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Mr. Sinister, who was dominating Xavier (albeit in a recovering-from-bullet-shattered mental state) during much of the X-men Legacy arc takes on Emma Frost, who has previously defeated Rachel Grey and stalemated Exodus in a purely telepathic battle.
They can take the fight to the Astral Plane if they wish.
Who wins?

Originally posted by Glorificus
Mr. Sinister, who was dominating Xavier (albeit in a recovering-from-bullet-shattered mental state) during much of the X-men Legacy arc takes on Emma Frost, who has previously defeated Rachel Grey and stalemated Exodus in a purely telepathic battle.
They can take the fight to the Astral Plane if they wish.
Who wins?

Probably Sinister. he has all of Emma's abilities (telepathy, telekinesis, superhuman strength) and then some (shapeshifting, teleportation, some vaguely defined energy projection powers)

he's also a good deal older and a lot smarter- sinister is intimately familiar with just about every mutant genetic code there is. Hell, he was the one that cloned madelyne pryor from Jean's genetic template (who is quite a bit stronger than emma), and an alternate sinister created X-man from scratch- and Xman is most CERTAINLY more powerful than the former white queen.

Sinister also seems to have a LOT of very advanced tech just laying around for him to use. Not quite on Richards or Doom's level, but better than most on the planet have access to.

there isn't going to be a lot emma can do that sinister wouldn't anticipate or be able to counter. The opposite though...is most certainly NOT true.

Besides: how on earth do you kill sinister? Nothing has ever really been shown to permanently be able to put him down.

advantage: sinister.

sinister

The one thing about this fight that needs to be considered is that Emma Frost will make sure that her Diamond Form nor his Extra Abilities come into play here.

Like with what happened with Exodus who possesses as many off handed powers as Mr. Sinister.
http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan12ff6.jpg

Not to mention that she has simultaneously blocked Mr. Sinister from accessing all his powers and Exodus and possibly Lady Mastermind as well from halfway across the world while giving a Sentinel Pilot a nosebleed and sitting on a sofa.
While he erected a psi-shield around his base to keep her out when she got distracted by Pixie's screams.

In short the only power that matters here is telepathy.

It would be close.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The one thing about this fight that needs to be considered is that Emma Frost will make sure that her Diamond Form nor his Extra Abilities come into play here.

Like with what happened with Exodus who possesses as many off handed powers as Mr. Sinister.
http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan12ff6.jpg

Not to mention that she has simultaneously blocked Mr. Sinister from accessing all his powers and Exodus and possibly Lady Mastermind as well from halfway across the world while giving a Sentinel Pilot a nosebleed and sitting on a sofa.
While he erected a psi-shield around his base to keep her out when she got distracted by Pixie's screams.

In short the only power that matters here is telepathy.

It would be close.

not really. Exodus and Sinister both have a lot of powers and abilities, but there's nothing anywhere that says Sinister can't employ telepathy and his other powers simultaneously. They're not the same character, not by a long shot. That limitation very well could be exclusive to exodus.

In particular, that scan you posted had exodus taken out via physical means while his powers were tied up using telepathy. Sinister's physical body has always been shown to be resistant or outright immune to damage by default. It's not a power he needs to turn "on" to use. Had that had been Sinister vs. Emma in that scan, emma would be screwed.

Also: some of sinister's powers (teleportation comes to mind) are tech based. Using telepathy (or even nulling out his powers completely) wouldn't prevent sinister from teleporting himself or emma elsewhere to give himself an edge, or dispose of her via BFR.

bottom line here is that sinister is (or should be) intimately familiar with how emma's powers work, and there would be no surprises. Again, he's created stronger telepaths than emma (madelyne pryor, nate grey) at will. The reverse is not true- emma CERTAINLY has no idea of the limits of sinister's abilities. no one does.

Sinister has the upper hand here.

Okay, yes Sinister has more powers and he is more experienced in those powers than Emma, but this is a purely telepathic battle; they fight with ONLY their telepathy. Who wins in this case?

Originally posted by Space M ummy
not really. Exodus and Sinister both have a lot of powers and abilities, but there's nothing anywhere that says Sinister can't employ telepathy and his other powers simultaneously. They're not the same character, not by a long shot. That limitation very well could be exclusive to exodus.

In particular, that scan you posted had exodus taken out via physical means while his powers were tied up using telepathy. Sinister's physical body has always been shown to be resistant or outright immune to damage by default. It's not a power he needs to turn "on" to use. Had that had been Sinister vs. Emma in that scan, emma would be screwed.

Also: some of sinister's powers (teleportation comes to mind) are tech based. Using telepathy (or even nulling out his powers completely) wouldn't prevent sinister from teleporting himself or emma elsewhere to give himself an edge, or dispose of her via BFR.

bottom line here is that sinister is (or should be) intimately familiar with how emma's powers work, and there would be no surprises. Again, he's created stronger telepaths than emma (madelyne pryor, nate grey) at will. The reverse is not true- emma CERTAINLY has no idea of the limits of sinister's abilities. no one does.

Sinister has the upper hand here.

You misunderstand it isn't exclusive to Exodus for the following reasons:

Mr. Sinister was left kneeling and unable to deploy powers such as his telekinesis when Emma blocked him in the Messiah Complex. Only after she was distracted by the New X-Men being in peril did he attack Angel with his powers.

Secondly Exodus did not have this problem when he faced Xavier. He blasted Magneto with a TK blast in X-Men Legacy while on the Astral Plane. Both X-Men #207 and Legacy were written by Mike Carey and I believe the issue came out only 1-2 months after X-Men #207.

Emma excels in this area of telepathy.

Thirdly Sinister does not need to be taken out physically as it's almost impossible to do so without BFR. Being taken out mentally is enough and Emma is a telepath of higher caliber in terms of feats.

You're also mistaken Sinister will be concentrating on not getting mind wiped, and as far as I can recall his mechanical teleportation isn't standard equipment or he would have used it when he was kneeling on the floor helplessly.

IRRC He has used his teleportation in the Colossus Bloodline mini but it wasn't tech like I believe it was in the Inferno arc. He actually can teleport if I recall correctly.

The way marvel has either killed, depowered or exiled all their most powerful mutant telepaths just to make her the resident telepath she can probably beat a sentient astral plane with the mind gem these days.

Originally posted by LordKaos
The way marvel has either killed, depowered or exiled all their most powerful mutant telepaths just to make her the resident telepath she can probably beat a sentient astral plane with the mind gem these days.



Have you read the Solicits for SI: X-Men #3?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You misunderstand it isn't exclusive to Exodus for the following reasons:

Mr. Sinister was left kneeling and unable to deploy powers such as his telekinesis when Emma blocked him in the Messiah Complex. Only after she was distracted by the New X-Men being in peril did he attack Angel with his powers.

Secondly Exodus did not have this problem when he faced Xavier. He blasted Magneto with a TK blast in X-Men Legacy while on the Astral Plane. Both X-Men #207 and Legacy were written by Mike Carey.

This seems to be an error on the part of the writer then, if exodus is being portrayed inconsistently.



Emma isn't a higher caliber telepath than Xman or Jean Grey, and Sinister has manhandled both. the respect thread has Sinister mindwiping Jean on the astral plane

here

AND taking out both Xman + Xforce simultaneously- hell, he flat out ignores the assault. On top of that, THIS scan shows Sinister not only simply absorbing a telepathic assault from Xman, but returning it 10x.

here

Emma may be powerful, but she's definitely weaker than Xman when it comes to TP. Remember, Xman is the one that pulled ONSLAUGHT out of the psychic plane by force.



they've retconned a few of his powers since inferno. His teleportation was revealed to be a function of the tech in his fortress, not an innate power. If the writer chose not to have him use it, that's a continuity error.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
This seems to be an error on the part of the writer then, if exodus is being portrayed inconsistently.

Not inconsistent, Emma is a different type of telepath to Xavier. She excels at mental surgery.



Jean did not have her telepathy in the Inferno and one can argue these days that Jean Grey sans Phoenix was not as powerful as Emma Frost. Emma has also manhandled X-Man in X-Man #50 after Psi-War when he thought he didn't have his telepathy anymore and she's beaten Rachel Grey on the Astral Plane through skill.

Plus she has been spewing a lot of Global Telepathic feats these days without Cerebra which out classes Mr. Sinister's few telepathic feats.



The Astral Plane is not about power it's about skill.Which is why people like an inexperienced Rachel and Pre-Shaman X-Man lose on the astral plane.




Whether it's innate or not it would have no bearing on this fight as both would motionless and on the astral plane in a fight.

Look I'm a Mr. Sinister Fan heck I even contributed to his Respect Thread(Pwning Psylocke) and if you do a search in the Sinister vs. Juggernaut thread you'll find evidence that I do acknowledge his power. But he wasn't very active in terms of telepathy after the Inferno. You have Onslaught and that X-Man incident and then you have the MC and Blinded by the Light where Exodus considers him as one of the 5 super telepaths in the world which pretty much confirmed to fans that he was up their with Xavier. But among those 5 was Emma and she just has better telepathic feats then him.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not inconsistent, Emma is a different type of telepath to Xavier. She excels at mental surgery.

ok, So sinister has been shown to have the upper hand on Xavier, Jean, Xman, AND Psylocke

but emma is apparently a different telepath than all four, and sinister won't know how to deal with it? Right.


Bull. Jean was fully powered during Inferno.



one would be wrong. Jean was second only to Xavier in TP sans phoenix. The phoenix force gets a LOT of hype on this board, and it's frequently overlooked just how powerful she is without it.



Sinister has "few telepathic feats" because telepathy isn't his only skill. he's first and foremost a geneticist, and one of the most brilliant ones on the planet at that.

I agree that skill will trump raw power- not just on the astral plane but in just about any form of combat. Rachel Grey and Nate Grey are BOTH stronger than emma is. However, both are relatively inexperienced. The same cannot be said for sinister- He's FAR older than emma is, and definitely NOT a rookie when it comes to the use of telepathic powers.

again, he's familiar enough with telepathy and the genes that compose it that he can and has replicated some of the most powerful telepaths on earth.

but regardless, emma is at a disadvantage here. Sinister's physical form is immune to anything she could dish out via her diamond form, has enough experience with the astral plane to defeat and/or mindwipe Xavier, Jean, and Psylocke there, and enough skill/power to flat out absorb AND return 10x a psychic assault from Xman.

could emma take the force of her own powers returned tenfold? probably not. Advantage sinister.

sigh...

Jean Grey is nowhere near the telepath Emma is without the Phoenix Force to boost her up. Sorry. I know that some issues say that Jean is next in line after Xavier (this is with the Shadow King omission, of course, since he at times dwarfs Xavier), however, if you go by what their level of telepathic power is defined by what they have been successful in achieving and what they have failed at doing, Emma is ahead of Jean by a good margin.

That said, Sinister may already be prepared for Emma and we not know about it. Sinister is overall vastly more powerful than she, but she does have him in the TP department.

The fight is a 50/50. If Emma can engage him in psychic combat before he can bring his other powers to bear, she wins. He will not have any concentration left to spare to access his other abilities. If he manages to use his other powers before she can force the TP confrontation, the advantage swings in his favor. Her diamond form is too limited. A mere second-rate Colossus-type power, though she is immune to TP in this form, is a stupid thing to try and challenge Sinister with.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
ok, So sinister has been shown to have the upper hand on Xavier, Jean, Xman, AND Psylocke

but emma is apparently a different telepath than all four, and sinister won't know how to deal with it? Right.

Jean did not have telepathy.
And Psylocke sucks as a telepath.

I still have to read the rest of Carey's Sins of a Father arc when I get back home because I'm out of the country. But I believe he took over Charle's body and had access to his telepathy through his DNA due to the Blackwomb project. And now Mr. Sinister is Miss. Sinister.

And yes she is a different type of telepath who manipulates biological functions through her telepathy eg Blocking Mutant powers, Inducing Orgasms and Boot straping Brain Chemistry to fight off toxins. It's an unusual use of telepathy that you don't see people like Charles do.




Wrong, Jean only had her Telekinesis during the Inferno go and re-read X-Factor.




I'd disagree since it was never concretely stated and because she got hammered by Exodus twice. But Jean isn't an issue here because Jean did not have her telepathy during the Inferno.




No he's not and that's why I said this would be close. But Emma has superior feats.
Selene has experience with her telepathy she's much older then Sinister but Daniel Moonstar >>> Selene in telepathy proven in New Mutants on panel.



Exactly how is that going to help him in this fight?



Emma has faced the freaking Phoenix Force and survived. In her first appearance she not only caused it pain but she managed to escape from it and Xavier undetected.
She managed to cloak her students from Onslaught. One of the few telepaths who remained out of his clutches.
She beat Rachel who's power levels were off the charts.
She telepathically blocked Mr. Sinister and Exodus from using any of their powers from halfway across the world by herself no Cerebra.
She mindraped X-Man from across the English Channel when he thought he lost his telepathy and then manhandled him in X-Man #50.
She managed to control 1000 Stepford Cuckoos. The same Cuckoos who managed to pull a psychic wammy over the Cosmic Phoenix Force, Xavier and Emma herself.

Emma is far more skilled then pre-Shaman X-Man.

Your question is like me saying will Mr. Sinister even be able to access his telepathy since you know Emma also blocked an Upgraded Charles Xavier's powers in World of War Hulk.




Quantity and Quality wins.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak


And yes she is a different type of telepath who manipulates biological functions through her telepathy eg Blocking Mutant powers, Inducing Orgasms and Boot straping Brain Chemistry to fight off toxins. It's an unusual use of telepathy that you don't see people like Charles do.


Quite agree, darling. She was also able to induce coma on herself to realistically fake death in Generation X.
http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=generationx02621bt7.jpg

Also she was shown successfully countering TK and hurting psi-invulnerable people including freaking Phoenix through her manipulations of raw psionic energy.
http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uncanny20xmen2019800320on7.jpg
That blast of raw psionic energy has destroyed a freakin' building.
It's not telekinesis, but can be handy in shielding from one when used on defence.
http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page0304zb4ep1.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmes0406sv4.jpg

And as for being Prima Donna of TP- she's not absurdly powerful, she's only probably the most skilled psi-user on the face of Earth right now, not being born absurdly powerful- her beginnings were modest compared even to Xavier. She didn't went through any ridiculous powerups- she's just skilled. It's easily to seem bush league next to the damn Phoenix, and now when she's out of the shadow of Phoenix Jean...

To echo EC and Charlotte the telepath who wields the surgical precision and skill can often beat the telepath who wields the brute force.

Emma hasn't always been the most powerful of telepaths but she has often shown herself to be incredibly skilled. Of Earth's telepaths she may in fact be considered the most skilled and diverse in her telepathic talents. And recently she's exhibited telepathic power to rival those classically considered more powerful such as Xavier and Exodus with several recent global range feats sans Cerebra and pitting her abilities head-to-head against the likes of an upgraded-Xavier and Exodus.

If Sinister's most impressive telepathic feats are smashing up the TK-only Jean's memories during Inferno, punking Psylocke who has frankly never impressed me as a telepath or making the inexperienced Nate fall for a preset trap... then in pure telepathic battle I'd see him faring rather poorly against Emma's scalpel.

And as shown during the recent X-event Sinister's other powers likely won't come into play as Emma's shown the ability to block those other powers and still engage in telepathic combat.

Mr Siniter for the win

There's a proof that Emma's superior to Sinister skillwise:

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
A Scott and Emma Moment

Followed by Sinisters analysis on Rogue. He comes to the same conclusion as Emma even with all his tech. Emma was going to set up some psychic flood gates to help Rogue but they were ambushed by the Marauders before she could get her resources together. I'm surprised Sinister didn't try the same.

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/5198/xmen204dcp0007xp6.th.jpghttp://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5339/xmen204dcp0008xw5.th.jpghttp://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4014/xmen204dcp0009qe0.th.jpghttp://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3439/xmen204dcp0010wu8.th.jpg


Emma said that with tech she was able to at least stabylise Rogue's state (Mystique lies about her being unable to find it among 8 billion minds). Sinister needs tech to perform diagnostics on her.
So no, he's not superior in that regard, and Emma HAS blocked his powers on panel.
His control over Xavier comes from Blackwomb project and his skills in genetics have little to do with the battle.