Russia v Georgia

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Bicnarok
Whats this all about then?

Cool the way they used the Olympics opening as a kind of smoke screen.

I noticed various oil pipelines and some oil port was bombed, looks like the price of fuels going to go up again then.

could this bring us back to a cold war sort of scenario?
After all the USA supports Georgia.

Grand_Moff_Gav
This could be, a laugh.

inimalist
They had a war against each other a few years ago as Georgia is beginning to open up its market to the west and may be involved in military ties with America (America is putting more missile bases in E Europe right now).

During the war, which lasted hours, the Russian hackers (thought to have government ties) basically shut down the entire state of Georgia. People couldn't bank, shop, anything. Stuff that required a computer or internet was totally down. Georgian hackers eventually thwarted the Russians, but never the less, very interesting situation.

I don't know anything about recent bombings?

Bicnarok
A hacking war, interesting.

This one could be a lot bloody by the looks of it. Russian appears to be wanting to put down new democratic countries growing in their area.

According to CNN. "Georgian officials said Russia has mobilized its Black Sea fleet off the coast of Abkhazia, another breakaway Georgian province."

inimalist
The Russian state took a fairly large loss of face internationally after the cold war. They almost are referred to as a "former power".

If anything else, it is important to remember that Russia wants that international fear and respect back. I'm very interested in this situation and in other Eastern European states, although I can't imagine the Russian gvt doing anything that can be directly traced back to them. For all of their posturing, Russia still has a lot of internal problems. Not to say they wont strike anyone, more saying they are that much more unpredictable.

inimalist
Aug 8th
GEeYaxhRkSE&NR

Aug 9th
VPUZpo2T3uI

shit...

EDIT: actually, lots of stuff on youtube, even stuff from russian state news smile

RocasAtoll
This wasn't just a hacker war.

Russian forces are locked in fierce clashes with Georgia inside its breakaway South Ossetia region, reports say, amid fears of all-out war.

Moscow sent armoured units across the border after Georgia moved against Russian-backed separatists.

Russia says 12 of its soldiers are dead, and separatists estimate that 1,400 civilians have died.

Georgia accuses Russia of waging war, and says it has suffered heavy losses in bombing raids, which Russia denies.

Russian tanks have reportedly reached the northern suburbs of the regional capital, Tskhinvali, and there were conflicting claims about who was in control of the city.

"Now our peacekeepers are waging a fierce battle with regular forces from the Georgian army in the southern region of Tskhinvali," a Russian military official was quoted as saying by Moscow-based news agency, Interfax.

After days of exchanging heavy fire with the separatists, Georgian forces moved on Thursday night to regain control of the region, which has had de facto independence since a war against Georgia that ended in 1992.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said Russia was at war with his country.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7550354.stm

The pipelines were destroyed primarily by Kurdish rebels in Turkey, not by the issues in Georgia.

inimalist
my bad, it was Estonia, not Georgia (another former russian state) which was crippled by Russian hackers

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2208059/first-hacker-convicted-estonia

though:

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2222166/hackers-georgia

July 22, 2008: "A distributed denial-of-service attack brought down a government website in Georgia this weekend.

The official site of Georgia's president, Mikheil Saakashvili, was taken down by the attackers on Saturday and Sunday, according to researchers.

The attacks were first recorded in the early hours of Saturday morning and continued into Sunday.

While researchers could not pinpoint the exact source of the attacks, early evidence points to sources within neighbouring Russia."

lil bitchiness
What the hell is this shit?!

Has western propaganda machine started working already! Oh those big bad genocidal Russians!! Sheesh!

Georgia (Gruzia) Attacked South Ossetia (which is by the way rightfuly Russian and has been so until communist revlution. Stalin completed the job by giving South Ossetia to Georgia, since he himself was Georgian) not Russia attacked Georgia.

Georgia wanted into NATO so bad because it had planned to attack South Ossetia for a long while and Saakashvili thought he can hide behind his NATO masters and 'scare' Russia.
This is a stuid move by Saakashvili (who by the way is bordering dictator there, up NATO's ass so much only his shoe laces are visible)

NATO summit in Bucharest in March, Germany and France denied stubbornly to accept Georgia as a NATO member. USA was pressuring hard, but simply they denied, because they KNEW what Georgia has been planning for ages.

It is audacity to even suggest that in this whole mess Russia is being ''agressive'' since Georgians took the privilage to attack South Ossetia, destroy part of it and kill civilians.

Utrigita
What I don't quiet get is: Are Ossetian part of Georgia ore part of the Russia?

If it is are a part of Georgia then Russia can pull there fingers back, and that shouldn't have happened five minuts ago.

AngryManatee
Yeah I'm rooting for Russia in this one. Georgia asked for it.

shiv
Im with Russia.

Interesting fact: In The disputed territory The majority of citizens are Russian.

South Ossetians are divided in opinion. a significant number like things and don't want anything to change. A significant number want the Territory to become a Republic

Georgia wants to expand its borders to swallow the territory

Russia wants the Citizens in the Territory to have the opportunity to Make the Descision on their own.

If Russia wanted to bitchslap Georgia it could But it's chosen not to.
The Georgians really should pick their battles Nato is not going to come to their aid

Russia has a stronger hand. it has more to offer to people living in that part of the world than Georgia.

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Has western propaganda machine started working already! Oh those big bad genocidal Russians!! Sheesh!


1) I must have missed anyone who had that sentiment in the thread, why so sensitive?

2) of the 5 linked media reports, 2 are not about the issue and of the 3 that are, 2 are from the middle east, making them not western news agencies.

what, exactly, is it that you are talking about?

and thanks for the info smile

EDIT: Just to say, I'm with the citizens of South Ossetia, and personally am fairly sure there are better ways to solve disputes like this than through military power. Its hard to see a good solution if both sides are authoritarians using military force. Boo Russia and Georgia.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by inimalist
1) I must have missed anyone who had that sentiment in the thread, why so sensitive?


If you haven't noticed, she loves Russia.

--

I first heard this yesterday morning when I was groggy, and for a splitsecond I actually thought Russia invaded The South.

inimalist
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I first heard this yesterday morning when I was groggy, and for a splitsecond I actually thought Russia invaded The South.

laughing laughing

they can have it wink

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What the hell is this shit?!

Has western propaganda machine started working already! Oh those big bad genocidal Russians!! Sheesh!

Georgia (Gruzia) Attacked South Ossetia (which is by the way rightfuly Russian and has been so until communist revlution. Stalin completed the job by giving South Ossetia to Georgia, since he himself was Georgian) not Russia attacked Georgia.

Georgia wanted into NATO so bad because it had planned to attack South Ossetia for a long while and Saakashvili thought he can hide behind his NATO masters and 'scare' Russia.
This is a stuid move by Saakashvili (who by the way is bordering dictator there, up NATO's ass so much only his shoe laces are visible)

NATO summit in Bucharest in March, Germany and France denied stubbornly to accept Georgia as a NATO member. USA was pressuring hard, but simply they denied, because they KNEW what Georgia has been planning for ages.

It is audacity to even suggest that in this whole mess Russia is being ''agressive'' since Georgians took the privilage to attack South Ossetia, destroy part of it and kill civilians.

I'm sorry, but which link blamed it on Russia?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
I'm sorry, but which link blamed it on Russia?

I'm sorry, you seem to not have read any of your 'news', as of late, have you.
Each source citing Russia as an agressor. Originally posted by inimalist
1) I must have missed anyone who had that sentiment in the thread, why so sensitive?

2) of the 5 linked media reports, 2 are not about the issue and of the 3 that are, 2 are from the middle east, making them not western news agencies.

what, exactly, is it that you are talking about?

and thanks for the info smile

EDIT: Just to say, I'm with the citizens of South Ossetia, and personally am fairly sure there are better ways to solve disputes like this than through military power. Its hard to see a good solution if both sides are authoritarians using military force. Boo Russia and Georgia.
It wasn't directed at you personally or anyone else, but the news which are circulating.

Dictatorial lying news agencies spoon feeding bullshit.
Frankly, I am yet to read news where Russians are not a psychoathic civilian bombers.

This issue is so complex and it is coninuously being simplified in the news.

Here come random people from random places giving their views on the situation -

"They are killing civilians, women and children, with heavy artillery and rockets," Sarmat Laliyev, 28, told AP.

Georgia asks for help from America, as they are allies. USA would be wise to stay out of Russia's way and play this diplomatically for once.

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness

This issue is so complex and it is coninuously being simplified in the news.


indeed, they tend to do that, I can understand your frustration, I get like that whenever I read stuff about the middle east

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

Dictatorial lying news agencies spoon feeding bullshit.


You should watch Al Jazeera wink

and not to argue, but couldn't the same be said of any Russian news agency?

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I'm sorry, you seem to not have read any of your 'news', as of late, have you.
Each source citing Russia as an agressor.
With the one I gave, it doesn't identify Russia as the aggressor, so I don't know what you're on about.

inimalist
hey Lil:

I'm just reading up on some of this stuff. It seems like South Ossetia has been fighting for independence ever since Georgia broke off from the USSR, and according to the ever trustworthy Wiki, it goes back even to the early 20s.

What do you think the Russian angle is here? are they really supporting an independence movement or are they looking to consolidate power? It seems like such a small victory for them to win if all they want is power over the city, as they pretty much dominate the region anyways, but on the other hand, and this could be my western bias, Russia doesn't remind me of a pro-democratic independence supporting group, I mean, didn't they oppose the sovereignty of Kosovo?

Is this like the American funding of groups during the Red scare do you think, where they are willing to get into bed with anyone who hates the Americans like the Americans supported anti-democratic movements in latin America?

Bardock42
Russia 10/10

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What the hell is this shit?!

Has western propaganda machine started working already! Oh those big bad genocidal Russians!! Sheesh!

Georgia (Gruzia) Attacked South Ossetia (which is by the way rightfuly Russian and has been so until communist revlution. Stalin completed the job by giving South Ossetia to Georgia, since he himself was Georgian) not Russia attacked Georgia.

Georgia wanted into NATO so bad because it had planned to attack South Ossetia for a long while and Saakashvili thought he can hide behind his NATO masters and 'scare' Russia.
This is a stuid move by Saakashvili (who by the way is bordering dictator there, up NATO's ass so much only his shoe laces are visible)

NATO summit in Bucharest in March, Germany and France denied stubbornly to accept Georgia as a NATO member. USA was pressuring hard, but simply they denied, because they KNEW what Georgia has been planning for ages.

It is audacity to even suggest that in this whole mess Russia is being ''agressive'' since Georgians took the privilage to attack South Ossetia, destroy part of it and kill civilians.

I agree, its interesting how quickly the Western Media has retracted to "The Great Enemy" propaganda of the Cold War.

Kinneary
I'll be honest, I didn't know very much (ie, nothing at all) about this situation until the war broke out. However, I DO know that Russia has killed about 2,000 civilians in the past few days. What, exactly, is going on? Are the Russians invading Georgian territory, or is Georgia simply claiming the city as their own, and Russia is disputing the claim? How long has the dispute waged before the recent military intervention?

And how are the 2,000 civilian deaths justified? It seems to me to be almost intended.

RocasAtoll
Georgia tried to take a region owned by Russian-backed separatists, Russia came through and pushed the Georgians out. Now Georgia is trying to hide behind the US.
And the dispute has been around pretty much since the USSR fell.

leonheartmm
most of the deaths have been reported in civilian complexes far from the border in the middle of georgia, and explicity bombing civilian infrastructure has been seen on televesion, on air the georgian president publically stated that he was ready for unconditional ceasefire on his part. this is more like a genocide to keep the former states under russia's influence and tell em whose boss. america, the great self proclaimed protector of liberty yet again wont take any action worthy of mentioning as it isnt convenient to americans to go up against russia and renew the cold war.

Dr. Leg Kick
Originally posted by leonheartmm
america, the great self proclaimed protector of liberty yet again wont take any action worthy of mentioning as it isnt convenient to americans to go up against russia and renew the cold war.

good post. alot of people won't acknowledge this.

leonheartmm
^its a thin line between sincerity and sarcasm isnt it, or maybe im just growing cenile.

Dr. Leg Kick
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^its a thin line between sincerity and sarcasm isnt it, or maybe im just growing cenile. i thought it was sarcasm no expression

Bardock42
Originally posted by Dr. Leg Kick
good post. alot of people won't acknowledge this.
Yeah, because World War 3 is really what the world needs right now.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Dr. Leg Kick
i thought it was sarcasm no expression

in that case, why isnt the only country with the ability to take some action against this disaster not doing anything{discounting china cause theyd never take a stand against russia on ideology alone}

Utrigita
Allow me to get this right:

Georgia attacks South Ossetia, which is a part of it because they want Independence? Russia then steps in to protect the South Ossetia while they themselves have been having serious problem in Chechnya... If South Ossetia is a part of Georgia and Russia steps in then I find it a bit double morale from the Russian part. But again only if South Ossetia is a part of Georgia, but then you can also say that it is Russia that chooses to escalate the conflict but....

leonheartmm
riddle me this, is georgia stupid enough to initiate a war with RUSSIA in its current state?!?!?!?!?!

Utrigita
No they isn't, hence they asked for ceasefire.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_south_ossetia

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by inimalist
indeed, they tend to do that, I can understand your frustration, I get like that whenever I read stuff about the middle east



You should watch Al Jazeera wink

and not to argue, but couldn't the same be said of any Russian news agency?

No. Russian agencies have no interest in shit smearing other countries, like US does.
US s unfortunately involved in number of conflicts around the world, and any news which would undermine their liberator status is changed or simly ignored.

Originally posted by inimalist
hey Lil:

I'm just reading up on some of this stuff. It seems like South Ossetia has been fighting for independence ever since Georgia broke off from the USSR, and according to the ever trustworthy Wiki, it goes back even to the early 20s.

What do you think the Russian angle is here? are they really supporting an independence movement or are they looking to consolidate power? It seems like such a small victory for them to win if all they want is power over the city, as they pretty much dominate the region anyways, but on the other hand, and this could be my western bias, Russia doesn't remind me of a pro-democratic independence supporting group, I mean, didn't they oppose the sovereignty of Kosovo?

Is this like the American funding of groups during the Red scare do you think, where they are willing to get into bed with anyone who hates the Americans like the Americans supported anti-democratic movements in latin America?

North Ossetia is in Russia, and South Ossetia in Georgia. South Ossetia never truly belonged to Georgia, but was given to Geogria after communist revolution.
South Ossetia wants to join up with mother Russia, rather than have its independence. They use Russian money and Russian passports as well. They consider themsleves Russian
(Just like Ukrainians are actually Russians, and speak the same language, but whatever...not going to go into that discussion)

Stalin was of course sympathetic to Georgians, he himself coming from the region, and chunk of Ossetia was given to Georgia (now known as South Ossetia).

I think Russians have a right view on this. Georgia invaded South Ossetia which they KNEW would provoke Russia.

What Georgians didn't count on is that Russia would respond, since West has been slapping Russia around the face way too many times since the end of Cold War, and particulary with inviting former USSR members into NATO.
That is my view. Others may disagree, however I just don't think its fair to create an enemy of Russia without acknowledging the full story and history.

I read some UK news as well - same story - Russia 'pounds' Georgia and kills 12346532 billion poeple.

TRH
American media is Jumping all over Russia when they don't know the situation nor the background.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Utrigita
Allow me to get this right:

Georgia attacks South Ossetia, which is a part of it because they want Independence? Russia then steps in to protect the South Ossetia while they themselves have been having serious problem in Chechnya... If South Ossetia is a part of Georgia and Russia steps in then I find it a bit double morale from the Russian part. But again only if South Ossetia is a part of Georgia, but then you can also say that it is Russia that chooses to escalate the conflict but....

Russia is protecting its citizens who are located in Georgia.

America has no reason to interfere- not that they really have the mandate too. (Who were they protecting when they invaded Iraq?)

The media never does anything but critizse the Russian Federation- no matter what they do.

Personally, I'd much rather have Putin than Brown.

Georgia broke a ceasefire with South Ossetia but did not expect the Russian retaliation- thus it is Georgia's fault.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
No. Russian agencies have no interest in shit smearing other countries, like US does.

Luckily it's supporters do, eh?

inimalist
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Russia is protecting its citizens who are located in Georgia.

America has no reason to interfere- not that they really have the mandate too. (Who were they protecting when they invaded Iraq?)

The media never does anything but critizse the Russian Federation- no matter what they do.

Personally, I'd much rather have Putin than Brown.

Georgia broke a ceasefire with South Ossetia but did not expect the Russian retaliation- thus it is Georgia's fault.

However, the attacking of cities like Gori by Russian forces seems to show a fairly aggressive plan of action by the bear.

http://static.lonelyplanet.com/worldguide/maps/wg-georgia-985-400x300.gif

AngryManatee
Well maybe Georgia will catch up to Russia in some other catagory of the olympics.

inimalist
znlhvmUAu9Y

LDs2Bzsnw_0

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by inimalist
However, the attacking of cities like Gori by Russian forces seems to show a fairly aggressive plan of action by the bear.

http://static.lonelyplanet.com/worldguide/maps/wg-georgia-985-400x300.gif

Total War will resolve the conflict much faster than a limited assault on the Ossetia front.

inimalist
Now, is that what Jesus would say?

and less cynically, sure, as would nuclear winter and total human genocide.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by inimalist
Now, is that what Jesus would say?

and less cynically, sure, as would nuclear winter and total human genocide.

Jesus wouldn't have invaded in the first place.

Yes it would, however, this isn't a world war, this is a simple conflict.

If you were at war, would you rather end it quickly or allow it to run on for months or even years?

Bardock42
Yes, yes, lets not question Russia, evil Western propaganda is just trying to paint them as bad. There's nothing wrong in Russia at all, it's the pinnacle of humanity and civilized thought.

jaden101
Originally posted by Bicnarok

This one could be a lot bloody by the looks of it. Russian appears to be wanting to put down new democratic countries growing in their area.



i've heard some total rubbish in my time but this is right up there with the best in terms of bullshit...

as other people have stated...this is Georgia's doing...if they plan on attacking Ossetia then they can reap what they sow...and the Russians dont ponce about...they'll just blast the living shit out of Georgia like they did with Chechnya

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, yes, lets not question Russia, evil Western propaganda is just trying to paint them as bad. There's nothing wrong in Russia at all, it's the pinnacle of humanity and civilized thought.

Yes, well, thank god noone here is saying that...

leonheartmm
western propaganda doesnt discredit the fact that russia has increasingly grown more aggressive over the past years and has a long record of wagin wars on civilians and using the worst genocide and ethnic cleansing methods against states which have broken away. not to mention using force against its own civilians, activists, etc has any1 forgotten the school takeover by terrorists and russian soldiers killing most of their own people indiscriminately to eliminate the terrorists???? georgia is a disaster, it didnt truly start the war, it isnt that stupid, and russia is targetting civilians, agreat number.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by leonheartmm
western propaganda doesnt discredit the fact that russia has increasingly grown more aggressive over the past years and has a long record of wagin wars on civilians and using the worst genocide and ethnic cleansing methods against states which have broken away. not to mention using force against its own civilians, activists, etc has any1 forgotten the school takeover by terrorists and russian soldiers killing most of their own people indiscriminately to eliminate the terrorists???? georgia is a disaster, it didnt truly start the war, it isnt that stupid, and russia is targetting civilians, agreat number.

How ironic, the Western World isolates Russia, pushes it out of International Society, demonizes it but still thinks it should play by our rules.

How can we tell Russia how it should behave?

Iraq and Afghanistan totally out of everyone's mind?

leonheartmm
^no 1 is supporting america here, but to say that russia is any better is foolish. they just have different ways of goind about spreading destruction and imposing their self righteous sadistic egoes. it isnt that russia shud play by WESTERN rules, its that every1 shud play by HUMANITARIAN rules.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Yes, well, thank god noone here is saying that... Parts of it are said by some people (including you). Obviously it was exaggerated. Good job spotting it. Have a cookie.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Russia is protecting its citizens who are located in Georgia.

America has no reason to interfere- not that they really have the mandate too. (Who were they protecting when they invaded Iraq?)

The media never does anything but critizse the Russian Federation- no matter what they do.

Personally, I'd much rather have Putin than Brown.

Georgia broke a ceasefire with South Ossetia but did not expect the Russian retaliation- thus it is Georgia's fault.

Citizens that are located in another country thus violating Georgia, there are plenty of landes where there are a minority ore majority that are being surpressed, but just because it's russians then they choose to act and just because it's Russia none is doing anything about it.

In some way the US will have the mandate to interfere, I believe Georgia was in some way in a alliance with NATO though not a member the closest you can get to it. What keeps the US from stepping in is from my point of view that they doesn't want to further distance themselves from the russians.

Really? Well at least some are critizing the Russian goverment, because it isn't there socalled "independent media" in russia that are doing it.

???

Again is South Ossetia part of Georgia: Yes ore No.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Bardock42
Parts of it are said by some people (including you). Obviously it was exaggerated. Good job spotting it. Have a cookie.
All of it has been said by one person, including the exaggeration.

Originally posted by Utrigita

Again is South Ossetia part of Georgia: Yes ore No.
No. South Ossetia has been considered seperate since 1992, after Georgia stopped trying to govern it directly.



Aug. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Georgia withdrew its troops from the separatist region of South Ossetia after four days of fighting with Russian and Ossetian forces as armed conflict heated up in a second region, Abkhazia.

Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said Georgia is pulling its troops out of South Ossetia after Georgian casualties rose ``into the hundreds.'' Russian officials confirmed the withdrawal and put the South Ossetian death toll at more than 2,000, many of them Russian citizens. Most residents of South Ossetia hold Russian passports.

In Abkhazia, President Sergei Bagapsh gave Georgia a deadline for removing its troops from the upper Kodori Gorge, a part of the region controlled by Georgia, as Abkhaz warplanes and artillery pounded Georgian positions for a second day, according to a statement on the president's Web site. Bagapsh said Abkhazia is acting ``independently,'' without Russian help. Utiashvili said Russian paratroopers and infantry are deployed in Abkhazia, and that fighting began earlier today.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said today that Georgia's actions ``can't be described as anything other than genocide.'' Heavy fighting began on Aug. 7 in South Ossetia, which broke from Georgia in a war in the early 1990s. Russia sent troops and tanks into the disputed region the next day in what it said was a response to Georgia's assault on Russian citizens and peacekeeping forces.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=apjn7JAm9ZMU&refer=home

Genocide is a little over the top.

Utrigita
Ahh okay thanks RocasAtoll, then the Georgians are the first big villians, then secondly the Russians because they choosed to escalete the conflict, but the prize for be the main villian in the first round goes to Georgia in my opinion.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Utrigita
Ahh okay thanks RocasAtoll, then the Georgians are the first big villians, then secondly the Russians because they choosed to escalete the conflict, but the prize for be the main villian in the first round goes to Georgia in my opinion.

Actually, the Georgians choose to escalate the conflict by breaking the ceasefire.

If there were 1000 American's living in Mexico and the Mexican Government attacked them, the US would intervene. All countries should be ready to defend its' citizens no matter where they are.

Bardock42
I agree that the Georgians are in the wrong, but that ridiculous attack on "the west" we had earlier in this thread is idiotic and low.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Actually, the Georgians choose to escalate the conflict by breaking the ceasefire.

If there were 1000 American's living in Mexico and the Mexican Government attacked them, the US would intervene. All countries should be ready to defend its' citizens no matter where they are.

huh? There has been no ceasefire between Georgia and Russia even though Georgia has asked for it.

So it's okay for China to keep control over Tibet because else according to them the Chine people living in Tibet would be attacked?

Schecter
why do all world events discussions have to degenerate into yet more u.s. bashing?

god i hope putin doesnt suffer from an ingrown toenail because then comes a new thread and more 'evil stupid propagandist american empire' discussion.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Schecter
why do all world events discussions have to degenerate into yet more u.s. bashing?

Because USA took the librety of sticking its greasy fingers in pretty much all the rest of the world's business.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Because USA took the librety of sticking its greasy fingers in pretty much all the rest of the world's business.

Yeah, yeah, whine, whine, your precious Russia still made 10 thousands of people flee from their homes. Striking air attacks on civilian targets, etc.

The USA really doesn't need to be included in your rants now. Lets rather talk about how Georgia and Russia are fascist bastards, kay?

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Utrigita
huh? There has been no ceasefire between Georgia and Russia even though Georgia has asked for it.

So it's okay for China to keep control over Tibet because else according to them the Chine people living in Tibet would be attacked?

They had a Ceasefire with South Ossetia and then broke it. Yet, now they are asking for one with Russia?

I think they should be taught a lesson for their illegal assualt on the Ossetian republic.

I don't recall the Chinese Citizens of Tibet being attacked by Tibetian forces...

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
If there were 1000 American's living in Mexico and the Mexican Government attacked them, the US would intervene. All countries should be ready to defend its' citizens no matter where they are.

There are thousands of Americans living in Mexico; they're mostly retired rich white people who live in beachfront houses. If the Mexican govt was that stupid, the border we share would become a minefield between electric razorwire and Alien style sentryguns.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
They had a Ceasefire with South Ossetia and then broke it. Yet, now they are asking for one with Russia?

I think they should be taught a lesson for their illegal assualt on the Ossetian republic.

I don't recall the Chinese Citizens of Tibet being attacked by Tibetian forces...
Just listening to Russia Today. 100 kilometar long column of Russian tanks entered South Ossetia.

Just to add to what you said about ceasfir, Saakashvili called for ceasfire (which he broke to begin with) only after Russians pushed all his forces out of Tskhinvali.

This attack on Russia's soverginity, Russian citizens will cost Saakashvili dearly.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by lil bitchiness

Just to add to what you said about ceasfir, Saakashvili called for ceasfire (which he broke to begin with) only after Russians pushed all his forces out of Tskhinvali.

This attack on Russia's soverginity, Russian citizens will cost Saakashvili dearly.
What do you expect? He got his ass kicked.

How is it going to cost him? Are Russia going to play puppet master and create their own regime?
And how much do you think Russia should pay for civilian bombing attacks on Georgia?

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
What do you expect? He got his ass kicked.

How is it going to cost him? Are Russia going to play puppet master and create their own regime?
And how much do you think Russia should pay for civilian bombing attacks on Georgia?

You know what they say "Inter arma enim silent leges".

Grand_Moff_Gav
McCain has called for Putin to halt the "totally, absolutely unacceptable."

"I would be very direct with President Putin that these actions will have consequences long term, in terms of our relationship with Russia, and it is in violation of the norms of international conduct,"

"Violation of the norms of international conduct,"

Russia defends its citizens and it is breaking the "norms of international conduct"...

Bardock42
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
McCain has called for Putin to halt the "totally, absolutely unacceptable."

"I would be very direct with President Putin that these actions will have consequences long term, in terms of our relationship with Russia, and it is in violation of the norms of international conduct,"

"Violation of the norms of international conduct,"

Russia defends its citizens and it is breaking the "norms of international conduct"...

It's doing it in an extreme fashion, endangering many more civilians (though not their citizens)

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Bardock42
It's doing it in an extreme fashion, endangering many more civilians (though not their citizens)

Then maybe, their government shouldn't have thought it could bully a small breakaway people without repercussions.

As for the ceasefire, Russia just sunk a missle boat which entered Russian waters (part of a fleet of 4)

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
McCain has called for Putin to halt the "totally, absolutely unacceptable."

"I would be very direct with President Putin that these actions will have consequences long term, in terms of our relationship with Russia, and it is in violation of the norms of international conduct,"

"Violation of the norms of international conduct,"

Russia defends its citizens and it is breaking the "norms of international conduct"...

Double standards, yet again.

When Bush administration bombed Afghanistan and Iraq back to the stone age, then it was 'humanitarian intervention', it was 'right', they were looking for Bin Laden who murdered 3 000 Americans and Saddam Hussain whos resonsible for killing 11 billion babies and feeding them to Iraqi population while manufacturing weapons of mass distruction.

Saakashvili is a dictator in Georgia. He planned and organized murder of those 2 000 South Ossetian civilians. That is a direct attack on Russia and provocation.
Of course Russia will respond! Saakashvili waged war on Russia, and now hes sitting in shit which he made, and dragging the Georgian population down with him.

Irresponsible dictatorial puppet! Thats all Saakashvili is.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Double standards, yet again.

When Bush administration bombed Afghanistan and Iraq back to the stone age, then it was 'humanitarian intervention', it was 'right', they were looking for Bin Laden who murdered 3 000 Americans and Saddam Hussain whos resonsible for killing 11 billion babies and feeding them to Iraqi population while manufacturing weapons of mass distruction.

Saakashvili is a dictator in Georgia. He planned and organized murder of those 2 000 South Ossetian civilians. That is a direct attack on Russia and provocation.
Of course Russia will respond! Saakashvili waged war on Russia, and now hes sitting in shit which he made, and dragging the Georgian population down with him.

Irresponsible dictatorial puppet! Thats all Saakashvili is.

Yeah, it is a double standard.

On their part as well as YOURS.

At least be consistent with your lunacy.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, it is a double standard.

On their part as well as YOURS.

At least be consistent with your lunacy.

Do you actually have anything to say or do you just label everyone who doesn't agree with you as an idiot?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, it is a double standard.

On their part as well as YOURS.

At least be consistent with your lunacy.

Russia does not claim 'humanitarian interviention', they claim war, therefore no double standards.

Now calm down, and go eat some cake or something.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Russia does not claim 'humanitarian interviention', they claim war, therefore no double standards.

Now calm down, and go eat some cake or something.

You and Grand Moff claim they do it solely to protect the people in the region.

So maybe you should stop a bit with your weird accusations and propaganda and go save some money or something.

shiv
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
calm down, and go eat a cake or something.

leonheartmm
eat some cake? why is it that uptight victorian/british customs are always thougth of as a polite but firm diss?? just a lil funny. go have some tea, go have some cake, {ud never say go have some coffy now wud u bitchiness stick out tongue}

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Bardock42
You and Grand Moff claim they do it solely to protect the people in the region.

So maybe you should stop a bit with your weird accusations and propaganda and go save some money or something.

What is the other reason then?

Even the BBC is saying it appears that the Russian Federation is making an impromptu attack, they were not planning it.

Russia will accept a ceasefire when the invading Georgian forces withdraw from occupied territory- its simple.

chithappens
I think what Bardock is getting at is that military action only occurs when incentive comes into play.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by chithappens
I think what Bardock is getting at is that military action only occurs when incentive comes into play.

And incentive is that Georgians act of agression was a direct aggression against Russia's sovereignty, Russian citizens and Russian peacekeepers. And this is offical statement from Rogozin.


The fighting has spread to Abkhazia as well.

leonheartmm
jamil serbia jamal baladi. what does that mean bitchiness?{ive been wondering}

anyhows, russia IS using the pretext of peacekeaping efforts, that tells u a bit about its intentions.

inimalist
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Jesus wouldn't have invaded in the first place.

thats a dodge though, isn't it?

like, i mean, President Jesus of Russia has just been informed by his defense advisor that Odessia has been attacked by Georgian aggressors, is his response really "make those ****ers pay"?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Yes it would, however, this isn't a world war, this is a simple conflict.

but if the desire is quickest victory, then even you must believe the Russians are acting with restraint.

They could turn Georgia into Chernobyl part 2 and there would never be conflict between Georgian authorities and Odessia ever again, quick, easy, victory.

However, obviously you don't believe that and I feel you should realize that it is rather like putting your foot in your mouth to defend the targeting of civilian cites by Russian forces.

Sometimes the easiest thing isn't the right thing wink

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
If you were at war, would you rather end it quickly or allow it to run on for months or even years?

I would do everything I could to end the conflict with the lowest loss of lives. A situation that devolves to war is lost in the first place.

Schecter
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Because USA took the librety of sticking its greasy fingers in pretty much all the rest of the world's business.

if you're going to blame the u.s. for this war, then the least you could do is specify. just seems to me that even when indirectly involved, you and others seem to place u.s. bashing far above the actual topic at hand in terms of priority for discussion.

many times scrutiny against the u.s. is warranted, but it also seems that the u.s. has become the world's scapegoat. now its used to divert attention away from putin, who apparently pisses rainbows and craps sunshine in your eyes.

whatever your opinion thats fine, but to just jump the whole topic and bash the u.s. when they are not even directly involved makes you folks seems trite, silly, and boringly predictable.

AngryManatee
LOL now Georgia wants a cease-fire and instead Russia's expanding its retaliation/rape. Serves them right, the dumbasses.

inimalist
Originally posted by AngryManatee
Serves them right, the dumbasses.

they of course referring to the thousands of dead and tens of thousands dislocated?

dadudemon
Originally posted by Schecter
putin, who apparently pisses rainbows and craps sunshine in your eyes.


Well, he IS called "Putin" for a reason. big grin




and, damn...that has got to sting her eyes.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav

Russia will accept a ceasefire when the invading Georgian forces withdraw from occupied territory- its simple.
Georgia has already withdrawn, but Russia has not withdraw from South Ossetia. Kinda telling, don't you think?

inimalist
ha, I'm going to spam some youtube stuff:

From 2007

Georgia/Russia tensions

TZtIjN78T4A

Georgia authoritarian crackdown

zrhtc2uEKk8

from 2008

April: Russia shoots down unmanned Georgian plane

HkeCvQ47bDY

from aug 5th, talks about the initial Georgian assault on South Ossetia

BQpeBvBEvds

ya, again, sorry to spam, but they are 2 min clips and i'd rather not just parrot them/have to site them anyways.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Georgia has already withdrawn, but Russia has not withdraw from South Ossetia. Kinda telling, don't you think?

There is no need for Russia to withdraw, they are there defending the Sovreignty of the Ossetian (Russian) people.

Originally posted by inimalist
thats a dodge though, isn't it?

like, i mean, President Jesus of Russia has just been informed by his defense advisor that Odessia has been attacked by Georgian aggressors, is his response really "make those ****ers pay"?

Indeed, if I was President I would certainly not have given orders to fire on civilian targets, however I note a slight irony here, what happened to separation of Church and State? I can't allow my religious views to shape what I think about Abortion but I can about War? I can sympathise with how the Russian Government feels- this is not a premeditated assault it is a protection of their people.



Originally posted by inimalist
but if the desire is quickest victory, then even you must believe the Russians are acting with restraint.

They could turn Georgia into Chernobyl part 2 and there would never be conflict between Georgian authorities and Odessia ever again, quick, easy, victory.

However, obviously you don't believe that and I feel you should realize that it is rather like putting your foot in your mouth to defend the targeting of civilian cites by Russian forces.

Sometimes the easiest thing isn't the right thing wink

Indeed and when the Diktat in Georgia nexts decides to commit genocide do we just, push them out of the territory they are cleansing, stop and leave them to rebuild and pick on someone else?

No, a firm hard slap in the face is what Georgia needs, its devastating whats happening to the people- but they were benefiting from their Governments actions, they have too accept the consequences as well.

Originally posted by inimalist
I would do everything I could to end the conflict with the lowest loss of lives. A situation that devolves to war is lost in the first place.

To nuke or not to nuke then.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
There is no need for Russia to withdraw, they are there defending the Sovreignty of the Ossetian (Russian) people.
South Osettia is NOT Russian land. It is an independent region of both Georgia and Russia. If you need a comparison, it's Kosovo. Neither have a right to be there.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
South Osettia is NOT Russian land. It is an independent region of both Georgia and Russia. If you need a comparison, it's Kosovo. Neither have a right to be there.

The Russian Forces were called in to assist by the Osettian militias who were being attacked by the Georgians (who broke a ceasefire).

Fact, Russian Citizens were attacked by a foreign power, Russia moved in to protect its Citizens.

They are not the only country in the world who would do that...

RocasAtoll
Fact, Russia has no need to be there now. Georgia is gone and done. If they were just protecting Ossetia and upholding its sovereignty, they would be withdrawing.

inimalist
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Indeed, if I was President I would certainly not have given orders to fire on civilian targets, however I note a slight irony here, what happened to separation of Church and State? I can't allow my religious views to shape what I think about Abortion but I can about War? I can sympathise with how the Russian Government feels- this is not a premeditated assault it is a protection of their people.

haha, thats actually a really good point

I was just giving you the gears about that, I'm hardly in a position to say what Jesus would do in any situation, nor to make a comment on someone's relation to Christ.

I do agree with the protection thing. However, their actions have not been exclusively defensive. A good offense may be the best defense in football, but it is inexcusable in war. For someone to even try and wage "moral" military action, even in defense, requires the highest standard of care for human life. From the media sources I trust, I don't see Russia as acting in that way. (Nor are the Georgians for that matter, but I think everyone agrees on that).

Its funny, every conflict in the world is because some major power is either messing it up or has yet to intervene. Maybe new ideas are necessary... and im ranting...

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Indeed and when the Diktat in Georgia nexts decides to commit genocide do we just, push them out of the territory they are cleansing, stop and leave them to rebuild and pick on someone else?

we have evidence of Genocide?

Nations clamp down on break away regions constantly, I think it does little to the conversation to call it genocide without due cause.

Say what you will, but I am in many ways an isolationist. Regardless of the help one thinks they can bring, I don't see foreign powers as being capable of stopping local problems. I could totally be wrong here, and maybe Eastern Europe has seen more benefits from the international community than africa and the arab world, so ya, maybe Russia pulls it off and I eat my hat.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No, a firm hard slap in the face is what Georgia needs, its devastating whats happening to the people- but they were benefiting from their Governments actions, they have too accept the consequences as well.

I refuse to blame the victim, especially in a case like this. Even those who support their government do not deserve death and a loss of their livelihood.

I'm obviously not proposing no reply. However, do you really see a strong Russian reaction here as a force for peace and stability in the lives of common Georgians?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
To nuke or not to nuke then.

nuke the whales

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Fact, Russia has no need to be there now. Georgia is gone and done. If they were just protecting Ossetia and upholding its sovereignty, they would be withdrawing.

Yes ofcourse, because thats what you do when you protect someone, you go in then leave...

NO

You go in, you wait until the home nation is able to put up a defense of its own.

Georgia broke a ceasefire once, they can do it again.

Besides, why shouldn't they stay there? They have every right.

inimalist
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav

Georgia broke a ceasefire once, they can do it again.


Besides, why shouldn't they stay there? They have every right.

Do you then believe that Israel has the right to occupy Palestine?

(and no, I'm not insinuating that the situations are very comparable, though on this point they are kind of close)

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by inimalist
Do you then believe that Israel has the right to occupy Palestine?

(and no, I'm not insinuating that the situations are very comparable, though on this point they are kind of close)

See, thats funny because I was thinking about that myself.

If Palestine had a majority of Israeli citizens who were being attacked by a foreign power...then yes they would have a right to enter and protect those citizens.

Originally posted by inimalist
haha, thats actually a really good point

I was just giving you the gears about that, I'm hardly in a position to say what Jesus would do in any situation, nor to make a comment on someone's relation to Christ.

We'll let Jesus decide on what he would do laughing out loud

Originally posted by inimalist
I do agree with the protection thing. However, their actions have not been exclusively defensive. A good offense may be the best defense in football, but it is inexcusable in war. For someone to even try and wage "moral" military action, even in defense, requires the highest standard of care for human life. From the media sources I trust, I don't see Russia as acting in that way. (Nor are the Georgians for that matter, but I think everyone agrees on that).

Its funny, every conflict in the world is because some major power is either messing it up or has yet to intervene. Maybe new ideas are necessary... and im ranting...

Maybe we need to get past the ideas of nationalities...

Originally posted by inimalist
we have evidence of Genocide?
I wonder how many politicians asked that during World War II...


Originally posted by inimalist
Nations clamp down on break away regions constantly, I think it does little to the conversation to call it genocide without due cause.
Thats what the President of Russia called it...on the news they were saying that Georgian forces were flooding basements filled with Russians..

Originally posted by inimalist
Say what you will, but I am in many ways an isolationist. Regardless of the help one thinks they can bring, I don't see foreign powers as being capable of stopping local problems. I could totally be wrong here, and maybe Eastern Europe has seen more benefits from the international community than africa and the arab world, so ya, maybe Russia pulls it off and I eat my hat.
It is local for Russia, because it is her citizens who are being attacked.



Originally posted by inimalist
I refuse to blame the victim, especially in a case like this. Even those who support their government do not deserve death and a loss of their livelihood.

No they do not, but that is war.
Originally posted by inimalist
I'm obviously not proposing no reply. However, do you really see a strong Russian reaction here as a force for peace and stability in the lives of common Georgians?

Who cares about the common Georgians?

Originally posted by inimalist
nuke the whales

Grand_Moff_Gav
The BBC has just reported that the US Government (who allowed the US Army to train Georgian forces) told Georgia that they were practically part of Nato, thus they could expect to act with the full backing of Nato- thus they felt (in the BBC's words) like they could act with impunity. However, no Nato country has come to, or wants to come to, Georgia's aid.

The French Foreign minister was just on, he seemed a little drunk, he says both countries need to totally withdraw and we need to put in control...he wasn't very clear but then, he was speaking English which is obviously not his first language.

inimalist
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
See, thats funny because I was thinking about that myself.

If Palestine had a majority of Israeli citizens who were being attacked by a foreign power...then yes they would have a right to enter and protect those citizens.

lol, interesting, I don't think I disagree...

and not wanting to turn the thread into Israel/Palestine, I say word smile

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Maybe we need to get past the ideas of nationalities...

I'm with it

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I wonder how many politicians asked that during World War II...

ok, I concede that, unfortunately I won't accept something without verification.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Thats what the President of Russia called it...on the news they were saying that Georgian forces were flooding basements filled with Russians..

oh sad

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
It is local for Russia, because it is her citizens who are being attacked.

I don't necessarily believe that is true. They are technically an independent territory of Georgia, and I don't think that they would necessarily like to be part of Russia after this.

I'm not sure whether I'm sold on the idea that just because Russia has supplied them with passports they are allowed to use military force to protect them. If they universally granted citizenship to all people of the world would they then be allowed to use military force anywhere?

(yes, they did ask for Russia's help, so maybe that is all moot)

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No they do not, but that is war.

lol, and some day when I grow up I will understand what that means

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Who cares about the common Georgians?

ya, ef em

inimalist
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
The BBC has just reported that the US Government (who allowed the US Army to train Georgian forces) told Georgia that they were practically part of Nato, thus they could expect to act with the full backing of Nato- thus they felt (in the BBC's words) like they could act with impunity. However, no Nato country has come to, or wants to come to, Georgia's aid.

The French Foreign minister was just on, he seemed a little drunk, he says both countries need to totally withdraw and we need to put in control...he wasn't very clear but then, he was speaking English which is obviously not his first language.

WTF IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT THIS GOD DAMMED PIECE OF LAND!

there are no resources, its of no military significance, why the hell are the world's superpowers fighting each other over it?

/emo

WrathfulDwarf
I just hope this conflict could be resolve soon. Just very unfortunate for the people living there....

And just to lighten up things around here...

This is how we Americans poke fun @ the Russians back in the 80s.

5CaMUfxVJVQ&feature=related

Man...we have come a long way and now we portray the Russians as mobsters and etc...

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Yes ofcourse, because thats what you do when you protect someone, you go in then leave...

NO

You go in, you wait until the home nation is able to put up a defense of its own.

Georgia broke a ceasefire once, they can do it again.

Besides, why shouldn't they stay there? They have every right.
Georgia isn't going to attack again, and the home troops already had stalemated the Georgian forces before Russian troops came.

Georgia can't break another considering they now found out Russia won't have to deal with NATO if Georgia goes insane again.

They have no right to be there anymore. It is not Russia's land.

Bicnarok

AngryManatee
Originally posted by Bicnarok



http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/5828/grqe6.jpg

From what I've read, that combat aircraft count needs to be reduced to 0 for Georgia.

Bicnarok
I think a few things need to be updated actually,

Phantom Zone

shiv
There is criticism of Russia pushing back Georgian forces deep into their own territory.

That criticism is misplaced.

South Ossetia is the one calling the Shots, first the summons to Russia for Salvation second the unofficial request to get even with their aggressors.

That's what France did in WW2 it requested The Allies save it protect it and give its neigbour Germany a bloody nose.

Everyone likes to get even. And Payback is a *****.

In Theory South Ossetia could stop everything by saying "Thanks Guys we owe you one. don't call us we'll call you."

In reality Russia will say "fine, but WTF we can't keep doing this dance time and time again.
Its bad for our image and bad for business your problems are giving us problems.
Lets end this. Either you join up with us or you pay us to protect you. Or we walk and leave you to your own devices."

South Ossetia is too weak to survive unaided. They have to accept this for the region to have stability.

Bicnarok

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by inimalist
WTF IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT THIS GOD DAMMED PIECE OF LAND!

there are no resources, its of no military significance, why the hell are the world's superpowers fighting each other over it?

/emo

Its about boxing in the "Islamic threat".

inimalist
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
From what I understand when the Soviet Union was collapsing America helped Georgia to free itself from Russia. Maybe its not about the resources but the principle of the thing.

thats sort of what I meant. If its not about resources or whatever, just about nationalist ego, its such a tragic waste of life.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What a sec didn't Russia have some beef with Georgia over oil?


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/georgia/oil-politics.htm

this makes 700% more sense now

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Its about boxing in the "Islamic threat".

lol, the "fighting them over there" principle?

Utrigita
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
They had a Ceasefire with South Ossetia and then broke it. Yet, now they are asking for one with Russia?

I think they should be taught a lesson for their illegal assualt on the Ossetian republic.

I don't recall the Chinese Citizens of Tibet being attacked by Tibetian forces...

A ceasefire forced down on there head in 1992 by Russia. Then in 2004 Georgia strenghted there position in the land because of rising crime, a problem Russia was in no way willing to help combat, Also all are so quick to blame Georgia for firing the first shot, when none actually know who fired the first shot in Tshinkvali, to me it could as easily have been the South Ossetians as it could have been the Geogians, lets face it they isn't exactly love birds.

If you analyse the size difference army wise anything else then to ask for ceasefire against Russia would be idiotic.

Yes they should, but none asked Russia to bomb Georgia back to the stone age, lets remember one thing here, none attacked Russia, Russia intervened on there own account, because they thought it was there right, in that aspect they where no better then US attacking Iraq.

Yet the Chinese goverment claim that is the reason they stay in the country to protect there citizens from attacks? and that is by you comment no problem, because they have the right to protect there citizens.

inimalist
Originally posted by shiv
And Payback is a *****.

would you say that about all the people who lost their lives on 9-11?

inimalist
Originally posted by Utrigita
Also all are so quick to blame Georgia for firing the first shot, when none actually know who fired the first shot in Tshinkvali, to me it could as easily have been the South Ossetians as it could have been the Geogians, lets face it they isn't exactly love birds.


this is very true

however, the Georgian response saw intense shelling of civilian populations, which is inexcuseable

Grand_Moff_Gav
Georgia has called for the West to come to its Aid...it amuses me that they really thought they could act with immunity because of their "close ties" with NATO.

chithappens
Originally posted by Phantom Zone

What a sec didn't Russia have some beef with Georgia over oil?



I didn't even know about this but it was obvious that some "tangible" incentive was in play.

It is never about morality/respect/(whatever bullshit word we would like to insert).

Grand_Moff_Gav
Georgian Tanks and Helicopters remain in action according to Reuters.

Utrigita
Originally posted by inimalist
this is very true

however, the Georgian response saw intense shelling of civilian populations, which is inexcuseable

I agree, and that was not a way to justify that Georgia have attack civilians merely a request, to remember that we doesn't know who actually fired the first shot and broke the cease fire, giving both parties history I would say that both could have done it.

shiv
Originally posted by inimalist
would you say that about all the people who lost their lives on 9-11?

Those people are out of the game

And who is responsible for that?

I don't see how Afghanistan and Iraq are teh Demonz in that scenario

For payback you have to clearly identify your enemy.

so if a snake bites you. nuking the Planet is not payback, or nuking the adjuscent Solar system which thinks snakes are cool

To get payback you must correctly identify the snake that bit you First.

so if you rob me and I beat up a guy who drives a car like yours that is not payback.

The answer to your question is no.

inimalist
Originally posted by shiv

The answer to your question is no.

well, aside from being nonsensical, you totally misinterpreted my question

Al Qaeda launched attacks against American interests and finally against the American mainland in retaliation to American involvement in many places in the Middle East.

Thus, those who were killed on 9-11 were killed as payback for American misadventures, and thus, in your words, are a *****.

I didn't ask if the American response to 9-11 was payback, but hey, thats cool, American egoism and all that.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by inimalist

this makes 700% more sense now

LOL, you can say that again.


Originally posted by chithappens
I didn't even know about this but it was obvious that some "tangible" incentive was in play.

It is never about morality/respect/(whatever bullshit word we would like to insert).

Yup.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/georgia/oil-politics.htm

shiv
Originally posted by inimalist
well, aside from being nonsensical, you totally misinterpreted my question

an open ended question.

Originally posted by inimalist
Al Qaeda launched attacks against American interests and finally against the American mainland in retaliation to American involvement in many places in the Middle East.

k.

Originally posted by inimalist Thus, those who were killed on 9-11 were killed as payback for American misadventures, and thus, in your words, are a *****.

OH. MY. GOD.


Originally posted by inimalist I didn't ask if the American response to 9-11 was payback, but hey, thats cool, American egoism and all that.

sick

Bardock42
You are right, shiv. The people in 9/11 had it coming.

Blax_Hydralisk
Obviously. How dare they.

inimalist
Originally posted by shiv
OH. MY. GOD.

sick

hey, that was my reaction too

why you would make an argument like that, I will never know

Blax_Hydralisk
And I love his replies to your points. It's epic, how much his logic fails.

inimalist
lol, what replies

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh, zing wink

Blax_Hydralisk
Hey! A smiley is a perfectly good reply!

inimalist
and there is no way I can argue against it






shifty

shiv
your dialogue is sensationalist and disrespectful to the friends and families of the people who died in 911.

Lets go Back on Topic.

Bardock42
Originally posted by shiv
your dialogue is sensationalist and disrespectful to the friends and families of the people who died in 911.

Lets go Back on Topic.

I agree with you, I also think that all the people that died in 9/11 deserved it. You are right, it was payback, and it was justified. I am glad you spoke up to tell the truth.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by leonheartmm
jamil serbia jamal baladi. what does that mean bitchiness?{ive been wondering}

anyhows, russia IS using the pretext of peacekeaping efforts, that tells u a bit about its intentions.

Why must you point out my poor sentance formation in front of everyone...? sad


The translation is in yer inbox.

Strangelove
John McCain has called for a UN Security Council Resolution condemning Russia's aggression against Georgia

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/mccain-calls-for-u.n.-resolution-against-russia-2008-08-11.html

Bicnarok
The comparison with 9/11 is rather out of place, especially as the US Leaders probably knew something about it, and used it as a reason to attack Afghanistan and Iraq.

This is about something else, very confusing part of the world which we cannot begin to compare to the west.

inimalist
911 is very apt if you use it in the way I did, which was to point out that most americans would not pass off the deaths of their fellow citizens as "being a *****" due to the retributitory nature of the attacks.

If those dying in Georgia as a result of their government's actions are just "a *****", the very same can be said of those who died on 9-11 because of their government's actions. Obviously the metaphore does not cover the entire situation, though I feel it works perfectly there.

American lives aren't the only ones that are lost tragically. Just because they don't print innane bumper stickers for the Georgians doesn't mean their deaths aren't just as tragic or needless.

Originally posted by shiv
your dialogue is sensationalist and disrespectful to the friends and families of the people who died in 911.

I'd argue, but sure it could be disrespectful. It is not incorrect however.

inimalist
Further Russian aggression today has seen the city of Gori captured and bombings of the capital Tbilisi. Russians claim it is peacekeeping, France is going to send its president on a peace mission, and the Georgians are claiming the Russians want to liquidate the government

chithappens
Originally posted by inimalist


American lives aren't the only ones that are lost tragically. Just because they don't print innane bumper stickers for the Georgians doesn't mean their deaths aren't just as tragic or needless.


I guess you forgot about who your audience is...

RocasAtoll
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4507980.ece

Article on what Inimalist said. Russia's really coming off as the benevolent peacekeeper aren't they?

shiv
lol.








I saw a headline like "Thousands Flee as Russia starts Ethnic Cleansing!!"




Yeah Right.

inimalist
lol, where did you see that?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by shiv
lol.








I saw a headline like "Thousands Flee as Russia starts Ethnic Cleansing!!"




Yeah Right.


In fact there is noone left in Georgia. Russia vaporized them all. With their super advanced ethnic cleansing weapons.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by inimalist
Just because they don't print innane bumper stickers for the Georgians doesn't mean their deaths aren't just as tragic or needless.


laughing out loud That was good.

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
In fact there is noone left in Georgia. Russia vaporized them all. With their super advanced ethnic cleansing weapons.

What are the Russians saying about capturing Gori and hitting the capital?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
laughing out loud That was good.

Danke smile

Grand_Moff_Gav
This is good, the Georgians have now admitted that the Russians never entered Gori!

They though they could keep going and the USA would intervene and help.

inimalist
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
This is good, the Georgians have now admitted that the Russians never entered Gori!

link?

RocasAtoll
Well, supposedly, there are American mercenaries fighting with the Georgians. Russians advancing found black soldiers clad in the same uniforms as PMC corporations.

inimalist
I saw that on Russia Today too...

I'm just going to have to stop reading anything that isn't Al Jazeera, lol. I don't know who else to trust. Arabs are the best....







wait....



EDIT: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/2008811171730453756.html

from Al Jazeera:

Earlier, Alexander Lomaia, the secretary of Georgia's security council, said that Russian forces had also occupied the Georgian city of Gori and that Georgian forces were fortifying positions near Tbilisi to defend the capital.

He said: "Russian forces are occupying Gori. Georgian armed forces received an order to leave Gori and to fortify positions near Mtskheta to defend the capital. This is a total onslaught."

Mtskheta is a Georgian city 24km from Tbilisi.

Moscow denied that it had taken Gori.

Earlier, Jonah Hull, Al Jazeera's correspondent outside Gori, confirmed that the city had been evacuated.

Hull said: "The evacuation began suddenly... when word came that the Russians were 5km to 10km from the city's limits. I have seen civilians and the army fleeing. Georgian troops clinging to the back of quad bikes. I have seen tanks leaving in no particular formation. It's panic basically."

EDIT #2: Spam fest

VAZTpLYnkE

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by inimalist
link?



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm

inimalist
cool, thx smile

shiv
lol-fest

Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by shiv
lol-fest

...Who...who are you?

shiv
The ever changing press statements issued by the Georgians are clownish.

leonheartmm
hrm intresting, russia has taken over thje city of gori completely. kinda makes u think dont it, is this a peacekeaping operation or is russia seriously trying to conquer georgia this time?!?!?!?!

Alpha Centauri
Didn't the Russians end their bombing?

Apparantly this conflicts with Georgian claims that they are still being attacked.

-AC

inimalist
both sides have denied various battles although the media reports on going conflict. Russia has admitted Georgian forces have surrendered in S Ossetia.

And, with maybe the exception of their initial campaign into S Ossetia, I must say, there is little to suggest that the Russians are being indiscriminate with their attacks. I'd still say aggressive and abusing Georgia's soverignty, but casualties are very low from the reports that I am seeing. ie, the Georgian military is broken.

In S Ossetia, Red cross reports only a few hundred casualties, not the thousands claimed by Russia, which leads one to question the claims of Genocide. The red cross also calls doubt on Russian numbers of the displaced, though admits it is almost impossible to know for sure on these numbers.

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