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I am new this forum and have been reading many posts. I do not believe this one has been done before.

I am not as well versed on stars others but have read my different threads and came up with the one above.

I believe Revan will win.

Reasons:
One home court advantage
Two I believe Revan power level will be two high for Exar Kun to contend with on unfamiliar ground.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I am new this forum and have been reading many posts. I do not believe this one has been done before.

I am not as well versed on stars others but have read my different threads and came up with the one above.

I believe Revan will win.

Reasons:
One home court advantage
Two I believe Revan power level will be two high for Exar Kun to contend with on unfamiliar ground.

In a saber duel Exar Kun would win largely due to Revan being an unknown. In a force battle, while Revan has more dark side knowledge, Exar Kun DOES have his amulets so more than likely he'll win this too.

I don't think Revan ever powered himself off the Star Forge...

A Star-Forge empowered Revan is completely unknown, it can't be done accurately. However, assuming it would give a dramatic boost to his already powerful Force abilities... yeah, there's still no way to tell.

Originally posted by Tangible God
A Star-Forge empowered Revan is completely unknown, it can't be done accurately. However, assuming it would give a dramatic boost to his already powerful Force abilities... yeah, there's still no way to tell.

We can at least say that Revan will use the Star-Forge in the same way that Malak use it.

The question then is can Exar Kun take down Revan or defeat him more than once?

I doubt that Exar Kun could. If Revan was to lose one battle he might adapt to Exar Kun style by the second battle.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I am new this forum and have been reading many posts. I do not believe this one has been done before.

I am not as well versed on stars others but have read my different threads and came up with the one above.

I believe Revan will win.

Reasons:
One home court advantage
Two I believe Revan power level will be two high for Exar Kun to contend with on unfamiliar ground.

Question from the threads I have read it seems that many people are skeptical as to Exar Kun's ability to use the amulet. However, can the amulet instant kill a powerful force user? Any proof of that?

Originally posted by Kotor3
We can at least say that Revan will use the Star-Forge in the same way that Malak use it.

Unfortunately for you (and us in this scenario) Revan never allowed himself to become empowered from the Star Forge so we really don't know how powerful he could have been.


You do realize that anyone can drain the captives on the balcony like Malak did. If you are referring to what Bastilla did on the star forge then she really didn't die, she just had her energy(stamina) restored. If Kun stabs him then I really doubt Revan could restore his stamina/"energy" as there is a fair chance that the lightsaber stab/slash is instantly fatal. The star forge can't help him if loses a limb or if Revan is decapitated.



That is easier said than done considering because Revan's saber skills are unknown and we know that Kun's double bladed lightsaber is unique in it's hilt size and the fact that Kun could alter blade lengths.

This battle could really either way. Kun's gets the advantage in the saber department for the reasons Darth Sexy said. And a force duel could really go either way so right now I'm more inclined to say Kun wins but the fact that this takes place on the star forge could really give Revan the edge but we really don't know if Kun couldn't get a normal DS boost too because the star forge is a power object of the darkside.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I believe it has already been established that a dark user simply walking on the star forge does not empowered him. The star forge is the main reason the Rakata race was destroyed.

Just because you say it doesn't make it so, prove up. the star forge is huge object of the darkside unless you are willing to claim that it can hide it's dark side energies from kun. You don't have to know its secrets to get the normal dark side boost as you would get from being in any other area strong in the dark side.



There is no proof that Bastilla was anything really special without her Battle meditation or if she even had any lightsaber skills to contend with revan in the first place. We also don't know anything about the duels so don't go throwing around statements like "they most likely would not be able to do on their own." because for all we know Malak was dominating Revan for a most of the duel before Revan killed him.


Wrong, Revan would never drain jedi to gain strength/power because he was a lightsider (aka jedi) and Malak even says that the "energy"/remaining force power had a "dark taint" (Malak's exact words) so there is no way a lightsider/jedi Revan would want to receive a dark taint. Any darksider would have no problem draining captive jedi to gain power, any jedi would most likely not do this.


As you said that is speculation but it doesn't really matter here.


As I said the Star Forge is a huge (small moon?) object of the darkside that is something kun could detect and there is no reason why he couldn't get a normal darkside boost from it(like any other darkside planet,or place built by sentient life) just because he doesn't know it secrets. Unless you can prove that it can hide its dark side presence/"energy" from kun on some other frequency in the force.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I believe it has already been established that a dark user simply walking on the star forge does not empowered him. The star forge is the main reason the Rakata race was destroyed. One must be powerful enough and have knowledge of the star forge in order to use it.
I assure you that Kun is up there with Revan in terms of raw force abilities. He may be lacking in actual dark side knowledge but if Malak can use the SF, so could he.



The only advantage Exar Kun would have would be with his amulets. However, since Malak became very powerful while on the SF, how much more powerful would Revan be when empowered by the ancient device?

What incarnation of Revan is this? Is it Darth Revan or is it the postkotor Revan incarnation?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Just because you say it doesn't make it so, prove up. the star forge is huge object of the darkside unless you are willing to claim that it can hide it's dark side energies from kun. You don't have to know its secrets to get the normal dark side boost as you would get from being in any other area strong in the dark side.



There is no proof that Bastilla was anything really special without her Battle meditation or if she even had any lightsaber skills to contend with revan in the first place. We also don't know anything about the duels so don't go throwing around statements like "they most likely would not be able to do on their own." because for all we know Malak was dominating Revan for a most of the duel before Revan killed him.


Wrong, Revan would never drain jedi to gain strength/power because he was a lightsider (aka jedi) and Malak even says that the "energy"/remaining force power had a "dark taint" (Malak's exact words) so there is no way a lightsider/jedi Revan would want to receive a dark taint. Any darksider would have no problem draining captive jedi to gain power, any jedi would most likely not do this.


As you said that is speculation but it doesn't really matter here.


As I said the Star Forge is a huge (small moon?) object of the darkside that is something kun could detect and there is no reason why he couldn't get a normal darkside boost from it(like any other darkside planet,or place built by sentient life) just because he doesn't know it secrets. Unless you can prove that it can hide its dark side presence/"energy" from kun on some other frequency in the force.

As I stated before I am new to this. I hope I am posting correctly but how do you post in between quotes?

Ok Kun powers are heighten. What level will it heighten to and in comparison to someone who has knowledge of how the Star Forge works is unknown. So there nothing to prove there.

As for Bastilla, yes all we have it the game however, we do know that she was sent with the Jedi party to defeat Revan. She is shown fighting and defeating dark Jedi with her saber. She is mention as a skill Jedi in the game. If that is not enough for you then there is nothing I can say to you in reference to her. However, your opinion that Bastilla was only special for her Battle meditation is nothing more than speculation.

As for the duels, we do know that Malak was fearful of Revan as every other sith and Jedi was and would not face Revan in a duel. So I am not throwing around statements about Malak not being able to compete with Revan unless on the Star Forge. Unless you can prove that he or Bastilla could. If he was dominating Revan then all the more it shows how much more powerful the Star Forge made him.

I will be more specific, since this is a Star Forge empowered Revan he is not a light user. So you can say Revan before he lost his memory. Star Forge would not empower a light user. So my statement above still holds.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I assure you that Kun is up there with Revan in terms of raw force abilities. He may be lacking in actual dark side knowledge but if Malak can use the SF, so could he.



The only advantage Exar Kun would have would be with his amulets. However, since Malak became very powerful while on the SF, how much more powerful would Revan be when empowered by the ancient device?

I am sure Kun could use the Star Forge if he had knowledge of it. But the question is as you stated above since Malak became very powerful while on the SF, how much more powerful would Revan be when empowered by the ancient device?

Speculation, but if Malak was able to compete with Revan for a time then I believe it is a significant amount that Revan would go up.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I am sure Kun could use the Star Forge if he had knowledge of it. But the question is as you stated above since Malak became very powerful while on the SF, how much more powerful would Revan be when empowered by the ancient device?

Speculation, but if Malak was able to compete with Revan for a time then I believe it is a significant amount that Revan would go up. Again, there is absolutely no way to gauge Revan's power in this scenario. Can't be done. We don't know how long it took for him to defeat Malak, we don't know if Exar can tap into the Forge's inherent darkness. We just don't know anything about this, can't be answered.

Originally posted by Kotor3
As I stated before I am new to this. I hope I am posting correctly but how do you post in between quotes?
There are a few ways to do it. There is the cut/paste/ and hit the quote option under color. It may take a little while for you to do it correctly but you'll get use to it.


That is a fair point and I will somewhat get back to this point (but not directly) a little bit further down.



She was selected for the mission for her battle meditation, to aid in the trap and it is also possible she could have placed herself as bait to lure the sith but regardless of the reason there is nothing to suggest she could take Revan alone.


Great she defeated a random no name dark jedi who looks exactly like the other numerous no name dark jedi you kill during the game.


Well considering that her feats consist of being skilled in a BM, defeating a random dark jedi, fighting sith in a party of people, losing to Malak, landing a force push on Revan,Juhani and Jolee(i'd even question if the latter 3 were trying to kill her and using everything int their arsenal against her), then losing to Revan on the star forge and wielding a double bladed saber she really hasn't shown many impressive combat feats and considering using BM in a 1v1 duel is suicidal I'm more inclined to say she maybe an above average jedi in start wars but nothing more until she shows us otherwise.


I don't recall Malak being fearful exactly. About halfway through the star forge Malak wanted to ready the real defenses for Revan so he sent his men to slow them down. If malak was truly shitting his pants at the thought of revan coming to kill him than he would have escaped the star forge rather than face him. The duel and the battle outside the star forge was described as being epic. I will also address the final sentence of how powerful the star forge made malak below.




Now here is where things get interesting because on the star forge Malak says that Darth Revan (the incarnation you specified for this duel) is weaker than the lightside Revan that killed him(Malak) on the star forge while he (Malak) was empowered by it. So that raises the question of how powerful Darth Revan would actually be. Because we know that Darth Revan didn't use/know( according to Malak) the secrets of the star forge. And the only "secrets" of the star forge that could help Darth Revan vs Exar Kun is It also raises the question to me-Is Darth Revan still more powerful than kotor(SF) Malak who would probably become stronger once he was the DLOTS and if Darth Revan really is stronger than Darth Malak than by how much?

A) the star forge replenishing him as shown in the bastilla duel but that also makes me wonder if he has to be in that room by the object of the star forge to get his "energy" back the same way bastilla did and if so then what would happen if Kun uses his amulets or lightning on the object of the star forge and if the star forge could still replenish him with that object blown to bits by Kun.


B) the other secret relevant to 1v1 combat shown in kotor is the stasis holding the jedi captive which as I already explained can be exploited by any dark sider once they see it done. But then again those captive jedi were there because of Malak not Revan.

Now i will address this point of yours- If he was dominating Revan then all the more it shows how much more powerful the Star Forge made him.

As I already have explained that any darksider including Kun can gain the normal DS boost. but the secrets on the star forge that I addressed above were either not used by Revan (I recall a statement that he distance himself from the star forge) or B) not known to him as Malak suggests.

So what is a star forge empowered Darth Revan? Well based on what I have provided he seems to be a dark side being with a DS boost from the star forge and with the possible knowledge of the secrets demonstrated by Malak that Kun could either A) possibly destroy or B) replicate.(aka drain captives)

BTW welcome to kmc.

My apologies I made a slight error at the end of my above post. When I said "cause we know that Darth Revan didn't use/know( according to Malak) the secrets of the star forge. And the only "secrets" of the star forge that could help Darth Revan vs Exar Kun is "I added a sentence after I made the post so the secrets that I was referring to were the A) and B) points and the sentence about malak vs darth revan should not be where I placed it.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Again, there is absolutely no way to gauge Revan's power in this scenario. Can't be done. We don't know how long it took for him to defeat Malak, we don't know if Exar can tap into the Forge's inherent darkness. We just don't know anything about this, can't be answered.

A quote from a comment made by me:
Lastly before entering the Star Forge when Malak and Revan were together, Malak fear Revan and would not engage him in a one on one duel. We can speculate that the power level was a comparison of Vadar and Sidious, meaning Malak being 80% of Revan. A Star Forge empowered Malak was not fearful of Revan and as you stated gave an even more powerful Revan a hard time. Putting this together we see that the Star Forge did a lot for Malak.

So we can speculate that there is a sufficient boost given. How much? Well how much would be needed for Revan to surpass Exar Kun, since they are almost equal.

Originally posted by Kotor3
A quote from a comment made by me:
Lastly before entering the Star Forge when Malak and Revan were together, Malak fear Revan and would not engage him in a one on one duel. We can speculate that the power level was a comparison of Vadar and Sidious, meaning Malak being 80% of Revan. A Star Forge empowered Malak was not fearful of Revan and as you stated gave an even more powerful Revan a hard time. Putting this together we see that the Star Forge did a lot for Malak.

So we can speculate that there is a sufficient boost given. How much? Well how much would be needed for Revan to surpass Exar Kun, since they are almost equal. Doesn't work like that man. Speculation and "maybes" have no place here, despite the opinion of some. Of course there is a boost, but we've got no statistics (which we need). And your last statement doesn't apply to the versus forum, we work with what's presented, not with what's needed to give one side an advantage over the other based on nothing (despite the opinions of some).

Again, we can't conclude this fight fairly as Revan's power is already at unknown level, and we have absolutely no idea what the Star Forge's presence in this would do either him or Kun. This can't be done.

Originally posted by Kotor3


The same speculation about the benefits Revan would receive from the SF. The only benefit he WOULD receive is his knowledge of it, whereas Kun lacks that knowledge.




Except his saber skills are an unknown. He WAS the best in his era but you can't really quantify that without some concrete evidence.


Revan's "home court" is irrelevant since we don't know the power it gives him.



It's more than speculation. Exar Kun was a powerhouse and Revan was an unknown so logically we'd give this to Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The same speculation about the benefits Revan would receive from the SF. The only benefit he WOULD receive is his knowledge of it, whereas Kun lacks that knowledge.




Except his saber skills are an unknown. He WAS the best in his era but you can't really quantify that without some concrete evidence.


Revan's "home court" is irrelevant since we don't know the power it gives him.



It's more than speculation. Exar Kun was a powerhouse and Revan was an unknown so logically we'd give this to Exar Kun.

Dark Sexy I have read many of your arguments in other threads and have agreed with many of them. It is nice to argue against you statements.

Ok I agree until we know further Exar Kun wins in a saber fight. But please explain why Revan is an unknown. What is it that people need to know in other to realize he was a skilled saber user?

Besides Kreia and even she with force used three sabers, I do not know one powerful force user who was not very skilled with a light saber. Since we do not know the difference in power levels between Revan and Malak, we can logically state that Malak could not defeat Revan in all areas.

Explain how home court advantage is irrelevant. I already disregarded the power that the Star Forge would give as speculation thus we are not using that as a reference. However, Revan does know the layout of the Star Forge and will use that to his advantage. It is not like they will be fighting in a straight line, there will be movement and surroundings will definitely come into play.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Ok I agree until we know further Exar Kun wins in a saber fight. But please explain why Revan is an unknown. What is it that people need to know in other to realize he was a skilled saber user?

The reason why Revan is an unknown is because we don't any details(was he always winning his duels, did he almost die in duel, that sort of thing) of his duels only the outcome, and we don't what exact saber style he preferred to use or how many he even knew. We do know he was the top dog of his era but so was Kun,Bane,Luke,etc. so that alone doesn't put in the top tier of saber duelist in star wars.

Originally posted by Tangible God
A Star-Forge empowered Revan is completely unknown, it can't be done accurately. However, assuming it would give a dramatic boost to his already powerful Force abilities... yeah, there's still no way to tell.

Exactly, just a unknown battle.

Malak once clearly said that a Star Forge empowered Revan would be unstoppable.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malak once clearly said that a Star Forge empowered Revan would be unstoppable.

When did he say that? And that means jackshit because Revan didn't use the star forge the same way Malak did so you have no clue what he is going to do. Which is one of the reasons why this thread can't be done. and that alone doesn't put him above Kun btw.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malak once clearly said that a Star Forge empowered Revan would be unstoppable.

I forgot that the Star Forge imbued Malak with "omniscient narrator" powers.

Where did he say that legend? The only thing i recall mr bald headed jawless man is him saying "]you are now stronger than you ever were as the dark lord".

He said something along the lines of, 'All you ever saw was a gaint factory, all you ever imagined was an infinate fleet rolling forth to crush the republic. Perhaps if you had not been so Foolish then you might of become truly unstoppable' in relation to the 'true powers' of the Star Forge. After you kill him once but before you do it twice.

The line was indeed said after Malak drained one jedi. The exact line is You continue to amaze me Revan. If only you were the one to uncover the true power of the star forge you might have truly become invincible Then Malak says Revan "only ever saw an infinite fleet blah blah blah your blind and stupid."

Oh and Exodus you don't kill him until some point after the cutscene described above.

And as Gideon has said, just because Malak says it doesn't make it true.

Whoops.

And just because Malak isn't omniscient doesn't mean that it should be thrown out of the window. What he means is that No-one at the time could have stopped her (don't say it, I know), which is basically true.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Whoops.

And just because Malak isn't omniscient doesn't mean that it should be thrown out of the window.
Ok find then Darth Revan might have been viewed as "invincible" by Malak's standards that statement doesn't mean shit when Malak is not as powerful as Kun.


At the time there was no one powerful enough but then we put a powerful opponent like NJO Luke there then the almighty invincible SF Darth Revan would have died. Again what Malak views as "invincible" and what upper tier characters view as invincible are two different things.
And Revan is a guy ......I said it

B*ITCH!!! And after I specifically asked you not to as well. I know someone who's getting coal for Xmas

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I know someone who's getting coal for Xmas

Your mother

After reading up more on how Malak used the Star Forge I do not feel that this fight is so much of an unknown. Malak explain to Revan during there fight what he did in order to replenish his wounds and strength.

Revan after defeating Malak could have easily done the same. So I no longer feel that this fight is an unknown. Before someone repeats that any dark user can drain someone I have a question.

Can any dark user drain the force from someone and replenish there energy at the same time? According to Wookieepedia Force Drain and Drain Life seem to be to different techniques and not all dark users could perform both at the same time.

I do not know how canon Wookieepedia is but here a section from Wookieepedia:
Force abilities such as Drain life and Death field siphoned vitality to offer an equivalent effect of Force Healing, the difference being that the regenerative processes in the user was fueled draining the targets. Other techniques like Drain Force rekindled Force energy in the user draining those whom the power was turned upon. Some wielders of the Force were known to be able to obtain both results at the same time, like the Dark Lord of the Sith Darth Malak did in the last battle of the Jedi Civil War as he dueled his former Sith Master Revan. He used Force Drain to draw upon the power of captive Jedi who had fallen in the attack on Dantooine.

You don't know my mamma!! You don't be talking 'bout my mamma!!!















Or I will be comming to you house and I will wee on you!!

Originally posted by Kotor3
After reading up more on how Malak used the Star Forge I do not feel that this fight is so much of an unknown.

The only known combat feats he has killing two non force sensitives and what he did to a couple of Rakatan scouting parties, we don't know his saber style either therefore his power is still unknown

So because Malak used the star forge this way, than does means Darth Revan will too? Le me answer that no! because there is ZERO PROOF that Darth Revan ever knew the secrets that Malak did.



He drains the jedi of their "corrupted power "and transfers the "dark taint" to him. Don't confuse the gameplay (which we all do at times) aspect of him losing "life" as fact .


There is a big problem with your theory, Revan in kotor is a lightsider and this wouldn't drain the captive jedi even if there were any left. Furthermore if he (which is highly unlikely) it wouldn't mean shit here because there is no proof that Darth Revan knew,which is the incarnation being discussed here so, what kotor Revan does is irrelevant. Darth Revan doesn't have the future memories of Revan which is what it sounds like your implying which if that is the case is an incorrect assumption.


There is no recorded evidence that Darth Revan knew either attack. Malak did both according to wookieepedia due to the gameplay aspect of him losing "life" but his exact quote on the star forge doesn't mention anything about healing him. He says he is gaining their power/dark taint by draining them nothing about healing himself.


The facts are that there is zero proof that Darth Revan knew what Malak knew about the star forge, his saber style is an unknown while know that Kun had unique style that Revan would be unfamiliar with. We know both were strong in the force but we don't have any( save for what he did to the Rakatan scouting parties) force combat related feats for Darth Revan while Kun has many more. With that in mind I can't see how anyone can objectively say that Darth Revan wins when he is almost of an unknown as most of the ancient sith.

@ Exodus
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
You don't know my mamma!! You don't be talking 'bout my mamma!!!
Not yet but I hear stuff, so to quote Tucker from Red vs Blue when Christmas time comes its Bow Chicka Bow Wow!

I say Revan wins this..

1)More powerful in the Force. Has many forcce powers while Exar is only known for amulet blasts.
2)more skill w/ lightsaber supposedly but i don't think has gone up against someone who can change the blade's length tho..
3)Star Forge empowered.. gives Revan an Immense power boost. I'm not saying that Exar couldn't use the Star Forge to his advantage but he has no knowledge about it so I would assume that a Star forge empowered Revan should be able to harness the dark energy more effectively
4)More dark side knowledge
and idk wat else.. i'll come bak to this l8er..


oh forgot to note that exar has sith magic/alchemy too.. not sure wat this would do though

Originally posted by kotorfan
I say Revan wins this..

Did you read the whole thread? It has already been established that this thread can't be done accurately because there are way too many unknowns.


Not exactly true, while its been established that Darth Revan has broader knowledge(some people here have argued that it was mostly rituals and not helpful in combat but that's beside the point) than Kun, Darth Revan hasn't shown anywhere near the amount force powers Kun has. Kun has frozen the galactic senate, killed an ancient jedi master by lifting his hand, force choked about 12 of Luke's apprentices as a 4000 year old spirit,stated to be a master of force lighting, and he somehow disconnected Luke spirit from body.


That is definitely fanboy statement right there "more skill w/ lightsaber supposedly," we know nothing about his style other than the fact that he was the best of his time and Kun was too. We what we do know that Kun is the only known person with his type of DBL and has an unfamiliar form.


You have no way of quantifying the boost. As has been stated numerous times there is zero evidence that Revan knew the secrets of the star forge (malak also claims the same thing) and thus he would only receive a dark which Kun will too because he is also a darksider.


As I said many people on KMC have argued that most of the knowledge Revan had was rituals but the facts are most of the knowledge he attained can't be evaluated. Just because he has more knowledge doesn't mean he would win. Look at Count Dooku, he had more knowledge then Anakin but he still ended up decapitated.

@Kotor3

Originally posted by Kotor3
Elite you are really getting technical
By KMC standards not really.



Did you read your post? Well I post it anyway.



It is very clear that you are talking about the postkotor Revan here as you refer to him after he beats Malak and you are using the "monkey see monkey do," argument as reason that Darth Revan do what Malak did which as I said Darth Revan wouldn't have the memories yet so what ever Revan did after he killed Malak doesn't matter.



It is a very logical thing to do when A) Revan hasn't canonically shown us the ability to use force drain(though I'd speculate he does but we have no evidence that he does_ B) There is no proof he knew the secret and Malak's comments back that up.


According to Malak himself it transfers the jedi's power/dark taint to him there is nothing to suggest he was wounded and needed healing other then the fact that gameplay dictates that you have to take lower his health bar and as we all know gameplay isn't canon.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Since you use Wookieepedia as a resource before it is quite logical that Revan did know the technique.


Sorry for the double post but where the hell in this thread did I use wookieepedia as a resource? I got all my points from other sources for this debate and I hardly ever use wookieepedia and I never use it as primary source like you did in this thread.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Sorry for the double post but where the hell in this thread did I use wookieepedia as a resource? I got all my points from other sources for this debate and I hardly ever use wookieepedia and I never use it as primary source like you did in this thread.

Sorry wrong thread you use it on the Star Forge empowered Malak thread.

Here is your quote:
According to wookieepedia it took about 200 years after the star forge was built for the infinite empire to crumble after a civil war and plague(which takes longer than a day which this duel wont even take half that time).

So you do use it sometimes.

Sometimes=hardly ever.

Lol he still got you on that one Elite.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
WTF you going on about? I clearly said that I personally think he knows it but I also stated the facts, there is no canonical evidence of him using it or mention that he knows it.That is certainly a valid point to bring up when dealing with videgame characters and what powers they do and don't know as gameplay isn't canon.

That is why game play was not mention by me as a source. However, Elite if you are saying it is not logical to think that Revan who access dark techniques on Malachor V and other places before any of the people who did use it such as Keria and Malak did not know the technique that does not make sense.

The technique was not new, it was learn and then taught. Revan mostly taught it to Malak who was his apprentice.

Really because we do not see him using it but his student does means he does not know it. We do not read of Malak learning any new techniques while Revan was gaining his memory back.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Lol he still got you on that one Elite.



I would have got it from the game but I can't find my powercord for my xbox, for some reason neither kotor game can run any fights smoothly on my 360.

In my(weak) defense I would say there is a difference from using wookieepedia to get dates vs getting combat relative information and stuff of that sort.

But hey I'll give him that one since I got him on everything else

Originally posted by Kotor3
That is why game play was not mention by me as a source. However, Elite if you are saying it is not logical to think that Revan who access dark techniques on Malachor V and other places before any of the people who did use it such as Keria and Malak did not know the technique that does not make sense.

The technique was not new, it was learn and then taught. Revan mostly taught it to Malak who was his apprentice.

Really because we do not see him using it but his student does means he does not know it. We do not read of Malak learning any new techniques while Revan was gaining his memory back.

Again I think Revan does know it, but the facts are we have no definitive way to prove it as there is canonical evidence of him using or stating he knew it and people on kmc will use that against in a debates.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Again I think Revan does know it, but the facts are we have no definitive way to prove it as there is canonical evidence of him using or stating he knew it and people on kmc will use that against in a debates.

That is fine. It is not KMC, it is people in general who when it is in there favor do not take a logical deduction but state that need paper or statements to prove something.

Until someone gives me a reason as why logically he would not know the technique I am going to use it in my arguements.

Originally posted by Kotor3
That is fine. It is not KMC, it is people in general who when it is in there favor do not take a logical deduction but state that need paper or statements to prove something.

Until someone gives me a reason as why logically he would not know the technique I am going to use it in my arguements.

I understand where your coming from especially with this particular issue because it is very logical to assume he knows it but it is just the way we debate on here, you should read some of the more intense debates to know how much "proof"/evidence is needed/treated on kmc.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I understand where your coming from especially with this particular issue because it is very logical to assume he knows it but it is just the way we debate on here, you should read some of the more intense debates to know how much "proof"/evidence is needed/treated on kmc.

Believe me I have. That is why I sign in because it was entertaining. One thing people do not see is that in these versus it is all speculation mixed with facts. Some people try to say it is fact that a win will happen just because some one is stated to be more powerful.

I will be around.

Speculation? A little, but these debates are hypothetical meaning we conclude who wins and a fight between revan and kun would mean that it is very hard to conclude who wins seeing both has their strengths and weaknesses

We don't know how these two measure up to one another, that's the tough part.

Originally posted by Tangible God
We don't know how these two measure up to one another, that's the tough part.

I read post from all of you and other people for months maybe even a year or more before signing up. I am very much aware of how many of you view certain people in the Star Wars Universe.

I understand your style of argument Tanqible you must know everything before coming to a conclusion. That is fine. I do not understand why you keep posting on threads with Revan and trying to influence us into the same style of argument.

Is there statistics on Kun, such as a list of all the techniques that Kun knows in the force, his exact power level, all his combat history, etc? If so please show.

How does Kun measure up to Bane in force power? Can you answer that? All we know is that they both were powerful in the force. But what exactly were there levels?

I am ready to be educated Tanqible.

^
the problem is that Bane and Kun both have specific feats attributed to them (the thought bomb and amulet blast/ mind control of the senate respectively) that can be compared. Revan does not have specific feats known because a lot of his (her?) accomplishments are shrouded in gameplay. Revan is really too big of an unknown to debate effectively.

Originally posted by Jbill311
^
the problem is that Bane and Kun both have specific feats attributed to them (the thought bomb and amulet blast/ mind control of the senate respectively) that can be compared. Revan does not have specific feats known because a lot of his (her?) accomplishments are shrouded in gameplay. Revan is really too big of an unknown to debate effectively.

Your response says it all. I understand exactly what you are saying. Now let us use feats in our arguments.

Here is one you can help answer. Kun froze an entire senate except for Vodo. Would that work or Revan who is undoubtedly more powerful?

For the record Revan is canonically Male. You should know that.

You're right I should know that. I get the Exile and Revan mixed up. I have played both games enough that I know the responses to both genders, as I have the dialogue nearly memorized (what will be said next- not memorized enough to give a recitation.)

I don't believe that it would freeze Revan, as Kun didn't freeze his opponent in that confrontation. This may have been Sith alchemy, which would change the impressiveness of this feat. To be honest, I don't know much about Kun, but Wookiepedia and the other posters on here will correct me if i'm wrong (i hope). The example of the senate might best be used to illustrate the massive power at Kun's disposal. I don't think that Sith alchemy would help Kun in a duel, and Revan's versatility would certainly help. Kun's amulet, and sheer force potential certainly makes this a balanced fight.

My gut says Revan wins, but I just can't find enough evidence either way.

Originally posted by Jbill311
^
the problem is that Bane and Kun both have specific feats attributed to them (the thought bomb and amulet blast/ mind control of the senate respectively) that can be compared. Revan does not have specific feats known because a lot of his (her?) accomplishments are shrouded in gameplay. Revan is really too big of an unknown to debate effectively.

I'd say simple logical deductions are enough to put Revan on the level of Kun in terms of the force and force power:




Revan is a beast with the force, as is Kun, which leads me to believe it would come down to a saber duel, and while Kun is stated to be a Lightsaber Master, that title remains unquantified, we know his skill is enough to stalemate Ulic, and crush Vodo but thats about it. As for Revan he's the best of his era, but unlike Kun, Revan has FAR, FAR more combat experience then Exar, being as though he championed a war between pretty much the most deadly non-force using warriors in the galaxy, and defeating their leader in hand to hand combat also notes of his physical and combat skills. He then follows a war with Mandalorians by a war with the Jedi, and we know he massacred the Sith Academy by himself as well as tore through the Star Forge fighting droids able to kill Jedi Knights, Dark Jedi, beat Bastila being amped by the SF 4 times and Malak being amped by Jedi Life-force at least twice, all this with no rest as there was a fleet battle going on outside that Bastila was affecting so he had to get to her with haste. Its apparent that he has the combat experience on Kun off the bat.

Now his apperent skill with the blade, coupled with his awesome command of the force and his combat experience (ie: he wouldn't start shitting his pants when Kun busts out the other half of his saber like Vodo did) would in my mind be enough to stalemate Exar Kun, however, Revan is *known* for his Battle Precognition and its this that I believe will take the fight for Revan, as Brianna and the Exile showed that although a force user gets natural hints of where to attack and defend with the force, a force user with a talent in BP as the Exile does is an especially dangerous foe to combat with. And if were to believe that he posses the BP to the extent that KOTOR 2 alludes to ( it surpasses even that of the Greatest Echani who can predict battles months in the future) then his:

-Skill
-Force Power
-Combat Experience
-Battle Precognition
-His knowledge of the layout of the Star Forge

These factors will allow him to defeat Kun.

Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
I'd say simple logical deductions are enough to put Revan on the level of Kun in terms of the force and force power:




Revan is a beast with the force, as is Kun, which leads me to believe it would come down to a saber duel, and while Kun is stated to be a Lightsaber Master, that title remains unquantified, we know his skill is enough to stalemate Ulic, and crush Vodo but thats about it. As for Revan he's the best of his era, but unlike Kun, Revan has FAR, FAR more combat experience then Exar, being as though he championed a war between pretty much the most deadly non-force using warriors in the galaxy, and defeating their leader in hand to hand combat also notes of his physical and combat skills. He then follows a war with Mandalorians by a war with the Jedi, and we know he massacred the Sith Academy by himself as well as tore through the Star Forge fighting droids able to kill Jedi Knights, Dark Jedi, beat Bastila being amped by the SF 4 times and Malak being amped by Jedi Life-force at least twice, all this with no rest as there was a fleet battle going on outside that Bastila was affecting so he had to get to her with haste. Its apparent that he has the combat experience on Kun off the bat.

Now his apperent skill with the blade, coupled with his awesome command of the force and his combat experience (ie: he wouldn't start shitting his pants when Kun busts out the other half of his saber like Vodo did) would in my mind be enough to stalemate Exar Kun, however, Revan is *known* for his Battle Precognition and its this that I believe will take the fight for Revan, as Brianna and the Exile showed that although a force user gets natural hints of where to attack and defend with the force, a force user with a talent in BP as the Exile does is an especially dangerous foe to combat with. And if were to believe that he posses the BP to the extent that KOTOR 2 alludes to ( it surpasses even that of the Greatest Echani who can predict battles months in the future) then his:

-Skill
-Force Power
-Combat Experience
-Battle Precognition
-His knowledge of the layout of the Star Forge

These factors will allow him to defeat Kun.

Wow very good logical deductions. I like it very much. I know people are going to try to eat your argument. I would like to see what Elite has to say to your statments. You definitely brought up points I did not.

O.K. I'll bite.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
I'd say simple logical deductions are enough to put Revan on the level of Kun in terms of the force and force power:
- Kreia saying it was as if looking into the heart of the force Originally posted by ~A.C.S~ - Jolee literally seeing the force swirl around him
He calls it more of a breeze, and Jolee is by no means an expert.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- Ajunta Pal said Revans power was "blinding" to him, and that he bristled with the force. This is said (I believe) to a light side Revan in the Tombs on Korriban. It could be referring to his LS affiliation, or his power. Either way it is impressive.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- He being called a prodigy by Vandar at the end of KOTOR, and a prodigy as a knight before the mind wipe
A lot of that is establishing the tragedy of the fall, but Revan was a prodigy. So was Bastilla, who has ZERO impressive feats.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- Having the most complete knowledge of the Dark Side of the force that is second only too Palpatine that we know of

- Had the most advanced, highly developed form of Battle Precognition that allowed him to see the outcome of battles months into the future. (Anther thing that puts him above Darth Cadick whose only precognition failed him and lured him into the clutches of Lumiya)
The palps thing, I didn't know. thats cool. I don't know who Cadick is.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- Having his name be synonymous with power
My name is synonymous with Velveeta, and you don't hear me braggin. This just sounds like hyperbole.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- Bastila was literally feeling overwhelmed by the sheer magnitude of his power
As does this.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- His force mastery that surpasses Caedus whom himself surpassed Vader in terms of force power, who is you know 80% of Darth f*cking Sidious
1. proof of superiority to Caedus would help.
2. Force power and Force knowledge are different things. I would be extremely hesitant to call Vader's knowledge among the greats. If there is a source to the contrary I will change my tune, however.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- Him ripping through the Star Forges defense that were called a match for any Jedi, then beating Bastilla multiple times while she was being constantly revived and amped up by the Star Forge, THEN proceeding to beat Malak at least 2 times in a row while he was empowered by the Star Forge and revived by the life force of dead Jedi.
lets take this one at a time:
1. The Defenses: Good point.
2. Bastilla: her stamina was increased. A chopped off head or hand wouldn't be amped up, no matter what the gameplay did.
3. Malak: Again, watch out for gameplay. Malak wouldn't be regenerating "health" b/c that is a game mechanic. He would be 're-energized.'
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- Surviving and not being broken by the Dark Side power of Malachor (a PLANET full of raw Dark Side energy, which Kreia was broken by)
At that point he would have been a Dark Sider, and thus have been able to harness the DS energy, rather than be assaulted by it.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- His force bonding ability that he used en mass on his followers according to Kreia
Again, beware of trusting Kreia.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- During his start as Dark Lord the chronicles say his dark power was "tremendous" and only continued to grow, then in KOTOR he's stated as being stronger then he EVER was as the Dark Lord.
I never read 'em, so i'll take your word.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- Revan using force storms to slaughter Rataka scouting parties on Lehon
If in game, it's not the POWER force storm, just force lightning @ multiple ppl.
Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
- He slaughters the Sith Academy by himself (showed in KOTOR1, confirmed by Kreia in KOTOR 2)

- His holocron alone was enough in itself to turn Bane from a neophyte to a very dangerous, very powerful Dark Lord

- Sion, the mans whos pull on the force is so strong it holds his dead body together through sheer hate, admits to being his inferiority to Revan, he even goes as far as to give him the honorific "Lord" when he speaks of him, something he DOESN'T do for his current master or any of his peers
good to know. those three were all very impressive.



Revan has no notable Saber feats, and is still an unknown in combat with Force users. Your list did narrow the gap, and i'm still leaning toward giving the match to revan.

Because he's a sarcastic old man whom has an obviously antagonistic relationship with Revan as they insult each other constantly. But it doesn't change the fact that he can see the force around him, that followed with the quote from Ajunta Pal leads me to think that my explanation is indeed correct and Revans power is indeed awesome and he's just being an ass.




Cadick = Caedus.



Both are more of the verbal fellatio that help establish Revan as an extremely powerful force user.



See above.




I think if Starkiller is any precedent then Vaders knowledge of the force is considerable. Considering he raised and taught such a tank of a force user.




Which only adds to the impressiveness of the feat, as Revan was not trying to kill her as he's in love with her. And he still held off and defeated Bastila an enraged DS, being empowered by the SF whom was trying to kill him.




Re-energized/Empowered by the SF. Still makes for a hell of a feat, not only that but the duel was described by the Chronicles as "epic" and "vicious" so it was by no means a walk in the park for Revan.



To that point Revan hadn't fell to the dark side yet, when he plunders to city-tombs of Malachor is when he falls according to the Chronicles:

"As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side."



It serves no point for her to lie/embellish at that point, not to mention its alluded to by HK-47, Mical and every Jedi Master you encounter

I'm gonna have to admit that I know little of Revan outside of nearly memorizing the KotOR games and less than nothing (outside of wookiepedia) of Kun. I'm gonna but out of where I don't belong. I'm just wary of anything that looks like fanboyism, and a few of the feats seemed kind of trivial.

Originally posted by Jbill311
I'm gonna have to admit that I know little of Revan outside of nearly memorizing the KotOR games and less than nothing (outside of wookiepedia) of Kun. I'm gonna but out of where I don't belong. I'm just wary of anything that looks like fanboyism, and a few of the feats seemed kind of trivial.

Given the fact that he quoted an old argument from AC Styles in his post,leaves me to doubt that he is a "new member," if I had to take a guess I'd say he is Nebaris since AC Styles is not banned and he could post on his account if it were really him instead of going to the trouble of making a new account also of note is the initials of the account.

After the initial posts I never expected so many to come afterwards. Who every he is he made very good points. It would seem that Elite you won the argument about Revan not being empowered by the Star Forge.

A.C.S has brought up some feats and descriptions of Revan that I forgot and even though I still stand that Kun may initially put Revan on the defense I believe Revan will win for the things mention above and the fact that I believe Kun's over confidents will be his down fall.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Given the fact that he quoted an old argument from AC Styles in his post,leaves me to doubt that he is a "new member," if I had to take a guess I'd say he is Nebaris since AC Styles is not banned and he could post on his account if it were really him instead of going to the trouble of making a new account also of note is the initials of the account. I doubt he is nebaris because n00baris enjoys downplaying and disrespecting vader(funny because vader is merely sci fi character)while this guy is actually defending him.

Plus Nebaris doesn't like Revan that much and (I think) actually does like Kun.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I doubt he is nebaris because n00baris enjoys downplaying and disrespecting vader(funny because vader is merely sci fi character)while this guy is actually defending him.

I got to disagree.You don't think it is even a little fishythat his name A.C.S. is the initials of AC Styles and he even copied a quote from AC Styles argument from here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=483989&pagenumber=3 Plus if it was Styles would he not post on his real account? I don't think him standing up for vader would mean much because the only thing that I see that remains constant with Nebaris is his love of Bane and Sion.

You know you can look at these forums without becoming a member. This guy could have just copied Styles, or their names refer to something else.

No, your all wrong: I'am AcStyles, *insert insane laughter*

My auto re-log in finally ran out and cause if the massive amounts of ganja smoke I inhale my memory is horrible, and I forgot my password, and I created that account back in 2006 or something I had ALOT of email addresses back then all similar. So instead of wasting time trying to remember the password I just made a new account.

And just as I type that I remember my old password...go figure...

Originally posted by ~A.C.S~
I'd say simple logical deductions are enough to put Revan on the level of Kun in terms of the force and force power:

First off sorry I thought you were Nebaris.



That may very well be true but as we know knowledge doesn't equal power necessarily. Plus we have no way of knowing all the techniques that Darth Revan had that he can use in combat and how much of his knowledge were rituals.


I'm failry certain that Caedus shows battle precog. after he agrees to become her apprentice but it is doesn't matter much because Kun hasn't shown the ability to my knowledge. But I could eaisly say that Revan's battle precog failed him when Malak betrayed him.




In some regards such as Sith knowledge then yes he may very well surpass Caedus but to be fair Caedus has shown some pretty impressive powers that Revan hasn't from neither the jedi or the sith such as flow walking and the night sister blood trail.


Erm,you do realize that this Darth Revan before he lost his memories so neither of these has happened yet/


It is pretty impressive but they don't have a defense for it.



Is there any proof any that he fought in the front lines other then his fight with Mandalore becaue all we know is that Revan pwned the mandos with his strategie and beat their leader 1v1.


Kotor3 said this was Revan before he lot his memories so this hasn't happened should this be PostKotor Revan then I would probably agree with you that he would win this fight but with this being Darth Revan who is an even bigger mystery do the lack of knowledge on him I don't see how we can give a hundred percent answer as to who would win because of the lack exact knowledge of Revan's saber skills(style and how he won his 1v1 fights) and combat related force powers other then battle precog,force choke and force storm.



We know that he will be powerful in the force but I think we should wait for the novel to come out before we make our final judgement of his power and how it reflects on Vader.

I didn't bother quoting everything you said about his power becaue they all point out the obvious that he is really powerful in the force.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
First off sorry I thought you were Nebaris.



That may very well be true but as we know knowledge doesn't equal power necessarily. Plus we have no way of knowing all the techniques that Darth Revan had that he can use in combat and how much of his knowledge were rituals.


I'm failry certain that Caedus shows battle precog. after he agrees to become her apprentice but it is doesn't matter much because Kun hasn't shown the ability to my knowledge. But I could eaisly say that Revan's battle precog failed him when Malak betrayed him.




In some regards such as Sith knowledge then yes he may very well surpass Caedus but to be fair Caedus has shown some pretty impressive powers that Revan hasn't from neither the jedi or the sith such as flow walking and the night sister blood trail.


Erm,you do realize that this Darth Revan before he lost his memories so neither of these has happened yet/


It is pretty impressive but they don't have a defense for it.



Is there any proof any that he fought in the front lines other then his fight with Mandalore becaue all we know is that Revan pwned the mandos with his strategie and beat their leader 1v1.


Kotor3 said this was Revan before he lot his memories so this hasn't happened should this be PostKotor Revan then I would probably agree with you that he would win this fight but with this being Darth Revan who is an even bigger mystery do the lack of knowledge on him I don't see how we can give a hundred percent answer as to who would win because of the lack exact knowledge of Revan's saber skills(style and how he won his 1v1 fights) and combat related force powers other then battle precog,force choke and force storm.



We know that he will be powerful in the force but I think we should wait for the novel to come out before we make our final judgement of his power and how it reflects on Vader.

I didn't bother quoting everything you said about his power becaue they all point out the obvious that he is really powerful in the force.


Elite: That may very well be true but as we know knowledge doesn't equal power necessarily. Plus we have no way of knowing all the techniques that Darth Revan had that he can use in combat and how much of his knowledge were rituals.

Kotor3: The ones that were mention by Styles can be used in this discussion and is enough for us to make an argument for Darth Revan. True statement about knowledge, but the knowledge we are talking about is knowledge with understanding which is what makes Revan dangerous and of course would make him more powerful.

Elite: I'm failry certain that Caedus shows battle precog. after he agrees to become her apprentice but it is doesn't matter much because Kun hasn't shown the ability to my knowledge. But I could eaisly say that Revan's battle precog failed him when Malak betrayed him.

Kotor3: There will be no distractions for Revan in this one on one duel. He will be fully focused on Exar Kun.

Elite: It is pretty impressive but they don't have a defense for it.

Kotor3: Nonetheless it is an impressive feat.

Elite: Is there any proof any that he fought in the front lines other then his fight with Mandalore becaue all we know is that Revan pwned the mandos with his strategie and beat their leader 1v1.

Kotor3: We all know that Revan did not start off as a general in the Mandalorian war. Also he went against the Jedi council wishes to not participate in the war. No special privileges for Revan. Instead he gained prestige as the war went on for his skills and tactics. This would mean that Revan had to first be involved in front line combat before being elevated to the status he gained.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Kotor3: The ones that were mention by Styles can be used in this discussion and is enough for us to make an argument for Darth Revan. True statement about knowledge, but the knowledge we are talking about is knowledge with understanding which is what makes Revan dangerous and of course would make him more powerful.
Your stating the obvious but missing the point which I said earlier, yes has a broad knowledge in the force but as others here have argued that it could very well be rituals which are not relevant in 1v1 situations. Yes Revan probably has a broader knowledge in the force then Kun has demonstrated more offensive techniques then Darth Revan. So it is a hard call to make.




Erm, you missed my point that precog, isn't infallible.


It's impressive but it is nothing that others couldn't do or have done on a better scale but the difference is Kun stands a much better chance of blocking it or dodging it all together then primitive non-forcesentive rakatan.



I would like a quote that says that Revan started on the front lines. We have seen other jedi join the army and start as generals or high level officers so he doesn't necessarily need to start as a soldier he could have been a military adviser, but we need proof to understand his what is role is before he gain control of 1/3 of the republic fleet which a soldier fighting in the front lines were never become an admiral(2 different military organizations.)

I need to go so I'll get back to your response later tonight.