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1. Saesee Tinn and Ki-Adi Mundi
2. Depa Billaba
3. Cin Drallig, Kit Fisto and Plo Koon
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi
5. Yoda
6. Mace Windu
7. Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker and 20 clone commandos

Does Sidious make it through these opponents, or where does he fall?

Does he get rest?

Yes. Enough to regain full strength.

If so, he may or may not stop at Yoda. They are equals, and therefore, the fight can go either way. If Sidious wins, however, he has, IMO, a slight edge over Mace (I explained why in Yoda and Mace vs. Bane and Sidious), and he promptly dies against Obi-Wan and Anakin and the Clone Commandos.

What Sidious? OT Sidious? PT Sidious? DE Sidious?

PT sidious.

Originally posted by skywalker833
PT sidious.

He could die at level five or six. Grandmaster Yoda has already demonstrated swordsmanship and mastery of the Force in total parity with the Galactic Emperor's; Mace Windu's mastery of Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism afford him an undeniable advantage over the Dark Lord in lightsaber combat, though he is considerably inferior in Force strength.

I can see Darth Sidious defeating both Yoda and Mace Windu with much difficulty. But when he comes to the final team, he can't win.

Will Mace necessarily defeat him in a lightsaber duel, though? Sidious had displayed considerably superior speed in comparison to Mace Windu who is not immersed in Vaapad, so to speak (the novel confirms that he relied on it to gain a speed matching Sidious' own), and dominated him during most of the duel, clearly giving Mace a very hard time (look at Mace's facial expressions when they duel on the ledge). In addition, the novel says that Sidious was forced to drop his speed in order to get a force-enhanced grip on the ledge, something he will not necessarily have to do in a rematch. And, finally, Mace certainly needs some time to get 'immersed in Vaapad', and he can barely keep up with Sidious before he goes into that state. Sidious won't have the trouble of being forced to kill several other Jedi before Mace; Mace will have less time to prepare himself and match Sidious.

With all of these factors, do you think that Mace will win every time in a saber duel against the Emperor? I'm not too sure.

No, Mace's power is not on par with Lord Sidious's. Mace would die due to the fact that they were close to equal with lightsabers, but Mace's force power is not even in comparison with the Dark Lord's. Sidious will harass Mace with lightning until the time is right to strike him down.

I was actually replying to Gideon, but I suppose your assertion is fairly reasonable.

Mace and Sidious werent close to equal with lightsabers. Windu mopped the floor with him.

Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
Mace and Sidious werent close to equal with lightsabers. Windu mopped the floor with him.

Yes, which is why three of his teammates were killed and he was pushed back into the central office.

No, Obsidian, and here's to prove it:

"Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse."

As you see, in their fight, this clearly displays that in pure saber-to-saber, Mace and Sidious were virtually equal- and this is factoring Windu's Vaapad, mind you, that allowed him to copy Sidious' superior speed and ferocity.

Windu didn't mop the floor with him. He had extreme difficulty (depicted by his facial expressions), and only barely won, thanks to his Shatterpoint ability.

Fair enough. I still think Windu kicks serious butt

That was easy.

So, will Mace defeat Sidious in a saber duel?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
That was easy.

So, will Mace defeat Sidious in a saber duel?

I don't see why not. The same properties and scenarios that allowed him to overcome the Emperor in the first place will be the same.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
That was easy.

So, will Mace defeat Sidious in a saber duel?

What can I say? If good enough proof/argument is providen, I have nothing against being wrong.

He did so before. Dont see why he couldnt do so again.

But this isn't just a saber duel. It is all out. And in the force category, sidious is far superior to Mace.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Will Mace necessarily defeat him in a lightsaber duel, though? Sidious had displayed considerably superior speed in comparison to Mace Windu who is not immersed in Vaapad, so to speak (the novel confirms that he relied on it to gain a speed matching Sidious' own), and dominated him during most of the duel, clearly giving Mace a very hard time (look at Mace's facial expressions when they duel on the ledge). In addition, the novel says that Sidious was forced to drop his speed in order to get a force-enhanced grip on the ledge, something he will not necessarily have to do in a rematch. And, finally, Mace certainly needs some time to get 'immersed in Vaapad', and he can barely keep up with Sidious before he goes into that state. Sidious won't have the trouble of being forced to kill several other Jedi before Mace; Mace will have less time to prepare himself and match Sidious.

These factors sort of make me doubt that Windu is a hundred percent guaranteed of victory.

Originally posted by skywalker833
But this isn't just a saber duel. It is all out. And in the force category, sidious is far superior to Mace. Uh yea... the fight in the movie was all out and Mace still beat him. He couldn't beat him with the force until Anakin helped.

And that passage contradicts what we saw in the movies, therefore making it non canon.

How does it contradict what we saw in the movies? Even George Lucas said that he was feigning his weakness.

When its describing everything that's getting destroyed in the office and all the ground that is covered in the office, then were see the movie and they make a bee line for the window... that's a contradiction.

But he never said that Mace didn't beat him. I'm sure it was all in his plan to get wtfpwned with his own lightning. Of course he was playing when Anakin was there, but it wasn't his intention to get kicked in the face and lose his lightsaber. Sorry.

I didn't say he intentionally lost the lightsaber duel, but he did intentionally lose the force duel. Seriously, GL's statement of Sidious faking his weakness- followed by the novel's assertion the Mace was getting overwhelmed, in a sequence that contradicts absolutely nothing in the movie except for a few lines of dialogue, proves that if Sidious had intended to, he would have blasted Mace sky-high with his force lightning.

Mace's win in the saber duel was legit, though. But I'm not fully convinced (and I've already explained why) if he will take a duel a 100% of the times.

Uh, he tried the lightning thing and it was uh... well... ya know... blocked.

Conveniently leading to Anakin solidifying his fall. It's very doubtful he intended to kill Mace with the lightning as he stopped when Mace was giving his all and PAlpatine clearly had lots of reserves left

After he got a breather. Still doesn't change the fact that he tried, and it was blocked and forced back on to him. Same thing happened with Yoda. It seems Palpatine was maybe a little overconfident with his lighting that day.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
After he got a breather. Still doesn't change the fact that he tried, and it was blocked and forced back on to him. Same thing happened with Yoda. It seems Palpatine was maybe a little overconfident with his lighting that day.

For the record, Lucas said that Palpatine was feigning weakness during the lightning part. Windu wasn't. From an inferior position, Palpatine was overpowering Windu with the Force, Subjekt. Windu was "choking on ozone" from his own lightsaber.

That wasn't my point. I know that Palpatine is far more powerful that Mace. And I also know that it was ploy to turn Anakin. What I was saying, should anyone care to read, was that the novel's description of the fight contradicts what we see. THAT'S IT.

And if it helps people be able to change their tampons, change the "couldn't" in my post at the top of this page, to "didn't."

I think ROTS Sidious loses at 5, 6 and 7.

In my opinion, during the Sidious/Yoda fight in his office, he retreated only because he sensed he was in a lot of danger of being beaten. What's he do? Runs to a tiny Senate platform hundreds of feet in the air where Yoda's Ataru skills will suffer. Even then he needed the high ground to barely best the Jedi Grandmaster. On even footing, out of 10 battles, I think Yoda takes it 7/10 times.

I think Mace wins because of his Vaapad and Shatterpoint. When facing practically any dark side practitioner (except maybe Bane w/ orbalisks or Nihilus), that's going to be a lot to overcome. He's already beaten Sidious in the saber duel, and sent back his lightning. If he could have finished Windu off, I'm sure he would have - like he did the other three masters sent to arrest him. He couldn't. He loses.

Anakin, Obi-Wan, and the stormtroopers...numbers get him. *Shrug*

Yoda and Sidious are stated to be equals (by George Lucas). There's no use debating on this.

In addition, I've already explained previously why it clearly wasn't Sidious' intention to defeat Mace with that gout of lightning- Mace was getting overpowered and 'had no strength left'. He would've been defeated by that lightning if Sidious actually intended to kill him with it.

He did pull off a legit win in the sabers, though. That being said, I've also explained why I don't think he's gonna get a 10/10 in the saber combat.

The novelization actually said he didn't have any strength left? (I haven't read it - I have the movie, what's the point? lol) How would that be possible with him tapping Vaapad?

Sidious retreated from Yoda, and had not Yoda lost his saber (rather cheaply), I think many would agree he'd have won. On even footing in a large space, even more decisively. GL has no credibility with me anymore, especially after what I'm hearing pertaining to Starkiller almost besting Sidious.

Err... yeah, but he is the ultimate source and therefore what he says is automatically canon. Sidious = Yoda. In that fight, he played smarter and had a more effective offensive arsenal of weapons, and therefore, he won. The end.

And even Vaapad isn't limitless. According to Windu, the 'struggle was beyond' Vaapad.

I disagree wholeheartedly and question your subscribed logic. If strategic retreats are totally indicative of inferiority, I would like to take the time to point out that Yoda, too, withdrew from the fight with the Emperor. Does that mean that he was weaker? Not necessarily. An alternative explanation that cannot be ruled out is an echo of Heath Ledger's Joker's statement to Batman in the Dark Knight; why would Palpatine want to risk his mastery and ownership of the galaxy in what amounted to a glorified "fist fight" with someone as powerful as Yoda? Palpatine didn't stop to play fair because his top priority is saving his ass, hence why he led Yoda all around the Rotunda trying to use the environment to gain an advantage. Palpatine disarmed Yoda and demonstrated equal strength in the Force. It could go either way.



Windu certainly wins the lightsaber engagement and quite possibly the all out fight. That said, others are correct: Palpatine's initial speed and reflexes are superior to Windu's, forcing Windu to "submerge" in Vaapad to cancel out the Sith Lord's superiority. Moreover, Vaapad itself wasn't superior to Sidious's bladework until Windu utilized the shatterpoint charism. Finally, despite being on his ass, a Jedi Master possessing an incredible physique and a superconducting loop hovering over him, and being assaulted by his own lightning, Palpatine still nearly forced Windu's lightsaber back upon him where the Jedi was "choking on ozone". And in the end? Palpatine was still feigning weakness. That is a considerable disparity in power.



The leader of the Nightsisters, a powerful dark side magus named Gezetherion, was capable of destroying an entire company of Imperial stormtroopers in the Force simultaneously before they could attack her. Obi-Wan is only a threat in lightsaber combat. Palpatine could die, given the sheer numbers, but he is more than capable of disposing of Kenobi and laying waste to the troopers and then handling Anakin. Not that it would be easy, given how quick he'd have to pull it off.

I don't think he could handle the sheer numbers. And ARC's are the elite.

Really now, Sidious would waste the clones, and the Jedi team would follow shortly. He wouldn't even need to draw his lightsaber.

I say Mace or Yoda take him - the latter should be the last on this gauntlet.

ok...

Actually, this is actually the best gauntlet I've seen in a long time, since there're challenges, but Sidious actually has a chance of winning it.

Thankyou

Originally posted by Gideon
I disagree wholeheartedly and question your subscribed logic. If strategic retreats are totally indicative of inferiority, I would like to take the time to point out that Yoda, too, withdrew from the fight with the Emperor. Does that mean that he was weaker? Not necessarily. An alternative explanation that cannot be ruled out is an echo of Heath Ledger's Joker's statement to Batman in the Dark Knight; why would Palpatine want to risk his mastery and ownership of the galaxy in what amounted to a glorified "fist fight" with someone as powerful as Yoda? Palpatine didn't stop to play fair because his top priority is saving his ass, hence why he led Yoda all around the Rotunda trying to use the environment to gain an advantage. Palpatine disarmed Yoda and demonstrated equal strength in the Force. It could go either way.

Yoda withdrew from the fight because he lost his lightsaber and fell off the platform, totally ceding the high ground. Yes, he lost. Straight up. He couldn't defeat Sidious after losing both those things, and retreated.

But was he losing in Palpatine's office? I wouldn't say so. I would say he had an edge, however slight. And I believe that is why Sidious ran onto the rotunda, to negate Yoda's freedom of movement advantage. I know you're going to say, "but that was strategy, he was smart enough to not take any chances." And I agree. Definitely. But on an even surface, in a neutral area maybe, he wouldn't be able to do that - and in my opinion Sidious goes down. I do agree that they're equal in the force, but I give the edge to Yoda in saber skill. He's had more than 800 years to master them, afterall. Sidious' lightning blasting Yoda's saber out of his hand was not only total PIS, but was only possible because he was off balance and on the rotunda.



I, like anyone who has more than half a brain, fully realize that Palpatine is more powerful than Mace. By a considerable amount. You agree that the only reason he was able to best Sidious was due to Vaapad, and that's exactly what I said, "Mace wins because of his Vaapad and Shatterpoint." So, it seems we agree on that.

Anakin, Obi 1 and the arcs would stop the galactic emperor with extreme difficulty.

No they wouldn't. They get force raped.

Anakin is one of the few able to defeat sidious, kenobi is his equal. They could beat him, and they also have 20 specially trained by jango fett ARC troopers!

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
No they wouldn't. They get force raped.
wow, you sound like such a great dad...

No, sir. Anakin may be able to beat him in sabers only, def not the force. And Anakin is more powerful than OB1 all around, OB1 just had the experience to capitalize on Anakin's cloudy mind.

They wouldn't come close. Look what Palp's did to Agen, Sasse and Kit in a matter of seconds when Mace was right there.

He fries the clones to charred bone and ash in a matter of seconds and then proceeds to dismantle the duo.

Yeah, but the two are nearly as powerful as mace, and yes, obi 1 is as good as anakin, and you would have to be naive not to realize that.

Obi-Wan is not as good as Anakin. Anakin has tremendous advantages in regards to physical attributes, he's more powerful in the Force, and he's a much more skilled duelist. The only reason why Anakin lost is because, as Nick Gillard said, his emotional state of mind at the time (and being a Jedi, Obi-Wan let go of his attachments, so he was not at a disadvantage anymore than when he fought Grievous). Plus, he also knew Anakin's moves like the back of his hand. While the same would apply to Anakin, it would still prolong a duel between the two.

Even so, he was still kicking his ass with melee assaults like the Dragon Sleeper. Kenobi had to resort to desperation tactics like lava skating, tightrope walking, et cetera; all just to unbalance the terrain so that he could have a chance at survival.

I wouldn't even say Kenobi's tactical intelligence is that much greater - if any - than Anakin's. He has more experience, but so did Count Dooku and compared to Obi-Wan, General Grievous had more as well. On paper, there's a large power gap between the two. In an even ground setting, Obi-Wan could never hope to win.

THANK you!

Originally posted by Advent
Obi-Wan is not as good as Anakin. Anakin has tremendous advantages in regards to physical attributes, he's more powerful in the Force, and he's a much more skilled duelist. The only reason why Anakin lost is because, as Nick Gillard said, his emotional state of mind at the time (and being a Jedi, Obi-Wan let go of his attachments, so he was not at a disadvantage anymore than when he fought Grievous). Plus, he also knew Anakin's moves like the back of his hand. While the same would apply to Anakin, it would still prolong a duel between the two.

Even so, he was still kicking his ass with melee assaults like the Dragon Sleeper. Kenobi had to resort to desperation tactics like lava skating, tightrope walking, et cetera; all just to unbalance the terrain so that he could have a chance at survival.

I wouldn't even say Kenobi's tactical intelligence is that much greater - if any - than Anakin's. He has more experience, but so did Count Dooku and compared to Obi-Wan, General Grievous had more as well. On paper, there's a large power gap between the two. In an even ground setting, Obi-Wan could never hope to win.
Wow, that is sad.

Obi Wan defeated Anakin because of his tactical mind, not because of Anakin's stated. Anakin was a fool to jump, Obi-wan knew he was gonna.
In a battle, obi wan will win the majority of the time, even though anakin is a better fighter.

Originally posted by Advent
(and being a Jedi, Obi-Wan let go of his attachments, so he was not at a disadvantage anymore than when he fought Grievous). Plus, he also knew Anakin's moves like the back of his hand.
exactly, which are two more reasons why obi 1 would win.
I admit Anakin is a better swordsman. I also admit yoda, mace windu, count dooku, and emperor palpatine are better. But in a fight against anakin, obi wan will win!

Originally posted by skywalker833
exactly, which are two more reasons why obi 1 would win.
I admit Anakin is a better swordsman. I also admit yoda, mace windu, count dooku, and emperor palpatine are better. But in a fight against anakin, obi wan will win!

Only if Anakins is not the right state of mind and they are fighting in a large open area so Obi can continue to give ground and use the environment to his advantage. If these factors are not part of the duel then Anakin will come out on top just about every time

Originally posted by skywalker833
Obi Wan defeated Anakin because of his tactical mind, not because of Anakin's stated. Anakin was a fool to jump, Obi-wan knew he was gonna.
In a battle, obi wan will win the majority of the time, even though anakin is a better fighter. You're just wrong. Sorry.

If I wanted to play Devil's Advocate, I'd bring up ANH Obi Wan essentially stalemating ANH Vader, even though Obi Wan was a feeble old man and Vader was practicing killing lightsaber combat programmed droids and a bunch of Jedi (the conclave incident rings a bell).

OT Vader is utter garbage in comparison to his former self when it comes to his prowess with a blade. As much is factually stated. That is why he wasn't able to overcome Ben Kenobi.

In the movies? Yeah. In the book and comics? Naw. They still present him as being amazing with a blade.

"For those craving a more specific explanation, keep in mind that Lucas has said that we've never seen true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy. In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess."

-- Starwars.com, Episode IV Lore.

It doesn't matter what the EU displays; the official stance is that Vader is a joke in comparison to Anakin. And I'm inclined to agree.

You'd have to be a fool not to agree.

Lol, I think you missed my point. Ben Kenobi, obviously, was also hampered when compared to his younger, ROTS self. Yet he was still able to stalemate Vader until he sacrificed himself.

That was my initial point. No high ground explanation. No tactical advantage. Just skill.

It was also said that Kenobi knew he couldn't win and sacrificed himself as a distraction for Luke and friends to escape.

I did say stalemate. Does it really matter if he knew he couldn't win? He was trading blow for blow, dead even. Of course Mech Vader has more stamina and strength and would eventually win...

Meh. I'm no good at playing Devil's Advocate. I, too, believe Anakin is superior to Obi-Wan, regardless of version.

Well if he knew he would lose, and then "gave up," then its not much of a stalemate. You could say that Dooku and Anakin were stalemated up until Anakin decided to pwn him.

But I want you to know that I read your last part, I was just commenting on your first part.

I thought it was common knowledge that Dooku = In the Zone Anakin...




(Not)

Originally posted by Enyalus
Lol, I think you missed my point. Ben Kenobi, obviously, was also hampered when compared to his younger, ROTS self. Yet he was still able to stalemate Vader until he sacrificed himself.

That was my initial point. No high ground explanation. No tactical advantage. Just skill.

Well, I don't see what relevance this holds to the discussion we're having. We're not arguing the old bat Ben Kenobi compared to mecha Vader, only ROTS Anakin and ROTS Obi-Wan. Their elder counterparts are a different story since they both declined greatly; it'd be silly to imply the duel in ANH means anything when comparing their PT incarnations.