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I think the determining factor will be whether an dark Anakin can defeat Count Dooku.

This is Dooku as Sidious apprentice.

Well, if Revan can keep Mace at arms distance long enough with nasty Darkside attacks for Anakin to beat Dooku (he can) then they can double team Sammy.
More likely is that Revan won't and will fall (unknown Saber talents) and that it will be a showdown between Mace and Ani. Mace would probably win that. Although by ABC logic Anakin>Dooku=Mace.

Hmmmm....

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Well, if Revan can keep Mace at arms distance long enough with nasty Darkside attacks for Anakin to beat Dooku (he can) then they can double team Sammy.
More likely is that Revan won't and will fall (unknown Saber talents) and that it will be a showdown between Mace and Ani. Mace would probably win that. Although by ABC logic Anakin>Dooku=Mace.

Hmmmm....

The fight with Revan and Mace will most likely last longer than the Dooku and Anakin fight. There is no way Revan or Mace will take each other out quickly.

This leads to what I said before it all depends if Anakin or Dooku come out victorious.

B/c of Vapaad's superconducting loop, Mace will have an easier time with Revan than Dooku would have. I see Mace mopping the floor with revan.

Originally posted by Jbill311
B/c of Vapaad's superconducting loop, Mace will have an easier time with Revan than Dooku would have. I see Mace mopping the floor with revan.

You are referring to saber battle which is a by default win for Mace but mopping the floor you got to be kidding.

Mace is powerful indeed but lacks much force knowledge in comparison to Revan. Mace defeated Sidious in a saber battle that is it. Sidious stop trying to kill Mace once Anakin appeared.

Remember Revan is a skilled duelist and even if Mace is better and his style may not be known to Revan that does not mean he is going to wipe the floor with Revan. Revan has many force techniques that are not known to Mace. I do not see Mace surviving a force drain.

Also Revan might just allow Anakin to engage Mace and Dooku in a Saber battle while he does force lighting as he did with the Ratakans and kill Mace and Dooku in the process.

Mace takes out Revan with his Vapaad, and a Dark Side Anakin WILL defeat Dooku. After that, Mace takes out Anakin with Vapaad. Brevity all around.

^

Didn't I just say that?

Originally posted by Tangible God
Mace takes out Revan with his Vapaad, and a Dark Side Anakin WILL defeat Dooku. After that, Mace takes out Anakin with Vapaad. Brevity all around.

Really you have not address how Mace would survive a force drain. Also a dark side Anakin could not defeat Obi Wan and you say he will Dooku, get real.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Really you have not address how Mace would survive a force drain. Also a dark side Anakin could not defeat Obi Wan and you say he will Dooku, get real. Cuz you know, Dooku was a master at Soresu. Dooku had fought beside Anakin for three years and gotten to know his way of fighting, his way of thinking. Dooku being defeated by a Light Anakin wouldn't be defeated by a Dark Anakin. Yup, real is where I am not, and you sir, are.

And don't go asking me how Mace would survive an attack of the controversial Force Drain by the controversially under-sourced and under-developed Darth Revan. You wanna wax "prove this, prove that?" Start by providing some proof and some MUCH needed statistics to Revan's power.

Here is what we know of Revan's force powers. We know that is really strong in the force and he had a vast knowledge as Bane mentions. T

The only known offensive force techniques that we have evidence of Revan using are the force storm(lightning),force choke,the force storm ritual that Bane and the brotherhood uses and the thought bomb, the latter two are also completely useless in any duel.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Cuz you know, Dooku was a master at Soresu. Dooku had fought beside Anakin for three years and gotten to know his way of fighting, his way of thinking. Dooku being defeated by a Light Anakin wouldn't be defeated by a Dark Anakin. Yup, real is where I am not, and you sir, are.

And don't go asking me how Mace would survive an attack of the controversial Force Drain by the controversially under-sourced and under-developed Darth Revan. You wanna wax "prove this, prove that?" Start by providing some proof and some MUCH needed statistics to Revan's power.

What you just said makes no sense. So let me get this straight Obi Wan did not know Dooku style and had no knowlege of his fighting style. Oh right did not Dooku train Obi Wan's master.

Anakin as a dark user did not have his head on straight and that is the main reason why he lost. Knowing his style would do nothing but help Obi Wan survive for a time. Anakin was not the same as when he was a light user. Dooku would definitely use Anakin's arrogance and stupidity aganist him.

I see you need to see everything on paper before it becomes real to you. I am already having this discussion with Elite on another thread. So tell me Revan's student or apprentice Malak knew the technique but Revan did not. Malak who went to the same places as Revan, Revan who actually went there first did not know the technique. Revan the one who hungred for knowledge some how learn many deadly techniques but missed force drain.

But Keria and Malak was able to. I do not remember Malak or Keria learning any new techiques that was describe as unknown to Revan. Only Nihilius was describe as taking it to a whole new level.

You are excusing because you don't have a custscene or statistic book when everything points to him knowing the technique. Your I don't know is not good enough.

Originally posted by Kotor3
What you just said makes no sense. So let me get this straight Obi Wan did not know Dooku style and had no knowlege of his fighting style. Oh right did not Dooku train Obi Wan's master.

Anakin as a dark user did not have his head on straight and that is the main reason why he lost. Knowing his style would do nothing but help Obi Wan survive for a time. Anakin was not the same as when he was a light user. Dooku would definitely use Anakin's arrogance and stupidity aganist him.

I see you need to see everything on paper before it becomes real to you. I am already having this discussion with Elite on another thread. So tell me Revan's student or apprentice Malak knew the technique but Revan did not. Malak who went to the same places as Revan, Revan who actually went there first did not know the technique. Revan the one who hungred for knowledge some how learn many deadly techniques but missed force drain.

But Keria and Malak was able to. I do not remember Malak or Keria learning any new techiques that was describe as unknown to Revan. Only Nihilius was describe as taking it to a whole new level.

You are excusing because you don't have a custscene or statistic book when everything points to him knowing the technique. Your I don't know is not good enough. I'm gonna have to answer this one in baby steps, cuz you're losing me.

1.) Kenobi was a master at Soresu, which utilizes a perfect defence system. Dooku's is Makashi, elegant and graceful with elements of fencing, but falters against such vicious and ferocious attacks that a Dark Side Anakin could deliver. He's also not familiar with Anakin's style, like Kenobi is.

2.) WTF are you talking about? Where's Malak in this?

3.) You are going to learn, slowly it seems, that written proof and conclusive facts are EVERYTHING here. We only use speculation as a last resort measure, only AFTER all known facts have been exhausted.

Originally posted by Tangible God
You are going to learn, slowly it seems, that written proof and conclusive facts are EVERYTHING here. We only use speculation as a last resort measure, only AFTER all known facts have been exhausted.

Why didn't you ever explain this to Janus and co.?

Originally posted by Gideon
Why didn't you ever explain this to Janus and co.? That was back in the day when it was fun to see genuine fanboys and illogical asses get slammed. Now though...

Originally posted by Tangible God
I'm gonna have to answer this one in baby steps, cuz you're losing me.

1.) Kenobi was a master at Soresu, which utilizes a perfect defence system. Dooku's is Makashi, elegant and graceful with elements of fencing, but falters against such vicious and ferocious attacks that a Dark Side Anakin could deliver. He's also not familiar with Anakin's style, like Kenobi is.

2.) WTF are you talking about? Where's Malak in this?

3.) You are going to learn, slowly it seems, that written proof and conclusive facts are EVERYTHING here. We only use speculation as a last resort measure, only AFTER all known facts have been exhausted.

I have to go so I will address as much as I can for now.

For number 1 you said nothing I was not already aware of. All you have explain is the difference in the two fighting styles. It is all about how the user uses it. Dooku did defeat Anakin before.

For number two Malak is Revan's student and knew the technique and as I already said went to the same places as Revan.

Three, ok well that needs to be said to many people who post here. Once again though all you have said it you want it to be stated by the writers. Fine you can wait for that but because you do not agree is not reason enough for me to disregard. If you could explain how logically Revan would not know as Elite did in connection to Revan and the Star Forge, then perhaps I could accept.

Originally posted by Kotor3
What you just said makes no sense. So let me get this straight Obi Wan did not know Dooku style and had no knowlege of his fighting style. Oh right did not Dooku train Obi Wan's master.

Anakin as a dark user did not have his head on straight and that is the main reason why he lost. Knowing his style would do nothing but help Obi Wan survive for a time. Anakin was not the same as when he was a light user. Dooku would definitely use Anakin's arrogance and stupidity aganist him.

Obi wan used Soreseu, the DEFENSIVE form. He had a lifetime of battling alongside Anakin to learn Anakin's style. Using the dark side increased Anakin from a lv. 8 swordsman to lv. 9. The dark side makes you stronger. When he just dipped into it, he tooled Dooku.
Now, with the Dark Side under control (consciously being used) he is even stronger. He will totally clown Dooku.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I see you need to see everything on paper before it becomes real to you. I am already having this discussion with Elite on another thread. So tell me Revan's student or apprentice Malak knew the technique but Revan did not. Malak who went to the same places as Revan, Revan who actually went there first did not know the technique. Revan the one who hungered for knowledge some how learn many deadly techniques but missed force drain.

I think that you are saying that since Malak knew force drain, Revan must have known it also. This has to be an assumption, and when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. Darth Revan never knew the 'Full power of the star Forge' (verbatim from the game- I'm playing now) Malak could have learned the power 'Force Drain' during the time that he was the Lord of the Sith, which would have been after (or instead of) Darth Revan's rule. Revan never would have had the chance at the end of KotOR to learn Force Drain.

Originally posted by Kotor3
But Keria and Malak was able to. I do not remember Malak or Keria learning any new techiques that was describe as unknown to Revan. Only Nihilius was describe as taking it to a whole new level.

Kreia could have learned it during her time on the triumvirate, or while following the Exile on the Harbinger. Nihilius was a hole in the force, and rather than using the technique as a conscious effort, it was a compulsion. His power was a consequence of the deaths at Malachor V, not a focused and intentional use of the force.

Originally posted by Kotor3
You are excusing because you don't have a custscene or statistic book when everything points to him knowing the technique. Your I don't know is not good enough.

Not only does it not point to him knowing the technique, there is no evidence of Revan EVER learning the power. Without the support from Cannon sources, these arguments would degenerate to subjective brown-nosing of our favorite characters. Learn grammar, find some sources, and come back after reading a few books.

p.s. I have $60 stashed away for KotOR 3, and the second it comes out, my family won't hear from me for about two weeks, AND IT IS GOING TO BE RELEASED

Originally posted by Kotor3
I have to go so I will address as much as I can for now.

For number 1 you said nothing I was not already aware of. All you have explain is the difference in the two fighting styles. It is all about how the user uses it. Dooku did defeat Anakin before. It matter what styles you know, how well you know them, how immersed you are in the Dark Side (in this case). Against Dark Anakin, Kenobi's Soresu>Dooku's Makashi.

Originally posted by Kotor3
For number two Malak is Revan's student and knew the technique and as I already said went to the same places as Revan. Assumption on your part again. Malak could have picked in the interregnum. Or maybe he did learn it from Revan. Find some sources to back it up.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Three, ok well that needs to be said to many people who post here. Once again though all you have said it you want it to be stated by the writers. Fine you can wait for that but because you do not agree is not reason enough for me to disregard. If you could explain how logically Revan would not know as Elite did in connection to Revan and the Star Forge, then perhaps I could accept. Sources man, sources. That's what it's all about here.

all that going from a level 8 to a level nine swordsman stuff by gilliard is blown out of proportion with statements like "the dark side makes you stronger" no it doesnt

anakin in his mustafar state wasnt any stronger than his "invisible hand state"
dark anakin didnt do anything that light anakin wasnt already capable of
he just let go of restraint which allowed him to do anything he deemed neccisary to win without the jedi code restricting how he behaved in a duel.

someone said that obi wan won because he knew anakin inside and out. that is false. obi wan won because he capitalized on anakin's mistake which is what soresu is designed for. it had nothing to do with how well he knew anakin. ventress and dooku didnt know anakin but they managed to defeat him at times.


now to the fight

we have two scenarios

Scenario A (vader fights dooku and revan fights mace)

Outcome: after a rigorous fight mace uses vaapad and shatter point to wear down revan then cut him down. vader with an unclear head charges at dooku like he did obi wan in Rots only to be met with an incapacitating force lightening to the face, dooku cuts him down.

the second team has won


scenario B: (vader versus mace and revan versus count dooku)

Outcome: with an unfocused mind anakin is easy pickins for the seasoned shatterpoint superconducting loop mace. revan might give dooku a good fight but dooku as a fine swordsman might edge him out, but mace is finished with vader so he goes to help dooku kill revan.

Team two wins again.

either way team two wins

Not saying Kenobi's knowledge of Anakin won him the fight, but no doubt it certainly helped. Speculation much, eh? But justified.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
all that going from a level 8 to a level nine swordsman stuff by gilliard is blown out of proportion with statements like "the dark side makes you stronger" no it doesnt

GL has said that the DS is inherently stronger, at least in the short run. Because GL is still the highest authority we have, we are forced to accept this statement. The lv. 8 to lv. 9 swordsman stuff is helpful because it is a cannon comparison of the best swordsmen of the PT. Even if you ignore GL and Gillard, we can see that the DS makes a Jedi at least momentarily stronger, as shown by Obi Wan flooring Maul, Anakin tooling Dooku on the Invisible Hand, and Luke bashing Darth Vader to the ground. In all of these cases, the DS gave the Jedi a significant, if short lived, boost.


Originally posted by Man of Christ
anakin in his mustafar state wasnt any stronger than his "invisible hand state"
dark anakin didnt do anything that light anakin wasnt already capable of
he just let go of restraint which allowed him to do anything he deemed neccisary to win without the jedi code restricting how he behaved in a duel.

Anakin at Mustafar had made a conscious decision to use the dark side, tapping into all of his strongest emotions. On the Invisible Hand he merely brushed the surface. He removed his restraint, but he didn't actively use the dark side. Light Anakin was getting manhandled by Dooku (in the novel) until Sidious told him to ignore the Jedi Code, brushing up against the dark. After that (according to the novel) the rest was 'details'. Dooku had no chance after Anakin used the DS


Originally posted by Man of Christ
someone said that obi wan won because he knew anakin inside and out. that is false. obi wan won because he capitalized on anakin's mistake which is what soresu is designed for. it had nothing to do with how well he knew anakin. ventress and dooku didnt know anakin but they managed to defeat him at times.

Obi Wan might have won because of his style, but the duel on Mustafar lasted as long as it did because of his familiarity with Anakin. In the movie, they are shown using the same move in succession (Obi kicks Ani, Ani kick Obi etc.) Ventress and Dooku have nothing to do with it. One doesn't need to know their opponent's style with the intimacy Obi Wan did, but Obi Wan and Anakin did know each other, leading to a situation in which they would win in spite of their knowledge, not because of it. Their familiarity caused a stalemate, until Obi broke the stalemate by getting the high ground. When you think about it, that was because he knew Anakin, too. He knew that Ani was brash and headstrong, and rarely stopped to think about tactics. Obi Wan won because of his friendship with anakin. Dooku was simply superior at the time of his victory (AotC). Under no circumstances could AotC Anakin beat Dooku. RotS Anakin DID beat Dooku.

(as for ventress- i'm not really sure who that is- i've read books containing her, but not anything with a substantial duel. The Cestius Deception springs to mind -as a book with no duel- but more info on her would help.)


Originally posted by Man of Christ
now to the fight

we have two scenarios

Scenario A (vader fights dooku and revan fights mace)

Outcome: after a rigorous fight mace uses vaapad and shatter point to wear down revan then cut him down. vader with an unclear head charges at dooku like he did obi wan in Rots only to be met with an incapacitating force lightening to the face, dooku cuts him down.

the second team has won

This is the scenario I think most likely.


Originally posted by Man of Christ
scenario B: (vader versus mace and revan versus count dooku)

Outcome: with an unfocused mind anakin is easy pickins for the seasoned shatterpoint superconducting loop mace. revan might give dooku a good fight but dooku as a fine swordsman might edge him out, but mace is finished with vader so he goes to help dooku kill revan.

Team two wins again.

Could happen, but I don't see Mace leaving Dooku to fend off Revan by himself.

Wait are you guys looking for the quote that says how familiar the Anakin and obiwan were with each other?

Nope, and I just found it. In the Ep. 3 special features disk, during the featurette, It's all for Real, the stunts of Ep. 3, Nick Gillard makes his now famous lv 8 lv 9 quote- here it is, transcribed verbatim:


This suggests that Obi Wan is no longer on the same level as Anakin, as he had embraced the dark side. As such, there must have been some equalizing factor that allowed him to win... enter their familiarity with each others' fighting style, testified to in the RotS novelization, which I do not own. It does say that they were as close as brothers though, which implies a very strong relationship.

Originally posted by Jbill311
Power and skill are connected in Star Wars. The Force is used to hasten attacks and blocks, and even lends some precognition. As Anakin grew in the force, he became a better duelist. Gillard said that Anakin's combat style was 'amped up' to the next level.


Anakin dipped into the dark side of the force to defeat Dooku. Later, he embraced the dark side and became Darth Vader for his fight with Obi Wan.

They did know each other, and that's why the duel lasted so long. Without their connection, I would be willing to bet (don't call me on it- there is absolutely NO proof- but that hasn't stopped you) that Obi Wan wouldn't have beaten Anakin. His knowledge of Ani's fighting style is enough to allow him to hold his own, but not defeat him.


Obi Wan could not have beaten Anakin without his tactical superiority. It is the same situation as Yoda vs. Sidious. I have read that in a flat out fight in the middle of the plains on Naboo ppl think that Yoda would win. We know that Sidious took the tactical advantage, and that made him the better fighter. Put simply, Obi Wan would not have defeated Anakin if not for their relationship, and his tactical maneuvering. Anakin was the better swordsman, but Obi was the better duelist.


I grant you that. I have fixed my mistake and will not repeat it. See that you do the same.

So we do agree that Obi Wan was the better duelist at the time.

Yes Anakin tap into the dark side I guess as expressed in the novel in his fight with Dooku. You don't get the same picture from the movie. Either way Anakin's state of mind was controlled and level headed. Had to mention again sense you seem to keep forgetting that factor.

Question though, how was the fight between Dooku and Anakin long? It was quite short and disappointing to me. I believe the whole fight scene from start to finish including scenes with Obi Wan lasted about 5 minutes altogether in the movies.

Originally posted by Jbill311
?


I never disagreed, the only point of contention was the amount of aid he received from knowing Anakin. Anakin is unquestionably the better swordsman though.


The fight isn't very long, but I never said it was. The novelization is a lot better, i think, than the movie in this instance.

My mistake, you never did say that. I did not read correctly.

As for the question mark the only way I can explain again is to say that Anakin was already arrogant. Turning to the dark side took his arrogance to a new level. Thus he became over confident and not a smart fighter.

You can use Foreman vs Ali fight as an example.

The question mark refers to the blatant contradiction between the two posts. In one:

You claim that Anakin 'was not level headed'.

In the next, you claim:

'Anakin's state of mind was controlled and level headed.' If you don't see the contradiction then there is no talking to you. You completely changed positions.

Originally posted by Jbill311
The question mark refers to the blatant contradiction between the two posts. In one:

You claim that Anakin 'was not level headed'.

In the next, you claim:

'Anakin's state of mind was controlled and level headed.' If you don't see the contradiction then there is no talking to you. You completely changed positions.

If you were actually reading my post and following my line of thought it would be clear to you that I am not contradicting myself. Obviously you are not.

We are taking about one fight in which the light user as Obi Wan did against Maul tap into the dark side but was level headed and had controlled as shown in the fight scene between Anakin and Dooku.

*The movie gave no indication that Anakin had tap into the dark side. I am excepting your statement since you want to use the novel. Either way it does not change that Anakin was focus during that fight (between him and Dooku), but he only tap into the dark side.

Big difference between tapping in and giving yourself over to the dark side. Do you understand?

Anakin was never focus when he gave himself over to the dark side. Never!!! His attitude and bad attributes were amplified and change the type of fighter he was. Also Anakin was never trained in the dark side to so as to focus his dark energies. His emotions and everything us were running wild and uncontrolled.

This was the biggest advantage for Obi Wan!

Obi Wan new Anakin and Anakin new him just as well, so the two cancel each other. What other factors come into play. Environments and mental state, which is what made Obi Wan the better duelist. This is really not that hard to understand.

Originally posted by Kotor3
If you were actually reading my post and following my line of thought it would be clear to you that I am not contradicting myself. Obviously you are not.
Both of your statements were regarding ANAKIN as he used the dark side. You said that he was level headed as a Dark Sider, and that he was not. Your statements and positions are not consistent.

Originally posted by Kotor3
We are taking about one fight in which the light user as Obi Wan did against Maul tap into the dark side but was level headed and had controlled as shown in the fight scene between Anakin and Dooku.

I haven't been talking about Maul for quite some time. Obi Wan as a lightsider was level headed but we aren't talking about Obi Wan either. Anakin is the issue here.


Originally posted by Kotor3
*The movie gave no indication that Anakin had tap into the dark side. I am excepting your statement since you want to use the novel. Either way it does not change that Anakin was focus during that fight (between him and Dooku), but he only tap into the dark side.
1. focused. tapped. PLEASE conjugate your verbs.
2. As best as I can understand, your current position is that Anakin tapped into the dark side for the fight on the Invisible Hand, but remained focused (levelheaded). Later, when he intentionally used the darkside after ascending as Darth Vader, he lost his focus (levelheadedness).
3. As long as the Novel does not contradict the movie it IS cannon.
4. The problem with (2.) is that in order to defeat Dooku, Anakin "removed the walls around his heart". He relinquished his jedi restraint in order to kill Tyrranus. The fact that the duel didn't last long enough to make a fatal mistake is irrelevant, he wasn't thinking clearly, as under his value system (the Jedi Code) taking the count's life was a wrong choice. He even says "I should not have done that", clearly expressing remorse for the kill. He was rash and made a hasty decision then, just like on the hill with Obi Wan that cost him all of his legs and arms.


Originally posted by Kotor3
Big difference between tapping in and giving yourself over to the dark side. Do you understand?
YES I DO! There is a difference between losing control and giving yourself over to the DS. On the IH he lost control, and the darkside took his actions too far (killing Dooku.) On Mustafar, he had sworn himself to the DS, and was intentionally- I hesitate to say intelligently- using the darkside. Using a loaded gun and accidentally killing your opponent is a lot less effective than picking up a gun with the intent to kill.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Anakin was never focus{ED} when he gave himself over to the dark side. Never!!! His attitude and bad attributes were amplified and change the type of fighter he was. Also Anakin was never trained in the dark side to so as to focus his dark energies. His emotions and everything us were running wild and uncontrolled.

This was the biggest advantage for Obi Wan!
Killing the troll, Separatist Leaders and nearly stalemating Master Kenobi don't happen by mistake. He has to have been paying attention. Yes Anakin was more aggressive, but in a saber fight that isn't a bad thing. As far as having an older (MUCH older) wife, whiny personality, and mood swings, I just don't see how they could affect his fighting performance. He could even have used the rage caused by Padme's betrayal to fuel the "furnace" in his heart.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Obi Wan new Anakin and Anakin new him just as well, so the two cancel each other. What other factors come into play. Environments and mental state, which is what made Obi Wan the better duelist. This is really not that hard to understand.

Yes Kenobi's tactics make him the better duelist, but Anakin is simply the better fighter. Kenobi's knowledge of Anakin's style prolonged the conflict for superior tactics to come into play. Mental state and environment helped, but this seems like a cop out- If Anakin had known this, or felt differently about this, etc. then he would have won. I think that this is the Any given Sunday 'clause' and it doesn't seem appropriate.

Anakin was in complete control of the duel until Obi Wan baited him into a trap. This does not show a shortcoming of Anakin's mental state, it shows that Kenobi is the superior tactician.

Originally posted by Jbill311
I count the Mustafar battle as a win for Obi Wan, as he still has all of his arms and legs. In a different setting, the fight might have turned out differently.
I am in fact telling you that Anakin had the same control (see that, in this sentence, the second verb 'control' remains in the infinitive, because the first verb 'to have' has already been conjugated to 'had') When he killed Dooku, he was out of controll. When he fought Kenobi, Anakin was in better control of his actions. Was he angry? Yes. This would have helped his fighting style, until he made a mistake.

'Tapping' is nearly always a mistake, and is brought on by a momentary loss of control. Giving yourself to the dark side is an intentional, willful embrace of the power of the DS.
Anakin would not have listened to Sidious had he not used the dark side to defeat Dooku. It simply wasn't something he could do. Mace would say: "It's not in his character", but things change when the DS is involved. It supplanted his inhibitions and conditioning to allow him to kill a prisoner in cold blood.

He was pretty arrogant, but that does not drive him insane. It's possible to be a cocky idiot, but still be the best at what you do. (like Ani.) He nearly regained his senses in the Dooku matter, but Sidious had a vested interest in pushing him closer to the Dark Side. The chancellor would have been thrilled that he had come this close to falling already.

The post that I called you on occurred at 9:29 in the evening, hardly the middle of the night.


If you want I can proof-read your posts for you.

I see you have become a teacher of grammar good you should start applying that to your logic. You are helping my argument more and more. All jokes aside I do appreciate corrections to my grammar.

Jbill311: 'Tapping' is nearly always a mistake, and is brought on by a momentary loss of control. Giving yourself to the dark side is an intentional, willful embrace of the power of the DS.

Your statement is true for a Jedi. A Jedi should never lose control. Any spark of anger for a Jedi is considered a dark side emotion. Now let us break down the statement so we can apply properly.

To become angry does not mean that you will lose focus or controlled of your mental state. There is a thing called righteous indignation.

Righteous indignation is an emotion one feels when one becomes angry over perceived mistreatment, insult, or malice. It is akin to what is called the sense of injustice.

Anakin in his fight with Dooku became angry due to what happen to Obi Wan and he was not going to lose again to Dooku. Anakin was focus on wining and saving Obi Wan and the chancellor. Anakin definitely had a right to become emotionally angered. He focused that emotion on Dooku.

Now, becoming angry and being engulfed in anger constantly is quite different. Anakin willing gave in to his dark emotions and was engulfed in them. Did Anakin fully understand was this would mean? No he was only thinking about his wife. Sidious never trained him in any dark side techniques or how to focus and control his dark energies.

It is impossible to say that Anakin was in better shape in his fight with Dooku than he was when he fought Obi Wan. His emotions and state of mind was not only different but more importantly his reasons. In his fight with Dooku he was trying to save two lives. In his fight with Obi Wan it was out of pure anger and frustration. Big Difference!

I borrowed the book from the library. I'll post tomorrow.

I should probably just let this die...

Originally posted by Kotor3
I see you have become a teacher of grammar good you should start applying that to your logic. You are helping my argument more and more. All jokes aside I do appreciate corrections to my grammar.

Jbill311: 'Tapping' is nearly always a mistake, and is brought on by a momentary loss of control. Giving yourself to the dark side is an intentional, willful embrace of the power of the DS.

Your statement is true for a Jedi. A Jedi should never lose control. Any spark of anger for a Jedi is considered a dark side emotion. Now let us break down the statement so we can apply properly.

To become angry does not mean that you will lose focus or controlled of your mental state. There is a thing called righteous indignation.

Righteous indignation is an emotion one feels when one becomes angry over perceived mistreatment, insult, or malice. It is akin to what is called the sense of injustice.

Anakin in his fight with Dooku became angry due to what happen to Obi Wan and he was not going to lose again to Dooku. Anakin was focus on wining and saving Obi Wan and the chancellor. Anakin definitely had a right to become emotionally angered. He focused that emotion on Dooku.
In the novelization, Anakin is described as being terrified. He uses his fear as fuel for his anger.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Now, becoming angry and being engulfed in anger constantly is quite different. Anakin willing gave in to his dark emotions and was engulfed in them. Did Anakin fully understand was this would mean? No he was only thinking about his wife. Sidious never trained him in any dark side techniques or how to focus and control his dark energies.
I wasn't aware that anyone ever needed training to use their emotions to power the darkside. Even Luke could do it after only a few years as a Force user in ROTJ.
Originally posted by Kotor3
It is impossible to say that Anakin was in better shape in his fight with Dooku than he was when he fought Obi Wan. His emotions and state of mind was not only different but more importantly his reasons. In his fight with Dooku he was trying to save two lives. In his fight with Obi Wan it was out of pure anger and frustration. Big Difference!
He was determined to defeat Dooku, yes, but against Kenobi he had his sense of outrage that Padme had 'betrayed' him, and his conviction that Obi Wan was evil. His resolve was no less in either battle.

in the RotS novelization, Dooku notes that Anakin 'Had the gift of Fury'. He used his emotions to fuel his fighting, and even with Dooku he was winning while holding back. Dooku psyches him out by telling him that he's afraid, and Anakin looses his nerve. Palpatine's intervention re-established Anakin's rage (his groove) and He stops holding back. That's when the count looses. With that level of instinctive ability, isn't it remotely possible that when he intentionally 'allowed the furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical?' When he uses the DS on Mustafar, uses Fury intentionally, which nets much better results. He already used a DS technique (using his emotions to help him fight) so when he frees his emotions, wouldn't that increase his power?

that's the whole of my reasoning for the similarity and increased power level of DS Anakin and 'Tapped' Anakin. If you can understand it (which is hard enough- I did start to rant) and convince me otherwise, I will drop the debate. The term control that seems to have muddied the issue I originally intended to mean control over his own emotions.

Jbill311 I understand your statement and I see what you are saying. There is a point you are missing and I will try to give you an example to help you to see the point I am making.

There is not one powerful dark side user that I know that was not trained in the dark side. One uses dark side energies (these being emotions such as anger, fear, etc) to focus them into powerful and deadly attacks. This is more than just a boost to ones current state such as tapping into the dark side.

Exar Kun as a light user tapped into the dark side to escape being trapped under a large pile of rocks after a cave-in occurred. His pride and ambition overwhelming him, Kun refused to accept death, calling upon his rage and hatred to fuel the dark side within, temporarily escaping his fate. Please note Exar Kun had not fully changed at this time.

Once he embrace the dark side fully he became a totally different person. One thing of note, he received training in the dark side. His force abilities even style of fighting changed.
Let us look at Anakin. Anakin used the dark side against Dooku and won.
Did he change as a person? No.
Was he focused when he fought Dooku? Yes, he had two lives to save.

Anakin vs Obi Wan:
At this time Anakin had already embrace in full the dark side. He had changed as a person. Please note that Anakin had not yet been trained by Sidious in the dark side. Nothing changed about his style of fighting or his force abilities. What did change was the type of person he was which would affect him as a duelist.

As was stated in previous post of ours Anakin reasons for fighting Obi Wan were different from his reasons for fighting Dooku.

Here is the point, Anakin as a light user whether he tapped in the dark side or did not was a more focused and controlled duelist who used his training and power to his advantage with engaging in a duel or battle. As a dark user of the force Anakin was not a controlled or a focus duelist because he was no longer the same person and rely purely on his emotions to over power an opponent.

Even the movies depict this well in the way Anakin fights Dooku in comparison to the way he engages Obi Wan.

If Anakin had received any type of training from Sidious for any length of time he mostly likely would have destroyed Obi Wan.