Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Hi all,
I dont know how relavent this may be to you, but this is a matter of British heritage as well as spiritual belief.

I stayed with my cousin last weekend, and we decided yesterday to go up to stonehenge as we had stumbled across some thing on the internet about a blessing ritual there.

So in the car we got an drove over 100 miles, with two hours in the car.

When we arrived the situation was very different from that we had read about.

At present there is an Archaeological dig up there looking at the human remains of the ancient guardians of the henge.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/stonehenge/

The druid and pagan societies were lead to believe that the bones would be moved to another hole near the henge and it was agreed that one of the covens would before a blessing on the bones.

However it soon became a very serious matter when we had all formed a circle. several people spoke on the matter:

Head of the druids: Arthur Pendragon (Who stated any one from the druid order or pagan groups present who intended to step foot on the ground of the henge in support for what the archaeologists planned to do would be ex-communicated!)

Stag Lord Taloc from the Dolmen Grove

A member of the Knight Templar (very over dramatic but quite impressive that it had drawn their attention as well)

We were all made aware that the people conducting the dig at the henge had no intention AT ALL of placing the bones back in the ground where they choose to be, where they have been for hundreds of years.
They are the magical connection to the henge, a place of great spiritual focus.

Following that the group who were to perform the blessing had their chance to speak and stated that they had not been made aware that there were no plans to put the bones back where they belong, and they felt very strongly that this was not acceptable and were very very upset about the whole issue.

Following that we opened the circle and calle dthe quarters. The ceremony was lead by Taloc and the aim was to make the gods and the ancients awaken and see what was happening in one of their scared henges and to stop it!

we then moved the procession further towards the Henge but not on the grounds of the henge. We closed the circle and departed.

I feel it is a violation of history, faith and heritage! Not to mention the wishes of the ancients who requested that their bodies lay in guardianship and protection of the henge!

British heritage is slowly being stripped away from us, this takes away our claim to who we are a people.

other countries embrace and preserve their heritage in its natural place, where as here in the UK they seem to think it would serve people better, and be better preserved in a plastic box in a museum!

This is like saying to the christian church, we want to dig up the bodies of the monarchs in canterbury cathedral and put them in a museum!

Its absolutely outrageous! the dead should be left to rest in peace, to do what they wished to do.
In this case they were to guard a magical sanctuary, and should be left to do so.
These archaeologists are nothing more than grave robbers!

Those that were gathered at the henge and myself have no problems with them taking a few of the bones for testing and then having them returned, but they want to take the ALL of them and NOT return them.

the general feeling amoungst the Pagan and Druid societies, is , PURE violation, outrage and disbelief that they wish to do this.

how many ancient Egyptian artifacts are in the London museum?

way too many they should have been left where they were found.

do the people doing this research have the right for you to not benefit from their findings?

Haha, weird lunatics.

Hope that illustrates the idiocy of random spiritual believes to some more people.

Originally posted by Lara
other countries embrace and preserve their heritage in its natural place, where as here in the UK they seem to think it would serve people better, and be better preserved in a plastic box in a museum!

what nation's practices are you referring to specifically?

With the exception of dismantling monuments, most nations have museums. Egypt doesn't want its artifact back to put them into the ground

*sigh* I guess I can understand why people want to put them back. *shrug*

ok I'll put it this way:

If your dying wish was to be buried in a specific place because it had specific meaning to you of great importance.

would you want so bunch of disrespecful grave robbers from generations down the line, come and dig you up and move you to some random place for others to gaupe at you and have no idea of who you were or what you did? you'd just be a skeleton in a see through box.

ok I'll put it this way:

If your dying wish was to be buried in a specific place because it had specific meaning to you of great importance.

would you want so bunch of disrespecful grave robbers from generations down the line, come and dig you up and move you to some random place for others to gaupe at you and have no idea of who you were or what you did? you'd just be a skeleton in a see through box.

I was being specific when I said other countries because there are many. Egypt only saw the money!

Originally posted by Lara
ok I'll put it this way:

If your dying wish was to be buried in a specific place because it had specific meaning to you of great importance.

would you want so bunch of disrespecful grave robbers from generations down the line, come and dig you up and move you to some random place for others to gaupe at you and have no idea of who you were or what you did? you'd just be a skeleton in a see through box.

I was being specific when I said other countries because there are many. Egypt only saw the money!


I wouldn't want that. Cause I'd be dead. Corpses shouldn't have any freaking rights. I assume that Stonehenge is public property? Then the government should be allowed to do whatever they want with any of it.



The government shouldn't exist though, just sayin.

ok so your telling me you'd be happy to dig up your grandmother and put her in a museum?????

there are still druids around?

Originally posted by Lara
ok so your telling me you'd be happy to dig up your grandmother and put her in a museum?????

As long as I don't have to do it.


But even if not, it's a different situation, because she is on a graveyard where I (my parents) pay money for her to stay. Therefore we have a contract with a private owner of land and the corpse is, basically, ours. The druids lived thousands of years ago, no one owns their bodies. And sure as hell no one pays money for them to be buried on public property.


Also, my grandma's are still alive. But that's beside the point, I figure.

Originally posted by Lara
ok I'll put it this way:

If your dying wish was to be buried in a specific place because it had specific meaning to you of great importance.

would you want so bunch of disrespecful grave robbers from generations down the line, come and dig you up and move you to some random place for others to gaupe at you and have no idea of who you were or what you did? you'd just be a skeleton in a see through box.

I was being specific when I said other countries because there are many. Egypt only saw the money!

Yeah I know. Do you have any proof they didn't want to be removed?

Originally posted by Lara
ok so your telling me you'd be happy to dig up your grandmother and put her in a museum?????

*sigh* My beef is that....I don't want to say it....I just don't see what connection you have with these dead people....

Originally posted by Strangelove
there are still druids around?

Well yeah.....

Originally posted by Lara
ok so your telling me you'd be happy to dig up your grandmother and put her in a museum?????

2 = 1 ?

Originally posted by Lara
would you want so bunch of disrespecful grave robbers from generations down the line, come and dig you up and move you to some random place for others to gaupe at you and have no idea of who you were or what you did?

disrespectful grave robbers?

I'll ask again, do these researchers have the right to forbid you from gaining anything from their study of these bones?

and just as a point, I could have used derogatory language to refer to the bones, yet I did not. Surely you can see the difference between archeology and robbery, so lets not make unnecessarily divisive comments.

also, the point of putting things into a museum and researching them, is to find out, exactly, who these people were and to present them in a narrative that excites people about that time period.

Otzi the iceman, for example, was useless until studied. This is the case in essentially every example of people being found. Far more can be ascertained about them from the study of their bones than from leaving them in the ground, and the general public is more interested in seeing the bones in the museum where the historians have presented them in an entertaining way.

Originally posted by Lara
you'd just be a skeleton in a see through box.

as opposed to bones in the ground?

id much rather be clean and of some cultural importance.

Originally posted by Lara
I was being specific when I said other countries because there are many.

ok

be more specific then

which practices of which country do you find more appealing?

Originally posted by Lara
Egypt only saw the money!

preposterous. everything you know about egypt you owe to researchers.

Originally posted by Lara
ok I'll put it this way:

If your dying wish was to be buried in a specific place because it had specific meaning to you of great importance.

would you want so bunch of disrespecful grave robbers from generations down the line, come and dig you up and move you to some random place for others to gaupe at you and have no idea of who you were or what you did? you'd just be a skeleton in a see through box.

Interesting thought, I've often thought that excavating burial sites might be a bit, disrespectful...

However...the Druid Chief...isnt he called Merlin or Arthur or something.

Why should anyone care about your crazy beliefs?

Originally posted by Lara
ok so your telling me you'd be happy to dig up your grandmother and put her in a museum?????

what is there of archeological importance necessitating this?

or, are you asking if, say in 100-300 years, the place my grandmother is buried has become an archeological site of interest to researchers around the world, people want to dig her up in hopes of finding out more about her life and our culture in general, and then want to respectfully display her in a way that interests the world in her and her period of time and preserve her body for many more generations than the earth itself would...

or, are you saying that your superstitions should be enforced on everyone?

(and the obvious answer to your question is that, should there be a reason for it, dig her up)

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Why should anyone care about your crazy beliefs?

...aren't you one of them people that if someone said that about Christians you'd go crazy?

Really though, Lara, why should they?

Originally posted by inimalist

or, are you saying that your superstitions should be enforced on everyone?

Well if she has proof that the ancient people didn't want to be removed then she would have a point IMO.

Originally posted by Bardock42
...aren't you one of them people that if someone said that about Christians you'd go crazy?

*sigh* Irony . . . it's irony . . .

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Why should anyone care about your crazy beliefs?

Well if its your body...or does the body belong to the state...?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Well if its your body...or does the body belong to the state...?

Like once I'm dead?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Like once I'm dead?

Yes.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
*sigh* Irony . . . it's irony . . .

I'm sure.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Well if its your body...or does the body belong to the state...?

I am of the opinion that your body belongs to who you gave it to in your last will. If that's not given it belongs by default to the first who claims it, in most societies that would be the government (having the most guns) and then, by extension, the person the government gives the body to. Except for the first part I believe that's also how it is handled in most western societies.

It doesn't really matter though as 2000 year old bones are a whole different matter than your Aunt Lilly that died while Snowboarding on the Mount Everest.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Yes.

Sure. I'd be dead and not able to care.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well if she has proof that the ancient people didn't want to be removed then she would have a point IMO.

I don't see why...

she might have a moral point for people who believe there is something supernatural about corpses, but really, its decaying organic matter with no desires.

I can see if, say, a native band, that still exists and still was using a burial site, didn't want that site uncovered, they may have a legitimate argument. But stonehenge, like Bardock said, isn't owned or used by people for this any longer. There are no people who own the dead corpses, and obviously corpses can't be given human rights.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I am of the opinion that your body belongs to who you gave it to in your last will. If that's not given it belongs by default to the first who claims it, in most societies that would be the government (having the most guns) and then, by extension, the person the government gives the body to. Except for the first part I believe that's also how it is handled in most western societies.

Seems fair I suppose, so if you want your body protected- you leave it too your estate? How long does that protection last though? Until noone is around to defend it?

I guess, that is the only practical way to go about it- because people will keep digging up bodies...then again, in modern times if we document medically all there is to know about our bodies, state of health etc- it should greatly limit a future cultures need to excavate bodies.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Sure. I'd be dead and not able to care.

A body is a body in most major religions and atheism...once its dead its dead. However, what about respect for the person who it once was?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Seems fair I suppose, so if you want your body protected- you leave it too your estate? How long does that protection last though? Until noone is around to defend it?

Yeah, like with every property I guess.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I guess, that is the only practical way to go about it- because people will keep digging up bodies...then again, in modern times if we document medically all there is to know about our bodies, state of health etc- it should greatly limit a future cultures need to excavate bodies.

Perhaps. Though, here's hoping that it won't be a big deal in the future anyways.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
A body is a body in most major religions and atheism...once its dead its dead. However, what about respect for the person who it once was?

Being dead? No real reason for that.

If something is left to say what the person would like to have happen it should at least be considered though.

So...do Medical Institutions have a right to dead bodies...what with the huge donor shortage...

Originally posted by inimalist
I don't see why...

she might have a moral point for people who believe there is something supernatural about corpses, but really, its decaying organic matter with no desires.

I can see if, say, a native band, that still exists and still was using a burial site, didn't want that site uncovered, they may have a legitimate argument. But stonehenge, like Bardock said, isn't owned or used by people for this any longer. There are no people who own the dead corpses, and obviously corpses can't be given human rights.

I think thats reasonable, but to be fair shes not saying they shouldn't be studied but they should be studied and put back. It seems both points are valid.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So...do Medical Institutions have a right to dead bodies...what with the huge donor shortage...

Yup. But the law says different as far as I know and the families can work to prevent the body from being used to save other people's lives.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So...do Medical Institutions have a right to dead bodies...what with the huge donor shortage...

I think inimalist and I disagree on that subject, it came up before. I personally believe that they don't have a "right" to the bodies at all. They should probably be first in line for any bodies that the government has to take care of, but if family or friends claim the body or especially if the person did not want that to happen to their body it shouldn't happen. Though, I think the question is even better when you talk about organ donors, and not only medical research.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I think thats reasonable, but to be fair shes not saying they shouldn't be studied but they should be studied and put back. It seems both points are valid.

fair enough

I disagree, more because I care about research more than superstition (thats not meant to be as dismissive as it sounds), but it is a compromise

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think inimalist and I disagree on that subject, it came up before. I personally believe that they don't have a "right" to the bodies at all. They should probably be first in line for any bodies that the government has to take care of, but if family or friends claim the body or especially if the person did not want that to happen to their body it shouldn't happen. Though, I think the question is even better when you talk about organ donors, and not only medical research.

I'm not sure how much we disagree. In theory, a corpse is an object, and should be left to the next of kin, much like property is if not specifically designated by the will. People obviously should have the right to say they do not want their body to be harvested. However, once they die, their body is now the property of the family, so if they want to disregard their wishes, all the power to them.

We may disagree about the application in a modern nanny state. I also assume Germany has some degree of public health, which also affects this, imho. I think an opt out system is better than an opt in system, but neither are very good in an idealistic world.

Originally posted by inimalist
I don't see why...

she might have a moral point for people who believe there is something supernatural about corpses, but really, its decaying organic matter with no desires.

I can see if, say, a native band, that still exists and still was using a burial site, didn't want that site uncovered, they may have a legitimate argument. But stonehenge, like Bardock said, isn't owned or used by people for this any longer. There are no people who own the dead corpses, and obviously corpses can't be given human rights.

To be fair, and has already been pointed out, you could say this about ANY belief system.

People just want others to be respectful, at least tolerant, of what they believe.

Christians believe that men fly to heaven on chariots, part seas and turn staffs into snakes, but you would be hard pressed to find one that believed aliens, dragons, or Atlantis are even a possibility.

*shrug*

I think im verging towards that they should be studied and put back my problem is that the pagans can't prove they have any connection or practice what the dead people did.

Modernb Druids don't really know anything about Druidic customs and then theres wiccans....

Originally posted by chithappens
To be fair, and has already been pointed out, you could say this about ANY belief system.

People just want others to be respectful, at least tolerant, of what they believe.

Christians believe that men fly to heaven on chariots, part seas and turn staffs into snakes, but you would be hard pressed to find one that believed aliens, dragons, or Atlantis are even a possibility.

*shrug*

yes, I believe that there should be no artificial or supernatural considerations when looking at research. Be them druids, Christians or aliens.

the "tolerance" argument falls short for me too. there are cultures in the world, and that have existed in the past, that don't agree with divorce.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I think im verging towards that they should be studied and put back my problem is that the pagans can't prove they have any connection or practice what the dead people did.

who decides when there is nothing left to be gained from studying the bones?

are researchers allowed to dig the bones back up, at taxpayer expense, should they decide they need to look at them again?

Ok, point that every one is asking for:

These people were great believers in the power of the land and the sky - nature!. This is where the connection is! This has been proven by stonehenge its-self! it has been deliberated over greatly as to what its use was, I personally feel it had many uses particularly for the equinox's at summer and winter, where the solar and lunar alignments are precise to the arrangement of the stones.

It was a place of great importance, hence its stature and georaphical evidence (which is non-invasive to the land) relating to lay lines and the various other small "mounds" around the main henge.

If you read the first post again then you will find that none of the organisations present yesterday nor myself have any objections to studies being done on the remains, just that they be returned when the studies have been completed.

I have a great respect for the dead as should every one, and no I'm not forcing my view or beliefs on others, This is an expression of some thing I feel quite strongly should be left alone.

IMO once some one has died their body belongs to nature, to the ground. Final wishes are quite prevalent as they can make the differece between a peacfully resting, observative spirit and a wrathful one full of vengance - forgive me for being superstious.

Many people go through live thinking about what they would want to happen to them when they die. ie. funeral plans etc.

The ancient ones had plans too and for specific purposes.

personally I feel they are part of the whole vibe of Stonehenge, a great piece of heritage which I and many others wish to preserve.

And the Henge is still used, with great care and passion by the Druids, and the rest of us as a spiritual and magikal community, to preserve our ancient nature but also learn from it WITHOUT disturbing it.

who decides when there is nothing left to be gained from studying the bones?

are researchers allowed to dig the bones back up, at taxpayer expense, should they decide they need to look at them again?

Originally posted by Lara
Ok, point that every one is asking for:

These people were great believers in the power of the land and the sky - nature!. This is where the connection is! This has been proven by stonehenge its-self! it has been deliberated over greatly as to what its use was, I personally feel it had many uses particularly for the equinox's at summer and winter, where the solar and lunar alignments are precise to the arrangement of the stones.

It was a place of great importance, hence its stature and georaphical evidence (which is non-invasive to the land) relating to lay lines and the various other small "mounds" around the main henge.

If you read the first post again then you will find that none of the organisations present yesterday nor myself have any objections to studies being done on the remains, just that they be returned when the studies have been completed.

I have a great respect for the dead as should every one, and no I'm not forcing my view or beliefs on others, This is an expression of some thing I feel quite strongly should be left alone.

IMO once some one has died their body belongs to nature, to the ground. Final wishes are quite prevalent as they can make the differece between a peacfully resting, observative spirit and a wrathful one full of vengance - forgive me for being superstious.

Many people go through live thinking about what they would want to happen to them when they die. ie. funeral plans etc.

The ancient ones had plans too and for specific purposes.

personally I feel they are part of the whole vibe of Stonehenge, a great piece of heritage which I and many others wish to preserve.

And the Henge is still used, with great care and passion by the Druids, and the rest of us as a spiritual and magikal community, to preserve our ancient nature but also learn from it WITHOUT disturbing it.

I feel what you saying, but the line is hard to tight rope.

I don't disagree but inamlist mentioned that we know what we know about the past because of researchers. They could return the bodies, but they IS disturbing the resting spot.

Originally posted by inimalist
who decides when there is nothing left to be gained from studying the bones?

are researchers allowed to dig the bones back up, at taxpayer expense, should they decide they need to look at them again?

I don't see why not..then they can put them back again. It seems like a sensible comprimise to me.

Originally posted by Lara
Ok, point that every one is asking for:

These people were great believers in the power of the land and the sky - nature!. This is where the connection is! This has been proven by stonehenge its-self! it has been deliberated over greatly as to what its use was, I personally feel it had many uses particularly for the equinox's at summer and winter, where the solar and lunar alignments are precise to the arrangement of the stones.

How do you know that they were?

Originally posted by Lara
It was a place of great importance, hence its stature and georaphical evidence (which is non-invasive to the land) relating to lay lines and the various other small "mounds" around the main henge.

How do you know that it was?

Originally posted by inimalist


the "tolerance" argument falls short for me too. there are cultures in the world, and that have existed in the past, that don't agree with divorce.



C'mon man its not like they are realing hurting anybody by allowing them to be put back after study.

There is no opposition to doing the studies.....

....but they want to take all of the remains, not return them to where they should be. Its a major disturption to a) the land itself b) the purpose of teh Henge C) the magikal relevance of their presence at the henge.

Originally posted by Lara
And the Henge is still used, with great care and passion by the Druids, and the rest of us as a spiritual and magikal community, to preserve our ancient nature but also learn from it WITHOUT disturbing it.

Originally posted by Lara
spiritual and magikal community

Originally posted by Lara
magikal

Is a word from 1908 that has nothing at all to even remotely do with druids.

I'm not SOLEY talking about the druids. Dumb arse. read the whole thread.

If the Druids get Stonehenge...I was the right to bring back witchburnings...

Originally posted by Lara
I'm not SOLEY talking about the druids. Dumb arse. read the whole thread.

Annoying isn't he?

Originally posted by Lara
I'm not SOLEY talking about the druids. Dumb arse. read the whole thread.

Crowley is buried under Stone Henge? Seriously though, anyone who uses the word magick clearly has no real connection to any ancient tradition.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Crowley is buried under Stone Henge? Seriously though, anyone who uses the word magick clearly has no real connection to any ancient tradition.

*sigh*

Originally posted by Lara
There is no opposition to doing the studies.....

....but they want to take all of the remains, not return them to where they should be. Its a major disturption to a) the land itself b) the purpose of teh Henge C) the magikal relevance of their presence at the henge.

a) nonsense, b) possibly, but 2000 year old purposes should not interfere with modern dealings and c) I am inclined to say nonsense, but instead I shall just say that it is unproven and should also not interfere with government policy.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh*

They should also be raped, murdered, skinned and then fed to animals, but that's completely beside the point.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Is a word from 1908 that has nothing at all to even remotely do with druids.

That may be so, but as religions progress new ideas and practices can be created...

Originally posted by Bardock42
a) nonsense, b) possibly, but 2000 year old purposes should not interfere with modern dealings and c) I am inclined to say nonsense, but instead I shall just say that it is unproven and should also not interfere with government policy.

Well to be fair, we don't know what it was used for exactly but it was important. Usually when people get buried they don't want to be removed. We could see the present Druids and pagans as people carrying on that tradition even if we don't know exactly what SH is used for.

Studying the bones and putting them back is a good comprimise, if they had said we don't want them moved that would have been unfair.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I don't see why not..then they can put them back again. It seems like a sensible comprimise to me.

when do you think the most likely time for artifacts to be destroyed is?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
C'mon man its not like they are realing hurting anybody by allowing them to be put back after study.

any person, no, not at all. But repeated digs does threaten stonehenge itself, not to mention the bones.

Originally posted by Lara
There is no opposition to doing the studies.....

who decides when the studies are done

Originally posted by Lara
....but they want to take all of the remains, not return them to where they should be.

"should", in the way you are using it, would actually be better put as "where they wanted, hundreds of years ago to be, and where modern people who aren't the researchers think they should stay for superstitious reasons."

like I said, I don't think superstition should prevent research.

Originally posted by Lara
Its a major disturption to a) the land itself

putting the bones back would be moreso.

Originally posted by Lara
b) the purpose of teh Henge C) the magikal relevance of their presence at the henge.

both are irrelevant

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well to be fair, we don't know what it was used for exactly but it was important. Usually when people get buried they don't want to be removed. We could see the present Druids and pagans as people carrying on that tradition even if we don't know exactly what SH is used for.

Studying the bones and putting them back is a good comprimise, if they had said we don't want them moved that would have been unfair. There's no reason to compromise. It's the government's property.

How long do you propose the bones may be outside of the ground? Does the tax payer have to pay for the bones to be put back? When new discoveries come along can the bones be taken out again? What can you do about them losing research value by being transported in and out of the ground as well as being contaminated by the ground further? Will the taxpayers have to pay everytime the bones need to be researched? What about the harm done by the digging, that will multiply with numerous different diggings for putting them back and getting them again, etc.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Does the tax payer have to pay for the bones to be put back? Will the taxpayers have to pay everytime the bones need to be researched?

without a doubt

hows that for not enforcing superstition on people

Arthur Pendragon, Stag Lord and Knight Templars? WTF, are these people serious?

What do druids actually believe?

Is their a religous reason they might object to having their bones excavated?

Originally posted by Robtard
Arthur Pendragon, Stag Lord and Knight Templars? WTF, are these people serious?

hey, its magik!

I believe it has to do with the "protectors of the Henge".

Originally posted by inimalist
when do you think the most likely time for artifacts to be destroyed is?

....yeah see what you mean.

Originally posted by inimalist

any person, no, not at all. But repeated digs does threaten stonehenge itself, not to mention the bones.


In that case **** it. Knowledge is more important im sure they would understand if you explained the siutaion to the dead people.

Obvoulsy though one should try to keep it intact as much as possible.

Originally posted by inimalist
hey, its magik!

Not trying to be a dick and I can see their issue with the desecration of something they view as being holy, but they sound like they belong at gaming convention.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Obvoulsy though one should try to keep it intact as much as possible.

I don't see why some people assume that those studying the bones wont be as careful or respectful as they can?

Researchers who want to dig this up undoubtedly have a passion for these things. They, I'd say even moreso than the "spiritual community", have vested interests in maintaining stonehenge and its bones.

And, like mentioned before, keeping the bones clean in a glass case will preserve them much longer than being in the ground would, and will draw far more public attention to stonehenge and its magiks.

Originally posted by Robtard
Not trying to be a dick and I can see their issue with the desecration of something they view as being holy, but they sound like they belong at gaming convention.

true, but I'd make the same smart ass comment if it were a native burial ground or some Christian thing

Originally posted by Robtard
Not trying to be a dick and I can see their issue with the desecration of something they view as being holy, but they sound like they belong at gaming convention.

See, why is it funny that they call themselves that...but people don't laugh at titles like Bishop or Pope...

Originally posted by Robtard
Not trying to be a dick and I can see their issue with the desecration of something they view as being holy, but they sound like they belong at gaming convention. HEY, MAN, LARPING IS A VERY CREATIVE AND ACCEPTABLE FORM OF PAST TIME ACTIVITY!!!!111!!

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
See, why is it funny that they call themselves that...but people don't laugh at titles like Bishop or Pope...

I laugh at the hats. Oh and Pontiff, always thought that was a funny word.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I laugh at the hats. Oh and Pontiff, always thought that was a funny word.

Pontifex Maximus...Caesar was one of them.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
See, why is it funny that they call themselves that...but people don't laugh at titles like Bishop or Pope...

I do sometimes.


But it is true that obviously the biggest religions have a better standing overall, they do get more shit for it, as well though.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But it is true that obviously the biggest religions have a better standing overall, they do get more shit for it, as well though.

indeed, mention christianity or islam, and the terrible accusations fly

nobody has said that druids were evil for burning people alive in wooden structures.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
See, why is it funny that they call themselves that...but people don't laugh at titles like Bishop or Pope...

I find Catholics especially hilarious with the titles, outfits and posturing about. IMO, God wouldn't care who has the biggest and fanciest hat, not does it make the sermon more profound. I'd rather see a priest in a tee-shirt and jeans.

Originally posted by Bardock42
There's no reason to compromise. It's the government's property.

How long do you propose the bones may be outside of the ground? Does the tax payer have to pay for the bones to be put back? When new discoveries come along can the bones be taken out again? What can you do about them losing research value by being transported in and out of the ground as well as being contaminated by the ground further? Will the taxpayers have to pay everytime the bones need to be researched? What about the harm done by the digging, that will multiply with numerous different diggings for putting them back and getting them again, etc.

Ok ok when you put it like that I see your point. Don't hurt me please! cry



Originally posted by inimalist
I don't see why some people assume that those studying the bones wont be as careful or respectful as they can?

Researchers who want to dig this up undoubtedly have a passion for these things. They, I'd say even moreso than the "spiritual community", have vested interests in maintaining stonehenge and its bones.

And, like mentioned before, keeping the bones clean in a glass case will preserve them much longer than being in the ground would, and will draw far more public attention to stonehenge and its magiks.

Yes I was thinking about that.....

Originally posted by inimalist
indeed, mention christianity or islam, and the terrible accusations fly

nobody has said that druids were evil for burning people alive in wooden structures.

Stop trying to backtrack. Just admit it you hate The Druids.

Originally posted by Bardock42
HEY, MAN, LARPING IS A VERY CREATIVE AND ACCEPTABLE FORM OF PAST TIME ACTIVITY!!!!111!!

If you're ever in Washington, DC. They also made a documentary, which was quite hilarious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkon_Wargaming_Club

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok ok when you put it like that I see your point. Don't hurt me please! cry I'm a pacifist...for the most part.

Originally posted by inimalist
indeed, mention christianity or islam, and the terrible accusations fly

nobody has said that druids were evil for burning people alive in wooden structures.

Look, mate, if they didn't want to be accused of shit they shouldn't have burned all those people with their inquisition.

Originally posted by inimalist
nobody has said that druids were evil for burning people alive in wooden structures.

Because they're all but irrelevant to the world?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Look, mate, if they didn't want to be accused of shit they shouldn't have burned all those people with their inquisition.

Originally posted by Robtard
If you're ever in Washington, DC. They also made a documentary, which was quite hilarious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkon_Wargaming_Club

This is funny as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93KaSCAiIWw

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
This is funny as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93KaSCAiIWw

This, though not being a documentary, is ****ing hilarious: http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/3718/

Also about druids.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Stop trying to backtrack. Just admit it you hate The Druids.

WTF!!!!!!

holy crap, how many times do I have to explain this

I don't hate the druids, I just think they are silly

Originally posted by Bardock42
Look, mate, if they didn't want to be accused of shit they shouldn't have burned all those people with their inquisition.

that shows a real lack of foresight, eh?

Originally posted by inimalist


that shows a real lack of foresight, eh?

And now they suffer the consequences.

Originally posted by Bardock42
And now they suffer the consequences.

Got off with it pretty lightly though...

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Got off with it pretty lightly though...

Originally posted by inimalist


Interestingly though, a "Knights Templar" group tried to sue the Church recently...Pope Benedict in particular over the unjust disbandment of the group.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Interestingly though, a "Knights Templar" group tried to sue the Church recently...Pope Benedict in particular over the unjust disbandment of the group.

lol

the disbanding happened after the... first crusade?... correct?

Originally posted by inimalist
lol

the disbanding happened after the... first crusade?... correct?

1312, after the Ninth Crusade...

So yes, a long long time ago.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Got off with it pretty lightly though... You just wait.

I agree with the druids, I think that historical sites like this need to be left alone. And as far as graves, those should never be violated.

Since when did these Druids get to decide anyway?

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
I agree with the druids, I think that historical sites like this need to be left alone. And as far as graves, those should never be violated.

should the researchers who dig up ancient burial sites also be allowed to forbid you from gaining anything from their work?

Originally posted by inimalist
should the researchers who dig up ancient burial sites also be allowed to forbid you from gaining anything from their work?

I don't think they should be able to dig them up in the first place.

Edit:

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
I don't think they should be able to dig them up in the first place.

Is knowing history/were we've come from important?

Yes but I still value and respect the sanctity of a grave more then the search for knowledge.

Originally posted by Robtard
Didn't the church kill them because they had grown too rich and powerful off (blackmailing?) the church?

No, thats what the Da Vinci code would have you believe.

It was the King of France, Philip the Fair, who owed the order allot of money- he accused them of various crimes so he could cancel his debts and put pressure on the Pope to disband the order, eventually the Pope did.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
I don't think they should be able to dig them up in the first place.

ok, but they are going to

so, would it be ok if the researchers said, "you, aster phoenix, will never be allowed to know or to benefit from whatever comes of the knowledge gathered through digging up bones"?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No, thats what the Da Vinci code would have you believe.

It was the King of France, Philip the Fair, who owed the order allot of money- he accused them of various crimes so he could cancel his debts and put pressure on the Pope to disband the order, eventually the Pope did.

Yeah, realized that and edited out. It was some History Channel thing I was semi-watching while on the computer sometime ago. Forgot it was tied into Dan Brown's book, fiction.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Yes but I still value and respect the sanctity of a grave more then the search for knowledge.

Really?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Really?

I have a deep respect for the integrity of a grave.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
I have a deep respect for the integrity of a grave.

Hypothetical:

If you found out there was 500 million in gold buried under a grave, it is also an isolated grave so you could excavate it without fear of punishment and you know someone who could safely fence it for you, you wouldn't start digging?

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
I have a deep respect for the integrity of a grave.

So...you have a great respect for a dead human being.

But not one that is in the process of birth.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So...you have a great respect for a dead human being.

But not one that is in the process of birth.

Hahahaa. Good cross-thread connection.

Originally posted by Robtard
Hypothetical:

If you found out there was 500 million in gold buried under a grave and it was an isolated grave so you could excavate it without fear of punishment and you knew someone who could safely fence it for you, you wouldn't start digging?

No, I'm not big on money or being rich.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
No, I'm not big on money or being rich.

http://www.stpixels.com/images/l2_46730.jpg

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So...you have a great respect for a dead human being.

But not one that is in the process of birth.

I never said I did not have respect for a fetus, I simply believe there are two instances under which terminating one is acceptable.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
I never said I did not have respect for a fetus, I simply believe there are two instances under which terminating one is acceptable.

Well, you did compare a fetus to that of a bug.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
I never said I did not have respect for a fetus, I simply believe there are two instances under which terminating one is acceptable.

What instances are there were opening a grave is acceptable?

Originally posted by Robtard
http://www.stpixels.com/images/l2_46730.jpg

I'm not lying. I've seen what wealth does to people. All I want is enough money to get by in this world and that is all.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
What instances are there were opening a grave is acceptable?

Not any in my opinion.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Not any in my opinion.

None? Come on now.

Originally posted by Robtard
None? Come on now.

Sorry, its what I believe. I understand not everyone agrees with me and thats okay.

Originally posted by inimalist
so, would it be ok if the researchers said, "you, aster phoenix, will never be allowed to know or to benefit from whatever comes of the knowledge gathered through digging up bones"?

I would be fine with it and ask them not to dig up the bones in the first place.

Edit: wrong thread.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
I would be fine with it and ask them not to dig up the bones in the first place.

in your own opinion then, it would be fine if you never learned history and lived in a society that was uninterested in history?

Originally posted by inimalist
in your own opinion then, it would be fine if you never learned history and lived in a society that was uninterested in history?

Not all of our historical information was garnered from graves.

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Not all of our historical information was garnered from graves.

Really? I would think that most of what we know about the people of Stonehenge are from graves.

And BTW the Druids are from a later time then Stonehenge, and really have no more say then we do.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Really? I would think that most of what we know about the people of Stonehenge are from graves.

I can't say for sure. But yes I would be willing to forgo the knowledge if it meant avoiding disturbing a person's resting place.

Originally posted by inimalist
WTF!!!!!!

holy crap, how many times do I have to explain this

I don't hate the druids, I just think they are silly



Sorry I can't always tell when you're serious or joking. Just to be sure you know I was joking?

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Not all of our historical information was garnered from graves.

yes, but considering how wet archeologists get when they find them, I'd assume a lot can be.

and I'd think there are very unique things that can be garnered only from graves.

This doesn't even begin to address tombs, where, depending on the culture, some of the most priceless cultural artifacts are kept

also, many times burial sites are found by accident, and given the nature of human history, it is likely people have been buried over a good portion of the world (bones decompose). What is to be done about this? Should excavation of sites be prevented because someone might have been buried there?

and what about people who died at sea? is the ocean then one big grave? what about for those given a naval funeral, or a funeral pier?

what about indian culture where the ganges is both a place to be spiritually cleansed and a place where bodies are buried?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Sorry I can't always tell when you're serious or joking. Just to be sure you know I was joking?

lol, as was I

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, as was I

doh Just checking.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
doh Just checking.

haha

I love confusion...

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
I can't say for sure. But yes I would be willing to forgo the knowledge if it meant avoiding disturbing a person's resting place.

A person? How do you know what these people would think? If in 5000 years your grave was dug up and your bones were examined in order for the people of the future to understand us better, wouldn't you see that as a way of being a spokesman for the rest of us? You would be teaching the future about the lives we live now. I would personally find that to be an honor.

Originally posted by inimalist
yes, but considering how wet archeologists get when they find them, I'd assume a lot can be.

and I'd think there are very unique things that can be garnered only from graves.

This doesn't even begin to address tombs, where, depending on the culture, some of the most priceless cultural artifacts are kept

also, many times burial sites are found by accident, and given the nature of human history, it is likely people have been buried over a good portion of the world (bones decompose). What is to be done about this? Should excavation of sites be prevented because someone might have been buried there?

and what about people who died at sea? is the ocean then one big grave? what about for those given a naval funeral, or a funeral pier?

what about indian culture where the ganges is both a place to be spiritually cleansed and a place where bodies are buried?

Okay some of those situations don't really apply. If I found a grave by accident, I would do my best to restore it to the way I found it and leave it alone. I just think a person's final resting place is a sacred thing. Is that such a bad thing to believe?

Originally posted by Aster Phoenix
Okay some of those situations don't really apply. If I found a grave by accident, I would do my best to restore it to the way I found it and leave it alone. I just think a person's final resting place is a sacred thing. Is that such a bad thing to believe?

lol, no, its not a bad thing to believe

I think it is inadvisable to put that belief ahead of research

I also think it does not logically hold when applied to the situations i mentioned

This thread has proposed that the bones be returned once finished being examined, would that satisfy you?

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, no, its not a bad thing to believe

I think it is inadvisable to put that belief ahead of research

I also think it does not logically hold when applied to the situations i mentioned

This thread has proposed that the bones be returned once finished being examined, would that satisfy you?

I myself would still not do it. But at least they are doing that much.

It would satisfy the communities, and yes many things will be disturbed but I, personally, like Aster, feel that a grave should be left alone. Thats just my opinion.

Originally posted by Lara
It would satisfy the communities, and yes many things will be disturbed but I, personally, like Aster, feel that a grave should be left alone. Thats just my opinion. Exactly, that's just your opinion, and I damn well don't have to pay for that as it is a ridiculous one.

where abouts in the world do you live bardock?

Originally posted by Lara
where abouts in the world do you live bardock? Germany, though, oddly enough, in Surrey come next month.


Beside the point though, I was speaking metaphorically.

Do Druids have a structured religion or is it one of those New Age believe what you want things...?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Exactly, that's just your opinion, and I damn well don't have to pay for that as it is a ridiculous one.

mind you, you would be paying for them to be dug up in the first place, for them to be examined, and for them to be displayed and maintained

lol, totally off topic, but what are your feelings about public funding for research and museums and such?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Do Druids have a structured religion or is it one of those New Age believe what you want things...?

I think the belief of modern Druids comes under Celtic Reconstuctionism. So I think its a structured religon.

its quite rigidly structured.

bardock, if you live in germany then its not your tax payments that will pay for this. any ways I pay too much tax as it is!

inimalist: some things are worth spending public money on.
I feel that the millenium dome was the biggest waste of public money going! I feel that that money could have been better spent on ways to preserve the green spaces we have and to creat new ones. also the new renewable energies research they have been going.

I'm not totally against research and history as you have clearly made out. I just feel that places like SH should be preserved as best possible and not disturbed too much.

Originally posted by Lara
inimalist: some things are worth spending public money on.
I feel that the millenium dome was the biggest waste of public money going! I feel that that money could have been better spent on ways to preserve the green spaces we have and to creat new ones. also the new renewable energies research they have been going.

I'm not totally against research and history as you have clearly made out. I just feel that places like SH should be preserved as best possible and not disturbed too much.

I'd actually appreciate it if you mentioned which nation had archeological practices that you agreed with...

obviously I disagree that any "spiritual energy" mumbo jumbo should affect research, and personally feel that researchers and museums will do a far better job preserving the artifacts and bones than the ground will.

how can a facility like that preserve them any better then the ground they have been in for over 5,000 years? BTW bones take thousands upon thousands of years to decomp. which then leads to: what the hell do you think natural energy sources are???

Originally posted by Lara
how can a facility like that preserve them any better then the ground they have been in for over 5,000 years? BTW bones take thousands upon thousands of years to decomp.

your first sentence is not logically followed by the second. Bones are no longer decomposing when they are properly stored.

Regardless of decomposition, there are numerous other things, like stress from climate and seasonal change, and at the very least, pets, that bones in museums are protected from.

and not to be glib, the people in museums make their living from and have dedicated their lives to these bones, rather than them being part of some hokey mysticism. They are personally and financially motivated to care for and respect them, as opposed to just feeling good because they are in the ground somewhere.

Originally posted by Lara
which then leads to: what the hell do you think natural energy sources are???

lol, explain them to me

which leads to: why wont you answer my question about archeology?

you know, you really are a pompus arse hole!
I started the thread to make people aware of what was happening, not have it turned into a heartless, neandatholic debate about who is right and who is not. I dont have to justify myself, my beliefs or my morals to you.

I dont think I'm better than any one else. we are all born the same and we all die the same! you come across as a self-righteous prick.

no, you don't have to justify anything to me, and i've never suggested we are not equal.

however, what your "thread to make people aware" proposes is the shutting down of a research program, for reasons that amount to nothing more than superstition.

By trying to prevent research, you are harming all society. By keeping the bones in the ground, you are making them less likely to be preserved. Call it pompous all you want, you can't call it wrong.

If you don't want what you believe questioned, don't post it on an internet forum designed for such things. Obviously everyone isn't going to agree with you, and I don't understand why you can't live with a little valid criticism.

Originally posted by inimalist
no, you don't have to justify anything to me, and i've never suggested we are not equal.

however, what your "thread to make people aware" proposes is the shutting down of a research program, for reasons that amount to nothing more than superstition.

By trying to prevent research, you are harming all society. By keeping the bones in the ground, you are making them less likely to be preserved. Call it pompous all you want, you can't call it wrong.

If you don't want what you believe questioned, don't post it on an internet forum designed for such things. Obviously everyone isn't going to agree with you, and I don't understand why you can't live with a little valid criticism.

I think its the mumbo jumbo comments that didn't really help.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I think its the mumbo jumbo comments that didn't really help.

I calls it as I sees it

feel free to make me look like an idiot by proving the existence and relevance of spiritual energy.

Originally posted by inimalist
I calls it as I sees it

feel free to make me look like an idiot by proving the existence and relevance of spiritual energy.

I don't have to prove anything its just about being polite.

its not a case of that, and how many ****ing times do I have to say it: ..."NOT AGAINST RESEARCH" just put them back when they are done.

I dont expect you to understand the relevance, nor can I put it in a way that you would.

That that you live in canada doesnt help as I'm sure you cant percieve the importance of the henge as many other things than a historical land mark.

you certainly dont have to be so aggressive with you approach to critisim. TBVH I find you quite insulting.

As for this thread I feel the initial motive behind it has now been lost in your torent of consistent battery.

I have no intention of posting here again, I though it was a forum for sharing views in a peaceful manner, I was obviously mistaken.
one day I'm sure you'll choke on your own cynisism.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I don't have to prove anything its just about being polite.

hXg-yy-riEg

since my imbeds don't seem to work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXg-yy-riEg

EDIT: ignore the imagery, it is pretty silly.

Originally posted by Lara
its not a case of that, and how many ****ing times do I have to say it: ..."NOT AGAINST RESEARCH" just put them back when they are done.


not to respond to the rest, my initial posts asked very logical questions that you still refuse to answer.

one of them being related to this point: Who decides when there is nothing left to gain from the bones?

Originally posted by inimalist
hXg-yy-riEg

since my imbeds don't seem to work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXg-yy-riEg

EDIT: ignore the imagery, it is pretty silly.




*sigh* Im not going to watch that. I can understand why you think its mumbo-jumbo im just saying you could be more polite. Its not like she wants to blow up a building or not allow people to use contraception. I think im verging towards your view but her stance isn't really THAT bad.

who decides there is anything to gain from them in the first place.

The bones are of spiritual relevance, I'm not sitting here and questioning the last supper am I?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* Im not going to watch that. I can understand why you think its mumbo-jumbo im just saying you could be more polite. Its not like she wants to blow up a building or not allow people to use contraception. I think im verging towards your view but her stance isn't really THAT bad.

the video is actually why people should be as conversationally intolerant of religious (spiritual) ideas as they should other silly ideas, like Elvis and Alien abduction.

I don't think I'm being impolite, I am certainly not going out of my way to be offensive, I am being honest however. If you can't take criticism, don't post on the internet.