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Do not know if this has been done before.

Duel takes place in front of the emperor. Emperor is encouraging Luke to embrace the dark side.

You've got to be freaking kidding. Just how good do you think Luke is with only a few weeks of training?

Dooku pulls Luke apart at the seams. He has force superiority, and more experience dueling. He beat Mace, pwnd AotC Kenobi and Anakin, stood up to YODA, and has been called 'one of the best duelists in the order's 25000 year history' (and that was pre- darkside)

C-U-R-B-S-T-O-M-P.

There's no way Christopher Lee can beat Mark Hamill. Just, no way...

I think you got it a little backwards. Mark Hamil was Luke, and had about 3 months of training. Chris Lee was Dooku, and clowned Kenobi / is OMG PWN!

I no longer want to hear people say he stood up to Yoda. Yoda was not trying in any form or fashion to hurt Dooku. If he wanted to he could have taken out Dooku faster than Anakin did.

Also Luke only had a few weeks of training? Is that canon or your opinion?

Anakin may have had more force potential than Vader but not more knowledge of the force. Vader was more dangerous than Anakin every was and Luke took him down.

Yes we can say, which I believe Vader did not want to hurt Luke but that sure is not stopping people from saying that Dooku stood up to Yoda.

Originally posted by Jbill311
I think you got it a little backwards. Mark Hamil was Luke, and had about 3 months of training. Chris Lee was Dooku, and clowned Kenobi / is OMG PWN!

FAIL. You cannot understand that Mark Hamill proceeded to do the voice of the Joker, who can magic pencil tricks. Therefore, it is logical to assume that Luke can also do magic pencil tricks.

Luke does a pencil trick on Dooku. Pwned.

This is a good matchup. I believe that if Luke embraces the darkside, he beats Dooku.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
This is a good matchup. I believe that if Luke embraces the darkside, he beats Dooku.

Funny guy...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Funny guy... You gotta remember Luke has youth and stamina on his side. This is what enabled Obi Wan to defeat Maul when Qui Gon couldnt.

I don't have time to get into a debate with you at the moment- I gotta go soon- but Dooku has perfected his mastery of Makashi (the dueling form, mind you) over his extensive lifespan to its apex. He can defeat General Grievous- Mr. 20 strikes per second- in combat, tool two talented Jedi in the form of Sora Bulq and Tholme while fatigued from fighting the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known', and has an incredible mastery of the force and experience in dueling. He doesn't even need to engage Luke in a duel- if he could took Ventress, Luke's superior in the force via force abilities alone, I'm certain he could do the same to Luke. With ridiculous ease.

By the way, badass sig you got there.

So he defeated Grievous, didnt ROTS Kenobi do the same?


and thanx.

Yes. RotS Kenobi, the ultimate master of Soresu (the form best-suited to duel Grievous) defeated him. Do you really want to compare RotS Kenobi and Luke, though?

And no problem.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yes. RotS Kenobi, the ultimate master of Soresu (the form best-suited to duel Grievous) defeated him. Do you really want to compare RotS Kenobi and Luke, though?

And no problem. Nah I guess not. I thought you were going, LIAR!!! haermm

dooku absolutely shitstomps ROTJ luke in every category. dooku is extremely adept in both his usage of the force, and in his skills with a lightsaber. luke, on the otherhand, reminded me of stevie wonder trying to hit a pinata with a flyswatter. at best.

You got to be kidding me, ROTJ Luke swings a lightsaber like he is Adam Dunn at the plate.

2 things

1) experience doesnt always equal win, dooku had 3 times as much training as anakin but still lost to him. qui gon had 2 times as much training as maul but still lost to him. so expirience =/= win.

2) they didnt have the neccesary tools to make OT look impressive, there is no need to be starstruck with CGI. if they had it back then opinions would be reveresed

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
This is a good matchup. I believe that if Luke embraces the darkside, he beats Dooku.

Dooku kills Luke with his lightsaber before Luke can embrace the darkside but if Luke could survive long enough to use the dark side Dooku use force lighting, just like when he used it on Anakin in AOTC

Originally posted by Icy Ninja
Dooku kills Luke with his lightsaber before Luke can embrace the darkside but if Luke could survive long enough to use the dark side Dooku use force lighting, just like when he used it on Anakin in AOTC We dont know whether or not Luke can block force lightning with his saber like Kenobi did in AOTC.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
We dont know whether or not Luke can block force lightning with his saber like Kenobi did in AOTC.

But we do know that when a jedi use's the dark side they might not think as they normally would. When Luke used the dark side against Vader he rushed in to attack him just like Anakin did at the start of his duel against dooku in AOTC. Kenobi was most likely prepared to block force lighting as he just witnessed Dooku use against Anakin while on the other hand Luke has no experience by that time against some one who can use force lighting

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You gotta remember Luke has youth and stamina on his side. This is what enabled Obi Wan to defeat Maul when Qui Gon couldnt. Youth and stamina let OB1 win? Uh, no. Maul's hubris did that. Maul was clearly the more superior fighter. OB1 got lucky, plain and simple.

Dooku wtfpwns Luke before he can whine about Toshi Station and power converters.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Youth and stamina let OB1 win? Uh, no. Maul's hubris did that. Maul was clearly the more superior fighter. OB1 got lucky, plain and simple.

Dooku wtfpwns Luke before he can whine about Toshi Station and power converters.

QFT

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Youth and stamina let OB1 win? Uh, no. Maul's hubris did that. Maul was clearly the more superior fighter. OB1 got lucky, plain and simple.Not to mention that Maul was actually younger than Kenobi, and physically conditioned to hell.

I was going to say that, but i didn't know he age for sure.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
There's no way Christopher Lee can beat Mark Hamill. Just, no way...

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1289/863609859a7197493907l1hq2.jpg

Originally posted by Rampant ox
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1289/863609859a7197493907l1hq2.jpg LOL!!!! Holy shit, I was not expecting that at all! Oh shit, I'm crying right now.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Youth and stamina let OB1 win? Uh, no. Maul's hubris did that. Maul was clearly the more superior fighter.

Grammar weeps at the question talker.

"Question talker?"

Grammar certainly is weeping. In my case, however, a typo is completely different.

It is a Sienfeld reference. One of the characters' rivals was a 'question talker. I just thought it was funny because I think you called Kotor3 on it in another thread (so did I) and it made me laugh.

No offense.

Oh, my bad. Not much of a Seinfeld watcher.

Originally posted by Jbill311
Grammar weeps at the question talker. Better than a close talker, or even a regifter.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I no longer want to hear people say he stood up to Yoda. Yoda was not trying in any form or fashion to hurt Dooku. If he wanted to he could have taken out Dooku faster than Anakin did.


huh? not trying to hurt dooku at all??? whered you get that from?? "If we catch Dooku we can end this war right now" "Anakin youll be expelled from the Jedi Order.."

Clearly if Yoda could have stopped Dooku escaping he WOULD HAVE!!

Originally posted by Rampant ox
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1289/863609859a7197493907l1hq2.jpg

http://pythonnoob.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/noob.jpg

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
huh? not trying to hurt dooku at all??? whered you get that from?? "If we catch Dooku we can end this war right now" "Anakin youll be expelled from the Jedi Order.."

Clearly if Yoda could have stopped Dooku escaping he WOULD HAVE!! Sorry, but you're wrong here. It was clearly stated that Yoda only wanted to capture Dooku, not harm and certainly not kill him. The only reason he escaped was because he endangered Anakin and OB1's lives. That's why Yoda stopped pursuing Doouk and focused on saving his Jedi. Same thing with their 2nd encounter.

Gideon and Advent, and I'm sure Lightsnake, have the exact quote when Yoda's speaking to, I believe, Mace. But the bottom line is that Yoda in no way wanted to hurt Dooku.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
2 things

1) experience doesnt always equal win, dooku had 3 times as much training as anakin but still lost to him. qui gon had 2 times as much training as maul but still lost to him. so expirience =/= win.

2) they didnt have the neccesary tools to make OT look impressive, there is no need to be starstruck with CGI. if they had it back then opinions would be reveresed

1. AotC Anakin- while possessing double Luke's training, the same level of raw power, far superior training and access to teachers was still tooled by Dooku. Guess what? RotJ Luke will also get tooled by Dooku. Experience DOES matter.

2. Whatever GL says- even if it sounds like bullshit and ridiculous statements- is automatically canon. Even if his explanation sounds horrible, it's still canonical. You cannot argue with that.

Dooku tools the shit out of Luke. Don't be ridiculous.

Experience matters to a degree, then talent and skill comes into play. In this particular case, it does. But obviously with the instances he just gave, it didn't.

Yes. But Maul was better trained, better physically conditioned, and more technically skilled than Qui-Gon ('high-end master of multiple forms')- he possessed countless advantages over him. Anakin had raw power well in access of Dooku's, was stronger, faster, and in better physical conditioning. Aside from raw power- which Luke, by the point of RotJ, still cannot truly tap into- Luke has none of these advantages over Dooku.

Oh I'm not saying Luke wins or even lasts long, I'm just commenting on experience.

Yeah, I know. I was just... commenting. Lol. And it'll also put a dent in MoC's inevitable reply.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
http://pythonnoob.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/noob.jpg

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2688/babytoiletfail1tw8.jpg

Originally posted by Rampant ox
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2688/babytoiletfail1tw8.jpg

http://www.themadhat.com/images/vader-fail.jpg

Ox, whats that line about Dooku and his saber form? Ultimate refinement...blah blah blah... I can't remember or find it.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Sorry, but you're wrong here. It was clearly stated that Yoda only wanted to capture Dooku, not harm and certainly not kill him. The only reason he escaped was because he endangered Anakin and OB1's lives. That's why Yoda stopped pursuing Doouk and focused on saving his Jedi. Same thing with their 2nd encounter.

Gideon and Advent, and I'm sure Lightsnake, have the exact quote when Yoda's speaking to, I believe, Mace. But the bottom line is that Yoda in no way wanted to hurt Dooku.

iv got that quote its from the AOTC novel. it goes "Capture Dooku, we must. If escape he does, he will rally more systems to his cause."

Thats very clear that Yoda could not allow Dooku to escape. Theres no mention there of not even hurting him to do so. So your going to have to tell me how exactly you reached that conclusion, because if its just from that quote thats HUGE speculation.

Mace also went to capture Sidious and not kill him (at first at least).. but does that mean he was holding back or wasnt willing to hurt him??

Gideon can better explain it than me, but Yoda was holding back on Dooku. If he wanted Dooku dead, then guess what Dooku would have been... dead.

Mace went to arrest Sidious, When he said something, his crew was bum-rushed and he killed three Jedi Masters, then proceeded to try to kill Mace. Mace was going all out and bested Sidious in SABER combat, but that's at. Once Sidious even tried to hit him with lightning, it was over for Mace. It almost pushed his saber into his own face. Sidious only stopped cause Anakin needed to be turned.

First, Yoda specifically told Mace Windu during the Battle of Geonosis that Count Dooku must be "captured" before he rallied more worlds to the Confederacy's cause. Second, during the initial Force contest between the Count and the Grand Master, Dooku was on the offensive the whole time -- Yoda did not even attempt to strike back until the very final salvo of Force lightning; Dooku conceded the round to him and then attempted to gain a victory through a lightsaber. Third, Yoda allowed Dooku to flee Geonosis, saving the lives of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, despite the fact that a.) he wasn't one hundred percent positive that Skywalker was the Chosen One and b.) he would later tell Kenobi during Revenge of the Sith that "a real Jedi" would be willing to sacrifice any other member of the Order if it meant that the Clone Wars would end an "hour" sooner. Still, rather than injuring his former padawan, he allowed Dooku to escape. Windu himself would later lament on doing the same thing in Shatterpoint; he regretted not taking Dooku's life at Geonosis.

Fourth and most importantly, Yoda: Dark Rendezvous depicts Grand Master Yoda traveling to Vjun, a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force and controlled by the Confederacy, for a negotiation with Count Dooku; the entire Council know that it is a trap, for Dooku to use the strong dark side presence to enhance his powers and either turn Yoda to the dark side or to try to kill him. Inevitably, they fight and -- despite hurling a woman out a window and forcing Yoda to use telekinesis to save her while simultaneously attacking him -- Count Dooku is unable to defeat Yoda in combat and retreats, even after Yoda tells him he doesn't wish to hurt him.

Conclusion: despite his prodigious strength in the Force and mastery of Makashi, Count Dooku is in no way a match for Yoda. He is not a rival nor an equal. Had Yoda attacked Dooku in the same manner in which he attacked his Sith Master, Darth Sidious, in the Senate Rotunda, Dooku would have been crushed.

See? Told you.

Side note. Gideon, when Yoda was talking to OB1 about a "real Jedi," under what context was it? Whom were the referring to? Anakin? Just curious cause I'd never heard that line before. Rather intriguing.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
See? Told you.

Side note. Gideon, when Yoda was talking to OB1 about a "real Jedi," under what context was it? Whom were the referring to? Anakin? Just curious cause I'd never heard that line before. Rather intriguing.

Essentially, a true Jedi would be willing to sacrifice any of their number in order to bring about a closure to the Clone Wars. Even more curiously, this seems to conflict with the strategem and doctrine of Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order.

Well there's numerous notable differences between the Order of old and Luke's NJO. Changes that I believe were necessities for a greater understanding of the force, promoting a more secure fixture within the lightside of the force; what with being allowed to have emotions and relationships. Granted, that's not the only benefits, but overall, one would have to say that the NJO is more powerful (on the whole) than the previous Order, despite Skywalker blood running rampant.

But thanks. I just didn't know what brought about the conversation between the two.

I think in sabers, Luke wins. The other categories, Force and All-Out, Dooku wins.

Are you high?

*shrugs* Possibly. It's boring though, everyone having the same opinion.

Even in ESB, Luke was able to kick Vader off of the freezing platform as well as strike him with his lightsaber on the shoulder. In ROTJ, he absolutely overpowered and dominated Vader...very reminiscent of Anakin's domination of Dooku in ROTS. Luke uses a modified Form V, which wouldn't be totally unfamiliar, but it would be awkward.

And yes, I know that PT Vader > OT Vader's saber skills, but this was the same mech Vader who killed numerous Jedi as well as a ressurected Darth Maul.

So. Meh. Those are my reasons.

Boring, but we're right. You know it. Now stop being troublesome lest I revoke your avatarness.

Originally posted by Faunus
Boring, but we're right. You know it. Now stop being troublesome lest I revoke your avatarness.

Hm...I'll admit you all are right if you all admit that in sabers, it won't be a stomp.

Except it would be. In fact, it would be such a curbstomp that the time stream would implode upon itself, Anakin would see Luke getting carved up inside of a second, and would then decide never to have children out of shame.

Originally posted by Faunus
Except it would be. In fact, it would be such a curbstomp that the time stream would implode upon itself, Anakin would see Luke getting carved up inside of a second, and would then decide never to have children out of shame.

Come now. I highly doubt that a parent can be so ashamed of their child that they regret having given birth to him or her. After all, Faunus, your parents still love you, don't they?

Originally posted by Gideon
Come now. I highly doubt that a parent can be so ashamed of their child that they regret having given birth to him or her. After all, Faunus, your parents still love you, don't they?

Epic burn...

But anyways, if ROTJ Luke fights at the level he did when he overpowered Vader, there's absolutely no possibility that Dooku would be able to effectively duel him. Especially using a varied style Dooku's never seen.

ROTJ Luke's Strength > Vader's strength > Anakin's Strength > Dooku's Strength.

Hierarchy FTW.

Originally posted by Gideon
Come now. I highly doubt that a parent can be so ashamed of their child that they regret having given birth to him or her. After all, Faunus, your parents still love you, don't they?How's your psychotic mother? As a parent, I mean; she's great at everything else.

Originally posted by Faunus
How's your psychotic mother? As a parent, I mean; she's great at everything else.

She is, actually, extremely psychotic. You should hear our arguments. She's bipolar.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Epic burn...Quiet.
The "varied" style being a complete absence of one?
Dooku's skill > Vader's skill > Anakin's skill > Luke's skill

Anakin defeated Dooku through sheer power and ferocity, but he wielded tremendous skill as well. Luke's just an angry little man with a shitload of untapped power. And unless the Count mentions a twin sister, Skywalker Jr. gets carved up.
Slaves FTW.

Jesus. Now it's a love triangle. Homos.

I disagree. Even in ESB he showed tremendous skill to, basically, duel Vader evenly - even scoring one saber hit on Vader. In ROTJ, Luke once again duels him evenly, kicking him down stairs and whatnot. Then when he gets pissed he dominates. Soooo,

Dooku's skills > Vader's skill = Luke's skill > Anakin's skill?

Search your feelings, Faunus. You know it to be true.

You're officially a disgraced avatar.

Anakin has at least as much Force potential as Luke as of RotS, plus thirteen years of quality training, thousands of hours of sparring to the point that he had mastered his form and even begun to incorporate advanced elements of all styles into his own, and had surprised Dooku himself with his skill and mastery.

Luke has, at best, Anakin's potential, a few weeks of rushed and limited training which he didn't even complete, one lightsaber duel against a Sith Lord who was holding back considerably, three years of mixed experience, and no true skill in any of the recognized forms whatsoever.

Anakin would waste Luke, easily.

I was using your skill heirarchy...*whistles innocently*




Just admit it wouldn't be easy for Dooku to beat Luke in sabers, and we can all go home. Oh yeah, Luke has terrain advantage also. Dooku's never been on the Death Star.

Fine. It wouldn't be easy for Dooku - with a gunshot wound to the stomach, no right arm, arthritis, and cholera - to defeat Luke with Civil War sabers. Now, go home.

Meh. Good enough.

Dooku kicks seven shades of shit out of him

I dnt totally disagree.. and I understand what your saying, but I would like to point a few things out if thats ok.

Originally posted by Gideon
First, Yoda specifically told Mace Windu during the Battle of Geonosis that Count Dooku must be "captured" before he rallied more worlds to the Confederacy's cause.

I know Yoda didnt go there to assassinate Dooku the way he did with Sidious. So therefore didnt go All Out against him.

As you have already stated he just wanted to Capture him, because his mission was to stop Dooku from escaping. Probably because there was no real proof at that time that Dooku was a Sith. It was only when Yoda faced Dooku that he confidently stated "the Dark Side I sense in you.."

Even if there was proof Dooku was a Sith being Jedis they would still probably try to capture him first. Like Mace tried with Sidious, and like Anakin should have done with Dooku in ROTS.

But I just think its a bit of a jump to say Yoda wasnt trying at all.. and wuldnt have been willing to hurt Dooku in any way. I mean lets face it, he could have chopped off Dookus hands the way Anakin did, and still "Capture" him.


Originally posted by Gideon
Second, during the initial Force contest between the Count and the Grand Master, Dooku was on the offensive the whole time -- Yoda did not even attempt to strike back until the very final salvo of Force lightning; Dooku conceded the round to him and then attempted to gain a victory through a lightsaber.

yes Yoda did not really go on the offensive in the Force fight, apart from that 1 shot. but the novel states that Yoda deflects Dookus Force attacks "far from easily," and that was Yoda taking a defensive posture against him. He clearly was on the offensive in the lightsaber battle though. and the novel states Yoda to be exhausted after that fight. Clealry if that fight was a breeze for him and he wasnt trying at all, then he would not have been tired.

Also in Schism, Yoda tells Mace he doesnt need to spar as he had practice enough against Count Dooku. So Clearly fighting Dooku was at the very least a good sparring session for Yoda.

Originally posted by Gideon

Third, Yoda allowed Dooku to flee Geonosis, saving the lives of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, despite the fact that a.) he wasn't one hundred percent positive that Skywalker was the Chosen One and b.) he would later tell Kenobi during Revenge of the Sith that "a real Jedi" would be willing to sacrifice any other member of the Order if it meant that the Clone Wars would end an "hour" sooner. Still, rather than injuring his former padawan, he allowed Dooku to escape. Windu himself would later lament on doing the same thing in Shatterpoint; he regretted not taking Dooku's life at Geonosis.

Well I think that shows Yodas love for more for Obi1 and Anakin than for Dooku, considering he specifically told mace they can not allow dooku to escape. I dnt think Anakin being the chosen 1 or not is really relevant. he was still a fellow jedi, and too many jedi padawans had already died that day.

Yes Mace says he should have killed Dooku even if it meant Jango Fett shooting Mace down. after Geonosis Mace was willing to give his life to take down Dooku, which is the reaosn I say that Dooku fleeing from Mace in Obsessions is understandable, considering Mace was willing to take down Dooku now even if Mace had to also die. Dooku however had no such motivation to fight Mace to the death.

Also starwars.com says Dooku fled yoda as he was "unable to gain an advantage" in the fight.

Originally posted by Gideon
Fourth and most importantly, Yoda: Dark Rendezvous depicts Grand Master Yoda traveling to Vjun, a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force and controlled by the Confederacy, for a negotiation with Count Dooku; the entire Council know that it is a trap, for Dooku to use the strong dark side presence to enhance his powers and either turn Yoda to the dark side or to try to kill him. Inevitably, they fight and -- despite hurling a woman out a window and forcing Yoda to use telekinesis to save her while simultaneously attacking him -- Count Dooku is unable to defeat Yoda in combat and retreats, even after Yoda tells him he doesn't wish to hurt him.

Yoda risked his life goin to Vjun because he felt he had to take the chance to save billions of lives by negotiating the end of the clone wars.

he mentioned he did not wish to hurt him at the start of the fight, but as the fight progressed he told the count he will kill him.

also people tend to miss the fact that Vjuns darkness was making Yoda more fierce and more dark than he usually is. Dooku actually brought him there to try and turn him to the dark side.

and as for the fight it was made very clear that Yoda was overpowering him "Slowly, slowly.."

Originally posted by Gideon
Conclusion: despite his prodigious strength in the Force and mastery of Makashi, Count Dooku is in no way a match for Yoda. He is not a rival nor an equal. Had Yoda attacked Dooku in the same manner in which he attacked his Sith Master, Darth Sidious, in the Senate Rotunda, Dooku would have been crushed.

I agree. But I do think Dooku is one of the very few good enough to put up a decent fight first. and to put up some competition.

Anyone else notice that in AOTC, where even then Anakin managed to put up a decent fight against Dooku...after Anakin's beaten, Dooku looks pretty winded and even sighs in, what very clearly looks like, fatigue?

I don't know what the novelization said about it, but the in the movie that was interesting. Especially with Lucas' emphasis on facial expressions.

Did Luke only receive a few weeks of training between ESB and ROTJ? I always thought he was away for a few months or even a year.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Did Luke only receive a few weeks of training between ESB and ROTJ? I always thought he was away for a few months or even a year.

I don't know, and it doesn't even really matter. He had a great showing against Darth Effing Vader in his first ever lightsaber battle, then absolutely dominates and overpowers him in their second.

Evidently, experience doesn't make much of a difference if you're a Skywalker. You can't simply toss out him beating Vader because the saber duel didn't look as good as the PT fights. Less technology, less (or no) choreographers. The feat still stands.

And since, according to Faunus' scale, Vader's skill trumphs Anakin's, yet we see Luke beating Vader (pretty badly, even before Vader pissed him off)...Luke's skill must be higher than Anakin's, regardless of years of training or not.

And Mech Vader was clearly physically stronger than Anakin, yet Luke goes blow for blow with him, breaking saber locks and when angry, surpasses his strength.

Compare that to a Dooku who looked winded in AOTC from taking on Obi-Wan and Anakin, and a Dooku who got beaten by Anakin in The Clone Wars, and a Dooku who got absolutely massacred by Anakin in ROTS - add it all up, and Dooku is in serious trouble against Luke when it comes to a pure saber battle.

Also, like I brought up before, Luke uses Mech Vader's modified Form V, which Dooku hasn't seen and would catch him by surprise.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't know, and it doesn't even really matter. He had a great showing against Darth Effing Vader in his first ever lightsaber battle, then absolutely dominates and overpowers him in their second.Vader is holding back in both.

"So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me."

While Gethzerion, a completely inferior being, is about to kill him with the Force.


Sure it does. Luke did defeat a restrained, unwilling, conflicted Vader. And your rather foolish assertion that experience doesn't matter to a Skywalker is rendered invalid by the fact that Anakin, whose potential at least equaled that of his son, had thirteen years of quality training and thousands of hours of sparring compared to Luke's weeks of rushed training and zero hours of sparring.


Vader's skill is greater as a Sith than it was as a Jedi, but he needs all that extra practice and technical ability because he's slower and considerably less powerful than he was in his youth. Anakin would handily defeat his older self in a duel, Lucas makes this quite clear.


Again, holding back. What would Luke do against a Force-push or choke coming from a man with eight-tenths the power of the Emperor?


Back-to-back, and then proceeded to engage Yoda in a duel that left the Jedi Master "exhausted."


Lies. Anakin ran away to go save his apprentice. When he tried to Force-push the Count at one point, he had his attack redirected at him and ended up on his ass without a lightsaber.


Due to his own arrogance at first and a relative lack of strength. He could've decimated him with the Force at any point.


No, add it all up and you have a bunch of bullshit, and you trying desperately to give Luke a fighting chance where he has none.


Luke trying to imitate his father's style equates to him "using" it? No.

He's impressive enough for the scarcity of training and experience he has, I'll give him that much. But he is far from being to compete on any level with the likes of any quality swordsmen.

Very true. In another two years Luke essentially becomes pretty damned fine with a saber and by DE he's incredible with it. But by ROTJ? He's good, but not to the level Dooku occupies.

I know he's holding back in ESB. I wasn't aware he was holding back when it came to sabers in ROTJ.

And granted, if Vader had used his force attacks, Luke would've been killed, and easily. And we all agree that Count Dooku would destroy ROTJ Luke in both the Force and All-Out. I was only saying that Luke has a chance against Dooku in sabers, for the reasons I've mentioned previously.

It's fine if no one agrees with me. Like I care.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Very true. In another two years Luke essentially becomes pretty damned fine with a saber and by DE he's incredible with it. But by ROTJ? He's good, but not to the level Dooku occupies.He gets disarmed by Sidious inside of a few seconds - hardly Yoda-class swordsmanship.

But yeah, I'll grant that he's pretty extraordinary due to his unmatched power, but he has no real skill until he meets Kyle Katarn and starts up the Praxeum.

Originally posted by Faunus
He gets disarmed by Sidious inside of a few seconds - hardly Yoda-class swordsmanship.

But yeah, I'll grant that he's pretty extraordinary due to his unmatched power, but he has no real skill until he meets Kyle Katarn and starts up the Praxeum.
Well, in the Thrawn Trilogy, he sure holds his own in some rather tight scenarios, in Truce at Bakura, he really shows some skill when he takes on a rather powerful Nightsister and a huge cadre of stormies with a saber and takes them all out and DE describes as 'even more skilled' with a Jedi Lightsaber than he is with the Force and given he just blew an army of battledroids to pieces with a gesture, that's pretty damn skilled.

Granted, Palpatine wins their duel, but this is a younger, probably stronger Palpatine who's supposed to be something of an incredible duelist

Honestly, the only difference to me between RotJ Palpatine and his DE self is the younger body, and I don't really think his RotJ incarnation was tremendously more deadly than his RotS self. The clone is likely a more fit duelist, but I doubt he's that much better, really, and certainly not the god-like being he's been made out to be.

Originally posted by Faunus
Honestly, the only difference to me between RotJ Palpatine and his DE self is the younger body, and I don't really think his RotJ incarnation was tremendously more deadly than his RotS self. The clone is likely a more fit duelist, but I doubt he's that much better, really, and certainly not the god-like being he's been made out to be.

I'd love to agree with you, because I hate the whole 'Sidious is god' Sith worship...however, ROTJ Sidious has had, what, 22 years to continue his study of the Dark Side? Plus sometime between ROTJ and DE he develops the Force Storm, which is probably the most massively lethal Force technique ever. I say probably developed after ROTJ because, if by ROTJ he had that technique, why would he need the Death Star?

And the younger body ontop of that. So...

It's likely a result of Palpaitne's enhanced powers and a lack of the degeneration his normal body. Any way it's sliced, Palpatine's stronger by DE and an absolute demon in power, which translates to overwhelming enhanced abilities.

Originally posted by Faunus
Honestly, the only difference to me between RotJ Palpatine and his DE self is the younger body, and I don't really think his RotJ incarnation was tremendously more deadly than his RotS self. The clone is likely a more fit duelist, but I doubt he's that much better, really, and certainly not the god-like being he's been made out to be.

I agree with this. Though DE Sidious is powerful, ROTJ Sidious probably had alot of the same powers though he had no need to use them until Vader choke slammed him down the pit, and by then it was too late to summon up a force storm or something as it would require some undisturbed concentration.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Also, like I brought up before, Luke uses Mech Vader's modified Form V, which Dooku hasn't seen and would catch him by surprise.

Dookus familiar with all lightsaber forms, including Vapaad. Hes also very familiar with all their strengths and weaknesses. and his own Makashi is the best form for dueling anyway.

Don't diss Gethzerion. She's a freakin' beast. I think she exploded Han Solo's tooth with the Force, evaded the firepower of the Millennium Falcon, owned an entire contingent of stormtroopers, and challenged Palpatine enough that he recalled or destroyed all Imperial assets at Dathomir (sp?) out of fear of her escaping the planet.



No. Anakin attempted to use the Force to attack Dooku in a veritable sandstorm; Dooku was knocked back a bit and then used that Force energy against Anakin and hurled him down. He's no match for the Count in the Force, but he did have Dooku at his mercy in their lightsaber duel. It's as simple as that, sir.



Palpatine spent years on Byss recuperating and studying to become stronger in the dark side of the Force. His clone bodies allow him to rely less on the Force, even though, technically, his mastery of it has increased. Has he improved in skill? Probably not. But since he is in a more fit body and his abilities with the Force increased, he is no doubt a more dangerous combatant than before.

Originally posted by Gideon
Don't diss Gethzerion. She's a freakin' beast. I think she exploded Han Solo's tooth with the Force, evaded the firepower of the Millennium Falcon, owned an entire contingent of stormtroopers, and challenged Palpatine enough that he recalled or destroyed all Imperial assets at Dathomir (sp?) out of fear of her escaping the planet.Shows what I know. I thought Gethzerion was a man.
Meh. The duel was actually boring, and I was watching it on a low-quality, slow-ass laptop. Maybe I missed everything between that and the end.
That's kinda what I said. I agree that he's stronger, faster, and more powerful than he'd been in the past, but I doubt he'd walk all over his RotS or RotJ incarnations in combat.

And was his time on Byss during the post-RotJ period?

She certainly resembles one. It's my understanding that she's such a twisted old crone that, rather than the beautiful Nightsister she once was, she now resembles Palpatine with long white hair; I'm sure she's grown testicles in the interim.

By the way, she also obliterates those stormtroopers by waving a hand, as I recall.



The Clone Wars movie was decent, but the fight was boring, and it severely undermines the collective strength of the Separatists. It seems somewhat even between Count Dooku and Skywalker in blades, in the beginning, though he does outmaneuver him and technically kills "Rotta" (he really doesn't). When Skywalker attempts to use the Force against Dooku, he makes the Count stumble a bit, but then Dooku redirects an even stronger wave against Skywalker and sends him flying. But, finally, Anakin overpowers Dooku, disarms him, and has him at his mercy.

BTW, Sidious looks absolutely retarded in that movie. They give him a Jedi cloak that shows his legs and trousers. WTF?



I see. Well, I said it better. And it was post-RotJ. Palpatine didn't reveal himself until after three years of constant study to increase his strength in the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dookus familiar with all lightsaber forms, including Vapaad. Hes also very familiar with all their strengths and weaknesses. and his own Makashi is the best form for dueling anyway.

Considering Vader created his own version of Form V years after Dooku's death, Dooku wouldn't have knowledge of it. Sure, he'd recognize the Form V being used. He'd probably recognize the pieces of other forms thrown in. Instantly? No. Would it confuse/disrupt him? Probably so.

And Luke almost perfectly copied Mech Vader's form simply by watching and dueling him, instinctively. So while it isn't quite Vader's modified Form V, it's close enough.




I haven't seen the new movie....I'm debating whether or not to waste 5 bucks on it.

what-0? luke copied vaders form? do tell.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
what-0? luke copied vaders form? do tell. Didn't you hear? ROTJ Luke can stalemate anyone these days. Copying dad shouldn't be too hard.

Originally posted by Gideon
It seems somewhat even between Count Dooku and Skywalker in blades, in the beginning, though he does outmaneuver him and technically kills "Rotta" (he really doesn't). When Skywalker attempts to use the Force against Dooku, he makes the Count stumble a bit, but then Dooku redirects an even stronger wave against Skywalker and sends him flying. But, finally, Anakin overpowers Dooku, disarms him, and has him at his mercy.


huh?? thats not how I remember it?? Do i hav2 go watch it again??

I remember Dooku overpowering Anakin in the Force fight, and I rememeber Dooku disarming Anakin with the Force and almost killing him at that point.. Anakin just barely got his lightsaber back in time..

and I remember them being pretty even in lightsabers.. but then at the end Dooku had the upper hand, until he found out Rotta was at Jabbas palace.. then he found out that Ashoka was in trouble and started gloating which was when Anakin kicked him to the floor and ran off to save his apprentice.

So the lightsaber fight looked pretty even but winning it seemed more of a mind game.. whilst in the Force Fight Dooku was clearly Anakin superior. No questions.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Considering Vader created his own version of Form V years after Dooku's death, Dooku wouldn't have knowledge of it. Sure, he'd recognize the Form V being used. He'd probably recognize the pieces of other forms thrown in. Instantly? No. Would it confuse/disrupt him? Probably so.

Dooku was a lightsaber instructor at the Jedi Temple.. and instructed GG in all 7 forms of combat.. so whatever forms Vader uses in his style Dooku WILL instantly recognise it..

what would be difficult for Dooku would be to take advantages of the weaknesses of any particular form Vaders using as hes using many combined.

However it still doesnt change the fact that whatever combination Vaders using it still will not match Dookus Makashi in duelling prowess.


Originally posted by Enyalus
And Luke almost perfectly copied Mech Vader's form simply by watching and dueling him, instinctively. So while it isn't quite Vader's modified Form V, it's close enough.

what he almost perfectly copied Vaders form just with 1 year of practice??? unlikely..
also its not very likely Vader used any particularly advanced lightsaber moves on amateur Luke in ESB.


Originally posted by Enyalus
I haven't seen the new movie....I'm debating whether or not to waste 5 bucks on it.

Not much of a Star Wars fan then?? I hope your not judging by the reveiws, because all the Star Wars movies ALWAYS got terrible reveiws. It was just a question of which movie had less bad reveiws.

So he overpowered, beat, and severed Vader's arm in ROTJ how? Obi-Wan and Yoda never showed him any saber techniques. That was all him naturally copying Vader's style - the only duelist he had seen.

Originally posted by Enyalus
So he overpowered, beat, and severed Vader's arm in ROTJ how? Obi-Wan and Yoda never showed him any saber techniques. That was all him naturally copying Vader's style - the only duelist he had seen.

he did that in a fit of rage against a Vader who wasnt even trying to hurt Luke, and who again probably didnt use any particularly advanced moves on his son.

so how do u think he learned his sword fighting moves for the ESB duel??

Not try to hurt him?? Vader cuts off Luke's hand. In ESB no less.

He didn't learn the saber moves for ESB. The force was guiding his movements. Movements that mirrored Vader's form unconsciously.

And even before he was enraged he had the better of Vader and kicked him down the stairs. Vader even states, "if you will not fight, then you will be destroyed."

It's also clear that Leia was an option at that point to turn to the Dark Side, so Vader had no real reason to not try hurting him.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Not try to hurt him?? Vader cuts off Luke's hand. In ESB no less.
He never wanted to hurt Luke. He only incapacitated Luke after Luke tagged his shoulder and pissed him off. He could have just as easily lopped his head off.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He didn't learn the saber moves for ESB. The force was guiding his movements. Movements that mirrored Vader's form unconsciously.No, he was just swinging his saber around with minor pre-cog, and movements based on training with Remotes.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And even before he was enraged he had the better of Vader and kicked him down the stairs. Vader even states, "if you will not fight, then you will be destroyed." God damn it. I've already told you that Vader did not say that. What you're thinking of is when the Emperor says, "If you will not be turned, then you will be destroyed," All Vader says is, "If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny," and throws his saber near Luke, but at the landing fixture to bring him down to the ground. Refer to the whole conversation in the AT-AT when Vader was getting "soft."

Originally posted by Enyalus
It's also clear that Leia was an option at that point to turn to the Dark Side, so Vader had no real reason to not try hurting him. That was obviously a tactic to get into Luke's head and get him to come out of hiding. He wasn't expecting Luke to tap into the dark side and stat swinging his green Louisville Slugger at him. Plus he used NO force attacks (which he's rather fond of) and didn't do anything greatly offensive.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Vader did not want to hurt Luke. Luke even says at one time, "So this is what it would be like if Vader wanted to kill me," or something to that effect.

So using only minor pre-cog abilities and training with those blast-deflector droids he was able to kick Vader off of the carbon platform and score a hit on Vader's shoulder? No...just because it looked like he was waving his saber around wildly doesn't mean it was intended to be so. I don't even think they had choreographers for the first movies.

Obi-Wan looks horrible during ANH, even with the CGI enhancement. Are we to assume the same thing there that you're saying about Luke?



You're probably right about me confusing quotes. Sorry about that.

As for Luke using Vader's own Form V against him in ROTJ, it's confirmed in Star Wars Insider 62 under Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat. Canon.

Originally posted by Enyalus
So using only minor pre-cog abilities and training with those blast-deflector droids he was able to kick Vader off of the carbon platform and score a hit on Vader's shoulder? No...just because it looked like he was waving his saber around wildly doesn't mean it was intended to be so. I don't even think they had choreographers for the first movies. In ESB, yes. By RoTJ, he had to have had more practice and that, coupled with Vader not trying, a kick is really nothing.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Obi-Wan looks horrible during ANH, even with the CGI enhancement. Are we to assume the same thing there that you're saying about Luke? Completely different. Mark Hamil would smash Alec Guinness. And what CGI enhancements?



Originally posted by Enyalus
You're probably right about me confusing quotes. Sorry about that

As for Luke using Vader's own Form V against him in ROTJ, it's confirmed in Star Wars Insider 62 under Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat. Canon. All good.

And, do you have a quote? Just wanna know what it says exactly if you don't mind. Because for one, Vader customized his style to fit his limited mobility.

I don't have a quote.


When they recently remastered the OT, they ended up speeding up the duel between Obi-Wan and Vader, cutting out the extra time it actually takes their blades to connect with one another - which makes it look like they're fighting in superspeed for part of the fight. Really stupid, if you ask me.

Another reason the "O"OT is the best.