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these to teams were the reason why the jedi almost died out it was because of these sith the jedi purge happend
round 1) On malachor v where the exile fought the giant storm beast force only
round 2) the trayus core all out fight

Which Vader and which Sidious?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Which Vader and which Sidious? i knew i was forgeting somthing
rots vader and de sidious

Well DE Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord ever.

Sion is pretty much useless in this fight.

As is Traya really, her only real strength was her power over the Force, and it is nowhere near Sidious' level.

Nihilus is really the only truly powerful member of the Triumvirate, but still loses.

RotS Vader gets wasted immediately by either Traya or Nihilus, and then DE Sidious dies.

Edit: Well, maybe. Sidious could probably fry Sion with a thought and then blitz Traya.

First senario (Force only): Triumvirate wins.

Second senario (All out): Empire boys win.

Out of curiosity, why is everyone so certain that DE Sidious would die here?

No one is "certain" that DE Sidious would win. In fact, all posts thus far suggest otherwise, mine excluded, and even I'm undecided.

Is this suited ROTS vader or pre-suit?

Sidious is gonna have to be OMGWTF fast here. He could manhandle Sion or Traya effortlessly, but he might go down to Nihilus and sheer numbers.

I can sort of seeing him shoving Vader forward to buy an extra second. Y'know, just for comedic effect

Vader would just have engage someone in a saber duel to buy Sidious time to wtfpwn the other two with the force, then tag team the remaining one. I don't think any of these three can touch Anakin/Vader in sabers.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Vader would just have engage someone in a saber duel to buy Sidious time to wtfpwn the other two with the force, then tag team the remaining one. I don't think any of these three can touch Anakin/Vader in sabers. sion might grab his saber hand den crush it or

Kreia/Traya Lightning/Storms the shit out of his suit...

as far as sids goes

DE he WTFPWN the forsaken shit out them
Rotj not sure possibly goes dwn to traya+Nihilus combo force

ROTS he dies,from what is shown,he gets destroyed by the triumvirate

No one said he was in a suit. So there goes that.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
No one said he was in a suit. So there goes that. still hasnt proven any defenses aginst any lightning...

Does he not have a saber?

again that only worked with mace and ob1 anny hasnt proven he could do that... even if he did it still prove a fatal mistake as Nihilus could lightning and approach at same time then hack in half arguement owned

After thinking about it, the Emperor won't have to worry about Sion for two reasons; first, Anakin has demonstrated the skills necessary to occupy his attention if not outright kill him due to his psuedoinvincibility and second, Palpatine could crush him with the Force. So if he absolutely can't spare the split second it would take to manhandle Sion, Skywalker is more than capable to attack the Dark Lord. Moreover, Palpatine is also capable of disintegrating Nihilus', Traya's, and Sion's lightsabers. The problem is dealing with Traya and Nihilus simultaneously.

foshizzillness

Of course, it's possible that Palpatine can immerse himself in Quey'tek and kill Nihilus as he makes Anakin Skywalker a Force slurpee.

Originally posted by Gideon
Of course, it's possible that Palpatine can immerse himself in Quey'tek and kill Nihilus as he makes Anakin Skywalker a Force slurpee. the hell is Quey'tek

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
the hell is Quey'tek

The technique that allows Palpatine to shield his Force sensitivity.

if such techniques worked dont you think atleast someone at katarr would known them and beside from what visas said he more or less spoke and it was like ruusan but more thorough however he did spare miss marr noone knows why

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
if such techniques worked dont you think atleast someone at katarr would known them and beside from what visas said he more or less spoke and it was like ruusan but more thorough however he did spare miss marr noone knows why Just because a technique exists, doesn't mean it's known by everyone.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Just because a technique exists, doesn't mean it's known by everyone. ... you missed my point and the jedi order of that era was like the PT jedi but with the force...

only had to be known by someone...

and i also questioned whether it would work

vong were supposedly outside of the force and immune to it but somehow lightning still freakin worked

the same could be applicable to nihilus's power

and also it is not something he really directs just kinda does

palps was never a potential threat to ALL life the Lord Of Hunger however...

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
... you missed my point and the jedi order of that era was like the PT jedi but with the force...

only had to be known by someone...

and i also questioned whether it would work

vong were supposedly outside of the force and immune to it but somehow lightning still freakin worked

the same could be applicable to nihilus's power

and also it is not something he really directs just kinda does

palps was never a potential threat to ALL life the Lord Of Hunger however... The Jedi Civil War Jedi were like the PT Jedi, but with the Force? The PT Jedi didn't have the Force?

Lightning worked on the Vong because Lightning itself isn't the Force, it's fueled by the Force.

one never said PT jedi didnt have the force

meant JCW era incredulous availabilty of sith and jedi knowledge

PT era most sith relics were destroyed or lost and after Ruusan...

I don't expect everyone to be familiar with as much knowledge as the rest of us, but you're starting to get on my nerves. You spam and talk about penis all day and then when you want to debate, you disagree seemingly just to disagree.



The technique did work because that was how Palpatine shielded his presence from the Jedi all this time. Moreover, Palpatine's knowledge of the Force supercedes every other character from any time period. His knowledge of the Force is greater than Traya's, Nihilus's, Yoda's, Bane's. You name it, he knows more. So the idea that Sidious couldn't have known it because someone on Katarr didn't is retarded.



Wrong. Palpatine was a threat to the galaxy, the universe, and life itself.

nevermind

Originally posted by Gideon
You spam and talk about penis all day1 maybe 2 post wasnt refering to PALPs in terms of knowledge was talking about the PT jedi...



not in the same way palp would most likely rather rule than exterminate












Finally got it down... i think

Gideon, I don't think Sidious would be able to disintegrate Nihilus' saber. We all agree he's incredibly adept at using the Force. I don't see Sidious ripping through his shields with anything other than a Force Storm or possibly Lightning.

I also don't see Vader's saber skills coming into play at all. The first senario is Force Only, so there goes that. The second is All-Out, and Nihilus or Traya could simply Force Sever/Drain him immediately. I know he's got the most Force potential of anyone, but ROTS Vader was not skilled with Force attacks or defense from what we've seen. Furthermore, he's never had to defend against the Sever technique and so would be unfamiliar with how to combat it.

Traya can use, what, four sabers at once (three telekinetically and one in her hand?), Nihilus is no slouch as we see from the game, and Sion was in charge of all the Sith Assassins wasn't he? Who were specifically trained to combat Force users. I can see DE Sidious surviving, but not frequently.

In fact, I might have to change my initial opinion on this match.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, I don't think Sidious would be able to disintegrate Nihilus' saber. We all agree he's incredibly adept at using the Force. I don't see Sidious ripping through his shields with anything other than a Force Storm or possibly Lightning.

I also don't see Vader's saber skills coming into play at all. The first senario is Force Only, so there goes that. The second is All-Out, and Nihilus or Traya could simply Force Sever/Drain him immediately. I know he's got the most Force potential of anyone, but ROTS Vader was not skilled with Force attacks or defense from what we've seen. Furthermore, he's never had to defend against the Sever technique and so would be unfamiliar with how to combat it.

Traya can use, what, four sabers at once (three telekinetically and one in her hand?), Nihilus is no slouch as we see from the game, and Sion was in charge of all the Sith Assassins wasn't he? Who were specifically trained to combat Force users. I can see DE Sidious surviving, but not frequently.

In fact, I might have to change my initial opinion on this match. pretty much my message De sids could possibly pull it off but anything less and the triunmvirate win..




despite all the bias against them


telekinetic saber combat-could put near anakins head ignite dead... vader in suit would get slaughter.period.

One more thing...



I'm not sure about this, but I don't believe Quey'tek would help Palpatine unless he's starting the battle from a location Nihilus can't see him. And, when he's immersed in the technique, would he even be able to do any of his own DS powers? My guess is not. I think he'd have to drop it as soon as he tries.

It shields sensitivity. Nothing indicates it stops him from using the Force.

Originally posted by Gideon
It shields sensitivity. Nothing indicates it stops him from using the Force.

Shielding sensitivity wouldn't help him avoid the Triumvirate's force attacks, would it? Especially if they could actually see him so that they didn't need to feel his presence.

I'm asking. I don't know.

Nihilus wtfpwns them both.

Of course he does.

Come to think of it...isn't that how Sidious was beaten in Dark Empire? Luke and Leia combined their powers and Force Sever'd him. That's what it looked like, anyhow. Now, obviously Luke + Leia > Nihilus, but consider his and Traya's skill with the technique, and the fact that that wasn't NJO Luke...

"There are techniques in the force to which there is no defense." -Kreia, in that flashback movie and shortly after Nihilus drains the force from her. Now I'll grant that Kreia isnt an absolute source, but throughout kotor 2 she seemed extremely knowledgeable and competent about matters of the force.

And that quote is alot more persuasive evidence than the drivel that some of you came up with such as, "Sidious will sever his own force connection in order to fight Nihilus." Wtf? How would Sidious defeat Nihilus without being able to use the force?

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
"There are techniques in the force to which there is no defense." -Kreia, in that flashback movie and shortly after Nihilus drains the force from her. Now I'll grant that Kreia isnt an absolute source, but throughout kotor 2 she seemed extremely knowledgeable and competent about matters of the force.

And that quote is alot more persuasive evidence than the drivel that some of you came up with such as, "Sidious will sever his own force connection in order to fight Nihilus." Wtf? How would Sidious defeat Nihilus without being able to use the force? Not sever, mask. Hide his connection. Though it won't help him much, as they know he's there.

And Kreia's not much of a source when it comes to power measures. I played through the game again recently and she contradicts an oft-quoted piece; "One cannot have power as he does and still perceive the Universe as we do." (Which itself is her opinion only). She goes on to say (not too long afterwards): "Power? You think so?" And I'm not citing that whole bit from memory, but she downplays Nihilus' power. Her's is opinion that's a bit biased from personal experience. She doesn't know Palpatine or his abilities, or whether or not he's learned these "defenses."

I still see DE Sidious winning this, though not Vader.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Shielding sensitivity wouldn't help him avoid the Triumvirate's force attacks, would it? Especially if they could actually see him so that they didn't need to feel his presence.

I'm asking. I don't know. It would avoid him being cut off the force because you can't touch a force bond that isn't there or a bond that you cannot see or sense. To your opponent, you would appear dead in the force and because of that their precognition abilities are useless.

Traya used it on a dozen invisible Sith assassins, who would presumably mask their presence in the Force through the use of a similar technique. You're forgetting that these three Sith spearheaded the Jedi Purge - they're probably more experienced with this manner of Force usage than most. Well, Sion and Traya, at least.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Not sever, mask. Hide his connection. Though it won't help him much, as they know he's there.

And Kreia's not much of a source when it comes to power measures. I played through the game again recently and she contradicts an oft-quoted piece; "One cannot have power as he does and still perceive the Universe as we do." (Which itself is her opinion only). She goes on to say (not too long afterwards): "Power? You think so?" And I'm not citing that whole bit from memory, but she downplays Nihilus' power. Her's is opinion that's a bit biased from personal experience. She doesn't know Palpatine or his abilities, or whether or not he's learned these "defenses."

I still see DE Sidious winning this, though not Vader.

From what I read I take it that you agree that masking his power would not help then.

Of course Kreia is just giving her opinion, but you have to admit shes pretty damn knowledgeable about the force and things in general. For instance she saw thousands of years into the future to predict the fall of the republic. Also that bit you quoted is misleading, Kreia never downplays Nihilus' raw power, "Power? You think so?" has to do with her definition of what power really is, Nihilus gets his power from hunger and she didnt believe that can be real power in the grand scheme of things.

Also its irrelevent whether Kreia knew about Palpatines defenses or not(she probably does if she can see so far in the future). Why? Because Kreias quote clearly states that there is no defense to the power that Nihilus uses.

Again I'll grant that Kreias word isnt absolute, but the arguments you guys are using in favor of Palpatine being able to defend it are based purely on crude speculation.

Not being an expert on KotOR or its dreaded sequel, where is it confirmed that Sith assassins mask their presence in the Force using Quey'tek or a variant thereof? Comparing a dozen neophyte assassins to the most powerful dark side Force user in history isn't very flattering.

Sith Assassins in Bane's time period masked their Force sensitivity, to the point that neither Zannah nor Bane with his orbalisks could sense them, even though they were only several feet away.

I will admit I don't know much prior to that, except the fact that they're specifically trained to kill Force-sensitives.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sith Assassins in Bane's time period masked their Force sensitivity, to the point that neither Zannah nor Bane with his orbalisks could sense them, even though they were only several feet away.

I will admit I don't know much prior to that, except the fact that they're specifically trained to kill Force-sensitives.

Still, the assassins of Bane's time aren't necessarily the equals of those of Revan's.

Originally posted by Gideon
Not being an expert on KotOR or its dreaded sequel, where is it confirmed that Sith assassins mask their presence in the Force using Quey'tek or a variant thereof?I didn't say it was "confirmed," I said "I presume" it to be the truth, as the shadow army of the Sith wouldn't be very useful if their presence could be sensed in any real manner.
Neophyte? Hardly. They're all either Dark Jedi (IIRC) or trained Force-sensitives, and happen to be the soldiers used by the Sith Triumvirate to carry out their will.

But no, I am in no way comparing their power to that of Sidious.

Originally posted by Gideon
Still, the assassins of Bane's time aren't necessarily the equals of those of Revan's. true and although game mechanics aren't canon even with force sight ya couldn't see them or yourself

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Also its irrelevent whether Kreia knew about Palpatines defenses or not(she probably does if she can see so far in the future). Why? Because Kreias quote clearly states that there is no defense to the power that Nihilus uses.

Again I'll grant that Kreias word isnt absolute, but the arguments you guys are using in favor of Palpatine being able to defend it are based purely on crude speculation. That's also speculation. Kreia's word isn't law, as you say yourself. There's nothing to suggest she knows the inner workings of Palpatine's mind. Note also, that everything she foretold was pertinent in her time as well. A man 4000 years in the future does not hold the magnitude that the long-lasting Republic and Mandalorians did (i.e. Palpatine wasn't relevant yet, so there is no prediction concerning him).

I'm no expert on Palpatine, but from what I know of his DE incarnation, it just seems to me unreasonable that he couldn't contend with Nihilus.

He was severed by Luke and Leia, who to my knowledge had never done anything like that before. Nihilus and Traya perfected the technique. Also, DE Sids doesn't show off a whole lot of versatility or defense. Unless I'm forgetting something, what he basically does throughout the arc is:

Use his Force Storm to open a wormhole and transport Luke from point A to point B.
Duels Luke and wins.
Uses his Force Lightning to shock but not kill Leia.
Attempts to touch Leia's stomach and gets electrocuted himself.
Duels Luke and loses.
Uses his Force Storm to destroy a non-active, basically parked rebel fleet on their planet's HQ's.
Gets Force Severed by Luke and Leia and killed by his own Force Storm.

So...yeah. I don't recall any vast defensive capabilities or even any variety in his attacks. At least Luke destroys some droids by messing up their internal gears and whatnot. :s

Originally posted by Tangible God
That's also speculation. Kreia's word isn't law, as you say yourself. There's nothing to suggest she knows the inner workings of Palpatine's mind. Note also, that everything she foretold was pertinent in her time as well. A man 4000 years in the future does not hold the magnitude that the long-lasting Republic and Mandalorians did (i.e. Palpatine wasn't relevant yet, so there is no prediction concerning him).

I'm no expert on Palpatine, but from what I know of his DE incarnation, it just seems to me unreasonable that he couldn't contend with Nihilus.

Its speculation but it isnt my speculation. Its the speculation of a very knowledgeable force user that there is no defense that can be learned against Nihilus' force drain. And since we never see anyone able to resist the force drain, not the Jedi(who very likely had more knowledge of dark side techniques than modern Jedi being that they actually fought wars against them in that time period) not a planet full of force users nor even Kreia herself, Im inclined to believe it. The Exile is able to resist but hes a special case, hes a wound in the force, and I really doubt that somone could duplicate his situation at will.

And Kreia was capable of making predictions about individuals. "They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi." Boba Fett ring a bell? I'll grant that the prophecy was a bit vague and cryptic, but thats the way she always is.

Originally posted by Faunus
Traya used it on a dozen invisible Sith assassins, who would presumably mask their presence in the Force through the use of a similar technique. You're forgetting that these three Sith spearheaded the Jedi Purge - they're probably more experienced with this manner of Force usage than most. Well, Sion and Traya, at least. "Presumably", not confirmed yet. But how do you know exactly that she really stripped their force connection off?

Anyways, in your opinion at least, how do you defend against this technique? If its so easy to cut people off the force like that then why isn't every dark lord doing so to his/her victims?

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Its speculation but it isnt my speculation. Its the speculation of a very knowledgeable force user that there is no defense that can be learned against Nihilus' force drain. And since we never see anyone able to resist the force drain, not the Jedi(who very likely had more knowledge of dark side techniques than modern Jedi being that they actually fought wars against them in that time period) not a planet full of force users nor even Kreia herself, Im inclined to believe it. The Exile is able to resist but hes a special case, hes a wound in the force, and I really doubt that somone could duplicate his situation at will.

And Kreia was capable of making predictions about individuals. "They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi." Boba Fett ring a bell? I'll grant that the prophecy was a bit vague and cryptic, but thats the way she always is. Again, Kreia's a manipulative b*tch and not a final credential. Hers is an opinion that should always be treated with skepticism. But yeah, she and Nihilus would know more about the Force Drain, though exactly how it would affect DE Sidious only leads to more speculation. Game mechanics aside, I'm still not convinced Nihilus' power is absolute and swift (he seemed to let an extraordinary number of opponents in his sights not only live, but defeat him). And Kreia's drain is seen used on three Jedi Masters who do not rival Sidious in general power nor mastery of the Dark Side. That said, it's just as unreasonable to think Palpatine could resist Kreia's drain as it would be say he couldn't overcome it.

My point about her predictions is that every subject she predicted 4000 years in the future was relevant to her back then. The Republic, the Jedi and the Mandalorians were relevant to the galaxy in Kreia's day just as they were in the PT. Palaptine, however was only pertinent in the PT, not the JCW. So that combined with her incredible lack of specifics points to her not knowing about Palpatine, nevermind a detailed account of his mind and powers of the Dark Side.

And woah, almost missed that. Exile=she.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
"Presumably", not confirmed yet. But how do you know exactly that she really stripped their force connection off?She does the exact same thing to them that she does to the Jedi Masters.
How would I know?
If it's so easy for DE Sidious to disintegrate metal with his lightning, why doesn't every Dark Lord do it?

Really. Nihilus and Traya are rather far above the norm.

I also get the feeling that unlike Force Lightning, Force Drain (or Sever) is much more difficult to learn.

I think the only way to beat that technique for certain is to loop out of the Force, ala NJO Luke.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Again, Kreia's a manipulative b*tch and not a final credential. Hers is an opinion that should always be treated with skepticism. But yeah, she and Nihilus would know more about the Force Drain, though exactly how it would affect DE Sidious only leads to more speculation. Game mechanics aside, I'm still not convinced Nihilus' power is absolute and swift (he seemed to let an extraordinary number of opponents in his sights not only live, but defeat him). And Kreia's drain is seen used on three Jedi Masters who do not rival Sidious in general power nor mastery of the Dark Side. That said, it's just as unreasonable to think Palpatine could resist Kreia's drain as it would be say he couldn't overcome it.

My point about her predictions is that every subject she predicted 4000 years in the future was relevant to her back then. The Republic, the Jedi and the Mandalorians were relevant to the galaxy in Kreia's day just as they were in the PT. Palaptine, however was only pertinent in the PT, not the JCW. So that combined with her incredible lack of specifics points to her not knowing about Palpatine, nevermind a detailed account of his mind and powers of the Dark Side.

And woah, almost missed that. Exile=she.

Well yes the real truth of the matter is that Nihilus is an unknown. Any argument involving him inevitably comes to nothing because no one has any concrete evidence on whether it can be resisted or not. Like I said before, Im inclined to believe that it cannot be resisted based on the Kreia quote and my own speculation but I agree that it isnt absolute proof and your free to make your own conclusions.

I fail to see how this is relevent. Kreia didnt name any names but her predictions are too close to the truth of the matter to just ignore. I never did try to prove that Kreia has an intimate knowledge of Palpatine, I merely hinted that it was possible and much like the Nihilus argument, there is no concrete evidence either way.

"They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi."

That she foresaw the coming of the Rule of Two (Darth Bane was around 1000 BBY, hence millennia), the Battle of Geonosis and the Great Jedi Purge would almost certainly mean she knew of Darth Sidious. I don't even think it matters if she knew intimate details about him or not - it shows remarkable precognition of the highest order. And makes her a fairly reliable witness in regards to most of anything she says. No one dismisses Yoda when he answers people cryptically - and his foresight, along with the rest of the PT Council, was shit in comparison.

It should be noted that thanks to Karen Traviss she was DEAD wrong about the Mandos

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It should be noted that thanks to Karen Traviss she was DEAD wrong about the Mandos

Well according to Lucas, Fett does die in ROTJ regardless of what the EU says. Im not sure what else you are implying by this, Im no expert on post ROTJ EU.

I'm glad he didn't die as it was shown, because it sets up his badass cameo in JA, but Traviss has completely ruined the character. Does she not get angry fan-mail or something?

Boba was never 'too easily slain by a Jedi,' she was likely referring Jango. Who wasn't even close to the last Mando now.

Hell, not even the last...millionth one.

I thought he brought back the Mandos. You're telling me their society as a whole was still around?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Boba was never 'too easily slain by a Jedi,' she was likely referring Jango. Who wasn't even close to the last Mando now.

Hell, not even the last...millionth one.

Boba was too easily slain by Jedi, remember that it was Luke who defeated him in ROTJ and thats where he died according to Lucas.

Well you can't discount one segment of EU (post-RotJ) while still discussing Kreia.

Originally posted by Faunus
Well you can't discount one segment of EU (post-RotJ) while still discussing Kreia.

Im not discounting the whole EU, just discounting that one point about Boba Fett living on. If the EU has now invented some idea that the Mandalorians are still alive and prospering then I wont dispute it though thats kind of lame imo.

Discounting the new Mandalorians would put into question almost all new post-RotJ trash. Sorry. It sucks, I know.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm glad he didn't die as it was shown, because it sets up his badass cameo in JA, but Traviss has completely ruined the character. Does she not get angry fan-mail or something?

I got banned for CONSTRUCTIVELY criticising her in a few posts at TF.net.

Hardasses.

How many places have you been banned from for stupid reasons?

Originally posted by Faunus
Hardasses.

How many places have you been banned from for stupid reasons?

Too many to count. I was banned from TF.net twice in one week. The first time was for bringing Traviss to task regarding her claim that the GAR only fielded three million clone troopers and that the Armed Forces of the Imperium (the Empire's army) only fielded nine million. Since she is writing the New Essential Guide to the Star Wars Military, I felt those needed to be addressed. They banned me.

The second ban came when I argued against people saying that Vader was a greater military tactition than Thrawn and smarter than Tarkin, simply because he's Palpatine's heir apparent.

Ha. Puny humans.

Didn't you get banned from StarDestroyer.net, too?

1. Vengeance: Luke didn't even touch Boba. Han accidentally activated his jet pack.

2. Faunus: Ohhhh yeah, the society was still around. In fact, she goes out of her way to point out the Death Watch conflict was totally irrelevant to Mandalorians as a whole.

Originally posted by Faunus
Ha. Puny humans.

Didn't you get banned from StarDestroyer.net, too?

Nebaris got my password (which admittedly, was painfully obvious), sent a bunch of inappropriate messages and nearly got me banned. I had a disagreement with the administration there, as well; the moderator, Ghost Rider, is a sadistic ****. He's ten times as antagonistic as I have ever accused Nai of being and calls me "dumb****", "****ing dumbass", "dumb ****ing dumbass", et cetera for a multitude of reasons. It didn't help that I flamed him later. What's odd is that SD.net, a place lacking in sympathy, also bore witness to multiple users coming out of the woodwork to defend me.

But no, never banned.

You should read the stuff that those Vader fanboys said at TF.net.

I have little enough faith in humanity as it is without being reduced to tears over the internet, but I guess I will at some point.

And lol @ Nebaris. He guessed your password? U phale.

Originally posted by Faunus
I have little enough faith in humanity as it is without being reduced to tears over the internet, but I guess I will at some point.

And lol @ Nebaris. He guessed your password? U phale.

It was a former username...

"Ilikehairymen" was a former username? Wow.

Still an epic fail on godlike portions

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
"Ilikehairymen" was a former username? Wow.

Janus, give Darth Sexy his account back.

I always took Kreia's quote as referring to Jango...*shrugs*

Most of what Kreia says (outside of the endgame prophecy) is designed to get the Exile to do what she wants. I wouldn't believe anything she says until she's on her deathbed, and still take it with a grain of salt.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Vengeance: Luke didn't even touch Boba. Han accidentally activated his jet pack.

Yes thats how he met his final end in the sarlacc pit, but before that he was fighting with Luke and his blaster was cut in half by Lukes lightsaber.

'All too easily slain by a Jedi.'
Unless Boba's soul was somehow tied to his blaster, Luke didn't kill him

Originally posted by Lightsnake
'All too easily slain by a Jedi.'
Unless Boba's soul was somehow tied to his blaster, Luke didn't kill him

Luke was the main reason that led to Bobas demise, but if you want to be that anal about it than I suppose you are correct.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Luke was the main reason that led to Bobas demise, but if you want to be that anal about it than I suppose you are correct.

One simply cannot find the words to convey how weak that line of thought is.

One doesn't simply walk into Mordor.

Originally posted by Gideon
One simply cannot find the words to convey how weak that line of thought is.

Without Luke do you really think that they would of had a chance of defeating Jabbas forces? But yeah I didnt intend to argue over it, notice that I conceded the point to LS.

Actually, I thought Kreia was referring to Jango's death at the hands of Mace Windu - he was, after all, the last 'real' Mandalorian known to the galaxy, and Boba was just a clone. Although this was before LS informed me of the Mandalorian planet.

Originally posted by Faunus
Actually, I thought Kreia was referring to Jango's death at the hands of Mace Windu - he was, after all, the last 'real' Mandalorian known to the galaxy, and Boba was just a clone. Although this was before LS informed me of the Mandalorian planet.

Yeah either way it seems Kreia was in error. Unless the Mandalorians are wiped out again in some future EU.

Originally posted by Faunus
One doesn't simply walk into Mordor.

This is either the singular most retarded thing I have ever seen or it made sense on such a level that my mind can't comprehend it.

My mind does of course operate on the proverbial plateau, with the rest of your mere mortals' minds being limited to the ditch miles below.

Originally posted by Faunus
My mind does of course operate on the proverbial plateau, with the rest of your mere mortals' minds being limited to the ditch miles below.

You are truly great. Almost as great as Gilad Pellaeon who is, in turn, almost as great as my Master, Publius.

You are obsessed.

Originally posted by Faunus
You are obsessed.

YOO DONT KNOW MI!

MI = My Initials? I know the first one.

Hey. You could be Agent J if you joined the MIB. Nifty.

Originally posted by Faunus
Actually, I thought Kreia was referring to Jango's death at the hands of Mace Windu - he was, after all, the last 'real' Mandalorian known to the galaxy, and Boba was just a clone. Although this was before LS informed me of the Mandalorian planet.

That was my take as well. Guess the whole avatar thing paid off.

Faunus, I'm curious...have you read 'Revelation?' Are you aware of what Traviss DID in that book?

Originally posted by Faunus
My mind does of course operate on the proverbial plateau, with the rest of your mere mortals' minds being limited to the ditch miles below. Oh I dunno, I thought I mighta seen you on a plateau once, way beneath me on my Balloon of Infallible Understanding.

Like I said - I haven't read any NJO books aside from Traitor (and Dark Tide or something, actually, a while ago), haven't read DN, and haven't touched LotF.

A shame. Do check out the battle board thread and see the link I posted...methinks you'll enjoy it.

Originally posted by Gideon
He's ten times as antagonistic as I have ever accused Nai of being...

OMFG?

Originally posted by Borbarad
OMFG?

SRSLY. Sir, you have been outclassed.

Bet you hear that all the time.

Originally posted by Faunus
Bet you hear that all the time.


I...




Damn.

I 'LULZ' at thy failure. May you fall out of a car and hit your head on a stop sign.

Originally posted by Faunus
I 'LULZ' at they failure. May you fall out of a car and hit your head on a stop sign.

HAR! U SAID THEY INSTEAD OF THY. MAY QUEEN ELIZABETH SIT ON YOUR FACE.

I do not know of what you speak, sir. May the Fat Lady stop singing for a moment to pull your head out of her ass.

Originally posted by Faunus
One doesn't simply walk into Mordor.

Heresy!

http://sc.tri-bit.com/images/9/97/VB6XECXSJBGUVB7XAALN2X4XLLEEITFB.jpg

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Heresy!

http://sc.tri-bit.com/images/9/97/VB6XECXSJBGUVB7XAALN2X4XLLEEITFB.jpg

I lold. That is one of the most perfect things i've ever seen.

You totally had that pic waiting.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Heresy!

http://sc.tri-bit.com/images/9/97/VB6XECXSJBGUVB7XAALN2X4XLLEEITFB.jpg Awesomeness

Sidious was a master at force lightning. He was a master at force concealment, able to conceal his force power from the jedi for decades. He used the dark side to cloud the jedi order's vision, and manipulate people. He was so good at telekenesis that he was able to rip senate pods from their durasteel restraints, and send them flying at Yoda with great ease. Sidious used a weird hypnotic ability on Galen Marek(Vader's secret apprentice), entering his mind and putting thoughts in his head. He found a way to cheat death by putting his spirit in clone bodies. Sidious was able to spread his dark energy throughout the planet byss, dominating the wills of the inhabitants that lived there, and sucking their life energies from them. His power in the dark side was so intense that he was able to rip holes in the fabric of space and time, creating powerful force storms to reduce entire starfleets to dust, or even tear surfaces from planets even lightyears away. Sidious also mastered sith alchemy, and was able to mutate creatures with the dark side, or empower individuals and armies with the dark side.

Darth Vader even with his suit was powerful enough to kill countless jedi single handedly. He Gave Galen Marek a good fight, and Galen was said to have been one of the most powerful force users in history. Vader was so skilled at force choke that he can choke someone without having to be in the same room. Vader's strength in the dark side was powerful enough to crush entire war vihicles, or the bodies of his opponents. He was able to rip the thoughts out of people's minds.

Sidious and Palpatine win this. Sidious will handle Nihilus, while Vader handles Traya and Sion. Please don't say they will kill Vader with force lightning, because Galen Marek was unable to kill Vader with force lightning, and Galen was more powerful than they were.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious and Palpatine win this. Sidious will handle Nihilus, while Vader handles Traya and Sion. Please don't say they will kill Vader with force lightning, because Galen Marek was unable to kill Vader with force lightning, and Galen was more powerful than they were.What's stopping Nihilus from doing to Vader what he did to Traya? All it takes is a flick of his hand, and I doubt that Vader - who, while being exceptionally powerful, isn't much of a scholar - would be able to defend against a technique that Traya herself believes has no defense.

Alone, Sidious doesn't stand a chance.

Vader wouldn't be fighting Nihilus, he would most likely go after Traya and Sion.

Sidious has mastered force drain just like Nihilus has. Whats to stop Sidious from reducing Nihilus and his fleet to dust with a force storm?

I wasn't aware there would be a fleet, or that they would be so spread out. The OP says they're fighting in the Trayus Core.

Well still either way Sidious has more power at his disposal. Remember Nihilus was a master of force drain, while Sidious was the master of the dark side, in which force drain was a dark side technique. According to the Dark Side Sourcebook Sidious was the most powerful practitioner of the dark side, and had mastered nearly every technique of the dark side, and created his own techniques. Sidious also had the ability to enter someones body and smother out the spirit that dwells within. So who is to say that if Nihilus took Sidious's life essence that Sidious coulded posses Nihilus's body?

Originally posted by Faunus
What's stopping Nihilus from doing to Vader what he did to Traya? All it takes is a flick of his hand, and I doubt that Vader - who, while being exceptionally powerful, isn't much of a scholar - would be able to defend against a technique that Traya herself believes has no defense.

Alone, Sidious doesn't stand a chance. And what did he exactly do to traya? Cut her off the force? Then why was she still able to reach out with the force to attempt to call forth her lightsaber?

When she said "i was stripped of my power", it could also mean that her position as the head of the triumvirate was casted down and stripped.

Besides, if he is so powerful, being able to tool kreia with a mere force push, why couldn't he do the same to mandalor or the exile?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well still either way Sidious has more power at his disposal. Remember Nihilus was a master of force drain, while Sidious was the master of the dark side, in which force drain was a dark side technique. According to the Dark Side Sourcebook Sidious was the most powerful practitioner of the dark side, and had mastered nearly every technique of the dark side, and created his own techniques. Sidious also had the ability to enter someones body and smother out the spirit that dwells within. So who is to say that if Nihilus took Sidious's life essence that Sidious coulded posses Nihilus's body?

I'm not sure Nihilus has a body. Man, though, the comparisons between them are interesting.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
And what did he exactly do to traya? Cut her off the force? Then why was she still able to reach out with the force to attempt to call forth her lightsaber?You did notice that her attempt failed miserably, right? And then she got her face owned by Sion.

Like I said earlier - whatever he did, her Force ability was reduced to a level below that of freezing-cold, upside-down, face-slashed-open ESB Luke Skywalker.

Did you read any of my previous posts?

He put all three of the attackers in stasis as soon as they walked up to him. He could've killed them then. Instead, he tried to do his thing to the Exile, and the attempt back-fired and crippled him. That's how he died. When he was already starved - which was why he was going to destroy Telos - after he'd tried to "sever" the Exile, after he'd already locked her, Visas, and Mandalore in stasis.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader wouldn't be fighting Nihilus, he would most likely go after Traya and Sion.Then he would get owned by Traya/Sion...

One thing at a time. First off, there's no fleet, and if Sidious uses his Force-storm he would die immediately. Think, please.

Second, Nihilus doesn't use a "drain." He severs connections to the Force, and then feeds on the reverberations caused by the resulting deaths.

Right. This debate had been pretty much settled already...

Nihilus still had some what of a body. It was said that he was more presence than flesh, not just presence. He had something there that contained his spirit.

Originally posted by Faunus
Then he would get owned by Traya/Sion...

One thing at a time. First off, there's no fleet, and if Sidious uses his Force-storm he would die immediately. Think, please.

Second, Nihilus doesn't use a "drain." He severs connections to the Force, and then feeds on the reverberations caused by the resulting deaths.

Vader would not get owned by them. He fought more powerful beings than them like Galen.

How would Sidious die by using force storm. The only way to cut him off from his force storm is by pressing the power of the lightside around him. Does Nihilus use the light side? No. If Vesas Marr survived Nihilus's force drain than im sure Sidious can. Sidious can also create small versions of force storms. So he can just create a small one around Nihilus. It only takes a thought for Sidious to create one. Sidious is said to be the most powerful sith in history, so that means more powerful than Nihilus. the Dark Side sourcebook proves this, and so does the essential guide to chronology.

Originally posted by Faunus
You did notice that her attempt failed miserably, right? And then she got her face owned by Sion.

Like I said earlier - whatever he did, her Force ability was reduced to a level below that of freezing-cold, upside-down, face-slashed-open ESB Luke Skywalker.
But if ones connection were really severed from the force, how would he/she still have the ability to reach out with the force to attempt to call out their weapon? A victim that is really severed from the force wouldn't even be able to try to reach out with the force let alone command it...

But i think its also possible that the impact caused when kreia was slammed against the wall by nihilus caused her concentration to be plundered and that she may had suffered a concussion which made it very hard for her to focus to properly command the force.

I really think this is plausible faunus, if she was really severed off the force, how could she even try to grab her lightsaber?


Originally posted by Faunus

Did you read any of my previous posts?

He put all three of the attackers in stasis as soon as they walked up to him. He could've killed them then. Instead, he tried to do his thing to the Exile, and the attempt back-fired and crippled him. That's how he died. When he was already starved - which was why he was going to destroy Telos - after he'd tried to "sever" the Exile, after he'd already locked her, Visas, and Mandalore in stasis. No i did not, but i do get it now.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
But if ones connection were really severed from the force, how would he/she still have the ability to reach out with the force to attempt to call out their weapon? A victim that is really severed from the force wouldn't even be able to try to reach out with the force let alone command it...

But i think its also possible that the impact caused when kreia was slammed against the wall by nihilus caused her concentration to be plundered and that she may had suffered a concussion which made it very hard for her to focus to properly command the force.

I really think this is plausible faunus, if she was really severed off the force, how could she even try to grab her lightsaber?Obviously I don't think he did cut her off from the Force like he was trying to do the Exile. But whatever he did clearly dampened her ability substantially.

A concussion? Doesn't really make sense, unless that was one hell of a Force-push and her brain just doesn't move inside her head. Luke was knocked into a starship's door with such force that his helmet split in two and his head left an impression in the steel. He then proceeded to get up and kick the shit out of the man responsible.

Star Wars characters tend to have obscene levels of resistance to that kind of injury. See Obi-Wan / Qui-Gon vs. Maul for that.

Ok cool. Then it was not a force sever.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Ok cool. Then it was not a force sever.

Right. I almost got the feeling it was some kind of...Force Supression? Whatever it was, its clear he didn't mean for it to be fatal.

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly is a force supression?

An attack I just made up? lol

It's pretty clear that if Nihilus wanted to sever her, she'd be dead - immediately. So, it wasn't a Force Sever. It seems to me like he almost threw out some kind of telekinetic or Force-based attack that blocked her own ability to use the Force....hence, "Force Supression."

Clever, right?

Lol maybe.

I think Nihilus power operates in the same way as the Harvester in the Dark Reaper, with the exception of his power being WAY more effective and powerful.

Nothing said can change the fact that Sidious is the most powerful sith lord of all time.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nothing said can change the fact that Sidious is the most powerful sith lord of all time.

Actually, that's not true. Were I inclined to disagree with you, then Sidious's position would be cast in doubt. Such is my power.

Originally posted by Gideon
Actually, that's not true. Were I inclined to disagree with you, then Sidious's position would be cast in doubt. Such is my power.

Yeah you are inclined to disagree, but you are only disagreeing with canon sources.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah you are inclined to disagree, but you are only disagreeing with canon sources.

You must not have understood him. Gideon is the main advocate for Sidious rights. He could cast Sidious's position into doubt because I made him all powerful, using my retroactive infallibility. It's common knowledge, really.

Oh... Ok... I guess?????

Yes. Gideon would make a fantastic sophist.

He reminds me of IKC, who argued that Exar Kun could take out the entire PT Jedi Council - clearly wrong - but did it so well that it was difficult to counter him without making yourself look stupid.

Let this thread die, please.

There is no arguement about Sidious being the greatest and most powerful sith ever. You can't argue with canon sources.... Well you can, but it is kind of pointless.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is no arguement about Sidious being the greatest and most powerful sith ever. You can't argue with canon sources.... Well you can, but it is kind of pointless. Greatest is relative, actually. While you clearly love the character, others might find "greatness" inherent in others.

Me? Yeah, I think Palpatine is the greatest Sith Lord of all time, because he does what most others of his cult spend their lives dreaming of doing.

And just because he's the most learned and powerful does not mean he can't be beaten. You couldn't be farther from the truth, and you have seriously got to start thinking a little.

Of course it is possible for him to be beaten. It is possible for a professional ufc fighter to get wooped by a random person off the streets, but the propability is very unlikely.

When they say Sidious was the greatest, they mostly mean what he was able to accomplish, and his knowledge. When they say he was the most powerful practitioner of the dark side, that means no one has surpassed him in power.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah you are inclined to disagree, but you are only disagreeing with canon sources. Dude, if you want somebody to argue with, pick Tangible God... He's this forums Dumb, Stubborn Republican...


















Welcome to Hell, my friendly denizen.

No need to argue.... The sources have spoken.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nothing said can change the fact that Sidious is the most powerful sith lord of all time. Want to back that up?


While that is the general consensus, the Nature of the Lord of Hunger is such that he could still defeat Sids.

Raw power and truly extensive knowledge is one thing, but control and finesse of that that power and ability to use the knowledge ( Palpatine cannot use the Lightside Period ) that one has is another.

By the way, if any Jedi/Sith that had the ability to heal someones heart or spirit then they could SEVERELY disrupt his abilities.

So anyone clever enough or with the knowledge of what would happen could defeat him.

See he was so immersed in darkness that he became it's avatar and battle, war, atrocities, any conflict in general could serve to strengthen and deepen his connection. His only weakness was that there was NO WAY IN HELL that he could even touch the light and not be harmed.

See the thing is that while

Freedon Nadd

Exar kun

Ulic Qel-Droma (before it was stripped/suppressed I say suppressed because he managed to become one with the force so...)

Revan and Malak

Traya

and virtually all of the other Sith had the capacity to redeem themselves and once again be of the Light, heck some could use the Light even while they were of the Sith.

Palpatine could not ever be redeemed and after he started to use the Darkside to transfer his spirit from one body to another, the light was forever forbidden to him.

So when Leia and Luke used the force to heal him as if they cared about him and exposed him to light it ****ed him up.


Those are my theories and I hope there atleast 90% correct.

Whoops 2x post.

The sources have spoken at last, your days as an anti-palpatine dog are over...


Here are some sources along with the ones i took and borrowed from gideon.

The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed.
-- Death Star, page 76.

"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72.

Dark Empire sourcebook:

Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned.

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits(The audio book, i got this from nikkolas):
He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes.

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: Palpatine at his peak.

Essential Chronology: the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave.

had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.

His battle with Luke in Dark Empire, according to the audio, had enough energy sent off to kill nearby Stormtroopers. He also can drain planets of their energy.

Yes you are correct those are your THEORIES. No canon proof what soe ever

Back it up? I already did. The dark side source book said he was the most powerful practitioner of the dark side, and that he knew nearly every dark side technique. It didn't just say he was the most knowledgeable.

Just look at my post^^ Half the evidence is there

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
The sources have spoken at last, your days as an anti-palpatine dog are over...


Here are some sources along with the ones i took and borrowed from gideon.

The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed.
-- Death Star, page 76.

"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72.

Dark Empire sourcebook:

Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned.

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits(The audio book, i got this from nikkolas):
He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes.

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: Palpatine at his peak.

Essential Chronology: the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave.

had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.

His battle with Luke in Dark Empire, according to the audio, had enough energy sent off to kill nearby Stormtroopers. He also can drain planets of their energy.

Wow i even missed a lot of those.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
The sources have spoken at last, your days as an anti-palpatine dog are over...


Here are some sources along with the ones i took and borrowed from gideon.

The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed.
-- Death Star, page 76.

"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72.

Dark Empire sourcebook:

Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned.

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits(The audio book, i got this from nikkolas):
He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes.

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: Palpatine at his peak.

Essential Chronology: the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave.

had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.

His battle with Luke in Dark Empire, according to the audio, had enough energy sent off to kill nearby Stormtroopers. He also can drain planets of their energy. I never said he was not he most powerful Sith Lord in history, but I was refering how Luke and Leai manged to actually beat him.

The fact that he was completely in concert with darkness is what opened that attack avenue.


The fact that they merely used the light to heal him is what separates them from everybody else who tried to vanquish him.


They FOUGHT him, they were trying to KILL or DESTROY him and it served only to strengthen his grasp on the darkside, but when the Skywalker twins HEALED him they exposed him to the light and disrupted his connections to evil and they darkside. Conflicts, great and small, are what fuels it, and instead of trying to harm him or hurt him they use the force to heal his diseased spirit.


Prove to mean that they had to used all their might to do this and I will be defeated.


Let me get you the scene in which those two finally beat him.

Uh the two that beat him? No it was THREE skywalkers(leia's unborn child) that cut his connection when he was focusing on controlling the force storm.

And you simply asked to backup that sidious is #1, and when i give yo evidence you deny you made the claim in the first place.

When they healed him, his control over his OWN ABILITIES were extremely disrupted and he couldn't regain control over them and he was destroyed by his own power.


He was DEFINITELY the most powerful, but did he have the most CONTROL over it is what I question?


His self control is lacking a tiny bit and that is where Traya and Sion Severly outclass him.