NJO luke vs ROTS emperor and ROTS anakin
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darthyoda23
2 on 1 they fight in the mustafar system who wins?
DarthCuddles
is this darkside anakin (vader) or light side???
Tangible God
Yeah... Luke's a demi-God, they can't take him.
Darth Subjekt
Possibly in sabers only.
Master Crimzon
Yeah, they take him in the saber combat. But they die in the force and the all-out.
Enyalus
Twenty sabers at a time and moving faster than can be seen? Naw. They lose the saber battle, too. ROTS Vader was too much of an emotional wreck, and ROTS Sidious wasn't impressive at all - losing to Mace and barely holding his own against Yoda.
The only way I'd say they have a chance in sabers is if Anakin is in his "in the zone" state.
Master Crimzon
Oh yeah? RotS Sidious isn't impressive?
"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine?"
"Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them-But he could feel them in the Force."
Ye see, Luke is not the only one who can move faster than the eye can see.
"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again."
See, Mace only managed to even keep up with him due to Vaapad's effects...
"Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse."
... and even that was not enough. He needed his Shatterpoint ability in order to defeat Sidious.
In addition, Kolar is referred to be the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel as one of the greatest swordsman in the entire Jedi Order's history. Both Fisto (who tooled post-AotC Kenobi in combat) and Tiin are subsequently called also two of the order's greatest swordsman by Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti. Do you happen to remember what Sidious did to them? Yes, he utterly destroyed all three of them and proceeded to overwhelm Mace, causing him to move back to the central office. He also managed to fight Yoda very equally, and keep a steady offense in the parts we see more clearly.
Nick Gillard refers to him as a 'level 9', the highest level of swordsmanship one could achieve, along with Mace, Yoda, and Anakin. He also calls him a 'master of every weapon and every form'.
Yeah. Combine that with Anakin, 'the strongest and fastest Jedi' of his generation, capable of tooling Dooku, the 'legendary duelist' and one of the greatest Jedi/Sith in history when actually going serious, and you have a team that can defeat even Luke Skywalker. In saber combat, of course.
Enyalus
I know how impressive Sidious' speed is, but I'd still say NJO Luke is faster.
Also, I tend to throw out what he did against Fisto and the others, because it screws everything up. If he was THAT much better than 3 of the supposedly best bladebeings in the Order's history, then he should have destroyed Yoda and beat Mace. They aren't THAT much better than Fisto and the like. Do you agree?
And yeah, if Anakin is 'in the zone' in this fight, they win in the saber department. I did concede that.
Master Crimzon
Maybe NJO Luke is faster. Maybe he isn't. There isn't truly a way to fully gauge the difference between the speed levels- NJO Luke has far more raw power and a considerable mastery of the force, but RotS Sidious is a more masterful and knowledge practician of the force. And if NJO Luke is faster, it's not to the extent that he can WTFpwn him based on speed alone. He won't curbstomp him in a saber duel, that's to be sure- he'll win (Luke will), but as I've said in the LotF Luke vs. Yoda thread, it won't be a curbstomp.
Oh, and as for the Jedi Master's death? The answer: speed. They were fast and technically skilled- being amazing swordsman- but Sidious was simply waaaay faster and more unpredictable than they were (the databank refers to his speed as 'blinding'). Mace wasn't as fast or as skilled as Sidious, but his Vaapad allowed him to keep up with him and force a stalemate until he can use his Shatterpoint ability. The only person who Sidious ever fought who could match him in speed and swordsmanship based on pure, innate skill alone is Yoda. And I'd say that speaks for Sidious' skills, don't you think?
Enyalus
I'd say that speaks for Sidious' speed and masterful ability to tap into the Force. Technical ability with a saber...I still say he's overrated. That's just a personal opinion though, and I doubt there's any conclusive proof to the contrary or to back up the claim.
Gideon
I would like to take the time to point out that Lumiya, a Vader-esque monstrosity (only considerably weaker) was able to defeat a post-NJO Luke Skywalker in single combat, despite the vast disparity in power and skills between them. Moreover, he was wounded multiple times by Jacen Solo, a Sith Lord whose power is stated to have surpassed Vader's only in Invincible. He's clearly top tier and arguably the greatest ever, but he's hardly infallible. Here, he's facing two prodigious swordsmen, "the most powerful Jedi Knight ever", capable of unleashing all hell upon someone of Dooku's caliber and the most powerful Sith Lord ever, capable of WTFpwning three of the Order's finest swordsmen in seconds. If he wins the lightsaber match, it will hardly be ownage.
Enyalus
Wasn't Caedus more powerful than ROTS Sidious? I keep hearing about what a beast he was and how overpowered they made him. And Lumiya had a very unique weapon...style difference is what did it, I'm sure.
Master Crimzon
Enyalus: Well, Sidious was said to be a 'master of every weapon and every form'. So that does speak plenty for his technical ability, doesn't he?
Edit: And I highly doubt that Caedus > RotS Sidious.
Enyalus
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Enyalus: Well, Sidious was said to be a 'master of every weapon and every form'. So that does speak plenty for his technical ability, doesn't he?
So is every blademaster, Sith and Jedi alike, for millenia. No doubt he's great. That's clear. But OMGasming over his saber ability? Meh. To me it's mainly speed, and NJO Luke nullifies that advantage with his own.
Gideon
Darth Caedus has only been stated to have been more powerful than Darth Vader. Caedus has not demonstrated anything approaching the feats of the Galactic Emperor, though it should be stated: Caedus is a friggin' beast.
Luke had been dealing with Lumiya on and off for decades. He was more than familiar with her style and weapon. Lumiya won because she's simply a much smarter and more cunning combatant than Luke. As is Palpatine, by far.
Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Enyalus
So is every blademaster, Sith and Jedi alike, for millenia. No doubt he's great. That's clear. But OMGasming over his saber ability? Meh. To me it's mainly speed, and NJO Luke nullifies that advantage with his own.
NJO Luke isn't known for being an 'OMG GOD!' with technical skill, either. Kas'im and Dooku are, I believe, the best examples of "OMG GODS!' in technical skill.
However, Luke and Sidious are both better swordsman than they are. You wanna know why? Force abilities. Anakin had displayed- that due to his incredible stamina, constantly growing power, and physical strength (all granted by the force), a powerful force user can overcome a technical skill advantage in his opponent. Yes, Sidious' saber style is primarily speed, agility, and force-enhanced reflexes. But that's more than enough for someone like him. Luke can probably nullify that advantage in a 1-on-1 scenario- but this isn't a 1-on-1 scenario. Couple Sidious' 'blinding' speed and Anakin's devastating power, and you have a team that can take Luke down.
Faunus
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Couple Sidious' 'blinding' speed and Anakin's devastating power, and you have a team that can take Luke down.Except this isn't DBZ, and the traits associated with each individual can't be applied cohesively. Sidious, if he actually wants to live, is going to have to use that "blinding" speed against Luke, at which point he's fighting on a level that Anakin can barely even comprehend and is therefore on his own. Luke, meanwhile, is on his own capable of speeds matching or exceeding those that Sidious can achieve, has raw power (and the control to use it) that completely eclipses anything that can be attributed to either of his opponents, and to top it off, can detect shatterpoints.
In any all-out or Force-only situation here Anakin's presence becomes irrelevant, and Sidious is quickly left alone to fend off the most powerful being in history. Now, there's actually a fight there, as the only other people who can effectively compete with Sidious are Yoda , Bane , Mace , Kyp , and Jacen , but it's still a one-sided battle that Luke would win.
Gideon
Originally posted by Faunus
Except this isn't DBZ, and the traits associated with each individual can't be applied cohesively. Sidious, if he actually wants to live, is going to have to use that "blinding" speed against Luke, at which point he's fighting on a level that Anakin can barely even comprehend and is therefore on his own. Luke, meanwhile, is on his own capable of speeds matching or exceeding those that Sidious can achieve, has raw power (and the control to use it) that completely eclipses anything that can be attributed to either of his opponents, and to top it off, can detect shatterpoints.
In any all-out or Force-only situation here Anakin's presence becomes irrelevant, and Sidious is quickly left alone to fend off the most powerful being in history. Now, there's actually a fight there, as the only other people who can effectively compete with Sidious are Yoda , Bane , Mace , Kyp , and Jacen , but it's still a one-sided battle that Luke would win.
I'm feeling a "Give into your angah" speech from Palpatine.
Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Faunus
Except this isn't DBZ, and the traits associated with each individual can't be applied cohesively. Sidious, if he actually wants to live, is going to have to use that "blinding" speed against Luke, at which point he's fighting on a level that Anakin can barely even comprehend and is therefore on his own. Luke, meanwhile, is on his own capable of speeds matching or exceeding those that Sidious can achieve, has raw power (and the control to use it) that completely eclipses anything that can be attributed to either of his opponents, and to top it off, can detect shatterpoints.
In any all-out or Force-only situation here Anakin's presence becomes irrelevant, and Sidious is quickly left alone to fend off the most powerful being in history. Now, there's actually a fight there, as the only other people who can effectively compete with Sidious are Yoda , Bane , Mace , Kyp , and Jacen , but it's still a one-sided battle that Luke would win.
I was referring to a pure saber duel. I already said previously that Luke would take a force and an all-out.
Rogue Jedi
There is the scene in Vector Prime (if not Vector Prime, then the novel following) where Luke rescues Jacen from the Vong. He is wielding two sabers and creates...well...I am gonna call it a "force tornado", or something like that.
I am gonna find the book here, its buried away in storage, and give an exact quote.
Gideon
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
There is the scene in Vector Prime (if not Vector Prime, then the novel following) where Luke rescues Jacen from the Vong. He is wielding two sabers and creates...well...I am gonna call it a "force tornado", or something like that.
I am gonna find the book here, its buried away in storage, and give an exact quote.
Indeed. Still, Skywalker and Sidious's bladework have been lauded as well.
Rogue Jedi
Talking about NJO Luke, wasnt he NJO Luke for several years? I think it needs to be narrowed down, exactly which book we are talking about.
truejedi
i'm still of the opinion that LOTF luke is stronger than his NJO counterpart. his abilities in the force have increased enough to put him in a whole different category, though he seems to deal more in deception with the force during LOTF than pure all-out violent attacks.
skywalker833
Luke takes all three. He is practically the god of star wars by NJO.
Gideon
Originally posted by skywalker833
Luke takes all three. He is practically the god of star wars by NJO.
By NJO? No.
Enyalus
Meh. Some people use NJO and LOTF interchangably, I've noticed. I've got next to zero knowledge of NJO books Luke. Was basing my argument on LOTF.
Though what Rogue Jedi said doesn't surprise me - R.A. Salvatore penned Vector Prime, and his sword duels are epic (See Legend of Drizzt series, etc.)
Faunus
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I was referring to a pure saber duel.So was I, for the entire first paragraph. If Anakin can barely see Palpatine, he's probably not going to be able to hit Luke, so he isn't going to present much of a challenge.
Darth Subjekt
But he could feel it within the force itself, so were to follow QGJ's advice to feel, not think, then he might, might be able to do something.
Faunus
Like look in the right direction? Sure. Actively pose a threat to Luke and assist Palpatine in some way? Heh, no.
Darth Subjekt
Yea, wishful thinking, I suppose.
Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Faunus
So was I, for the entire first paragraph. If Anakin can barely see Palpatine, he's probably not going to be able to hit Luke, so he isn't going to present much of a challenge.
But Anakin is not particularly slow himself, and has the ability- like every other Jedi- to 'feel' through the force. Remember, this is RotS Sidious, not DE Sidious.
I suppose that if you're right, then yes, Luke should win the saber fight. However, Palpatine isn't dumb, and wouldn't charge in without Anakin's help, and therefore, if they both attack Luke on both of his sides, they can eventually overwhelm him.
Faunus
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
But Anakin is not particularly slow himself, and has the ability- like every other Jedi- to 'feel' through the force. Remember, this is RotS Sidious, not DE Sidious.And RotS Sidious moved faster than Anakin could really follow, according to the passage that you repeatedly throw around and try to validate. He is going to need that speed to survive more than a few seconds against Luke, and slowing down enough to fight cohesively with Anakin is going to get him killed. Like you said, he isn't dumb.
Since Sidious and Luke will be fighting at speeds that Anakin can't even touch, Anakin can't help his partner here. What part of this aren't you getting?
And Luke is just going to stand there and get sandwiched between someone he's considerably more powerful than and someone he's considerably more powerful and faster than? Yeah. Sure.
I don't know why you're trying so hard to give Anakin a fighting chance here, since he has none in any scenario.
Darth Subjekt
Well, to be fair, Durge did say that Anakin was the fastest Jedi he'd ever seen. But...
Enyalus
I'd like to get you guys' take on something else. Judging from several books and movies, it seems like when a team is taking on a single opponent, they do worse than when in a 1 vs. 1 senario.
Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan against Maul seemed kind of slow and hesistant. Yet when it was Qui-Gon vs. Maul the action was much more fast-paced and fluid. Ditto when Obi-Wan was facing him solo.
Hell, if you take Anakin from AOTC when fighting Dooku solo he did about as well as Obi and he did taking him on together in ROTS. Add in books like Rule of Two where it shows a Jedi like Johun pretty much screwing up his teammate's timing (the big fat dude, the name's a blank), and Anakin and Palps might be fare better solo than as a team. Still saying they lose. Only that they might do better in sabers if they don't attack him at the same time.
Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Faunus
And RotS Sidious moved faster than Anakin could really follow, according to the passage that you repeatedly throw around and try to validate. He is going to need that speed to survive more than a few seconds against Luke, and slowing down enough to fight cohesively with Anakin is going to get him killed. Like you said, he isn't dumb.
Since Sidious and Luke will be fighting at speeds that Anakin can't even touch, Anakin can't help his partner here. What part of this aren't you getting?
And Luke is just going to stand there and get sandwiched between someone he's considerably more powerful than and someone he's considerably more powerful and faster than? Yeah. Sure.
I don't know why you're trying so hard to give Anakin a fighting chance here, since he has none in any scenario.
Sorry I didn't post until now, but I had to go somewhere.
Anyways, I can concede to this argument. You do bring up a reasonable point about how Anakin and Sidious won't be able to fight together...
But a question. If Luke was to go alone against 'in teh zone' Anakin in a pure lightsaber duel, do you think Luke would defeat him with utter ease? I'm not that sure about it. I think Anakin should be able to last more than a few seconds in that sort of fight, although Luke will win without extreme difficulty.
Faunus
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
But a question. If Luke was to go alone against 'in teh zone' Anakin in a pure lightsaber duel, do you think Luke would defeat him with utter ease? I'm not that sure about it. I think Anakin should be able to last more than a few seconds in that sort of fight, although Luke will win without extreme difficulty.I don't even understand the concept of 'in teh zone' Anakin, as all he's doing is giving in to his anger and hatred - opening the "furnace," as Dooku put it. He was all Dark side, batshit crazy against Obi-Wan, too, and how did that turn out?
I think against all but a select few opponents, Anakin is virtually unstoppable. But Luke, Sidious, Yoda, and Bane can't really be threatened by him, and on a lesser level, Jacen and Mace are generally guaranteed victory.
Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Faunus
I don't even understand the concept of 'in teh zone' Anakin, as all he's doing is giving in to his anger and hatred - opening the "furnace," as Dooku put it. He was all Dark side, batshit crazy against Obi-Wan, too, and how did that turn out?
I think against all but a select few opponents, Anakin is virtually unstoppable. But Luke, Sidious, Yoda, and Bane can't really be threatened by him, and on a lesser level, Jacen and Mace are generally guaranteed victory.
Well, Anakin wasn't focusing against Obi-Wan's; there's a difference between well-harnessed, controlled rage and blind, 'batshit crazy' rage.
And- with the obvious exception of Luke- I wouldn't go as far as to say 'can't really be threated by ', or guaranteed victory. Sure, all the people you listed (well... I'm not too sure about Jacen) can all probably take Anakin out, but he'd surely pose some sort of a challenge to them.
Icy Ninja
Originally posted by Faunus
I don't even understand the concept of 'in teh zone' Anakin, as all he's doing is giving in to his anger and hatred - opening the "furnace," as Dooku put it. He was all Dark side, batshit crazy against Obi-Wan, too, and how did that turn out?
I think against all but a select few opponents, Anakin is virtually unstoppable. But Luke, Sidious, Yoda, and Bane can't really be threatened by him, and on a lesser level, Jacen and Mace are generally guaranteed victory.
The difference between in those fights was that in the Dooku fight he tapped into the darkside but was able to keep a level head and controlled his emotions. In the Obi-Wan fight he fell completely to the darkside his state of mind was fuked up and he was fighting a opponent who trained him for ten years and fought alongside him for 3 years
Faunus
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And- with the obvious exception of Luke- I wouldn't go as far as to say 'can't really be threated by ', or guaranteed victory. Sure, all the people you listed (well... I'm not too sure about Jacen) can all probably take Anakin out, but he'd surely pose some sort of a challenge to them.Challenged, yes. But Anakin has no chance whatsoever of killing any of them, especially when the Force abilities of these individuals are taken into account. Mace is probably the only one there whose life would truly be at stake on any level, and even then Vaapad and shatterpoint give him a sharp advantage. The rest would Force (pun intended) Skywalker into the ground.
Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Faunus
Challenged, yes. But Anakin has no chance whatsoever of killing any of them, especially when the Force abilities of these individuals are taken into account. Mace is probably the only one there whose life would truly be at stake on any level, and even then Vaapad and shatterpoint give him a sharp advantage. The rest would Force (pun intended) Skywalker into the ground.
No chance whatsoever? Well, it depends on the combatant. He wouldn't have a chance in hell in defeating Bane in combat (his style is completely useless against Bane's orbalisks. Even physically, Bane holds the advantage), nor does he have a chance beating Yoda (smaller, faster, more agile, more percise. Anakin probably couldn't even land a strike on him), nor could he possibly defeat Luke (do I really need to post an argument?). Sidious is likely to be included in this category, too- Sidious is faster and holds an immense psychological advantage over Anakin. However, when it comes to Jacen... I don't know anymore. Does he really have feats that put him firmly above Anakin in saber combat?
tulakhordpwns
He does slaughter a bunch of Vong while cut off from the force. Does this alone put him above Anakin? Not really. But when you consider his incredibly strong connection to the force and his various advantages (ie. pain resistance, invisible in the force), it isn't unreasonable to say Jacen beats Anakin in saber combat.
Plus, "in the zone" Jacen is way better than "in the zone" Anakin.
Master Crimzon
Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
He does slaughter a bunch of Vong while cut off from the force. Does this alone put him above Anakin? Not really. But when you consider his incredibly strong connection to the force and his various advantages (ie. pain resistance, invisible in the force), it isn't unreasonable to say Jacen beats Anakin in saber combat.
Plus, "in the zone" Jacen is way better than "in the zone" Anakin.
What feats does Jacen have 'in teh zone' that make him better than 'in teh zone' Anakin?
And Anakin's connection to the force is undeniably stronger than Jacen's.
Faunus
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
What feats does Jacen have 'in teh zone' that make him better than 'in teh zone' Anakin?He starts glowing and melts the Vong overlord. Then he ages five years.
True. However, his mastery of the Force is laughable in comparison to that of Jacen, and he's not even remotely in terms strategizing and fighting efficiently. Plus, Solo's a tank. I've effectively lost count of the ridiculous number of wounds he's suffered in combat, but he fends off Jaina after she blows his arm off and later nearly kills her with a hole in his abdomen. So he's resilient, too.
In a strict lightsaber duel, Jacen wound likely win because he's faster, considerably smarter, and can take hits like no one else but Sion. In an all-out fight, his firmly superior Force abilities would let him make short work of Anakin.
Lightsnake
Gonna have to agree with Faunus on Jacen vs. Anakin there...Jacen's a bit of a demon in combat and the Force and his knowledge is just insane.
Sidenote: How goes, Faunus? Haven't seen you in a while
Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Faunus
He starts glowing and melts the Vong overlord. Then he ages five years.
True. However, his mastery of the Force is laughable in comparison to that of Jacen, and he's not even remotely in terms strategizing and fighting efficiently. Plus, Solo's a tank. I've effectively lost count of the ridiculous number of wounds he's suffered in combat, but he fends off Jaina after she blows his arm off and later nearly kills her with a hole in his abdomen. So he's resilient, too.
In a strict lightsaber duel, Jacen wound likely win because he's faster, considerably smarter, and can take hits like no one else but Sion. In an all-out fight, his firmly superior Force abilities would let him make short work of Anakin.
I can agree with that. I still believe that Anakin has a shot in the saber duel, but Jacen will certainly take him in a fight.
Oh, and what speed feats does Jacen have? Not questioning your theory, but... just wonderin'.
Lightsnake
He's fast enough to bring down Kyle Katarn and keep pace with Luke...plus, take out Slayers
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