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Punisher vs Nightwing fight takes place in the alleys of Opal City who wins?

Nightwing probably but only just

6/ thanx to some cool dexterity feats

One of the better matches I've seen in this forum.

Nightwing wins BTW.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Nightwing probably but only just

6/ thanx to some cool dexterity feats

Nah Nightwing loses Punsiher can take him h2h and he has his guns. Frank has shot people faster than Nightwing.



Originally posted by occultdestroyer
One of the better matches I've seen in this forum.

Nightwing wins BTW.

He loses, he loses a big majority because he has guns.

Oh i didn't know guns were included, in that case SPITE

Wing gets sniped.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Oh i didn't know guns were included, in that case SPITE



innocent edit: when you say sniped you don't mean literially? Even if it was h2h I think its at least a split or 6/10 to Pun.

Not a literal sniping from a sniper rifle, in the CQ of the alley, he gets shot and then pwnt.

Punisher wouldn't shoot a costumed vigilante. He'd handicap himself and that's why I think he'd lose. Pretty much exactly why he loses to Daredevil.

Nightwing 6/10.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Punisher wouldn't shoot a costumed vigilante. He'd handicap himself and that's why I think he'd lose. Pretty much exactly why he loses to Daredevil.

Nightwing 6/10.

I think the OP wants us to assume both are going for the WIN no matter what..full abilities, and not based on "how he'd mormally act" maybe..

nightwing ftw, crazy acrobat skills= dodging bullets easy

Originally posted by Juk3n
I think the OP wants us to assume both are going for the WIN no matter what..full abilities, and not based on "how he'd mormally act" maybe.. I believe that characters still retain their personality for these fights unless bloodlust is on. Batman could always use a bat grenade to blow someone's head off, doesn't mean he will do it. Same applies to non-bloodlust KMC fights.

Nightwing is basically a Daredevil w/ the usual Bat-gadgets. Nightwing should take 6-7/10.

Daredevil has just faster reaction to bullets due to radar.

Originally posted by Juk3n
I think the OP wants us to assume both are going for the WIN no matter what..full abilities, and not based on "how he'd mormally act" maybe..

Yeah your right.



Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I believe that characters still retain their personality for these fights unless bloodlust is on. Batman could always use a bat grenade to blow someone's head off, doesn't mean he will do it. Same applies to non-bloodlust KMC fights.

Well ok I guess they're bloodlusted then.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah your right.





Well ok I guess they're bloodlusted then.

fantastic, then in that case NW gets shot then stomped

save the 1 time where Punisher might miss and..wait scratch that Pun unloads a full clip and Night night Nightwing!

Nightwing dodges bullets from highly trained assassins. Punisher is obviously a superb marksmen but he doesn't often fight opponents who've been commented as "one day surpassing Batman"

IMO Nightwing 7/10

Originally posted by Juk3n
fantastic, then in that case NW gets shot then stomped

save the 1 time where Punisher might miss and..wait scratch that Pun unloads a full clip and Night night Nightwing!

Boring.....I wanna hear some shit like NW is miles ahead in martial skill than frank is and hes going to dodge his bullets and kick his ass.

Originally posted by willRules
Nightwing dodges bullets from highly trained assassins. Punisher is obviously a superb marksmen but he doesn't often fight opponents who've been commented as "one day surpassing Batman"

IMO Nightwing 7/10

Thats more like it.

NW isn't better than Batman at the moment.

Frank doesnt usually fight people like NW but when he does he has shown on many ocassions to have done very well.

Frank has shot:
Captain America (not sure about the cirumstances but im getting the graphic novel)

Spiderman twice and pinned him with a knife.
Shot Daredevil and has collapsed a chimney on him using his gun. In one of there most recent fights theres a reasonable chance he could have shot DD after knocking him on the floor.

DD, Spiderman and Cap are faster than NW. Even if he dodges the bullets hes not beating him in h2h.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Boring.....I wanna hear some shit like NW is miles ahead in martial skill than frank is and hes going to dodge his bullets and kick his ass.




Originally posted by willRules
Nightwing dodges bullets from highly trained assassins. Punisher is obviously a superb marksmen but he doesn't often fight opponents who've been commented as "one day surpassing Batman"

IMO Nightwing 7/10

Originally posted by willRules


I edited my post.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
NW isn't better than Batman at the moment.

Never said he was. But Nightwing is possibly the greatest acrobat in the DCU at the moment. I was just reminding people of his status.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Frank has shot:
Captain America (not sure about the cirumstances but im getting the graphic novel)

I'm sure he has, and I'm sure it was a great story but If Cap can normally dodge shots from expert marksmen. If he can evade Bullseye, why not Frank? Anyway this is A>B>C logic which really shouldn't be used in vs matches.....

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Spiderman twice and pinned him with a knife.

Again A>B>C logic.....

If you're referring to the Cable car they fought in then that was P.I.S as Spidey should totally own Frank. Spidey vs Punisher shouldn't be a match up. Spidey could (If he wanted to) Decapitate Frank with a punch.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Shot Daredevil and has collapsed a chimney on him using his gun. In one of there most recent fights theres a reasonable chance he could have shot DD after knocking him on the floor.

Again with the A>B>C logic

In this instance Frank could beat DD, I agree. But DD has also beaten Frank, OFTEN In fact pretty much every issue of DD vs Punisher consisted of Frank getting his butt handed to him DD even beat Frank whilst attempting to get to a man who had been shot.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
DD, Spiderman and Cap are faster than NW. Even if he dodges the bullets hes not beating him in h2h.

1) Spider faster than NW? Definitely
Cap faster? Probably
DD faster? Your opinion.
2) Your using A>B>C logic again!!! That's no indication of why Punisher should win the majority of fights.

Originally posted by willRules
Never said he was. But Nightwing is possibly the greatest acrobat in the DCU at the moment. I was just reminding people of his status.

I'm sure he has, and I'm sure it was a great story but If Cap can normally dodge shots from expert marksmen. If he can evade Bullseye, why not Frank? Anyway this is A>B>C logic which really shouldn't be used in vs matches.....




Originally posted by willRules

Again A>B>C logic.....

If you're referring to the Cable car they fought in then that was P.I.S as Spidey should totally own Frank. Spidey vs Punisher shouldn't be a match up. Spidey could (If he wanted to) Decapitate Frank with a punch.

and the other two times were PIS as well?

Originally posted by willRules

Again with the A>B>C logic

In this instance Frank could beat DD, I agree. But DD has also beaten Frank, OFTEN In fact pretty much every issue of DD vs Punisher consisted of Frank getting his butt handed to him DD even beat Frank whilst attempting to get to a man who had been shot.

Frank has beaten DD often as well. DD was not kicking his ass in every fight inn DD vs Pun..in theres first fight DD ended up on his ass and the reason why he lost the fight you mentioned was because he was trying to save somebody else.... ...what happened in the last fight?

edit: Frank has beaten DD twice im not sure if MK is canon but some of DDs wins have cirumstances.



Originally posted by willRules

1) Spider faster than NW? Definitely
Cap faster? Probably
DD faster? Your opinion.
2) Your using A>B>C logic again!!! That's no indication of why Punisher should win the majority of fights.

Ok so what logic are you using to say that NW beats Frank 7/10? Please explain why NW wins.

My Reasoning is that Nightwing is faster, has dodged bullets from trained marksmen on numerous occasions and has superb fighting skills taught to him by Batman that he has developed. He outclasses Frank pretty much physically IMO with the possible exception of Frank's legendary endurance.

Frank is an amazing marksman but he isn't shooting the greatest acrobat in the DCU. I don't think Frank should really be able to shoot DD (Although it was cool when he did in Miller's run).

Don't get me wrong it won't be an easy fight, it's a brilliant match up but I think ultimately Nightwing has the edge in a couple of areas that tilt the scales in his favour.

Originally posted by willRules
My Reasoning is that Nightwing is faster, has dodged bullets from trained marksmen on numerous occasions and has superb fighting skills taught to him by Batman that he has developed.

That is ABC logic! How is telling me hes dodged bullets from expert marksmen and telling me hes been trained by Batman any different from me saying hes shooting NW because hes shot Spiderman.

Its the samething but my logic is better. So wait a sec Spiderman is faster than NW but because NW has dodged bullets from trained marksmen all of a sudden NW wins the majority. Im sorry but can you see the double standards?

At the end of the day you can't help using ABC logic to an extent all one can do is look at the people the characters have fought and compare abilities. If Frank had only shot one top tier then you would be right. Hell if character A had beaten lots of top tier fighters would you assume he would lose to second tier? At the end of the day Frank has shot people who are faster and at least comparable in training. To just fobb it off as ABC logic is unfair, especially when you have done so yourself.


Originally posted by willRules

He outclasses Frank pretty much physically IMO with the possible exception of Frank's legendary endurance.

So does Kraven The Hunter look what happened to him.

Originally posted by willRules


Frank is an amazing marksman but he isn't shooting the greatest acrobat in the DCU. I don't think Frank should really be able to shoot DD (Although it was cool when he did in Miller's run).

Wheres you proof? Telling me that NW has dodged expert marksmen before doesnt prove anything. Telling me thats hes been trained by Batman does not prove anything.

Not only did Frank shot DD as I mentioned he also dropped a chimney on him. Not only that Frank could have shot Winter Soldier as well. Winter Soldier had to back down because he didn't want his brains blown out. Now all of a sudden Franks not shooting him? Whats NW got that Spiderman, DD, Cap and Winter Solider don't?

Also saying that DD kicked Franks ass in DD vs Punisher is not entirely accurate. The first fight ended up with DD on his ass. How can you bring up a fight which Frank had with DD when he lost because he was trying to save somebody else, thats the whole reason why Frank lost that fight. Also the fights that DD has won have circumstances to them.

Originally posted by willRules

Don't get me wrong it won't be an easy fight, it's a brilliant match up but I think ultimately Nightwing has the edge in a couple of areas that tilt the scales in his favour.

No offence but you haven't proven anything. All you told me was that NW has dodged expert marksmen and hes been trained by Batman....serioulsy am I just supposed to just accept that and end of discusion? Serioulsy don't you even think that you could have at least exlained to me who these marksmen where and compared feats?

I edited my last post but forget it.

*bump*

Bump

I think Nightwing should take this in the end. I'm going with Grayson 6.5/10

Nightwing would win in a hand to hand fight
With weapons Nightwing would still win

To answer the above question, greater Marksman include

Deadshot
Deathstroke
Vigalante
Arsenal

Originally posted by batosaimsx7
Nightwing would win in a hand to hand fight
With weapons Nightwing would still win

I doubt it. Either way he loses.

Originally posted by batosaimsx7

To answer the above question, greater Marksman include

Deadshot
Deathstroke
Vigalante
Arsenal

Ok whats you're point?

The question is not if Nightwing can evade Castle's bullets.
Question is how often does Frank has a chance to shoot at him, since he will be KO'd/killed by batarang when Nightwing sneaks up on him.

Try and beat that.

Originally posted by Survivor19
The question is not if Nightwing can evade Castle's bullets.
Question is how often does Frank has a chance to shoot at him, since he will be KO'd/killed by batarang when Nightwing sneaks up on him.

Try and beat that.

They are facing each other when the fight starts.

H2H: Nightwing for a majority.

Weapons: Frank can take it.

hmmmm...one of the best matches i've seen here in awhile. I gotta say NW 6/10, maybe even seven, and only because I see this coming down to h2h and Frank is not on the level..although his durability is extremely high...the other 3 or 4 Dick gets shot.

Thats not unreasonable but I see him losing. Frank has been 'upgraded' and he has too much damage soak.

so this is "current" frank? with all the uber weapons? If thats the case then the match is one-sided and thus spite

Originally posted by Sin I AM
so this is "current" frank? with all the uber weapons? If thats the case then the match is one-sided and thus spite

I dont think he gets his uber weapons its hard to tell what is standard equipment we need mpore issues. However looking at the past War journal series and this one Punisher is a tougher opponent to beat.

So.... we have 2 changes to the opening post...just to make this close.....i say nightwing for the majority

I'm going with Nightwing too.

Nightwing takes it at least 8/10

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
Nightwing takes it at least 8/10

Bullshit.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Bullshit.

C'mon....is that the proper way to respond!.....man you have been riding the punisher for a while now.....they have a name for people like you...i think its...hmmmm fanboy?


Maybe he did not notice the 2 times you altered the threads stipulations?..if i had not...i would have given Nightwing 10/10

I don't think Frank can shoot him . Frank has damage soak but Nightwing even as a young Robin koed Blockbuster like a ***** plenty of times and the guy is bullet proof.

Originally posted by Raoul
H2H: Nightwing for a majority.

Weapons: Frank can take it.

I don't read a lot of Punisher at all. Curious as to why PZ thinks Punisher is better H2H than Nightwing, though.


If its in the Respect Thread, I guess I'll be forced to go look. lol

Originally posted by starlock
C'mon....is that the proper way to respond!

What can I say im not perfect, usually when im rude people deserve it. However ive noticed even when posters do deserve to be insulted you stick your nose in without even knowing whats going on. For the most part I tend to be polite, I mean what do you do scan the forum and what for me to be rude and pass judgement?


Hell I remember one time when I insulted Battlehammer and you said some shit like it made me look bad. Hell you've got some posters on this forum that are the most rudest obnoxious mother****ers but its like you just pop out of nowhere and want to start telling me how to behave.

Anyway im not even sure the guy would have been that offended.

Originally posted by starlock

.....man you have been riding the punisher for a while now.....they have a name for people like you...i think its...hmmmm fanboy?

Give me examples then.

Originally posted by starlock

Maybe he did not notice the 2 times you altered the threads stipulations?..if i had not...i would have given Nightwing 10/10

Wait whats going on. Are you trying to start some shit with me. First of all when did I do that? Secondly if I did so what?


Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't read a lot of Punisher at all. Curious as to why PZ thinks Punisher is better H2H than Nightwing, though.


Er I dont think I said that.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er I dont think I said that.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Nah Nightwing loses Punsiher can take him h2h
*shrug*

Originally posted by Enyalus
*shrug*

Ummm if you think about the post and read my other posts you can see that this does not neccesarily mean I think Punisher is better at h2h.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ummm if you think about the post and read my other posts you can see that this does not neccesarily mean I think Punisher is better at h2h.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Even if it was h2h I think its at least a split or 6/10 to Pun.
That was your very next post. And, I read all of the posts in this thread, not just yours.

I'm inclined to give Punisher the majority in this thread because of his weapons. I Just wanted to know why you seem to think he's better than NW H2H, which at least three of your posts in this thread suggest.

Ok does this help.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats not unreasonable but I see him losing. Frank has been 'upgraded' and he has too much damage soak.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok does this help.


Was just curious. Like I said, I don't follow Punisher much at all. I know he's very good H2H, I just wouldn't put him on NW's level. Damage soak helps, you're right.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Was just curious. Like I said, I don't follow Punisher much at all. I know he's very good H2H, I just wouldn't put him on NW's level. Damage soak helps, you're right.

Ok no prob. The thing is DD usually kicks Franks arse because Frank isnt as fast but if you look at there last fight DD was punching Frank in the face and he was laughing. Now consider the fact that Punisher has gotten faster in the PWJ series and this one and NWs going to have one hell of a time.

DD is arguably better than NW and if DD is going to have trouble putting him down NW aint going to do it against a faster Frank, hes going to really ahve to **** Frank up to put him down and also if things get rough Frank will start fighting dirty, hes not above biting.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
DD is arguably better than NW and if DD is going to have trouble putting him down NW aint going to do it against a faster Frank, hes going to really ahve to **** Frank up to put him down and also if things get rough Frank will start fighting dirty, hes not above biting.
I agree with all of that.

Coolness. So, Punisher might take 7/10 IMO.

As much as I wanna say that Frank shoots him down I don't see it happening. Not with the speed feats NW has.

Originally posted by SamZED
As much as I wanna say that Frank shoots him down I don't see it happening. Not with the speed feats NW has.
Dodging three bursts of HV point blank comes most immediately to mind, lol.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I agree with all of that.

Coolness. So, Punisher might take 7/10 IMO.

Yes that could defintely happen. Lets also mention he stalemated an enhanced martial arts expert who beat Black Panther, and that was after fighting superhumans and blacking out....



Originally posted by SamZED
As much as I wanna say that Frank shoots him down I don't see it happening. Not with the speed feats NW has.

Punisher has gotten alot faster.

It would end like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P35eZvHwDs8

Originally posted by iceman24567
I don't think Frank can shoot him . Frank has damage soak but Nightwing even as a young Robin koed Blockbuster like a ***** plenty of times and the guy is bullet proof.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Bullshit.


to you and others Is Frank using teflon coated bullets?

Nightwing wins h2h

Nightwing wins w/ weapons

Nightwing wins with no arms and no legs

Nightwing will always win.

man this place hasn't changed.
apparently if you disagree with people when they give no reasons why Nightwing can defeat Punisher in h2h you're a fanboy.

so I skim through this thread and I see all sorts of stuff about how Nightwing will win h2h because he's going to one day surpass Batman, he can dodge bullets, he's more acrobatic and that he has better feats. well, all this is good but Dicky has:
-not yet surpassed Bruce so lets just drop this one already
-he can dodge bullets but Frank has put down other people who can too
-he is more acrobatic but Frank has gone through more acrobatic dudes in the past and (the keyword) won
-better feats....is highly subjective. to me, a regular man well past his prime (Frank is in his late 50's) with no superpowers but sheer wilpower defeating dudes like DareDevil, Spiderman, Tombstone, Wolverine, Bullseye to name a few makes his feat much more impressive than dude whos practically grown up around legendary superheroes and lived with the best h2h fighter that DC has to offer.

with guns, this goes to Frank 7/10 (i'm being generous). Frank's shot DareDevil, Captain America, Wolverine and had repeatedly shown that he can shoot them whenever he wants to.
wihtout guns, Frank wins 6/10. the man's stalemated DareDevil in h2h combat, crippled Bullseye, held his own against Wolverine and Moonknight and even defeated Tombstone......all people who can very well give Batman himself a good time in a fight, let alone Nightwing

~Sado

Well Dick is Batman and he pwned Jason Todd to get the mantle and talk about damagae soak. Nightwing for the majority.

^ Jean Paul Valley was Batman once doesnt mean he was as good as Batman. Im not sure if Jasons damage soak is as good as Punishers.

Anyway I dont think NW hits harder than DD or Kraven so...

I never said he was as good. Jasons damage soak might not be as good be his h2h skills are closer to Nightwings level than Franks is. Like I said Nightwing has koed more durable people than Frank like Blockbuster. I dont see Frank getting more than 2 wins in h2h.

I dont even think that NW is better at h2h than Frank is hes just more acrobatic. Yeah you said he koed Blockbust when he was Robin but hasnt he failed to KO blockbuster when he got older?

Didn't Frank admit that he cant beat Bucky? And NW>Bucky. Meh..thats a stupid A>B>C logic but still.

Um he stated that Bucky would kill him if they fought they fought and it ended in a stalemate. Why is NW > Bucky?

who is more acrobatic than NW that Frank managed to beat?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
who is more acrobatic than NW that Frank managed to beat?

Well hes beaten DD, not sure if hes more acrobatic but hes at least on the same level.

hmmmm imo their not on the same level

I highly doubt you can prove NW is better at acrobatics than DD.

i know i cannot, im just basing this off my opinion of what I've seen both do in comics. IMO they are not equal, but that has nothing to do with this match. Even though DC and Marvel for all intensive purposes are anagalous, the power fluctuation between the two leans heavily in DCs favor. Their "streets" just seem on average stronger than their Marvel counterparts...I just dont think this will come down to bullets and acrbatic skills. h2h Dick wins imo nore often than not

How do you see NW winning this fight if DD had one hell of a time beating a 'downgraded' Frank.

what pre-tell is a down-graded Punisher?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
hmmmm imo their not on the same level
You think NW is more agile than DD?

Originally posted by Enyalus
You think NW is more agile than DD?

Can you prove to me that he is not?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
what pre-tell is a down-graded Punisher? Well if you look at DD vs Pun. DD had the advantage in most of the fights because he was faster. Punisher is alot faster now.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Can you prove to me that he is not?
No...but, I'm pretty sure they're around the same level. Certainly NW isn't more agile.

Originally posted by Enyalus
No...but, I'm pretty sure they're around the same level. Certainly NW isn't more agile.

Well, I believe he is. Not by a huge amount, but marginally better imo.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Can you prove to me that he is not?

Well, Matt's equilibrium is on par with Spider-Man...

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Well, I believe he is. Not by a huge amount, but marginally better imo.
You're letting your hormones blind you, Sin.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Well, I believe he is. Not by a huge amount, but marginally better imo.

You sure thats not because you like DC street better?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Well, Matt's equilibrium is on par with Spider-Man...

NW is the best in the DCU...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Um he stated that Bucky would kill him if they fought they fought and it ended in a stalemate. Why is NW > Bucky?
When did they fight? I only remember that little fight (i wouldn't even call it a fight) after Cap's death. And I remember that Frank said that Bucky could kill him if they really fought h2h and he also said that Bucky's a retard if he thinks that Frank is affraid of him. That's how I remember it. And NW>Bucky because of the feats. I mean like being surrounded in a ROOM by a dozen soldiers with AKs and beating the crap outta them with his bare hands.

Originally posted by SamZED
When did they fight? I only remember that little fight (i wouldn't even call it a fight) after Cap's death. And I remember that Frank said that Bucky could kill him if they really fought h2h and he also said that Bucky's a retard if he thinks that Frank is affraid of him. That's how I remember it.

Frank put a gun to Buckys chin and he backed off from breaking his neck. Stalemate. It was in the lastest PWJ series scans should be in the respect thread cant be arsed to get them.

Originally posted by SamZED

And NW>Bucky because of the feats. I mean like being surrounded in a ROOM by a dozen soldiers with AKs and beating the crap outta them with his bare hands.

I really wouldnt be suprised if Bukcy could do the same. Howvere hes owned 2 of the Young Avenges and im pretty sure they could beat the crap out of a dozen soldiers.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You sure thats not because you like DC street better?

No, honestly I have more of a Marvel bias. I just think Dick is better

Originally posted by Sin I AM
No, honestly I have more of a Marvel bias. I just think Dick is better Im sorry but I know its really childish but.....

Anyway im thinking maybe you could give some solid reasons as to why you think hes better.

Then I'd have to go thru the respect thread again and drag over scans...and that bores me. I judge Marvel and DC characters based off what I myself have seen...in terms of H2H I think they are equal, actually DD should win more often that not...everything else even with the exception of Agility, which NW is better imo. I cant remember any particular moment in his history where I was like "HEY NIGHTWING IS MORE AGILE THAN MATT BASED OFF THIS SCENE!!" but over the years i've formed my own opinions and unless proven otherwise I shall stick with them

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Then I'd have to go thru the respect thread again and drag over scans...and that bores me. I judge Marvel and DC characters based off what I myself have seen...in terms of H2H I think they are equal, actually DD should win more often that not...everything else even with the exception of Agility, which NW is better imo. I cant remember any particular moment in his history where I was like "HEY NIGHTWING IS MORE AGILE THAN MATT BASED OFF THIS SCENE!!" but over the years i've formed my own opinions and unless proven otherwise I shall stick with them

Yeah anyway I guess it would be silly to get into feat war pointless and uneccesary.....zzzzz.

Anyway I was just asking.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah anyway I guess it would be silly to get into feat war pointless and uneccesary.....zzzzz.

Anyway I was just asking.

Its cool sweetie

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Frank put a gun to Buckys chin and he backed off from breaking his neck. Stalemate. It was in the lastest PWJ series scans should be in the respect thread cant be arsed to get them.
You really think Bucky was gonna break his neck? And yes Frank had to pull a gun, means he knew he cant fight Bucky h2h.

Originally posted by SamZED
You really think Bucky was gonna break his neck?

He really might have hes a trained killer and he was pissed off. Also if he really wanted im sure he knows ways in which he could apply enough pressure to KO him.


Originally posted by SamZED
And yes Frank had to pull a gun, means he knew he cant fight Bucky h2h.

Doesnt matter guns are allowed in this thread.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I just think Dick is better
I could tell that about you.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He really might have hes a trained killer and he was pissed off. Also if he really wanted im sure he knows ways in which he could apply enough pressure to KO him. I do not doubt that he's physically capable of that. Im just saying I dont think he would've.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Doesnt matter guns are allowed in this thread. Yeah, but didn't you say that Punisher can win this fight h2h too? And if Frank can't beat Bucky and NW is either = or even more likely > than Bucky he'd definitely beat Frank in h2h fight.

NW > Bucky

Originally posted by Mindset
NW > Bucky My point exactly.

Originally posted by SamZED
I do not doubt that he's physically capable of that. Im just saying I dont think he would've.

You could say the same thing for Punisher, at the end of the day they both had the opportunity.

Originally posted by SamZED

Yeah, but didn't you say that Punisher can win this fight h2h too? And if Frank can't beat Bucky and NW is either = or even more likely > than Bucky he'd definitely beat Frank in h2h fight.

Yeah but the problem with that is later on he stalemated a guy who beat Black Panther, and that was after fighting other superhumans and blacking out.

I could also point out that WS's bionic arm is what gave Frank the problem and NW doesnt have one of those.

Originally posted by SamZED
My point exactly.

Not sure if you can prove that.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Yeah but the problem with that is later on he stalemated a guy who beat Black Panther, and that was after fighting other superhumans and blacking out.

I could also point out that WS's bionic arm is what gave Frank the problem and NW doesnt have one of those. That's another example of the ABC logic i've used earlier and I already admitted its stupid. Feats is what counts at the end of the day. And feats say that NW is stronger faster has better reflexes and is a better fighter than Punisher. Frank barely survived an ambush of few ninjas with katanas. Dick beats dozen ninjas with ease and for fun. And im not even talking about his bullet dodging feats.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Not sure if you can prove that. Dont really have to. Feats speak for themselvs.

Originally posted by SamZED
That's another example of the ABC logic i've used earlier and I already admitted its stupid. Feats is what counts at the end of the day. And feats say that NW is stronger faster has better reflexes and is a better fighter than Punisher. Frank barely survived an ambush of few ninjas with katanas. Dick beats dozen ninjas with ease and for fun. And im not even talking about his bullet dodging feats.

1. Sometimes ABC logic isnt that bad, for example the opponents you can beat can indicate what tier you are in at least but not neccesarily who you will lose against in that tier.
2. Feats arent neccesarilay what counts thats what you're telling me. Every single opponent that Punisher has done well against has better feat than he does, so feats are not conclusive.

Originally posted by SamZED

Dont really have to. Feats speak for themselvs.

Well you gave one example and I matched it with something else. Anyway im not currently collecting Cap so I could missing some shit.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
It would end like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P35eZvHwDs8 Ditto. Or @least something like that. Has NW dodged full clips of automatic fire from anybody as skilled or more skilled than Frank?


I really don't think NW can handle everything Frank's gonna throw @him.

Originally posted by I-Drop
Ditto. Or @least something like that. Has NW dodged full clips of automatic fire from anybody as skilled or more skilled than Frank?


I really don't think NW can handle everything Frank's gonna throw @him. Yes

Who? Scans?

He's dodged more skilled marksman.

Originally posted by iceman24567
He's dodged more skilled marksman.

and Punishers taken on tougher opponents.

So has Nightwing

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and Punishers taken on tougher opponents. This has no relevance to what i was replying to by the way

Originally posted by iceman24567
So has Nightwing

Thats relative and depends.


Originally posted by iceman24567
This has no relevance to what i was replying to by the way

Yeah it does indirectly. Anyway hes shot faster individuals.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah it does indirectly. Whatever

Nightwing wins, he's just too skillfull a fighter, and if it gets close up and personal Frank gets stomped. If Night Thrasher can take the Punisher Nightwing can too.

Originally posted by Stoic
Nightwing wins, he's just too skillfull a fighter, and if it gets close up and personal Frank gets stomped. If Night Thrasher can take the Punisher Nightwing can too.

Well first of all is NW > NT? Pun is even better now than he was then.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats relative and depends.




No, it's not relative.

NW has taken on people better than Punisher, stronger than Punisher, and smarter than Punisher.

Hearsay. Where's the scans of NW evading a full clip of automatic fire from somebody on or above Frank's level?

Originally posted by I-Drop
Hearsay. Where's the scans of NW evading a full clip of automatic fire from somebody on or above Frank's level?

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_GrifterWC1.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_GrifterWC2.jpg

See? That's Dick in a Grifter-suit.

Originally posted by Mindset
No, it's not relative.

NW has taken on people better than Punisher, stronger than Punisher, and smarter than Punisher.

Originally posted by I-Drop
Hearsay. Where's the scans of NW evading a full clip of automatic fire from somebody on or above Frank's level? You act like Frank is Bullseye.

Originally posted by Mindset
You act like Frank is Bullseye.

No. I act like a guy who wants to see NW dodging machine gun fire from somebody @least on Frank's level. That's all. Frank isn't Bullseye, but he's a very skilled marksman.

Nightwing has dodged heat vision and Dr. Lights blasts Frank doesn't compare to that in the slightest.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanAmazo9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanAmazo10.jpg


Btw, NW doesn't get any gadgets for this fight?

Originally posted by Mindset
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanAmazo9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/BatmanAmazo10.jpg


Btw, NW doesn't get any gadgets for this fight?

NW also dodged three Superbat HV bursts from nearly point blank. And proceeded to hurt Superbat...something the entire JLA couldn't do.

Awesome scans!!! Still waiting on the ones w/the auto fire from a marksman on Frank's level.....if they exist

PIS

Originally posted by iceman24567
PIS
Perfectly Insane Skills?

I agree. Nightwing has them in spades.

Originally posted by I-Drop
Awesome scans!!! Still waiting on the ones w/the auto fire from a marksman on Frank's level.....if they exist You're right.

Bullets > heat vision

Silly me.

Multiple bullets in rapid succession = harder to dodge than 1 or 2 blasts of HV, right?

No

Why exactly?

HV > bullets

Can you give a better explanation?

HV >> bullets

or

bullets << HV

Originally posted by Mindset
HV >> bullets
Only when fired from Power Girl's nipples.

Heavy machine gun fire from Frank- Nightwing somehow dodges all of it and lands on top of the grenade Frank rolled accross the alley while Nightwing was doing his best impression of a gummy bear. Not dead yet, Nightwing is dazed, wounded and in no condition to play gummy bears anymore (which has wounded him on the inside more that any grenade ever could) Nightwing goes to confront frank hand to hand, the honerable way to fight! Frank throughs his machine gun aside as Nightwing approches, Nightwing swings at Frank, Frank ducks this as Nightwing is not in top form anymore, grabs his back up handgun from his boot and shoots Nightwing in the Knee caps, smashes him in the face with the pistol as he goes down.

Now comes the 'Choose your own adventure' part

If you want Nightwing to be shot through the skull after he is knocked out turn to page 87
If you want Frank to leave the unconcious Nightwing alone turn to page 53

NW has a bullet proof suit, btw.

even in a bullet proof suit you would go down from a bullet to the knee, the suit would stop the bullet from going through you but you'd still feel a lot of the impact and in a joint that size it would probably still break the bone .... unless the suit is extremely rigid in which case the bullet may just bounce off ... but I'm assuming it isn't as this would severly limit his gummy bearness

If this were not fiction you would be right, but it is.

Originally posted by mrcharlieo
Heavy machine gun fire from Frank- Nightwing somehow dodges all of it and lands on top of the grenade Frank rolled accross the alley while Nightwing was doing his best impression of a gummy bear. Not dead yet, Nightwing is dazed, wounded and in no condition to play gummy bears anymore (which has wounded him on the inside more that any grenade ever could) Nightwing goes to confront frank hand to hand, the honerable way to fight! Frank throughs his machine gun aside as Nightwing approches, Nightwing swings at Frank, Frank ducks this as Nightwing is not in top form anymore, grabs his back up handgun from his boot and shoots Nightwing in the Knee caps, smashes him in the face with the pistol as he goes down.

Now comes the 'Choose your own adventure' part

If you want Nightwing to be shot through the skull after he is knocked out turn to page 87
If you want Frank to leave the unconcious Nightwing alone turn to page 53 I like NW. Turn to page 53 please.

That's a fair call .... ok then revised story

Frank shot Nightwing in the knee to no effect! ... Nightwing uses his recently shot knee to kick the crap out of Frank, Frank is now dazzed and grabs a knife out of his other boot and randomly lashes out in front of him, Nightwing now very focused on Franks attack easily dodges each swipe with a step backwards, a brick that was loosened by the earlier grenade falls and hits Nightwing on the top of hit head. Momentarily dazed Nightwing recieves a Knife to the eye and brain from frank.

Any better?

NW is immune to knives.

lol ok I'm not buying that one

but if that was the case ... Nightwing gets Knifed in the eye! No effect!! Frank is amazed and impressed, so impressed he proceeds to remove the knife and stab himself in the eye to see if he is also immune ... He IS!!!! Frank decides to test how immune to attacks he is and just stands there as Nightwing pummels him .... Frank is not hurt ... Frank wonders why he's bothered with weapons all these years as he realises he IS a weapon!!! Frank them turns into cannon transformer style and blasts Nightwing!! Nightwing now with a gapping hole in his abdomen is amazed that he too isn't hurt! ... both look at eachother in a curious way and wonder if they are in a Deadpool comic

Then Deadpool comes in and kills them both.

Nightwing takes the majority in this. Nothing against Frank, but NW has consistantly held his own with and out right defeated people who are beyond Castle.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Nightwing takes the majority in this. Nothing against Frank, but NW has consistantly held his own with and out right defeated people who are beyond Castle.

Hasn't Frank done the same to people who are beyond NW?

That type of logic doesn't really fly.

True, the same could be said about Punisher, but I think that Grayson simply has beaten more and better oppenents than Punisher has. Nightwing deals and has dealt with more superpowered oppenents than Punisher has, and considering his feats and showings against said oppenents, someone like Frank is just going to be hard pressed to beat Nightwing.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
True, the same could be said about Punisher, but I think that Grayson simply has beaten more and better oppenents than Punisher has. Nightwing deals and has dealt with more superpowered oppenents than Punisher has, and considering his feats and showings against said oppenents, someone like Frank is just going to be hard pressed to beat Nightwing.

I might be inclined to agree, as soon as someone names me a super powered opponent that NW has handled that Frank couldn't. PISless i might add, i dont wanna hear NW handled because he had some magic anti spray.

On a standard random encounter, who could NW take that Frank couldn't? Who is an enemy that stretches NW limits and NW just about takes for 5.1/10. Now put Frank up against that same enemy how would he do. Random Encounter bare in mind.

Originally posted by Mindset
No, it's not relative.

NW has taken on people better than Punisher, stronger than Punisher,


Heres what I meant. Some opponents maybe stronger than Frank but may lack Franks speed and skill. Some characters may have energy manipulation powers but maybe too slow. US Agent is more 'powerful' than Captain America but would lose to him. Powerful is not neccesarily more dangerous.

Originally posted by Mindset
and smarter than Punisher.

Examples please.




Originally posted by iceman24567
Nightwing has dodged heat vision and Dr. Lights blasts Frank doesn't compare to that in the slightest.

Im not sure what your point is but im assuming you're refering to that weakened Amazo. Amazo was obvously depowered down to street level so that dont neccsarily mean a damn thing.

Dr Light may fire light but if hes not very accurate hes not as dangerous as a skilled person with a gun.

Originally posted by Enyalus
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_GrifterWC1.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_GrifterWC2.jpg

See? That's Dick in a Grifter-suit.

Who are they and why are they as accurate as Frank?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Nightwing deals and has dealt with more superpowered oppenents than Punisher has, and considering his feats and showings against said oppenents, someone like Frank is just going to be hard pressed to beat Nightwing.

Frank has fought loads of superhumans even when he was concentrating on gangsters he frequently ran into them and has had special appearances etc. Also the current and the last series has him focusing on superhumans. Also there was a series from 95-96 which had him fighting superhumans galore.

Hell Punisher started off as a Spiderman villain. I dont think theres a big enough difference. At any rate he has loads of showings that indicate he can handle them.

WHY IS THE SECOND SCAN IN GERMAN

Originally posted by Sin I AM
WHY IS THE SECOND SCAN IN GERMAN

Because it was bought in Germany?

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Because it was bought in Germany?

Originally posted by iceman24567
I'm going with Nightwing too.

Originally posted by Sin I AM


I'm into torture and stuff if you want to punish me for my insolence.

If u admit juggernaut can be harmed physically...then deal