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If Mace loses than they take on Yoda.

The superconducting loop wouldn't apply, but Mace is still darn good. If Kenobi goes into overload on defense, that leaves Anakin to fight a tired out mace. I'm cautiously going to give this to the team.

Originally posted by Jbill311
The superconducting loop wouldn't apply, but Mace is still darn good. If Kenobi goes into overload on defense, that leaves Anakin to fight a tired out mace. I'm cautiously going to give this to the team.

The team barely beat Dooku and I think Mace is above Dooku. If Dooku could come close to doing so and his defeat to Anakin is already looked at with much skepticism. I pretty sure Mace could pull off a win.

I do not see Dooku putting Sidious on the floor.

Originally posted by Kotor3
The team barely beat Dooku and I think Mace is above Dooku. If Dooku could come close to doing so and his defeat to Anakin is already looked at with much skepticism. I pretty sure Mace could pull off a win.

I do not see Dooku putting Sidious on the floor. It's not always about "he beat him, so they can't beat him." Dooku and Mace are quite close, and Mace's Vapaad wouldn't do anything for him here.

Originally posted by Tangible God
It's not always about "he beat him, so they can't beat him." Dooku and Mace are quite close, and Mace's Vapaad wouldn't do anything for him here.

Who would you give the win to?

Anakin and Obi Wan would crush Mace, both individually have a chance at beating Mace (Anakin much more-so). Dooku was forced to use the force/droids/distractions to stop the duo from massacring him together. Mace is nowhere near as skilled as Dooku with the force so that stops him from seperating the team. His Vaapad is nearly useless against Kenobi's defense, combined with Anakin's onslaught dynamic duo will make short work of Windu.

mace takes this, obi wan cant block shatterpoint

anakin is too stupid mace takes him apart,


scenario:mace force crushes obi wan giving him a heart attack then dismantles anakin in about 5 minutes

outcome:mace wins>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>team

Cute, and you always rag on me for poor contribution to your threads.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Cute, and you always rag on me for poor contribution to your threads.

no time for insults. if you disagree i hope you are smart enough to articulate why

Originally posted by Dr. Styles
Anakin and Obi Wan would crush Mace, both individually have a chance at beating Mace (Anakin much more-so). Dooku was forced to use the force/droids/distractions to stop the duo from massacring him together. Mace is nowhere near as skilled as Dooku with the force so that stops him from seperating the team. His Vaapad is nearly useless against Kenobi's defense, combined with Anakin's onslaught dynamic duo will make short work of Windu.

I do not know that many of Mace's feats but your statement is true about Dooku using many distractions. Did not think of that before. But I do not think that Obi Wan and Anakin will take out Mace quickly.

Also how skilled is Mace with the force? I always looked at him as powerful and very skilled. Is Dooku that much better?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
mace takes this, obi wan cant block shatterpoint


First off there is a difference from finding one's shatterpoint and being able to exploit it especially with more than one oppenent.


Lol nice argument, I counter with tell that to Dooku or Cin Drallig.




Scenario: Obiwan and Anakin double team Mace who uses his saber much more then he uses the force so they take him in lightsaber combat. Mace's force crush can be be countered and his biggest advantage (vapaad) is negated. The team is close to Mace's saber skills to begin with and Mace isn't noted to be a force powerhouse. Therefore he loses.

Mace dies painfully. Seriously- defeating either one of them in individual combat would require difficulty, when you factor in both of them... it's rather difficult to imagine a situation where Mace would win.

That being said, though, he may be capable of killing one of them before he goes down.

Probably Obi-Wan. His Soresu won't hold forever.

So far is seems that Mace has no chance. Don't forget about Yoda. If they beat Mace they go against Yoda.

Yoda's a different story. I'm no expert on him, but I'd give it to him for some reason.

Mace can beat either one of them individually with fair ease, but he loses to them two on one. They then proceed to get crushed by Yoda.

Didn't Yoda fight Mace and someone else at the same time and manage to beat both of them?

And what has Dooku done that puts him above Mace in the force, btw.

Originally posted by Kotor3
The team barely beat Dooku

Excuse me? 'Barely beat Dooku'? Anakin alone wiped the floor with him. Did you miss the part where he gets destroyed?

And, nobody ever said Dooku was a match for his master.

Originally posted by fatgogeta
Mace can beat either one of them individually with fair ease, but he loses to them two on one.

Not necessarily. In ROTS, Anakin and Obi-Wan were having a much harder time with him while working together; it was only after Dooku disposed of Kenobi when Anakin was able to defeat him. They do not necessarily fight better when they're together.

They weren't exactly having hard time, they were crushing Dooku together, hence the need for the distractions/the force. Dooku couldn't even pierce Kenobi's defense.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Excuse me? 'Barely beat Dooku'? Anakin alone wiped the floor with him. Did you miss the part where he gets destroyed?

And, nobody ever said Dooku was a match for his master.



Not necessarily. In ROTS, Anakin and Obi-Wan were having a much harder time with him while working together; it was only after Dooku disposed of Kenobi when Anakin was able to defeat him. They do not necessarily fight better when they're together.

The "struggling" was explained in the book as a distraction, with the two Jedi using styles that they were unused to. Obi Wan does not start with soreseu, at least in the book. As they are shown using flips (ataru) in the movie, the Book isn't contradicting anything, so it is cannon in this case. It was only after Dooku disposed of Kenobi that Anakin needed to use his true form. (ushering in the age of pwn-zor 1!!!!11!!1!!!!0)

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
First off there is a difference from finding one's shatterpoint and being able to exploit it especially with more than one oppenent.


Lol nice argument, I counter with tell that to Dooku or Cin Drallig.




Scenario: Obiwan and Anakin double team Mace who uses his saber much more then he uses the force so they take him in lightsaber combat. Mace's force crush can be be countered and his biggest advantage (vapaad) is negated. The team is close to Mace's saber skills to begin with and Mace isn't noted to be a force powerhouse. Therefore he loses.


1) dooku and drallig are not in league with mace, especially considering that mace is next only to yoda in rank in the jedi order and that you have to be either mace or yoda to compete with the emperor, not mace, drallig or yoda, so i think GL makes it pretty clear that mace is on par with siddious which logically puts him above drallig and dooku. nuff said there

2) scenario: sicnce obi wan hasnt shown much of a propensity to counter offensive force attacks, such as the way dooku rag dolled him with the force in ROTS, we have no reason to think he would be able to counter a force crush which gives him a heart attack.

anakin is a good swordsman but hasnt studied vaapad which mace kows which gives mace the advantage. i say mace stays calms and takes him apart in about 5 minutes.

3) you say mace isnt a force powerhouse, i urge you to watch the clone wars'

outcome: mace has to work but emerges victorious

In my other thread between Mace and Obi Wan, everyone there states that Mace mops the floor with Obi Wan. Anakin I do not believe will would give Mace any problems in a one on one fight and we have the fact that the team has never shown themselves to work good together.

I think Mace has a good chance in defeating them. However, I do with agree with Man of Christ as to Mace being a powerhouse in the force department.

No one has really explain why Dooku with be more better with the force than Mace.

Ah...nay.


They are very much in Mace's league, Dooku for one was viewed as "One of the greatest Jedi in its 25,000 year history" and even a "Greater Sith Lord." (ROTS Novelization) He is a man who has completely mastered the lightsaber, whom managed to duel with Yoda. Who in fact dueled Mace Windu to a stand still (Obsessions). Doubly he has FAR more force power then Mace Windu. Cin Drallig himeself was a complete master of the lightsaber, whom would also give Mace a far good duel had they ever fight.

I'm sorry kiddo but the Clone Wars feats are purposely exaggerated and cannot be taken as fact, as Mace for one, could he perform all these ridicules moves why didn't he destroy all those droids on Geonosis, he would have saved the slaughter of some 200 Jedi. Furthermore its inconsistent with his power portrayal in the novel Shatterpoint where he whines about his lack of ability in the force. Where he could even lift a land crawler with the force. Not to mention was completely overpowered by Kar Vastor in the force. And the novel over rides a cartoon which purposely exaggerates Mace's power beyond belief.




I'm sorry but rank and power are not in correlation, as its not dictated by "who beats who in a fight" or "whos stronger then who" as if that was then Anakin should have his spot and be encroaching on Yoda's spot in the Jedi order



Acoording to who? Nick Gillard? Um who gives a flying f*ck what Nick Gillard thinks. He's a stunt/sword fight coordinator, he's not George Lucas and he is not a representative of LFL, and those stupid power levels have never been endorsed or supported in any other medium by LFL. So ah no moron. Not to say that Drallig anyways as the force comes into play and he's decimate Drallig with the force. However someone like Anakin Skywalker could go toe to toe with Sidious, as well as Dooku, Dooku would in all likely hood die, but both can still compete with him.




A>B so A>C = FAIL.



Nuff said that your a doofus.



Nay.

Mace crushing Grievous chest is not an impressive feat, as you know: Grievous is not force sensitive, and can't counter force attacks. Lets see Mace do that to a force user, oh wait...



Anakin is "the strongest, fastest, most powerful Jedi of his generation perhaps of any generation" (ROTS Novel) He managed to crush Count Dooku in 12 seconds a feat not even Yoda can lay claim too, he managed to turn Dooku's lightsaber mastery, force power, knowledge of the force, and vast prestige and wealth into a "complete joke". In his duel with Dooku Anakin's decisions in the force became reality, he simply decides Dooku should lose his arms, and it happens. Not to mention that Durge a 2000 year old battle hardened mercenary whose faced Jedi, Sith and Mandalorians and calls Anakin the "fastest he's ever seen." And even more-so Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader states that Anakin knows "all forms of combat." So Vaapad won't be the be all end all that decides this, Anakin has more then the necessary speed, power, skill and combat experience to stand against Vaapad, the form.

Its super-conducting loop, wouldn't necessarily benefit Mace as he'd have the rage of the chosen one in full effect bearing down on him a mans whose raw fury was enough for his decisions become reality in the force. Whose to say that the loop will go on forever, it was never fully tested with Sidious as Mace found the shatterpoint and cause him to slip, and the duel itself is even suspect as there is ample evidence of Sidious throwing the whole thing. He knew Anakin was coming, he fell just in time for Anakin to see him defenseless cornered by a big bad black Jedi. Sidious avoids the killing blow with Mace in the movie.




I say you fail.



Fail



FAIL.

Actually, George Lucas said that you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. He subsequently said that Anakin, if he had not lost to Kenobi, would eventually have gotten stronger than Sidious.

And yeah, they Clone Wars feats can be taken as fact. That being said, though, Dooku has feats outside of it (such as owning Ventress, making a far more percise usage of the force than Mace had ever displayed) that put him on a level above Mace. Within it, and outside of it, both Yoda and Sidious (Sidious outside of it, obviously) have feats well beyond what Mace can do. Yeah, he's powerful in the force, but he isn't the Uber Master MoC is making him out to be. The only category in which Mace is the Uber Master is in lightsaber combat, where I believe he could defeat Anakin. Not without difficulty, though, obviously.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Mace dies. And then Obi-Wan and Anakin probably die against Yoda; they will both be fatigued (it won't be a walk in the park for them), enabling Yoda to easily disable one of them with the (preferably Anakin) and defeat the other in a lightsaber duel (preferably Obi-Wan).

You know stance on the CW cartoons and I have more then enough evidence to back up my stance, you going "nuh uh" won't change a thing. But either way it works against his pathetic argument.

Originally posted by Dr. Styles
Ah...nay.


They are very much in Mace's league, Dooku for one was viewed as "One of the greatest Jedi in its 25,000 year history" and even a "Greater Sith Lord." (ROTS Novelization) He is a man who has completely mastered the lightsaber, whom managed to duel with Yoda. Who in fact dueled Mace Windu to a stand still (Obsessions). Doubly he has FAR more force power then Mace Windu. Cin Drallig himeself was a complete master of the lightsaber, whom would also give Mace a far good duel had they ever fight.

I'm sorry kiddo but the Clone Wars feats are purposely exaggerated and cannot be taken as fact, as Mace for one, could he perform all these ridicules moves why didn't he destroy all those droids on Geonosis, he would have saved the slaughter of some 200 Jedi. Furthermore its inconsistent with his power portrayal in the novel Shatterpoint where he whines about his lack of ability in the force. Where he could even lift a land crawler with the force. Not to mention was completely overpowered by Kar Vastor in the force. And the novel over rides a cartoon which purposely exaggerates Mace's power beyond belief.




I'm sorry but rank and power are not in correlation, as its not dictated by "who beats who in a fight" or "whos stronger then who" as if that was then Anakin should have his spot and be encroaching on Yoda's spot in the Jedi order



Acoording to who? Nick Gillard? Um who gives a flying f*ck what Nick Gillard thinks. He's a stunt/sword fight coordinator, he's not George Lucas and he is not a representative of LFL, and those stupid power levels have never been endorsed or supported in any other medium by LFL. So ah no moron. Not to say that Drallig anyways as the force comes into play and he's decimate Drallig with the force. However someone like Anakin Skywalker could go toe to toe with Sidious, as well as Dooku, Dooku would in all likely hood die, but both can still compete with him.




A>B so A>C = FAIL.



Nuff said that your a doofus.



Nay.

Mace crushing Grievous chest is not an impressive feat, as you know: Grievous is not force sensitive, and can't counter force attacks. Lets see Mace do that to a force user, oh wait...



Anakin is "the strongest, fastest, most powerful Jedi of his generation perhaps of any generation" (ROTS Novel) He managed to crush Count Dooku in 12 seconds a feat not even Yoda can lay claim too, he managed to turn Dooku's lightsaber mastery, force power, knowledge of the force, and vast prestige and wealth into a "complete joke". In his duel with Dooku Anakin's decisions in the force became reality, he simply decides Dooku should lose his arms, and it happens. Not to mention that Durge a 2000 year old battle hardened mercenary whose faced Jedi, Sith and Mandalorians and calls Anakin the "fastest he's ever seen." And even more-so Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader states that Anakin knows "all forms of combat." So Vaapad won't be the be all end all that decides this, Anakin has more then the necessary speed, power, skill and combat experience to stand against Vaapad, the form.

Its super-conducting loop, wouldn't necessarily benefit Mace as he'd have the rage of the chosen one in full effect bearing down on him a mans whose raw fury was enough for his decisions become reality in the force. Whose to say that the loop will go on forever, it was never fully tested with Sidious as Mace found the shatterpoint and cause him to slip, and the duel itself is even suspect as there is ample evidence of Sidious throwing the whole thing. He knew Anakin was coming, he fell just in time for Anakin to see him defenseless cornered by a big bad black Jedi. Sidious avoids the killing blow with Mace in the movie.

I say you fail.

Fail



FAIL.

you continue to conduct yourself in an uncivilized manner with rants and insults. that being said i will try to keep this simple.


1) George lucas statment shows that the only jedi order members who are on par with siddious are mace and yoda, since obi wan and cin drallig are not on that list we know that they cant compete with mace because he is on siddious' level as stated by lucas.

as for dooku, we know he cant beat the emperor because if he were he would have taken out siddious and taken over per the usurpation doctrine of sith and the rule of two.

so, mace is above dooku, above mace, and above drallig.


2) clone war feats are cannon so maces force feats count like the rockslide and such

3) you have said nothing to counter the fact that obi wan doesnt show any defense against offensive force attacks let alone a FORCE CRUSH, it will give obi wan a heart attack and sweep him, aside.

4) if anakin were so great he wouldnt have lost to obi wan but whatever flaw it is be it hubris, lack of wisdon etc.. it will serve against anakin in his INEVITABLE 1 on 1 with mace which will ensure because obi wan has not a chance in this fight.

conclusion: mace still wins after some work

Please, MoC. First of all, it's not like Obi-Wan is a pathetic weakling (as one of the greatest Jedi in the Order, and arguably also in its entire history, he's bound to have some force skills) and is defenseless against Mace's crush; besides, Mace's preferred way of fighting is utilizing his lightsaber, where even Obi-Wan can last a while against Mace, individually. Not beat him, but give him a hard time.

And Mace never displayed the ability to use the force with such percision as to pop out somebody's heart.

At Styles: Meh. I've been with you on this, and I don't intend to argue with you again. But remember that I was supporting you in this argument.

i didnt say obi wan was weak i said that he hasnt shown me anything to indicate that he can stop a force crush

Styles, how many times do I have to ask you to stop insulting in your posts? It is pointless and annoying. Please knock it off or the next one will be a official warning.

One thing that should be straighten out, Anakin is not and never was the strongest, fastest, and most powerful Jedi of his time. Potential and is are two very different things.

Anakin could have but never did or was. Yoda was the strongest, fastest, and most powerful Jedi of his era. Second to Yoda is Mace. Now you can argue who is third and fourth.

I think it is pretty safe assumption that Obiwan could throw up a force shield or something of the sorts to counter Mace's crush. I think it is pretty stupid to use cw cartoons(over the top powers) as the bread and butter of your argument that Mace is a force powerhouse ranking close Yoda,Sidious,Dooku,etc.

Especially considering the battle of(dantooine) where mace takes out a whole army by himself if about 4-5 months after AOTC in which he got surrounded by less droids in the movie and how about 200 jedi with him at the begining of the battle plus if you watch a clip of cw cartoon where Mace takes out the army there is a point where he is he is surrounded yet only the droids in front of him attack yet there are rows of droids behind him doin nothing!!!

Anakin is the strongest, fastest, and most powerful Jedi of his GENERATION. Yoda, being 900 years old, and Mace, being old enough to be out of Anakin's generation, are not included. It simply means that Anakin is the best Jedi out of... err... his 'age group'. Lolz.

WTF, AC?

I'mma gonna go eat some Chinese and when I get back, I'd like to debate some of this. Because now you've just turned my world upside down and I'm drowning in confusion.

I can appreciate the notion that Dooku is in Windu's league; the official databank and multiple sources confirm that, when Dooku was a Jedi, he and Yoda were the only two duelists capable of defeating Windu in single combat and likewise, Yoda: Dark Rendezvous confirms that in terms of swordsmanship, Mace Windu is the only Jedi in existence who is "Dooku's equal" on neutral ground. However, while Dooku's expertise with a lightsaber and experience in combat is arguably equal to Windu's, his Sith allegiance and association with the dark side makes him especially vulnerable to the shatterpoint charism and the metaphysical properties of Vaapad, a form which Dooku is not a master of, and which is -- by Yoda's own admission -- far deadlier than Makashi (though not as efficient as Makashi in swordplay).

Minus that, however, I have some problems with the mentality you've subscribed to:



First, you yourself have stated on numerous occasions that Dooku was essentially a distraction at best for Yoda. I've already established ad infinitum that Yoda's goal at Geonosis was to capture Count Dooku (he explicitly instructs Windu that "Captured, Dooku must be, before more systems he rallies to his cause) and is best demonstrated when he abandons the lightsaber duel with the Count to save the lives of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, despite telling Kenobi in Revenge of the Sith that a "true Jedi" would have sacrificed Kenobi (or any other Jedi) if it brought the war to end "an hour sooner". Moreover, despite the fact that Vjun empowered the Count's already formidable Force powers and bladework, he was unable to defeat Yoda in single combat, even though Yoda was still attempting to bring the Count in alive and redeem him ("Wish to hurt you, I do not!". Essentially, for all of Dooku's legendary prowess, had Yoda attacked him as he did his master, Darth Sidious, the Count would have been blitzed.



You may tell me where being a "complete master of the lightsaber" = "capable of giving Windu a fair duel". Especially since you're being completely speculative and not bothering to source your assertions. This doesn't cut it, AC, and you know it.



And if Anakin Skywalker were truly the most powerful Jedi Knights ever -- or even one of -- why was he unable to overpower Kenobi with not only his lightsaber, but with a Force push? And if Sidious or Mace or Dooku or Kenobi or Anakin or Yoda were truly incredible duelists, among the best ever, why have they all not moved beyond what the eye can see? Why did Sidious and Mace, especially, fought so incredibly slow in their duel in Palpatine's office? I can use the same logic that you do, and while you do make a good point, the movies and EU are full of discrepencies and continuity errors. As Nai has pointed out before, George Lucas praised the feats portrayed in Clone Wars and testified that therein lies how he "imagine(s) real Jedi would be like."

Due to PIS and finite budget, obviously, such feats are not seen in the movies. Are we to ignore them, then?



Windu was one of two senior members of the Jedi High Council and described as being "on par with the venerable Yoda". He's number two in the Order, AC, you need to accept that and move on.



The last bit confuses me, AC. Go toe-to-toe with Sidious in what? Swordsmanship? As far as pure skills, sure. In Force prowess? Hardly.



In the vague manner in which he used it, I agree. But the exact circumstances are not. Windu was able to defeat Sidious in single combat due to the shatterpoint charism and the metaphysical properties of Vaapad that are especially deadly to those with a dark side allegiance. Dooku's not a flawless duelist and possesses the same allegiance and a weaker mastery of it than Sidious. While he is arguably equal or superior to Windu in terms of pure skills with a blade, there is nothing to suggest that he could overcome Windu in a lightsaber duel, and heaps of evidence to the contrary.



He certainly could have presented his argument a lot better, but doofus is entirely out of fashion.



Force crushing duranium armor that "can stop a starfighter's laser canon" (Revenge of the Sith novelization, pg. 92) is certainly an impressive feat.



"Can lay claim to"? No. He most certainly could have claimed it. Did he? No. But those are two totally separate things.



Agreed and I propose no argument there.



"All forms of combat" =/= Vaapad. According to the Essential Guide to the Force, Sora Bulq's fall from grace prompted Windu to direct that all those who wish to learn Vaapad must receive explicit permission, assessment, and training from Windu himself. Anakin received no such things. Moreover, Emperor Palpatine's swordplay was only equal to Windu's Vaapad. Darth Vader is not, in any single way imaginable, equal to Darth Sidious. He's not as fast and he's not as powerful. You'll need more than that to prove that he could match Vaapad.



This is an entirely separate argument. Lucas says Windu overpowered Palpatine and anything contrary to the straightforward interpretation bears the burden of proof; the novelization nor script make any mention of Sidious's restraint during the lightsaber duel.



A stamp we can apply to a great deal of your own argument, sir.

Originally posted by Kotor3
One thing that should be straighten out, Anakin is not and never was the strongest, fastest, and most powerful Jedi of his time. Potential and is are two very different things.

Anakin could have but never did or was. Yoda was the strongest, fastest, and most powerful Jedi of his era. Second to Yoda is Mace. Now you can argue who is third and fourth.
"Once the most powerful Jedi Knight ever known to the Jedi Order, he is now a disciple of the dark side, a lord of the dreaded Sith, and the avenging right hand of the galaxy's ruthless new Emperor." - RoDV

At the time of RoTS, Anakin is the most powerful, but OB1 just has more experience." - George Lucas, RoTS DVD special featurette.

So then you're speaking on his mastery of the force then, not power. Correct? He still has more power than them, he just doesn't have the control, or mastery, over it. And like it was said, Durge said he was the fastest he'd ever scene, who, like also mentioned, has seen more Jedi than we can count.

That's all though. Just wanted to point that out.

So, if you say, Gideon, that the Count's skills with the blade are equal or possibly better than Mace's, do you believe Anakin (light side) could defeat Mace in a duel?

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
So, if you say, Gideon, that the Count's skills with the blade are equal or possibly better than Mace's, do you believe Anakin (light side) could defeat Mace in a duel?

Quite possibly.

I thought I was the only one who believed Anakin might beat Mace in a fair fight.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
I thought I was the only one who believed Anakin might beat Mace in a fair fight.

I said "possibly". Windu's strength is prodigious and well beyond anything that Count Dooku was vulnerable to, though Anakin's strength is -- judging from the novel -- equally superhuman beyond Jedi norm.

Originally posted by Gideon
I said "possibly". Windu's strength is prodigious and well beyond anything that Count Dooku was vulnerable to, though Anakin's strength is -- judging from the novel -- equally superhuman beyond Jedi norm.

And I said "might".

I always thought he could beat Mace too. Just depends on the circumstances. I think it's safe to say that Anakin's strength is rather prodigious too. I know you mentioned that, just saying.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I always thought he could beat Mace too. Just depends on the circumstances. I think it's safe to say that Anakin's strength is rather prodigious too. I know you mentioned that, just saying.

I really do not see how Anakin could take Mace at all. Every uses the excuse that Obi Wan new Anakin and that is why he defeated him. Anakin new Obi Wan just as well.

Also the clone war movie is coming out tomorrow so it is canon. I'm sure it will show Mace to be more powerful than he is perceived.

Yes, also I am referring to Mastery of the Force. Power is there but is not master so it cannot produce the max strength that exist. It is just like excerising. The more you train yourself in a certian era the stronger you become.

With that in mind no matter how powerful Anakin is I see Mace not taking a long time at all to dispose of Anakin in a one on one situation.

How come the Clone war movie is cannon when Anakin has an apprentice? In ROTS he wasn't a master yet. I did ask this in the TV show forum, but no one goes there.

anakin alone but mace cud probably beat obi wan

Originally posted by Jbill311
How come the Clone war movie is cannon when Anakin has an apprentice? In ROTS he wasn't a master yet. I did ask this in the TV show forum, but no one goes there.

You don't have to be a master to train a Padawan, take Obi-Wan for example he wasn't a master at the end of TPM but Anakin is still his apprentice.Hope that helped

Originally posted by Jbill311
How come the Clone war movie is cannon when Anakin has an apprentice? In ROTS he wasn't a master yet. I did ask this in the TV show forum, but no one goes there.

I have to look into this but I thought it is (the script) approved by Lucas.

Mace wouldn't last long. Obi wan or anakin alone could put up a good fight, maybe even beat him. though i doubt it.

Originally posted by Icy Ninja
You don't have to be a master to train a Padawan, take Obi-Wan for example he wasn't a master at the end of TPM but Anakin is still his apprentice.Hope that helped

It did. I haven't seen TPM for a while, and I forgot about that.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I really do not see how Anakin could take Mace at all. Every uses the excuse that Obi Wan new Anakin and that is why he defeated him. Anakin new Obi Wan just as well.

Also the clone war movie is coming out tomorrow so it is canon. I'm sure it will show Mace to be more powerful than he is perceived.

Yes, also I am referring to Mastery of the Force. Power is there but is not master so it cannot produce the max strength that exist. It is just like excerising. The more you train yourself in a certian era the stronger you become.

With that in mind no matter how powerful Anakin is I see Mace not taking a long time at all to dispose of Anakin in a one on one situation. At the time of RoTS, Anakin could take pretty much anyone. Also, I don't think it's been confirmed the level of canon that this will be.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
At the time of RoTS, Anakin could take pretty much anyone. Also, I don't think it's been confirmed the level of canon that this will be.

How is that statement true. No way in hell could Anakin have taken Yoda, Mace, or Sidious in an all out fight. He lost to Obi remember.

IN SABER COMBAT!!! No one said in the force or all out! And his loss to OB1 was completely situational, and any attempt to prove otherwise is futile.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
IN SABER COMBAT!!! No one said in the force or all out! And his loss to OB1 was completely situational, and any attempt to prove otherwise is futile.

Ok sorry maybe I missed something. This is an all out thread though.

All good, but it was actually never specified.

Thanks to Sora Bluq, Dooku does have a working knowledge of Vaapad, to the point where he can fight with Mace Windu on even ground to a standstill (Obsessions) 3 months prior to ROTS, Sora was in all practicality a Vaapad ( of the lightsaber aspect of the form) and Dooku knew of the ins and outs of the style, just as he taunts Windu how his style "skirts the dark side." And really Dooku mauled a Vaapad master in Sora Bluq AND Tholme at the same time, Vaapads leetness won't really affect Dooku.






"Love you enough to kill you I do Dooku."

Besides:

I never said he'd win I just said he could fight against Yoda which he would, he'd get crushed eventually in an all out assault from Yoda, but he'd at least fend him off for a couple seconds enough for it not to be a complete embarrassment like it was with Skywalker.





He was the orders battlemaster, he taught lightsaber combat, that alone is enough to assume he has an atleast master level in the forms as he was entrusted to teach Jedi the upper levels of their self defense, I don't have any sources with me anymore so feel free to show me I'm wrong. Mind you a fair duel to me = not a decapitation within 2 seconds ie: being pwnd like Kit Fisto. I'm saying he'd probably last longer then that.




As I said: whatever, do to Dooku, Yoda and arguably Anakin all having superior feats in the show as Crimzon pointed out, it serves to prove my point either way, so ah I don't really care.





That wasn't my point, it was rank =/= power, that he happened to be arguably the second best next to Yoda in terms of overall skill (Skywalker and Kenobi are close runners up) is just a plus. Look at Jacen, he was the second strongest Jedi in the NJO but he's not even on the council. As for the quote; Kar Vastor isn't Mace or Yoda, and if his complete manhandling of Mace is any indication he'd be able to take on Sidious, under the right conditions. I'm saying that someone with the power of say Dooku would be able to take on Sidious, though he'd probably lose, it won't be like a Kit Fisto loss.





See above. Only Anakin would have slightly more success due to his sheer power/skill.






How bout the fact that they fight to a standstill 3 months before ROTS. I'd say they're pretty even, especially given that Dooku is familiar with Mace's style.




Now lets see him do that to a force user who can you know: defend the attack...oh wait...the only time we see him using the force to take on anther force sensitive he gets tossed around like a rag doll by Vastor.





Ok.







My bad, I meant to specify that he DIDN'T know Vaapad, but forgot. My point was that Anakin has enough skill and experience to not be overwhelmed by Vaapad the form.





Ok.






Um, not really.

Originally posted by Dr. Styles
Thanks to Sora Bluq, Dooku does have a working knowledge of Vaapad, to the point where he can fight with Mace Windu on even ground to a standstill (Obsessions) 3 months prior to ROTS, Sora was in all practicality a Vaapad ( of the lightsaber aspect of the form) and Dooku knew of the ins and outs of the style, just as he taunts Windu how his style "skirts the dark side."

Where has it been confirmed that Count Dooku has a "working knowledge" of Vaapad? Furthermore, Sora Bulq's legendary skills with a lightsaber notwithstanding, it is painfully evident that he did not master Vaapad. According to Windu's musings in Revenge of the Sith, Vaapad is more than a fighting style, it's a state of mind. Of Sora Bulq, Windu concluded: "He did not master Vaapad. Vaapad mastered him." Not at all the same thing. As far as Dooku versus Windu is concerned, where did you get "standstill" from? He sparred with him for a few strikes and had Magnaguards ambush Windu so Dooku could escape. Hardly the behavior of someone who is truly confident of victory and who mentioned that he would deal with the Jedi on Boz Pity. Dooku sure changed his mind all of a sudden.



Bullshit, AC. As established, Bulq's a beast, but he didn't master Vaapad. We can also use your copyrighted brand of logic and point out that Dooku was somehow unable to to replicate the same feat with Windu. Could it be, perhaps, Windu is greater than Tholme and Bulq?



"Wish to hurt you, I do not." Yoda clearly wasn't out for blood. If he attacked Dooku like he attacked Sidious, Dooku would be a gigantic bloostain on the floor.



A complete embarrassment? Only when Skywalker reached his vaunted state-of-mind, AC. You don't get to edit the duel where we conveniently misplace the two minutes beforehand where Dooku pitted himself well against Kenobi and Skywalker.



"Upper level" =/= "on the level of Mace Windu". What the hell is this, man? I guess the entirety of the Jedi Council is on par with Yoda, then.



A consession, thank you.



LOL. Whoa, whoa, whoa. So, let me get this straight. You're telling me that Kar Vastor could take on Sidious even though, according to a witness between Vastor versus Mace, Vastor wouldn't stand a chance against Vader? I'm going to have to go back through the hierarchy again. Let's get this one straight. Darth Sidious's mastery of the Force far surpasses Anakin Skywalker's or Darth Vader's. It's not close. According to a source that you accept, Vastor wouldn't stand a chance against Vader. So how could he take on Sidious, again? Answer: it's not. Sidious, Yoda, and Anakin in raw potency are leagues above Vastor.



The same Count Dooku who, despite having an army numbering in the trillions, a powerful assortment of dark side adepts, and was a prodigious master of the Force himself... was absolutely terrified of Darth Sidious? I rather doubt it.



Again, I'm confused. Are we talking lightsaber skills or Force prowess? You never really clarified.



Except a few strikes =/= a duel, you haven't told me where Dooku's knowledge of Vaapad is so uber, and you have failed to take into consideration: a.) Mace's shatterpoint charism, b.) the metaphysical properties of Vaapad versus dark siders, c.) the fact that Dooku, despite proclaiming " would handle the Jedi", has Magnaguards ambush Windu.



You said it wasn't impressive. I said it was, not that he'd be able to replicate the feat on a Force user.



A concession, then? Excellent.



Understandable. A concession, then? Thank you.



Another concession, all right.



Yes, really. Four concessions? I don't know if you're sick or what, but most of your argument is total speculation i.e. Cin Drallig was a battlemaster and a "complete master of the lightsaber" = "on par with Mace Windu". Then we have real treats like "Kar Vastor could take on Sidious" even though you've accepted and been overjoyed at the source that made it clear Vastor wouldn't stand a chance against Vader. What the hell, dude? Not your finest hour.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
And his loss to OB1 was completely situational

SITUATIONAL!? Prove it. And Obi-wan beat him because of his experience and his smarts. Sure Anakin was blinded by rage, but obi wan would have won either way.

Originally posted by skywalker833
SITUATIONAL!? Prove it. And Obi-wan beat him because of his experience and his smarts. Sure Anakin was blinded by rage, but obi wan would have won either way. If Anakin hadn't jumped, Obi-Wan wouldn't have dismembered him. It wasn't due to Kenobi's superior skills or martial prowess.

Anakin > Obi-Wan. However, Obi-Wan is smarter, more experienced, and has an inside knowledge of all of Anakin's moves and psychological weaknesses, the former theoretically giving him a stalemate when it comes to blade-to-blade abilities, and the latter, combined with his tactical prowess, will mean that he will likely reach a tactical advantage and defeat Anakin if they ever fought again.

Still, Anakin is (easily) capable of feats Obi-Wan could never accomplish, such as utterly tooling Count Dooku, who Obi-Wan could, at best, stalemate in saber combat abilities (and I believe that Dooku > Obi-Wan, anyway, both in the force and in saber combat). Nick Gillard also confirms this, by calling Anakin a '9' and Obi-Wan an '8'. The fact that Anakin's saber abilities are greater than Obi-Wan's is canonical fact and cannot be argued.

anakin alone wud beat windu and he needs obi wan against yoda

Originally posted by darthyoda23
anakin alone wud beat windu and he needs obi wan against yoda

This is the funniest post on the thread. Exactly how would he do so?

Are you referring to saber battle or all out? This is an ALL OUT thread!

Originally posted by Kotor3
This is the funniest post on the thread. Exactly how would he do so?

Are you referring to saber battle or all out? This is an ALL OUT thread! he beated him in the game (epsiode 3 the video game) but he needs help against yoda

Originally posted by darthyoda23
anakin alone wud beat windu and he needs obi wan against yoda Did you really just say that?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Did you really just say that? its true in the game episofe 3 ofical game of the movie anakin had a sword duel with mace and anakin won but he cant beat yoda

Its been ages since I played that game, cant remember.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Its been ages since I played that game, cant remember. its only been out since 2005

I know. I played it for like a month, beat it several times, then traded it in.

It doesn't matter cause that is gameplay and as Anakin vs Mace never happened in the movie then it didn't really happen and to be honest I didn't like the game to much. I thought it was pretty easy to beat.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
It doesn't matter cause that is gameplay and as Anakin vs Mace never happened in the movie then it didn't really happen and to be honest I didn't like the game to much. I thought it was pretty easy to beat. really well it took me a year to beat it

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
It doesn't matter cause that is gameplay and as Anakin vs Mace never happened in the movie then it didn't really happen and to be honest I didn't like the game to much. I thought it was pretty easy to beat. Wasnt it though? I was VERY disappointed.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Wasnt it though? I was VERY disappointed.

I only played it for the movie cutscenes honestly.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I only played it for the movie cutscenes honestly. WORST....VERSUS.......GAME......EVER.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
WORST....VERSUS.......GAME......EVER. that game is dum

Originally posted by darthyoda23
really well it took me a year to beat it

that is sad. took me 'bout a month.

Originally posted by skywalker833
that is sad. took me 'bout a month. A MONTH i was stuck on obi wan vs general grevious for 3 months hardest star wars game ever next to battlefront 2

Originally posted by skywalker833
that is sad. took me 'bout a month.
that is sad. took me 'bout a week

lol

crylaugh

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
crylaugh

QFT.

I beat the game in 6 days.

Everyone has joker avatars now... It was a great movie but...

Originally posted by skywalker833
Everyone has joker avatars now... It was a great movie but...

But? jokedur

nice smiley.

Thank you.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Everyone has joker avatars now... It was a great movie but...

Why So Serious??!!

Originally posted by Kotor3
No one has really explain why Dooku with be more better with the force than Mace.

you have any idea how many force users Dooku has completely overpowered with the force?? and not just any old force users, powerful ones!!

lets see now, Asajj Ventress, Tholme, Quinlan Vos, Sora Bulq, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker...

also Yoda in Dark Rendezvous says that from all the students of the temple Dooku was the most learned in the ways of the Force.

so im afraid the burden is on you to explain and prove how and why Mace is in league with Dooku in the Force??

Originally posted by Gideon
Where has it been confirmed that Count Dooku has a "working knowledge" of Vaapad? Furthermore, Sora Bulq's legendary skills with a lightsaber notwithstanding, it is painfully evident that he did not master Vaapad. According to Windu's musings in Revenge of the Sith, Vaapad is more than a fighting style, it's a state of mind. Of Sora Bulq, Windu concluded: "He did not master Vaapad. Vaapad mastered him." Not at all the same thing.

Sora Bulq may not have mastered the mental aspects of Vapaad, but clearly did master its physical aspects. besides mace saying Vapaad mastered Bulq is from Mace's point of view.. from the point of veiw of someone who made the fighting form to be used as a force for the light side, and would not have any respect for someone who would use what Mace taught him for the dark side..

Lets not also forget that it was Sora Bulq who helped Mace develop Vappad in the first place, and before Mace knew Bulq had turned to the dark side Mace fully admitted in Schism that Bulq knows Vapaad almost as well as Mace himself knows it.

Originally posted by Gideon
As far as Dooku versus Windu is concerned, where did you get "standstill" from? He sparred with him for a few strikes and had Magnaguards ambush Windu so Dooku could escape. Hardly the behavior of someone who is truly confident of victory and who mentioned that he would deal with the Jedi on Boz Pity. Dooku sure changed his mind all of a sudden.

A few strilkes as you call it is quite long for a comic book fight. and the main point of those few strikes was that neither of them gave way and fought evenly, just like Dark Rendevouz suggested they would on neutral ground.

Dooku certainly wuldnt be truly confident of a victory over Mace, and fully admits Mace may kill him.. That doesnt mean Dooku cant kill Mace as well.

and yes if they were fighting to a "Standstill" Dooku would flee. as he would have been the dumbest jedi/sith ever to stick around fighting Mace Windu to a stand off, as this would have pretty much guaranteed Dooku getting captured with all the other jedi and clone troopers out looking for him.

also theres plenty of proof that Mace was willing to give his life to take out Dooku. Can you really say the same Vice Versa?? Its for this same reason Sidious tried to flee from Yoda, even though hes easily Yodas equal.


Originally posted by Gideon

We can also use your copyrighted brand of logic and point out that Dooku was somehow unable to to replicate the same feat with Windu. Could it be, perhaps, Windu is greater than Tholme and Bulq?


But Dooku was clearly able to defeat Bulq(while fighting Tholme) far easier than Mace could.

Quote the post, then you have to copy and paste the "quote brackets" around each part you want to reply to. The beginning will say the person's name, a number and quote, and the last one will say "quote" with the bold brackets around it.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Quote the post, then you have to copy and paste the "quote brackets" around each part you want to reply to. The beginning will say the person's name, a number and quote, and the last one will say "quote" with the bold brackets around it.

Thx

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Second in what?? be more specific.. not that it matters because Dooku wasnt in the jedi order during the prequels.
Actually, though it does not show him, Dooku was a jedi during the time of TPM.

And he was one of the greatest in the Order's 25000 year history.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
According to Yoda, in the jedi temple Dooku was the student most learned in the ways of the force. according to ROTS novel Dooku was an even more powerful sith lord than he was jedi. So yes Dooku knows more force techniques than Mace. Also Dooku can shoot and deflect Force Lightning.. Mace cannot deflect FL without his lightsaber, as was clearly shown in ROTS.

I can agree that Dooku has more force techniques. What proof do you have that Mace cannot deflect Dooku force lighting without his saber? That is an assumption. Mace had issues with Sidious force lighting even with his saber. Sidious is a big difference.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
when did i say they were a match for Mace?? I sed theres no evidence that mace can dominate them with the Force as easily as Dooku can.. you have yet to provide me with evidence that Mace can match Dooku with the Force, which you will have to considering Dookus feats in that area.

Mace could not allow Bulq or Ventress to escape, so if he could have stopped them quickly, he would have.

Ventress even staggered Mace at 1 point.

I have agreed that Dooku has more force techniques, however that does not mean he is stronger in the force. Which is my point. Mace took down Sidious not only because of his style of fighting but also because he was strong enough in the force to compete with Sidious and allow himself time to defeat Sidious in saber combat.

I am not referring to Mace being stronger than Sidious just powerful enough to compete. I believe that Mace is stronger than Dooku when in comes to the force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you sed Dooku never beat Jedi Anakin, but he was a jedi in the clone wars movie. and he clearly overpowered him in the force. he even disarmed him of his lightsaber at one point with a force push.

anakin kick dooku to the ground when dooku was taunting him over ashoka. so that really doesnt mean anything. dooku dominated most the fight.

In ROTS Dooku dominated the first part of the fight. Then Anakin quickly turn the tide. The same in the clone movie. It was evident that Anakin was going to change the tide if they kept fighting. Especially since Dooku kept tauting him.

I do not agree that Dooku dominated he got off some moves but Anakin was no where from hurt or backing down in the fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku was the one distracted by fending of anakin while simultaneously toying obi1 aorund.

How was Dooku distracted? He was fighting both from the start and used droids to separate them so he could get an advantage. He definitely was not toying.


Proof??
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Second in what?? be more specific.. not that it matters because Dooku wasnt in the jedi order during the prequels.

According to my knowledge Dooku was not a sith during Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. He was still a jedi. I could be wrong.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi1 and Anakin were equals because they BOTH knew each others moves inside out. so neither could pass each others defences. theres proof of this from Nick Gillards statements and from the ROTS novel.

I never disagreed. You just supported my point. Anakin and Obi Wan were equals. Mace is not there equal but superior.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ill find the exact quote 2nite.. but he basically sed anakin could have taken sidious had he not got messed up by obi1. there was no mention of potential or some far off future point there.

Ok

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
According to Yoda, in the jedi temple Dooku was the student most learned in the ways of the force. according to ROTS novel Dooku was an even more powerful sith lord than he was jedi. So yes Dooku knows more force techniques than Mace. Also Dooku can shoot and deflect Force Lightning.. Mace cannot deflect FL without his lightsaber, as was clearly shown in ROTS.

I can agree that Dooku has more force techniques. What proof do you have that Mace cannot deflect Dooku force lighting without his saber? That is an assumption. Mace had issues with Sidious force lighting even with his saber. Sidious is a big difference.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
when did i say they were a match for Mace?? I sed theres no evidence that mace can dominate them with the Force as easily as Dooku can.. you have yet to provide me with evidence that Mace can match Dooku with the Force, which you will have to considering Dookus feats in that area.

Mace could not allow Bulq or Ventress to escape, so if he could have stopped them quickly, he would have.

Ventress even staggered Mace at 1 point.

I have agreed that Dooku has more force techniques, however that does not mean he is stronger in the force. Which is my point. Mace took down Sidious not only because of his style of fighting but also because he was strong enough in the force to compete with Sidious and allow himself time to defeat Sidious in saber combat.

I am not referring to Mace being stronger than Sidious just powerful enough to compete. I believe that Mace is stronger than Dooku when in comes to the force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you sed Dooku never beat Jedi Anakin, but he was a jedi in the clone wars movie. and he clearly overpowered him in the force. he even disarmed him of his lightsaber at one point with a force push.

anakin kick dooku to the ground when dooku was taunting him over ashoka. so that really doesnt mean anything. dooku dominated most the fight.

In ROTS Dooku dominated the first part of the fight. Then Anakin quickly turn the tide. The same in the clone movie. It was evident that Anakin was going to change the tide if they kept fighting. Especially since Dooku kept tauting him.

I do not agree that Dooku dominated he got off some moves but Anakin was no where from hurt or backing down in the fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku was the one distracted by fending of anakin while simultaneously toying obi1 aorund.

How was Dooku distracted? He was fighting both from the start and used droids to separate them so he could get an advantage. He definitely was not toying.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Second in what?? be more specific.. not that it matters because Dooku wasnt in the jedi order during the prequels.

According to my knowledge Dooku was not a sith during Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. He was still a jedi. I could be wrong.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi1 and Anakin were equals because they BOTH knew each others moves inside out. so neither could pass each others defences. theres proof of this from Nick Gillards statements and from the ROTS novel.

I never disagreed. You just supported my point. Anakin and Obi Wan were equals. Mace is not there equal but superior.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ill find the exact quote 2nite.. but he basically sed anakin could have taken sidious had he not got messed up by obi1. there was no mention of potential or some far off future point there.

Ok

Originally posted by Kotor3
I can agree that Dooku has more force techniques. What proof do you have that Mace cannot deflect Dooku force lighting without his saber? That is an assumption. Mace had issues with Sidious force lighting even with his saber. Sidious is a big difference. How do you prove a negative? You have to prove that Mace can block lightning without a saber. The only person we've seen even attempt it was Yoda. And he is definitely Mace's superior.


Originally posted by Kotor3
I have agreed that Dooku has more force techniques, however that does not mean he is stronger in the force. Which is my point. Mace took down Sidious not only because of his style of fighting but also because he was strong enough in the force to compete with Sidious and allow himself time to defeat Sidious in saber combat. Sidious completely outclasses Mace in the force. Mace beat him in sabers legitimately, but the rest was a ploy to turn Anakin. Dooku is a beast in both the force and sabers. After being one on the best Jedi, he became, "An even greater Lord of the Sith."


Originally posted by Kotor3
I am not referring to Mace being stronger than Sidious just powerful enough to compete. I believe that Mace is stronger than Dooku when in comes to the force. What gives you this idea? You've yet to prove it.


Originally posted by Kotor3
In ROTS Dooku dominated the first part of the fight. Then Anakin quickly turn the tide. The same in the clone movie. It was evident that Anakin was going to change the tide if they kept fighting. Especially since Dooku kept tauting him. Even in the first part of the fight, Dooku was on the defensive and being pushed back. Him and OB1 were getting tired while Anakin was only getting stronger. That being said, he still had the ability to pwn OB1 with the force amidst losing the saber battle. A testament to his force prowess.


Originally posted by Kotor3
I do not agree that Dooku dominated he got off some moves but Anakin was no where from hurt or backing down in the fight.
Yea, but him being pwned by Anakin has nothing to do his force abilities.

Originally posted by Kotor3
How was Dooku distracted? He was fighting both from the start and used droids to separate them so he could get an advantage. He definitely was not toying. No he wasn't distracted. He felt the pressure and was reduced to using droids to hel out. But again, this is while in saber combat with Anakin. He still took Kenobi out with the force after that.


Originally posted by Kotor3
According to my knowledge Dooku was not a sith during Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. He was still a jedi. I could be wrong. No he was not yet a Sith.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I never disagreed. You just supported my point. Anakin and Obi Wan were equals. Mace is not there equal but superior. What exactly are they equals in? GL said that even mace thought Anakin was too powerful and possibly jealous. Anakin was doing things in AoTC that most others couldn't do, including OB1 and Mace. (AoTC Commentary)

Erm, you do realize that it is a negative to say that you can't prove a negative, thus if you can prove that statement to be true, you would be proving a negative. . .



Count Dooku deflected his own lightning in AOTC, if you remember. I'd find it ridiculous to say that Mace couldn't block Force lightning. It isn't exactly a power unknown to Jedi, as Kenobi demonstrated the ability to deflect Durge's bullets in the CW microseries (which is apparently the same power you can use to deflect Force attacks). And Mace is definitely among the strongest Force user of the era.

It'd be dependent upon who was utilizing the lightning that really matters. I doubt he'd be able to handle Sidious' assaults, but Dooku's or someone of lesser power would be a different case completely.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
How do you prove a negative? You have to prove that Mace can block lightning without a saber. The only person we've seen even attempt it was Yoda. And he is definitely Mace's superior.

You can't we don't know if Mace could but you cannot say he can't. Dooku lighting is nothing in comparison to Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Sidious completely outclasses Mace in the force. Mace beat him in sabers legitimately, but the rest was a ploy to turn Anakin. Dooku is a beast in both the force and sabers. After being one on the best Jedi, he became, "An even greater Lord of the Sith."

The point is Mace did not win purely on his skills with a Saber. That is impossible. His strength in the force allowed him to compete or be able to stand against Sidious. Just as Dooku was able to do against Yoda even though Yoda was not trying to hurt him.

As for the ploy, if Anakin never came I do believe that Sidious might have been able to power his way with the force or make an escape by using the force. Would he have defeated Mace no one knows?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
What gives you this idea? You've yet to prove it.

It is my opinion, it is nothing to prove except for the fact that I gave an example as to why I felt this way. Mace could defeat Sidious and did, Dooku could not.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Even in the first part of the fight, Dooku was on the defensive and being pushed back. Him and OB1 were getting tired while Anakin was only getting stronger. That being said, he still had the ability to pwn OB1 with the force amidst losing the saber battle. A testament to his force prowess.

Yes it is a testament. Side note, I never like the fact that Dooku was able to do that to Obi Wan at the stage in Obi Wan's career. Bad scripting to put Anakin in a one on one situation with Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Yea, but him being pwned by Anakin has nothing to do his force abilities.

Yes it does. His abilities are impressive but Dooku was not powerful enough to defeat Anakin at that stage of Anakin's development.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
No he wasn't distracted. He felt the pressure and was reduced to using droids to hel out. But again, this is while in saber combat with Anakin. He still took Kenobi out with the force after that.

Nothing to argue here.


Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
What exactly are they equals in? GL said that even mace thought Anakin was too powerful and possibly jealous. Anakin was doing things in AoTC that most others couldn't do, including OB1 and Mace. (AoTC Commentary)

Once again I cannot argue this since I never heard of this quote before. Still does not prove that Anakin could defeat Mace when he could not Obi Wan.

Originally posted by Kotor3
You can't we don't know if Mace could but you cannot say he can't. Dooku lighting is nothing in comparison to Sidious. If you can't prove that he can, then you can't use that scenario. And I realize that you read Advent's post before posting, and while its true that Dooku is not on Sidious' level, it's still a powerful attack by an extremely powerful Sith Lord. If he generated the lightning to begin with (Dooku that is) then it only stands to reason that he can block it or deflect it once Yoda sent it back to him. It's his force attack.

Originally posted by Kotor3
The point is Mace did not win purely on his skills with a Saber. That is impossible. His strength in the force allowed him to compete or be able to stand against Sidious. Just as Dooku was able to do against Yoda even though Yoda was not trying to hurt him. Yes he did. He is nowhere near the same level as Sidious, force wise. Vaapad was the only reason he got as far as he did. After being knocked down, he was acting tired and hurt for Anakin's sake. That's been proven. And its not the same as Yoda and Dooku cause as you said, Yoda wasn't trying to hurt him. Mace, who's form allows him to trad dangerously close to the dark side and enjoy the fight, was trying to kill Sidious.

Originally posted by Kotor3
As for the ploy, if Anakin never came I do believe that Sidious might have been able to power his way with the force or make an escape by using the force. Would he have defeated Mace no one knows? If Anakin never came in, then he never would have been in that situation. If he was blasting him with lightning to the point that Mace was almost unable to control it, then all he would have to do is push him out the window. The point of being in a vulnerable position was to show Anakin that "the Jedi are taking over." Without him showing up, there would be no point in doing that. Mace would have been pwned by the Sith's most powerful Lord.



Originally posted by Kotor3
It is my opinion, it is nothing to prove except for the fact that I gave an example as to why I felt this way. Mace could defeat Sidious and did, Dooku could not. Opinions don't really mean shit around here. Mace beat him in saber combat, not the force. And when did Dooku even try to fight Sidious? Or what are you talking about?



Originally posted by Kotor3
Yes it is a testament. Side note, I never like the fact that Dooku was able to do that to Obi Wan at the stage in Obi Wan's career. Bad scripting to put Anakin in a one on one situation with Dooku. Uh, that was the point, to get Anakin in that 1v1 situation.



Originally posted by Kotor3
Yes it does. His abilities are impressive but Dooku was not powerful enough to defeat Anakin at that stage of Anakin's development. You obviously missed the point of that fight. The point was that Anakin had become that powerful that Dooku's skills and abilities became "a joke." That still has nothing to do with the fact that he pwned OB1 with the force and has even less to do with Mace's abilities.



Originally posted by Kotor3
Once again I cannot argue this since I never heard of this quote before. Still does not prove that Anakin could defeat Mace when he could not Obi Wan. Go watch the movie with the commentary. He COULD beat OB1! He just didn't in that particular instance. I don't know how many times we have to say that. Anakin, with a saber, could beat virtually anyone at this point in time. Vaapad won't help and Shatterpoint is good, but you have to be able to exploit and hit that mark. Anakin is just that good that it would prove extremely difficult for Mace to do that.

Advent: If he said that Mace could block lightning, then its up to him to prove it. If he says he can and then I say he can't, he can't tell me to prove that he can't. He made the assertion. And I still love you.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If you can't prove that he can, then you can't use that scenario. And I realize that you read Advent's post before posting, and while its true that Dooku is not on Sidious' level, it's still a powerful attack by an extremely powerful Sith Lord. If he generated the lightning to begin with (Dooku that is) then it only stands to reason that he can block it or deflect it once Yoda sent it back to him. It's his force attack.

I did not read her post, was writing mines. But that is alright because your post are full of assumptions. Fine we won't use it but you cannot say he does not have the ability. Advent provide a good but which you tried to address.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I
Yes he did. He is nowhere near the same level as Sidious, force wise. Vaapad was the only reason he got as far as he did. After being knocked down, he was acting tired and hurt for Anakin's sake. That's been proven. And its not the same as Yoda and Dooku cause as you said, Yoda wasn't trying to hurt him. Mace, who's form allows him to trad dangerously close to the dark side and enjoy the fight, was trying to kill Sidious.

You are missing the whole point which is evident by your responses. What are saber skills without use of the force. As was stated Mace was not the only user of Vaapad. Other users of Vaapad could not take down Sidious but Mace did. Get it he was powerful in the force which amplified his skills and abilities to a great degree.

How great? He was able to stand up to Sidious and defeat his in saber combat and resist his force lighting.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

If Anakin never came in, then he never would have been in that situation. If he was blasting him with lightning to the point that Mace was almost unable to control it, then all he would have to do is push him out the window. The point of being in a vulnerable position was to show Anakin that "the Jedi are taking over." Without him showing up, there would be no point in doing that. Mace would have been pwned by the Sith's most powerful Lord.

Oh, look another one of your assumptions. At least I state when I am putting in my opinions.

First of all, Anakin was already there when Sidious unleash his force lighting. Second, he was defeated before Anakin came in. Sidious took a chance that Anakin would help him if he did not, then Mace and Anakin would have killed him.

If you watch the scene closely Sidious only let down his guard and started pleading for his life when he saw Anakin pleading with Mace to let him live.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

Opinions don't really mean shit around here. Mace beat him in saber combat, not the force. And when did Dooku even try to fight Sidious? Or what are you talking about?

Then stop including yours. You are confusing yourself. Dooku never did because he new what the outcome would be. Point Dooku would get pwned by Sidious.


Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

Uh, that was the point, to get Anakin in that 1v1 situation.

I am starting to forget would you are even arguing here. Simple point is he lost to Anakin. He was able to stand up for a while, he used the force and droids to assist and in the end die.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

You obviously missed the point of that fight. The point was that Anakin had become that powerful that Dooku's skills and abilities became "a joke." That still has nothing to do with the fact that he pwned OB1 with the force and has even less to do with Mace's abilities.

No I understand quite clear it is you who do not. You cannot prove that Anakin could do the same to Mace. Mace could defeat everyone Anakin and Dooku defeated. Anakin and Dooku could not defeat Sidious. Simple!

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

Go watch the movie with the commentary. He COULD beat OB1! He just didn't in that particular instance. I don't know how many times we have to say that. Anakin, with a saber, could beat virtually anyone at this point in time. Vaapad won't help and Shatterpoint is good, but you have to be able to exploit and hit that mark. Anakin is just that good that it would prove extremely difficult for Mace to do that.

Maybe Anakin can. He can surely compete with them. No argument. But fights do not just include saber combat. We are talking about an all out fight.

I have to go. Catch later.

I know, Subjekt. I was just trying to say that a negative is provable (some are not, but that's not true for all statements).



Good, you have appeased the goddess for this month. BTW, do you still have a problem with your avatar? Or did "avi" mean something completely different?

Originally posted by Kotor3
I did not read her post, was writing mines. But that is alright because your post are full of assumptions. Fine we won't use it but you cannot say he does not have the ability. Advent provide a good but which you tried to address.



You are missing the whole point which is evident by your responses. What are saber skills without use of the force. As was stated Mace was not the only user of Vaapad. Other users of Vaapad could not take down Sidious but Mace did. Get it he was powerful in the force which amplified his skills and abilities to a great degree.

How great? He was able to stand up to Sidious and defeat his in saber combat and resist his force lighting.



Oh, look another one of your assumptions. At least I state when I am putting in my opinions.

First of all, Anakin was already there when Sidious unleash his force lighting. Second, he was defeated before Anakin came in. Sidious took a chance that Anakin would help him if he did not, then Mace and Anakin would have killed him.

If you watch the scene closely Sidious only let down his guard and started pleading for his life when he saw Anakin pleading with Mace to let him live.



Then stop including yours. You are confusing yourself. Dooku never did because he new what the outcome would be. Point Dooku would get pwned by Sidious.




I am starting to forget would you are even arguing here. Simple point is he lost to Anakin. He was able to stand up for a while, he used the force and droids to assist and in the end die.



No I understand quite clear it is you who do not. You cannot prove that Anakin could do the same to Mace. Mace could defeat everyone Anakin and Dooku defeated. Anakin and Dooku could not defeat Sidious. Simple!



Maybe Anakin can. He can surely compete with them. No argument. But fights do not just include saber combat. We are talking about an all out fight.

I have to go. Catch later. I don't know if you're young or English is just not your native tongue, but your posts are extremely difficult to read. Just clean up your grammar a bit, and I'd be able to take you more seriously.

1. I can say that he can't because you have yet to prove that he can.

2. What are saber skills without the force?.... SABER SKILLS! You answered your own question. He's also the only Vaapad master to face Sidious, so you don't know what would have happened. One couldn't master it and the other never faced Sidious.

3. What assumption? He would have killed Mace if Anakin hadn't shown up. Plain and simple. And the force push is a perfectly reasonable action for the most powerful Sith Lord to take.

4. I'm not. MACE DID NOT AND COULD NOT BEAT SIDIOUS WITH THE FORCE! There is NO disputing that. Do you understand? And what does Dooku fighting Sidious have to do with anything? A>B>C arguments don't mean shit either. Watch, Dooku beat OB1, Anakin embarrassed Dooku, and OB1 beat Anakin. Do you see how that works? Just cause A can beat C and B can't, doesn't mean that A automatically beats B. That's idiotic to assume so.

5. Simple point is that if he engaged Anakin in a force battle, Anakin would have lost and lost badly. But in sabers, even as great as Dooku is, Anakin was better. Again, that's not to show Dooku as weak, but it's meant to show how powerful Anakin is.

6. In pure saber battle, Anakin could beat just about everyone. Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Ob1, Dooku... he could beat almost anyone. That's how good he is. "The most powerful Jedi Knight ever known to the Order." Prove Mace and Sidious can beat him in a saber fight.

7.If Anakin jumps in your shit with his saber, most people won't be able to stall long enough to fire off a force attack.


Advent,

Yea, I just can't figure out how to change it from the one i have now. It won't let me.

Also, if its not too much trouble, and since have more source material, can you explain to him Dooku's force power level, and Anakin's skill level with a blade? If not, that's fine too.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
1. I can say that he can't because you have yet to prove that he can.

You cannot prove that Mace can't so your statement is good because I cannot prove he can. Wrong! It becomes an unknown until one of the statements is proven true.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
2. What are saber skills without the force?.... SABER SKILLS! You answered your own question. He's also the only Vaapad master to face Sidious, so you don't know what would have happened. One couldn't master it and the other never faced Sidious.

I do not even know what to say about your statement above except that it is either silly or ignorant.

I do not know one force user who wields his saber without using the force. The force will enhance the wielder's abilities with there saber. The more powerful the force user the more enhance they will be in their saber skills.

It was amazing for Ulic to wield his saber and defend against a force user who was attacking with there saber when he no longer could use the force. Are you saying that force users fight with there light sabers without using the force and rely purely on skills?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
3. What assumption? He would have killed Mace if Anakin hadn't shown up. Plain and simple. And the force push is a perfectly reasonable action for the most powerful Sith Lord to take.

How is it that your statement is fact that Mace would have been killed by Sidious if Anakin never came? You are speculating which does not count here. Mace already blocked his force lighting and defeated him in a saber fight.

So tell me why wouldn't Mace be able to block the force push? You need to stop quoting as if you are George Lucas.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
4. I'm not. MACE DID NOT AND COULD NOT BEAT SIDIOUS WITH THE FORCE! There is NO disputing that. Do you understand? And what does Dooku fighting Sidious have to do with anything? A>B>C arguments don't mean shit either. Watch, Dooku beat OB1, Anakin embarrassed Dooku, and OB1 beat Anakin. Do you see how that works? Just cause A can beat C and B can't, doesn't mean that A automatically beats B. That's idiotic to assume so.

No one ever said that Mace could defeat Sidious in a force fight. I am starting to think that it is you who have a grammar problem or reading comprehension.

I said stand up to due to Mace being a powerful force user. He was able to stand up to Sidious in a saber battle and block force attacks. That proves that Mace is indeed a powerful force user.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
5. Simple point is that if he engaged Anakin in a force battle, Anakin would have lost and lost badly. But in sabers, even as great as Dooku is, Anakin was better. Again, that's not to show Dooku as weak, but it's meant to show how powerful Anakin is.

So Dooku is stupid and did not use his advantage? Another assumption! You are speculating that Anakin would not be able to resist or block Dooku's force attacks.

Simply, Anakin was to powerful for Dooku and Dooku's force attacks would not take Anakin down.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
6. In pure saber battle, Anakin could beat just about everyone. Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Ob1, Dooku... he could beat almost anyone. That's how good he is. "The most powerful Jedi Knight ever known to the Order." Prove Mace and Sidious can beat him in a saber fight.

Another assumption. I do not have to prove anything you prove that he can defeat anybody in saber fight. Let me guess because of the statement most powerful. Well then Sidious should have defeated Mace is a saber fight. Anakin should have beaten Obi Wan. The most powerful does not always win neither does it mean that Anakin would be able to defeat a well discipline fighter in a saber fight such as Mace or Yoda. His lost to Obi Wan is an example of that.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If Anakin jumps in your shit with his saber, most people won't be able to stall long enough to fire off a force attack.

See response above.

Darth Subjekt you talk as if your grammar is really good. I take the time to try to understand what you are responding to. I post most of the time when I am at work and do not check my statements all the time. What is your execuse?

Originally posted by Kotor3
You cannot prove that Mace can't so your statement is good because I cannot prove he can. Wrong! It becomes an unknown until one of the statements is proven true.Then it's a moot point. I don't know for sure that Sidious doesn't keep an extra lightsaber stashed up his ass, so I can't use that in an argument. Clear?
Dooku's an arrogant, gullible man.
Yeah. Anakin, who couldn't even overpower Obi-Wan, is going to block a Force assault from the man who tossed Kenobi around like a toy twice in the span of fifteen seconds.

Quite simply, no. Had Dooku utilized his offensive Force powers to their fullest extent, he would have dominated Skywalker like he did Obi-Wan. As it is, Anakin got knocked on his ass by a simple kick from the Count, who then proceeded to pointlessly drop a balcony on his fallen foe instead of frying/choking/tossing Anakin himself.

Faunus! When'd you get back?

Originally posted by Kotor3
You cannot prove that Mace can't so your statement is good because I cannot prove he can. Wrong! It becomes an unknown until one of the statements is proven true.

so in that case Obi1, Anakin and all the jedis can possibly block FL until its proven that they cant??!! no thats silly. he cant do it until theres some evidence to suggest that he can.

and looking at his fight with Sidious, when he was really struggling to block his lightning with the help of his lightsaber, its reasonable to assume that if he could block FL with his hands then he would have tried. but the fact was without his lightsaber he had absolutely no defence against FL.




Originally posted by Kotor3
I do not know one force user who wields his saber without using the force. The force will enhance the wielder's abilities with there saber. The more powerful the force user the more enhance they will be in their saber skills.

using the Force to enhance your lightsaber skills is a different skill to using the force to do force attacks. hence Dookus line in AOTC "clearly this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber.."





Originally posted by Kotor3
How is it that your statement is fact that Mace would have been killed by Sidious if Anakin never came? You are speculating which does not count here. Mace already blocked his force lighting and defeated him in a saber fight.

So tell me why wouldn't Mace be able to block the force push?

1. He needed his lightsaber to block FL. his lightsaber would be useless against a Force push.

2. Sidious was simply more powerful than Mace and more knowledgable in the Force.

3. If Kar Vastor can throw Mace around like a ragdoll with the Force, what do you think the most powerful sith lord in history could do to him with the force???




Originally posted by Kotor3
So Dooku is stupid and did not use his advantage? Another assumption! You are speculating that Anakin would not be able to resist or block Dooku's force attacks.

according to Nick Gillard Dooku was overconfident that he could beat anakin. so by the time he realised what he was up against it was too late to use his advantages against Anakin.

we saw in the animated movie, that even though Anakin could match Dooku with Sabers, he was outclassed with the force. not to mention that even by ROTS he culdnt even overpower Obi1 with the Force!!!

Originally posted by Kotor3

I never disagreed. You just supported my point. Anakin and Obi Wan were equals. Mace is not there equal but superior.


no uv misunderstood. they are equals only when fighting each other. beacuse they know each others moves so well.

when fighting a different opponent they are certainly not equals. Anakin is much more powerful. as we saw in their fight against Dooku. by defeating Dooku Anakin did something Obi1 could never do, and showed hes clearly Obi1s superior.

so again theres no proof Mace is Anakins superior in any way.

DARTH POWER we are not going to agree on this one. You are saying that logically your statements make sense which I do not agree with.

Your example of Dooku not using force attacks on Anakin but on Obi Wan is not a good one. Here is why, Anakin is not Obi Wan, as you stated and I agree Anakin is much more powerful in the force. In the ROTS novel I believe it was stated that Dooku soon realizes that Anakin was holding back during the saber battle and still Dooku could not counter with an offense.

Why did not Dooku use his force powers then as he saw he was being overpowered in a saber battle?

Power and strength are different. Power can reside in a place but not be developed or used. Strength is developed power, power that is trained and can be used.

Anakin's strength in the force was enough for him to stand up to Dooku. Anakin's power is what allowed him to overpower Dooku. As for Dooku arrogance, this is what would separate him from Mace a Jedi who would not display such weaknesses.

If you want to say that Anakin is as strong in the force as Mace as of ROTS, I disagree. He is more power but that power is undeveloped. If developed his strength would vastly exceed that of Mace's strength in the force.

Lastly, I do not agree and I already given the example of Ulic, a force user always uses the force with fighting even with sabers. Dooku is an old man and Yoda is old and short. Without the force please explain how they would have been able to fight the way they did in there encounter with each other.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Why did not Dooku use his force powers then as he saw he was being overpowered in a saber battle?


ROTS Novel: Anakin "in the zone" vs Dooku



Basically Anakin never gave Dooku the chance with an onslaught of attacks.

Originally posted by Kotor3

Why did not Dooku use his force powers then as he saw he was being overpowered in a saber battle?

it was too late by then.. he was being badly overpowered at that point. but as we saw in the movie he could have taken anakin earlier on in the fight when he kicked him onto his rear. if he uses his superior force skills earlier on in the fight then Dooku would certainly have a decent chance against anakin. but as the fight progresses anakin gets stronger, and harder to fend off.

also just out of interest in the novel after taunting anakin, dooku was able to fend off anakins attacks until palpatine intervened and gave anakin confidence in his abilities and "permission" to let lose. after that Elite Hunters passage comes into play.


Originally posted by Kotor3
Lastly, I do not agree and I already given the example of Ulic, a force user always uses the force with fighting even with sabers. Dooku is an old man and Yoda is old and short. Without the force please explain how they would have been able to fight the way they did in there encounter with each other.

of course they use the force to help them with saber fighting. iv already sed this. but their skills to use the force with sabers and without sabers are Different skills. every one on these boards agrees to that. thats why before each thread we have who wuld win 1. sabers, 2. force, 3. all out.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
it was too late by then.. he was being badly overpowered at that point. but as we saw in the movie he could have taken anakin earlier on in the fight when he kicked him onto his rear. if he uses his superior force skills earlier on in the fight then Dooku would certainly have a decent chance against anakin. but as the fight progresses anakin gets stronger, and harder to fend off.

also just out of interest in the novel after taunting anakin, dooku was able to fend off anakins attacks until palpatine intervened and gave anakin confidence in his abilities and "permission" to let lose. after that Elite Hunters passage comes into play.

I finally can I agree with your statements made above, DARTH POWER. I personally do not believe Dooku could have taken Anakin at all at this particular time in Anakin's growth as a jedi. He definitely would have had a better chance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
of course they use the force to help them with saber fighting. iv already sed this. but their skills to use the force with sabers and without sabers are Different skills. every one on these boards agrees to that. thats why before each thread we have who wuld win 1. sabers, 2. force, 3. all out.

Ok, I do not include saber battles without force in my threads because if Dooku did not use the force to enhance his skills with a saber, Anakin would destroy him due to there age difference. No competition at all.

This brings us back to Mace. Whereas Dooku was superior in force techniques not strength I say Mace is superior in his strength in the force not power.

Anakin was not developed enough to defeat somone such as Mace who's strength in the force or developed power exceeded that of Anakin's at the time.

Kotor3 when we say who wins in saber fighting, that includes their force enhanced strength, speed precision and reflexes to aid them in the saber fight.

also dnt underestimate dookus force enhanced strength. he was able to block simultaneous strikes by both Obi1 and Anakin with one arm.. and he kicks Anakin back quite far landing him on his rear.

not to mention in Dark Rendevouz Yoda calls Dooku the Strongest and Most Learned in the Force of all at the temple..

So im not sure where you get this idea that Mace is superior in Force Strength to Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kotor3 when we say who wins in saber fighting, that includes their force enhanced strength, speed precision and reflexes to aid them in the saber fight.

Darth Power you definitely confused me with your previous statements. It did not seem to me that you were stating that especially after I made the statement so many times. Ok, that is good to know.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
also dnt underestimate dookus force enhanced strength. he was able to block simultaneous strikes by both Obi1 and Anakin with one arm.. and he kicks Anakin back quite far landing him on his rear.

not to mention in Dark Rendevouz Yoda calls Dooku the Strongest and Most Learned in the Force of all at the temple..

So im not sure where you get this idea that Mace is superior in Force Strength to Dooku.

Here is my question, is Mace inferior or equal to Dooku when it comes to the force?

Kotor3, you are without a doubt one of the most ignorant people I've encountered on here. You don't listen, use poor logic, and then try to insult my grammar when you rattle off statements like, Why did not Dooku use his force powers then as he saw he was being overpowered in a saber battle?

I can't even stand to "debate" with you anymore. It just gives me a headache. So have fun thinking you're right. I would concede the arguments, but I'm sure that someone else will be more than happy to show you the error of your ways.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Kotor3, you are without a doubt one of the most ignorant people I've encountered on here. You don't listen, use poor logic, and then try to insult my grammar when you rattle off statements like, Why did not Dooku use his force powers then as he saw he was being overpowered in a saber battle?

I can't even stand to "debate" with you anymore. It just gives me a headache. So have fun thinking you're right. I would concede the arguments, but I'm sure that someone else will be more than happy to show you the error of your ways.

LOL.

That is exactly how I feel about your response. The best debater I have encounter so far on here is Elite. He was able to use examples that counter my logic to the point that even if I did not agree I could not argue against them. I conceded twice to him in two of my threads. He did so without talking about my grammar or anything else.

So go ahead and keep whining with your name calling and insults.

That's nice.

Sorry if this has been dealt with, but I thought I'd take a whack at it.
1):
Mace had to continue to block the Lightning, and it says (verbatim):

Mace was losing the contest to stop his saber from splitting his own head open. He didn't have the strength to keep blocking the lightning. Sidious, on the other hand, obviously could have kept going, as he uses his lightning again in about fifteen seconds. His 'weakness' was a ploy to make Anakn fall. It worked.
2):
The verb "to quote" (in the infinitive) is rarely used as a reflexive verb. DS is- to the best of my knowledge- not 'quoting as though he his George Lucas'. To do so would mean that he quotes in a manner similar to the creator of Star Wars, who has final say in matters of cannon. He has not made a quote that is similar to GL's, nor do I believe it possible to do so, as quoting is not something unique to GL. He is capable of making assertions as though he is GL (that is to say- as though he has final say on cannon) but I have not found any statements that do not follow in a logical progression from the premises that you have been arguing from- the premises that you yourself have accepted.

I like being needlessly technical in a condescending manner. It lessens the loneliness in my soul. (grammar loneliness)

Originally posted by Kotor3
LOL.

That is exactly how I feel about your response. The best debater I have encounter so far on here is Elite. He was able to use examples that counter my logic to the point that even if I did not agree I could not argue against them. I conceded twice to him in two of my threads. He did so without talking about my grammar or anything else.

So go ahead and keep whining with your name calling and insults. The problem is you don't listen. I don't know how many times I had to stress to you the ambiguity of Revan's character.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Darth Power you definitely confused me with your previous statements. It did not seem to me that you were stating that especially after I made the statement so many times. Ok, that is good to know.


sorry didnt realise i was that confusing. i realised later from your responses that you were not understanding what we mean when were talking about saber fighting. of course they all need the force to help them fight otherwise Yoda would just be a green midget with a small saber.

Originally posted by Kotor3

Here is my question, is Mace inferior or equal to Dooku when it comes to the force?

Im a bit confused what your question means..

If your talking about who has more knowledge of the Focre and about Force attacks like Force Push, Force Lightning, Force Choke and throw him about like a ragdoll, then id say Mace is definetely INFERIOR to Dooku, just in that regard.
Dooku simply has too many feats in this area completely dominating other powerful force users. Weve only seen Mace use Force attacks effectively on Non-Force users like droids, and mainly in the hugely exaggerated CW cartoons.

If on the other hand your asking who the Force is naturally stronger with, as in who has the higher midi-chlorian count then I really dnt knw. Id say they are both naturally very powerful.

If Mace is superior to Dooku at all, then it will mainly be in the lightsaber fight. As Maces Vapaad grants great Speed, is said to be the most Lethal Lightsaber Form, and is especially effective against Darksiders, as he showed with his defeat of Sidious (in the lightsbaer fight.) But Dooku is no slouch in this department either being the ultimate master of Makashi, which sed to be the best form for Blade to Blade combat.

Although you should note that Dark Rendevouz calls Mace and Dooku equals in terms of pure bladework, and Obsessions seemed to confirm that.

Originally posted by Tangible God
The problem is you don't listen. I don't know how many times I had to stress to you the ambiguity of Revan's character.

Thank you for bring that to my attention Tangible. I really did not know that. I find it very entertaining that people like you try to say someone does not listen because you cannot make valid agruments.

Yet Elite in the same threads that you were in was able to make valid agruments that I had to concede to. Save your lectures for yourself.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
sorry didnt realise i was that confusing. i realised later from your responses that you were not understanding what we mean when were talking about saber fighting. of course they all need the force to help them fight otherwise Yoda would just be a green midget with a small saber.



Im a bit confused what your question means..

If your talking about who has more knowledge of the Focre and about Force attacks like Force Push, Force Lightning, Force Choke and throw him about like a ragdoll, then id say Mace is definetely INFERIOR to Dooku, just in that regard.
Dooku simply has too many feats in this area completely dominating other powerful force users. Weve only seen Mace use Force attacks effectively on Non-Force users like droids, and mainly in the hugely exaggerated CW cartoons.

If on the other hand your asking who the Force is naturally stronger with, as in who has the higher midi-chlorian count then I really dnt knw. Id say they are both naturally very powerful.

If Mace is superior to Dooku at all, then it will mainly be in the lightsaber fight. As Maces Vapaad grants great Speed, is said to be the most Lethal Lightsaber Form, and is especially effective against Darksiders, as he showed with his defeat of Sidious (in the lightsbaer fight.) But Dooku is no slouch in this department either being the ultimate master of Makashi, which sed to be the best form for Blade to Blade combat.

Although you should note that Dark Rendevouz calls Mace and Dooku equals in terms of pure bladework, and Obsessions seemed to confirm that.

Thank you for your response Darth Power, that was my whole point of making this thread. In other threads it seem that people had Dooku and Mace as equals or one over the other. So I put Mace in a situation facing two people that Dooku did to see who would win.

My point of saying that Anakin would not win against Mace was not to show that Mace was superior to Dooku force wise but a different type of fighter that would not demonstrate some of the weaknesses that Dooku did. Which you mention such as arrogance.

Of course that is my opinion and I could be wrong. People in this thread have brought valid points as to why Anakin could win. Overall I can agree with your last statements and thanks for responding.

Fair enough. I can understand that Mace would probably do better against Anakin than Dooku did, on the basis of better physical conditioning, and a more lethal lightsaber form could help him to withstand Anakins almost unstoppable onslaught.

Not to mention Mace knows exactly what he would be up against with Anakin so would take him very seriously from the beginning.

On the other hand I see Dooku as having a better chance at taking on both Anakin and Obi1 together. As Dooku was able to keep seperating them with his far superior Force moves. I dnt really see Mace doing that, and so I can see Mace being in serious trouble if pitted against both these very accomplished swordsmen together.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fair enough. I can understand that Mace would probably do better against Anakin than Dooku did, on the basis of better physical conditioning, and a more lethal lightsaber form could help him to withstand Anakins almost unstoppable onslaught.

Not to mention Mace knows exactly what he would be up against with Anakin so would take him very seriously from the beginning.

On the other hand I see Dooku as having a better chance at taking on both Anakin and Obi1 together. As Dooku was able to keep seperating them with his far superior Force moves. I dnt really see Mace doing that, and so I can see Mace being in serious trouble if pitted against both these very accomplished swordsmen together.

Everyone seems to agree with that line of thought due to Mace lack of force techniques or knowledge which I can understand.

Well that is why I included Yoda in this discussion. If they win they take on Yoda. As of now, no one seems to think that the duo can take on Yoda. Which I can understand. Yoda is a whole different level. What are your thoughts?

well yeah I guess Yoda could do to Obi1 what Dooku did to him. then it would be a saber fight Yoda vs. Anakin. Anakin would get very frustrated at Yoda jumping around him and would most likely lose. also good chance Yoda could take out Anakin with a Force move as well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well yeah I guess Yoda could do to Obi1 what Dooku did to him. then it would be a saber fight Yoda vs. Anakin. Anakin would get very frustrated at Yoda jumping around him and would most likely lose. also good chance Yoda could take out Anakin with a Force move as well. While that is a possibility, Anakin would def put up a hell of a good fight against Yoda in SABERS ONLY and could win if he stayed in control of his emotions, as he was with Dooku. He's obviously physically stronger and has far more stamina. Look how winded Yoda was when toying with Dooku in AoTC. He wasn't even going all out and he was virtually panting midway. The problem with Yoda's form is that is leaves various openings while jumping around, and someone of Anakin's skill could capitalize on that.

Force fight - no contest. Yoda smashes the young Jedi.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
While that is a possibility, Anakin would def put up a hell of a good fight against Yoda in SABERS ONLY and could win if he stayed in control of his emotions, as he was with Dooku. He's obviously physically stronger and has far more stamina. Look how winded Yoda was when toying with Dooku in AoTC. He wasn't even going all out and he was virtually panting midway. The problem with Yoda's form is that is leaves various openings while jumping around, and someone of Anakin's skill could capitalize on that.

Force fight - no contest. Yoda smashes the young Jedi.

hmm.. I was actually lookin at the ATOC novel the other day, and it states Yoda was exhausted after his fight with Dooku.

But still i see Anakin having a better chance against Sidious in Sabers than against Yoda.. Anakins style doesnt have the elegance and precision that makashi does. and I can just see Anakin with his personality getting really frustrated at Yoda jumping all around him.

Talking in Sabers of course. with the Force Yoda or Sidious would kill Anakin.

Well it should have also stated that Yoda doesn't want to hurt Dooku, but only capture him.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Well it should have also stated that Yoda doesn't want to hurt Dooku, but only capture him.

well it did state yoda saying Capturing Dooku was the mission. but nothing about NOT hurting him AT ALL..

i mean seriously do you think Yoda would not even have hurt Dooku a little bit?? not even a cut like Dooku gave to Obi1??

technically he could have chopped his arms and legs off and still CAPTURE him..

Dookus below Yoda for sure.. no question. but hes proabably like 8 tenths of him.. kind of like Vader is to Sidious(except Vader might be an easier kill by Sidious due to his suits weakness to Force Lightning).

which means Dooku does put up a decent fight first before getting killed, and wnt be such an easy kill by Yoda with both hands tied behind his back like people are trying to make out.