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I know this is kinda stupid, since Pre-Retcon Beyonder is believed to be the God of the omnipotent GOD.

But does old man freaky face The Presence (I'm talking about the white haired hobo who ate Heaven) stand a chance against God's God??

As powerful as PR beyonder was he's not equal to or above "God". If this is the Presence who is "God" of the DCU he wins all day, everyday.

Beyonder would 1 shot him.

PR Byonder was ridiculously powerful. Equal to or possibly even stronger than the TOAA. I'm gonna have to say stalemate on this one, but kinda leaning toward PRB.

The Presence would blink him out of existence. PR Beyonder isn't Gods God he is like him but not, mainly a immature godlike being who didn't get to his full potential. Can you say closed???

Originally posted by kevdude
The Presence would blink him out of existence. PR Beyonder isn't Gods God he is like him but not, mainly a immature godlike being who didn't get to his full potential. Can you say closed???
I agree.

Presence.

presance

Presence ftw

If I know my stuff, Pr beyonder is Rulk = TOAA, so Stalemate.

I am more powerful than the Presence

Guy just spammed a thread? The end has truly come... g_twitch

stalemate

Beyonder wins.

Presence.

Originally posted by guy222
I am more powerful than the Presence

This.

Originally posted by cloud102
Presence. Feats?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Feats?

Creating Synnar. biscuits

Originally posted by Enyalus
Creating Synnar. biscuits Asmodel challenged the presence and he never showed. Beyonder wins due to forfeit.

Asmodel freakin' lost to a Superman who didn't have super strength. Asmodel sucks at life.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Asmodel freakin' lost to a Superman who didn't have super strength. Asmodel sucks at life.

LOL! He was also in his flesh suit!

Originally posted by cloud102
LOL! He was also in his flesh suit!

Honestly, I think it would've been great to have Lobo beat on Asmodel during Reign in Hell...except for the little problem of Nekron kicking his ass before hand instead.

Originally posted by cloud102
LOL! He was also in his flesh suit! Not when he wrestled with Superman.

Originally posted by Galan007
Guy just spammed a thread? The end has truly come... g_twitch

Originally posted by joesdabest1
Beyonder would 1 shot him.

To those who believe that Presence is without limits I point towards the Presence disrespect thread I created some time ago. It's closed, but the hypothesis--along with sources--are there.

As for this battle I would say it's a stalemate, but if I have to go one way or another I'd go with the Beyonder. Because at least there were reasonable explanations for his restrictions (he willed it) and he was the most powerful fictional entity in Marvel at the moment.

Originally posted by Astner
To those who believe that Presence is without limits I point towards the Presence disrespect thread I created some time ago. It's closed, but the hypothesis--along with sources--are there.

As for this battle I would say it's a stalemate, but if I have to go one way or another I'd go with the Beyonder. Because at least there were reasonable explanations for his restrictions (he willed it) and he was the most powerful fictional entity in Marvel at the moment. Who closed it down?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Who closed it down?
Digi, after people spammed the thread--the thread was created solely for a point--as where Digi requested that the thread would have to be constantly updated.

But the point still stands, the thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=486424&highlight=title%3A%28presence+disrespect%29

Originally posted by Astner
Digi, after people spammed the thread--the thread was created solely for a point--as where Digi requested that the thread would have to be constantly updated.

But the point still stands, the thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=486424&highlight=title%3A%28presence+disrespect%29 I'll have a look see later.

Originally posted by Harbinger
Presence.

The Presence is not what TOAA is in Marvel. When The Presence said that there are external sources that shaped him, that external forces are probably what TOAA is in Marvel.

Originally posted by Xplosive
The Presence is not what TOAA is in Marvel. When The Presence said that there are external sources that shaped him, that external forces are probably what TOAA is in Marvel. Different presence.

TOAA shaped the Presence

Originally posted by Enyalus
Creating Synnar. biscuits

nuh uh.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
nuh uh.
Yah-huh.

nuh-uh. He created the demiurge. Synnar is just the hapless moron who's the vessel.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
nuh-uh. He created the demiurge. Synnar is just the hapless moron who's the vessel.
****ing technicality. Get that weak-sauce outta here!

How can Beyonder defeat something he can't even see?

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
How can Beyonder defeat something he can't even see?
Why wouldn't he be able to see the Presence?

And on a more sincere note, why would they use their "eyes" in this battle? It's basically two clusters giant of multiverses battling each other.

Originally posted by Astner
Why wouldn't he be able to see the Presence?
Because The Presence has no form, no shape, no physical embodiment.

He is everything in the DCU.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Because The Presence has no form, no shape, no physical embodiment.

He is everything in the DCU.
If you clicked on the link above--to the respect thread--you'd realise that what you're claiming is wrong.

Originally posted by Astner
If you clicked on the link above--to the respect thread--you'd realise that what you're claiming is wrong.
YHWH is just a manifestation of The Presence.
Since he has no TRUE shape and form, it is how our limited minds conceive him to be.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
YHWH is just a manifestation of The Presence.
Since he has no TRUE shape and form, it is how our limited minds conceive him to be.
The source and evidence for the claim is?

The Presence or Yahweh are one and the same (The Presence is known under many names). The same being, the same person. The Presence is personal and that is also clear in the comics. Yahweh may be The Presence manifestation or his expansion, but it's still The Presence, the same person. No difference.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
He is everything in the DCU.

The power of The Presence derives from him. The Presence is personal and he controls the Supreme power. He is everywhere in DC and controls everything, since everything is under his power. But he still is a person with shape and form, but is the Supreme person, with the absolute power in comics (similar to THOTI, but it seems that not like TOAA).

This is a stalemate, but The Presence would probably take the win.

Presence

Synnar the Demiurge is coming

Originally posted by quanchi112
Asmodel challenged the presence and he never showed. Beyonder wins due to forfeit.

Well if you consider that a win quan then ok.

If we consider JLA/Avengers to be canon, (debatable) then the marvel and DC multiverses are roughly equivalent in size.

this means that the presence=marvel's TOAA...both would be supreme rulers/gods/whatevers of the totalities of their respective realities.

The problem with pre-retcon beyonder is that he/it was stated to be not just a god, but an entire sentient reality quadrillions of times more powerful than either one of those. the "beyond realm" wasn't part of the marvel universe, it was a completely different continuity and further proven to be so when the "new universe" was established (and abandoned) after secret wars.

to put it very simply, it's like making a versus fight between the marvel and image universes, with the stipulation that image is a billion times larger/more powerful. There's no way for DC, the presence, or anyone to win a debate against Pre-retcon beyonder. that character was retconned for a reason- it completely broke the marvel cosmic heirarchy and made a joke out of it.

the only way the presence doesn't get obliterated instantly is if you can somehow make the argument that the DC multiverse is equivalent to the size/power of the pre-retcon beyond realm, which is (1) ludicrous and (2) not likely if we consider JLA/Avengers to be canon.

no more vs. threads with PR beyonder please. That character needs to be retired from these boards.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
If we consider JLA/Avengers to be canon, (debatable) then the marvel and DC multiverses are roughly equivalent in size.

this means that the presence=marvel's TOAA... Size = Power?

Originally posted by Astner
If you clicked on the link above--to the respect thread--you'd realise that what you're claiming is wrong.
You are referring to a manifestation of The Presence himself.

IIRC he's done it at least 3 times already:
As YHWH, as Wally, and as Jim Corrigan's father.

Rama Kushna is also a plausible alternate name referred to him.

But essentially, The Presence has no form and all-encompassing, similar to the Abrahamic God.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

But essentially,
The Presence has no form and all-encompassing, similar to the Abrahamic God.
Just like THOTI, or the Infinity Being and even Eternity/Infinity.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Just like THOTI, or the Infinity Being and even Eternity/Infinity.
THOTI has been shown as a spherical mass of blue energy.

Eternity has a permanent form, as well as Infinity.

The Presence has NO form, no M-Body.
Like the Brahman of Hinduism, Allah of Islam, or the Abrahamic God of Christianity.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
THOTI has been shown as a spherical mass of blue energy.

Eternity has a permanent form, as well as Infinity.

The Presence has NO form, no M-Body.
Like the Brahman of Hinduism, Allah of Islam, or the Abrahamic God of Christianity.

Brahman is Krishna expansion in a non-personal form. So, the same person in a different, non-personal role (Krishna knew people in material world will easier conceive God, Him in a non-personal form, but God is a person, but a Supreme Person unlike us, who are His particles). But Supreme Person is the cause of Brahman. We know Krishna is a person, Supreme Person, Absolute and has His shape and form. Jesus was clearly teaching that God is personal (so the true Abrahamic God of Christianity was thought by Jesus to be a person, the same goes for Allah, but Brahman is indeed His non-personal form), so was Muhammad, so were other true spiritual masters (A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada being also among them).
Maybe The Presence is Brahman, that is why it was clearly seen that even The Presence is shaped by external sources, by person or personal form. The Presence is like THOTI, the absolute writer power within comics.
Krishna is God or Allah, and Brahman is His non-personal expansion.
Although Hinduism has Vishnu as the Supreme and Krishna as his avatar, true spiritual masters have clearly said that Krishna is the Supreme and cause of all causes and therefor also cause of Vishnu expansion.

I might have misunderstood something but isn't we (the readers) according to Morrison, the Presence?

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

THOTI has been shown as a spherical mass of blue energy.
Wrong.

THOTI was a formless concentration of all energy in the Omniverse,
once merged with it, Thanos became all that is, was or ever will be.
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

Eternity has a permanent form, as well as Infinity.
False.

Eternity is a concept, so is Infinity, how can they have form?

Eternity/Infinity employ fractals to give them a form, ( to manifest as an image)
but this form is not either of them, just a shell that contains their power.
Originally posted by occultdestroyer

The Presence has NO form, no M-Body.

Like the Brahman of Hinduism, Allah of Islam,
or the Abrahamic God of Christianity.
Really, where is it stated that the Christian God has no form?
(according to Ezekiel, who literally saw God, God has form, shape and substance)
while being spirit simultaneously.

And let's not mention the others, they're inconsequential,
the Presence, who related to michael/Lucifer and Jesus,
is obviously a cheap imitation of the Abrahamic God,
cheap ... because Lucy is not God's son in any way shape or form,
according to the Bible, which is where everything Christian God is defined,
Yahweh only has one, and that's Jesus.

Lucifer/Michael/Gabriel are not literally The Presence/God's sons.
They're just the most powerful angels. And probably the most powerful beings in all DCU existance sans The Presence itself.
He refers to them as my son's in the same way that the Bible states all of human beings are God's children.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And let's not mention the others, they're inconsequential,
the Presence, who related to michael/Lucifer and Jesus,
is obviously a cheap imitation of the Abrahamic God,
cheap ... because Lucy is not God's son in any way shape or form,
according to the Bible, which is where everything Christian God is defined,
Yahweh only has one, and that's Jesus.

That is partially true, because Jesus has also clearly said that he is not God and that we are all God children's, no less than Jesus himself.
It's only that we have fallen from our true nature, true home, from spiritual realm and Jesus is among more true spiritual masters who have come to teach us, to show us a way, how to return home, because we have forgotten it all.
And also about God having only one son, Jesus, no it's not true. Jesus was never teaching that, but that is the way of today corrupted church who is teaching something that Jesus was never teaching.
There is almost no Christian in the world that is following Jesus, but mostly are following christian church, which has gone all wrong of what Jesus wanted.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish

Lucifer/Michael/Gabriel are not literally The Presence/God's sons.
They're just the most powerful angels. And probably the most powerful beings in all DCU existance sans The Presence itself.
He refers to them as my son's in the same way that the Bible states all of human beings are God's children.
I have the Lucifer/Sandman/Spectre seires,
there are several issues where it's literally stated by the Vertigo/DC God himself,
that they are his sons (Mike/Lucy) ...
other references from Lucy/Mike & other characters/narration are also mentioned.

btw. ... Humans are called God's children,
more for symbolism rather than actuality,
Humans are just Humans now, but have the potential to be God's children,
but this is when we evolve in death into the next existence,
where we will all be gods, hence, "God's children" ...

Only Jesus is referred to as God's actual son in the Bible.
(in fact, it's literally stated, God's "only begotten son"

Presence for the win

What are the Presance's feat's

Originally posted by Nihilist
What are the Presance's feat's


What are TOAA's feats

Originally posted by Mr Master
btw. ... Humans are called God's children,
more for symbolism rather than actuality,
Humans are just Humans now, but have the potential to be God's children,
but this is when we evolve in death into the next existence,
where we will all be gods, hence, "God's children" ...

No, not true. Humans are are all God's children and that is actuality and not because of symbolism. We are souls and not humans. We are souls trapped in human body. We are all God's children, literally. We are God's children as demigods are, as Jesus is, as Muhammad is, as fish are, as ants are and bacterias. Every living being is 100% God children. No difference between Jesus and any other living being in that department.

Originally posted by Mr Master
but this is when we evolve in death into the next existence,
where we will all be gods, hence, "God's children" ...

That is, because in our true nature we are godlike, because we are His particles (in quality we are the same to God, but not in quantity). But because we have fallen, that doesn't make us any less of His children than before. It means we have fallen from out true nature and forgotten it. Jesus is one of many true spiritual masters who was sent to revive that memory and to teach who we truly are (among that is that we are Krishna (God) children) and why we are here, in material world and how to return home.
But many are not following Jesus and other spiritual masters. But if you follow Jesus, that automatically means you are following Muhammad, Srila Prabhupada... absolute truth. Jesus teaching was from the beginning manipulated and then by church. One of worse manipulation is killing animals for food.

Originally posted by starlock
What are TOAA's feats mhmm He/She is not in this thread.

Originally posted by Xplosive
No, not true. Humans are are all God's children and that is actuality and not because of symbolism. We are souls and not humans. We are souls trapped in human body. We are all God's children, literally. We are God's children as demigods are, as Jesus is, as Muhammad is, as fish are, as ants are and bacterias. Every living being is 100% God children. No difference between Jesus and any other living being in that department.



That is, because in our true nature we are godlike, because we are His particles (in quality we are the same to God, but not in quantity). But because we have fallen, that doesn't make us any less of His children than before. It means we have fallen from out true nature and forgotten it. Jesus is one of many true spiritual masters who was sent to revive that memory and to teach who we truly are (among that is that we are Krishna (God) children) and why we are here, in material world and how to return home.
But many are not following Jesus and other spiritual masters. But if you follow Jesus, that automatically means you are following Muhammad, Srila Prabhupada... absolute truth. Jesus teaching was from the beginning manipulated and then by church. One of worse manipulation is killing animals for food.

How could anyone believe this babble....

As powerful as the Beyonder was, he was not all-powerful. He was all the power of one universe personified I believe. The Presence is the all-powerful deity of an endless multiverse. He is simply a way of saying God without saying God. If he "loses", such as failing to stop the Anti-Monitor in the Crisis on Infinite Earths, its only because he restricts himself regarding what he will or won't do.

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
How could anyone believe this babble....

Who knows... maybe they believe in hocus pocus or magical blue genies too.

Originally posted by Nihilist
mhmm He/She is not in this thread.

You know what i meant

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
How could anyone believe this babble....

I really don't care what you think. I will try to listen far smarter, intelligent, loving people in Jesus and other spiritual masters than someone like you (which is more than 90% of people on Earth), for whom I am pretty sure is a meat eater, which makes you cold blood killer, slaughterer.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I really don't care what you think. I will try to listen far smarter, intelligent, loving people in Jesus and other spiritual masters than someone like you (which is more than 90% of people on Earth), for whom I am pretty sure is a meat eater, which makes you cold blood killer, slaughterer.

Oh dear....

I'm not even going to touch this. You sound just like those annoying
people that come to my front door from time to time.

And they get told where to go as well....

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
And they get told where to go as well....

Good for you. Really, you are the best.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Good for you. Really, you are the best.

Tell me something, if 2-3 people came to your house preaching
atheism to you, ignoring you politely saying you're not interested,
only to have them ignore you and actually talk over you, how
would you react?

With love and affection? Please...

I believe it's less rude to 'ask' them to leave, rather than closing my
door in their faces...

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
But essentially, The Presence has no form and all-encompassing, similar to the Abrahamic God.
That's not good enough.

The Presence wasn't encompassing Lucifer right before he left creation.

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
Tell me something, if 2-3 people came to your house preaching
atheism to you, ignoring you politely saying you're not interested,
only to have them ignore you and actually talk over you, how
would you react?
How could you preach atheism? It's not a religion.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I really don't care what you think. I will try to listen far smarter, intelligent, loving people in Jesus and other spiritual masters than someone like you (which is more than 90% of people on Earth), for whom I am pretty sure is a meat eater, which makes you cold blood killer, slaughterer.

I am no Mod..thats for sure...but i have always respected you as a poster...you bring religion into a versus thread....that has nothing to do with the comics being discussed..and to start attacking meat eaters well..i dont think its fair to start this here.

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
Tell me something, if 2-3 people came to your house preaching
atheism to you, ignoring you politely saying you're not interested,
only to have them ignore you and actually talk over you, how
would you react?

It's only that the atheist don't come to house and preach that. Anyway, like I said, many who says they are religious they are not and are more fanatical and are not following spiritual masters (most on Earth are like that), but are following corrupted church or temples and not true teaching. Those are not real religious people and only want you to take their side.
As you can see, I make no difference between Islam, Christians, Hare Krishna, because I know that in their true form are absolute truth. Spiritual masters have never been sent to make religion, because religion already existed, it's that they had to revive absolute truth, because it had been manipulated too much. It's the corrupted people that they manipulate with that, with the truth for selfish, material reasons. And then people are manipulated by manipulated bible, Koran or Bhagavad Gita to take you to someone to your own side, which should never be the case.
And when it comes to that, again, a real spiritual master comes.

I've read that yo don't want to touch this theme, so I don't want to have this conversation, except if you would want, but it seems, you don't.

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
I believe it's less rude to 'ask' them to leave, rather than closing my
door in their faces...

But if that would be the case, I would say ''Goodbye'' and close the door, no matter if they would still continue talking. No need for anything rude.

Originally posted by starlock
I am no Mod..thats for sure...but i have always respected you as a poster...you bring religion into a versus thread....that has nothing to do with the comics being discussed..and to start attacking meat eaters well..i dont think its fair to start this here.

I respect you too, starlock.

Yeah, I know, but The Presence was the case and how it is based on Christian God and then it begins. It's just another thread on KMC which goes far from what OP wanted.

Originally posted by starlock
and to start attacking meat eaters well..i dont think its fair to start this here.

I didn't attack a meat eater, but I did say meat eater are killers, which is a fact. Sorry.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have the Lucifer/Sandman/Spectre seires,
there are several issues where it's literally stated by the Vertigo/DC God himself,
that they are his sons (Mike/Lucy) ...
other references from Lucy/Mike & other characters/narration are also mentioned.

btw. ... Humans are called God's children,
more for symbolism rather than actuality,
Humans are just Humans now, but have the potential to be God's children,
but this is when we evolve in death into the next existence,
where we will all be gods, hence, "God's children" ...

Only Jesus is referred to as God's actual son in the Bible.
(in fact, it's literally stated, God's "only begotten son"

True, although from a few comics in the Spectre's it would seem The Word = Jesus. The Word was given a spot by The Voice over the angels. The Presence does have Lucifer and Michael as his sons but he only has one begotten son.

Originally posted by Astner
How could you preach atheism? It's not a religion.

The word 'Preach' can be associated with subject's not only relating to
religion, in case you didn't know!

You can preach religion, or you can preach what you believe to be
moral truth.

Moral truth and religion aren't the same thing!

Originally posted by Xplosive
It's only that the atheist don't come to house and preach that. Anyway, like I said, many who says they are religious they are not and are more fanatical and are not following spiritual masters (most on Earth are like that), but are following corrupted church or temples and not true teaching. Those are not real religious people and only want you to take their side.
As you can see, I make no difference between Islam, Christians, Hare Krishna, because I know that in their true form are absolute truth. Spiritual masters have never been sent to make religion, because religion already existed, it's that they had to revive absolute truth, because it had been manipulated too much. It's the corrupted people that they manipulate with that, with the truth for selfish, material reasons. And then people are manipulated by manipulated bible, Koran or Bhagavad Gita to take you to someone to your own side, which should never be the case.
And when it comes to that, again, a real spiritual master comes.

I've read that yo don't want to touch this theme, so I don't want to have this conversation, except if you would want, but it seems, you don't.



But if that would be the case, I would say ''Goodbye'' and close the door, no matter if they would still continue talking. No need for anything rude.

However i'm coming across, i do respect that everyone has different
beliefs, follow their own moral codes and live life their own ways.

Whether or not i want to have this conversation isn't important,
because this material has potential to offend people if taken the
wrong way, or misconstrued.

We shouldn't be talking about it "here", in this thread is what i'm saying!

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
Moral truth and religion aren't the same thing!

And that is the biggest problem on Earth. The true moral truth you will get from spiritual maters. You can get it also elsewhere, but that is for sure. People on Earth are moralizing themselves mostly based on that they are not killers (didn't kill human and about, you have to survive. Survive to kill another walking being. It doesn't work that way. And how they are hard workers and so on...). But then you ask him, what about animals. And many say, they are not important (and it's hard without meat and you have to eat something. But that is stupid). How can someone moralize about something, when he can't see how wrong is killing animals. How can you see what is wrong, when you are doing wrong? How can alcoholic see, he is an alcoholic (and we know the problem with them is that they sincerely say and mean they are not. But others can see he is, but you can't explain that to him, just can't). When will he realize he is an alcoholic or was? When he stops drinking. Then when time passes, he will see, he truly was, but not when he was an alcoholic.

When meat eater stops eating meat, then he sees how wrong and bad it was. And because of that, he tries to talk to others about that, but other won't take him seriously, and with time he still tries to show them, because of personal experience, because he was also like that, ignorant about that.

People don't realize and how monstrous important is that killing animals and slaughterhouses are one of the worst things that is going on in this world.

I don't want even to preach people about religion, because people are too self centered and don't want to think or listen about that and outside of that as how they been raised. But parents aren't always be right.
Only what I try is to make people see how wrong is killing other persons.

And the fact that you can love an animal as you can love your close friend. Because it's person and we shouldn't be killing other person for selfish reasons.

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
We shouldn't be talking about it "here", in this thread is what i'm saying!

I know and maybe it's the best we stop.

Originally posted by Xplosive
No, not true. Humans are are all God's children and that is actuality and not because of symbolism. We are souls and not humans. We are souls trapped in human body. We are all God's children, literally. We are God's children as demigods are, as Jesus is, as Muhammad is, as fish are, as ants are and bacterias. Every living being is 100% God children. No difference between Jesus and any other living being in that department.



That is, because in our true nature we are godlike, because we are His particles (in quality we are the same to God, but not in quantity). But because we have fallen, that doesn't make us any less of His children than before. It means we have fallen from out true nature and forgotten it. Jesus is one of many true spiritual masters who was sent to revive that memory and to teach who we truly are (among that is that we are Krishna (God) children) and why we are here, in material world and how to return home.
But many are not following Jesus and other spiritual masters. But if you follow Jesus, that automatically means you are following Muhammad, Srila Prabhupada... absolute truth. Jesus teaching was from the beginning manipulated and then by church. One of worse manipulation is killing animals for food.

Please...take this to the religion forum where it belongs.

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
Please...take this to the religion forum where it belongs.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8391/newmutantssaga26.th.jpg

Originally posted by SupremeMan
As powerful as the Beyonder was, he was not all-powerful. He was all the power of one universe personified I believe. The Presence is the all-powerful deity of an endless multiverse. He is simply a way of saying God without saying God. If he "loses", such as failing to stop the Anti-Monitor in the Crisis on Infinite Earths, its only because he restricts himself regarding what he will or won't do.

PR Beyonder was the sum total of a universe that was trillions and trillions of times largers than the entire Marvel multiverse.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
PR Beyonder was the sum total of a universe that was trillions and trillions of times largers than the entire Marvel multiverse.

So does he beat TOAA??

No. There wasn't a well established "God" concept in those days though.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
No. There wasn't a well established "God" concept in those days though.

He still does not beat any comics God, agreed?

Originally posted by kevdude
He still does not beat any comics God, agreed?
I think he'd kick MoM's ass. Not enough feats. To me he stalemates TOAA or The Presence.

Originally posted by kevdude
He still does not beat any comics God, agreed?

Disagreed.

what feats does TOAA have?!

Is that a joke?? Your asking for a feat??

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
what feats does TOAA have?!

Not having his power taken by Carnivean, not being unable to deal with Synnar, and not inventing Superman to name a few things.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Not having his power taken by Carnivean, not being unable to deal with Synnar, and not inventing Superman to name a few things.

Where do you get this at?? not inventing Superman? Everything is within the plan. Beyonder wanking...

Originally posted by Enyalus
Not having his power taken by Carnivean, not being unable to deal with Synnar, and not inventing Superman to name a few things.

You mean the Presence right?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Not having his power taken by Carnivean, not being unable to deal with Synnar, and not inventing Superman to name a few things.
The not inventing superman thing was a great feat by TOAA. :-D

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
You mean the Presence right?
He wanted feats of TOAA's. I gave him some anti-feats.

Originally posted by Enyalus
not inventing Superman to name a few things. I piss my pants

Originally posted by kgkg
I piss my pants
So do I. But don't tell people on the internet about it.






Until now, I guess.

This Presence guy sounds powerful

Originally posted by kgkg
This Presence guy sounds powerful
I think a bearded Gandhi would lose to Donny Osmond every time.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I think a bearded Gandhi would lose to Donny Osmond every time.

Truthery. Disco Donny is cooler.

Originally posted by kevdude
So does he beat TOAA??

It's the TOAA who made PR Beyonder all that.

Can Beyonder defeat THOTI??

If he can, then he can defeat The Presence.
Otherwise, he get's omfgwtfpwned.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Can Beyonder defeat THOTI??

No.

People seem to confuse the writer with fictional beings.

The One-Above-All is depicted in "Sensational Spider-Man #40" as a homeless man. Note this being has no connections to the writers of the "outside-world".

The-One-Above-All (fictional) > Presence (fictional) > classic Beyonder

Handbooks and similar sources suggest that The-One-Above-All is supreme within the Marvel Omniverse, and it's creator. The cosmic feats in Marvel, to my knowledge, extends the cosmic feats in DC therefore The-One-Above-All would be greater than the Presence. Other than that the Presence has shown some severe flaws, both in Vertigo and in the mainstream DCU (I'm looking at Synnar who was able to escape the Presence's omniscience.)

To say that both The-One-Above-All (fictional) and the Presence is equal due to them both being supreme is to commit the golden meaning fallacy.

bump

should be even steven, assuming the presence=overmonitor which I accept despite the convoluted apparent contradictions

Originally posted by 753
should be even steven, assuming the presence=overmonitor which I accept despite the convoluted apparent contradictions

How could the Pressence = PM? PM didn't even know the DC universe existed.

how dare PM not be knowledgeable of The Presence, that's just rude

Originally posted by Golgo13
How could the Pressence = PM? PM didn't even know the DC universe existed. yeah I know. its full of holes

it was explored in depth here but end result still wasnt very conclusively http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t508232.html

writers just piled concepts on top of concepts neglecting consistency

Originally posted by Jynocidus
how dare PM not be knowledgeable of The Presence, that's just rude
The Presence wasn't in the Superman Beyond story-line. The writer more than likely didn't even think of him while writing it.

The cosmologies of Marvel and DC aren't as structured and universal as people tend to believe. Now, I'm not telling people to stop thinking and give up on making sense of it. But don't act like the authors of DC put great thought into the lack of the Presence's role in the Superman Beyond story-line.

yeah they just make new shit up and ignore previous characters and concepts. sometimes someone is nice enough to clean some shit by retcon like the chaos king being oblivion after all.

I like that it's not structured, because it can limit stories. Look at Starlin's story about Synnar and his maker, which contradicts the Presence.

Originally posted by Astner

People seem to confuse the writer with fictional beings.

The One-Above-All is depicted in "Sensational Spider-Man #40" as a
homeless man. Note this being has no connections to the writers of
the "outside-world".
I have to disagree with this good friend.

There's no doubt the TOAA's half that appeared in Spidey #40
was a representative avatar of the Writer.

I have on panel proof if need be as always.
Originally posted by Astner

The-One-Above-All (fictional) > Presence (fictional) > classic Beyonder

Imo, classic Beyonder is/was above any power that related to the Marvel totality.
(including THOTI which is the next greatest thing ever)

Imo, only the Primal Monitor truly compares to Shooter's vision of the Beyonder.

Now,
I also apply an understanding when Supreme powers confront each other,
it should be auto stalemate.

We'll never see two supreme beings battle in comics (even DC vs
Marvel the result was a never-ending stalemate) so there's no point
in babbling about which Supreme being is greater.

Now,
I don't understand the relationship between the Primal Monitor and Presence,
but one's gotta be greater if they are indeed separate entities.
(there can only be One supreme power within a company)

In the Beyonder's case, he was the Supreme power ...

... ridiculous as it may be Jim Shooter stated Beyonder discovered him along with Marvel:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1799763_jim2mj1.jpg

"Beyonder's discovery of our Universe"

"We introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"

------------------------------------------------------


This is probably why ol' Jimmy had Stan Lee bowing to the Beyonder:

(left bottom corner ... top of his index finger ... Beyonder's right hand)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15315001_Beyonder_TOAA.jpg

(top right corner)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15315002_Beyonder_TOAA2.jpg



-------------------------------------------------

You know, I've thought of this before,
but on the strength of descriptions Astner,
if TOAA was a character in play at the time,
then TOAA was < Beyonder according to Shooter.

He didn't say that exactly but blatantly implied it in this interview.

^so, if i understand you correctly, you're saying that the beyonder's dimension wasn't just outside the marvel multiverse, but that it wasn't even considered a part of the marvel omniverse? i ask because toaa is credited with being the supreme marvel-based power. i would extend that domain to include any book ever published by marvel. even the new universe universe was considered (imo at least) to be part of that omniversal domain and as such a part of the toaa's purview. so, since the beyonder and his realm, is part of marvel, it seems natural that it would fall under the purview of the toaa. and, shooter's artistic shots notwithstanding, any other conclusion would appear to be, imo anyway, self-evidently paradoxical... shrug

It's best not to give it too much thought.

Just know that Doom > Beyonder.

Canon.

^^ Non-Existent Future-Self of Doom gets the Street Fighter cheese win of all time.

Originally posted by leonidas

^so, if i understand you correctly, you're saying that the
beyonder's dimension wasn't just outside the marvel multiverse, but
that it wasn't even considered a part of the marvel omniverse?
Insane, but correct. (or at-least that's the way it looks)

Shooter said in that interview,
he was another whole Multiverse, (when Marvel was only a multiverse)
and he was God before Genesis (whatever blasphemous meaning that holds)
and as you already know he discovered Shooter as well.
Stan lee bowing to Beyonder.

Imo, this is madness ... so I rather look at it as Beyonder > writer/artist avatars.

That's also paradoxical but hey ... it is what it is.
Originally posted by leonidas

i ask because toaa is credited with being the supreme marvel-
based power. i would extend that domain to include any book ever
published by marvel. even the new universe universe was
considered (imo at least) to be part of that omniversal domain and
as such a part of the toaa's purview. so, since the beyonder and
his realm, is part of marvel, it seems natural that it would fall under
the purview of the toaa. and, shooter's artistic shots
notwithstanding, any other conclusion would appear to be, imo
anyway, self-evidently paradoxical...
I agree. If there ever was a retcon in order .. here it is.

shooter's comments can be interpreted as him including the real world in the list of things beyonder was beyond or just using the term 'us' to speak of marvel earth, identifying with it. the latter is more likely and less absurd.

beyonder was only ever shown investigating the 616. there wasnt even a good moment of cheesy 4th wall shattering in which the writers and artists are drawn into the comic.

Pretty sure he explored other universes, but as far as the writer thing, you're right.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Non-Existent Future-Self of Doom gets the Street Fighter cheese win of all time.


Insane, but correct. (or at-least that's the way it looks)

Shooter said in that interview,
he was another whole Multiverse, (when Marvel was only a multiverse)
and he was God before Genesis (whatever blasphemous meaning that holds)
and as you already know he discovered Shooter as well.
Stan lee bowing to Beyonder.

Imo, this is madness ... so I rather look at it as Beyonder > writer/artist avatars.

That's also paradoxical but hey ... it is what it is.

I agree. If there ever was a retcon in order .. here it is.

huh, interesting. not sure how to credit those thouhgts. as usual, mindset may well be right in this case.....

do you happen to know where that interview can be found? thought i'd read it but i don't remember some of that info. was it in a book? at a convention? i do recall some implications that might have led one to believe the beyonder was above even RL universe, (which i always took as tongue-in-cheek shooter just trying to p!ss even MORE people off....) but i don't recall that interview you mentioned.

Originally posted by 753

beyonder was only ever shown investigating the 616.
Beyonder explored the entire Multiverse while sitting in his bedroom.
He also had to meddle with every iota of existence before erasing Death.
Originally posted by 753

there wasnt even a good moment of cheesy 4th wall shattering in
which the writers and artists are drawn into the comic.
Well as ridiculous uber as Shooter made Beyonder,
he did try and give it a sense of seriousness.
Throwing in blatant 4th wall garbage would've thrown that idea out the window imo.

I think including two sneaky images of Stan as one of Beyonder's slaves
is good enough.
Originally posted by leonidas

do you happen to know where that interview can be found?
thought i'd read it but i don't remember some of that info. was it in a
book? at a convention? i do recall some implications that might have
led one to believe the beyonder was above even RL universe, (which i
always took as tongue-in-cheek shooter just trying to p!ss even MORE
people off....) but i don't recall that interview you mentioned.
It's from Marvel Age #52

As you probably know but others may not,
Marvel Age is an official Marvel title (issue #'s and all)
that highlighted upcoming stories
(including comments from writers of said stories)
and also further details about stories that had already been published.
(like Secret Wars)

In another issue, I found Starlin's interview about the Infinity Gauntlet.

More info here concerning Marvel Age:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Age

* note Leo: Shooter never literally said Beyonder was above him,
I got that from him saying Betyonder discovered him along with everything else,
and if Beyonder was so much more than everything else,
well then ...

Originally posted by Mr Master
Shooter said in that interview,
he was another whole Multiverse, (when Marvel was only a multiverse)
and he was God before Genesis (whatever blasphemous meaning that holds)
and as you already know he discovered Shooter as well.
Stan lee bowing to Beyonder.

Imo, this is madness ... so I rather look at it as Beyonder > writer/artist avatars.

That's also paradoxical but hey ... it is what it is. I remember when I used to bring up the notion that some characters were portrayed as more powerful than their real world writers, and you laughed at the idea... You called it a cartoonie joke that wasn't meant to be taken seriously, iirc. But if your opinion regarding the aforementioned has changed, then you should know that Mopee(a 5-D denizen) has some of the best feats out there...

Not only was Mopee responsible for creating the 'big guns' in both Marvel and DC(ie. Flash, Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, X-Men, etc.) but he also introduced Jim Shooter's mother and father, thus making him responsible for the creation of Jim Shooter himself:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15316995_mopee.jpg

So really, you should thank Mopee. Without him the Beyonder would be non-existent.

Originally posted by leonidas
huh, interesting. not sure how to credit those thouhgts. as usual, mindset may well be right in this case.....

do you happen to know where that interview can be found? thought i'd read it but i don't remember some of that info. was it in a book? at a convention? i do recall some implications that might have led one to believe the beyonder was above even RL universe, (which i always took as tongue-in-cheek shooter just trying to p!ss even MORE people off....) but i don't recall that interview you mentioned. Here's the whole interview:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15316667_12.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15316668_13.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15316669_14.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15316670_15.jpg

Marvel Age #27.

Originally posted by Galan007

I remember when I used to bring up the notion that some
characters were portrayed as more powerful than their real world
writers, and you laughed at the idea... You called it a cartoonie joke
that wasn't meant to be taken seriously, iirc. But if your opinion
regarding the aforementioned has changed, then you should know
that Mopee(a 5-D denizen) has some of the best feats out there...

Not only was Mopee responsible for creating the 'big guns' in both
Marvel and DC(ie. Flash, Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, X-Men,
etc.) but he also introduced Jim Shooter's mother and father, thus
making him responsible for the creation of Jim Shooter himself:

So really, you should thank Mopee. Without him the Beyonder would be non-existent.
... Mopee's the shit

But seriously, I'll still laugh at it now, (not in mockery though)
just like I would laugh at Beyonder being over Shooter.

I'm just entertaining the whole madness my friend,
I wasn't going to put this discussion into practice
concerning Beyonder vs threads.
We're just having a fun discussion.

You know I put Beyonder = THOTI ...
but I have submitted that one could argue Beyonder > THOTI imo.

Originally posted by Galan007

Marvel Age #27.
... my bad Leo.

Originally posted by Mr Master
... Mopee's the shit

But seriously, I'll still laugh at it now, (not in mockery though)
just like I would laugh at Beyonder being over Shooter.

I'm just entertaining the whole madness my friend,
I wasn't going to put this discussion into practice
concerning Beyonder vs threads.
We're just having a fun discussion.

You know I put Beyonder = THOTI ...
but I have submitted that one could argue Beyonder > THOTI imo.


... my bad Leo. I know. I have just been looking for a reason to post that Mopee scan.

Originally posted by Galan007
I remember when I used to bring up the notion that some characters were portrayed as more powerful than their real world writers, and you laughed at the idea... You called it a cartoonie joke that wasn't meant to be taken seriously, iirc. But if your opinion regarding the aforementioned has changed, then you should know that Mopee(a 5-D denizen) has some of the best feats out there...

Not only was Mopee responsible for creating the 'big guns' in both Marvel and DC(ie. Flash, Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, X-Men, etc.) but he also introduced Jim Shooter's mother and father, thus making him responsible for the creation of Jim Shooter himself:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15316995_mopee.jpg

So really, you should thank Mopee. Without him the Beyonder would be non-existent.

Here's the whole interview:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15316667_12.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15316668_13.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15316669_14.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15316670_15.jpg

Marvel Age #27.

muchos gracias compadre. i used to love marvel age. i confess to always wondering just how honest the interviewed people were being. and i def read that article (think i have MA 27 in my basement somewhere actually.....)

never saw the mopee stuff though. priceless!

shooter was an interesting dude. he did like to explore the the biggest guns. even gold key solar was god-like. and he just really didn't seem to give a rat's a$$ who he pissed off. i can respect that. lol

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have to disagree with this good friend.
The post was made four years ago, even I disagree with it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have to disagree with this good friend.

There's no doubt the TOAA's half that appeared in Spidey #40
was a representative avatar of the Writer.

I have on panel proof if need be as always.

Imo, classic Beyonder is/was above any power that related to the Marvel totality.
(including THOTI which is the next greatest thing ever)

Imo, only the Primal Monitor truly compares to Shooter's vision of the Beyonder.

Now,
I also apply an understanding when Supreme powers confront each other,
it should be auto stalemate.

We'll never see two supreme beings battle in comics (even DC vs
Marvel the result was a never-ending stalemate) so there's no point
in babbling about which Supreme being is greater.

Now,
I don't understand the relationship between the Primal Monitor and Presence,
but one's gotta be greater if they are indeed separate entities.
(there can only be One supreme power within a company)

In the Beyonder's case, he was the Supreme power ...

... ridiculous as it may be Jim Shooter stated Beyonder discovered him along with Marvel:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1799763_jim2mj1.jpg

"Beyonder's discovery of our Universe"

"We introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"


You're misinterpreting that statement. Shooter was obviously speaking from a narrative perspective. You're taking him referring to Marvel characters("us" and openlybackhandedly implying that Shooter's comments cover the RL universe as well.
Originally posted by Mr Master

This is probably why ol' Jimmy had Stan Lee bowing to the Beyonder:

(left bottom corner ... top of his index finger ... Beyonder's right hand)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15315001_Beyonder_TOAA.jpg

(top right corner)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15315002_Beyonder_TOAA2.jpg



-------------------------------------------------

You know, I've thought of this before,
but on the strength of descriptions Astner,
if TOAA was a character in play at the time,
then TOAA was < Beyonder according to Shooter.

He didn't say that exactly but blatantly implied it in this interview.
I don't think that's really Stan Lee. It's probably just an average joe but don't know for sure.

Originally posted by Astner

The post was made four years ago, even I disagree with it.
... Pardon me Astner, I realized the timeframe after the fact.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

You're misinterpreting that statement. Shooter was obviously
speaking from a narrative perspective. You're taking him referring to
Marvel characters("us" and openly backhandedly
implying that Shooter's comments cover the RL universe as well.
How about: You're misinterpreting that statement.
I'm not "backhanding" anything.
I'm just stating verbatim what Shooter said,
what he meant by that can only be answered by him.
That aside, writers speak about characters like their real all the time,
it's not surprising.

Anyway, I see it the way I see it, as you do the same ... I love kmc.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

I don't think that's really Stan Lee.
It's probably just an average joe but don't know for sure.
Perhaps, but it's coincidental how the only face that's drawn Twice is his.

The First scan it represents all people of the world, (that image is clearly his)
the Second scan represents the most powerful men/women of the world,
which is the heroes/villains and 4 non-powered humans
(president Reagan, Frank the biggest drug dealer,
don't know the old head beneath Ultron, and apparently Stan Lee again)

Anyway, I could be wrong, but considering that his visage was included in both pages,
imo, I find it highly unlikely it was a fortuitous act on the artist's part.

I think this type of threads of omnipotent beings while informative is kind of silly to ask:

"Who is the most omnipotent of this two omnipotent beings?"

IMO anyway.

As for who wins. I think PRB is more omnipotent than the Omnipotent Presence

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/GIFS/1245227615_colin_farrel.gif

Sorry if this is considered necroing, in some forums i lurk in 6 months is acceptable.

Point is... beyonder is stated on panel to not be, himself, part of "the realm of existance", and also that his power is "millons of time more than all the rest of the power in the multiverse combined", THOTI is part of the multiverse, then, Beyonder >(x1000000+)>THOTI, he is alas stated to be the God of a universe that still is not. Now among all the things that still are not but can be, exist a being or concept which is more powerful than prescence, TOAA. Im pretty sure the answer is yes, then beyonder is without a doubt more powerful than TOAA or Prescence.

Now, even if IRL beyonder is a fictional character designed and printed by marvel (and thus part of marvel's multi-verse), the fictional character per se, is repeatedly stated as not being part of said multi-verse, so he is not a creation of TOAA.

edit: Didn't mean to bump this, I was actually copying my old post with scans from it.

Sorry, yall can ignore.

You don't need the Presence to beat the PR Beyonder. The Presence son Lucifer Morningstar in mortal form will just talk to Beyonder into erasing itself from existence. That is how a bad azz Lucifer M. Is.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Asmodel freakin' lost to a Superman who didn't have super strength. Asmodel sucks at life. Originally posted by Enyalus
Asmodel freakin' lost to a Superman who didn't have super strength. Asmodel sucks at life. i think presence will win here

TOAA is a hobo that looks like he has leprosy. I dont get the appeal to have the most powerful person in Marvel look like this.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/28028/675919-the_homeless_god_12.jpg

Stalemate both are Omnipotent.