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1.lightsabers
2.force
3.all out
Kun get his amulets for this match

kun, in all 3.

I don't he wins #1.

Dooku takes sabers, and possibly the all out. It seems these amulet blasts are a tad overrated.

Kun, for sure. all three.

Dooku would tool him in sabers.

Agreed.

Kn has done nothing that makes me think he's above Dooku.

Dooku wins the sabers, loses the force, and possibly, depending on the circumstance, wins the all-out.

Why force, because of the "Uber amulet blasts?" Apparently he hurts him the more he uses them and they become harder to control. I think Dooku would outclass him here. Dooku is, after all, one of the absolute best Jedi in its entire history and an even greater Sith. You don't earn that reputation by not doing much. And that would also include Kun's era. Kun doesn't have that impressive of a resume anyway.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Why force, because of the "Uber amulet blasts?"

Yes, that could certainly be one ways to win. Dooku is not even shown having knowledge about such tools to begin with. Not to mention, even if he attempted to defend against them, they double in strength with each pulse.

But then again, Kun has a myriad of combat effective abilities that died with him. Please inform me how the Count plans on countering these techniques when he hasn't even so much as heard of them.



It seems you've been putting too much stock into what Styles would like to believe. For reference, Kun was still able to direct the beams before he gained any intimate knowledge of Sadow or how to operate the gauntlet. He has now not only mastered Naga Sadow's teachings, but had a gigantic leap in power to the point where he becomes one of the most powerful Sith ever to exist (which happened in a mere few months, a testament to Exar's learning potential).

There's absolutely no reason to assume that he cannot control the beams and that they would hurt or destroy him.



I think Dooku would be shitting his pants and wishing he had Sidious' help. The difference between my assumption and your's is that mine is backed up my evidence (see above, see below).



And this means proves he'd be able to "outclass" Kun how exactly? The same Kun who didn't need decades to achieve such a status, but a mere few months.



Apparently you do, considering Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar are named as among the greatest swordsmen in the Order's history despite doing jack shit besides getting owned by Sidious.



Which is totally irrelevant. The statement regarding his stature never implies he is better or more powerful than Kun simply because he's before him.



Right:

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/5153/senatesithspellni1.th.jpg

Kun is shown capable of freezing and controlling possibly near millions (hundreds of thousands at the very least) of sentient beings, all of whom are of different species. He's even doing such while he's toying with his former master, Vodo - meaning his concentration wouldn't have been completely focused on the task of keeping them watching.

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7326/kunpwnsodanxa0.th.jpg

Here we see Exar resisting the effects of the "most devastating attack" the light side of the Force has to offer. An attack performed by Odan Urr who was proficient in the Force, which is noted by his dialogue that he stripped Ancient Sith of their Force powers. In response to the attack, he owns the thousand year old Jedi Master with a wave of his hand.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/3866/aleemasithmagicux4.th.jpg

He also casually shrugs off Aleema's Sith magic and counters with his own, which knocks her out cold.

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/2147/kunmasterswordsmanar3.th.jpg

As seen above, he stalemated Ulic Qel-Droma in a duel that is described as being able to go on for hours. This would be the man who defended himself against an enraged Jedi tapping into the dark side of the Force while being stripped of the Force and out of practice for years (among numerous other feats which secure him as one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the history of Star Wars).

- In Dark Apprentice, he renders virtually every defense a post-DE Luke knew (who learned from DE Sidious, Yoda, Obi-Wan, etc.) completely ineffective as he rips Luke's spirit from his body. Which was done as a 4,000 year old, half-mad spirit.
- He deep fries Gantoris from the inside out as that same weakened spirit.
- He chokes a dozen of Luke's students, which again happens as a spirit.
- Is so powerful that the ground beneath him shakes when he walks on it.
- Created his own unique weapon and thus, style. It would take intricate knowledge of lightsaber combat to be able to do such a thing.
- Has ancient Sith knowledge that he and he alone possesses.
- Was able to defeat his six hundred year old master, Vodo Siosk-Baas while he was still an apprentice (it's true he was put on his ass the first pass though).
- Became one of the most powerful entities in Star Wars in a few months, which as I said above, speaks volumes for his learning potential.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head, but try knowing what you're talking about next time, my dear.

Originally posted by Advent

- In Dark Apprentice, he renders virtually every defense a post-DE Luke knew (who learned from DE Sidious, Yoda, Obi-Wan, etc.) completely ineffective as he rips Luke's spirit from his body. Which was done as a 4,000 year old, half-mad spirit.
- He deep fries Gantoris from the inside out as that same weakened spirit.
- He chokes a dozen of Luke's students, which again happens as a spirit.
- Is so powerful that the ground beneath him shakes when he walks on it.
- Created his own unique weapon and thus, style. It would take intricate knowledge of lightsaber combat to be able to do such a thing.
- Has ancient Sith knowledge that he and he alone possesses.
- Was able to defeat his six hundred year old master, Vodo Siosk-Baas while he was still an apprentice (it's true he was put on his ass the first pass though).
- Became one of the most powerful entities in Star Wars in a few months, which as I said above, speaks volumes for his learning potential.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head, but try knowing what you're talking about next time, my dear.

I heard this "ground shaking" bullshit from the likes of Janus and IKC, but I didn't expect it from you. Please show me a source that states this, and I hope you're not referring to the rodian above Yavin IV who possibly has no idea what he's talking about.

Really, and it REEKS of hyperbole.

Originally posted by Advent
I can't think of anymore off the top of my head, but try knowing what you're talking about next time, my dear. God, I love you.

Originally posted by Advent


Yes, that could certainly be one ways to win. Dooku is not even shown having knowledge about such tools to begin with. Not to mention, even if he attempted to defend against them, they double in strength with each pulse.

But then again, Kun has a myriad of combat effective abilities that died with him. Please inform me how the Count plans on countering these techniques when he hasn't even so much as heard of them.
Died with him? According to...what, exactly? Kun had absolutely nothing he didn't learn from earlier eras and according to Jedi vs. Sith, they've lasted to Palpatine's time and era.



It's a testament to his learning abilities, yes. Problem? Nothing Kun faced with those beams was capable of defending itself against them. Not with force shields, energy manipulation, snapping his arm back with the force, hurling him back with a force wave, not a thing. Yes, they 'double in strength.' But I don't recall them getting anywhere near as twice as big as a body, let alone to the level they've been espoused to have


And? It matters how long they took to attain that how? All it is is a testament to that Kun is far inexperienced as a combatant to anywhere close of the level Dooku is.



Being renowned warriors in more than a few conflicts, putting Quinlan Vos on his rear end in moments? That seems a bit more.



Nonsense. The Galactic Senate by ROTS times consists of about...400 0 chairs. Unless something dramatic changed, and the onus would be upon you to prove it did, then there's nothing CLOSE to that there.

Irrelevant. It's a Sith Spell. Meaning once you cast it, it's done. There's nothing indicating that he has to keep concentrating for it.

And considering Odan-Urr's possibly the most useless Jedi ever and wasn't anything resembling 'proficient' in anything but battle meditation- in fact, Oppo Rancisis kicks his ass with that- and that most of the powerful Sith were dead by the time any combat occurred between Odan and a member of the race and the only time that move is performed with any sort of success in TOTJ is by a non resisting Ulic.
So, let's not go around proclaiming that resisting a move like that is a mark above anything short of 'competence.'

The totally worthless guy with no proper showings of powers whatsoever. Palpatine could have owned T'ra Saa with a blink and she's far older than a thousand. Don't throw around age like it means anything there.

This would mean something if he wasn't there to:
A. kill her, ergo merely knocking her out cold seems counterproductive
B. Aleema was anything resembling 'impressive' by big boy standards
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/2147/kunmasterswordsmanar3.th.jpg

And Dooku isn't one of those great duelists? Yes, he stalemated Ulic. Dooku has been able to take on Mace in the past. In effect, Dooku's got just as much going for him as Kun

Let's refer to this a bit more honestly:
he does this with the help of two sided assault from Kyp, against a Luke who was holding back, caught unprepared and had never been taught to defend himself against Sith techniques from any of the above for pretty obvious reasons and let's not recall Kun was much stronger there due to the detail of having recently been glutting on Gantoris's life force and all the dark energy of Yavin 4 that he'd left there.

And? Gantoris practically held the gun to his own head

He performs basic Dark Side actions and is still bested by Streen? Righto.

Let's see some proof of this. KOTOR's hyperbole nonwithstanding...I recall seeing Kun walking a lot...one would think the comic'd point out this shaking.

Absolute nonsense. Jedi vs. Sith confirms he was following instructions left by the Jedi Exiles for that weapon. And thus style.

Jedi vs. Sith kind of confirms you wrong again. Kun had notihn but knowledge he gained from Sadow on Yavin. Plenty of Sith had FAR more time to study Sadow's knowledge and master it.

Let's see Vodo's godly feats now. Somehow...I don't think they exist.

Speaks more for KJA's writing ability

I might pose the same to you.

I just simply don't have all the resources to go back and forth with her. Glad you do though.

I'm not going to argue Kun likely>Dooku in a force duel...but some of the exaggerations on him..

I don't see where we are supposed to be impressed by Exar Kun's feats against Ulic Qel Droma off of the assumption that he is one of the best ever. The omniscient narrator of the RotS novelization and other sources have already stated that Dooku is one of the best there ever was. No such statement for Qel Droma.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Let's see Vodo's godly feats now. Somehow...I don't think they exist.


Fighting Kun on two separate occasions armed only with his walking stick. Making said wooden stick lightsabre-resistant (not completely immune, but able to withstand repeated strikes that were both powerful and precise) purely through his command of the Force.

Maybe not 'godly,' but still pretty darned impressive.

OT- About that Odan Urr fight, I'm curious, just how did Kun kill him? I got the impression that Kun used the Force to stop his heart. Anyone have any thoughts?

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't see where we are supposed to be impressed by Exar Kun's feats against Ulic Qel Droma off of the assumption that he is one of the best ever. The omniscient narrator of the RotS novelization and other sources have already stated that Dooku is one of the best there ever was. No such statement for Qel Droma.

Facts speak louder than statements.

Qel was able to hold off an enraged Jedi who was going all out trying to kill him. At the time, Qel had been blinded to the Force and hadn't even held a lightsabre for a decade.

And when he was at the peak of his prowess, Kun matched him perfectly.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Facts speak louder than statements.

Qel was able to hold off an enraged Jedi who was going all out trying to kill him. At the time, Qel had been blinded to the Force and hadn't even held a lightsabre for a decade.

And when he was at the peak of his prowess, Kun matched him perfectly.

Actually, they don't. Statements issued by omniscient narrator = irrevocable fact. Assumptions based off of feats are open to interpretation.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Fighting Kun on two separate occasions armed only with his walking stick. Making said wooden stick lightsabre-resistant (not completely immune, but able to withstand repeated strikes that were both powerful and precise) purely through his command of the Force.
Fighting and losing. The second time without much effort on Kun's part. This isn't exactly incredible.
And the stick thing...Ruusan Jedi could do that too if Torr Snappit is an indication. Hell, Corran Horn can do it to his skin.

Not nearly to the level people try to put Vodo at

Wasn't Vodo capable of using the force from the other side of the galaxy, or did he just sense stuff. Even the latter is quite good considering that he could sense Kun even on Korriban, or whatever.

You mean he could do what Jedi are supposed to do? He was able to...contact the Padawan he had a bond with?
This puts him on the level of young Mara Jade, even.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Died with him? According to...what, exactly?

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook:

"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun...(keep in mind that even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know of the Sith powers)." (Chapter Four: Echoes of the Sith, pg. 50)

It draws a clear distinction that what he had acquired from Sadow was exclusive to Nadd and himself.



Something I never denied and continuously imply by stating "Sadow's teachings", etc.



Which is written under a section entitled "Sith Alchemy". It stands to reason that it was referring to Naga Sadow's alchemical knowledge, which is supported by Sidious' own appendum. How does this account for the private notes he left on Yavin IV (notice that it's never stated where he secured this holocron)? It doesn't.

One could also point out that it's well known that Kun and Nadd learned from Sadow, but he never specifically states that what the secrets they had learned and the ones contained in the holocron were the same. Sidious merely asserts that he'll keep what he gathered secret. Therefore, there would be no contradictions between the JA Sourcebook and JvS. Reading comprehension is your friend, try again.



Neither are the Death Star's superlasers. Following your line of thought, its superlasers won't work against anything that can defend itself simply because they've never shown to. The amulet beams would clearly disintegrate anything they came into contact with, as evident by the fact they tear through a monstrous Sith Wyrm and blast solid rock apart, if the beams came into contact with a material being, we're shown what would happen:

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/80/eachblastconsumesbo3.th.jpg

It doesn't matter whether or not they can be blocked. To stress the point so even you can understand it, I'll use a character you like: Sidious' lightning is shown being able to reduce three prophets into dust, but it can still be dispersed or deflected. Does this mean that it will be completely ineffective in a fight if the attack connects? By your doltish reasoning, yes.



In the context of this fight, do you honestly believe Dooku wouldn't have to expend a ridiculous amount of energy just to block the first beam (that's assuming it doesn't overpower him anyways)? We know that the power behind the amulet beams are enough to blast through a Sith Wyrm and still travel with the same apparent force that it began with. We also know that to shield yourself from an attack, you'd be draining yourself. Given the sheer intensity of the beams, I'd surmise that Dooku would be exhausting a rather considerable portion of his power. It'd be useless anyways because another blast that's twice as potent would follow behind.



As the scan posted above depicts, the amulet beams eclipse Kun's body by the end of the page. Considering as they're shown to expand in diameter as they travel, it's safe to say that they would've only gotten larger.



Oh, I don't know. Maybe because...



...it's testament to the fact that Dooku nor any individual in the Star Wars mythos (aside from Darth Bane) possess the same learning potential as Kun. And as we've seen clearly demonstrated by Bane and Anakin - a faster learning rate generally correlates to power.



There are dozens of Jedi who are described in the same manner, does this make them among the greatest swordsman too? One of those dozens being Odan Urr, the guy you dubbed to "the most useless Jedi ever" below.



Flooring Quinlan Vos somehow grants one access to the greatest swordsman club? Good to know. Not to mention, only of the two aforementioned accomplished this feat.



To assume otherwise is nonsense.



The Galactic Republic had over one million member systems as of the PT era and over fifty million colonies. As Ulic Qel-Droma had committed the most grievous of crimes (against civilization) against the Republic, the trial should've been attended by all representatives considering the time of war. Then you could also factor in their guards, etc. It's safe to say there was hundreds of thousands as compared to "4,000", which is just asinine.

From an outside view, we're shown exactly how large the Senate Hall actually was:

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/6681/grandsenatehallpx8.th.jpg

The structure is vast. Much larger than anything man-made on Earth. Then, we're given an encompassing perspective on how large the inside is:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2994/senatebirdseyeviewin5.th.jpg

Notice that the place is congested to the the very top, every single section being filled. From a similar same view, this is what the biggest football stadium in America looks like:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/166/michiganstadiumxj7.jpg

That is the Michigan Stadium, which holds a capacity of a hundred thousand. You're assuming that a clearly much larger structure only housed 4,000 senators when from the comics it's apparent that there is hundreds of thousands of beings present (at the very least).



I'd say 4,000 years is a rather dramatic change, Lightsnake. Especially considering the Senate Hall and the Senate Rotunda are not the same structure.



But there is. Just because you refuse to admit to it, doesn't make it untrue.



Since when did you become an authority on Sith spells, Lightsnake? Did you suddenly train under Sadow during my absence?



Besides the fact that he would have to dictate where the senators eyes follow? Indeed, given that Kun is constantly on the move (from the podium to the ground, fighting Vodo, etc.), it would seem logical that he had to maintain a level of concentration to control what they were watching. Further supported by the fact the spell only wore off when he left.



Originally posted by Advent
I'll tell that to the soldiers that were saved by Odan's meditation.

Originally posted by Advent
Right:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/2756/odansavesthedayjv0.th.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1843/odanmeditationgn0.th.jpg
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1648/odanpwningbw6.th.jpg

So as it would seem Odan wasn't useless, and Memit Nadill even gives his praise, and it's obvious that his Battle Meditation was needed to win the battle. So, for you to downplay him is ridiculous. Good thing, though, that I have the actual source material and logic to prove that assertion wrong.

Perhaps, Odan as a young Jedi Knight may have been useless (he wasn't), but to assume Odan Urr after a thousand year is? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Anakin in TPM useless? Didn't he grow more powerful? Why yes, he did. Odan stripped Ancient Sith of the Force after the events of his younger days, he fully mastered his Battle meditation, and spent a great deal of time reading upon the Force. He also was good enough to teach Nomi both of those techniques. To say that Odan is shown as "useless" is ridiculous, because you're talking about Odan Urr...oh say, 985 years ago?

By this logic, Mace Windu must suck because he was beaten by Dooku. But then you take into account, he plainly improved, and there you go. Odan Urr obviously improved, and had more than ample time to do such. A young, inexperienced Jedi Knight < A wise, and proficient Jedi Master.

I encourage you to feel free to stop posting the same, age-old arguments that have been stomped time and time again.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/260/odanteachesnomiuy9.th.jpg

"I myself became adept at such powers " - Odan's own dialogue seems to indicate otherwise. A preemptive point: he notes himself that he is "more of a scholar than a fighter", so there's absolutely no reason to assume he was being arrogant in proclaiming such.

He also taught the technique to Nomi and Vodo, if you recall. Which pretty much cements the fact that he had fully mastered it. Even your own personal bible (JvS) states:

"A powerful Jedi can block a Force-user's access to the Force, preventing him or her from using Force skills or Force feats."

I guess Odan is incompetent, Lightsnake, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.



Which is largely irrelevant, even if it is true. The fact that he had became "adept" in an ability that only powerful Jedi can perform and had past successes with it is all that matters.



That was shown, yes. In that instance, Nomi remarks that she didn't expect the technique to be "so strong...so complete", yet Kun outright resists the effects of the "most devastating attack" the light side has to offer executed by a Jedi who had millenia to perfect the technique.



See above, it's the most powerful ability a light sider can possess. Let's not go around proclaiming that resisting a move like that is a mark below anything short of "godlike".



See above, arguing from ignorance only makes you look foolish.



Firstly, I was using his age as a placeholder for his name - initially, I meant nothing by it. Secondly, given his age allowed him to study the Force for a millenia, it certainly does.



His intent changed when she called him a "pretender" and attacked him with Sith magic. In response, Kun gives her a dose of her own medicine to prove that he "has learned everything!", as he states. Essentially he wanted to prove that anything she could do, he could do better.

Also, you seem to be forgetting he was also there to kill Ulic ("my enemies", who would've been a much more important factor as she didn't present a threat whatsoever at that point.



How does that follow from "he wasn't there to"?

Anyways, it's made clear that she is adept at performing Sith magic - she creates mass illusions on a grand scale and the omniscient narrator states she was "proficient" in such. Kun casually shrugs off her assault and counters with his own that topples her usage of the power by knocking her unconscious, which is striking in itself.

"Big boy standards"? Puh-leaze.



...read what I was responding to. It doesn't matter if he is or not.



Clearly since you seem to lack the ability to comprehend, Subjekt said that he failed to see what was so "impressive" about Kun's resume. I was listing his feats, which had nothing to do with Count Dooku.



Coming from you and your past of dubiousness, that's a laugh.



Unless you were willing to argue that a greenhorn Kyp Durron and the spirit of Exar Kun are < Kun in the flesh, then this loses its importance in the discussion.



Relevance? None? Thought so. Even if he were holding back (which I question to begin with), it doesn't change the fact he was desperately searching for a defense, all of which failed completely. Or that he couldn't summon enough power to resist it.



Relevance? None? Thought so. He had enough time to attempt every defense he had ever learned and activated his lightsaber when he confronted Kyp. How "unprepared" could he have been?



Unsurprisingly, you fail to grasp the point: he rendered virtually every defense that post-DE Luke knew utterly useless. This would be the same Luke Skywalker, who is - as I'm sure you'd be the first to agree - the most powerful Jedi at that point. That he had neither the knowledge or power to defend against the attack, it speaks volumes for Kun's powers and his Sith abilities.



"Much stronger"? That's a blatant lie:

Originally posted by Advent
"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students."



Originally posted by Advent
How about you actually provide viable evidence before typing, as you'll find it makes your response rather worthless.

1.) Prove that Kun 'tapped into' these supposed sources of energy he had after killing Gantoris. It's funny, since even the secondary, fallible account (I, Jedi) doesn't make any note that he did such, as far as I've checked.

The only thing that vaguely resembles your argument is dialogue between characters:

"I thought I heard someone - Bodo Baas, perhaps - say the temples here had all been raised as a focus for Exar Kun's power. Maybe this temple isn't the focus of it, but just linked to it. If the link was forged of Sith magic, Exar Kun might be able to block back-tracing. Another of the temples here, then, would be the centerpoint of his power."

And that doesn't support what you're saying either, because even after Kun trapped Luke at the actual centerpoint and put him in a comatose, he was "still was not ready to take on Luke directly", because he was not powerful enough. Which leads one to believe that the temples only preserved his strength enough to remain a spirit for thousands of years (much like the Ancient Sith on Korriban). Luke even wonders as to why Kun would still be lingering around, and not have vanished entirely, and that's the reason. Which leads me to #2.

2.) Prove that these sources even enhance his power anymore than they did to simply keep his spirit from diminishing.

3.) "With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear. Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p. 49)

If the temples made him more powerful than he was in the flesh, then why are the students that he needs energy from] the only ingredient said to be used to revert him back to his physical form? The only "sources" that are said to increase his strength and power are that of actual Force sensitives, and their emotions. Golden Globe? No, not even mentioned in either account. Massassi Temple? Only used to sustain his spirit from becoming nonexistent. Yavin? Uh, prove up.

And here I thought we were taking the "honesty" approach.



You say "and?" as if this is something Force spirits that have been weakened over the span of 4,000 years actively do. *Hint*: they don't.



While I'd agree that the ability to Force choke is basic, the ability to choke twelve victims at once as a spirit is not however. Stop trying to downplay Kun's feats.



I wonder how hard it would be to defeat someone when you have the knowledge on how exactly to do such.

This would be like saying because I can defeat the strongest boss on the hardest setting of the most difficult video game since I was given insights on how to do such, the boss is weak.



It was testimony from a Rodian, the same Rodian who's testimony you so trusted in this thread. However, I'm willing to drop this point because, as I said, the feats I listed were off the top of my head. I didn't realize that he was the source of the ground quavering comment.

Jedi Vs. Sith is an in-universe narrative, which makes it subject to fallibility. That fact notwithstanding, I've reviewed the source and it states that it the imaginary holocron was "possibly" left by the Exiles, not "confirmed". Quit twisting quotes around.

Which leaves the question: who created this magical holocron then and where's there any evidence of its existence? Perhaps Tionne Solusar should put down the spices for awhile.



Leaving instructions on how to construct a weapon and leaving instructions on how to wield said weapon are two majorly different things. It is a huge unsupported assumption to say that it contained the knowledge of a corresponding lightsaber form.



The only Sith that we can confirm knowing Sadow's private notes are Kun, Nadd, and Sadow himself. The teachings died with Kun and it is stated that it's extremely unlikely any records survive elsewhere.



Being able to defeat your master as an apprentice is rather impressive, especially when you consider put Kun on his ass by just by using "the skill of long experience". He was a revered Jedi Master and clearly powerful in the Force demonstrated by the fact that he could also sever one's connection to the Force and was able to imbue his walking stick to the point where it was "more powerful than a lightsaber".



Care to point out the relevance in this statement to what I wrote? Or should I put out that there is none? Oops.



Then you'd only be making yourself look more harebrained than you already have.

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't see where we are supposed to be impressed by Exar Kun's feats against Ulic Qel Droma off of the assumption that he is one of the best ever.

It's a rather sound assumption, Gideon. He was already describes as a "master swordsman" when he was in his twenties, the only other person who I know that was described as such being Anakin "The Greatest Lightsaber Duelist of the PT" Skywalker (and of course, Exar Kun).

He defends himself against an enraged Jedi Master, tapping into her emotions a la TPM Kenobi - all while being cut off from the Force for a decade. You'd also have to factor in that he was out of practice with a lightsaber for years as well, and as we see in ANH, this effects one's skills considerable (Ben Kenobi's skill had deteriorated).

He was at a severe disadvantage given the fact Sylvar possessed the ability of precognition and the ability to enhance her physical attributes due to the Force (not to mention, the Cathar are known for strength). Based on that alone, it would stand to reason that Ulic in his prime must've been one of the most talented beings ever to pick up a blade. His feat is unmatched by anyone who doesn't have at least a connection to the Force. And General Grievous doesn't count.



Tell me, what does with what I responding to?



Absence of a narrator doesn't make it untrue. It's a logical deduction, and a quite safe one to make.

In response to the learning rates Advent, I think Luke had one hell of an accelerated learning rate. He had virtually no real knowledge of the force or lightsaber combat during the movies, and he still managed to use both to his advantage. It may not be on the level of Kun or Bane, but that doesn't say much. Luke had nothing to work with until Palpatine was destroyed the first time. He became vastly more powerful during his brief training with the reborn Emperor.

Also, the biggest football stadium resides in Pasadena California.

One last thing. I don't know how accurate this may be but I thought the most powerful light side maneuver or manifestation is achieving oneness with the force, which was done by Jacen during the Vong war and by Luke, I forgot when.

No one denied that it was a "sound assumption", Advent. But as I explained to chilled monkey, statements made by the omniscient narrator of a specific source (and there are multiple sources that attest to Count Dooku's competence and legendary skill with a lightsaber) are unquestionable whereas "sound assumptions" are. In essence, what I mean to point out is that while I appreciate the point you made and agree with you that Ulic Qel Droma is the shit, that doesn't even begin to suggest that Droma or Kun are on par with the Count in lightsaber prowess. Nor does the fact that he tooled Vodo; with respect, LS is right. Vodo was certainly powerful for his time, but based on evidence, Dooku would plant his ass in the ground without an iota of effort.


EDIT: As far as learning rates are considered, Anakin Skywalker's "learning rate" seems slower than what we've seen from Darth Bane, Exar Kun, and Vader's Secret Apprentice, yet his potential exceeds all the above by an unimaginable degree. Yoda was described as "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" with eight centuries of experience and knowledge under his belt and was forced to flee in a contest with a Sith Lord whose knowledge and experience accumulating in a total of six decades. Power =/= learning rate.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
In response to the learning rates Advent, I think Luke had one hell of an accelerated learning rate. He had virtually no real knowledge of the force or lightsaber combat during the movies, and he still managed to use both to his advantage. It may not be on the level of Kun or Bane, but that doesn't say much. Luke had nothing to work with until Palpatine was destroyed the first time. He became vastly more powerful during his brief training with the reborn Emperor.

I definitely agree. I forgot about Luke even though he played a part in the discussion, lol. Although, this just further supports my point.



At the time, I just typed "biggest football stadium" in Google and the Michigan Stadium was the first result. Admittedly, I didn't read the article or the excerpt besides what was bolded.

How much larger is the one in CA, though?



But it's not an attack one could actively use, it is more of a state that is achieved under circumstance.

@ Gideon:

I realize as much, but if you'll notice anything written below "Kun doesn't have an impressive resume anyways" had absolutely nothing to do with this fight. The only reason I listed his feats were to show Subjekt otherwise, my intentions weren't to prove Kun's superiority over Dooku.



He also had a considerably less knowledge base to work with and was a Jedi (who are less powerful, according to George Lucas). You'll notice that Kun isn't all-powerful prior to studying Sadow's notes either, but once he secured them, we all know what became of him.



What's your point? Yoda also had a potential that was clearly reached. I don't see how this disproves my theory.

Oh, all right then. I was just making sure that that wasn't your rationale to suggest that Exar Kun > Count Dooku.



A considerably inferior knowledge base to work with in what? Are we talking Obi-Wan Kenobi versus Naga Sadow in terms of knowledge or Naga Sadow versus Master Yoda and the entire Jedi Order in terms of knowledge? Furthermore, George Lucas says that the dark side is more powerful than the light side, not necessarily Sith > Jedi (or am I mistaken?). After all, Yoda demonstrated solid superiority over Count Dooku, who was an incredibly powerful Sith Lord.



Isn't it stated or implied that Yoda had the second highest midichlorian count in recorded history in The Phantom Menace and thus the second highest potential in the history of the Jedi Order?

Originally posted by Advent


I definitely agree. I forgot about Luke even though he played a part in the discussion, lol. Although, this just further supports my point.



At the time, I just typed "biggest football stadium" in Google and the Michigan Stadium was the first result. Admittedly, I didn't read the article or the excerpt besides what was bolded.

How much larger is the one in CA, though?

The one in CA had about 105,000 for an event. Also, the Penn St stadium is bigger than Michigan.




Fair enough, although when it is achieved, the opponent gets wtfpwned like no other.

Originally posted by Advent


The Jedi Academy Sourcebook:

"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun...(keep in mind that even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know of the Sith powers)." (Chapter Four: Echoes of the Sith, pg. 50)

It draws a clear distinction that what he had acquired from Sadow was exclusive to Nadd and himself.
'Exclusive to Nadd?' How is this possible, exactly? I'll grant you they died with him for that era, but they were certianly rediscovered. Especially given Nadd had nothing he didn't gain from progenitors that at the very least, Bane's order would obtain by Palpatine



Which, given that at the very least, Palpatine knows them backwards and forwards, would mean they didn't die with Kun



Palpatine explicitly says it's Sadow's 'knowledge.' That 'Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd were too free with.' This would account for those private notes, considering it's dubious that they were the only recording period

For this to have a point, you'd need to assume that the only sources known began and ended inside Kun's brain. Since we know, thanks to the things Sadow and Nadd learned from still existed, the information is rather faulty. Kun had nothing- not a thing- that he himself created. If it died with him then, it could be rediscovered later.



Bad comparison. Those superlasers can blow a planet apart. Kun's arm blasts have demonstrated not a quintillionth of that power

Err...we see it blasting three Massassi...that doesn't scream 'disintegrated,' it says 'fried.'

Now, let's see what will happen when introduced with a Force Shield or a being who can defend himself. Let's throw defense in there and all and stop assuming they're going to rip through everything and that tthey can last indefinitely

Perhaps you're confused: We know what happens if they connect. Your constant assertion that it doesn't seem to matter to some dubious reasoning of them being invulnerable has gotten old
And I'm getting tired of your insults. Cut it the **** out.



And? We've seen lightning turn a larger Leviathan to a charred heap and a Jedi defend himself from that. How exactly is killing a non-Force Sensitive any sort of pro in regards to fighting a Force Sensitive?
The blasts start out with...how much power? Certainly not much bigger than Kun's arm.

How much? Farfalla was able to throw up more than one barrier against Bane and not exhaust himself there

because Dooku is going to just be standing there doing nothing while Kun continues blast after blast of energy?



'Eclipse Kun's body?' You make it sound as if they're consuming the temple's walls. They're hardly bigger than he is.
And again: Can he keep this up indefinitely or can't he? Can the amulets be affected with the Force or can't they? We know the Force can destroy other Sith artifacts and weapons. Considering that not one Sith has ever resorted to amulet blasts at ANY point in time against a Force User, I'm really doubting they're somehow instant win usage in a Force fight.


They learn it faster so they're more powerful? So I assume Kun is more powerful than Palpatine or Bane based on this reasoning?



Renowned by who, exactly? Odan was respected for wisdom, not combat ability. This is the person who stood by uselessly, letting soldier after soldier die on Kirrek.


It's not like Quinlan Vos has demonstrated substantial ability in combat. Sorry, Advent, but suck it up. Besting Quinlan amounts to a bit more than you'd given him credit for.

The former still applies. We see them in combat in several Republic comics, after all.



My apologies, found a few more accurate sources:
The description of number of chairs is in the 'thousands,' according to other sources:
In contrast to the Galactic Senate Building that eventually replaced it, the Senate Hall was a smaller, more intimate debating chamber, designed in a far more ancient architectural style and constructed over thousands of years. Its interior resembled an oval stadium, and it was estimated that perhaps as many as 50,000 senators could attend discussions comfortably

Admitted. 50,000 Senators thereabouts then. Plus seen guards.

Of beings? The estimate for seating appears to be 50,000, plus guards. 'Hundreds of Thousands' would just beg a source.

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, all right then. I was just making sure that that wasn't your rationale to suggest that Exar Kun > Count Dooku.

Did you think that I forgot you still browsed these forums? I'm not stupid enough to post something like that with you on patrol, lol.



It's hard to state into words what I mean, but let me rephrase my point: Anakin's learning rate seems slower than Bane's and Kun's because he was never given any type of knowledge that would make him supremely powerful. As I pointed out, Kun was an extraordinary Jedi apprentice, but he was certainly not one of the most powerful Force users at that time. When he gains access to Sadow's virtual treasure vault, we see the leap in power is tremendous. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

If Anakin had gathered the same or similar knowledge, it stands to reason it would grant him the power his potential allowed. He was correct in saying that the Jedi hold him back, because they do. And despite that, he still managed to become one of the most powerful Jedi Knights in history in ten years.



Indeed, you are correct. However, the ways of the dark side provide more power and Anakin was a practitioner of the light side. Kun, Bane, and Starkiller all utilized the ways of the dark side and as Nick Gillard points out, Anakin became more powerful when he submitted to the dark side - which was what I was alluding to.



As far as Obi-Wan implies, yes. But the question still remains: how does this disprove my theory? The fight between Yoda and Sidious doesn't prove contrary that I can see.

Do me a favor please by expanding on what you meant initially.

It's the point of a Sith Spell. Even a BASIC freezing of one being doesn't require any further attention from you.
Unless you have ANY evidence that Kun's attention is required there, drop it.



Wait...they can't move and and all of a sudden he needs to direct their eyes when they're facing exactly where he wants them to anyways?

I would assume there is actual evidence-not your supposition- that they are watching Kun the entire time? They seem to be facing down to Ulic. That's it.
And it wears off after he leaves. And? usually one can decide to release someone from being frozen with the Force, or just leave it on its own







I encourage you to try the same.

Originally posted by Advent
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/260/odanteachesnomiuy9.th.jpg

"I myself became adept at such powers " - Odan's own dialogue seems to indicate otherwise.
And? Odan's seen combat in the thousand years since? So he became adept at doing something to nobody of any note or substance Am I supposed to be impressed?

Which is kind of showing my point. When it comes to a fight of an opponent of proficiency, Odan is worthless.

He tells Nomi about it once and she uses it later. There's no 'demonstration' on this. And when does he teach it to Vodo? It just says Vodo knows 'the technique described by Odan-Ur.' If there's evidence Vodo was ever trained by Odan, certainly I'll buy it. Otherwise?

Yes, and even neophyte Kyle Katarn can use it with no training or preparation whatsoever. Jacen can do it too, come to think of it. Tholme can severe and reconnect at will. So, Odan's shown himself on the level of an untrained Kyle Katarn. Color me REALLY impressed. 'Powerful' is a long way from being useful, particularly when your opponent is more powerful than you are



The list of 'powerful' Jedi is a long one. Considering Kyle Katarn with no training whatsoever in it is included in there is a tad amusing.
Even moreso how the only people it's performed on are people who tend to be incapable of fighting back onscreen and no-names off of it-I think you'll remember...most every Sith Lord of the Council was dead in Naga's war. Every Sith Lord DID end up dead. Is there anybody of any account
The one time it's tried on a known powerful and resisting foe...it's blocked. The one person who might even have tried to resist it was Jerec, given the Dark Forces Saga.

Millenia to perfect it? To what intent and purpose there? The Sith were gone. Odan devoted time to building and knowledge, not how to annihilate Dark Jedi. The issue happens to be resistance. Kun is more powerful than Odan as is and would have been resisting an attack. You think Odan would have had any more success if he tried that on Bane circa Rule of Two? Someone more powerful, actively resisting? It seems unlikely. Again, considering Odan's only known victories are above a tiny number of Sith of no account- given that the Sith were just bombed into practical extinction with no mercy with all their leaders and most powerful members dead...who exactly, was Odan to fight of any significant ability?



As does somehow arguing that Sever Force makes you a Force God. Let's view how useful Odan is:
His battle meditation only encourages enemy soldiers to fight harder. Ends the battle quicker, but suicidally crazed madmen will tend to do that. And I consider Memet's advice questionable given that he tends to hang out with a tyrannical dictator helping her suppress rebels.
He manages to set a new record for 'worthless' at the battle of Kirrek
He manages to defeat some Sith in battles to apparently no avail as most of the species is rendered extinct save a tiny handful with Naga when just about any Sith of power is already dead from Naga's purge of the Lords in the great Hyperspace War.
He fails to stop Exar Kun, already more powerful than he is.



And? I don't hear anyone claiming T'ra Saa or Ood Bnar Force Gods and they outstrip Odan in age by a fair amount.



And he wouldn't kill her, why? Some pissing contest? When he's there to kill her and is risking a potential interference in his fight with Ulic?

An enemy capable of interfering in any battle tends to be an issue. What would he do if she started throwing Sith Magic at his back when he's locked in a pure even fight? Or throws battle meditation Ulic's way? For all Kun knows, she's capable of it and there's no reason to leave her alive as a threat



Considering 'Random Fallanassi running around with Luke' creates illusions on a much larger scale and she's a bit hard pressed to use this magic with any ability against other Force Users...Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't she nearly killed by a freedom fighter with a knife?

I'm hard pressed to imagine Kun, Ulic, Nomi...hell, even Johun Othone under ANY threat by a guy diving at them with a knife. If there's a bit where she later reveals this as a Cunning Plan to Satal, please let me know.



When we're throwing out Kun's dueling prowess, seems relevant



Very well



This will prompt an eye roll.



You've tried these arguments in the past. Unlike Kun in the flesh, Kyp and Exar can attack from two places at once, force Luke to hold back, have the element of surprise and have plenty n Yavin to draw from if I, Jedi is an indication.
Or are you going to take the IKC route and claim that Kun is SO FAR ABOVE DE PALPATINE WOWZERS?

Do you see Kun wasting his time with any of this if he was able to blast Luke out of his body from the start? If Luke is holding back not to harm his Apprentice, it's going to limit his combat abilities somewhat. Do you doubt for a moment he could have killed Kyp with ease if he wanted?

If I had Dark Apprentice at hand, I'd find it. Do you have it?

When you are already hit, that tends to have an issue. Consider, say, Farfalla, who's able to throw up a force barrier to take lightning, is he going to be able to defend himself if he's already being fried?
In a two pronged attack, naturally Luke is going to have a bit of trouble. Naturally, when he's already being blasted, he's not going to be able to defend himself. Kind of an analogue to what you were saying earlier. All the defenses in the world won't help you if it's too late.



It also says he was trying very hard not to harm Kyp. You usually don't prepare for long dead Sith Spirits blind siding you.m
It also doesn't help when Luke was trying to find a defense, Kyp and Kun were hititng him from both sides.
Do you honestly think Kun could've done this alone from a frontal assault? Do you REALLY see this happening the same way in the flesh?


power to defend against the attack, it speaks volumes for Kun's powers and his Sith abilities.
It speaks for Kun's tactical abilities. Considering it's highly unlikely Palpatine or Yoda would ever have bothered to teach him about this technique. And if Palpatine were to, say, strike Yoda full on with intent to kill and kept it on, do you see Yoda being able to defend himself?
Or are you trying to say Kun is this far above Luke in the flesh?
Hell, according to Star Wars Galaxies, Kun wasn't even capable of defeating a group of Spacers by himself along with his cult.


Much stronger"? That's a blatant lie:

Don't even go there. Yes, he was. Far more than what he's reduced to when Luke drove him off in his sleep. Yes, a 'reserve to last.' And it llets him subvert Kyp and double team Luke. Where exactly does it state it gives him only a little now?





You know, you continuously throw out your old posts. You refuse, for some reason to provide any answer I give to them. How about you bother to provide the whole thing?


The 'secondary fallible' account? cute how that comes in to play all of a sudden. Last I checked, I, Jedi confirms that Kun did leave quite a bit of power for himself, even for the eventuality he was gone. It took the destruction of his statue to purge the Nexus for good

Err...wasn't it the Massassi life force that did that He preserved his spirit in the temple, but the Massassi energy was what freed him from his body? At least you admit here that Kun wasn't strong enough to try all that on Luke directly

It's pretty obvious: Because he trapped himself and bound himself to the Temples and the Nexus.

Presumably because he uses that VERY NEXUS when he imprisons Luke?

Because one cannot just CREATE something from nothing? It's the same exact thing with Nadd and Kunn: Nadd needed Kun to provide him a new body. PResumably Kun would need the others for the same. One needs energy to enter in to flesh, though.

I'll give a nice look later. But I distinctly recall JJK mentioning the Golden Globe was used by Kun to draw power from. And I, Jedi noting that he used the leftover Dark Power there in eventuality. And given his reawakening by the Cult, that he'd take preparations isn't far fetched.



Against apprentices who succumb to the Dark Side, giving you exactly what you need to kill them? Gantoris threw himself at Kun at the end. Yes, it's impressive. Godly? No.



Gethzerion ALONE is able to do this to an entire regiment of Imperials in The Courtship of Princess Leia. I don't really see an above average Nightsister being more powerful than a Sith Lord, even a Sith Lord's spirit.



One would think a Jedi apprentice would be unable to counter a Force Choke on twelve people at once


Last I checked, hyperbolic 'The ground shook when he walked' praise of one's former Master is a bit different from a biographical account of 'I was on Yavin 4 when things went down.'.

Originally posted by Advent
Jedi Vs. Sith is an in-universe narrative, which makes it subject to fallibility. That fact notwithstanding, I've reviewed the source and it states that it the imaginary holocron was "possibly" left by the Exiles, not "confirmed". Quit twisting quotes around.
Then stop throwing out Kun's awesomeness in creating the DBL and the form therein when it's suddenly very possible he had nothing to do with inventing it. Considering the timeframe, the Exiles' instruction seems more likely

Naga Sadow could easily have brought it on his ship. I sincerely doubt there was only one Sith Holocron in the entire fleet, after all.



If the weapon was there, one would assume they'd include instructions on fighting with it as well. The Telos Holocron contained weapon and combat information, after all.
Regardless, if Kun followed the instructions, he is not the inventor of form or saber.



Don't forget Nadd himself left his knowledge, which Bane'd have incorporated. Or that Sadow's own information would exist in other forms. The teachings could only die with Kun if every past Sith record was destroyed



Kun highly underestimated Vodo in the first fighting. When he caught Vodo off guard, he defeated him indeed. And he was a revered Jedi Master. In the SW mythos, those are a dime a dozen. He was able to use the wall of light technique, and imbue his walking stick...as I pointed out earlier, Kyle Katarn and Vergere are capable of the former, Corran Horn can imbue his skin to resist energy like the Saber and if memory serves, I believe Torr Snappit was able to empower his stick similarly in the Ruusan campaign.
Vodo's a powerful Jedi, sure. But to the degree that defeating him makes one godly?


Care to stop being a total *****? Or should I just stop acting like you deserve any courtesy?



See the above.