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I know I am going thread crazy. I may take a break for a while.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I know I am going thread crazy. I may take a break for a while.

Probably Yoda and Windu. In a Force contest, though, they lose. Badly.

Yea, but even in an all out battle they wouldn't be within saber length so Sidious could still just fire off force attacks.

Does M V adversely affect Jedi, or only boost darksiders?

EDIT

I'm pretty sure Malachor only boosts Dark Side users, rather than harming/dampening Light users.

Sabers: Team.
Force: Sidious.
All-out: Probably Sidious.

I can't see the team getting close enough to Sidious without him sensing it first. Plus he's fast enough (the whole, blur thing) to create space. Then it's just Force Lightning/Storm...

Mace might martyr himself to the Force lightning spam so that Yoda can get close enough to engage Sidious with a saber, and I really want to just default this to the team... but Sidious has to take this.

Is DE Sidious really that powerful to take both? How much more powerful is DE Sidious vs ROTS Sidious?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Is DE Sidious really that powerful to take both? How much more powerful is DE Sidious vs ROTS Sidious?

Both are pretty hardcore. But only one can wipe out fleets.

Originally posted by Gideon
Both are pretty hardcore. But only one can wipe out fleets.

ROTS Sidious cannot take Mace and Yoda together. They would destroy ROTS Sidious in no time. If DE Sidious is not exceed ROTS Sidious by a large amount then I do not see how he would be able to take Yoda and Mace even on Malachor V.

Originally posted by Kotor3
ROTS Sidious cannot take Mace and Yoda together. They would destroy ROTS Sidious in no time. If DE Sidious is not exceed ROTS Sidious by a large amount then I do not see how he would be able to take Yoda and Mace even on Malachor V. He didn't say that DE Sidious does not exceed his ROTS counterpart by much, now did he?

By Dark Empire, Sidious can wipe out an entire fleet. What does that tell you about his power?

Originally posted by Gideon
Probably Yoda and Windu. In a Force contest, though, they lose. Badly.
I agree competely.

Originally posted by Kotor3
ROTS Sidious cannot take Mace and Yoda together. They would destroy ROTS Sidious in no time. If DE Sidious is not exceed ROTS Sidious by a large amount then I do not see how he would be able to take Yoda and Mace even on Malachor V.

I am in awe of your sudden inability to comprehend simple words. I said that both are pretty hardcore, but only one can destroy fleets. For those of us void of common sense: that means that, while both are very powerful, Palpatine circa Dark Empire is capable of destroying fleets with the Force. Conclusion? Palpatine's a lot more powerful in DE.

hmmmm yoda and mace wud burn his ass

Originally posted by darthyoda23
hmmmm yoda and mace wud burn his ass

And you've come to that conclusion based on...?

Originally posted by Gideon
I am in awe of your sudden inability to comprehend simple words. I said that both are pretty hardcore, but only one can destroy fleets. For those of us void of common sense: that means that, while both are very powerful, Palpatine circa Dark Empire is capable of destroying fleets with the Force. Conclusion? Palpatine's a lot more powerful in DE.

Well I am in awe of you inability to give good explainations. Really you mean to tell me that is the only difference between the two?

Shadow could make stars supernova was that through pure force ability? Don't worry I do not need you to give me anymore explainations.

According to my knowledge DE Sidious could do things through pure force ability. A separation between him and other siths before him.

His explanations are perfectly clear, Kotor3. And, yeah, a separation which undoubtedly makes DE Sidious the No. 1 Sith Lord in history, by far.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Well I am in awe of you inability to give good explainations. Really you mean to tell me that is the only difference between the two?

LOL. I thought it would have been very clear. Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith is already established as the most powerful Sith Lord in history, an incredibly gifted combatant, and with an unimaginable command of the Force; Palpatine circa Dark Empire has had the benefit of more than twenty years of further study in all aspects of the Force -- he has mastered all of the previously known techniques, previously unknown techniques, and devises new ones at his pleasure (Dark Empire Sourcebook) -- and is capable of using the Force to destroy fleets of ships each capable of resisting gigatons of damage. What conclusion would anyone draw? Palpatine is a great deal superior to his previous incarnation in hard feats.



Naga Sadow relied on alchemy, Sith arcana, and his Force-imbuing flagship. Palpatine performed all of his feats without aid.



Correct. Which makes your earlier statement and subsequent insult rather inept.

Originally posted by Gideon
LOL. I thought it would have been very clear. Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith is already established as the most powerful Sith Lord in history, an incredibly gifted combatant, and with an unimaginable command of the Force; Palpatine circa Dark Empire has had the benefit of more than twenty years of further study in all aspects of the Force -- he has mastered all of the previously known techniques, previously unknown techniques, and devises new ones at his pleasure (Dark Empire Sourcebook) -- and is capable of using the Force to destroy fleets of ships each capable of resisting gigatons of damage. What conclusion would anyone draw? Palpatine is a great deal superior to his previous incarnation in hard feats.

Naga Sadow relied on alchemy, Sith arcana, and his Force-imbuing flagship. Palpatine performed all of his feats without aid.

Correct. Which makes your earlier statement and subsequent insult rather inept.

First thing is wasn't an insult it was the truth. His explaination was not clear.

I thought it would have been very clear.
Well next time before you throw an insult don't thing someone already has the knowlege or knows what you are talking about. There is a saying there is no stupid questions just stupid answers.

Your answer above is much more clear. Thx

Originally posted by Gideon
he has mastered all of the previously known techniques, previously unknown techniques, and devises new ones at his pleasure (Dark Empire Sourcebook)

WTH? Are you sure about that? If I recall correctly, the quote had said that "it is believed" or something to that effect - not that he actually has.

Originally posted by Advent
WTH? Are you sure about that? If I recall correctly, the quote had said that "it is believed" or something to that effect - not that he actually has.

The Dark Empire Sourcebook is no longer accessible to me (thank LS). I simply go off of the numerous discussions at SD.net. It seems to be confirmed, since he's also stated as the person who has "embraced the dark side fully" (LoE) and mastered a shitload of arcane Force techniques from a very long list of cults, groups, and factions.

In addition, I found this:

I wouldn't say that that necessarily indicates he had completely mastered all abilities ever created in the SW mythos. It's rather apparent he possessed a plethora of knowledge, but having access to every technique is a bit silly; you have to factor in the amount of lore would've been lost or destroyed or kept hidden over the millennia.

And indeed, I just checked page 38 of the DE Sourcebook, which states that it is was only "believed".

Originally posted by Advent
I wouldn't say that that necessarily indicates he had completely mastered all abilities ever created in the SW mythos. It's rather apparent he possessed a plethora of knowledge, but having access to every technique is a bit silly; you have to factor in the amount of lore would've been lost or destroyed or kept hidden over the millennia.

Perhaps, but as I attempted to explain to Janus and Illustrious in years past, the idea that knowledge (like technology) hasn't progressed over the years is rather inept; they believed that the Ancient Sith would have had the greatest cache of Sith and dark side knowledge, and in subsequent years, it would have grown stagnant and sparse.



Still, that statement is corroborated by the ones I have taken from Publius. In addition, Palpatine has access and mastery to the techniques inscribed within the Telos Holocron. All in all, it's very evident that Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is the greatest and most all encompassing in the saga.

I don't want to be 'that guy', but isn't Jacen (Caedus) a runner up for force mastery?

No. As far as force mastery is concerned, Bane's ability to manipulate the Force on the subatomic level is the greatest display of control there's ever been by about a mile.

Originally posted by Jbill311
I don't want to be 'that guy', but isn't Jacen (Caedus) a runner up for force mastery?

He is one of the best but not runner up. He certainly has a broader knowledge of the force then most jedi or sith because he trained with other force groups for 5 years and certainly has abilities like flow walking that most character don't have. But there are few that could be ahead of him.

Originally posted by Jbill311
I don't want to be 'that guy', but isn't Jacen (Caedus) a runner up for force mastery?

Darth Caedus is among the very best. He has demonstrated a wide range and mastery of Force techniques, including the shatterpoint charism, the ability to stifle the Force in others, and flow-walking. Emperor Palpatine's mastery of the Force, however, is the greatest we've seen.

Originally posted by Gideon
Perhaps, but as I attempted to explain to Janus and Illustrious in years past, the idea that knowledge (like technology) hasn't progressed over the years is rather inept; they believed that the Ancient Sith would have had the greatest cache of Sith and dark side knowledge, and in subsequent years, it would have grown stagnant and sparse.

"They"? Who exactly are you referring to? The generations of Sith to come? And anyways, yes, knowledge would've progressed, but there are some things that just likely couldn't have been passed on or survived throughout the ages.



That's a good point, but still you would have to assume that he somehow had access to records that were destroyed, lost, and/or otherwise kept hidden (which means that every single secret in the mythos was preserved for millennia; something highly unlikely). You have to remember that Sidious only could have gained what was available at his time. It's a stretch to say everything was or even if that's the case, that he found it all.

What I'm saying is that it's rather improbable Sidious would've known every last Force ability. Especially when the DE Sourcebook is over a decade old; so much new lore has been introduced since then, it would be asinine to say he got his hands on it all. Even Exar Kun's dark side knowledge was stated to have died with him (stated in the JA Sourcebook, which - if anything - would trump the DE Sourcebook).

Originally posted by Advent
"They"? Who exactly are you referring to? The generations of Sith to come? And anyways, yes, knowledge would've progressed, but there are some things that just likely couldn't have been passed on or survived throughout the ages.

"They" being Illustrious, Janus, ect.



What exactly is the statement regarding Exar Kun's dark side knowledge? All that he learned from Naga Sadow is available to Palpatine. Still, I suppose my overall point is that Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is the greatest and broadest we have seen in canon. Which it is.

Edit: I know this really isn't an articulate response, Advent, but it's late and I feel like shit, lol.

Originally posted by Advent


"They"? Who exactly are you referring to? The generations of Sith to come? And anyways, yes, knowledge would've progressed, but there are some things that just likely couldn't have been passed on or survived throughout the ages.
I think the 'they' was Janus and Illustrious. And things such as? Given the number of Sith Holocrons brought in constantly and created by later Sith, it'd seem far less was lost than was originally thought



What was available to him was apparently pretty extensive. He had Bane's Holocron by ROTS, consisting of Belia Darzu's, Freedon Nadd's and by extension Naga Sadow's and Revan's, very likely Andeddu's and Nihilus's, access to the spirits of Korriban, and probably a significant amount of others. By Complete Locations, many 'art' pieces in his office are really Sith artifacts and the like and he'[s spent a long time acquiring things of the nature...given his age by AOTC, even, his collection could be extensive.

All? Probably not. A very vast deal of it? Another story

It died with him then, sure, but Jedi vs. Sith seemed to introduce that Palpatine was aware of Kun's knpowledge given that he'd have learned Sadow's knowledge via either other Holocrons, Bane's Holocron, etc.
And it doesn't seem to just be referencing alchemical knowledge, either, given mention of Nadd. It's a bit unfair to say that the DE sourcebook is out of date there, but not the JA Sourcebook which is also pretty dated.

Originally posted by Advent
Ah, I see. It would appear I need to get some rest then, sorry.



As according to the Jedi Academy Sourcebook, page 50:

"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun...(keep in mind, even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know of the Sith powers)"
That seems to be 'Sith teachings.'...full stop. For a while the Sith went extinct after Kun. KOTOR changed that



Well, we know Palpatine excavated Yavin and had been there himself. Moreover, Freedon recording his knowledge would mean he was recording Sadow's info. Given that Nadd had access to those private notes and a living breathing Sadow...



Given Revan and Nihilus's knowledge that definitely fell into Palpatine's hands, it would seem some teachings at least from Malachor V survived



Potentially, that's true


Quite true. but it does help to have access to people who aren't alive



Yep. Though there are some nitpicks




One of Bane's holocrons was Nadd's. Nadd has some advantages over Exar, teaching wise, with access to all he had, plus more, if he took some of what Sadow had to Onderon. And Sadow himself before he killed him.



I didn't say that. Just that it's absurd to think Palpatine is speaking only in terms of alychemy

I didn't say that...Nadd clearly inherited Sadow's knowledge as well, which would lead to Palpatine knowing it eventually would be my point, if he didn't learn it elsewhere. Palpatine did pretty much say he was in possession of Sadow's knowledge on the Telos Holocron



Exactly my point. We know the Sith teachings did not die with Kun now and persisted for quite some time-even shortly after Kun's death, the Sith Academy was open.

He actually speaks the truth.

Star Wars: Darth Bane: Rule of Two, Page 103:

"Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as an apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side. As his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed all his knowledge and teachings, transferring them into the Holocron before murdering Sadow and taking his place."

Originally posted by Taven
He actually speaks the truth.

Star Wars: Darth Bane: Rule of Two, Page 103:

"Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as an apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side. As his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed all his knowledge and teachings, transferring them into the Holocron before murdering Sadow and taking his place."

What species was Nadd?

Human.

But yeah, knowledge is definitely one area I would given Palpatine mad ratings in. He possesses all of Revan and Sadow's knowledge, the holocrons of Andeddu and Belia Darzhu, numerous other Sith sources of knowledge that the RoT Order had been gathering for an entire millennium, and later on of course he begins creating his own techniques, and that's not even taking into account all of his arcane learnings from the numerous Force Using races and organisations throughout the Galaxy that he encountered. As far as knowledge goes, he's #1 by a good margin.

Originally posted by Taven
Human.

But yeah, knowledge is definitely one area I would given Palpatine mad ratings in. He possesses all of Revan and Sadow's knowledge, the holocrons of Andeddu and Belia Darzhu, numerous other Sith sources of knowledge that the RoT Order had been gathering for an entire millennium, and later on of course he begins creating his own techniques, and that's not even taking into account all of his arcane learnings from the numerous Force Using races and organisations throughout the Galaxy that he encountered. As far as knowledge goes, he's #1 by a good margin.

Does Nadd appear in RoT?

He's mentioned as Bane first uncovers the holocron but aside from that no. Why you so curious by the way lol?

Originally posted by Taven
He's mentioned as Bane first uncovers the holocron but aside from that no. Why you so curious by the way lol?

Because Nadd's interesting and I haven't read RoT.

Cool cool, no worries, you may continue firing off question after question about Nadd lol.

Originally posted by Taven
Cool cool, no worries, you may continue firing off question after question about Nadd lol.

Height?

Originally posted by Gideon
"They" being Illustrious, Janus, ect.



What exactly is the statement regarding Exar Kun's dark side knowledge? All that he learned from Naga Sadow is available to Palpatine. Still, I suppose my overall point is that Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is the greatest and broadest we have seen in canon. Which it is.

Edit: I know this really isn't an articulate response, Advent, but it's late and I feel like shit, lol.

Illustrious was a woman right?

Originally posted by Taven
Illustrious was a woman right?

As far as I knew, he was male. Traya, as it turns out, is a man. She lied about her gender.

LOL WTF? On a serious note, is that actually for real? Traya's a man? LMAO. That's... arguably the funniest thing I've ever heard on here. Seriously though, when did that even come to people's attention?

Originally posted by Taven
LOL WTF? On a serious note, is that actually for real? Traya's a man? LMAO. That's... arguably the funniest thing I've ever heard on here. Seriously though, when did that even come to people's attention?

I'm not joking, no. Sorgo stumbled upon her Facebook and it was registered to a man, Bradley-Howitt or some such. He made a thread about it back on EoD, and when I found out, I confronted her about it and she vanished.

EoD's annoying. Won't let me enter Sorgo's profile. But yeah if that's actually true that's hilarious lol, and a little strange.

Originally posted by Taven
EoD's annoying. Won't let me enter Sorgo's profile. But yeah if that's actually true that's hilarious lol, and a little strange.

More than a little. And the way I look at it is this: Traya was active on EoD and MSN and other places until her/his/it's "secret" was busted. Nothing screams guilt like fleeing. Moreover, I don't see why a person would impersonate someone of the other gender. That shit would have Freud going "WTF?"

Her name's Bradley? OK, it would at least be somewhat excusable if she had a feminine name or a cross gender name or something but Bradley? That's as manly a name as they come. This is inexcusable.

Originally posted by Taven
Her name's Bradley? OK, it would at least be somewhat excusable if she had a feminine name or a cross gender name or something but Bradley? That's as manly a name as they come. This is inexcusable.

It would appear that he/she is long gone, anyways.