NJO Luke runs the gauntlet (Saber Battle)

Master Crimzon

Well, I believe that he should probably take out Ulic and Exar Kun with relative ease. Sure, they're both good, but they don't have anything to put them on a level with Luke. In his fight with Dooku, Luke takes him with some difficulty. He'll probably start to have a really tough time when fighting Anakin, the 'strongest and fastest Jedi' of his generation- capable of tooling Dooku when at full power, apparently decimate Cin Drallig one-handed (Drallig, the Temple's battlemaster, a master of all forms save for Vaapad/Juyo), and various other things such as defeating Ventress, an exceptional Dark Jedi, when pissed off.

Mace? I think that he is actually weaker than Anakin when his Vaapad doesn't come into play. Sure, with it, he can beat Anakin, but without it, he's an exceptionally fast and deadly Jedi- but lacking his foremost advantage, seeing as Luke is not a dark sider. Even his other advantage, Shatterpoint, is countered by the fact that Luke also has it.

Yoda will be where Luke will REALLY have to work for the win, if he even does win. Yoda is described as a 'whirlwind of destruction', the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known'- he is amazingly fast, and the AotC novel describes his strength as forcing Dooku to use two hands to block Yoda's attacks, when Dooku's style, Makashi, utilizes one-handed combat.

Which leaves us at DE Sidious. I hardly believe that even at full power Luke will be able to WTFpwn Sidious in pure saber combat. This Sidious is the one who moves fast enough to not even be seen by Leia, a force sensitive with incredible force attunement, in combat, tooled and disarmed DE Luke (Luke could only match him when he was empowered by external means, and even then, Sidious refers to the duel as a 'game', implying he wasn't even taking it seriously), decimate three of the Order's greatest swordsman- Agen Kolar is even referred to be one of the greatest bladesbeings in the Jedi Order's history in the RotS novel- nearly overwhelm Mace Windu, and stalemate Yoda in saber combat. Aside from the first feat, all of those feats are actually before his Dark Empire incarnation, where he is stronger, more skilled, and faster than his original self. A fatigued Luke can't take him.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Taven
Yeah, that's pretty much what you said about an hour ago; no further input necessary.

By the way, he still falls at Ulic.

I do not know who you are referring to but is there anyone on the list that Luke would win against in your opinion? I am waiting for people to start replying to your statement.

Taven

Definitely, the order's pretty misplaced actually, what it should appear as would be:

Anakin
Dooku
Mace
Yoda
DE Sidious
Ulic
Exar Kun

And he still falls at Ulic.

Master Crimzon

Oh, god. Not again.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Taven
Definitely, the order's pretty misplaced actually, what it should appear as would be:

Anakin
Dooku
Mace
Yoda
DE Sidious
Ulic
Exar Kun

And he still falls at Ulic.

Ok now I see. Any reason as why Exar Kun is the top dog? I thought the PT era was the best in terms of saber combat.

The order I chose does not represent who I feel is better in saber combat. It is more is line with what combo I felt would make things more difficult for Luke.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, I believe that he should probably take out Ulic and Exar Kun with relative ease. Sure, they're both good, but they don't have anything to put them on a level with Luke. In his fight with Dooku, Luke takes him with some difficulty. He'll probably start to have a really tough time when fighting Anakin, the 'strongest and fastest Jedi' of his generation- capable of tooling Dooku when at full power, apparently decimate Cin Drallig one-handed (Drallig, the Temple's battlemaster, a master of all forms save for Vaapad/Juyo), and various other things such as defeating Ventress, an exceptional Dark Jedi, when pissed off.

Mace? I think that he is actually weaker than Anakin when his Vaapad doesn't come into play. Sure, with it, he can beat Anakin, but without it, he's an exceptionally fast and deadly Jedi- but lacking his foremost advantage, seeing as Luke is not a dark sider. Even his other advantage, Shatterpoint, is countered by the fact that Luke also has it.

Yoda will be where Luke will REALLY have to work for the win, if he even does win. Yoda is described as a 'whirlwind of destruction', the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known'- he is amazingly fast, and the AotC novel describes his strength as forcing Dooku to use two hands to block Yoda's attacks, when Dooku's style, Makashi, utilizes one-handed combat.

Which leaves us at DE Sidious. I hardly believe that even at full power Luke will be able to WTFpwn Sidious in pure saber combat. This Sidious is the one who moves fast enough to not even be seen by Leia, a force sensitive with incredible force attunement, in combat, tooled and disarmed DE Luke (Luke could only match him when he was empowered by external means, and even then, Sidious refers to the duel as a 'game', implying he wasn't even taking it seriously), decimate three of the Order's greatest swordsman- Agen Kolar is even referred to be one of the greatest bladesbeings in the Jedi Order's history in the RotS novel- nearly overwhelm Mace Windu, and stalemate Yoda in saber combat. Aside from the first feat, all of those feats are actually before his Dark Empire incarnation, where he is stronger, more skilled, and faster than his original self. A fatigued Luke can't take him.

Exar Kun seems like a saber beast when I read up on him. How is it that Luke takes him so easily?

This is from Wookieepedia: Do known how much truth is mention -
Exar Kun was extremely skilled in the use of lightsabers, specializing in double-bladed lightsaber combat and the Jar'Kai style of fighting, though he more frequently used the former.Kun's lightsaber, unlike nearly all Sith lightsabers that followed it, was blue. He could also independently change the length and strength of the blades, causing confusion and over/under-compensation in his combat opponents, giving him a strong advantage in his lightsaber fighting.

Taven

Technically? Either, by virtue of existing evidence, are his superior by miles.

Exar Kun was declared Vodo Siosk Bass's greatest student in 600 years of training his Order in saber combat, possessed the technical ingenuity required in creating a form of combat for a weapon he'd never before heard of, and possesses an astronomically enormous advantage in the sense that the style died with him, and as such would be completely alien to Luke as a lightsaber combatant.

Ulic Qel Droma, when a decade out of practise with a lightsaber, physically past his prime, cut off from the Force (and as such lacking the many advantages that the Force provides (physical enhancements, greater reaction speed, precognition) and being forced to rely on his natural human senses when in the past he would have always relied on his ability to sense his surroundings with the Force), and holding back, was capable of stalemating an extremely formidable darkside driven Jedi in a saber duel, a Jedi so formidable as a combatant in fact, that previously she had been capable of slaughtering multiple Massassi Warriors (who were Force Sensitive alchemical creations that were directly stated to be capable of using the darkside with skill and precision and were created to combat Jedi and guard Sadow's secrets) with her bare hands in seconds. All of that, while having been forced to rely on one quality: his natural grasp of the lightsaber, and that alone.

For any non-Force Sensitive to be able to compete with a Force sensitive in direct combat is a monumental achievement, and even then, it would usually only be achieved by relying on factors such as technology, or the element of surprise, physical superiority, or even a natural trait they possess as being one of their species. Ulic had none of that; he wasn't even in physical shape or in practise with his weapon, and he wasn't fighting to kill either, and as established, Sylar wasn't just your average Jedi, she was an elite one. Quite frankly, the showing makes Ulic one of the most naturally gifted Lightsaber Users there is, and it can't even be put into words how ridiculously he outclasses Luke in the department.

They both do in fact; Luke hasn't ever given us real reason to assume that he was particularly skilled with a lightsaber, so based on what we know, he's outclassed.

Now that being said, I'm not going to deny that Luke's definitely superior to the two of these when it comes to force prowess, by no small margin in fact, and I'll be the first to claim that Force prowess makes miles more of a difference than technical ability when it comes to saber combat. However, Exar and Ulic aren't exactly slouches in that department either.

Ulic was already capable of blasting back two elite Jedi (his brother Cay and friend Tott) about thirty feat without any real difficulty whatsoever when not at his full level of power, and later, when he gains his Sith amulet, he skyrockets in power, to the point where he was described as rippling in darkside energy.

Exar Kun, as you know, was capable of absolutely decimating skilled darkside using Massassi Warriors with his amulet, was capable of freezing tens of thousands of beings in place, instantly, with absolute ease, and later, able to drain the Force from an entire race (in some hours).

Neither of them are that far below Luke in Force ability based on what we know, yet absolutely outclass him in technical ability.

With Ulic for instance, if he can perform like he did against someone like Sylar without even a connection to the Force as well as under all the conditions I listed, I doubt the superiority Luke possesses in Force ability will make that much of a difference against a powerful Force Sensitive, darkside driven, amulet wielding, physically in shape, Master Swordsman, going for the kill, in practise Ulic Qel Droma. And Exar of course was already capable of competing with Ulic before he even created his new, preferred style, which Luke would be completely unprepared against.

Now I'm not saying it won't be close, but either Ulic or Exar would take Luke in a lightsaber battle, and not a single person here has provided an argument to the contrary.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Taven
Technically? Either, by virtue of existing evidence, are his superior by miles.

Exar Kun was declared Vodo Siosk Bass's greatest student in 600 years of training his Order in saber combat, possessed the technical ingenuity required in creating a form of combat for a weapon he'd never before heard of, and possesses an astronomically enormous advantage in the sense that the style died with him, and as such would be completely alien to Luke as a lightsaber combatant.
Oh, look, fanboyism and stupidity. From you, I'm not surprised
Considering Luke uses a style just as unfamiliar and Exar got his style and weapon from a holocron, WRONG!

Against...Sylvar. Someone with no great feats whatsoever besides 'kill some Massassi.' WOW! As opposed to the guy who decimates an army of elite warriors with notihng more than saber ability

Sylvar was an 'elite' Jedi. He still uses this argument. Someone holding off-not defeating, but blocking a few blows from- and running away from a mindless berserker outclasses the guy moving so fast he can't even be seen

Lying idiot. Luke was able to take on Palpatine, described as a master of the saber and as of DE was described as 'even more skilled with a Jedi lightsaber' than he was with the Force. Just stated to be considerable indeed.

Translation: I can't argue that, so let's downplay Luke elsewhere!

And? You just admitted Luke>him in the Force by far

All but the second accomplished with no skill or power of his own. And?

Yeah, bullshit.
Luke's prowess alone allowed him to defeat five Yuuzhan Vong Slayers at once. Kyp Durron couldn't even take one. So...in effect, with an opponent he couldn't perceive in the Force, he takes on five elites and wins. And then kills Shimrra. While injured. And had Corran Horn realizing that all Corran would be good for in combat would be to just hold Luke's cloak for him. And defeat Welk with nothing but ease when Welk could defeat Saba without much trouble. And, oh, yes, defeating Jacen in saber combat. Jacen 'I can take out Kyle Katarn with three other Jedi helping him.'

Yawn. Bullshit. Luke uses a style they're just as unfamiliar against as he had to build his from ground up. Luke can also see shatterpoints, has demonstrated superior speed, strength, force aptitude and skill and that all you can prove to Ulic's ability is "B-b-b-bit he held off a berserker without the Force!" when Luke has defeated numerous skilled opponents and performed numerous feats with nothing more than saber ability alone.
With only one hand, his bad hand, Luke took out Lomi Plo with incredible ease. In regards to greatest duelists, Caedus considered himself second only to Luke. Possibly in history. Let's not forget Luke's defeat of Lumiya when he was serious, or Welk, or his matching of Palpatine, his slicing through hundreds of Yuuzhan Vong in the Sacred Precinct, against the Jensaari, his mastering Jar'Kai without any formal training...
Need I go on?

Good to have you back. This village missed its idiot

Elite Hunter

I can see Luke potentially falling around Anakin or Mace depending how much difficulty he has with Ulic,Kun and Dooku, none of them are exactly push overs but I don't see him making it past a full rested Yoda(if he even makes it that far) and if he can get to Sidious he falls pretty easily.

I am a little surprise that the account has been banned already. Considering he didn't just make it today.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Kotor3
Exar Kun seems like a saber beast when I read up on him. How is it that Luke takes him so easily?

This is from Wookieepedia: Do known how much truth is mention -
Exar Kun was extremely skilled in the use of lightsabers, specializing in double-bladed lightsaber combat and the Jar'Kai style of fighting, though he more frequently used the former.Kun's lightsaber, unlike nearly all Sith lightsabers that followed it, was blue. He could also independently change the length and strength of the blades, causing confusion and over/under-compensation in his combat opponents, giving him a strong advantage in his lightsaber fighting.

Wiki is not canonical, and tends to overblow everyone's prowess with a lightsaber; Kun has done absolutely nothing than "ZOMG he invented a new style!!!!" to put him on a level of even the PT's greats. He's good in the force, but his lightsaber prowess isn't -that- incredible. He's a skilled lightsaber user- but he's got nothing on Luke.

Don't trust "Taven", either. He's Nebaris, a notorious sock who was banned dozens of times and crazy ancient sith/Bane fanboy. Just because he says Ulic > DE Sidious doesn't make it true.

And nah, Lightsnake. I didn't miss him. I actually thought he was gone for a while...

Kotor3

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Wiki is not canonical, and tends to overblow everyone's prowess with a lightsaber; Kun has done absolutely nothing than "ZOMG he invented a new style!!!!" to put him on a level of even the PT's greats. He's good in the force, but his lightsaber prowess isn't -that- incredible. He's a skilled lightsaber user- but he's got nothing on Luke.

Don't trust "Taven", either. He's Nebaris, a notorious sock who was banned dozens of times and crazy ancient sith/Bane fanboy. Just because he says Ulic > DE Sidious doesn't make it true.

And nah, Lightsnake. I didn't miss him. I actually thought he was gone for a while...

I am learning. When it comes to Dooku can someone name some impressive feats of his and please do not mention Yoda who did not want to harm him and Mace who did master his saber style at the time of their duel.

Besides a quote that says he was skilled and his fight with Obi Wan and Anakin, I do not see how Dooku is so impressive with the saber.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Kotor3
I am learning. When it comes to Dooku can someone name some impressive feats of his and please do not mention Yoda who did not want to harm him and Mace who did master his saber style at the time of their duel.

Besides a quote that says he was skilled and his fight with Obi Wan and Anakin, I do not see how Dooku is so impressive with the saber.

Sure. For starters, the RotS novel called him one of the greatest Jedi in the Order's history, and an even superior Lord of the Sith; he was the complete master of Makashi, a form specially created for saber-to-saber dueling. He was able to tool Asajj Ventress, an impressive Dark Jedi, in lightsaber combat (while logically not trying to kill her). In the time of the Clone Wars, Yoda said that only he and Mace could be a match for him on equal ground; he also, despite being fatigued (fighting three formidable Jedi, one after the other) defeated both Sora Bulq and Tholme, two prominent Jedi Masters. He could also defeat General Grievous in lightsaber combat- General Grievous, a being who killed lots, and lots of Jedi, caused Mace to take him very seriously (even though Grievous was rooted to one location, while Mace had free movement), and could utilize up to 20 strikes per second. He is constantly referred to as a 'legendary duelist'.

Yeah, he's exceptional. Damned exceptional.

Enyalus

Let me say that I haven't read any of the posts besides KOTOR3's initial one...but what I'm saying right now is that with no rest inbetween, Luke falls at Anakin. Dooku will have exhausted him. Anakin will destroy him. If you gave him rest inbetween, well, then he clears this pretty easily.

Master Crimzon

I never, EVER said that Dooku would be able to defeat Luke, or even give him a tough time. I gave you feats and quotes. Now, tell me: What does Exar Kun have over that?

General Grievous overwhelmed Obi-Wan's supposedly impenetrable defense with his 20 strikes per second, causing Obi-Wan to resort to a quick incapacitation move rather than try to block his strikes; he easily defeated Jedi Council Members such as Adi Gallia, for instance, and managed to combat 5 Jedi- two of them council members, nontheless- and pwn them. These Jedi include Shaak Ti, renowned as an amazing swordsman and called "the most cunning Jedi I ever met" by Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Ki-Adi-Mundi. And Grievous defeated them all without ever truly being in danger. Grievous also defeated Durge, an immortal bounty hunter, and Asajj Ventress, an impressive dark warrior simultaneously. He also fought Mace Windu in saber combat and managed to hold his own, despite being rooted to a single location on a moving vehicle, while Mace was able to move freely. Now, explain why do you think he won't be capable of taking down the likes Kun in pure saber combat.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure. That he blocks maybe two strikes from a mindless berserker and spends the vast majority of the fight running away? He doesn't stand and fight her, not even CLOSE.

Dooku is at the LEAST, on par with Exar in combat. The people Dooku tends to go against are people with some actual backing to them, unlike Exar sans Ulic.

If you're not impressed by Dooku's resume but you're impressed by parrying a few strikes from a mindless Jedi of mediocre skill from the start...that's odd.

You are missing my point Lightsnake, whatever you say about the force user being mindless or whatever the case they were a force user and Ulic was not at the time. Explain how that is not impressive? Can you name ones who would do the same. To block one or two attacks is that not impressive? Why would it be mention in the story if it was not a mark or testament as to how skill Ulic was.

I recognize Dooku as a great swordsman but tell me who on this thread could not defeat Grievous or Ventress?

Dooku may have more combat feats mention in history or story line but they are not feats that make his so much better than Ulic or Exar Kun. Yoda and Mace may be a different story.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I never, EVER said that Dooku would be able to defeat Luke, or even give him a tough time. I gave you feats and quotes. Now, tell me: What does Exar Kun have over that?

General Grievous overwhelmed Obi-Wan's supposedly impenetrable defense with his 20 strikes per second, causing Obi-Wan to resort to a quick incapacitation move rather than try to block his strikes; he easily defeated Jedi Council Members such as Adi Gallia, for instance, and managed to combat 5 Jedi- two of them council members, nontheless- and pwn them. These Jedi include Shaak Ti, renowned as an amazing swordsman and called "the most cunning Jedi I ever met" by Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Ki-Adi-Mundi. And Grievous defeated them all without ever truly being in danger. Grievous also defeated Durge, an immortal bounty hunter, and Asajj Ventress, an impressive dark warrior simultaneously. He also fought Mace Windu in saber combat and managed to hold his own, despite being rooted to a single location on a moving vehicle, while Mace was able to move freely. Now, explain why do you think he won't be capable of taking down the likes Kun in pure saber combat.

Besides Mace are you stating that the other force users mention in your post are on Kun's level and above? I need to have that clarified.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Kotor3
You are missing my point Lightsnake, whatever you say about the force user being mindless or whatever the case they were a force user and Ulic was not at the time. Explain how that is not impressive?
It is. It doesn't elevate him to godly standards, though.

By this logic, Jango is one of the best fighters ever. Nevermind Trebor's skill level from the start..

Most of the New Jedi Order are trained to fight without use of the Force, so them...Oh, and Jerec

Nothing indicates it's meant to point out Ulic's skill. It's there for Sylvar's redemption, period

Point here being? Grievous and Ventress could easily destroy most saber duelists and force users

He's lost to Yoda and is knowingly inferior. Also, did you just imply that Ulic and Kun as duelists are superior to Yoda and Mace?
And I'm afraid Dooku's feats put him on the level of Ulic and Exar.

blocking two strikes from a mindless lunatic swinging her saber like a club is not enough to put you above the level of Yoda and Mace, who routinely perform incredible feats during the Clone Wars?

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Kotor3
Besides Mace are you stating that the other force users mention in your post are on Kun's level and above? I need to have that clarified.

Well, Sora Bulq is a master of Vaapad, referred to as one of the greatest swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history. Dooku beat him while simultaneously fending off another powerful Jedi Master; and I daresay that Bulq would pose a challenge to either Ulic or Kun.

As for Grievous, no, no single opponent he ever defeated is on par with Ulic or Kun. However, I cannot see either of them competing (and TOOLING) five powerful Jedi. Nor can I see them holding their own for as long as Grievous did against Mace. I cannot see them managing not to crumble underneath Grievous' twenty strikes per second. There are two real ways to fight Grievous- either hold your own against his strikes, which would require excellent defense. The CW Cartoon suggests that Dooku used this, as did Obi-Wan. Or, you can match him in offense and speed. Mace did that. You need to be as fast and as skilled as Mace, or to have Obi-Wan's prodigious defense, in order to compete with the General- as far as I know, neither Kun nor Ulic actually displayed that ability.

Darth Subjekt

You don't think tanking a team Ani/OB1 twice is impressive? Stalemating Yoda? Almost killing OB1 who's trained in Soresu (spelling?) for 10 years? Not to mentions countless feats from comics and books. Dooku mastered the finest lightsaber form to the highest possible degree. As a Jedi, he routinely tooled Mace, and as Lord of the Sith - he was noted as becoming even greater.

So really, I pose the question to you. What has Ulic or Kun done that puts them on Dooku's level?

Lt. Valerian

Kotor3

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It is. It doesn't elevate him to godly standards, though.

By this logic, Jango is one of the best fighters ever. Nevermind Trebor's skill level from the start..

Most of the New Jedi Order are trained to fight without use of the Force, so them...Oh, and Jerec

Nothing indicates it's meant to point out Ulic's skill. It's there for Sylvar's redemption, period

Point here being? Grievous and Ventress could easily destroy most saber duelists and force users

He's lost to Yoda and is knowingly inferior. Also, did you just imply that Ulic and Kun as duelists are superior to Yoda and Mace?
And I'm afraid Dooku's feats put him on the level of Ulic and Exar.

blocking two strikes from a mindless lunatic swinging her saber like a club is not enough to put you above the level of Yoda and Mace, who routinely perform incredible feats during the Clone Wars?

Lightsnake: It is. It doesn't elevate him to godly standards, though. By this logic, Jango is one of the best fighters ever. Nevermind Trebor's skill level from the start..

Kotor: No one said godly status just that it is an impressive feat which you agreed to.

Lightsnake: Most of the New Jedi Order are trained to fight without use of the Force, so them...Oh, and Jerec

Kotor3: Ok, I thought a Jedi was always taught how to fight without use of the force. Did not know that was something new.

Lightsnake: Nothing indicates it's meant to point out Ulic's skill. It's there for Sylvar's redemption, period

Kotor3: I do not see how it does not, but you already agreed that it is an impressive feat. Still for some reasons you do not leave it alone and try to downgrade the feat.

Lightsnake: Point here being? Grievous and Ventress could easily destroy most saber duelists and force users

Kotor3: Fine no one is disagreeing. But they cannot do it to anyone mention in this thread. If they could that would automatically put Dooku above them.

Lightsnake: He's lost to Yoda and is knowingly inferior. Also, did you just imply that Ulic and Kun as duelists are superior to Yoda and Mace?
And I'm afraid Dooku's feats put him on the level of Ulic and Exar.

blocking two strikes from a mindless lunatic swinging her saber like a club is not enough to put you above the level of Yoda and Mace, who routinely perform incredible feats during the Clone Wars?

Kotor3: Lets not put words in my month. I never said that were above Mace or Yoda. I said that it would be a matter of opinion between Exar Kun and Dooku.

The fact that you do not think Ulic (even though you already said it is) feat is impressive does not mean it is not.

Darth Subjekt

Originally posted by Kotor3
Lightsnake: It is. It doesn't elevate him to godly standards, though. By this logic, Jango is one of the best fighters ever. Nevermind Trebor's skill level from the start..

Kotor: No one said godly status just that it is an impressive feat which you agreed to.

Lightsnake: Most of the New Jedi Order are trained to fight without use of the Force, so them...Oh, and Jerec

Kotor3: Ok, I thought a Jedi was always taught how to fight without use of the force. Did not know that was something new.

Lightsnake: Nothing indicates it's meant to point out Ulic's skill. It's there for Sylvar's redemption, period

Kotor3: I do not see how it does not, but you already agreed that it is an impressive feat. Still for some reasons you do not leave it alone and try to downgrade the feat.

Lightsnake: Point here being? Grievous and Ventress could easily destroy most saber duelists and force users

Kotor3: Fine no one is disagreeing. But they cannot do it to anyone mention in this thread. If they could that would automatically put Dooku above them.

Lightsnake: He's lost to Yoda and is knowingly inferior. Also, did you just imply that Ulic and Kun as duelists are superior to Yoda and Mace?
And I'm afraid Dooku's feats put him on the level of Ulic and Exar.

blocking two strikes from a mindless lunatic swinging her saber like a club is not enough to put you above the level of Yoda and Mace, who routinely perform incredible feats during the Clone Wars?

Kotor3: Lets not put words in my month. I never said that were above Mace or Yoda. I said that it would be a matter of opinion between Exar Kun and Dooku.

The fact that you do not think Ulic (even though you already said it is) feat is impressive does not mean it is not.

You know you just could have copied and pasted the quote brackets and replied to what he typed instead of typing all his shit out again?

And your opinion of Dooku's feats don't make them so either. That door swings both ways.

Lightsnake

Master Crimzon

Yo, KotOR. Reply to my post, too.

Gideon

"Stalemating Yoda" is a complete misconception, Darth Subjekt. On the two occasions that Yoda engaged Dooku, he used every possible means to not harm the Sith Lord. On Geonosis, he specifically told Windu that Dooku "must be captured" -- and allowed him to escape. On Vjun, despite Dooku's stated thirst for Yoda's death and being empowered by the dark side, he was unable to defeat Yoda in combat, even though the Jedi told him: "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

If Yoda had attacked him like he attacked Dooku's master in RotS, Dooku would have been crushed.

Darth Subjekt

But was he captured? No, he avoided it through blocking his attacks and distracting him, which still lends credit to his combat prowess. No different than Yoda fleeing from Sidious.

Gideon

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
But was he captured? No, he avoided it through blocking his attacks and distracting him, which still lends credit to his combat prowess. No different than Yoda fleeing from Sidious.

You know better than that. Was I dismissing Count Dooku's combat prowess? Hardly. But he's far from a match for Yoda and it is ridiculous to imply as much.

Darth Subjekt

I do. And I never said you dismissed his abilities, nor did I say he was Yoda's equal. I merely stated that forced a draw with Yoda, and called it a stalemate. I know what shoulda, woulda, coulda happened and what did happen. And what did happen was neither of them forced an advantage.

caedusrulesall

Originally posted by Taven
Definitely, the order's pretty misplaced actually, what it should appear as would be:

Anakin
Dooku
Mace
Yoda
DE Sidious
Ulic
Exar Kun

And he still falls at Ulic.

Mr. Nebaris, welcome back. Your opinions are still hopelessly flawed, I see.

And on topic, Luke makes it through to DE Sidious, by which time fatigue has set in and he falls to Palpatine.

Lt. Valerian

edit

Kotor3

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
You know you just could have copied and pasted the quote brackets and replied to what he typed instead of typing all his shit out again?

And your opinion of Dooku's feats don't make them so either. That door swings both ways.

I am back and Darth Subjekt just what is my take because I do not believe you even know.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes. It doesn't make him better than Dooku, though

I was using it as an example. Most old Republic Jedi would be helpless without the Force. Issue is, Ulic had a good ten years or so to adjust

Because people try to say it makes Ulic near unparalleled with a saber. If he was holding off, say, Qui-Gon, it'd be another story

A>B>C logic rarely works. It does, however, speak volumes for Dooku that he's well above them

The issue is with sabers alone, Dooku is pretty on par with Exar

The same goes for Dooku. Yes, Ulic's feat is impressive. I'd be more impressed, however, if he disarmed a calm Sylvar's attacks.

Lightsnake I am not going to answer all of your post because even though our opinions differ on certain things we both agree that Dooku and Exar are at least on equal terms.

My whole point was that Dooku in my opinion did not have enough feats to be declared better than Exar Kun as Master Crimzon has stated.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, Sora Bulq is a master of Vaapad, referred to as one of the greatest swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history. Dooku beat him while simultaneously fending off another powerful Jedi Master; and I daresay that Bulq would pose a challenge to either Ulic or Kun.

As for Grievous, no, no single opponent he ever defeated is on par with Ulic or Kun. However, I cannot see either of them competing (and TOOLING) five powerful Jedi. Nor can I see them holding their own for as long as Grievous did against Mace. I cannot see them managing not to crumble underneath Grievous' twenty strikes per second. There are two real ways to fight Grievous- either hold your own against his strikes, which would require excellent defense. The CW Cartoon suggests that Dooku used this, as did Obi-Wan. Or, you can match him in offense and speed. Mace did that. You need to be as fast and as skilled as Mace, or to have Obi-Wan's prodigious defense, in order to compete with the General- as far as I know, neither Kun nor Ulic actually displayed that ability.

Force ability is what enables a person to move so efficently with a light saber. To say the Obi Wan had what Exar Kun or Ulic did not is incorrect in my opinion. How could Exar Kun or Ulic not move fast or proficient enough to defeat Grievous? Mace technique and force powers is what made him proficient with the light saber. The same with Obi Wan.

You give lest to Exar Kun and Ulic. These are people who were never defeat at their peak. Mace and Yoda are the only two in PT era that I know could say the same.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Any proof that Dooku was going all out? Plus, whether or not Yoda was going all out, if Doouk didn't block a saber strike, he'd die just the same. A I recall, while in a saber lock, he averted his attention to cause that pillar thing to fall on Anakin and OB1.

When did Dooku join the darkside? Vaapad wouldn't have helped him against a lightside Dooku anyway.

Uh, that padawan Anakin did a lot better than a Jedi Knight Kenobi did, and when that Padawan is the Chosen One, I'd say it counts for a lot. OB1 went down rather quickly, and Anakin had Dooku visibly fatigued. Much tougher than Dooku anticipated.

A mere technicality. So he was able to separate them and take them both down. If he could do it as of ROTS, he could certainly do it to a lesser version of both Jedi.

Any proof that Dooku was going all out? Plus, whether or not Yoda was going all out, if Doouk didn't block a saber strike, he'd die just the same. A I recall, while in a saber lock, he averted his attention to cause that pillar thing to fall on Anakin and OB1.

Gideon already answered your post.

When did Dooku join the darkside? Vaapad wouldn't have helped him against a lightside Dooku anyway.

Since everyone is at there peak the question you did not answer is when did Dooku school Mace at there peaks. This would mean Dooku as a dark user and Mace as a light user.

Uh, that padawan Anakin did a lot better than a Jedi Knight Kenobi did, and when that Padawan is the Chosen One, I'd say it counts for a lot. OB1 went down rather quickly, and Anakin had Dooku visibly fatigued. Much tougher than Dooku anticipated.

What are you taking about? They both were done away with quickly. And Anakin did not last longer. Padawan does not equal Anakin as a Jedi. Much different story as we know.

A mere technicality. So he was able to separate them and take them both down. If he could do it as of ROTS, he could certainly do it to a lesser version of both Jedi.

We are taking about sabers and force used to enhance light saber skills. Dooku used the force in both encounters. In the last encouter he used distractions and force to separate. When it came down to saber to saber contact with Anakin he lost.

Elite Hunter

A word of advice kotor3, use the edit button to make one big post or two posts at most because people don't like triple or quadruple posts.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
A word of advice kotor3, use the edit button to make one big post or two posts at most because people don't like triple or quadruple posts.

Will do. Still learning.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Taven
Good God Lightsnake I don't know if it's out of love or loneliness or whatever but responding to absolutely everything I say really is quite unnecessary, and if you're really that desperate to talk to someone, Leland Chee's only a mailbox away.

This is someone so desperate for recognition, he stalks people online

You want that? Then contact me on MSN and quit acting how you've been on here.

You realize nobody had time to school him in the proper forms of saber combat. Luke had to build himself ground up and combine several forms to his own. From the descriptions, his forms contain elements of Forms VII, V and IV

Retconned facts, my dear Nebaris. All it was said was 'that it was believed' he invented the saber. As of now, he no longer is.

Said massassi cut down in droves by any schmuck with a lightsaber who had declined from the centuries in isolation. Point?

So could the Ysanna, so what?

Catching three off guard with natural Cathar ability is..impressive? So much shattering their discs in midair that we see quite a few Padawans doing on Yavin 4.

And it still doesn't hold up for Ulic. So? He hasn't demonstrated the speed, agility or ability Luke has, so quit using fending off a few blows from a mediocre berserker as some sort of proof he's a saber god

Ignoring totally how he was focused on the battle and in controlling the Hsiss and thus in no state to sense her? And when exactly was she see outclassing fellow Jedi with the Massassi? They killed them as easily as she did

So did quite a few nobodies in the series, so?

'You'd' say? Despite her doing nothing but get her ass handed to her every appearance? Even a giant massassi was too much for her to handle. Sylvar's experience is against animals normal Cathar kill and mediocre warriors that can't even take on Padawans en masse. What's this say to you?

Oh, so he CHOSE not to defeat her. So he wasn't expending all energy to just blocking a few attacks and fleeing for his life.

Hilarious coming from you

'Competed in numerous saber locks?'
Sylvar: You have to do more than block my blows, Ulic! He flees from her the entire fight to the edge of the cliff, doing nothing more than fending her off briefly at times. And?

'Unsupported?' Sylvar's descent to mindless rage is a factor throughout Revelation. That sort of thing impairs ability. It also makes one's attacks sloppy and obvious with no form or finesse

Because he'd die. Clear enough? Non force sensitives can hardly even wield a saber.What's next, Tomcat is incredible because he was able to fend off Bug?

Sylvar is NOT physically stronger than Ulic. Nor is a saber a good weapon for overpowering when he merely, again, spends the fight RUNNING TO THE EDGE OF THE CLIFF and fending her away briefly.

It speaks more for Sylvar having no skill with a saber beyond angry swinging.

You're trying to use Redemption to pimp out prime Ulic. Guess what? It fails

You've already shown he's your mental superior, kiddo.

Kiddo, he wasn't fighting to that level in their first fight and managed to give him a proper fight and make him work for the victory.

Considering he annihilate a droid army with a gesture of his hand and the narrator comments upon his exceptional skill in the Force, it kinda does

He's known as a Jedi Master, already as 'one of the most powerful forces of light the galaxy had known,' 'Exceptional' in his skill of the force...who's wrong? You or the canon? Luke's feats, btw, show this.

Ok. So just a significant margin

Nothing to imply that. At all. It's the amulets 'fueled' by the dark rage of his heart. What they're kinda made for. 'Sith amulets' are deadly. Not 'Sith amulets are proportional in deadliness to their users!'

According to...? And since Kun's too disgustingly arrogant to use them...

Prove this. You have no idea how long he was preparing it before he went in

You keep lying. IT says specifically he's just using the obelisk and the Massassi are willingly giving up their lives. Nothing implies it's his own power. See how their life force flows to...the obelisk?
No, seems those Sith power objects did the work. Sorry

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Taven
Fallacy of Division. It was his Force prowess + technical ability + natural human traits that allowed him to defeat them. What is true for a whole is not necessarily true for one of its parts.
You admit he has technical ability, then? And 'natural human traits?' You mean like...agility and strength and speed? And sure he can enhance himself. Problem? Nothing suggests he used anything but his own strength and speed there. Get over it: This speaks bounds for his technical prowess and given he can use the force to augment himself against Ulic and Exar

Constantly listed as one of the most powerful and skilled Jedi of the New Jedi Order, second only to Luke?
Or is that not enough for king fanboy?

Err...nothing implies Luke was sensing them. So Kyp didn't know what a Slayer was-he was still beaten and he sure knew it was a Vong he'd fought for five years. Luke hardly knew what a Slayer was either beyond it was just a tougher YV. And guess what? It kicked a battle ready Kyp's ass

Ahhh, how he lies and tries to cover it up. Jaina even notices the odd thing about Onimi was she could sense him through the Force. Jacen's vongsense is a tad different.

This is what we call 'lying through our teeth.' One would think this would be mentioned or at least FELT when Jaina was put out of commission. It wasn't. They were fighting with him, not melding. Jaina and Jacen were in awe of him there, not connected to him at all

And because you're a dishonest moron, your points can be discarded

Look at his squealing outrage when TUF points him wrong already? TUF even points out ONLY Onimi was sensed via the Force

Like you do all the time? Corran knows Corran's own skill. Seeing Luke in battle made him realize Luke>>>him by far.

Err, right...Corran the Jedi Master? Corran who took on and defeated one of the Vong's finest warriors in one on one combat? Corran, one of the most powerful and skilled masters of the NJO?

Nebaris: Uh oh, he's beasting me...gotta poison the well!
He defeated a Dark Jedi capable of defeating a war veteran Jedi Masters who had proven herself to her peers as an absolute master of the saber and listed by Jacen as second only to Luke and Kyp in ability with the Force and saber.
Yep, she must suck

Because there's something to suggest he just jumped in ability there and gained sudden new skills. Right.

Please stop being a deceptive brat.
Jacen was outmatching Kyle along with three other Jedi while injured. Luke initiated combat with a surprise attack and...Jacen moved to meet him, just as ready when Luke did.

Unless you have reason to believe a substantial rise in ability, list it. OTherwise? **** off

Yeah, Yoda had time to teach him everything about a saber there.
Nothing implies he did anything but build up his saber style himself since he was already a master by....the Thrawn trilogy

Dishonesty at its finest. Only a select few can use it to the level Mace can. It's a rather big help in fights

Except you lie and distort information. Or you're just that stupid.

Yawn. Sour grapes, brat?

because blocking two blows from skilless berserkers and running for your life is skillfu, kids!

Whoah, he can survive and run away from a mediocre Jedi without a clear head and suddenly he can compete with saber Gods?
Miles beyond? Get off it, fanbrat. When Ulic's speed exceeds the naked eye, you'll have a point

Except it's still true, sorry

LEader of Dark NEst, more powerful and skilled than Welk, capable of defeating the third best master in the NJO

Practically the same thing. And?

Except he'd studied history of the Jedi and numerous other Force Users for years. His opinion>>>>Yours

Nothing to suggest Luke had reached anything but a peak by NJO. Whats next, you're gonna clain 'Sure, DN LUKE>Ulic, but not NJO Luke!'

Little difference

Read LOTF lately? Highly skilled opponent wielding a unique weapon and style? And Luke beat her with sabers...over 30 years back, too.

With criminal idiocy

Incorrectly

Liiiiiie as pointed out above.

Except he cleared out the Sacred Precinct, a massive area full of Vong.
Sorry!

Him outmatching a wide group of Jensaari? Right.

Taking up two sabers in NJO and wielding them like a master, despite nobody having ever taught him Jar'Kai? Point me out a single instance of Luke ever being trained in Jar'Kai or learning it from the archives.
I'm waiting. Go ahead.

You jerking off over it doesn't make it so

Darth Subjekt

Originally posted by Kotor3
Gideon already answered your post.
That's nice. I didn't ask Gideon. I asked you. I wanted to hear what you had to say. But now I'm sure all I'll get is a hallowed echo of his posts.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Since everyone is at there peak the question you did not answer is when did Dooku school Mace at there peaks. This would mean Dooku as a dark user and Mace as a light user.
I'm not sure if English is your first language, and I don't mean this as an insult, but it's really difficult to read your posts due to incorrect or lack of punctuation. So if I don't answer something, it may just be because I don't get it. I'm saying, that id Vaapad is what puts Mace at his peak, then it wouldn't matter if Dooku was a lightsider, cause it wouldn't have the same effect. And the point is, that Dooku was one of the top duelist in the Jedi Order, and became even better as a Sith, his current incarnation. You've been trying to downplay Dooku's abilities, saying he's not up to Kun or Ulic's standard, and that's simply not the case.

Originally posted by Kotor3
What are you taking about? They both were done away with quickly. And Anakin did not last longer. Padawan does not equal Anakin as a Jedi. Much different story as we know. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIWm1GSHJ2o

OB1 and Dooku fought from :44 to 1:18 - 34 seconds.

Anakin and Dooku fight from 1:28 to 2:19 - 51 seconds.

And Dooku was visibly tired or fatigued after fighting Anakin, and yes, Anakin did a better job than OB1.

Originally posted by Kotor3
We are taking about sabers and force used to enhance light saber skills. Dooku used the force in both encounters. In the last encouter he used distractions and force to separate. When it came down to saber to saber contact with Anakin he lost. Listen to me. He beat them both in AoTC, and in RoTS, he was still doing well against them as a team, but when it was just him and Anakin and Anakin could use his real form, he killed Dooku. But losing to the Chosen One is nothing to be ashamed of.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
That's nice. I didn't ask Gideon. I asked you. I wanted to hear what you had to say. But now I'm sure all I'll get is a hallowed echo of his posts.

I'm not sure if English is your first language, and I don't mean this as an insult, but it's really difficult to read your posts due to incorrect or lack of punctuation. So if I don't answer something, it may just be because I don't get it. I'm saying, that id Vaapad is what puts Mace at his peak, then it wouldn't matter if Dooku was a lightsider, cause it wouldn't have the same effect. And the point is, that Dooku was one of the top duelist in the Jedi Order, and became even better as a Sith, his current incarnation. You've been trying to downplay Dooku's abilities, saying he's not up to Kun or Ulic's standard, and that's simply not the case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIWm1GSHJ2o

OB1 and Dooku fought from :44 to 1:18 - 34 seconds.

Anakin and Dooku fight from 1:28 to 2:19 - 51 seconds.

And Dooku was visibly tired or fatigued after fighting Anakin, and yes, Anakin did a better job than OB1.

Listen to me. He beat them both in AoTC, and in RoTS, he was still doing well against them as a team, but when it was just him and Anakin and Anakin could use his real form, he killed Dooku. But losing to the Chosen One is nothing to be ashamed of.

If you had read some of my post it would be clear to you that I am not trying to belittle Dooku. What I am saying is the feats you have mention do not put him above Exar Kun by much or at all.

I am really tire of nip picking at responses that do not address the point of my original post. So I am only going to address your response concerning Dooku defeating Obi Wan and Anakin.

I gave examples and showed that Dooku never defeated Obi Wan and Anakin together but in one on one situations. Clear?

Also that he used not just saber combat but the force also along with distractions. Clear?

All you have said is that he did beat both of them. You have not addressed one response of mines only given your opinion.

I have to go so I will response later but the point I was making Darth Subjekt is that I did not understand why some people said that Dooku with a clear and definite statement was better than Exar Kun in saber combat. Some even said by much.

I do not agree and do not feel there is ample proof to say so.

If you decide to respond please remember that his subject is concerning saber combat and force used to enhance those skills. If you have an agrument as to how Dooku defeated Anakin and Obi Wan together in saber combat without distractions or force then I am glad to hear you agrument.