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Darth Caedus of Invincible fights Mace on Tatooine.

1. Saber
2. Force
3. All out



Mace has the superconducting loop, but Caedus has more versatility (in the force)

Both have the Shatterpoint ability.

1. Mace
2. Caedus
3. Mace

Any fight vs. a darksider (with the exception of Nihilus) and Mace is going to have the advantage, solely because of Vaapad. If Mace can toss back even Sidious' lightning, then Caedus' force attacks aren't going to work much better. It's going to come down to sabers to decide the all out, and when that happens Vaapad is going to chew Jacen up...regardless of how good a saber duelist he is.

Sidious was holding back, and Mace was still on the brink of eating his own lightsaber. He didn't have any strength left to struggle with the Emperor. Jacen is the 2nd best duelist in the age, and WTFpwnd several Jedi at once, and I hate to say it, because I might sound like a fanboy, but Luke is approaching godhood- and Jacen is competitive with Luke.

Originally posted by Enyalus
1. Mace
2. Caedus
3. Mace

Any fight vs. a darksider (with the exception of Nihilus) and Mace is going to have the advantage, solely because of Vaapad. If Mace can toss back even Sidious' lightning, then Caedus' force attacks aren't going to work much better. It's going to come down to sabers to decide the all out, and when that happens Vaapad is going to chew Jacen up...regardless of how good a saber duelist he is. An advantage is quite different from a guaranteed win. And why is Nihilus barred from that rule?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
An advantage is quite different from a guaranteed win. And why is Nihilus barred from that rule?

Yeah. I think anyone who'd guarantee a win for one side or the other would be foolish, because both are exceptional duelists. Advantage though, definitely.

As for the Nihilus thing...erm, follow my logic here and please correct where you see fit - it's been ages since I've played KOTOR 2 (I did recently reread Unseen, Unheard though.)

So, in order for Vaapad to do anything special...superconducting loop and whatnot, you have to be in the Force at the time, because Vaapad utilizes the Force and the dark side. I'd think that if you disconnected yourself from it, it'd just be an offshoot style of Form VII and nothing very special.

If that's granted, that's very important because Mace would most likely need to disconnect from the Force in order to fight Darth Nihilus. Nihilus can sense ALL force users in the galaxy for one. Not to mention that it's widely acknowledged that Mace's strongest department is not in the Force, it's with the blade. Nihilus would thus either end up feeding/severing/draining him, or Force Crush et cetera him easily.

That being said, the only option Mace would have is to disconnect from the Force and engage him in saber combat. We have no conclusive proof from the game, but Wookeepedia's article said Nihilus was an exceptional duelist (just hardly needed to use it). And if you think about it, nearly every single Jedi/Sith powerful in the Force was also a good duelist, so that makes sense.

Without Vaapad's bonuses, Mace would have an unfamiliar style and a fairly fast and athletic attack sequence....against someone who is also a skilled duelist, and has precog abilities. Would Mace even have his shatterpoint ability if he looped out of the Force?

Anyway, that's my reasoning for thinking Mace would go down against Nihilus. I think the only beings who would be able to beat him are NJO Luke, DE Sidious, AOTC Yoda (possibly), or another wound in the force, such as the Jedi Exile.

What do you think? That's my messed up, backwards reasoning, lol.

No, i see what you're saying, but doesn't it take Nihilus awhile to do his force drain technique? I doubt his sword play is on Mace's level, so if Mace can rush him and draw his sword, Nihilus could be taken down. I think too many people put too much faith in his drain/eat thing. But that's the name of the game, I guess.

As far as the sever is concerned, all it took in his attempt to cripple the Exile was a wave of his hand, and he temporarily ruined Kreia's connection to the Force with a similar gesture while simultaneously knocking her off her feet.

Hmmm. Well that... sucks. I swear to god, I wish some of uber force power lovers wrote shit for Anakin so the Chosen One could have some type of credibility to his moniker. Anakin was shat upon by the flanneled one himself.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Hmmm. Well that... sucks. I swear to god, I wish some of uber force power lovers wrote shit for Anakin so the Chosen One could have some type of credibility to his moniker. Anakin was shat upon by the flanneled one himself.That'd be even worse, given that Kenobi matched Anakin's Force-strength. But yeah, the "drain," Force-storms (and anything post-RotJ), Sidious' face, Yoda's dueling style, the number of soldiers in the Clone army, Darth Bane, the entire PT plotline, the "Chosen One" concept's realization, Jar Jar Binks (Oh. My. God.), the the KotOR videogame plotline (the comics are better, as is the tie-in in SW Tales), the Ancient Sith and their amulets, and the god-****ing Ewoks should all be done away with.

Looking back on that, SW needs to be revamped. Hell, I could do a better job of putting together the post-80's series than Lucas and his shit-faced employees did, although that's likely because he showed us what not to do.

That said, Lucas is one of the most uniquely creative people I know of. Props to him for Star Wars in general, but a kick in the balls for some of the saga's glaring flaws.

I agree. His original visions were groundbreaking and changed the face of movie making and thusly, created the "blockbuster" movie. However, it pisses me off that Anakin, who is the Chosen One, and was even noted as being "the most powerful knight the Order has ever known," is virtually laughed at when it comes to his force prowess prior to becoming Mech Vader. Yet in all these sub plots and EU stories, characters virtually force gods and can do uncanny shit. Destroy planets, races of people, move moons, wipe out entire fleets, use uber amulet blasts... all that shit, and Anakin is a sub-par force performer, despite Lucas saying in commentaries that he can do things hat no one else can.

Even though his word is gospel, he doesn't give us any examples really, except when he jumps from his speeder to Zam's (when Lucas said that in AoTC). I dunno, maybe it's just because Anakin and Vader are my favorite character(s). But still, the Chosen One should have some great feats to his credibility.

1. Mace Windu
2. Darth Caedus
3. Darth Caedus

Originally posted by Faunus
That'd be even worse, given that Kenobi matched Anakin's Force-strength. But yeah, the "drain," Force-storms (and anything post-RotJ), Sidious' face, Yoda's dueling style, the number of soldiers in the Clone army, Darth Bane, the entire PT plotline, the "Chosen One" concept's realization, Jar Jar Binks (Oh. My. God.), the the KotOR videogame plotline (the comics are better, as is the tie-in in SW Tales), the Ancient Sith and their amulets, and the god-****ing Ewoks should all be done away with.

Looking back on that, SW needs to be revamped. Hell, I could do a better job of putting together the post-80's series than Lucas and his shit-faced employees did, although that's likely because he showed us what not to do.

I think the drain and Force storm concepts are fine, so long as there are no Force Storms allowed in space, massive enough to destroy an entire fleet (what the hell was up with that?).

Sidious' face and Jar Jar Binks, I totally agree with you, lol. But...how come you no like da Ewoks? They're cute and fuzzy and...and...oh, I just thought of a great concept. The Ewok Army vs. the Spartans from 300.

I really liked Yoda's fighting style. It seems to make sense, given how short he is. Can't very well land a killing blow if you're aiming at the ankles now can you? And do we really want him moving like Obi-Wan does in A New Hope? The Sith magic was a little overdone, whatwith being able to cause supernovas and the like. But I like the fact that they made the older and lost techniques/race pretty powerful. History major here.

As for Bane, I really liked his story. I thought he was a much more compelling antihero than Vader. Anakin just seemed like an arrogant and whiny brat, whereas Bane was much more mature with a better sense of morality. He ends up killing his rival and regrets it immediately, as well as accidentally killing his extremely abusive father and regretting that, too. Much more "human," when compared to an Anakin who slaughtered the entire Jedi Temple, younglings and all, plus the Sand People massacre. The only real horrific act Bane committed was killing 3 boys and their father, and he was forced to do that for survival. He was also powerful, but not overly so until he he gained the orbalisks - even that came with a downside. He isn't a perfect character like Reven. I know I for one would have liked him to show a bit more sensitivity towards Zannah.

One thing I don't like is how overpowered//hyped the PT era is. You've got Yoda, most powerful Jedi ever. Mace, maybe the best Jedi duelist ever. Cin, one of the best Jedi duelist ever. Fisto, supposedly one of the best Jedi duelists ever. Maul, perhaps the deadliest apprentice ever. Anakin/Vader, the Chosen One (enough said). Dooku, one of the most powerful Jedi in their order's history and a stronger Sith Lord. And of course Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

I'm sure I'm missing a few overpowered guys in there...I guess you can add Shaak Ti, considering all the hyperbole surrounding her prowess. It's just...tone it down, ya know? The old guys had to be pretty good, too. And that's why I don't mind guys like Nihilus and Bane being vastly overpowered considering their eras. So we'll have something to talk about here on vs. forums.

The final thing I could do without is pretty much everything after ROTJ. I don't necessarily mind the concept, I mind how powerful they are. No Jedi or Sith besides a Skywalker (or Solo by consequence) should be incredibly powerful. That means Kyle Katern and the like. Shouldn't be anywhere near PT era in terms of power, regardless of how they explained relearning lightsaber forms from holocrons, et cetera.

Okay, done with the addon rant.

I'll add a little bit, I have to say that having sith after RotJ, and dropping a moon on Chewie were both poor decisions. "Balance to the Force" means no Sith, and Moons should not hit people. Other than that, I still want to know why people didn't like midichlorians.

I loved the midichlorian explanation. It explained why certain people have Force affinity and why others don't, and degrees of Force skill, etc.

The midichlorians rape old peoples' (People who were around and old enough to understand and enjoy the OT when it was in theaters) childhood. The force went from a mystical gay fairy-tale thing to a mystical gay fairy tale thing with a scientific explanation. People don't like that in their gay mystical fairy tales.

I know that I don't like science in my gay mystical fairy tales.

But really, had Yoda or OB1 mentioned it in the OT, it would have been fine. But they just needed a way to show that Anakin was more powerful than Yoda. And then they switch it from an obvious ratio count to a total number count. Its, for a lack of a better term, and as Blax put it, gay.

What is the alternative?

Qui-Gon: "Anakin has the potential to become the most powerful Jedi ever. Stronger even than Master Yoda."

Obi-Wan: "What? How do you know that?"

Qui-Gon: "He's the Chosen One."

Obi-Wan: "What makes you think that?"

Qui-Gon: "The Living Force tells me so."

Obi-Wan: "Oh...*mutters under his breath* crazy old man."

This actually gave a reason why. What I don't get is why Luke has the same midichlorian count as Anakin. He should either be the watered down version of Anakin, or even greater Force potential (maybe Padme's midichlorian + Anakin's). Does anyone understand that??

If the force speaks to you, then yea. That would be better. Or Yoda could have acknowledged it.

The 'total count' threw me too, but I rationalize it as the number of MCs within one cell. Other people don't like it, and I would personally have kept the 'mystical (gay energy field) that connects us all'. I do like that there is a mechanism, but it should not have been explained in the movie.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If the force speaks to you, then yea. That would be better. Or Yoda could have acknowledged it. But... that's gay.

So are midichlorians.