Darth Bane vs. Dooku

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DarthCuddles
Darth Bane ROT With Orbalisk's Vs. ROTS Dooku

1. Saber
2. Force
3. All Out

Location- Geonosis (where dooku fought yoda)

Galan007
1.) not sure. i don't recall bane dueling any opponents quite as skilled as dooku with a saber, so it's hard to say.
2.) bane
3.) bane

Jbill311
Dooku's Makashi (sp?) would grant him an advantage in hitting Bane's face (orbalisks) but Bane uses Djem So (i think) like Anakin, and the raw power of that style overwhelmed Dooku. I think it would narrowly go to Dooku, b/c of all of the prestige/ reverence the other blademasters of his time gave him.
Dooku also has Force lightning, so that's another advantage.

DarthCuddles
ok woah Darth Bane had amazing abilities force wise and with a sabre
1.he beat some of the best swordsmen in his!!!! ( Kas'Im and Raskta Lsu (who was powered by battle meditation)) he also destroyed the library at the sith acadamy on korriban and destroyed ruusan while performing the ritual with brotherhood of darkness!!! i think he can take dooku in all three honestly

tulakhordpwns
Bane wins all 3

DarthCuddles
ooopps sorry i forgot i was going to do a list
2. He turned a drexyl with human riding on it into a large pile of smoking ash
3. he was also able to pwn one of the strongest sith in the brotherhood (quodris)
3. he also was able to complete a feat that no other sith in the brotherhood was able to acomplish in not being controlled by Lord Kanns powers over the mind
4. and lastly the demolished an entire rakatan temple to kill kas'im

Lightsnake
Originally posted by DarthCuddles
ok woah Darth Bane had amazing abilities force wise and with a sabre
1.he beat some of the best swordsmen in his!!!! ( Kas'Im and Raskta Lsu (who was powered by battle meditation)) he also destroyed the library at the sith acadamy on korriban and destroyed ruusan while performing the ritual with brotherhood of darkness!!! i think he can take dooku in all three honestly
He didn't beat either of them in swordsmanship. He tricked Kas'im, who was his superior with a saber at the time and Zannah backstabbed Raskta.

And don't list feats he didn't perform on his own. Ruusan would be one of those

DarthCuddles
he was still able to beat him and nothing is stopping him from doing it to dooku

Lightsnake
Oh, so they're going to be in the Rakata temple and Dooku is going to dramatically pause after Bane is outside it to deliver a speech, allowing Bane to gather energy?

DarthCuddles
lol no not exactly what i. i was just trying to make a point that bane wasn't a novice in the ways of force and saber combat

Lightsnake
Of course not...just that saying how he beat Kas'im isn't really relevant to the fight with the factors unapplied.

DarthCuddles
well while kas'im was using his staff bane was winning and i wasn't trying to point out in number 4. that he beat kas'im just that he did destroy the temple and adding to your point he didn't even break through kas'im's force barrier which says alot for kas'im's ability in itself

Lightsnake
Bane knew everything Kas'im could do with the staff was the thing.

And I'm willing to bet with the Force, Dooku far exceeds Kas'im

DarthCuddles
but isn't bane a master at the curved blade as well???

DarthCuddles
handle not blade sorry

Lightsnake
He is. However, that's his big advantage...something Dooku will be very familiar with.

DarthCuddles
so then that just puts it down to bane's skill and dooku's do you think bane is a better swordsman than anakin because anakin could beat dooku with the same style that bane uses djem so

Lightsnake
Anakin's going all out there helped. Djem So alone is something Dooku can deal with very well

DarthCuddles
oh what do you mean all out exactly???

Darth Subjekt
He means that Anakin was in that dumbas "zone." But the novel still stated that Anakin was holding back and still giving Dooku a hell of a time. But Anakin is more of an exception than the rule.

DarthCuddles
so that he was just careless as to what he did he just went full offense

Darth Subjekt
No, he wasn't careless at all. He knew exactly what he had to do and simply had to "decide" to win. But he was devoting himself to maintaining a level head.

DarthCuddles
wow i totally dont get that i'm sorry but i'm probably not going to

Darth Subjekt
Get what?

DarthCuddles
the point of whtat anakin was doing in the fight

Darth Subjekt
The point was to not be taunted by Dooku to the point where he would be beaten. He remained calm and collected, and because of that, he absolutely pwned Dooku.

DarthCuddles
oh I C well bane was quite the level headed person as well

Faunus
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He didn't beat either of them in swordsmanship. He tricked Kas'im, who was his superior with a saber at the timeThat's not true at all. When using his single-blade and saberstaff, both of which Bane had completely familiarized himself with, Kas'im was getting his ass kicked. It wasn't even close. Kas'im only took the advantage when he split his weapon and fought with dual blades, a tactic which he'd earlier advised Bane against using. So yeah, Bane was decidedly superior to Kas'im as a duelist.

And in all honesty, Bane firmly defeats Dooku in a pure duel. Orbalisks + Djem So + Freakish Strength = Death.

Lightsnake
Kas'im kept the students from learning Jar'Kai as an excuse to have an edge over them. While Kas'im was yielding to Bane's superior Force power, Kas'im's best form ended in outmatching Bane with a saber. It even has Bane realizing Kas'im might be the finest duelist alive and his masteyr of the saber exceeds Bane.

Taven
To be honest, I think it's Bane's speed that gives him the real edge in saber combat (aside from the Orbalisks). I mean, he demonstrated a completely unprecedented adeptness with it with what, like a year's worth of training? By Ro2, with his vastly greater Force ability, and the substantial added benefits of the Orbalisk armour, I don't think there's anyone who can keep up with him.

Icy Ninja
Originally posted by Taven
To be honest, I think it's Bane's speed that gives him the real edge in saber combat (aside from the Orbalisks). I mean, he demonstrated a completely unprecedented adeptness with it with what, like a year's worth of training? By Ro2, with his vastly greater Force ability, and the substantial added benefits of the Orbalisk armour, I don't think there's anyone who can keep up with him.

Darth Sidous could considering numerous sources say he is the greatest sith lord by ROTS

Taven
Yeah, I'm not even going to respond to that.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Taven
To be honest, I think it's Bane's speed that gives him the real edge in saber combat (aside from the Orbalisks). I mean, he demonstrated a completely unprecedented adeptness with it with what, like a year's worth of training? By Ro2, with his vastly greater Force ability, and the substantial added benefits of the Orbalisk armour, I don't think there's anyone who can keep up with him.

Yes, we know what you think. Strangely, people have shown themselves just as fast or faster.

Notice whenever the third party views Bane fighting, he's not as fast as you claim he is?

Enyalus
Bane takes all three.

Dooku has a slim chance at sabers because I believe him to be the better pure duelist, but when you factor in the extremely limited target area and Bane's Form V style (which is Form II's kryponite), along with Bane's force-enhanced strength...yeah.

DARTH POWER
ok lets get one thing straight.. Makashi is not weak to Djem So. it was Dooku who was weak next to ROTS "in the zone" Anakin.

Makashi doesnt generate the kinetic energy to meet Djem So "Head On!!" but he doesnt have to meet it head on.. if you carry on reading the paragragh in ROTS novel where it says that, then you would read that Dooku was going to take advantage of Djem So's weakness (lack of mobility I think) to attack Anakin from a different position with a swift turn, instead of meeting him head on..

but the Kenobi was there as well to make things much more difficult for the Count.

Taven
Bane's astronomically more powerful, better physically conditioned, and possesses the added protection of the orbalisk armour. Dooku arguably possesses an advantage in technical ability, but aside from that, nothing. He gets tooled.

Vorpal Ruin
I can't seem to find a copy of Ro2 anywhere. Did you buy every copy, Taven?

Darth Subjekt
Perhaps beaten, but not tooled.

Master Crimzon
Yeah. I'd say Dooku dies in all three, but not before giving a good fight to Bane. It won't be a curbstomp.

Gideon
Count Dooku was once "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history" and "an even greater Lord of the Sith", the "most learned" student of the Jedi Temple, the greatest of the Lost Twenty, "the most agile and capable" of the Temple's swordmasters, et cetera.

Bane's skills aren't enough to make this a curbstomp at all. The orbalisks will make a considerable difference, but I wouldn't put it past Dooku, who is efficient and an alarmingly capable duelist, to exploit weaknesses in their gaps.

Enyalus
I'd still say Makashi is weak against Djem So, considering it isn't designed to combat heavier and direct blows of the later styles (given that Form II was around long before Form V).

Anyone else agree?

Gideon
Originally posted by Enyalus
I'd still say Makashi is weak against Djem So, considering it isn't designed to combat heavier and direct blows of the later styles (given that Form II was around long before Form V).

Anyone else agree?

No.

Makashi is the ultimate dueling form. On paper, you pit a Makashi duelist versus a Djem So duelist, the Makashi duelist will come out ahead.

Enyalus
Ultimate dueling form for saber vs. saber combat, invented back when the only duelists were using Form I...which is the first form every padawon is taught.

Wasn't ever designed to handle the style of Form VI or beyond.

Gideon
Originally posted by Enyalus
Ultimate dueling form for saber vs. saber combat, invented back when the only duelists were using Form I...which is the first form every padawon is taught.

Wasn't ever designed to handle the style of Form VI or beyond.

Makashi has been cited by numerous sources to be the ultimate dueling form. Your syllogism is ridiculous. Djem So is taught at the Temple. If it were, on paper, better than Makashi, then it would be called the ultimate dueling form.

It's not. Deal with it.

Enyalus
Not really. My syllogism makes perfect sense. What wouldn't make sense is if Makashi is actually better at defending against a style that didn't even exist when created.

Makashi: Djem So would be like foil fencing: kendo.

Sure, the foil is more elegant, but if you're playing to kill, without a points system, kendo would simply overpower any defenses the foil fencer has.

You may in fact be correct, that Makashi is superior in 1 vs. 1 dueling when compared against the Djem So style. But if that's the case, it shouldn't be. The logic there makes no sense.

Gideon
You're basing the outcome of one duel and expecting those of us to consider it the general rule? Your syllogism is ridiculous. The one wielding Makashi here was an eighty-three-year old aristocrat. The Djem So duelist? An ungodly man wielding prodigious physical strength and peerless reserves of Force energy.

Unless every Makashi duelist belongs in the nursing home and Djem So wielders will be Anakin-class padawans, your syllogism is RIDICULOUS.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Gideon
No.

Makashi is the ultimate dueling form. On paper, you pit a Makashi duelist versus a Djem So duelist, the Makashi duelist will come out ahead. not necessarily... natural talent and instinct do play roles... and besides if that was the case Dooku destroys Anakin,Obi,qui-gon... all at once

in a nutshell your argument is shallow... like 90's-current Teen movies and tv shows(0.5% exaggerated)

DarkSerpent
im qouting the first sentence which seems to sum up your opinion

Elite Hunter
The problem lies with who we see using the forms imo. The most noteworthy Makashi duelist is Count Dooku, he is obviously not physically strong and it past his prime. Mean while Djem So has people that are Bane with the orbalisks, and Anakin "son of the force"(not to mention approaching his physical peak) skywalker. IMO the "smarter" duelists would makashi but the roided guys use djem so.

The only noteworthy example(that i know of) of a Djem so duelist beating a makashi duelist is Anaki vs Dooku. Anakin has virtually unlimited potentia and is pretty young and Dooku is a candidate for Alzheimer's

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
not necessarily... natural talent and instinct do play roles... and besides if that was the case Dooku destroys Anakin,Obi,qui-gon... all at once


Dooku would beat Obiwan or Qui-gon. Anakin has the advantage of being born with more potential/raw power than anyone else. Anakin is not a good example given how he is an abnormality.

DarkSerpent
in other words
marines djem so
army makashi (or block with Ls and shoot with blaster at point blank ){unrelated but to my point...

Enyalus
I wasn't basing my argument on any duel. I was using a priori reasoning. But the ROTS novel does lend weight to what I said. Anakin's strikes were simply too powerful for Makashi to handle.

Does anyone know of any Form II users beating Form V users? (Or even Form V users beating Form II users?) Maybe we should exclude Dooku, since he is, afterall, one of the greatest Jedi/Sith ever. Kind of an exception to the rule, rather than the standard.

DarkSerpent
but almost all that is dealt with are exceptions so... confused sad no

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The problem lies with who we see using the forms imo. The most noteworthy Makashi duelist is Count Dooku, he is obviously not physically strong and it past his prime. Mean while Djem So has people that are Bane with the orbalisks, and Anakin "son of the force"(not to mention approaching his physical peak) skywalker. IMO the "smarter" duelists would makashi but the roided guys use djem so.

The only noteworthy example(that i know of) of a Djem so duelist beating a makashi duelist is Anaki vs Dooku. Anakin has virtually unlimited potentia and is pretty young and Dooku is a candidate for Alzheimer's
Dooku would beat Obiwan or Qui-gon. Anakin has the advantage of being born with more potential/raw power than anyone else. Anakin is not a good example given how he is an abnormality.

Gideon
Yes, because Makashi's reputation as the ultimate dueling form is depenedent totally on Dooku's stature...

Jesus Christ, get it through your head: you can't take Anakin and Dooku and say that, since Anakin won, his form is the shit. Especially when canon statements oppose it.

DarkSerpent
whoops

Elite Hunter
Bane=Orbalisks
Anakin=most raw power

All other djem so users don't have this advantage.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Bane=Orbalisks
Anakin=most raw power

All other djem so users don't have this advantage. Malak does as far as muscles go..
wait he is a djem so user right looks like his style is based on strength and size oh and i forgot that other name for djem so... tell me NOW

Faunus
Gideon has exactly 6000 posts. no expression

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Malak does as far as muscles go..
wait he is a djem so user right looks like his style is based on strength and size oh and i forgot that other name for djem so... tell me NOW

Malak doesn't have a confirmed form but in the game he uses more of one handed form which is similar to makashi but that's still gameplay.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Faunus
Gideon has exactly 6000 posts. no expression Happy Danceband Happy Danceband Happy Dance awesome... right err maybe i shouldn't spam/troll

Faunus
Obviously Makashi itself has no inherent weaknesses to other styles of combat, since it is the definitive blade-to-blade form, and it wasn't just "Dooku's Makashi << Anakin's Djem So," since Dooku is at the least proficient in all seven lightsaber forms - he teaches them to Grievous and the MagnaGuards. Anakin just beat him down. It's that simple. He physically overpowered him.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Faunus
He physically overpowered him. ...San Quentin love
seriously though anakin proved style And experience aren't paralell to skill he outmanuevered him...

Enyalus
You can't have a definitive blade-to-blade form when five other lightsaber forms weren't invented at the time...that's what I'm attempting to get across.

That's like, I don't know, taking a gatling gun, which was the supreme weapon in it's day, and pitting it against an M-4 assault rifle...

Why did Dooku choose Makashi when he had mastered all the styles? Personal preference. It suited his style of flair, arrogance and elegance. Easy enough to understand.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Enyalus
You can't have a definitive blade-to-blade form when five other lightsaber forms weren't invented at the time...that's what I'm attempting to get across.

That's like, I don't know, taking a gatling gun, which was the supreme weapon in it's day, and pitting it against an M-4 assault rifle...

Why did Dooku choose Makashi when he had mastered all the styles? Personal preference. It suited his style of flair, arrogance and elegance. Easy enough to understand. and he was past his youth makashi is not as physically demanding, help from the forcenot withstanding, its more accurate and precise and calculated

Faunus
Well, Dooku does note in the novel that " form" doesn't generate the necessary kinetic energy to combat Djem So, so I can't write it off. Whatever.

Anyway, this doesn't mean that any Form V swordsman would defeat any Form II practitioner. That's not even likely.

DarkSerpent
forms are minute talent and ability are what really matters ...

Darth Subjekt

DarkSerpent

Jbill311
Thank you for adding so much to the discussion.

It seems like this duel, like Anakin / Obi Wan comes down to skill vs. youthful power/exuberance/strength.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Faunus
Anyway, this doesn't mean that any Form V swordsman would defeat any Form II practitioner. That's not even likely.

I would never argue that position, or even think it. I would say that if two lightsaber duelists with equal skill and force ability, one using Form II and the other Form V, crossed sabers - the Form V practitioner would win more times than not. Of course, no one can prove or disprove that, and it's completely based on speculation...ah well.

DarkSerpent
also current emotional state is important, ie anakin LOST to obigyn kenobi

Gideon
NO.

****, do you not get it? Makashi is the ultimate dueling form. Period. It's not up for a debate. If you pit two equal combatants against one another, one wielding Djem So and the other Makashi, the one with Makashi would win unless the other guy beat him by some fluke.

REPEAT: MAKASHI IS THE ULTIMATE DUELING FORM. UNLESS THERE IS A GREAT DISPARITY BETWEEN COMBATANTS, IT IS BETTER THAN ALL OTHER FORMS. ACCEPT IT AND MOVE THE **** ON.

Darth Subjekt
I don't think Anakin's win was a fluke. But other than that, I agree. Unless of course they just started using Makashi. Or if you're fighting Yoda... or your opponent is using Vaapad and you're evil. Really that's too definitive a statement. On a stand alone basis, yes, it is the pinnacle of all dueling forms, but obviously that doesn't mean that they always win.


EDIT: honestly, I just notice you put "equally" in your post and I'm too lazy to just change my post above. Nevermind. You're spot on then. smile thumb up

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Gideon
NO.

****, do you not get it? Makashi is the ultimate dueling form. Period. It's not up for a debate. If you pit two equal combatants against one another, one wielding Djem So and the other Makashi, the one with Makashi would win unless the other guy beat him by some fluke.

REPEAT: MAKASHI IS THE ULTIMATE DUELING FORM. UNLESS THERE IS A GREAT DISPARITY BETWEEN COMBATANTS, IT IS BETTER THAN ALL OTHER FORMS. ACCEPT IT AND MOVE THE **** ON. really... have taken into consideration Old Sith Wars era Juyo, Mace's Vaapad, or instinct/skill Luke knew almost no forms had to discover them and well he turned out ok...

Darth Subjekt
Hence, "equal combatants." I missed it too at first.

Gideon
Originally posted by DarkSerpent
really... have taken into consideration Old Sith Wars era Juyo, Mace's Vaapad, or instinct/skill Luke knew almost no forms had to discover them and well he turned out ok...

You didn't read what I typed, did you? I said that Makashi would dominate all other lightsaber forms if you take two equal combatants and pit them against one another; Mace Windu's Vaapad was described as "the deadliest" lightsaber form due to its metaphysical nature against dark siders and how close it brings its user to the dark side. Luke Skywalker's technical ability as a swordsman isn't necessarily the greatest or even top tier, but due to his considerable strength in the Force, he is a highly dangerous combatant.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Don't.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Gideon
You didn't read what I typed, did you? I said that Makashi would dominate all other lightsaber forms if you take two equal combatants and pit them against one another; Mace Windu's Vaapad was described as "the deadliest" lightsaber form due to its metaphysical nature against dark siders and how close it brings its user to the dark side. Luke Skywalker's technical ability as a swordsman isn't necessarily the greatest or even top tier, but due to his considerable strength in the Force, he is a highly dangerous combatant.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Don't. Luke Skywalker's technical ability as a swordsman isn't necessarily the greatest or even top tier, but due to his considerable strength in the Force, he is a highly dangerous combatant...

oh and btw apples are TOTALLY better than oranges
shifty

Gideon
Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Luke Skywalker's technical ability as a swordsman isn't necessarily the greatest or even top tier, but due to his considerable strength in the Force, he is a highly dangerous combatant...

oh and btw apples are TOTALLY better than oranges
shifty

There is no actual response here. You merely took a statement from my argument and pasted it in front of an alarmingly dull joke.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Gideon
There is no actual response here. You merely took a statement from my argument and pasted it in front of an alarmingly dull joke. no actually you wrote my answer for me



saber form isn't all there is heck for that matter it is not even whats most important


thats the point ive been trying to make...

Gideon
Originally posted by DarkSerpent
no actually you wrote my answer for me



saber form isn't all there is heck for that matter it is not even whats most important


thats the point ive been trying to make...

It's irrelevant. I was making a separate point altogether. If Count Dooku's powers were equal to Skywalker, he would tool him in a lightsaber match. Why? His form is better. If you make two equal combatants with Makashi and Djem So fight, the Makashi wielder would come out ahead.

Darth Subjekt
What was the old quote that Rampant Ox used to live by? Something like, "The ultimate refinement..." and that Dooku mastered it to the highest possible degree.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Gideon
It's irrelevant. I was making a separate point altogether. If Count Dooku's powers were equal to Skywalker, he would tool him in a lightsaber match. Why? His form is better. If you make two equal combatants with Makashi and Djem So fight, the Makashi wielder would come out ahead. however Dooku was exceptional in makashi... what i think you mean is if two equally powered jedi who had advanced their respective forms to the sam degree then no shit your right however someone who has a neo-Knight's lvl makashi would have a difficult time against someone who completely mastered and (partially customized to suit needs) Ataru if not outright defeated

Faunus
Clearly...

Gideon
Originally posted by Faunus
Clearly...

Where have I gone wrong? Did I not type "equal combatants" enough? Did I somehow not emphasize that?

Enyalus
I sincerely apologize for ever bringing up the issue. *sigh*

Faunus
Originally posted by Gideon
Where have I gone wrong? Did I not type "equal combatants" enough? Did I somehow not emphasize that?I mean, I thought I saw it in every relevant post, but I may have still been dazzled by the shitfest that is this thread.

@Enyalus: Yuh-huh. Thanks. You're not too late at all. Nope, my senses can still be saved. I haven't lost all hope for humanity.

Darth Exodus
Bane goes Anakin on his ass. Same style, better user.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Bane goes Anakin on his ass. Same style, better user.

The novelization made it spectacularly clear: it wasn't just Skywalker's "prodigious strength" that overwhelmed Dooku; he was turned into an engine of destruction by his peerless Force reserves. He simply doesn't tire and only gets stronger. Darth Bane doesn't even have Palpatine's Force reserves, much less someone as potent as Anakin.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Gideon
The novelization made it spectacularly clear: it wasn't just Skywalker's "prodigious strength" that overwhelmed Dooku; he was turned into an engine of destruction by his peerless Force reserves. He simply doesn't tire and only gets stronger. Darth Bane doesn't even have Palpatine's Force reserves, much less someone as potent as Anakin.

Perhaps not natural force reserves, but the orbalisks continuously fuel his rage, dark side affinity, and adrenaline. He wouldn't tire during the fight, either. I'd also think it'd be crazy to say that Bane isn't (at the very least) Anakin's equal in strength. He's got, what, 6'' of height on him and was described as 'a mountain of muscle.'

Even so, the strength behind the attack tore Farfalla's golden blade from his grip, sending his lightsaber skittering across the floor. Unarmed and helpless before his enemy, he was saved by Raskta.

Farfalla also might be using Makashi, because it mentions numerous times his elegant 'saber style,' 'defensive stance' and whatnot. Another quote from RoT:

He's too strong, Farfalla realized, even as he ran to help her. Both physically and in the power of the dark side. It's like trying to fight a force of nature.

So...that's what Dooku would be up against. I still don't see how this fight ends up any different than his duel with Anakin.

Gideon
Dooku was astonished by Anakin Skywalker's physical strength, even though the Count has crossed blades with the likes of Mace Windu (who is capable of fighting Kar Vastor and delivering six punches before Vastor could blink and obliterated an army of battle droids with his bare hands) and General Grievous. Skywalker's level of raw power is such that his physical attributes are clearly far beyond what his physical form can account for. When comparing their physique? You might have a point. But there is no definitive proof that, in the end, Bane is physically stronger than Skywalker.

Enyalus
Physically stronger without force-enhancements? Yeah, I'd imagine Bane > Anakin. Anakin was an athletically built young man. Bane was a fully developed 'mountain of muscle.'

Now, physically stronger with force enhancements? I never implied that. I think they'd be about even then.

Also, did you just compare Bane's physical strength to Mace?? confused

Gideon
Sir, you seem to habitually confuse the issue. I will reiterate a second and final time to try to make the point clearer.

When one observes the physique of Anakin Skywalker, one does not see a "mountain of muscle" as Darth Bane was described as, but simply wiry Jedi who happens to be very cut and very fit. By physique alone, he's hardly a world-class bodybuilder or whatnot. Still, Count Dooku was in veritable awe of Anakin Skywalker's "sheer physical strength." This reaction is coming from a man who crossed blades with Mace Windu and General Grievous, who are both completely overwhelming opponents and demonstrate physical strength in excess of Darth Bane.

" no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength -- not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical strength was astonishing--"

-- Revenge of the Sith, page 71.

As you can see, Count Dooku makes a point of mentioning both Skywalker's reserves of Force energy and his physical strength. Clearly, both are remarkable.

As far as a comparison between Mace and Bane, Mace was able to manhandle an army of super battle droids with his bare hands and fight on even footing with Kar Vastor in a scuffle. He's a physical beast.

EDIT: The point being? Skywalker's reserves of Force energies outclass Bane's. But you can't even state that Bane is definitely stronger than Skywalker on an even physical level.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Gideon
Mace was able to manhandle an army of super battle droids with his bare hands Geonosis anyone?

Tangible God
Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Geonosis anyone? The Hell are you talking about?

Blax_Hydralisk
It's the usual spiel.

"Licks z0mg if he could due dat den y did he nvr due dat at Geonoeziz? o"0 0_o @_@ @_@ 1!!!11!!!"

etc.

Darth Subjekt
Got that down pretty good. I take it you've witnessed his rants quite a bit?

Tangible God
I actually got what he was saying, but my exasperation got the better of me.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Enyalus
I wasn't basing my argument on any duel. I was using a priori reasoning. But the ROTS novel does lend weight to what I said. Anakin's strikes were simply too powerful for Makashi to handle.


And your reasoning pretty much sucks.

a) You assume that, because Djem So was probably designed after Makashi, it has to be the better form. What you don't understand is, that those forms have specific philosophies and ideas behind them. Djem So was invented during a time when Jedi where mostly confronted with threats in the form of blaster rifles. Because of that, Djem So is pretty much designed to redirect blaster bolts (which Anakin even does with blaster fire coming in from behind) and with the wide and powerful swings you could probably kill multiple opponents with one swing, considering the fact that thugs generally don't have any defence against lightsabers. Good idea.

Yet Makashi is designed for lightsaber VS lightsaber combat only. It utilizes leverage, positioning and by far more technique than Djem So, which more often than not looks like Baseball Bat lightsaber action. Not to mention that, fighting with one hand, the Jedi / Sith utilizing the form can simultaneously use force attacks, which is a trademark of Dooku - and a great advantage in combat. And you see Dooku outduelling multiple opponents throughout the entire series.

b) You assume that because of the duel between Anakin and Dooku, you can draw any conclusions to the lightsaber forms. Which is total bullshit. Anakin, if I may remind you, doesn't defeat Dooku with his saber alone. He disables Dookus weaponhand by grapping it and then cuts the Counts hands off. Do you recognize that as superior swordsmanship? Hardly. Anakin was faster and stronger - and both is a result of his physical / force abilities and not his saber style.

c) Of course Dooku might have problems with Anakin's swings. Which again comes from Anakin's strength. Had Anakin used any other form, with the exception of Soresu (which is totaly defensive) the result would have been the same.

This aside from the fact that I believe what's written down in the novel is total bullshit. A fencer like Dooku would never attempt to parry attacks like a normal swordfighter would. Instead he would redirect the momentum of the incoming strikes - which is, suprise, what he does in the movie, generally pushing Anakin's saber sidewards, altering the direction of Anakin's attacks. Or were did you see him using real "parries"?

And still Anakin had the advantage of a cybernetic arm (apparently far stronger than a regular one, considering he was able to hold his own weight together with that of Obi-Wan and Sidious with just one hand) and a force potential which exceeded that of Dooku, aiding his cybernetic/natural physical strength. So to draw any conclusions from that fight to a hypothetic match between Bane and Dooku, you would first have too proof that Bane can match Anakin's strength (notice once more: cyborg arm) and his force potential.

d) Djem so is too powerful for Makashi to handle? Uh-hu...Let's have a look at the RotS novel...

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power
to meet Djem So head-to-head."

Yes. He can't generate enough power to parry the swings directly. Yet notice what happens three sentences after that...

"He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep - the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility - that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance "

Ups. Despite being unable to parry the swings of a powerful Djem So user directly, he still has counter-measures when being confronted with an exceptional Djem So user like Anakin, rather easily throwing his opponent off balance. In this situation, according to the novel, he uses that advantage for generating distance between him and Anakin (seeing as he was still fighting Kenobi at the same time), but normally he would have used it to counter-attack.



What the hell?

Dooku, throughout the saga, has defeated: Obi-Wan Kenobi (form III/IV), Anakin Skywalker (AotC - and Anakin was already using Djem So there), Tholme, Sora Bulq (Vaapad user), Ventress (Jar'kai user), Qui-Gon Djin (form IV user) and, probably most noteable, Grievous, who was capable of utilizing all forms.

And if you want to thrust the RotS novel, he had intimate knowledge about all styles and their corresponding weaknesses - and his Makashi allowing him to capitalize on all of that weaknesses. There is a reason why Yoda believes that only Mace Windu is equal to the Count in sheer lightsaber ability on equal ground. And that's the same reason why Dooku, Mace and Yoda are pretty much above the entire rest of the Jedi Order in lightsaber ability. And I'm pretty sure that this "rest" includes some Djem So users as well, unlike you want to tell me that Aayla Secura or Luminara are able to rival Dooku's lightsaber mastery...

Lord Knightfa11
Dooku's saberstyle is actually more akin to real sword fighting, fyi. the flashy spinny crazy stuff is never in sword fighting. If you watch a fencing match you will see what I mean. Also, it was foolish in the middle ages to let your sword take the full impact of a blow instead of glancing it to the side, because the swords were known to break, and then you are screwed.

Enyalus
Untrue. Know why? "Form V's Djem So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling." So says Cin Drallig. It is Form V's initial form, Shien, that's devoted primarily to blasters and defense.



So wait, you want to disregard Anakin using a melee move during the duel to cut Dooku's hands off in point b), yet, in order to keep his distance from Anakin, you cite where Dooku himself uses a melee move (reverse ankle sweep).



That's nice and all, but how does that affect what I said at all about a Form II user beating a Form V user, or vice versa? Dooku beat a young and brash Anakin who hadn't mastered Djem So yet. Anakin has beaten Dooku. And Bane's beaten Farfalla. Those are the only real instances we know of a Form II user beating a Form V user, and the reverse.

Again, Dooku was one of the best duelists ever. Just because he can beat a normally skilled Djem So user doesn't mean Form II > Form V. And just because he knew all lightsaber forms but chose to use Form II doesn't make that the best. It just suited his style. Smooth and elegant. If that was the case, why didn't other proficient duelists decide to use the same form?

Also, your point c) is completely your opinion and speculative.

That's all.

Lord Knightfa11
hmm i see areas where you are both correct.

However your 5>2 and 2>5 examples are incredibly screwed.

Farfalla is pretty much.. worthless? and so is aotc anakin. so ya. Bane and dooku are in a league above both of those opponents.

In truth, it wasn't anakin's strenght or his form that beat dooku, it was his force reserves, as someone previously stated.

Gideon
I'm curious how we split hairs for Anakin's defeat of Count Dooku as a brutish man physically overpowering a feeble octogenarian and yet Mace Windu's defeat of Palpatine -- delivered with a kick to the head -- is automatic signs of Windu's superiority in swordsmanship. I would urge you, Nai, in advance, to not initiate flaming. Otherwise it could end up like our last debacle.


EDIT: For the record, Skywalker defeats Dooku in battle in the Clone Wars movie.

Enyalus
I thought everyone was pretty much of the accord that Mace's skills with a saber > Palpatine, but Palpatine's speed > Mace's enough to make it irrelevant, and that the only reason Mace even had a slight chance at winning his duel with Palpatine was because of Vaapad...?

lol

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Enyalus
I thought everyone was pretty much of the accord that Mace's skills with a saber > Palpatine, but Palpatine's speed > Mace's enough to make it irrelevant, and that the only reason Mace even had a slight chance at winning his duel with Palpatine was because of Vaapad...?

lol

Palpatine is- in his natural form- a superior combatant to Mace in his natural form. He's faster, and also has the technical skill to back it up (a 'master of every weapon and every form', according to Nick Gillard). Mace, however, is also a fast combatant and could last long enough in order to 'immerse himself' in Vaapad, giving him a stalemate in speed and power; his Shatterpoint allowed him to find an opening and beat Sidious.

Faunus
Originally posted by Gideon
EDIT: For the record, Skywalker defeats Dooku in battle in the Clone Wars movie.Unless we watched different versions, no he didn't. He knocks him over, steals his bike thing, and runs off to save the girl. That's like saying Dooku defeated Yoda in AotC, or Mace in Obsession.

Actually, seeing Count Dooku literally sitting on his ass in the sand was the most ignominious sight I've ever seen in SW. Hilarious in a demeaning, "Why, Lee, WHY?!" kinda way, but still pathetic.

Gideon
Originally posted by Faunus
Unless we watched different versions, no he didn't. He knocks him over, steals his bike thing, and runs off to save the girl. That's like saying Dooku defeated Yoda in AotC, or Mace in Obsession.

We watched the same one. He doesn't push Dooku down and pee on him. They're fighting and he overcomes him. Simple as that.

Faunus
Originally posted by Gideon
He doesn't push Dooku down and pee on him.No need to keep bringing up what Enyalus did to you.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Faunus
No need to keep bringing up what Enyalus did to you.

How did...Gideon, why did you tell him!?

Faunus
I'm your master (and source of your avatarness), foolish one.

Gideon
I AM THE MASTER NOW!

Faunus
No, bitchwad, NO. Sit. Siiiiiit. Good boy.

You can never be the master, as Enyalus is your master and I am his. Plus, your new avy/sig isn't your old, defining avy/no-sig.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Enyalus
Untrue. Know why? "Form V's Djem So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling." So says Cin Drallig. It is Form V's initial form, Shien, that's devoted primarily to blasters and defense.


Which doesn't matter, as the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat, Makashi, still remains what it is: the ultimate refinement of the art. Period.



Wow. You are, of course, realizing, that you don't get around the fact, that Anakin didn't defeat Dooku with his superior lightsaber ability. That being said, you can throw irrelevant missdirections as here as long as you want. Doesn't change a thing.



Wow. So now you have established that a form II user can beat a form V user - and vice versa. Great. What's the point again? Oh wait.



You are aware of the fact that the same is true the other way around. Just because Anakin can defeat Dooku, it doesn't matter that Form II > Form V. Thanks for repeating my argument.



Ah stop it. What "proficient duellist" are you talking about now, kiddo? All Jedi and Sith are chosing the style that suits them best - their personalities, style and physical abilities. Obviously Anakin doesn't have the temper to use Makashi, while Kenobi thought that Soresu might be the best choice for a Jedi, as a "classical" style. Yet the only two other beings somewhere close to / above Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability are Mace and Yoda. And both of them are using saber forms which compensate certain disadvantages.

Do you have any other "proficient duelist" around who's styles are confirmed? And hell...where did anybody claim that because Dooku knew all forms and did chose Makashi, this must be the best? Did Mr. Strawman visit the thread when I was away?



Cool. So the RotS novel and the movie are just displaying my opinion? That's great.

@Gideon:


And who exactly claimed that Mace defeat of Sidious as it happened is a sign of his superior swordsmanship? Was it Mr. Strawman again who walked in and did the job? Yes?



Great. I would urge you, Gideon, to stop throwing strawmans at me.

And our last "debacle"? You mean the one where you did enter the thread with a ridiculous statement, then dodged the point multiple times after I called you out on it, just to ignore the original topic of the thread completely after that, attempting to strawman me to death while making a complete ass out of yourself ?

Yeah. I'm really scared something like that could happen again. I can already feel a cold shiver running down my spine. Brrr...*shudders with fear* roll eyes (sarcastic)

Gideon
That was too predictable.



I suppose so. Though, admittedly, I wasn't aware that 'Mr. Strawman' is one of your new aliases. Shouldn't be surprised, though. It's very fitting. Like House-lite. Honestly, haven't you learned your lesson? The last time you denied saying something, I caught you in a lie. wink



Nai, would you like me to go out and find a statement of you saying that Windu is a superior swordsman than Sidious?



If I recall correctly, I caught you in an embarrassing lie and, for some reason, you haven't responded. Don't worry. I'm sure it's because you've forgotten. I'll bump the thread. wink



It wasn't intended to strike fear, though your fear of me is well documented, my friend. It was merely to spare the unnecessary flame war. But you don your Hugh Laurie T-shirt and hobble with your fake limp over to your computer and feel obligated to bring it on again. Don't worry. I'll play along.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Gideon
I suppose so. Though, admittedly, I wasn't aware that 'Mr. Strawman' is one of your new aliases. Shouldn't be surprised, though. It's very fitting. Like House-lite. Honestly, haven't you learned your lesson? The last time you denied saying something, I caught you in a lie. wink


Urm. No, vermin. The last time you "caught me in a lie" it went like that:

1) You claiming, I said Dooku is more powerful and smarter than Sidious.
2) Me denying that.
3) You digging out a statement of myself, that says Dooku would defeat Sidious in an all out contest using his saber
4) Me pointing that out.
5) You suddenly getting rilled up on a completely different topic. Now I should have "lied" because of saying that I, back then, should have claimed that Dooku "could" defeat Sidious when I was - also notably - just recapping the thread issue. Which, again, had nothing to do with your original claim.



No, Gideon. I would like you to go out and find a statement of me saying that Windu is superior swordsman in comparison to Sidious, based on the fact, that he kicked the lightsaber out of the Sith Lords hand. Because that is what you claimed I should have stated.



Oh nice. Reply incoming...



Cute. Based on the fact that you found my reaction "too predictable", I have to suggest that you did, indeed, predict it, which means that you knew, before posting, that I will react like I did. Which, of course, means that you didn't want to "spare the unnecessary flame war" but instead looking forward to it and provoking it, because otherwise - wise man that you are - you wouldn't have posted. Gotcha, kid.

Gideon
Excellent.

Edit: For the record, I didn't claim that you said that Windu is a superior swordsman because he defeated Sidious via a kick to the head. I am questioning your rationale because "LOLZ ANAKIN IS WEAKER BECUZ HE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED DOOKU! HE IS NOT TEH BETTER SWORDSMAN!" and yet you're happy to believe that Windu > Sidious even though he didn't disarm our outmatch the Dark Lord with a lightsaber but via a physical assault as well. Explain the difference or concede the point.

Darth Sexy
I think you two should just bang each other and get it over with. The sexual tension is absurd.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I think you two should just bang each other and get it over with. The sexual tension is absurd.

I seriously have no problem with Nai. Just curious why he enjoys starting flame wars, lol. I do somewhat enjoy it, though. The verbal sparring. But unlike Faunus and I, Nai seems reluctant to go anywhere but that particular place.

Faunus
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I think you two should just bang each other and get it over with. The sexual tension is absurd. LMAO!

Literally. I think that's the funniest thing I've ever seen from you.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Gideon
Excellent.

Edit: For the record, I didn't claim that you said that Windu is a superior swordsman because he defeated Sidious via a kick to the head. I am questioning your rationale because "LOLZ ANAKIN IS WEAKER BECUZ HE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED DOOKU! HE IS NOT TEH BETTER SWORDSMAN!" and yet you're happy to believe that Windu > Sidious even though he didn't disarm our outmatch the Dark Lord with a lightsaber but via a physical assault as well. Explain the difference or concede the point.

Wrong analogy, Gideon.
I refused the statement that Anakin is the superior swordsman in comparison to Dooku, which was based on the fact that he defeated him in combat - but not with his saber ability.

You're attempting a strawman again. Now you can also fetch me a quote of myself stating that Anakin must be weaker than Dooku because he - physically - overpowered them...Have fun with the search.

As for Windu: My judgement that he is the superior swordsman in comparison to Sidious isn't based on the fact that he defeated the Sith Lord. Nope. That idea is spawning from the fact that Mace started developing his own unique style apparently at the age of 13, after mastering multiple forms before that, which he had to do in order to accomplish the job. That aside from designing a saber style, that Yoda descriped as the "deadliest" fighting technique available for lightsaber combatants. One could also site the fact that Yoda thought only Mace Windu is equal to Dooku in lightsaber ability on equal ground - which is notable as the Count is a complete master of the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat - and also notable because Yoda is apparently excluding himself in that statement, possible hinting that his own sheer bladework (without the force aided manouvering that makes him so powerful in lightsaber combat) is not on par with that of Windu or Dooku. And of course we have the fact, that Sidious, unlike Windu, who was going through three years of frontline experience, didn't touch a lightsaber for almost a decade.

And by the way, Gideon: What point is it I should concede? The one you've strawmanned into my statements?



The answer lies within your statement, young padawan. I enjoy the verbal sparring and since you also seem to enjoy it too, I simply take the opportunity to flame around a bit with somebody that doesn't take it serious and - at least I hope so - knows that I'm just having a little bit of fun here. And no - I'm not reluctant to go anywhere but that particular place. The point is that we've already been to pretty much all other places together and I don't see any reason to visit them again and again.

Gideon
Darth Sidious indoctrinated Darth Maul in Juyo, a lightsaber form that requires its masters to be "high end masters of multiple forms" -- something directly attributed to Mace Windu. The only thing that you have stated that is factually in Windu's favor is that he has had more experience with a lightsaber. Experience isn't the end all.



You're quite a convincing sadist, Nai. But if you truly have no problem with it, then I don't intend to go there anymore unless we're really desperate for some verbal sparring. I'm not. I do it far too much as it is and it's becoming second nature.

EmperorSidious2
Dooku all three with trouble in sabres

NTJack0
Nice necro.

Stigma
Wow people back then thought it's a good fight lol.

Dooku wins easily.

The Ellimist
isn't Bane better at swinging his swords left and down?

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