leave one with a nice conclusion, however.
For instance, Darth Bane has demonstrated substantial skill, power and knowledge that, frankly, if the Sith'Ari prophecy is to be believed, places him heads and shoulders above the Ancient Sith. There is nothing the Ancient Sith have demonstrated that would be conducive to a versus fight against him. Who do we side with? The one with backing or without it?

We can dozens, if not hundreds of versus matches for that to be taken to account. This is, after all arguing facts from Star Wars canon and nobody has ever been particularly shy about arguing straight from quotes from either sources or omniscient narrators.

I'm going to say the words 'He was the most powerful of the most powerful' and leave it there. There seemed little skill when it was argued for backing of Marka.

'Any?' Oh, come now, that's just flagrant baiting. There is, however, substantial evidence that Palpatine is an incredible duelist-including G-canon statements- and that he not only has access to just about everything the Ancient Sith know, but has invented techniques of his own and has recovered a substantial trove of what was previously lost.
And seriously, open to interpretation or not, some are pretty airtight. In fact, more than 'some' are pretty airtight. If 'everything' is subject to interpretation, let's argue for Johun 'I move faster than the eye can see' Othone taking down Nomi Sunrider in a saber fight.
Some things are rather clear cut. Are we going to argue Yoda is somehow not the most powerful Jedi in the order?

What path does this follow? 'There's always room for interpretation' means proof is impossible to come by? I'm sure I could find some absolutes you are in complete agreement, Nai.


Actually, he can present more facts and evidence than you can. And demonstrate why he is more likely correct. A refusal to change stance when the point becomes that hard to defend leaves you at a rather poor turn in the road



If it's not onscreen, it won't happen? Well, here's a bit of logic by the subject: Lucas has said clearly that you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Palpatine. Is Dooku Yoda or Mace? Given that Bane is incredible likely to be the Sith'Ari, he who will 'destroy the Sith' and 'make them stronger than ever before...' if that holds true, it would indeed set Palpatine above a good deal of forebears. A fairer question may be where's the evidence of ragnos to put him above Palpatine or Bane?

If that's the case, however, why should anyone get into the debate? It seems clear you're meaning for them to swing to your side, but you're essentially saying your opinion won't change


There's a LOT more we could argue than just Palpatine vs. Ragnos. How about Bane vs. Exar Kun? How about Mace Windu vs. Kas'im? Caedus vs. Naga Sadow? There's a LOT that's up for fun debate

Actually, I have the feeling IKC took himself very, very seriously.

Sidenote: Vitriol aside, how goes, Nai?

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Err....force power? knowledge of numerous force techniques? Those seem like pretty decent qualifiers.

It's difficult to argue a definite when one side has extremely limited to no showings whatsoever. It does leave one with a nice conclusion, however.
For instance, Darth Bane has demonstrated substantial skill, power and knowledge that, frankly, if the Sith'Ari prophecy is to be believed, places him heads and shoulders above the Ancient Sith. There is nothing the Ancient Sith have demonstrated that would be conducive to a versus fight against him. Who do we side with? The one with backing or without it?

We can dozens, if not hundreds of versus matches for that to be taken to account. This is, after all arguing facts from Star Wars canon and nobody has ever been particularly shy about arguing straight from quotes from either sources or omniscient narrators.

I'm going to say the words 'He was the most powerful of the most powerful' and leave it there. There seemed little skill when it was argued for backing of Marka.

'Any?' Oh, come now, that's just flagrant baiting. There is, however, substantial evidence that Palpatine is an incredible duelist-including G-canon statements- and that he not only has access to just about everything the Ancient Sith know, but has invented techniques of his own and has recovered a substantial trove of what was previously lost.
And seriously, open to interpretation or not, some are pretty airtight. In fact, more than 'some' are pretty airtight. If 'everything' is subject to interpretation, let's argue for Johun 'I move faster than the eye can see' Othone taking down Nomi Sunrider in a saber fight.
Some things are rather clear cut. Are we going to argue Yoda is somehow not the most powerful Jedi in the order?

What path does this follow? 'There's always room for interpretation' means proof is impossible to come by? I'm sure I could find some absolutes you are in complete agreement, Nai.


Actually, he can present more facts and evidence than you can. And demonstrate why he is more likely correct. A refusal to change stance when the point becomes that hard to defend leaves you at a rather poor turn in the road



If it's not onscreen, it won't happen? Well, here's a bit of logic by the subject: Lucas has said clearly that you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Palpatine. Is Dooku Yoda or Mace? Given that Bane is incredible likely to be the Sith'Ari, he who will 'destroy the Sith' and 'make them stronger than ever before...' if that holds true, it would indeed set Palpatine above a good deal of forebears. A fairer question may be where's the evidence of ragnos to put him above Palpatine or Bane?

If that's the case, however, why should anyone get into the debate? It seems clear you're meaning for them to swing to your side, but you're essentially saying your opinion won't change


There's a LOT more we could argue than just Palpatine vs. Ragnos. How about Bane vs. Exar Kun? How about Mace Windu vs. Kas'im? Caedus vs. Naga Sadow? There's a LOT that's up for fun debate

Actually, I have the feeling IKC took himself very, very seriously.

Sidenote: Vitriol aside, how goes, Nai? dude what is with the ridiculuosly long ass post...


Old for Force New for Lightsaber assuming im on the right thread

Faunus
Are you actually trying to get yourself banned again?

Lightsnake
We can only hope

Master Crimzon
So, DarkSerpent. Your new hobby is to post "Why iz this post so long lolz" after basically every single post in a debate.

Ingenius, really. You have found a new- and creative!- way to annoy us.

DarkSerpent
No... The old Sith own this(force wise) outa superior knowledge in terms of the force

PT jedi take the sabers...Anakin gets killed.

Lightsnake
Outa superior knowledge? That has...what to do with it, exactly?

Faunus
I think he means they'd tear apart Anakin and Mace in the Force battle.

Borbarad

Borbarad

Borbarad

Borbarad

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Borbarad
ladyc Look, it doesn't matter how much you post in favor of Dookie, he is inferior to Yoda(who was only trying to capture or subdue him) in saber skills and the force. Makashi and Djem So are both meant for combat but Makashi is precise and elegant were as Djem So is more about Dominating and over powering your opponent. This is were two fundamentally different strategies come into play. Dookie is old, tired, arrogant, and is more classy and aristocratic.
Anakin was more of a my foot in your ass type of combatant. He was youthful, physically powerful, had near unlimited force reserves, and had no qualms about beating the shit out of an old man.


Yoda told Kenobi he was not strong enough to face Palps.

Dooku never showed at any time that he actually posed a threat to Yoda.

Palpatine is way stronger and faster by DE.


Post as much as you want nothing changes the fact that Dookie was subservient to Palps, was ACTUALLY surprised that he was betrayed by him. Every canon source has stated that no Sith lord surpassed Palpatine in Raw Power or Knowledge.



Palpatine is completely and utterly superior to Dookie in everyway.


Get the **** over it.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
So the Ancient Sith aren't able to use the force and don't know numerous force techniques any longer nowadays? Gosh. How is it possible that I missed that fact? Damn it!
Is Palpatine able to use numerous and more force techniques than they are? Why yes. Yes he is



Uh, yeah you did, Nai. For quite a while that's exactly what you did. Frankly, you're attempting a nice strawman of my argument here in going "I don't rely on random quotes!" No, you're just ignoring what isn't convenient to your opinion.
What's logical: that someone with far more powerful showings and backings is better than someone with less powerful showings and backings?



The bit about making the Sith more powerful than they'd ever been before. Not only that, but Bane's own knowledge and showings? Yeah, head and shoulders above the Ancients Force-wise and this isn't even considering what he'd due to them in a straight duel.
If you have ANY other evidence of the Ancient Sith's power from direct evidence, we'd all like to see it.

We only see him rend apart the fabric of space and time and considering:
A. Palpatine has access to...just about everything Kun knew
B. Luke was being attacked on two fronts and surprised by Kun's sirit
C. Kun didn't even join in the attack until Luke was struggling with Kyp
D. Luke was caught in the very center of a Dark Side Nexus and:
E. Why should I believe Palpatine, capable of moving around the spirits of other people from their bodies to clones would be incapable of this?

When was Tavion 'weak' exactly? And since when do we see Palpatine getting his ass kicked with a weapon like said saber and the force draining scepter powers no less, by a neophyte with...what, a few months of study?


Considering he possessed, according to Jedi vs. Sith, all of Naga Sadow's alchemical knowledge. A more interesting question to ask:
Do we ever see him bothering to need them? Do we ever see the ancients capable of all of this on their own? No, we see Sadow's 'electrical weapon' and 'terrible technology' to quote directly at work. But what from Sadow? Oh, right, he throws a brick, silly me. Considering that BRAKISS was capable of manipulating solar flares on his own, the amount of Sith amulets Palpatine possessed and other artifacts besides...and considering Palpatine's knowledge of Dark Side creatures encompassed all of Sith alchemy's 'darkest secrets' and was enough to fill the entirety of the Creation of Monsters, I'd say you're coming up short in ways to bash the Emperor

Do I see the Ancient Sith achieving any of the power near Palpatine's without fancy little gimmicks? Do I see the Ancient Sith mastering Jedi techniques in addition to Sith techniques? Do I see them doing things that exceed even the first Force Storm on their own? Do I see them conducting force drains on planetary scales?
No? Do I see them being the only Dark Lord to ever tame the Dark Side completely?

Oh, Please. Not only did the Academy contain nothing on the actual Dark Side teachings of the Ancient Sith, but Bane's knowledge came from Revan-Malachor V's vast knowledge, among others, Freedon Nadd's-Sadow and King Adas's Holocron...Adas's Holocron being something even the Dark Lords hardly accessed given they placed it in the keeping of one Dark Lord to keep away from the others and Belia Darzu...someone who had developed techniques the Ancients did not have.
Last I checked, the Dark Side knowledge grows. People invent new techniques with it. The Ancient Sith were progenitors and people still ahd access to their knowledge. They built on it.
And Palpatine, had that entire repository of knowledge throughout all the Millenia, including numerous Jedi techniques which the Ancients just didn't have.


Funny you say that. Since said evidenceplacing them above him=...it kinda, y'know, doesn't exist.
More powerful? Palpatine's directly stated numerous times to be the most powerful force of the Dark Side ever
More knowledgable? Palpatine has all their knowledge, their spirits and everything developed in the interim?
Better combatants? "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." What were their GODLY fighting feats beyond a short, totally unimpressive duel between Naga and Ludo? Oh, right, all their forces couldn't overcome FOUR JEDI on Coruscant.
Such amazing combatants compared to someone who killed Agen Jolar and Saesee Tiin, two of the finest saber duelists the galaxy had ever seen before they could react and was able to force Mace Windu to his limits.

And considering one of your beloved Ancient Sith was obliterated in a force duel by Darth Wyyrlok of all people in the last issue of Legacy, what reason do I have to believe in their superiority?



Oh, please again. When YOU don't like it, it's hyperbole? Go on, point out the hyperbole in the instances.
I'm really interested now. Someone, a direct statement like 'being the only Dark Lord with power to tame the Dark Side' or 'Most powerful Master of Evil' who ever lived is hyperbole. Simple direct statements written in a scholarly manner just happen to be the only things subject to hyperbole when you don't like them. Funny that is.



Actually, it'd be enough to turn you into a laughingstock. Look how it worked for Nebaris.
But if you want to turn into IKC 2.0, be my guest.

Yes, because in any other character but him, you've always held a fair and rational mind to who can beat who. Don't kid yourself. It was always "He's more powerful, he wins!" It's called 'probability.'
Unproven premise? Been under a rock in this forum for the last few months? Last I checked, a few narrators say it quite clearly.
So, let's hear it. What do these pre-PT combatants have that can directly be used against other Sith Lords in combat in a direct fight? No, the onus is on you.
And frankly, don't try to strawman in. Nobody has ever claimed 'guaranteed' win. For instance, it's a consensus Palpatine would have a very hard time with Kun or Rule of Two Bane in a fight in his ROTS incarnation.

Lightsnake
Get off your high horse already, this overhanded arrogance has gotten really old.

And then he'll proceed to prove it. You ignoring it changes nothing



Yeah. Because you've seen so many arguments here, which just involved that single quoted handed in and nothing else, correct? Cool thing, though. Because I just remember pages after pages filled with stuff pointing towards Ragnos superiority. But in reality, it was just that statement. Gosh.
Yeah, pages and pages of distortion, ridicule and falsehood, with really nothing indicating Ragnos's superiority beyond it.
Nobody's denying the Ancient Sith are powerful Nai, and that Ragnos is high up on the list. But the extent he was held to was ****ing ridiculous and you know it.

I know English isn't your first language, so my apologies: I meant in regards to him being an incredible duelist

Oh, it 'doesn't matter' when a good nature of Palpatine's techniques are unknown, but when almost everything the Ancients could do is unknown?
We know one technique Palpatine had: he created an ability to lash out with his anger, from anywhere in the galaxy and kill the person he wanted. Seems to me something that's useful when your opponent has no idea what it is.



'Reduced to ashes?' Newsflash, Nai, but Kun HID that stuff below the temples and it was recovered. Nor was the devastation of Yavin nearly that complete given the surviving Brotherhood members, slavers, Krath, Terentateks and so forth. Hell, Complete Locations says some of Palpatine's trove came from excavating 'temples in Yavin 4...and Malachor? Holocrons are beautiful things, aren't they? Considering both Revan and Nihilus had them, and all that knowledge got posted to Palpatine thanks to owning Nihilus's Holocron and Bane put in all of his information to his Holocron...oh, and we can't ignore how Palpatine had frequently learned from the Spirits of the dead guys who were the progenitors OF THAT KNOWLEDGE...

If only he was capable of summoning and controlling people of long gone eras and had access to their Holocrons.
Wait.

Or....you could not ignore the ROTS novelization's direct statement, the circumstances of Mace's victory and that not once in the saber duel did Palpatine resort to Force Powers...
In a fight? That's one thing. In power? It's not much arguable Yoda's the best

You could argue for Anakin.
Not very well, mind you, but you could

Or one could just cite the ROTS novelization's line of narrative that declares Yoda most powerful foe the darkness had ever known. Which leaves Revan in second. And last I checked, Thon's there, too.
And Thon's credentials exactly? He contained the Dark Side on Ambria-and as we know now, he arrived after the world was cleaned of life...

On could argue it, sure. Of course, they'd need to ignore established canon and in Revan's case, present a lot of assumption.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
Eek. He doesn't present jack shit, Lightsnake, as you may have noticed. Not a single thing here. And he demonstrates why it's stupid to thrust quotes no matter what. Great job, though.
I've seen Gideon debate and I've had some complaints with his style.
He can sure present canon in a decent way, which is kind of important here. If he can present and cite me the quotes, why should I not consider them?

And I'm defending some of his points..

'Based on interpretation?' How much wiggle room is there exactly?


Based upon...?

Define 'able' to deny it. From a logical or reasonable standpoint? You can deny anything you want, sure, but there's a limit to where it's plausible deniability-Nebaris is a prime example.
And considering the amount we've both posted in the past on the subject, I'd say we're both islands in the 'who cares' ocean



'It's pretty obvious?' To...who exactly? I don't recall Lucas saying 'at this point.' It was a pretty clear statement on the matter. The biggest stretch I could see would be applying it to the prequels...unless you also want to argue Maul was capable of besting Palpatine in a duel.

And the question, IIRC was 'Why did Mace bring the B-team to fight Palpatine?'

Considering Lucas also says Anakin could have become strong enough to have beaten Palpatine if he hadn't been put in the suit and 'his son could become that'-granted not in the same breath, but still- I fail to see the contradiction.

Eh? Bane tricked the Sith as a group into destroying eachother...that kind of counts.
Karpyshyn's the one who invented the prophecy and as it is, Bane's the one he's fititng into it.

Oh, come ON. Look how powerful Bane is in Rule of Two. The fact the Sith switch to manipulation and secrecy gives them more tone to hone themselves given the rule of take an apprentice only if they have potential to exceed you and using Bane's Holocron which, I'll remind you, contains all of Bane's knowledge, consisting of all of Revan's knowledge-more than all the archives of Korriban, all of Belia Darzu's knowledge and all of Freedon Nadd's, which by extension would mean a lot of Naga Sadow's knowledge as well as from Adas's Holocron.
And in what other way would the Sith become more powerful? Honestly now, when do the Sith really value power beyond strength in the Dark Side and rulership of the Galaxy? When Bane was done, they had one of those

Ok, this is a really, really bad analogy.



If it's just a matter of opinion, fine. However, neither of us have been hesitant to defend our opinions and explain the reasons in an argument



I've argued this before, actually. Making a good argument for Bane without ever saying the word 'Sith'Ari' isn't hard. As much as I hate Bane as a character, his power's hard to ignore

That's not remotely how it goes and you know it. Just look at some of the chats I've had with Faunus on this forum on subjects related to thi

Gideon
I'm not particularly interested in debating this point any longer, Nai. It has been a constant circle of three years. All you do is sit and say "no" when I provide quotes and evidence. I'm growing tired of pointing out the hypocrisy and the lack of evidence. The fact that you think our contributions are equal even though my evidence is in mountains and yours is in handfuls has no merit to it. We're simply going to move on. I'm not interested in getting into flame wars any longer. I'm content with the fact that the pro-Ragnos mentality is long dead and gone and we have embraced a larger perspective.

It has been fun, though. Perhaps, if you wish to continue at a time when you disregard your constant baiting and allow yourself to be a little more relaxed in the mindset, I could be persuaded to continue. If not, carry on.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not particularly interested in debating this point any longer, Nai. It has been a constant circle of three years. All you do is sit and say "no" when I provide quotes and evidence. I'm growing tired of pointing out the hypocrisy and the lack of evidence. The fact that you think our contributions are equal even though my evidence is in mountains and yours is in handfuls has no merit to it. We're simply going to move on. I'm not interested in getting into flame wars any longer. I'm content with the fact that the pro-Ragnos mentality is long dead and gone and we have embraced a larger perspective.

It has been fun, though. Perhaps, if you wish to continue at a time when you disregard your constant baiting and allow yourself to be a little more relaxed in the mindset, I could be persuaded to continue. If not, carry on. Hey could you give me a reply to the PM I sent about my abilities as far as debating goes?

Gideon
Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not particularly interested in debating this point any longer, Nai. It has been a constant circle of three years. All you do is sit and say "no" when I provide quotes and evidence. I'm growing tired of pointing out the hypocrisy and the lack of evidence. The fact that you think our contributions are equal even though my evidence is in mountains and yours is in handfuls has no merit to it. We're simply going to move on. I'm not interested in getting into flame wars any longer. I'm content with the fact that the pro-Ragnos mentality is long dead and gone and we have embraced a larger perspective.

It has been fun, though. Perhaps, if you wish to continue at a time when you disregard your constant baiting and allow yourself to be a little more relaxed in the mindset, I could be persuaded to continue. If not, carry on.

For the record, I meant all of this genuinely. It was fun in that it was a challenge for patience. It is, as the Joker describes, "when an unstoppable force meets an unmovable object." You're not going to change my opinions and I'm not going to change yours.

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