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The Battle of the Century takes place in Balamb Garden's training room.

Team SOLDIER:

1. Cloud Strife
2. Sephiroth
3. Zack Fair
4. Angeal
5. Genesis

VS

Team Ansatsuken

1. Ryu
2. Gouki
3. Ken
4. Gouken
5. Gen

Eh, much as I hate it, Sephiroth is too much.
Akuma could defeat any of the others on his own though.

Oh and Ken...He's American. He can't lose.

Sephiroth can most likely solo team 2

I can see even Chaos Vincent, or Omega Weapon solo'ing team 2.

what a thread...

team 1 wins.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Sephiroth can most likely solo team 2

I can see even Chaos Vincent, or Omega Weapon solo'ing team 2. Well you're clearly wrong.

Gouki with one punch can kill anyone on team 1.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Well you're clearly wrong.

Gouki with one punch can kill anyone on team 1.

Do you even know how powerful Chaos Vincent or Omega WEAPON are? What makes you think Gouki can kill Sephiroth with 1 punch? Even Sephiroths weak remnants took huge TNT explosions to the face and survived.. has Gouki even fought anyone at Sephiroths speed? Or Chaos Vincent? Or Omega Weiss?

Seriously Sephiroth would 1 hit kill Gouki, speedblitz him, TK him, kill him with the negative lifestream, whichever, and the rest would be childs play as well.

pure spite. team soldier for the win.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Do you even know how powerful Chaos Vincent or Omega WEAPON are? What makes you think Gouki can kill Sephiroth with 1 punch? Even Sephiroths weak remnants took huge TNT explosions to the face and survived.. has Gouki even fought anyone at Sephiroths speed? Or Chaos Vincent? Or Omega Weiss?

Seriously Sephiroth would 1 hit kill Gouki, speedblitz him, TK him, kill him with the negative lifestream, whichever, and the rest would be childs play as well. Because Gouki can annihilate an island with a single punch and can take water pressure that is stronger than bullets. Gouki by feats can travel faster than Sephiroth, 1,000 meters in a few seconds ftw.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Because Gouki can annihilate an island with a single punch and can take water pressure that is stronger than bullets. Gouki by feats can travel faster than Sephiroth, 1,000 meters in a few seconds ftw.

Show me Gouki moving a kilometer in a few seconds, Sephiroth can do it in less then a second.

Sephiroth stopped a destructive energy wave capable of destroying everything on the planet with his mind, an island sinking punch won't be much of a threat, if he can't get near him, or even if he does let him get near him for childsplay he won't beable to catch him with Sephiroths movement speed

Gouki won't be surviving a masamune through the head, or drowned in the lifestream.

Originally posted by Terryc250
.

Sephiroth stopped a destructive energy wave capable of destroying everything on the planet with his mind

everything on the planet, once it hits its destination......

aslo show me Sephiroths movement speed

Originally posted by Burning thought
everything on the planet, once it hits its destination......
Huh? Holy isnt a bomb that needs to hit the ground before it ignites, it ignites once its summoned(what aeris did before she died)



while hes toying with cloud, at 2:00 after knocking Cloud into the distant building, he warps to the entrance of it in about a single frame, then he slows down.
1iUkDMgIp2Y


http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9789/seph1gw2.jpg


http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9171/seph2tb0.jpg

sephiroth alone is too much for team 2. even there are strong people just like cloud, etc. no hope for team 2. only gouki would putting up a good fight but in the end he'll lost too.

Seph isn't too much for team 2. Akuma alone can take Seph, and I don't think Seph is capable of taking one hit from Akuma, even though it's going to be difficult for Akuma fighting someone as skilled as Seph at close range with that long sword. I also think team two has the advantage, since they have long range energy attacks. This battle can go either way though, but I give the edge to team 2.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Do you even know how powerful Chaos Vincent or Omega WEAPON are? What makes you think Gouki can kill Sephiroth with 1 punch? Even Sephiroths weak remnants took huge TNT explosions to the face and survived.. has Gouki even fought anyone at Sephiroths speed? Or Chaos Vincent? Or Omega Weiss?

Seriously Sephiroth would 1 hit kill Gouki, speedblitz him, TK him, kill him with the negative lifestream, whichever, and the rest would be childs play as well.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
pure spite. team soldier for the win.

This is a rape stomp.

Originally posted by dvampire
Seph isn't too much for team 2. Akuma alone can take Seph, and I don't think Seph is capable of taking one hit from Akuma, even though it's going to be difficult for Akuma fighting someone as skilled as Seph at close range with that long sword. I also think team two has the advantage, since they have long range energy attacks. This battle can go either way though, but I give the edge to team 2.

Thats a joke, Akuma taking Sephiroth? Sephiroth would solo the entire team, what are you basing your "Seph isn't capable of taking one hit from Akuma" on? You're basing that on absolutely nothing, Sephiroth would slay the entire team 2 simultaneously.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Thats a joke, Akuma taking Sephiroth? Sephiroth would solo the entire team, what are you basing your "Seph isn't capable of taking one hit from Akuma" on? You're basing that on absolutely nothing, Sephiroth would slay the entire team 2 simultaneously.

Akuma sinks Islands, destroys ships with one blow, and destroy moutains. He'll kill Seph if he hits him. Ryu isn't a slouch when it comes to strength either, he was capable of lifting a 10 ton bolder over his head with Oro (while he was lift a rock aswell) on top of it. Seph will have his hands full with just one of them.

Originally posted by dvampire
Akuma sinks Islands, destroys ships with one blow, and destroy moutains. He'll kill Seph if he hits him. Ryu isn't a slouch when it comes to strength either, he was capable of lifting a 10 ton bolder over his head with Oro (while he was lift a rock aswell) on top of it. Seph will have his hands full with just one of them.

when did it was stated as 10 ton boulder?

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
when did it was stated as 10 ton boulder?

I'm just making an estimation of the size, it looks to weigh that much. I could be wrong though. Even so, the feat still put him as being physically stronger.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Show me Gouki moving a kilometer in a few seconds, Sephiroth can do it in less then a second.

Sephiroth stopped a destructive energy wave capable of destroying everything on the planet with his mind, an island sinking punch won't be much of a threat, if he can't get near him, or even if he does let him get near him for childsplay he won't beable to catch him with Sephiroths movement speed

Gouki won't be surviving a masamune through the head, or drowned in the lifestream. 1. He did it in one leap while destroying a sunken ship underwater. Sephiroth can move a kilometer in less than a second? Lol, prove it.

2. With willpower. Not physically. Punch won't be much of a threat? Other than it will one shot Sephiroth if it lands? Gouki has the greater movement speed by feats.

3. Gouki can dodge it. Sephiroth at best has bullet reflexes, which even Ryu can dodge easily.

Drowned in Lifestream? Show me him doing that to ANYONE.

You know, it is funny how everyone laughed at people who said Gouki can break Sephiroth's sword, when by feats he could.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. He did it in one leap while destroying a sunken ship underwater. Sephiroth can move a kilometer in less than a second? Lol, prove it.


He's going to pull up the bogus pictres again. The distance is not one mile though, not even close.

let's just say "it's heavy"



even gouki never move a kilometer in a less of second.

Neither has Sepihroth, so we're square.

Besides moving speed does not = reaction speed, so his moving a kilometer in less then a second, even if he was capable, is pointless in a fight.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Neither has Sepihroth, so we're square.

Besides moving speed does not = reaction speed, so his moving a kilometer in less then a second, even if he was capable, is pointless in a fight.

never said sephiroth can move a kilometer in less than a second too. I think that was too exaggerated. but, he's fast.

I made the fight thinking Team Soldier had an edge, but Sephiroth soloing the entire SF team?

Come on.

hQ5B-brfN8Q

The shockwaves from Seph's sword kills most of them....look what it did to the BMFCannon.

Seph can fly too so he won't be being hit by any of the attacks that can hurt him.

Man CC had a horrible dub, hence why I used the Jap vid. I haven't liked a single English VA for any of FFVII's Compilation.

The Voice Acting was not bad at all IMO. It was at least 3 times better than FFX's.

now that's going too far.
Auron's Voice alone solos CC's whole VA cast.

suuure.

You doubt the Auron?

the spite is obvious here.

Is there any proof that their simulation has exactley the same physics as the real canon, for example the Matrix you can smash buildigns with your fist, the reality and rules are diffrent.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Is there any proof that their simulation has exactley the same physics as the real canon, for example the Matrix you can smash buildigns with your fist, the reality and rules are diffrent.

whether it's a shockwave or not, a reality or not, sephiroth can cut any building just like in AC.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
hQ5B-brfN8Q

The shockwaves from Seph's sword kills most of them....look what it did to the BMFCannon.

Seph can fly too so he won't be being hit by any of the attacks that can hurt him.

Man CC had a horrible dub, hence why I used the Jap vid. I haven't liked a single English VA for any of FFVII's Compilation.

You act like he's fighting some normal street thugs. In that case one Hadoken blast or shoryuken will off him. And Seph can't fly, he seems to glide through the air instead.

Tidus"S voice ruins FFX

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
whether it's a shockwave or not, a reality or not, sephiroth can cut any building just like in AC.

It does matter because that canon cannot be used as a feat if you cant prove its reality physics when its a simulation

Let's just say Sephiroth can cut the canon.

Gouki destroyed an ISLAND, with a punch. He has split mountains, and kicked sunken ships in half.

In terms of the amount of force that can be exerted in a single attack, Gouki has Sephiroth beat by a few megatonnes.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It does matter because that canon cannot be used as a feat if you cant prove its reality physics when its a simulation

that's not a problem. in FF : AC, we saw with our own eyes sephiroth cut the building. and would you explain why a simulation doesn't have the same physics? in that simulation, we saw sephiroth falling down together with the slashed cannon until he gave a surprise attack. it's just a simulation but it's feels like real. and what do you think about that cannon? as strong as a brick maybe? no. it's an iron. my opinion is, it's the same as the reality.

Even Cloud has better cutting feats than the cannon, don't know why this is being argued.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Even Cloud has better cutting feats than the cannon, don't know why this is being argued.

dude, they fought at the cannon. so it's not a big deal if sephiroth cut the cannon.

...What?

I wasn't arguing with you, I was agreeing with you.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
...What?

I wasn't arguing with you, I was agreeing with you.

ah, sorry about that

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
I made the fight thinking Team Soldier had an edge, but Sephiroth soloing the entire SF team?

Come on.
As we saw in the Chaos Vincent vs team ansatsuken thread, even Chaos would solo them, Sephiroth being even more powerful then Chaos, would do it even easier.

Originally posted by Terryc250
As we saw in the Chaos Vincent vs team ansatsuken thread, even Chaos would solo them, Sephiroth being even more powerful then Chaos, would do it even easier. Only deluded fanboys like yourself actually thought that though.

If you think they'd stand a chance against Chaos you're really kidding yourself, or you lack intelligence, theres absolutely nothing Gouki would do against Chaos, Chaos dwarfs him in every single aspect.

Every single aspect?

Being "dwarfed" by your enemy might be the reason for your eternal virginity, TerryC. But as far as this thread goes, that is hardly a valid statement. This match is much more even then you think, and I'm not just saying because I'm a hater (which I am).

Originally posted by Terryc250
If you think they'd stand a chance against Chaos you're really kidding yourself, or you lack intelligence, theres absolutely nothing Gouki would do against Chaos, Chaos dwarfs him in every single aspect. You're full of bullshit, you know that Terry?

Gouki is stronger, more durable, much much much more skilled, can hit harder, and may be more powerful, Vincent's best feat is killing a weakened Omega.

I'm not sure why you're interested in my "virginity" or even my sex-life for that matter, i mean.. this is a video game thread, most people interact with one another on this forum about the topic its a bit awkward that you feel the need to talk about my sex-life on this forum.

But anyway, if you bother to write that statement claiming its invalid, then you should state the reason why its invalid as well, so tell me, in what aspect does Gouki exceed in Chaos?



Again, claiming things without any bases of a single thing

Gouki is stronger? Chaos quaked the planet with a single blow, more skilled? Gouki won't even beable to land a single blow on Chaos, Chaos has inhuman reaction times, extreme speed, extreme power, you obviously know nothing about Chaos Vincent

Please watch this to educate yourself about Chaos Vincent

F6fqKrOHCJk#


More Durable? Chaos took stabs and regenerated like nothing, Chaos RIPPED right through Omega right through the lifestream which would disitegrate any SF character, watch 0:45 - 1:50

jyqGQmgws48#

Originally posted by Terryc250
I'm not sure why you're interested in my "virginity" or even my sex-life for that matter, i mean.. this is a video game thread, most people interact with one another on this forum about the topic its a bit awkward that you feel the need to talk about my sex-life on this forum.

Oh come on. Who wouldn't be interested in the sex life of Terry Crews? He's like, the best black guy ever.



You mean like this?:

Do i really need to explain it to you? I made that statement Sephiroth would solo them, Reason = Even a weaker character (Chaos Vincent) would solo them.

I said Chaos is greater in every single aspects, if you use your brain a little bit, the Reason = Chaos has shown to be far more stronger, durable, faster, etc

Instead of you just claiming invalid, you should say why.. you think Gouki is more stronger? You think he's more faster? Or what?

Originally posted by Terryc250
Do i really need to explain it to you?

This is the internet, Terry.




So... you were using an A>B>C argument fallacy?




Right... which you've just stated, until after I posted. You haven't actually shown any feats of Vincent's prior to my post, just Sepihroths. Yet you were still making these unsubstantiated statements.

Calm down. It's the internet.



Why should I, really? This forum is as much used for debating as it is for discussing, which means it is perfectly acceptable to share my opinion on the matter, and to disagree with others.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
This is the internet, Terry.
Just because its the internet doesn't mean common sense is non-existent.


Yes, there seems to be a belief around here that A>B>C means TOTALLY WRONG, when it's about always atleast 90% right most of the time, if even Chaos Vincent can't beat Sephiroth at full power, what makes you think Gouki or any of the other guys can?


I stated that Chaos is better then Gouki in every aspect, which is a statement from someone who has seen feats from both characters, if you're going to debate my statement atleast give a reason.


I am calm..




Its not that you just disagree, you stated that what i said was incorrect, so instead of just saying "No, you're wrong." and leaving it as that, you should atleast tell me why its wrong.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Just because its the Internet doesn't mean common sense is non-existent.

I was referring to the "Do I really have to" comment. This is the Internet. You don't really need to do anything.




It being correct isn't the point. It's still fallacious.




I'm debating your point?



Sexy too.




By stating that I find your argument to be incorrect, I am, in fact, disagreeing with it.

Dude.



That would be courteous of me.

Fine. I'm a jackass. Are you happy now?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
I was referring to the "Do I really have to" comment. This is the Internet. You don't really need to do anything.
Well obviously, but i prefer my posts be understood no matter how simple i stated them.


But most likely isn't, those things only work if one character has something to exploit the other character, like how kryptoniteman can beat superman but can't beat batman when superman can beat batman, or how drax can beat thanos, yet cannot beat thor, those kinds of things are rare and highly unlikely, especially with Chaos,Sephiroth,Gouki where 2 of the characters are far superior then one of them.


You're going against it.


Yes but its not just that, you're "stating" that what i said was incorrect.
So its not that you just say "I personally don't think so" you're basically saying that what i said were lies, all i'm asking is what part of what i said was a lie, and why do you think it is?



I'm neither happy, nor sad, i'm just curious.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Well obviously, but i prefer my posts be understood no matter how simple i stated them.

I know.




We're arguing semantics, at this point.





So because I didn't add "imo" to it you think I was stating my opnion as fact? That's a bit presumptuous, albeit understandable.



A lie is a deliberate skewering of the truth. If you genuinely believed that Gouki was superior, but said that Vincent was, then you'd be lying. You're not lying so much as misguided. For your benefit, I'll throw an "imo" in there.




I'm neither said, nor, happy, nor curious. I downloaded that shnazzy Kim Kardashian video and I'm rather anxious to get to that.

... You're trying to make things a lot more complicated then it is. You said that the things i said were incorrect, all i'm asking is that you tell me how are they, and in what way are they incorrect.

And I'm deliberately dancing around it because I don't want to get in a debate about it.

... ****. Least I'm honest.

I'm sure Akumas punch would hurt Sephiroth quite severely. If not take his head off. Team 2 take this.

Gouken could have killed Akuma but chose to spare him because they're brothers.

Gen would beat them SOLDIER boys down (Maybe not Sephiroth) without to much hassle.

Ryu and Ken would probably get the lightweights of the other team, but i'm confiedent they'd also win.

Originally posted by HonkyTonkMan
I'm sure Akumas punch would hurt Sephiroth quite severely. If not take his head off. Team 2 take this.

Gouken could have killed Akuma but chose to spare him because they're brothers.

Gen would beat them SOLDIER boys down (Maybe not Sephiroth) without to much hassle.

Ryu and Ken would probably get the lightweights of the other team, but i'm confiedent they'd also win.

Sorry but Sephiroth would kill them all with a gesture.

I don't see how any of them could escape the NL, or his TK, even if Sephiroth lets them live so he can toy with them they won't catch Sephiroth if he was moving at his maximum speed, Sephiroth could, teleport, go intangeable, and has far faster movement speed then any of them.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Gouki is stronger? Chaos quaked the planet with a single blow, more skilled? Gouki won't even beable to land a single blow on Chaos, Chaos has inhuman reaction times, extreme speed, extreme power, you obviously know nothing about Chaos Vincent

Please watch this to educate yourself about Chaos Vincent

F6fqKrOHCJk#


More Durable? Chaos took stabs and regenerated like nothing, Chaos RIPPED right through Omega right through the lifestream which would disitegrate any SF character, watch 0:45 - 1:50

jyqGQmgws48# Damn, you FFVII fans really need to stop lying. Omega's EXPLOSION quaked Earth(although actually...If I remember right his explosion didn't quake shit going by what we saw, though I could be wrong). Yes he is more skilled, like most of the FFVII characters, they don't actually wield much skill when using their powers, they use extreme speed and strength to overwhelm a being of lesser speed and strength. Inhuman reaction times? Even Ryu can effortlessly dodge bullets, Chaos is about bullet time. Extreme power? His best feat is destroying Omega after Omega was already greatly weakened, oh, and Omega hadn't absorbed the entire lifestream yet, otherwise everyone would be dead on the planet. Stop lying.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Sorry but Sephiroth would kill them all with a gesture.

I don't see how any of them could escape the NL, or his TK, even if Sephiroth lets them live so he can toy with them they won't catch Sephiroth if he was moving at his maximum speed, Sephiroth could, teleport, go intangeable, and has far faster movement speed then any of them. 1. Not by feats.

2. NL has never been used in a fight, and took time to use. His TK is not as Godly as you pretend it to be, and Gouki could escape it via intangibility and use one of his death moves on Seph while he is trying to TK rape the others. Sephiroth never teleported, the only thing that may have been tele was in CC, but I still mantain that was just high movement speed. Intangibility can't be used by Seph in battle as proven many times. Far faster movement speed? Not by feats.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Damn, you FFVII fans really need to stop lying. Omega's EXPLOSION quaked Earth(although actually...If I remember right his explosion didn't quake shit going by what we saw, though I could be wrong). Yes he is more skilled, like most of the FFVII characters, they don't actually wield much skill when using their powers, they use extreme speed and strength to overwhelm a being of lesser speed and strength. Inhuman reaction times? Even Ryu can effortlessly dodge bullets, Chaos is about bullet time. Extreme power? His best feat is destroying Omega after Omega was already greatly weakened, oh, and Omega hadn't absorbed the entire lifestream yet, otherwise everyone would be dead on the planet. Stop lying.
... Can i ask you a question? Why the **** would Omega WEAPON explode? Is he a giant robot? No. hes a living creature thats made entirely out of the lifestream, he goes back to the planet once he's dead, he dies just like any other creature, watch the video again, you clearly see Chaos exhausting his power, and ripping right THROUGH Omega, and you see him flying all the way through until he reaches the (the ground), and as soon as you see him reaching the light, the camera shows the ground impact.

I post the videos so you can watch it, so WATCH IT.

Omega WEAPON was weakened? Who do you think he was "weakened" by?

Ryu can't "effortlessly" dodge bullets, please show me him effortlessly dodging bullets please, oh you can't? Then don't state it.

Skill can only get you so far, what is Captian America going to do if he's up against the Sentry?

and Sephiroth was born a SOLDIER and was one his entire life, his skill is second to none, and his power/abilities are second to none

if you want to continue about chaos Vincent, why don't you continue it in Chaos Vincent vs Team Ansatsuken thread? remember this is team soldier vs team ansatsuken and we already have a thread for Chaos Vincent.

-continued from last post


So whats Goukis feats of escaping? None? k.


We know what the lifestream is capable of, the negative lifestream is no different, but j-cell infected lifestream, we've seen Kadaj use it as a source of magic, we've seen it as a source of life (the shm), theres no reason to assume its any different from the regular lifestream just because its infected with j-cells, Goukis "intageability" lasts how long? Sephiroth never teleported? Why would i state he can teleport if he cannot? I told you already, i don't lie, you're the only one who is obviously lying, you cannot back up anything you state, or even give any logical reasons.

You proved Sephiroths intageability cannot be used in battle? ... No you didn't, wheres you're proof? Please attempt at it again.

Far faster movement speed? Yes, ok, i will give reasons and provide some feats of Sephiroths movement speed, but you have to promise me you will show Gouki's "uber" movement speed feats as well.

First of all lets look at Loz' movement speed, Loz' is a weak remnant of Sephiroth, he's only a bit of his power, now, if lets look at his speed, watch at 3:03
AY0OF5z4QGw

Now if we look at Zacks speed, Zack has his speed why? Its because he is infused with JENOVA cells, now Sephiroth in AC is 100% Jenova, lets look at Zacks speed: 5:00
v7vxRWVt08g


Now since Sephiroth has NEVER exerted himself, you got to use your LOGIC to figure out how fast he actually is, but however he did show some speed in his battle in AC while he was toying with Cloud:

at 2:00 after knocking Cloud into the distant building, he warps to the entrance of it in about a single frame, then he slows down.
1iUkDMgIp2Y


http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9789/seph1gw2.jpg


http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9171/seph2tb0.jpg



Now its your turn to show me Gouki's feats, thanks

this is SOOOOOOOOOOO retarted, some people in the soldier team can one one shot the asatsuken team. why are we even debating this anymore?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is SOOOOOOOOOOO retarted, some people in the soldier team can one one shot the asatsuken team. why are we even debating this anymore?
Ken and Ryu, yes.


However, Gouki, Gen, and Gouken >>>>>>>>>>> Ken and Ryu, so no. I'm not even sure why those two were put in the list, they're not much more than sword fodder.

Gouki has never exerted himself in a fight either. We don't really know much about him going full-out on anyone except Gen and Gouken (inconclusive and defeat, respectively), so his overall speed is really inconclusive. Unless you can prove me otherwise.

His speed feats include teleporting from a Chinese urban location (undetermined) to the Great Wall of China in but a few seconds. (SFA3 Ending) Also, he was able to storm through about a kilometer of water in under 10 seconds in his 3rd Strike ending (which has been posted enough times in this forum by now).

Considering he moves at 100 m/s in water density (1000 kg/m^3) of course he'd move at a speed at least on par, if not better than, Sephiroth. We don't even know if he was going "full out" during the execution of this technique either.

Water is almost 1000x denser than air (1.7 kg/m^3). Do the math.

That was a significant amount of time, MUCH more than a "single" frame.

He beats Cloud through the building, there's a delay in time, there's another delay while Cloud staggers to his feet and picks up his F.Tsurugi. After THAT you see Sephiroth flip neatly into the hole that he bulled Cloud through.

Considering all that, he had to have been moving even SLOWER than what he was flying at to ambush Cloud from behind and to slash him through the wall in the first place.

I know that's fast. but remember that he used tenshou kairiki jin. speedwise, gouki is outmatched by team soldier except when he used tenshou kairiki jin. in regular speed, he is outclassed.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
I know that's fast. but remember that he used tenshou kairiki jin. speedwise, gouki is outmatched by team soldier except when he used tenshou kairiki jin. in regular speed, he is outclassed.
Yes, and that's with him "trying" to move. However, the move itself was designed for power anyways, not speed, as you can see from the end result of it.

"It's only that fast because he used Tenshou Kaireki Jin"
That's only partly true.

You have to think about his other moves that indicate his speed level; despite in-game appearances the Ashura Warp is "technically" supposed to be instantaneous (think in the style of Violent Ken's teleport from CvS2, or Yang's teleport in 3rd Strike), that evens out the playing field. For the most part, his "speed" is inherent in only inherent in a few of special moves anyway, because lorewise they were not designed to be such. The only one that I can think of that focuses primarily on speed of execution is the Misogi.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not saying that special-speed is equal to "regular" speed, but there's not too significant of a difference between the two.

Team 1 winz, their from Final Fantasy and to make thing worse they're from FF7. They win in a stomp.

Originally posted by Vampire Savior
Team 1 winz, their from Final Fantasy and to make thing worse they're from FF7. They win in a stomp.

another fanboy post . at least you could explain why team 1 wins and not just because they are FF7 characters

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
another fanboy post . at least you could explain why team 1 wins and not just because they are FF7 characters Are you kiddin, Seph is on par wit The Lord of Nightmares

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
...I get it.

I don't see whats so funny.

honestly, it's rare to see you at FF7 side.

Really? I've been "down" wit Final Fantasy from the start.

I hope you have nightmares....

sadly, I have a nice dream.

Cuz your weird, what nightmares would be to normal people are "nice dreams" to you. I hope you have nice dreams instead.

Originally posted by DarkC
Ken and Ryu, yes.

However, Gouki, Gen, and Gouken >>>>>>>>>>> Ken and Ryu, so no. I'm not even sure why those two were put in the list, they're not much more than sword fodder.
From watching them fight in street fighter 4, Gouki doesn't look like a being FAR FAR above these characters, he has to str5uggle with Ryu, and don't give me that "he probably wasn't trying" you can tell when someone isn't trying or is trying, Gouki was clearly making an effort in that fight.


And you're stating this by what? What makes you think in all of his fights he's never exerted himself at all, again from watching his fight with Ryu, he clearly was giving effort.


Ive seen the Street fighter Alpha 3 ending, Gouki did no such thing, 10 seconds is just an assumption, the 1 kilometre is just an assumption as well,


That wasn't his movement speed, he had to charge up and launch an attack to do that, it won't help him in a fight if he requires to charge up and launch an attack to move at that speed, while Sephiroth can regularly move at that speed


Did you look at the screenshots i posted? You clearly see Sephiroth was still in the distance after Cloud was to his feet, then he warped to the front of the building in a split second.


Again, i posted screens, you can see Sephiroth, he was far enough that you saw him as a small dot in the distance, then instantly he was at the entrance


Also Kirikaze Fuuma, Vampire Savior is what you call a "troll", he doesn't like FF7 characters, so he makes pointless idiotic posts trying to annoy people.

Originally posted by Terryc250
From watching them fight in street fighter 4, Gouki doesn't look like a being FAR FAR above these characters, he has to str5uggle with Ryu, and don't give me that "he probably wasn't trying" you can tell when someone isn't trying or is trying, Gouki was clearly making an effort in that fight.

And you're stating this by what? What makes you think in all of his fights he's never exerted himself at all, again from watching his fight with Ryu, he clearly was giving effort.
You mean the anime-based ad?

You cannot tell accurately whether Gouki has been trying in the time sequence before the actual trailer starts, it pretty much just cuts in with Ryu clearly haven been owned by Gouki. Also, you can't judge a person entirely by how much effort they put into a fight. Gouki clearly got overconfident and careless, leaving himself open to a shoryuken from Ryu.

What constitutes him giving effort anyways? He stopped 'messing' around with Ryu, but only after his mistake from being far too careless.

You don't have anything to compare it with, so I'm not even sure why you say he's "clearly" giving effort after Ryu gets up. In retrospect, this is the exact same effort that Sephiroth treated Cloud with in FF: AC, and look who won because of lack of seriousness on Sephiroth's behalf - despite Sephiroth being leagues above Cloud.

In all other regards, Gouki >>>>> Ryu.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Ive seen the Street fighter Alpha 3 ending, Gouki did no such thing
Actually it was the SFA2 ending.
Yes he did, he used a different Ashura to warp to the Great Wall of China after he beat Gen.
mrDGgY3OSUA
Originally posted by Terryc250
10 seconds is just an assumption
No, it isn't. The 3rd Strike ending movie is animated in "real-time" rather than using solely still GIF's; and about 10 seconds is the difference between the submarine losing contact with the surface ship and Gouki exploding out of the surface.
Originally posted by Terryc250
the 1 kilometre is just an assumption as well,
Clearly you have not read my points that I brought up when I was debating against Smash some time earlier, judging by these two points that you brought up.

Anyways, 1km is NOT an assumption. I never make facts up completely.
You can see from the 3rd Strike ending that the lighting in the water is remarkably low, even though it was 'lightened' for viewing's sake (the submarine wouldn't have used it's headlights if it were really that light)

At the 1200m level (1 km) only about 2% of surface light reaches that depth.

Originally posted by Terryc250
That wasn't his movement speed, he had to charge up and launch an attack to do that, it won't help him in a fight if he requires to charge up and launch an attack to move at that speed, while Sephiroth can regularly move at that speed
First of all, do you see him charging anything up? Any ki energies swirling anywhere?

No, the only view you get of him is about a second's glance of him standing on top of the ship, before the view switches to the surface. Considering that canonically it takes no time to charge up a cheap-ass attack like Shungokusatsu, neither of us can really form conjectures about it. Your point here is moot.

Can Sephiroth blow through a kilometer's worth of ocean water in mere seconds? When have you seen him exert such strength?
Originally posted by Terryc250
Did you look at the screenshots i posted? You clearly see Sephiroth was still in the distance after Cloud was to his feet, then he warped to the front of the building in a split second. Again, i posted screens, you can see Sephiroth, he was far enough that you saw him as a small dot in the distance, then instantly he was at the entrance

Cloud could not have been more than 100m from the building that he was smashed through. Your depth perception is remarkably poor; 100m is not even close to be termed as "in the distance". Watch, 2:52. Look at the size of Cloud when he struck the building, you're severely overshooting it.
bWQmByCodXM
As for your screenshots, how am I supposed to simply take your word that a tiny grey smudge on the screen is the entirety of Sephiroth's body, supposedly in the distance?
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9789/seph1gw2.jpg
You can't see anything, let alone a body, let alone a body PART.

Sorry, but I have to see better proof than this.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9789/seph1gw2.jpg

It's a bird.

Originally posted by DarkC
You mean the anime-based ad?

You cannot tell accurately whether Gouki has been trying in the time sequence before the actual trailer starts, it pretty much just cuts in with Ryu clearly haven been owned by Gouki. Also, you can't judge a person entirely by how much effort they put into a fight. Gouki clearly got overconfident and careless, leaving himself open to a shoryuken from Ryu.

What constitutes him giving effort anyways? He stopped 'messing' around with Ryu, but only after his mistake from being far too careless.

You don't have anything to compare it with, so I'm not even sure why you say he's "clearly" giving effort after Ryu gets up. In retrospect, this is the exact same effort that Sephiroth treated Cloud with in FF: AC, and look who won because of lack of seriousness on Sephiroth's behalf - despite Sephiroth being leagues above Cloud.

In all other regards, Gouki >>>>> Ryu.


.. It wasn't clear that Ryu was "owned" he lost yes, but you cannot judge that Gouki simply wtfpwned him, you can CLEARLY see Gouki is giving effort fighting Ryu, he's grunting with each attack, etc, unlike the Sephiroth vs Cloud fight where Sephiroth basically casually chats to Cloud with a smile on his face the throughout the fight,
Like really, watch it, 2:50 on, hes grunting with force, and i'd even say Ryu was getting the better of the fight, it even seems like Gouki was losing his cool at the end, you cannot say Gouki was toying around in that fight like how Sephiroth was toying with Cloud, and yes Sephiroth is leagues above Cloud, and Cloud is above Ryu.
AeVRNZxOkwc



Haha, its funny how you're trying to make everything "real-time" you can clearly see the sun is out in the fight against Gen, you can see it seeping through even after the fight, Gouki ashura'd away and out of Gens sight, he didn't ashura all the way to the great wall, because it was clearly nighttime and a full moon when he got there.


Care to show me a reliable source of where you got your information?

And infact you can see it wasn't TOO far from the surface because if you watch at the beginning where it showed the sunlight you can see a strong patch of bubbles coming from the submarine moving from the water, and yes a submarine would still use its headlights for a more clear look, even if it was slightly dark, they'd put on their headlights for a more clear look.


Gouki charges for all his specials, he only doesnt charge for his supers, he even has a small charge when he does his flame hadouken, you don't see him charging because you don't even see him doing the attack.

I doubt that was a kilometer underwater, and yes Sephiroth can do it with a gesture, the negative lifestream, he'd disitegrate the entire ship and water, or crush it with TK, althought we've never seen him even close to 100%, he was stated even above Chaos Vincent, and you should know what Chaos Vincent is capable of puts Gouki's feats to shame.


It only looks that close because the building is HUGE, if they stood from the building to where Sephiroth hit him, they would appear as dots.



... that is Sephiroth... what do you think it is a bird in the distance that transforms into Sephiroth? Or Sephiroth turned into an ant then transformed back into himself? If you actually watch it in slow motion its Sephiroth

Go 2:00, and repeatedly press play/pause
nbwiDIy-m2Y

Originally posted by Vampire Savior
Cuz your weird, what nightmares would be to normal people are "nice dreams" to you. I hope you have nice dreams instead.

haha. thank you very much.



that's why I didn't take him seriously.

Originally posted by Terryc250
.. It wasn't clear that Ryu was "owned" he lost yes, but you cannot judge that Gouki simply wtfpwned him
Yeah, I'm not sure what you consider "dominated", but considering that Gouki lifted a prone Ryu up by his head and tossed him away, I'd consider Ryu "wtfpwned" there, at least at that juncture.
Originally posted by Terryc250
you can CLEARLY see Gouki is giving effort fighting Ryu, he's grunting with each attack, etc unlike the Sephiroth vs Cloud fight where Sephiroth basically casually chats to Cloud with a smile on his face the throughout the fight. Like really, watch it, 2:50 on, hes grunting with force, and i'd even say Ryu was getting the better of the fight, it even seems like Gouki was losing his cool at the end, you cannot say Gouki was toying around in that fight like how Sephiroth was toying with Cloud, and yes Sephiroth is leagues above Cloud, and Cloud is above Ryu.

You judge amount of effort by the way someone makes noises during a fight? Gouki grunts when he does everything, just so you know. It's the way he fights.

That's not why I brought up the analogy at all; you're taking it the wrong way. Gouki naturally grunts when he fights - Sephiroth doesn't. The whole point of me bringing that up was to show you another instance where someone far superior to their opponent gets defeated because of carelessness; that's how both Gouki and Sephiroth lost to their rivals.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Haha, its funny how you're trying to make everything "real-time"
Actually I only referred to 3rd Strike's ending as "real-time", if you had bothered to read properly.
Originally posted by Terryc250
you can clearly see the sun is out in the fight against Gen, you can see it seeping through even after the fight, Gouki ashura'd away and out of Gens sight he didn't ashura all the way to the great wall, because it was clearly nighttime and a full moon when he got there.
That's still ambiguous then.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Care to show me a reliable source of where you got your information?

And infact you can see it wasn't TOO far from the surface because if you watch at the beginning where it showed the sunlight you can see a strong patch of bubbles coming from the submarine moving from the water, and yes a submarine would still use its headlights for a more clear look, even if it was slightly dark, they'd put on their headlights for a more clear look.
http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/La-Mi/Light-Transmission-in-the-Ocean.html


Also, Tiamat's Street Fighter Canon Guide states that:


There you go.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Gouki charges for all his specials, he only doesnt charge for his supers, he even has a small charge when he does his flame hadouken, you don't see him charging because you don't even see him doing the attack.
Canon-wise he's never used his supers on anyone else. From the two that we HAVE seen performed, none of them required any form of charging whatsoever.
Originally posted by Terryc250
It only looks that close because the building is HUGE, if they stood from the building to where Sephiroth hit him, they would appear as dots.
Yes...and that's still only around 100m at the most.
Originally posted by Terryc250
... that is Sephiroth... what do you think it is a bird in the distance that transforms into Sephiroth? Or Sephiroth turned into an ant then transformed back into himself? If you actually watch it in slow motion its Sephiroth
Basically you can go ahead and repeat it all you want, but right now it's still unconfirmed as to whether or not that's a body shot of Sephiroth, or the top of his head, etc. Repeating something over and over isn't going to make it fact. I stand by what I said, I need clearer evidence than this.

Even if what you said is true, he travelled about 100m in a few seconds, which in comparison to other feats, is not very impressive at all.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Go 2:00, and repeatedly press play/pause
I have (clicking as fast as I can on that button). And it still looks as if Sephiroth is approaching from below, rather than head-on as what you've described.

it's bird! it's plane! it's sephiroth! dude, does it need to be stated that sephiroth's body at that distance is a bird? it's sephiroth himself. no need for explanation whether it's a bird, a plane or sephiroth.

and gouki never jumped from 3000 leagues, 3000 meters. I guess it's about 150 meters.

Originally posted by DarkC
Yeah, I'm not sure what you consider "dominated", but considering that Gouki lifted a prone Ryu up by his head and tossed him away, I'd consider Ryu "wtfpwned" there, at least at that juncture.
That doesn't mean anything, he could've just been simply defeated. Theres no way of judging Ryu got "pwned" or dominated.


No one just naturally grunts, grunting is a sign of using force, does Gouki grunt when he picks up a spoon to eat? If he was fighting a 5 year old kid is he going to grunt? Its easy to tell when someone is putting in effort or not.

Actually I only referred to 3rd Strike's ending as "real-time", if you had bothered to read properly.
And you were trying to make out the SFA2 ending as real-time as well.

Oh please, theres sunlight in one scene and in the other scene theres a full moon, the answer is obvious, hours have passed from scene 1 and scene 2, he didn't literally teleport to the great wall of china.


I hope you know that Tiamuts canon guide, most of it is what he interperetes as canon. And the meaning of the name isn't relevent to how deep the submarine is at that very moment.


Show me the times hes done his supers, in that SF4 anime clip when he did his super there was a small charge, i'm guessing a more powerful super would require a more charge, I don't see Gouki flying around instakicking like regular kicks.


Wrong, if we stood 100m away from eachother, we would not see eachother as small dots, we'd still easily beable to make out eachothers bodyparts, etc.


.. I thought for a few seconds how that being the top of his head would make any sense, but it didn't.


A few seconds? He was a dot in the distance to infront of your face in about 1/5th of a second..


wow, apparently you're having troubles seeing frames, or have bad eyesight, so i made this for you:
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6812/sephibo8.gif

Please concede, that IS Sephiroth.

Wow, use evidence from a lame ass SF anime?
Lulz.

Guys, please go read up on what is considered canon and non-canon for this forum, and when non-canon sources are allowable...

(aka - check the rules thread)

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
haha. thank you very much. That wasn't a compliment.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
that's why I didn't take him seriously. I can't believe that you actually believe him. Shame on you.


Also Kirikaze Fuuma, Vampire Savior is what you call a "troll", he doesn't like FF7 characters, so he makes pointless idiotic posts trying to annoy people.You know you really suck at this....

I have said numerous times that FF7 was 1 of all time favs. I even asked if there was a Zack respect thread cuz Zack is 1 of my all time favs...jus cuz I aint a HUGE fanboi like you doesn't mean I don't like it. It's ridiculous fanboiz like you that gives Final Fantasy a bad name. Along wit other great games.

So, trick PLEEZ....


Originally posted by Sado22
I hope you aint serious?

Trick PLEEZ....

Originally posted by Vampire Savior
I can't believe that you actually believe him. Shame on you.

You know you really suck at this....

I have said numerous times that FF7 was 1 of all time favs. I even asked if there was a Zack respect thread cuz Zack is 1 of my all time favs...jus cuz I aint a HUGE fanboi like you doesn't mean I don't like it. It's ridiculous fanboiz like you that gives Final Fantasy a bad name. Along wit other great games.

So, trick PLEEZ....


.. Are you trying to deny that you were trolling? Don't even bother.

Never before have I lied about anything on FF7, if stating the truth is being a fanboy then i guess i am, i have never stated anything out of line like "Sephiroth would pwn Pyron" or anything like that, all i'm doing is exposing knowledge to people who lack in that area about FF7 characters.

So either participate in the debate, or stop your pointless off-topic posts.

Originally posted by Terryc250
.. Are you trying to deny that you were trolling? Don't even bother. No, I just said what most who thinks the FF7 team would win were thinkin. "Team 1 winz cuz there from FF7" and Team 2 are just SFs".

Originally posted by Terryc250
.. Never before have I lied about anything on FF7, if stating the truth is being a fanboy then i guess i am, i have never stated anything out of line like "Sephiroth would pwn Pyron" or anything like that, all i'm doing is exposing knowledge to people who lack in that area about FF7 characters. C'mon dude, you think Seph and Cloud can mop the floor wit anybody they fight.

Fine, I wont call you a name if you don't call me one. Is that fair to you?

Originally posted by Terryc250
.. So either participate in the debate, or stop your pointless off-topic posts. . What did I say that was off topic? I said Team 1 would win and all BS aside...Team 1 would actually win this fight, IMO.

Lets just chill man...be 1 wt the Earth.

Originally posted by Vampire Savior
No, I just said what most who thinks the FF7 team would win were thinkin. "Team 1 winz cuz there from FF7" and Team 2 are just SFs".

No, i give explanations why.


Uh no, when have i stated they'd mop the floor with ANYONE they fight? Sephiroth > Gouki, Sephiroth was a planetary threat, he has stopped a power that were capable of destroying everything on the planet, he took control over the source of life,magic,energy,power, Sephiroth was stated above beings like Omega WEAPON, Chaos, Minerva, he was even capable of transforming the entire planet into his vessel, Gouki hasn't came close to this kind of power, or demonstrated that kind of power.

so, you want me to take you seriously?



check your PM box.

Originally posted by Terryc250
That doesn't mean anything, he could've just been simply defeated. Theres no way of judging Ryu got "pwned" or dominated.
If he was beaten up to the point where he allowed Gouki to pick him up by his head then toss him away like a piece of fodder, then yes, he did get dominated. Badly, I might add.


According to your standards, from what I've seen here, one must have to been beaten to within an inch of their life for you to concede that they have been "dominated", a concept is obviously very absurd.
Originally posted by Terryc250
No one just naturally grunts, grunting is a sign of using force, does Gouki grunt when he picks up a spoon to eat? If he was fighting a 5 year old kid is he going to grunt? Its easy to tell when someone is putting in effort or not.
Read what I said, it's the way Gouki naturally is when he fights, not eats. I'm not even sure why you brought that up.

There's a difference between mere "effort" and your conception of actually "trying"; if you're basing your argument on the fact that Gouki was grunting (out of all things, really) when fighting Ryu then I could just claim a victory there right here and now; he's always done it while fighting - just like he's always shouted something when he's doing a super.

Since when he has he fought a 5-year old? Ridiculous to bring that up, sorry.
Originally posted by Terryc250
And you were trying to make out the SFA2 ending as real-time as well.
Actually, like I said, it's ambiguous.


I only used it because Sado22 brought it up in the Gouki vs Cloud thread - and he was supporting Cloud. To be honest, I didn't even know about that "feat" until he brought it up - and I usually don't mind using an opponent's source of facts/evidence.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Oh please, theres sunlight in one scene and in the other scene theres a full moon, the answer is obvious, hours have passed from scene 1 and scene 2, he didn't literally teleport to the great wall of china.
Read above.

It's still technically unclear; the next scene you see him standing on the Great Wall of China, not arriving there - for all we knew he could have arrived an hour ago, or 5 hours before the time frame of that scene. IN your opinion, minutes.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I hope you know that Tiamuts canon guide, most of it is what he interperetes as canon. And the meaning of the name isn't relevent to how deep the submarine is at that very moment.
Terribly wrong.

"Most" of what Tiamat's guide is retrieved from official statements , or interview transcripts from Capcom. Granted, there are instances where there are unclear sources of information, but he always notes that its not final and that it's unconfirmed. (There seem to be a few in the Fights section, where he mentions it a lot.)

If it was entirely based on his solely UNbased conjuecture, he wouldn't have bothered to write it at all. It's the main reason why people refer to it so often, is because of its accuracy.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Show me the times hes done his supers, in that SF4 anime clip when he did his super there was a small charge, i'm guessing a more powerful super would require a more charge, I don't see Gouki flying around instakicking like regular kicks.
Most of the supers he's actually done at all are mainly Shungokusatsus, where he just does it instantly and without warning.

The only other supers he's done are Kongokokuretsu San (which was never depicted in anything other than gameplay, and the actual "charge" up time is unknown), Tenshou Kaireki Jin (none, as shown in the 3S ending), and Tenma Gou Zankuu Kouu (in the SF4 trailer, about half a second).

The one you see in the SF4 anime trailer is the Tenma Gou Zankuu Kouu, a level 2 super. Considering that the only two known level 3 supers, Shungokusatsu and Misogi are stated to be instantaneous (charge-up time for Misogi is unclear, but common sense points to none if you look at the nature of the move) - his most powerful moves wouldn't require more than a second to charge.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Wrong, if we stood 100m away from eachother, we would not see eachother as small dots, we'd still easily beable to make out eachothers bodyparts, etc.
Not unless you had perfect 20/20 eyesight.

You've never played a football game, evidently.
Originally posted by Terryc250
.. I thought for a few seconds how that being the top of his head would make any sense, but it didn't.
You also apparently did not notice the sizeable cloud of dust that rose when Cloud was smashed through the wall of the building.
Originally posted by Terryc250
wow, apparently you're having troubles seeing frames, or have bad eyesight, so i made this for you:
Neither, actually.

If you're ignorant to the point to ignore the terrible video quality of YouTube and point the blame solely to my eyesight, that's another thing altogether. Coupling this and the fact that I was actually making repeated effort to see what you described, that doesn't make a very good statement for you.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Please concede, that IS Sephiroth.
Fine.
Originally posted by Peach
Guys, please go read up on what is considered canon and non-canon for this forum, and when non-canon sources are allowable...

(aka - check the rules thread)
Like I said, your rules have a enormous fault to them in which someone could unfairly capitalize on, leading to unproductive and pointless VS threads.

I think I mentioned it in the Pyron vs Sephiroth thread, before it was closed.

Gouki: *gouki eating cereals* HUMPH! HUMPH! HUMPH! HOOYAH!!!

Yeah, that's what I thought too...just WAAAAAAY too bizarre to even picture. He took it to a whole new plane when I said "he grunts when he does everything".

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u130/kensaburo/humor/Lolowl.jpg

Originally posted by Sado22
Gouki: *gouki eating cereals* HUMPH! HUMPH! HUMPH! HOOYAH!!!



Damn it Sado. crylaugh

I fully would have expected toilet humor, TBH.

Originally posted by DarkC
If he was beaten up to the point where he allowed Gouki to pick him up by his head then toss him away like a piece of fodder, then yes, he did get dominated. Badly, I might add.

... tossing someone by their head after one is defeated is not real evidence that he dominated him in the fight.. Ryu could've just lost, theres no way to tell, it could've been a good fight with gouki being the victor, and stll he could've tossed Ryu by the head while he was down.


No.. all i'm saying is that tossing him by the head after Ryu was defeated is not evidence that Ryu was totally dominated, Ryu could've landed some shots in as well.


Whats your basis of this claim? You're saying even if hes putting no force in his blows, and not trying, he'll still be grunting with each blow? I don't buy it, no one throws a soft punch and grunts, Gouki was obviously putting in an effort.


The fact that he is throwing supers in the fight also means he's putting in an effort to fight Ryu, seriously theres no basis of claim to say he wasn't trying at all in that fight, you can show anyone and anyone would tell you that he was clearly putting in an effort. He's always done it when he fights someone that he needs to put an effort on, you think if he was fighting someone with no martial arts skill, he'd still be grunting ?


Its clear that theres no basis to claim he teleported from scene 1 to scene 2.



Show me the proof that Shungokusatsus is instantaneous, again i want to see videos of him performing it in canon, or evidence you cannot say Tenshou Kaireki Jin has no charge, because well, you don't see him performing it in the ending.


Actually i used to do a lot of track and field, and i definately recall the 100m sprint competitions, standing from one end i'm 100% certain the people DID NOT appear as small little dots in the distance.


its clear enough to make out, and im pretty sure other people can make it out as well, its not "terrible" its clear enough.

Originally posted by Terryc250
... tossing someone by their head after one is defeated is not real evidence that he dominated him in the fight.. Ryu could've just lost, theres no way to tell, it could've been a good fight with gouki being the victor, and stll he could've tossed Ryu by the head while he was down.
Considering that Gouki was in excellent shape and stamina, to the point where he rained his flame gouhadoukens left and right of Ryu just to mock him, then yes I would say that Gouki completely dominated the fight - he wouldn't have grounds to spite Ryu for it so heavily otherwise.

If, say - he were breathing heavily and staggering, then yes, that indicates that it would have been a good fight, but all other evidence so far very clearly points toward a one-sided fight, before Ryu got up.
Originally posted by Terryc250
No.. all i'm saying is that tossing him by the head after Ryu was defeated is not evidence that Ryu was totally dominated, Ryu could've landed some shots in as well.
No, read above; like I said, there's nothing to indicate a 'fair' fight so to speak in the trailer, all the visuals point towards a battle heavily in favour of Gouki. You can sit and speculate all you want like this, but I've given you clear evidence that suggests otherwise.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Whats your basis of this claim? You're saying even if hes putting no force in his blows, and not trying, he'll still be grunting with each blow? I don't buy it, no one throws a soft punch and grunts, Gouki was obviously putting in an effort.
No, you completely misunderstood my point.


The fact that he isn't trying terribly hard against Ryu (not putting in ZERO effort, obviously, as you seem to think I implied) doesn't mean that he has to throw soft punches and kicks, just for the heck of it. Since when have you seen Gouki (or any other Street Fighter, for that matter) not make noise? If anything, Gouki makes the least noise. If he was yelling, or something like you see in the 3S ending ("Muuuuuuuuun! Tenshou Kaireki Jin!!" then yes, that would clearly indicate effort.

Grunting is just a reflex, and should be treated as such.
Originally posted by Terryc250
The fact that he is throwing supers in the fight also means he's putting in an effort to fight Ryu, seriously theres no basis of claim to say he wasn't trying at all in that fight, you can show anyone and anyone would tell you that he was clearly putting in an effort. He's always done it when he fights someone that he needs to put an effort on, you think if he was fighting someone with no martial arts skill, he'd still be grunting ?
No, please go back and read my posts, I'm very sure I acknowledged that Gouki was putting in SOME effort after Ryu got up - just not before, so you're beating a dead horse here essentially. Pay attention.

You're dragging this argument into troubled waters for no good reason. He only fights those who are worthy of his time, why on Earth would he allow himself to fight someone without any martial arts skill? Presumption and speculation might be nice sometimes, but they serve no real purpose here. And so far, the fights that we've seen "live", he grunts. End of story.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Its clear that theres no basis to claim he teleported from scene 1 to scene 2.
Neither the other way around either, which is why I said it was ambiguous.

Remember, I only used this evidence because Sado22 brought it up some time earlier in another thread.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Show me the proof that Shungokusatsus is instantaneous, again i want to see videos of him performing it in canon, or evidence you cannot say Tenshou Kaireki Jin has no charge, because well, you don't see him performing it in the ending.

There's only been one instance of him performing it in a video I believe, and you can clearly see that it's very fast and requires little charge-up.
1FjR_VZ0uA0

Also I think this frame is from the Udon comic (I remember that it was some form of comic. Although TECHNICALLY it is not canon, we'll use it here for the sake of argument, considering how little evidence of what a shungokusatsu is really like there is.

http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs9/300W/i/2006/143/5/a/shun_goku_satsu_by_arnistotle.jpg
As you can see, Gouken barely has time to yell before he's taken under by Gouki, strongly suggesting that it's a very fast and unpredictable move outside of in-game. Remember, at this point in the plot Gouken had actually just beat Gouki in battle and he spared Gouki from a battlefield death because they were brothers - Gouki then taunted Gouken for his weakness, then pulled the Shungokusatsu on him.

As for the Tenshou Kaireki Jin, there's about a 2 second difference beween the shots of the ship on the surface ("What was that?" and the submarine losing radio contact with the ship. Considering that there was no visible sign of Gouki focusing his ki or something similar, at MOST it would have taken two seconds to charge and then start up the move, blasting everything up to the surface.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Actually i used to do a lot of track and field, and i definately recall the 100m sprint competitions, standing from one end i'm 100% certain the people DID NOT appear as small little dots in the distance.
Not small specks in the distance, blurs more or less.
Originally posted by Terryc250
its clear enough to make out, and im pretty sure other people can make it out as well, its not "terrible" its clear enough.
They very likely just accepted your word for it or were too lazy to question it. However, having watched that fight countless times on YouTube, I had to question it - I was always under the impression that Sephiroth flipped into that hole from below, rather than approaching it head on from afar.

-edit-

Originally posted by DarkC
Considering that Gouki was in excellent shape and stamina, to the point where he rained his flame gouhadoukens left and right of Ryu just to mock him, then yes I would say that Gouki completely dominated the fight - he wouldn't have grounds to spite Ryu for it so heavily otherwise.

You cannot tell that, after Ryu got up, he seemed to be in "excellent shape and stamina" as well, its ambiguous how the fight went.


Again, after Ryu got up, he seemed to be in excellent shape and stamina, so obviously Gouki didn't beat him THAT bad.


Don't use the automatic gameplay noise as an excuse that its reflex while fighting, Ryu doesn't make any grunting noise in gameplay, yet in the fight they were both grunting while throwing punches and countering eachother, they were both putting in much effort.

No basis to claim that.


You're stating that Gouki put in no effort and defeated Ryu like nothing in the pre-fight which we don't even get to see, the only reason you're claiming that is because Gouki threw him by his head after Ryu was defeated, sorry but thats ridiculous, he could've just been mrerely defeated, and Gouki could've thrown him from any part of his body it wouldn't matter, we don't see the fight so its ambiguous.


There you go. He fights those who are worthy hence, he needs to try. He wouldn't fight anyone he can simply "own", he needs to put in effort to defeat Ryu.


Then that ending shouldn't have been brought up in the first place.

Besides the fact that you don't even see shungokusatsu being performed, "Capcom vs" games are NON-CANON towards the Street Fighter, so posting that is irrelevent, posting the comics is irrelevent as well, so claiming shungokusatsu requires no charge up is baseless.

and uhh no.. 2 seconds? More like 7 seconds after his Gouki's eyes flash, then the man says the radio has been cut. Anyway a 2 second chargeup is actually quite long in a real fight.


No, its a black dot, either way its far from simply 100m.


Its because he warps so fast that it seems like that, it wasn't until i actually paid attention that i saw he really came from a far distance.

Originally posted by Terryc250
You cannot tell that, after Ryu got up, he seemed to be in "excellent shape and stamina" as well, its ambiguous how the fight went.

Again, after Ryu got up, he seemed to be in excellent shape and stamina, so obviously Gouki didn't beat him THAT bad.
You're judging Ryu on how he performed after he stood up and completely disregarding the fact that he was facedown, unmoving, probably unconscious and almost completely oblivious to the fact that fireballs are raining down on all sides of him.

That's just absurd, sorry.

The fact that he made a very good recovery doesn't at all negate the fact that he got beaten, and very badly too. He was down and out for quite some time, as you can see - and you're still too stubborn to admit that, okay, maybe Ryu did get owned after all, at least at that juncture?

The man is getting a mud facial, for Pete's sake, and you say "No, he's fine".

Ridiculous.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Don't use the automatic gameplay noise as an excuse that its reflex while fighting
What do you suggest I use then? There is no other source, and while gameplay mechanics are very often faulty, they're still technically viable sometimes, AKA here.

You're trying to drink out of an empty cup here, Terry.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Ryu doesn't make any grunting noise in gameplay
What the h - ?

How many Street Fighter games have you played?
Originally posted by Terryc250
yet in the fight they were both grunting while throwing punches and countering eachother, they were both putting in much effort.
Again, this silly grunting = much effort fallacy of yours. Terrible reasoning, I've already explained why several times now and all you're doing is making me repeat myself by just retreating back to your "they're grunting, that automatically means he's trying really hard" statement.

Considering that you have contributed (quite literally) absolutely nothing to this segment of the argument, I will end this part of the debate right here, judging from you refusing to think productively.
Originally posted by Terryc250
No basis to claim that.
What "claim", Terry? It's fact.

Originally posted by Terryc250
You're stating that Gouki put in no effort and defeated Ryu like nothing in the pre-fight which we don't even get to see, the only reason you're claiming that is because Gouki threw him by his head after Ryu was defeated, sorry but thats ridiculous he could've just been mrerely defeated
The "pre" fight itself is unclear, correct, but we can very clearly see who won and who lost, and by what margin too. The first thing you see is Ryu facedown in the dirt unconscious while Gouki is somewhere up above happily raining fireballs down everywhere, intentionally not hitting Ryu in an attempt to mock him. It's very obvious now that Ryu got owned pretty bad, any attempt to deny this is just folly. You have no basis in fact, just speculation - while I present to you the obvious and the facts, you fall back on speculation.

I stand by what I said before, your standards of "dominated" translate to the person being beat nearly to death before they would, to you, be 'dominated'.

If it was in your circumstances, a "fair" fight, where both gave as good as they got, then by your logic Akuma should be close to collapse as well; do you see him such? No. You are wrong.

You are not thinking outside the box here, Terry - what if's and could've's don't matter to me at this point, solid fact does.

Gouki lives by the code of the warrior - he doesn't mock the fighters that he respects. Look at the way he treated Gen in SFA2, even going so far as to address Gen with the honorific title "Master Gen". To him Gen was a true warrior, one without weakness, and that's part of the reason why Akuma spared him.

Now, Ryu on the other hand, annoys Gouki because Gouki knows he can become a much better fighter, one "worthy of challenge" (Tiamat) if Ryu embraced the Satsui no Hadou. It was why Gouki called him a "spineless coward", for not embracing the power he so rightfully should have. So he beats Ryu up when he refuses to use SNH in an attempt to show that "he's doing it wrong".
Originally posted by Terryc250
and Gouki could've thrown him from any part of his body it wouldn't matter, we don't see the fight so its ambiguous.
Why was this even brought up?
Originally posted by Terryc250
There you go. He fights those who are worthy hence, he needs to try. He wouldn't fight anyone he can simply "own", he needs to put in effort to defeat Ryu.
He wouldn't seriously fight anyone he can simply "own", that's why he "holds back" in the first place as said in the 3S guide. There's a difference.

I didn't say it required absolutely "no" effort at all (again, pay attention), but he could defeat Ryu without breaking too much of a sweat.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Besides the fact that you don't even see shungokusatsu being performed, "Capcom vs" games are NON-CANON towards the Street Fighter, so posting that is irrelevent, posting the comics is irrelevent as well, so claiming shungokusatsu requires no charge up is baseless.
Ok, so you've resorted to calling me out on canon vs non-canon resources as an argument substitute; thanks for stating the obvious, I've already acknowledged it and told you it was for the sake of argument. Those were the only two times I remember Shungokusatsu being performed at all - besides the anime (which is quite coincedentally non-canon as well) which I could not find, where it was actually depicted.

If you want to actually provide me some proof or fact, or something that indicates that shungokusatsu is canon-wise a slow move, feel free. I absolutely hate debates where most of what I see is pure speculation.

Anyways, those are the only things I can technically "show" you of shungokusatsu being performed - the only times he's performed it were on Bison, Gouken, and Gen, the latter two I've already attempted to show you. However, during the account vs Bison, he apparently "surprised" Bison with a SGS, "killing him instantly". Again, this indicates speed.
Originally posted by Terryc250
and uhh no.. 2 seconds? More like 7 seconds after his Gouki's eyes flash, then the man says the radio has been cut. Anyway a 2 second chargeup is actually quite long in a real fight.
I cut back time because of the time it took for him to travel to the surface of the water, remember.

Why on Earth would he attempt pull off a move like Tenshou Kaireki Jin in the middle of a hard-boiled fight? Whatever you make think, he's not stupid enough to try it unless he had space.
Originally posted by Terryc250
No, its a black dot, either way its far from simply 100m.
You're looking at it from a screen, a 640 x 340 one.


If you were Cloud looking at that "dot", would it still be a dot?
Think differently here, change perspective.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Its because he warps so fast that it seems like that, it wasn't until i actually paid attention that i saw he really came from a far distance.
Alright, cool. At least that's been cleared up.

Originally posted by DarkC
You're judging Ryu on how he performed after he stood up and completely disregarding the fact that he was facedown, unmoving, probably unconscious and almost completely oblivious to the fact that fireballs are raining down on all sides of him.

That's just absurd, sorry.

The fact that he made a very good recovery doesn't at all negate the fact that he got beaten, and very badly too. He was down and out for quite some time, as you can see - and you're still too stubborn to admit that, okay, maybe Ryu did get owned after all, at least at that juncture?

The man is getting a mud facial, for Pete's sake, and you say "No, he's fine".

Ridiculous.

And? The fact that he was able to get up afterwards and fight like nothing happened to him obviously means he wasn't terribly injured.

If he was totally injured he would he limping and all that.

Use common sense, use regular logic, people don't grunt because its their "natural reflex" people normally grunt or make a noise when they're using a lot of force, like if a person is trying to push something heavy over, they'll grunt as they push.



Grunting = Effort, means he's putting in force behind his punches, your "Gouki isn't trying" is straight fail, anyone who watches that video can tell you he's putting in effort against Ryu, also the fact that he even starts to lose his cool tells you he's putting in effort.


Right.. says the guy who starts claiming all these fail things about Gouki, only to provide non-canon facts, and lies all this time.


Yes its a reflex of putting in much effort, if i was using alot of force to push something over or throw a hard punch i guess i'd grunt out of reflex.


We can see who won and lost correct, but no we cannot see Ryu get "pwned" again, he lost yes, but your ridiculous "Ryu mustve got pwned because Gouki tossed him by his head" is totally fallacious.


No, dominated to me is person 1, beating person 2, while hardly being touched, and person 1, again its unclear whether Ryu landed some well hits in or not.

Uh no, Ryu couldve landed well good hits, but Gouki could still be as he was, because think about it, after Ryu got up, it seemed like he was totally fine as well.


...... wtf? The entire pre-fight is a what if, there ARE NO solid facts. The only thing we know is Ryu lost, there is no facts to say Gouki totally pwned him.


PRECISELY, so for you to say Gouki is putting in very little effort against Ryu is wrong, he fights Ryu because he finds him worthy, he'll obviously put in effort against him, either that or he wouldn't fight him at all.

Because your using the "he threw him by his head so he mustve pwned him!" i'm saying it doesn't matter, Ryu lost, Gouki can throw him by any part of his body, it wouldnt make any difference.

... That makes no sense, if he doesn't want to fight people he can "own" then hew would just NOT fight the person, Gouki only fights people he finds worthy, thats a fact, if he didn't find a person worthy, he won't fight them, its not like he'll fight an unworthy opponent and just hold back. Again he only fights worthy opponents.

Wrong, i'd rather believe the video then you, sorry.


Cool, if you don't mind, do not post irrelevent things, i can draw a comic of Sephiroth blinking the world out of existance and post it but it wouldnt matter, so back on topic, nothing suggests that Shungokusatsu is instant.


Well if we look at his other supers, they require a chargeup, i don't see why this one would be any different.

Either that, or he caught him offguard.


Even so, it still looks further then a simple 100m, a person standing 100m away from me i can still see there hands, etc. even if i take a picture of that person and put it on my comp, it still wouldnt look like a small dot.
But anyway, he still travelled that distance in about 1/5th of a second which is far faster then anything we've seen from Gouki

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, i give explanations why. They aint very good ones, IMO.


Originally posted by Terryc250
Uh no, when have i stated they'd mop the floor with ANYONE they fight? Sephiroth > Gouki, Sephiroth was a planetary threat, he has stopped a power that were capable of destroying everything on the planet, he took control over the source of life,magic,energy,power, Sephiroth was stated above beings like Omega WEAPON, Chaos, Minerva, he was even capable of transforming the entire planet into his vessel, Gouki hasn't came close to this kind of power, or demonstrated that kind of power.

Dude, Seph has NO FEATS that can match Akuma. Seph was a threat to HIS planet. Half the shit that exist in FF7 aint in SF. Seph thinks he's gonna come to the SF Earth and try that same shit he'll soon find out that there is NO Life stream and that there will be more than just Cloud to deal wit.


he was even capable of transforming the entire planet into his vessel, Gouki hasn't came close to this kind of power, or demonstrated that kind of power. That's HIS planet, that shit wont work nor will it even happen on a regular Earth wit no "magical FF7 powers". Also, Seph was gonna do all that shit over time AND that in no way displays fightin power. It was clearly shown that Seph can be stopped from doing all that "blazze". Wit a man and big sword.

I would like to see Seph split a mountain wit his hands...AYERS PHUCKIN ROCK, wit his hands. I love to see Seph destroy an island wit a single regular well placed punch and then do all that while still not at full power. I want Seph to do actual feats.

This...


he was even capable of transforming the entire planet into his vessel, Gouki hasn't came close to this kind of power, or demonstrated that kind of power.

...doesn't prove he's fast, or that he's strong, or that he's intelligent...

but o'course what I posted means nothin to you and some how, some way Seph will still beat Akuma even though all his showins show that it aint likely, but some how some way Seph is just better in ALL aspects just cuz he's Sephiroth, "The ultimate VG villain".Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
so, you want me to take you seriously? That's a question that you will have to search deep with in you self to find the ansewer...

Originally posted by Terryc250
Uh no, when have i stated they'd mop the floor with ANYONE they fight?Dude, you said Seph would beat Jedah, Kain and Demitri for god sakes. He'll you didn't even admit to Seph gettin steamrolled by Pyron and now Akuma. Wit all of that what do to expect me to think?

Stop acting like Seph wasn't putting effort in fighting Cloud. If he was so superior to Cloud he wouldn't have gotten beaten by him (twice). You don't just let yourself be killed (Cloud whooped that ass), at least we know Akuma isn't fighting at full power and actually survives each encounter against Ryu.

Originally posted by dvampire
Stop acting like Seph wasn't putting effort in fighting Cloud. If he was so superior to Cloud he wouldn't have gotten beaten by him (twice). You don't just let yourself be killed (Cloud whooped that ass), at least we know Akuma isn't fighting at full power and actually survives each encounter against Ryu.
Well, to be honest, Cloud beating Sephiroth is an enormous piece of PIS.

Everyone here that's remotely into the Final Fantasies, namely VII, knows that Sephiroth has not even shown a fraction of his power and he's able to match Cloud with that, despite what you may think from watching the movies/playing the games.

Even in the AC fight, you could see that he didn't put too much effort into it at all, maybe some here and there, towards the end, but he pretty much dominated that entire fight.

The guys responsible for AC stated that Sephiroth put no effort at all. He was pretty much mocking Cloud throughout the entire fight. They made Cloud fight Kadaj without any signs of trouble in order to show just how vastly superior Sephiroth was when we see Cloud giving his all and fail up until PISslash.

Yeah...I still don't believe that. The guy died three times by Cloud. You're trying to tell me he toyed with Cloud and let himself get killed three times? It's bull. It's okay to mock and toy around, but normally when you're about to die, all playing should stop. Seph wasn't playing around I think, he just lost straight up.

Was Sephiroth toying with Cloud?

Definately. But fact is, once Cloud pulled out the Omnislash V.5, Sephiroth could do nothing to escape it.

Originally posted by dvampire
Yeah...I still don't believe that. The guy died three times by Cloud. You're trying to tell me he toyed with Cloud and let himself get killed three times? It's bull. It's okay to mock and toy around, but normally when you're about to die, all playing should stop. Seph wasn't playing around I think, he just lost straight up.
If you look at it this way, Sephiroth could have very messily ended the fight right then and there by stabbing Cloud through the head, instead of through the shoulder.

Originally posted by Terryc250
.. The reason we started debating this whole entire thing is because you said Gouki never exerted himself, then i said he was clearly giving effort against Ryu, then you replied saying
"What constitutes him giving effort anyways? He stopped 'messing' around with Ryu, but only after his mistake from being far too careless.
And I still stand by that - he never exerted himself, i.e. gave serious effort. He gave some - just was not going full-out with Ryu.
Originally posted by Terryc250
You don't have anything to compare it with, so I'm not even sure why you say he's "clearly" giving effort after Ryu gets up. In retrospect, this is the exact same effort that Sephiroth treated Cloud with in FF: AC"
Because it needs no comparison. You only have to consider what he did in the fight after itself to realise that he was giving some effort.

He wouldn't have used a Tenma Gou Zankuukou on Ryu if he hadn't been giving effort. Remember, it's a level 2 super; judging from its relative power compared to his other supers - I say that yes, he was giving some effort after.
Originally posted by Terryc250
IMO, its not the same treatment Sephiroth was giving Cloud, Sephiroth didn't use a single one of his powers, even against Genesis and Angeal he used a blade beam, he did nothing but taunt Cloud.
That's not what I'm trying to get at here at all - I told you that I brought up the comparison just for a likeliness in motive (inferior from superior), not the scale of the actual treatment itself.

Gouki being above Ryu is not nearly the same scale as Sephiroth being above Cloud.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Non-canon is non-canon, If i started claiming Ryu can punch through planets, then someone told me to "Provide Evidence" on that, then i posted a personal-drawn comic of Ryu punching through mars, itll just be ridiculous, its the same as you claiming shungokusatsu is instant, then posting non-canon material, again, non-canon is non-canon and cannot be used as evidence.
Once again, you asked for me to "show" you when it's been done - not specifying canon or non-canon sources, so technically you're still just beating a dead horse here, as far as I am concerned.

And I "showed" you.

As you see, I knew it was non-canon and chose to point it out as such was appropriate; your repeated falling back on it is essentially pointless, a waste of an argument considering I had already said so earlier.

Your example of a self-drawn comic is completely off-the-wall altogether; considering that the other references are actual published work, and thus are approved by Capcom and their relevant associates, they at least have credibility in that department even if they are not considered to be canon. Don't bring that up again, it's a silly example.
Originally posted by Terryc250
In every game its really fast, once you land it, he grabs and the screen flashes, and the 15 hits are so fast its basically instant, once the screen appears again, the person is already on the ground, the slower part IS BEFORE the grab(having to move up to the opponent which already takes away the "instant", which is why the "instant" shouldnt be a decription of the pre-grab.
"Instant", I would say, describes the execution, as you can see from the name.

Depiction (or lack thereof) of the moves in the games themselves are lacking - since we've been discussing his use of the Tenma Gou Zankuukou let's use that as a comparison. In the anime trailer you see him firing them all from one hand and they're moving a LOT faster than they do in the game. They're also apparently fired off faster too, enough to make one big explosion instead of many little ones. Also, look how outrageously long it takes Ryu to power up his Shinkuu Hadouken, then compare that to SF4, or any other SF for that matter. Only Ken's Shinryuken in that video appeared identical to in-game.

Basically what I'm saying here is that the "official" recognization of the actual execution of Supers themselves are likely to differ, either radically or not at all, so we have no way of knowing what the Shungokusatsu's speed during the actual execution of the move, when he's dragging his victims through all the hells. The actual "approach" of the move, from what canon material suggests, is instant.

Your use of game mechanics here are lacking credibility when you refer to the "having to move up to the opponent" (I assume you refer to the ashura look-alike move). It's a balancing mechanic. Do you really think that Akuma would have been considered a "balanced" character if he could, upon reaching a Lvl.3 charge, instantly wipe out his opponent with a simple 5-button combination?

The reason why this move is so ridiculously easy to avoid in-game is because it's so overpowered in the first place in terms of damage done. You don't see any of the high-teir Street Fighter players using it in a match successfully. Hsien Chang once (overconfidently, I might add) attempted it against Umehara and lost when he had the advantage beforehand. It can be stopped with a well-timed LP.

I could go into a whole new rant about how stupid this move is to attempt to use in any competent SF match, but I'll just cut it off here.
Originally posted by Terryc250
So the only super we actually witness is the "Tenma Gou Zankuu-kouu" which did require a small charge, so we really cannot say that his other supers don't require any.
I have to say that I find your heavy reliance on video evidence a little unsightful, Terry. What happened to all the other points I brought up?

Even if they required a charge, it definitely is not significant enough to present an opening in the midst of combat.


Originally posted by Terryc250
I know what you mean, but i'm saying if you took a picture of someone standing 100m away, made it junk quality, and made it at like 600x400, you'd still beable to make out hands, etc. and they wouldn't be just a dot.
No, they'd be a blur.

why toy around with a man who surprised you last time and nearly killed you only to start toying around, get surprised and get killed permanently?

Originally posted by Sado22
why toy around with a man who surprised you last time and nearly killed you only to start toying around, get surprised and get killed permanently? Here is the thing, only two things could have happened in AC.

Seph could not avoid the Omnislash V.5.

Seph is an idiot who doesn't know how to dodge attacks.

Pick one.

3. Seph was paid to lose

Seph is an idiot.

End of story.

Originally posted by DarkC
And I still stand by that - he never exerted himself, i.e. gave serious effort. He gave some - just was not going full-out with Ryu.

Because it needs no comparison. You only have to consider what he did in the fight after itself to realise that he was giving some effort.

He wouldn't have used a Tenma Gou Zankuukou on Ryu if he hadn't been giving effort. Remember, it's a level 2 super; judging from its relative power compared to his other supers - I say that yes, he was giving some effort after.

That's not what I'm trying to get at here at all - I told you that I brought up the comparison just for a likeliness in motive (inferior from superior), not the scale of the actual treatment itself.

Gouki being above Ryu is not nearly the same scale as Sephiroth being above Cloud.

Alright then we can agree that Gouki does put in effort when fighting Ryu.


Well normally when someone asks you to show you something, you don't normally post non-canon things, if you asked me "Show me Sephiroth destroying a planet" then i posted a drawing of him destroying a planet, it'd be a bit ridiculous don't you think?


Capcom approves of them using their characters, its just as silly as Marvel making that Mech-Gouki, or Ryu going up against Galactus, none of their things should be used as how the real character does anything, just don't bring non-canon things into debates period.



Alright lets get this straight, there is no way to judge how it works in actual canon, BUT it does work slightly similar, i never said it works exactly. We've never seen it in canon, so you can't say "from canon material its instant". He landed it on Vega from getting him from behind, if its so instant why doesnt he just do it at the start of the battle with Gen or Gouken? Why does he wait near the end of the battle while they're fatigued?



They'd be a blur, but you'd still be able to make out whats the head, etc, they wouldn't just be a dot.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Alright then we can agree that Gouki does put in effort when fighting Ryu.
Yes - just not significantly.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Well normally when someone asks you to show you something, you don't normally post non-canon things, if you asked me "Show me Sephiroth destroying a planet" then i posted a drawing of him destroying a planet, it'd be a bit ridiculous don't you think?
Just a "drawing"?

You have to be specific here - just some random drawing by a person, yes; if it's Square-Enix official art no. Technically anything fan-art is far from canon.

Also, you have to think about who was behind the source and how they got any idea at all behind their depiction of the moves. Both visual representatives of the Shungokusatsu I just posted are absolutely nothing like the games, so where on Earth would the artists/animators have got them from? Capcom, of course - they don't just randomly make something up.

Basically I posted evidence that was non-canon, but still with credibility in its references. Canonity isn't everything, Terry, it just means that it isn't officially accepted - it doesn't mean that it's "wrong".
Originally posted by Terryc250
Capcom approves of them using their characters, its just as silly as Marvel making that Mech-Gouki, or Ryu going up against Galactus, none of their things should be used as how the real character does anything, just don't bring non-canon things into debates period.
These 'crossovers' are considered noncanon very largely because of the plot; neither Capcom nor SNK wanted people in uproar over conflicts that their characters were in, during the plot of the games. It doesn't mean that absolutely everything in that game is factually wrong, especially the technicalities.

The crossover games were regarded as (besides an enormous chunk of cash in their wallet) an exciting chance for both companies to try and put their most well-known characters in a balanced fighting game, and it worked quite well. What it is, is NOT a story, which is why you see ridiculous things happening. It's just the creators being creative.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Alright lets get this straight, there is no way to judge how it works in actual canon, BUT it does work slightly similar, i never said it works exactly. We've never seen it in canon, so you can't say "from canon material its instant".
No, that's because there's no visuals to present it under your nose.

Once again, you rely far too heavily on visual/video evidence, and seem to disregard the other canon non-visual evidence I present. Think outside the box.
Originally posted by Terryc250
He landed it on Vega from getting him from behind, if its so instant why doesnt he just do it at the start of the battle with Gen or Gouken? Why does he wait near the end of the battle while they're fatigued?
Why would he end the fight before it got started?

He's like Ryu, he lives for fights, which is why he actually fought Gouken and Gen.
Unlike Ryu, he has no conscience due to his total immersion in Satsui no Hadou.
Originally posted by Terryc250
They'd be a blur, but you'd still be able to make out whats the head, etc, they wouldn't just be a dot.
Maybe, but as I mentioned earlier you'd very likely need 20/20 vision to do that.

Originally posted by DarkC
Just a "drawing"?

You have to be specific here - just some random drawing by a person, yes; if it's Square-Enix official art no. Technically anything fan-art is far from canon.

Also, you have to think about who was behind the source and how they got any idea at all behind their depiction of the moves. Both visual representatives of the Shungokusatsu I just posted are absolutely nothing like the games, so where on Earth would the artists/animators have got them from? Capcom, of course - they don't just randomly make something up.

Basically I posted evidence that was non-canon, but still with credibility in its references. Canonity isn't everything, Terry, it just means that it isn't officially accepted - it doesn't mean that it's "wrong".

These 'crossovers' are considered noncanon very largely because of the plot; neither Capcom nor SNK wanted people in uproar over conflicts that their characters were in, during the plot of the games. It doesn't mean that absolutely everything in that game is factually wrong, especially the technicalities.

The crossover games were regarded as (besides an enormous chunk of cash in their wallet) an exciting chance for both companies to try and put their most well-known characters in a balanced fighting game, and it worked quite well. What it is, is NOT a story, which is why you see ridiculous things happening. It's just the creators being creative.

Non-canon is non-canon theres no such thing as "Non-canon but almost canon" its either canon, or non-canon, one can be used in debates to prove a point, the other cannot.

And the non-canon shun goku satsu you've posted we don't even get to see the entire thing, but we do see that once he lands it, it is almost like instant death.

I know it doesn't mean 100% wrong, but it doesn't mean right either, so it proves no point, and we're back where we started, thats why i say posting non-canon things are pointless.


If it was logically reasonable i would accept it, but the things you present have far too many holes in it.

Why did he give Vega a shungokusatsu right away from behind then? He lives by the code of warrior, he should go all-out against them.

If he had a chance to use it, he probably would have, while they were all fully healthy and had their guard up, thats most likely why he didn't use it at the time.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Non-canon is non-canon theres no such thing as "Non-canon but almost canon" its either canon, or non-canon, one can be used in debates to prove a point, the other cannot.
I never said it was, I was explaining why I was using it in the first place even if I knew it was non-canon.

Keep up.
Originally posted by Terryc250
And the non-canon shun goku satsu you've posted we don't even get to see the entire thing, but we do see that once he lands it, it is almost like instant death.
No, we don't, which is why I said it "suggests" that the execution is instant, you have to consider internal and external influences. Rugal was fully aware during that and he still got owned by it.
Originally posted by Terryc250
If it was logically reasonable i would accept it, but the things you present have far too many holes in it.
Most of what I say to you seems to have "holes" in it because it's not explained enough, and there's nothing I can do about that. So far this entire debate you haven't had much proper arguments, outside of attempting to point out where I'm wrong. In the end they still suggest instant-cast Shungokusatsu.

You can't deny official and confirmed statements, such as the Gouken and Gen fights.
Originally posted by Terryc250
I know it doesn't mean 100% wrong, but it doesn't mean right either, so it proves no point, and we're back where we started, thats why i say posting non-canon things are pointless.
Once more, you requested that I "show" you what Shungokusatsu is supposed to look like outside of gameplay, I obliged. I wouldn't have bothered if you had told me to "explain" or something otherwise.

Don't make me go over this again. Despite what you may seem, pointing out that something is non-canon doesn't count as a real argument, especially if I've already done it. Repeatedly.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Why did he give Vega a shungokusatsu right away from behind then? He lives by the code of warrior, he should go all-out against them.
How would I know? That's an anomaly of Capcom.

Both the moral code of Gouki and how Bison died in SF2 ARE official statements. They just happen to be
Originally posted by Terryc250
If he had a chance to use it, he probably would have, while they were all fully healthy and had their guard up, thats most likely why he didn't use it at the time.
Considering that HE was the one apparently down and out when Gouken beat him down, he was in no position to pull off a successful Shungokusatsu.

Also I found this cccount from Street Fighter Zero 2:

Originally posted by DarkC
I never said it was, I was explaining why I was using it in the first place even if I knew it was non-canon.

Keep up.
Is this a debate? Yes, are non-canon things supposed to be used in debates? No, so i don't know why you posted it non-canon things in the first place. Please don't reply "Well you didn't say im not allowed to post non-canon things!" I shouldn't have to, again, this is a debate, if i asked you to show me something, im obviously asking you to show me for "evidence" non-canon things are not evidence.

Understand.


Who cares, its non-canon. It's not even the real incarnation of Gouki in the first place, and besides that, Rugal getting caught with it =/= it being instant.


.. nothing suggests Shungokusatsu being instant, him being able to land it on some people does not = it being instant, Goku can land Kamehamehas against people plenty of times, it doesnt mean its instant.


What statements? That Gouki landed it on them? Again landing it doesnt = it being instant, the fact that Gouki had to wear them down before using it suggests that its not.


Yes i requested that you show me shungokusatsu, normally a person would actually show me it, you didn't though, you posted pointless non-canon things which you shouldn't have, instead you should've just said "Shungokustasu has never been shown outside of gameplay"


I'ev asked you this already but can you show me with quotes from a reliable source a description of how Gouken and Gouki's fight went?


Not sure what point you're trying to make here, we both already know Gouki and Gouken fought, and Gouki came out the winner via shungokustasu

Originally posted by Terryc250
Is this a debate? Yes, are non-canon things supposed to be used in debates? No, so i don't know why you posted it non-canon things in the first place.
I posted them because, again, they were the only sources of visual examples of Gouki performing Shungokusatsu displayed anywhere, with a bit of background. I shouldn't have to keep reminding you this, so pay attention for once.

I've already justified my reasoning for bringing them up, despite their non-canonity, you're simply continuing to insist on using that non-canon tirade, over and over again. You did not specify what evidence you wanted, aside from it being a visual example, so you are in no grounds at all to call me out on it, especially considering that I clearly pointed out in my original post that they were non-canon.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Please don't reply "Well you didn't say im not allowed to post non-canon things!" I shouldn't have to, again, this is a debate, if i asked you to show me something, im obviously asking you to show me for "evidence" non-canon things are not evidence.
I didn't, and I never said that anywhere so try not to pretend that something happened when it obviously didn't. Thanks.

Read above.

I posted it because they were the only visuals I could find. Why do you think I bothered to mention that it was non canon in the first place? They were to assert their state as stated, but not official - in other words, to prevent you from immediately replying with "They're non-canon", which you did anyway. It's like trying to counter water with water, just ridiculous.

I will end this part of the debate right here, considering how terribly unproductive you're being with it:

You have had absolutely nothing new to add.
-You continue failing to understand basic points, despite me attempting to take baby steps to make them simpler.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Who cares, its non-canon. It's not even the real incarnation of Gouki in the first place, and besides that, Rugal getting caught with it =/= it being instant.
There you go again.
Originally posted by Terryc250
.. nothing suggests Shungokusatsu being instant, him being able to land it on some people does not = it being instant, Goku can land Kamehamehas against people plenty of times, it doesnt mean its instant.

What statements? That Gouki landed it on them? Again landing it doesnt = it being instant, the fact that Gouki had to wear them down before using it suggests that its not.
Once more, read my posts properly. I'm seeing less and less to do with what I say, and more of an obsession to keep on posting. It's part of the reason why right now, you're being highly unproductive to this debate. Stop.

It's not being able to land them that counts; it's the state that Gouki's opponent is in, or when in comparison to the state of Gouki's opponent. If Rugal was fully aware and facing his opponent, then do you really think that he would have let such a slow (according to you) move hit him, especially from where they were standing?

If I predict correctly, your next post in relation to what I just said will simply consist of dismissing this entire paragraph that I just wrote with "Well it's non-canon, so what you just said is moot".


Something along those lines, anyway.

But yeah, Gouki was beaten by Gouken, and he still managed to pull off a Shungokusatsu on his brother.

--

One more thing, the main reason why Goku was able to land such a move as a Kamehameha in a real battle was because the opponent was either strong enough to take it or counter it with another beam (etc), stupid enough to attempt to take it, or because he was able to land it using his nifty teleport move (on Perfect Cell, and Pikkon, beating them both).

By a matter of coincedence, it just so happens to be called the "instant" transmission, lol.

But in short, your DBZ analogy was very poorly thought out.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Yes i requested that you show me shungokusatsu, normally a person would actually show me it, you didn't though, you posted pointless non-canon things which you shouldn't have, instead you should've just said "Shungokustasu has never been shown outside of gameplay"
Right now you've sunk to the point where you're ranting, and you're taking what I said completely out of their context (see above) to suit your own needs, simply because of your obsession to continue to reply. It's disappointing to say the least.

So me showing you materia that I myself asserted to be non-canon translates to "not showing you at all", and that I should have just said that. You're altering logic now in an attempt to form an argument, which is outrageous.

It was to show you what Capcom thought what the Shungokusatsu MIGHT look like, but they're still unsure - hence, it being non-canon.
Originally posted by Terryc250
I'ev asked you this already but can you show me with quotes from a reliable source a description of how Gouken and Gouki's fight went?
I just did, that came from an exerpt from a Street Fighter Zero 2 document.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Not sure what point you're trying to make here, we both already know Gouki and Gouken fought, and Gouki came out the winner via shungokustasu
This right here is proof that you haven't been bothering to read my posts properly. If you had, you would not have brought Gouken up because he does not pertain to his fight - or you thought that Gouken was Gouki's master. Neither option makes you look good, Terry.


I brought that up because as you can see, after the move was executed it apparently took several HOURS for the move to finish.

Here it is again, in its proper context.

----
"The forbidden move was done. He selected Master Goutetsu as his opponent. As there was about to be a fight to the death, the opponent had no deficiencies.

"...arm yourself now!!!"

The spirit kept secretly inside exploded, the cells of Gouki's entire body rose in sound with a resonating sensation.....several hours later, Gouki's entire body in blood returned a scarlet hue, as he moved and saw the master's corpse."
----



(And yes, it is officially confirmed that Goutetsu WAS killed by a Shungokusatsu, so that was the move being described)

So as you can see, the course of the move itself is far from instant, so it basically is just a "hell murder". Considering now the translation of the move, there's no other reason to make it "instant hell murder" other than the startup of the move itself.



Considering I have negated both your arguments to the point of irrefutability, I fully anticipate your next reply to be filled with peripheral noise.

Originally posted by DarkC
I posted them because, again, they were the only sources of visual examples of Gouki performing Shungokusatsu displayed anywhere, with a bit of background. I shouldn't have to keep reminding you this, so pay attention for once.

I've already justified my reasoning for bringing them up, despite their non-canonity, you're simply continuing to insist on using that non-canon tirade, over and over again. You did not specify what evidence you wanted, aside from it being a visual example, so you are in no grounds at all to call me out on it, especially considering that I clearly pointed out in my original post that they were non-canon.
No, YOU pay attention, like i said, posting non-canon crap is retarded, even for "visual example" i can post of drawing of Sephiroth blowing up worlds, non-canon is non-canon and should NOT be brought up in debates even for "visual example" no one cares about non-canon crap, it proves no point, and are pointless to be brought up in debates, let alone even allowed to, if you knew they were non-canon then you shouldn't have posted them in the first place, i'm just letting you know that non-canon things hold no basis for claims, or grounds, or points, or anything like that, so pay attention and stop trying to defend non-canon things.


Uh yes you basically said that earlier:

"Once again, you asked for me to "show" you when it's been done - not specifying canon or non-canon sources, so technically you're still just beating a dead horse here, as far as I am concerned.

And I "showed" you."


It doesn't matter, if you knew it was non-canon you shouldn't have posted it because it holds no weight in this debate, the fact that you're trying to make it hold some weight is ridiculous.

Its the same as trying to amp Gouki's strength in a debate from that comic where he punched and blew up that meteor twice the size of earth, i'd post it if i could find it.

But either way, non-canon is non-canon and shouldn't be taken for anything.


No, i think you're just getting frustrated because you failing to prove anything at all

-You're trying to prove something with non-canon material (ridiculous)
-You come up with ridiculous claims that shungokusatsu is instantaneous with no proof or even logical reference.
-You tried to claim Gouki's effort against Ryu was the "exact same effort" Sephiroth treated Cloud with, which is wrong.
-You tried to claim Gouki can teleport from chinese urban location to the great wall in a couple seconds which failed
-You tried to claim Sephiroth took several seconds to warp into the entrance which failed


Sorrry but you've been failing this entire debate.


I've asked you this i'm not sure how many times now, i'm not sure if you're purposely avoiding the question or whatnot, but you said Gouki was beaten by Gouken, then he pulled off shungokusatsu, again PLEASE PROVIDE THE QUOTE ON HOW THE FIGHT WENT FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE <--- Read and reply please.


No, a lot of the times they just have their eyes open stupid and took it, or he shot it and they couldn't avoid it in time,

Well see:
Instant Transmission
Transmit = to send or forward, as to a recipient or destination; dispatch; convey.

Hence, Instantly send to a destination

Instant Transmission.

It describes the move perfectly.




No i'm stating out the truth, i originally asked you to show me "proof", non-canon things are not "proof"

Yes, unless it has been proven to be canon, they're non-canon, or else we'd have people like Zack doing this to opponents:
z8LiDtG42os

Or Cloud busting out Knights of the round on everyone

"Might" doesn't help an arguments, "might" is where we start at, everyone is a possibility, Sephiroth MIGHT beable to bust a planet, but him doing it in Kingdom Hearts wouldn't help a debate at all if the debate is with FF7 Sephiroth.



This is also from SFZ2

Shungokusatsu

Master Goutetsu spoke of a forbidden technique, "shungokusatsu." With this move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment of unparalleled intensity. That is, control utilized by "satsui no hadou", was said to run wildly until that life's very end.
Gouki, pronouncing all ancestors "fools" for sealing this "shungokusatsu," selected his path to break that ban on his own.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moment

Moment: an indefinitely short period of time; instant

So it seems the description of "instant" in the name actually refers to what i've thought all along, the instant in "instant hell murder", actually refers to when the person is caught: "one's own life would be cut off in a moment of unparalleled intensity."


Thats the description from GOUKETSU himself, perhaps him AND the ancestors have never before experienced "Shun Goku Satsu" before and named it incorrectly, Gouketsu thought it only took a "moment", maybe the ancestors did too thus they put the "instant" in the name. Either way, Gouketsu and the ancestors thought it only took a "moment" and THEY were the ones who named it what it is.

The Shun Goku no Satsu is initiated by a grab. Which sends the opponent to hell. That's really all we know.

Were the pics you posted official art DarkC?

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Were the pics you posted official art DarkC?
You mean the one with Gouki and Gouken?


I remember seeing it SOMEWHERE, very likely the Udon comic, which is why I mentioned it as such and that it was non-canon.

For all I know, it could be official art, or it could not.

The UDON comics show the canon abilities of the SFers and DSers.

If it is official art, made by Capcom(or Capcom had UDON artists make it), why the hell can't it be used as evidence?

Not sure, but someone else said that the UDON comics were in general non-canon much earlier (like, a year ago), so I was under that mentality.

EDIT - I've only seen one super actually in the UDON comic, Ken's shinryuken, and that looked 100% accurate.


Take it up with Terry, if you like.

In terms of the storyline, they are not canon, but UDON directly stated that they show the character's very real personality and power attributes.

I think I mentioned that earlier too, the majority of the non-canon refers to the plots (which, a lot of the time are obviously ridiculous, Chun-Li being an honorary X-Men member? LUL).

Well you don't need to be a mutant to be an X-Man. Juggernaut anyone? 131

Originally posted by DarkC

A ridiculous example, considering a simple drawing is not only non-canon, it has no credibility, no references, no insider information. Why even bring that up?
Non-canon is NON-CANON, it doesn't matter where its from, if its non-canon, its infact, NON-CANON, unless you think Gouki can really blow up a meteor twice the size of earth.


Because well.. YOU DON'T, you don't see people bringing up non-canon materia in Clouds debate or Sephiroths debates, UNLESS ITS STATED BY THE CREATOR that Cloud gets all materia or whatever.


Sorry, non-canon things hold no weight, so its pointless.


Well first of all you don't even see them being performed so you can't say it resembles nothing like what we've known in gameplay, again we're debating canon Gouki, not non-canon Gouki, so whatever that incarnation of non-canon Gouki was able to do, whether its blow up a meteor twice the size of earth(from a non-canon comic or do 30 instantaneous mech shungokusatsu(non-canon mech gouki from Marvel vs Capcom) it doesnt matter.


Non-canon Gouki can do whatever he wants, Real Gouki is what matters. And no, you have not successfully proven anything.


Again, i don't care what non-canon Gouki from a game outside of Street Fighter is able to do, honestly stop bringing it up, i asked you for PROOF of STREET FIGHTER GOUKI, not some non-canon junk.


Read my original post properly, i asked for PROOF, proof as in Street Fighter Gouki, proof as in canon material, understand?


Yes i will, and i guarantee you its not "proof"


No you said "exact same effort" which is wrong, Gouki was clearly giving atleast 50% of his effort, while Sephiroth was far below that.


Its as ambiguous as having scene 1 of Gouki in America and then him teleport offscreen and then scene 2 saying "a week later" then having him in Japan, then claiming "its possible that Gouki teleported to Japan from America" its possible yes, but its unlikely since he's never done anything like that before.

Obsessed with it? This is the first time i brought it up after proving you wrong. I'm just simply pointing out where you have failed in this debate.

This entire debate we're having is attempting at getting PROOF out of your claims, it has nothing to do with me, or any other character.


.. You just gave me a description of of one of their previous fights not the one where Gouki gets him with shungokusatsu (which is what i asked for)

So basically you have no proof to claim that Gouken actually defeated Gouki, then Gouki got him with a shungokusatsu after he was defeated?



Well i asked for "proof" (if you've read properly) so if you don't mind, don't post nonsense, its a waste of both our times, the Gouki from Capcom vs games is not the actual Gouki, just as Mech Gouki from Marvel vs Capcom is not the real Gouki, just as Kingdom Hearts Sephiroth is not the real FF7 Sephiroth, so basically posting something from another character is meaningless to me.


Cool, next time i ask for proof, provide me proof of Street Fighter Gouki, not another incarnation of Gouki.



Umm i don't know if you've read what i said incorrectly or you're simply not understanding it but i'll try to explain it to you easier


1)The name Shungokusatsu (Created by the ancestors) Instant Hell Murder

DESCRIPTION OF THE ATTACK:

Master Goutetsu spoke of a forbidden technique, "shungokusatsu." With this move, it was said that one's own life would be cut off in a moment (INSTANT) of unparalleled intensity. That is, control utilized by "satsui no hadou", was said to run wildly until that life's very end.
Gouki, pronouncing all ancestors "fools" for sealing this "shungokusatsu," selected his path to break that ban on his own.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moment

Moment: an indefinitely short period of time; instant

So if you think about it, THE ANCESTORS who created the name SHUNGOKUSATSU described it as (when it lands) "one's own life would be cut off in a moment (INSTANT) of unparalleled intensity."

Right there you have proof that the name Instant Hell Murder, the INSTANT in the name refers to (when it lands) one's own life would be cut off in a moment (INSTANT) .

Apparently they were wrong, because they claimed that they would die in a MOMENT (instant), apparently they were wrong about the description and wrong about the name.

Right there you have proof that the ancestors THOUGHT once it lands the person would die in a moment.

Thus your argument fails.

Well once Gouki does the SGS, the screen turns black, then the opponent is dead. Only one person has ever survived it, Gen, and that was due to a special circumstance.

Yeah hes trying to prove that the "pre-grab" is instananeous, and that the "instant" in Instant Hell Murder is meant for the pre-grab, and i'm saying that the instant in instant hell murder, is meant for ONCE its landed its instant hell, hence "one's own life would be cut off in a moment (INSTANT) of unparalleled intensity."

The victim will be dead in a mere moment.

Wow ok, listen, I know that when shungokustasu lands it takes hours to complete


But listen, read and try to comprehend this:

The ancestors who gave the name "Shungokusatsu" (Instant Hell Murder) DESCRIBED the move as "one's own life would be cut off in a moment of unparalleled intensity"

The ancestors said it themselves that it would take a mere moment for ones life to be cut off (the person would be dead in an instant)

So the fact is, the ancestors were WRONG, the same ancestors who NAMED it shungokusatsu, no its not describing one of the hells, its describing the attack itself that is blantaly obvious.
Hence "With this move" and not "The last hell"