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Can DE Sidious win?

yes

Nah I doubt it. Against Yoda alone would be a good fight for DE Sidious, because remember that there is not much to substantiate a huge gain in power between ROTS and DE other than a younger body. Then add Mace who is close to Yoda and arguably defeated Sidious already in ROTS. Then add two other competent swordsman and thats alot of blades trying to take off Palpys head. He wouldnt likely have time to summon a force storm, and force lightning only works against a single opponent because it requires free use of your hands which would lead himself open against his other attackers. It would just come down to lightsaber combat and I doubt Palpy could win against all four that way.

Possibly force storm of Kotor to attack all at once

oh wait your gonna come up with some lame ass argument as to why it isn't a canon attack

as far as sabers go sids is just to quick if he takes windu out quickly enough then the rest fall

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Possibly force storm of Kotor to attack all at once

oh wait your gonna come up with some lame ass argument as to why it isn't a canon attack

Force storm in kotor is just a higher level force lightning attack. It isnt the same as Palpys force storms. Sidious might be able to attack them all at once with lightning, though I dont believe hes shown this before, and if one of them broke out of it like Yoda was able to than he would be wide open to get himself killed. That isnt to far fetched either because if he was firing lightning at multiple opponents than it would be necessary to divide his power.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
as far as sabers go sids is just to quick if he takes windu out quickly enough then the rest fall

Nope against four blades Sidious would have to take a more defensive stance. If he goes all out against Mace to try to kill him, somone will no doubt gank him from behind.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nope against four blades Sidious would have to take a more defensive stance. If he goes all out against Mace to try to kill him, somone will no doubt gank him from behind. Gank?!


oh and i think he is considerbly more powerful by DE... so lightning is Much more effective...

i like the three dots

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Gank?!


oh and i think he is considerbly more powerful by DE... so lightning is Much more effective...

i like the three dots

Lets say for the sake of argument that DE Sidious is four times as powerful as ROTS Sidious(this is far from true, I doubt that DE Sidious even increased his power twofold). Sidous would still have to divide his power four way against four opponents, so Yoda would likely break out of it just like he did in ROTS, and probably Mace also since he would still have his lightsaber. Then Sidious must inevitably engage them in lightsaber combat or else he dies, which frees up Anakin and Obi wan to come help.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Lets say for the sake of argument that DE Sidious is four times as powerful as ROTS Sidious(this is far from true, I doubt that DE Sidious even increased his power twofold). Sidous would still have to divide his power four way against four opponents, so Yoda would likely break out of it just like he did in ROTS, and probably Mace also since he would still have his lightsaber. Then Sidious must inevitably engage them in lightsaber combat or else he dies, which frees up Anakin and Obi wan to come help. No he Pulls a WTFPWN(like he did on the
b-team ) on ob1 and dispatch Anakin with the similar to what dooku did

then its Mace vs yoda... lets argue this

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
No he Pulls a WTFPWN(like he did on the
b-team ) on ob1 and dispatch Anakin with the similar to what dooku did

then its Mace vs yoda... lets argue this

Those Jedi who went to arrest him in ROTS were weak. And Anakin was MUCH weaker in AOTC when Dooku beat him. Anakin 'the chosen one' and Obi Wan in ROTS are alot more powerful and competent, I find it hard to believe DE Sidious would dispatch them like nothing. Remember that DE Luke fought Sidious to a standstill in lightsaber combat by himself, and DE Luke isnt nearly as powerful as he is later on in the EU. So its not like DE Sidious is the godlike opponent some people make him out to be, he cant defeat any opponent at will.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Those Jedi who went to arrest him in ROTS were weak. And Anakin was MUCH weaker in AOTC when Dooku beat him. Anakin 'the chosen one' and Obi Wan in ROTS are alot more powerful and competent, I find it hard to believe DE Sidious would dispatch them like nothing. Remember that DE Luke fought Sidious to a standstill in lightsaber combat by himself, and DE Luke isnt nearly as powerful as he is later on in the EU. So its not like DE Sidious is the godlike opponent some people make him out to be, he cant defeat any opponent at will.


LUKE DE <<<<<<<<<<<<Obiwan+Anakin

Anakin never reached his potential so the chosen one was an unfulfilled prophecy
And...From Test of Wills by PubliusLeia Organa Solo and her unborn son were the sole witnesses to the greatest battle in history.

She saw only a whirlwind as they swept through the room, their path tearing from one end of the room to the other, across the bulkheads, around the deck and through the air. They whirled and cut and parried and counterattacked faster than the eye could see, transforming them into a blur of sound and fury, their brilliant weapons angry flickers of light in the destroyed throne room. She caught the barest of glimpses of their struggle, heard the merest of whispers of the words they exchanged – words meant for the ears of Masters alone.

Though many thought her powerful – and indeed she was – she was a mere neophyte compared to these two mighty titans; she had once read that on many worlds the Jedi and the Sith were revered as gods. She knew now why this was so; she saw the awesome and terrible power that they could wield. For all her own potential in the Unifying Force – the Living Force – the Universal Force – for all her own potential, there was little more she could do than take refuge beneath the Galactic Emperor's overturned throne.

While around her, the test of wills raged.

Flash! as they turned in air, Flash! went their 'sabers there. Never before and never again in all of history had there been or would there be a battle such as this. Even now – as they flashed and turned and struck and clashed – echoes of their struggle could be felt all throughout the universe. They were as opposing divinities, as different as night and day.

There was Palpatine the Undying, the great Galactic Emperor, the manifestation of the dark side of the Force, in all his abysmal glory, all his great and terrible majesty. He was a void of hunger and narcissism, a voracious abyss that would never be satisfied until he had consumed all things and plunged the universe into eternal darkness. He had embraced the dark side even before he was born, he basked in its cold abyss. The peoples of the galaxy had become complacent in the light of the Jedi's vigil, and he had plunged them into darkness.

He had spent decades devoted to meditation and study, immersing himself in the secrets and lore of a thousand worlds and a thousand cults, secluded in his monasteries and libraries. He had made pilgrimages to Korriban, to Dromund Kaas, the Ziost, to Had Abbadon, to Arkania, to Apollyon, to Cos. He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force, the sublime Eternity, the All, the Great Unity, the Tyia, the Quwa Akhrํn, the White Current – and in all its traditions – the Sith Lords, the Jedi Knights, the Krath Society, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, the Heresiarch Congregation, the Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim. He had learned the esoteric martial arts of Terไs Kไsi and Yad Hadํd; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgไnger, Malacia and Mortichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past – a phantom menace – the revenge of the Sith.

There was Luke Skywalker, the simple farmboy from a backwater desert world, the guardian of the light side of the Force, with all his awe-inspiring power at its fullest. He was a beacon of honesty and generosity, willing to lay down his own life to save those of his friends. He had come from a planet with two suns into a galaxy lost in darkness, bringing with him a new hope for freedom. He had destroyed the Death Star and saved the brave Rebellion against the tyrannical rule of the evil Empire; he had redeemed the soul of a mighty Dark Lord of the Sith and shattered the Emperor's iron grip on the galaxy. The peoples the galaxy had been drowning in the eternal darkness of the Sith's reign, and he had brought them light.

He had only learned of the Force as a young man; his formal training had been cut short by the deaths of both his Masters. He had found few scraps of the lost traditions of the Jedi Knights; he had searched in vain for the knowledge of that noble order whose light the Dark Lord of the Sith had tried to extinguish. He had found little in the empty halls of the Jedi Temple and the wreck of the Chu'unthor, never even been to the few abandoned praxeums and libraries that still remained. He had not been instructed in the philosophies of the Jedi scribes, nor did he know their formalized techniques and disciplines and rubrics; he wielded his power in an unconscious and completely instinctive way. He did not speak High Galactic, had not been trained in the ways of the Jedi Knight's blade; he knew none of the forms, only using the Force to guide his hand. He did not know the histories and traditions of the cults of the Force that the Sith Lords and their Empire had eradicated. He had few ties to the history of the Jedi and their Order, fewer still to the countless other traditions and cults and sects. He was a vision of the future – a new hope – the return of the Jedi.

The one could never tolerate the existence of the other.

The Emperor had sought to convert the humble farmboy, to turn him to the dark side of the Force; not even his rejection of the dark side could turn the Sith Lord's thoughts away from him. The Sith Lord could not abide the Jedi Knight, could not simply destroy him. He needed to turn him, to destroy his will, to dominate his very soul. He needed to break him, to tear him apart and remake him in his own image. For his great weakness was his narcissism, his malignant and twisted self-love. To be rejected, to be challenged, to be defeated was unthinkable.

The humble farmboy had sought to defeat the darkness within his father, and within the malevolent Emperor who had seduced him and destroyed the goodness in him, the Emperor who was full of lies and was the father of lies. He had chosen to die rather than to become like him; yet he knew that he alone could ever hope to challenge the great and terrible Dark Lord of the Sith. He had risked everything to learn the secrets of the Sith, to gain from his enemy the strength he needed to destroy him forever. To stand by, to look on, to allow his existence was intolerable.

And so there they were, Palpatine the Undying and Luke Skywalker, the twin and opposing demigods. The swirl of their light and darkness was terrifying, a river of power that threatened to sweep away all around it. Luke's vast courage could never hope to overcome the Emperor's vast power; yet the Emperor's egotistical self-love could never hope to match Luke's altruistic self-sacrifice. They battled with more than just their lightsabers; they battled with their whole selves, mind, body, and soul. It was a battle between the Sith Lord who ruled and the Jedi Knight who served; the narcissist who exploited and abused and the philanthropist who defended and comforted; the darkness that chilled and the light that warmed; the abyss that consumed and the love that begot. It was a battle between the darkest evil and the purest good.

Waves of power and emotion poured off of the peerless antagonists, sending shudders through the vast warship from stem to stern. The overwhelming atmosphere of the battle struck the crew almost instantly; some collapsed at their battle stations, insensate and traumatized, while others fell dead where they stood. All throughout the galaxy those who were sensitive to the Force could feel the violence of the clash of titans, could feel the intensity of the test of wills.

And none felt it more deeply than did Leia Organa Solo and her unborn son. They were immersed within the sound and the fury; there, in that room, they peered into the depths of the souls of both the Dark Lord of the Sith and the Grand Master of the Jedi. And as they battled, Luke Skywalker knew that should he fail, both his sister and her child would be left defenseless and in the clutches of Palpatine the Undying.

Can there be any wonder that the humble farmboy defeated the mighty Galactic Emperor?

"Palpatine of Naboo," the poetess Hari Seldona once wrote, "is an interesting man. Never before in galactic history has such evil been hidden beneath a mask of such beauty."

Certainly she was not referring to his face; even before his disfigurement under what were best described as murky circumstances, Dr. Augustus Nero Palpatine had not been known for his dashing good looks.

Rather Seldona's mask referred to the idyllic world of his birth, Naboo, and to the undeniable brilliance of his mind. A prodigy even by the standards of a world whose aristocracy routinely used accelerated learning to create generations of preadolescents with university-level educations, the Incorruptible โ€“ that was what they called him on Naboo, ironically enough โ€“ had completed his first dissertation by the time of his tenth birthday, obtaining the first of many doctorates of philosophy, this one from the University of Aldera's Department of History and Moral Philosophy. In subsequent years he would add doctorates in economics, political science, military history, linguistics, hyperphysics, psychology, and psychohistory.

During the years in which he had served as Supreme Chancellor, it had been a popular joke to refer to the Office of the Supreme Chancellor as 'the Ivory Tower,' as it was Palpatine's academic credentials that were his best known feature. Seldona was neither the first nor the last to describe Palpatine as "a beautiful mind."

What many failed to realize was that for all his brilliance, Palpatine was no ordinary man. He was a man of genius, it was true, but that genius was thrawn. Like a diamond, his intellect sparkled, but it was also cold and hard. Palpatine's brilliance was the product of abomination; he had come into the world with that rarest of deformities โ€“ it was a matter not spoken of outside the most intimate circles of the House of Palpatine, in fact something that nobody outside the archducal family had ever even heard of.

Augustus Nero Palpatine was pre-born.

His mother, the Archduchess of Palpatine, had been a woman of society, a woman of great learning and grace. She had also been an addict of spice, that most empyrean of all drugs. There had been complications during the pregnancy, and it was the family's shameful secret that the child Augustus Nero was . . . abnormal, in many respects. Certain abnormalities are to be expected when a fetus already has a fully-developed intellect prior to birth. He had awakened to the universe secure in the knowledge that he was all that mattered; in all the years that followed, he never saw any evidence that caused him to reconsider this conclusion.

But his exceptional intellect was not the only secret that he had hidden. Palpatine's other secret, one altogether more sinister, was that he belonged to the most exclusive, most dangerous cult in existence; though the origins of his affiliation with the Order were lost to time, Palpatine had become one of the Dark Lords of the Sith. As he displayed the brilliance of his mind under the aristocratic and academic guise of Dr. Palpatine, he gave full rein to his power-hungry narcissism under the guise of Darth Sidious. And so this prince of many faces had set out to recreate the galactic order in his own image, to create a New Order in glorification of himself. Here was Seldona's evil lurking beneath masks of beauty; to satisfy his own lusts he had created a brutal war and torn the galaxy asunder, had orchestrated atrocities and war crimes for no end other than his own pursuit of power. His malignant self-love was all the justification he'd needed to destroy the Republic and proclaim himself ruler of an Empire that would stand for ten thousand years.

And so he had ruled the galaxy with an iron fist, his grip growing ever tighter as years and even decades passed. There had been resistance, to be sure, both legal and not, in the halls of the Imperial Senate and on the battlefields of the Rebellion. But he had grown steadily more and more powerful, the point that entire worlds were smashed to smithereens for having dared to oppose him. Finally he had felt a new enemy, one that could destroy him and end his reign of darkness. The Force โ€“ that unfathomable mystery โ€“ had revealed to him the danger posed by a single soul, a boy named Luke Skwyalker, and he had created an ambush at the Sanctuary Moon of Endor, plotting to ensnare the boy in the dark side of the Force, thereby hijacking his destiny and preserving the eternal rule of night. But the plot had failed; he had been betrayed by the very Apprentice he had meant to betray, and had met his death at long last. Good had triumphed over evil.

At least, that was the theory of it.

There was a great disturbance in the Force, like a thousand voices crying out in terror.

Luke and Leia both staggered as they felt the Emperor's wrath take form, as they felt the lives of thousands of brave men and women be extinguished by the vast storm of raw energy, as they felt the rending of the very fabric of space and time itself. Luke could feel the agony in his soul, his mind's eye blinded by the fierce power the Emperor had unleashed.

"What is it?" Leia called, struggling against the pain in her own mind. "What's he doing?"

"It's a storm," Luke answered, dropping to his knees and clutching at his temples. The pain of it was overwhelming; the Force was strong in him, and here, now, in the focus of the Eclipse's infernal architecture, every sensation his clairvoyance brought him was amplified a thousandfold. "A Force storm – the Sith Lord's most terrible weapon!"

"Yes," the Emperor said, rising now to his full height, his diabolical laughter resounding in their ears. "Yes! Do you see, Skywalker, do you see at last? Do you finally comprehend my glory?"

And once more the hurricane's gale answered his summons, hurling both Luke and Leia into the far bulkhead, away from the broken throne and viewport – and this time, not even Luke could stand against him. Debris wrenched itself free from the twisted remnants of the throne room and struck him once more. "Do you see, Skywalker? Do you see?" The Emperor's face was twisted in hatred, his snakelike eyes gleaming with zealotry. "This power could have been yours! You could have served at my side! You could have been a god! And you rejected me! You rejected me! And for what? For this? For misery, and pain, and death? You pathetic fool!"

And now the storm was raging in the throne room as well, the demonic winds tearing apart whatever remained from the test of wills. The air sizzled with the Emperor's hideous lightning, snaking along the deck and bulkheads without focus. The full rage of the deathless autocrat had been unleashed, and it was a fury unlike anything the galaxy had ever seen.

"You could have been great!" He roared. "This is your prize now, Skywalker! This is your triumph! You dared think you could defeat me? Me? I who destroyed the Jedi? I who conquered death itself? You think your pathetic lightsaber could defeat me? I am a god, Skywalker, I am the dark side, I am the universe itself! You cannot defeat me! I am invincible!"

But Luke stood fast. As the wind and darkness screamed around him – as the Emperor's storm laid waste the fleet beyond – as the Emperor raged and roared and buffeted him with sound and fury – he stood fast. He called upon the light side, and it answered his call, shielding him from the Emperor's wind and lightning, deflecting his missiles, breaking his invisible walls and javelins. And even as the Emperor threw all his great darkness, Luke released all of his light – and the light burned brightly.

"Leia!" Luke called over the hurricane's roar, "Listen to me! We can stop him! I have learned his secrets – not even he can control the chaos he's unleashed! Together, we can turn back his wave of darkness!"

Brother and sister together must fight this Dark Lord

And as Luke's light burned in the midst of the Emperor's eternal darkness, he felt his sister's hand take his, felt her light join his own – her light, and a tiny spark, the light of another.

And their light mingled, merged, became as one. Their harmony was a tiny one, compared to the vastness of the god-Emperor arrayed against them. And yet it rippled, spread out, grew stronger – from a few solitary notes before, now cutting through the Emperor's cacophony of evil –

My ally is the Force, old Yoda had once told Luke. And a powerful ally it is – life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us . . . luminous beings are we . . .

And their symphony grew stronger, summoning light from the waters of Da Soocha, from the hearts of the brave Sailors facing their doom in the void of space beyond, from the courage of those leaders who had taken up the fight against tyranny, even in the face of the unstoppable armies of Palpatine the Undying, those nameless, faceless armies who would be content to trample their boots in the face of freedom – forever.

They drew light from the stars, from the rocks, from the twisted metal of the Emperor's throne room . . . and from the wells of courage deep within themselves. Their harmony swelled now to a crescendo of light –

The Emperor blinked.

There was something wrong, something horribly wrong. He could not feel his wrath now, could not feel the awesome power pulsing through him. The darkness that was his eternal companion – the darkness that penetrated every fibre of his being – was gone. He reached for his lightning, but it did not answer. He summoned his winds, but they did not come. He snarled in impotent rage – and only then did he understand.

Only then did he see the light.

He screamed in wordless agony, a scream of horror that cut deep into the soul. The light washed over him, washing away his evil, burning away the darkness that fed him, that empowered him, that filled his being. The light enveloped him, driving away the shadows of all his lifetimes.

He was the Master of the dark side, the Lord of all it offered. War itself had become his weapon, his tool; he had defeated the Jedi because they'd failed to realize that they lost the moment they began fighting him. Their greatest warriors became his pawns, their most noble struggles fuel for his power. And as Yoda himself had fought him with all his power, he had not realized that he only fed the insatiable hunger of the dark side – the insatiable hunger of the Sith.

And yet these two – these three – had not fought him. They had not used the Force to crush him, to sweep him aside – but to heal him, to protect him. When he had plunged himself into the very depths of the dark side, they had used the light to reach down and pull him out.

They had exposed him to the light for the barest of instants.

And that was far too long for the Galactic Emperor.

The Force storm beyond had been summoned from the Emperor's soul, formed of his rage and his will and hurled upon his enemies – his implacable wrath given form. And now as the dark side fled him, his will no longer drove the raw destruction he had unleashed. His power overreached, his rage lost cohesion – and the unfathomable force he had unleashed and driven lost direction. No longer was his rage driven outward, and so the cataclysmic storm did the only thing it could –

It returned to its maker.

All the Galactic Emperor's godlike power – the incomprehensible fury of his Force storm – uncontrolled and uncontrollable, rushed back into his soul, and not even that abyss could hold it. No longer could he control the darkness. His power was too great, too massive – it filled him until he could hold no more, and even then it pressed on – his great power grew greater and greater, filling him beyond limit – until reality itself bent, and it all collapsed inward. In a moment of exquisite agony – agony beyond words, beyond description – agony that no living being had ever felt before, or ever would again – he became in fact what he had always been in spirit:

A black hole of the Force.

At that moment, all that was Palpatine the Undying – all that was Palpatine the Emperor – dissolved into nothing at all.

And with that, the mighty Emperor – the deathless Emperor – the invincible Emperor – conquered himself.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
LUKE DE <<<<<<<<<<<<Obiwan+Anakin

Anakin never reached his potential so the chosen one was an unfulfilled prophecy
And...From Test of Wills by PubliusLeia Organa Solo and her unborn son were the sole witnesses to the greatest battle in history.

She saw only a whirlwind as they swept through the room, their path tearing from one end of the room to the other, across the bulkheads, around the deck and through the air. They whirled and cut and parried and counterattacked faster than the eye could see, transforming them into a blur of sound and fury, their brilliant weapons angry flickers of light in the destroyed throne room. She caught the barest of glimpses of their struggle, heard the merest of whispers of the words they exchanged – words meant for the ears of Masters alone.

Though many thought her powerful – and indeed she was – she was a mere neophyte compared to these two mighty titans; she had once read that on many worlds the Jedi and the Sith were revered as gods. She knew now why this was so; she saw the awesome and terrible power that they could wield. For all her own potential in the Unifying Force – the Living Force – the Universal Force – for all her own potential, there was little more she could do than take refuge beneath the Galactic Emperor's overturned throne.

While around her, the test of wills raged.

Flash! as they turned in air, Flash! went their 'sabers there. Never before and never again in all of history had there been or would there be a battle such as this. Even now – as they flashed and turned and struck and clashed – echoes of their struggle could be felt all throughout the universe. They were as opposing divinities, as different as night and day.

There was Palpatine the Undying, the great Galactic Emperor, the manifestation of the dark side of the Force, in all his abysmal glory, all his great and terrible majesty. He was a void of hunger and narcissism, a voracious abyss that would never be satisfied until he had consumed all things and plunged the universe into eternal darkness. He had embraced the dark side even before he was born, he basked in its cold abyss. The peoples of the galaxy had become complacent in the light of the Jedi's vigil, and he had plunged them into darkness.

He had spent decades devoted to meditation and study, immersing himself in the secrets and lore of a thousand worlds and a thousand cults, secluded in his monasteries and libraries. He had made pilgrimages to Korriban, to Dromund Kaas, the Ziost, to Had Abbadon, to Arkania, to Apollyon, to Cos. He had mastered the great power in all its guises – the Force, the sublime Eternity, the All, the Great Unity, the Tyia, the Quwa Akhrํn, the White Current – and in all its traditions – the Sith Lords, the Jedi Knights, the Krath Society, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, the Heresiarch Congregation, the Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim. He had learned the esoteric martial arts of Terไs Kไsi and Yad Hadํd; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgไnger, Malacia and Mortichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past – a phantom menace – the revenge of the Sith.

There was Luke Skywalker, the simple farmboy from a backwater desert world, the guardian of the light side of the Force, with all his awe-inspiring power at its fullest. He was a beacon of honesty and generosity, willing to lay down his own life to save those of his friends. He had come from a planet with two suns into a galaxy lost in darkness, bringing with him a new hope for freedom. He had destroyed the Death Star and saved the brave Rebellion against the tyrannical rule of the evil Empire; he had redeemed the soul of a mighty Dark Lord of the Sith and shattered the Emperor's iron grip on the galaxy. The peoples the galaxy had been drowning in the eternal darkness of the Sith's reign, and he had brought them light.

He had only learned of the Force as a young man; his formal training had been cut short by the deaths of both his Masters. He had found few scraps of the lost traditions of the Jedi Knights; he had searched in vain for the knowledge of that noble order whose light the Dark Lord of the Sith had tried to extinguish. He had found little in the empty halls of the Jedi Temple and the wreck of the Chu'unthor, never even been to the few abandoned praxeums and libraries that still remained. He had not been instructed in the philosophies of the Jedi scribes, nor did he know their formalized techniques and disciplines and rubrics; he wielded his power in an unconscious and completely instinctive way. He did not speak High Galactic, had not been trained in the ways of the Jedi Knight's blade; he knew none of the forms, only using the Force to guide his hand. He did not know the histories and traditions of the cults of the Force that the Sith Lords and their Empire had eradicated. He had few ties to the history of the Jedi and their Order, fewer still to the countless other traditions and cults and sects. He was a vision of the future – a new hope – the return of the Jedi.

The one could never tolerate the existence of the other.

The Emperor had sought to convert the humble farmboy, to turn him to the dark side of the Force; not even his rejection of the dark side could turn the Sith Lord's thoughts away from him. The Sith Lord could not abide the Jedi Knight, could not simply destroy him. He needed to turn him, to destroy his will, to dominate his very soul. He needed to break him, to tear him apart and remake him in his own image. For his great weakness was his narcissism, his malignant and twisted self-love. To be rejected, to be challenged, to be defeated was unthinkable.

The humble farmboy had sought to defeat the darkness within his father, and within the malevolent Emperor who had seduced him and destroyed the goodness in him, the Emperor who was full of lies and was the father of lies. He had chosen to die rather than to become like him; yet he knew that he alone could ever hope to challenge the great and terrible Dark Lord of the Sith. He had risked everything to learn the secrets of the Sith, to gain from his enemy the strength he needed to destroy him forever. To stand by, to look on, to allow his existence was intolerable.

And so there they were, Palpatine the Undying and Luke Skywalker, the twin and opposing demigods. The swirl of their light and darkness was terrifying, a river of power that threatened to sweep away all around it. Luke's vast courage could never hope to overcome the Emperor's vast power; yet the Emperor's egotistical self-love could never hope to match Luke's altruistic self-sacrifice. They battled with more than just their lightsabers; they battled with their whole selves, mind, body, and soul. It was a battle between the Sith Lord who ruled and the Jedi Knight who served; the narcissist who exploited and abused and the philanthropist who defended and comforted; the darkness that chilled and the light that warmed; the abyss that consumed and the love that begot. It was a battle between the darkest evil and the purest good.

Waves of power and emotion poured off of the peerless antagonists, sending shudders through the vast warship from stem to stern. The overwhelming atmosphere of the battle struck the crew almost instantly; some collapsed at their battle stations, insensate and traumatized, while others fell dead where they stood. All throughout the galaxy those who were sensitive to the Force could feel the violence of the clash of titans, could feel the intensity of the test of wills.

And none felt it more deeply than did Leia Organa Solo and her unborn son. They were immersed within the sound and the fury; there, in that room, they peered into the depths of the souls of both the Dark Lord of the Sith and the Grand Master of the Jedi. And as they battled, Luke Skywalker knew that should he fail, both his sister and her child would be left defenseless and in the clutches of Palpatine the Undying.

Can there be any wonder that the humble farmboy defeated the mighty Galactic Emperor?

So your argument is DE Luke <<<<< Obi Wan+Anakin now? You do know how those symbols work right? That statement is equivalant to Obi Wan+Anakin >>>>> DE Luke. Well if you believe that, than the argument is concluded it seems.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
So your argument is DE Luke <<<<< Obi Wan+Anakin now? You do know how those symbols work right? That statement is equivalant to Obi Wan+Anakin >>>>> DE Luke. Well if you believe that, than the argument is concluded it seems. you lose and come up up with nothing...
you.................................











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a......................................














failure

it proves DE Sids has SHOWN far superior talents to anything the opposition have

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
you lose and come up up with nothing...
you.................................











are...............................



















a......................................














failure

I was just pointing out your silly error.

There were fancy metaphors in the ROTS novel describing the Yoda+ Sidious duel also. Probably the Anakin+Obi wan duel as well. Its a sign of quality writing, but it doesnt mean much in the end where versus duels are concerned.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
it proves DE Sids has SHOWN far superior talents to anything the opposition have

I agree that Sids could take them each out 1v1 but its doubtful he could take them all out in the inevitable 1v4 contest of swords.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I was just pointing out your silly error.

There were fancy metaphors in the ROTS novel describing the Yoda+ Sidious duel also. Probably the Anakin+Obi wan duel as well. Its a sign of quality writing, but it doesnt mean much in the end where versus duels are concerned. Strong in the fail, you are.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I agree that Sids could take them each out 1v1 but its doubtful he could take them all out in the inevitable 1v4 contest of swords. this isnt just a blade contest...

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
this isnt just a blade contest...

I already explained to you quite clearly why it must come down to a blade contest.

**** arguing with ignorant stubborn ass. ill let Lightsnake take this

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
**** arguing with ignorant stubborn ass. ill let Lightsnake take this

Arguing with a moron hasnt been much fun either.

Ignore him, please. Hopefully Rex'll just ban him again, and for more than one day this time.

Ugh.

KotOR 3, why make this thread?

Spite or maybe he forgot the *No more than three on a team* rule

Weren't you just arguing that Sidious would win?

Y'see, 'Spite' threads are threads in which a character faces unreasonable challenges, and therefore has no chance at winning. If you think Sidious would win, obviously, this is NOT a spite thread- at least to you, it ain't.

Either that, or you're an idiot. Pick one of them.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Weren't you just arguing that Sidious would win?

Y'see, 'Spite' threads are threads in which a character faces unreasonable challenges, and therefore has no chance at winning. If you think Sidious would win, obviously, this is NOT a spite thread- at least to you, it ain't.

Either that, or you're an idiot. Pick one of them. Spite for a actual debate... oh and im not an idiot im as smart as Penis Griffin

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Weren't you just arguing that Sidious would win?

Y'see, 'Spite' threads are threads in which a character faces unreasonable challenges, and therefore has no chance at winning. If you think Sidious would win, obviously, this is NOT a spite thread- at least to you, it ain't.

Either that, or you're an idiot. Pick one of them. Are you sids for win

No, I'm not 'Sids for win'. He can't win this match.

And who the flying f*ck is 'Penis Griffin'?

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Spite for a actual debate... oh and im not an idiot im as smart as Penis Griffin

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/160/familyguyserpentgf2.jpg

...

Where.

Originally posted by Advent
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9571/familyguyserpentnr1.jpg

i have to admit thats pretty cool

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Ugh.

KotOR 3, why make this thread?

Simply put because I knew someone would come on the thread and make an ridiculous argument as to why DE Sidious would win. I guess I am bored at work and needed entertainment.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Simply put because I knew someone would come on the thread and make an ridiculous argument as to why DE Sidious would win. I guess I am bored at work and needed entertainment. I was half expecting lightsnake or one of the remaining Antedilluvians to back me up

well i thynk dat sids shuld win becuz he iz teh strongwest sith eva so this people are no match. he obviouslyl let mace bit him and yodwa got PWNED so he shuld probbly still win.

Happy now?

Actually DE Sidious does win. He mentions to Anakin that his wife is going to die without him and Anakin turns on the Jedi like a crazy man.

Now you have two on three. Mace and Yoda vs DE and Anakin vs Obi Wan.

See, now who wins?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
well i thynk dat sids shuld win becuz he iz teh strongwest sith eva so this people are no match. he obviouslyl let mace bit him and yodwa got PWNED so he shuld probbly still win.

Happy now? lol FANBOI!ONE1!1!!!el3veN!

haha im rite ur just a troll.

ur a troll, ur a troll, im secksy pamde and leia YEiAH!

nuh-uh, pmamde and leya are just n00bs, teh hot3est person EVA iz shaak tiiii.

the mods will ban u, u littl troll.

ive been banned, im hardkour, ur a sad nooby teenaje boreder

Kenobi and Skywalker are nonfactors in an all out fight, Palpatine's mastery of the Force at this point is demonstrably higher by a notable degree than Kenobi's, Skywalker's, Windu's, or Yoda's. In a contest of swords, he is utterly crushed and annihilated however, and I am hesitant to give him the win, even though his powers outclass theirs, simply because, as swordsmen, these four are beasts, and Yoda is an extremely powerful Jedi. Regardless, though, the Jedi will take casualties.

Ok then.. close up the jedi take it but if they fail DE Sidious for the win.

I seen many threads in which DE Sidious does not win against two sith lords such as Bane and Exar Kun in a team or Revan and Bane in a team.

At the same time people would argue and have that Yoda and Mace would be a match and possibly win against a team of Bane and Exar Kun , etc.

So tell me how it is that DE Sidious wins against Yoda and Mace with two powerful Jedi such as Anakin and Obi Wan added on?

It's not that simple nor does it matter in terms of relative proximity; Emperor Palpatine, in the body of a sixty-year-old man who hadn't touched a lightsaber in over a decade, was capable of moving at speeds that outclassed four of the Jedi Order's finest swordsmen (though Windu was able to eventually match this due to the intricate nature of Vaapad). Though he isn't necessarily an "unstoppable force" as a lightsaber combatant, like Anakin Skywalker, he is by far superior to Skywalker in terms of Force potency and mastery. Count Dooku was able to overcome Kenobi quite handily with the Force, and Kenobi managed to stalemate Skywalker in their Force contest on Mustafar. Palpatine is the pinnacle of self preservation (so long as he doesn't need to use himself as bait a la Coruscant or Endor) and would likely remove Kenobi and Skywalker from the fight in an effortless sweep of the Force.

However, he also has to deal with the considerable prowess of Mace Windu and Yoda. Windu was the undisputed master of the deadliest lightsaber form in history and a master of a technique that allowed him to identify weaknesses in persons, crediting him a legitimate win over the Dark Lord prior. He is a relatively powerful Jedi Master in terms of Force mastery in his own right. Meanwhile, Yoda is the most powerful Jedi ever and was capable of stalemating Darth Sidious in Revenge of the Sith.

If the Jedi play this smart, they could win this. But, looking back at it, Palpatine is faster than they are, more powerful than they are, and is fighting solely for himself. The Jedi will have to rely on teamwork and numbers to pull through this. Kenobi and Skywalker will likely be brushed aside with the Force, Windu killed before he can submerge himself within the depths of Vaapad, and then it comes down to Sidious versus Yoda. And Sidious will win that fight.

Ok possible scars for sids (And why does everybody ingnore my arguement then when someone else comes along like gideon they freakin agree with them and refuse to admit that i had won)

It takes mere seconds for Windu to immerse himself in Vaapad, so I do not see him getting killed. And thanks to Sidious' speed, he himself will be faster than ever. Throw in the shatterpoint ability and Yoda and you have one dead Sith.

Originally posted by Faunus
It takes mere seconds for Windu to immerse himself in Vaapad, so I do not see him getting killed.

Don't you? Despite the fact that the four assembled Jedi were in battle stance and had their lightsabers ignited, Windu was unable to prevent the deaths of his allies, including Fisto, "a celebrated swordmaster", and was driven back. At that point, even though they did cross blades and it was two on one, Palpatine was still moving faster and swifter than either Windu or Fisto. Moreover, Palpatine drove Windu back into the primary office.

What do you mean by 'mere seconds'? It's not two or three or four. It's in excess of ten. Probably twenty or thirty. Moreover, Vaapad would only allow Windu to compete with Sidious on a melee level, he is nothing to the Sith Lord in a Force context.



I forgot all about that. Of course, Palpatine's superior speed would allow Windu to move at comparable speed since Vaapad is essentially a combat leech. They might win after all. That is, of course, supposing Palpatine is occupied long enough for Windu to do that.



What is the ability to identify a weakness if one cannot exploit it? Palpatine outclasses Kenobi and Skywalker in the Force on an unimaginable scale. The same with Windu. Yoda would prove to be a challenge, but we both know very well that he is no match for the Sith Lord either.

Originally posted by Faunus
ive been banned, im hardkour, ur a sad nooby teenaje boreder

u think ur hardkour rite? but teh truf iz, my mum alwayz tuld me dat if u get banned, ur not cool. so u suck i win.

Originally posted by Gideon
It's not that simple nor does it matter in terms of relative proximity; Emperor Palpatine, in the body of a sixty-year-old man who hadn't touched a lightsaber in over a decade, was capable of moving at speeds that outclassed four of the Jedi Order's finest swordsmen (though Windu was able to eventually match this due to the intricate nature of Vaapad). Though he isn't necessarily an "unstoppable force" as a lightsaber combatant, like Anakin Skywalker, he is by far superior to Skywalker in terms of Force potency and mastery. Count Dooku was able to overcome Kenobi quite handily with the Force, and Kenobi managed to stalemate Skywalker in their Force contest on Mustafar. Palpatine is the pinnacle of self preservation (so long as he doesn't need to use himself as bait a la Coruscant or Endor) and would likely remove Kenobi and Skywalker from the fight in an effortless sweep of the Force.

However, he also has to deal with the considerable prowess of Mace Windu and Yoda. Windu was the undisputed master of the deadliest lightsaber form in history and a master of a technique that allowed him to identify weaknesses in persons, crediting him a legitimate win over the Dark Lord prior. He is a relatively powerful Jedi Master in terms of Force mastery in his own right. Meanwhile, Yoda is the most powerful Jedi ever and was capable of stalemating Darth Sidious in Revenge of the Sith.

If the Jedi play this smart, they could win this. But, looking back at it, Palpatine is faster than they are, more powerful than they are, and is fighting solely for himself. The Jedi will have to rely on teamwork and numbers to pull through this. Kenobi and Skywalker will likely be brushed aside with the Force, Windu killed before he can submerge himself within the depths of Vaapad, and then it comes down to Sidious versus Yoda. And Sidious will win that fight.

Under Yoda's and Mace leadership the team will mostly likely work together. Unless Sidious uses force storm or force drain I do not see what force technique he is going to use to take out Anakin so quickly.

As shown in his fight with Dooku, Anakin can tap into his force potential at any given moment.

Originally posted by Gideon
Don't you? Despite the fact that the four assembled Jedi were in battle stance and had their lightsabers ignited, Windu was unable to prevent the deaths of his allies, including Fisto, "a celebrated swordmaster", and was driven back. At that point, even though they did cross blades and it was two on one, Palpatine was still moving faster and swifter than either Windu or Fisto. Moreover, Palpatine drove Windu back into the primary office.

What do you mean by 'mere seconds'? It's not two or three or four. It's in excess of ten. Probably twenty or thirty. Moreover, Vaapad would only allow Windu to compete with Sidious on a melee level, he is nothing to the Sith Lord in a Force context.In Shatterpoint, Depa simply closes her eyes, and when she opens them, they're "shadow." It takes a moment of concentration, that's it, but understandably longer when one is facing down the deadliest swordsman the Sith have ever produced.

Well, it's Yoda. He's the only one here who can contend with Sidious under his own power, and while he has no chance of winning he can certainly keep him occupied long enough for Mace to get going.

No match as in he can't win, but he's not outclassed to the point that he's no longer competition. I can definitely see him blitzing Palpatine in a manner similar to what Luke did to Caedus in an attempt to hold him off, and the Sith Lord won't have time to kill Skywalker, Kenobi, and Mace with the Force in the split second it would take Yoda to cover the distance between them. Not that Anakin and Obi-Wan really matter here at all.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
u think ur hardkour rite? but teh truf iz, my mum alwayz tuld me dat if u get banned, ur not cool. so u suck i win. ur mum is eskapes mums biatch, nd eskaip's mum is my biatch, and ur ur mum's biatch, ergo ur mah biatch and i own joo

"Tap into his Force potential?"

Skywalker merely outclassed the Count in swordsmanship; Dooku would still do unholy, unspeakable things to him via Force mastery. You are comparing him to Palpatine, who is smarter, stronger, and faster than Dooku -- and who is also intimately aware of Skywalker's abilities and capabilities. Skywalker is nothing to Palpatine in a Force contest.

Meanwhile, Kenobi and Skywalker, the Jedi's ultimate team, didn't function too well against Dooku. What makes you think the addition of Yoda or Windu will make a difference?

Why is this still being debated? Sidious gets annihilated and has to look for another body. The end.

Originally posted by Faunus
ur mum is eskapes mums biatch, nd eskaip's mum is my biatch, and ur ur mum's biatch, ergo ur mah biatch and i own joo

ur biatch>biatch>biatch logkic failz epiclly becuz ur mum is my biatch ergo i own u

by teh wey, did joo kno dat georje lucsas is a woman?

hahahh im su funnae!

Not annihilated, but he loses.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Why is this still being debated? Sidious gets annihilated and has to look for another body. The end. No. You're wrong and Me and Gideon have proved it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
ur biatch>biatch>biatch logkic failz epiclly becuz ur mum is my biatch ergo i own uActually, sir, my mother is a respectable and scary, scary woman who s no one's biatch. It works ONE way, man. GET YOUR OWN LINES.

So George Lucas is your mother?

KC.

Originally posted by Faunus
In Shatterpoint, Depa simply closes her eyes, and when she opens them, they're "shadow." It takes a moment of concentration, that's it, but understandably longer when one is facing down the deadliest swordsman the Sith have ever produced.

Indeed, seemingly up to half of a minute, Faunus. Palpatine can reduce their number to half in, what? A third? Fourth? Fifth of that time? It would be no effort at all for him to dispose of Kenobi and Skywalker, and I would argue that it would be easier for him to remove them than it would for Yoda to "blitz" him and occupy his attention.



He has no chance of winning, correct. Palpatine's mastery of the Force has increased exponentially. His Force lightning, pre-DE, was capable of reducing Sith acolytes to ash with one gout, destroying a batallion of stormtroopers, not to mention overpowering a Jedi general who was not only armed with a lightsaber, but capable of repelling Force lightning while laughing. How do you see that going? Palpatine is, at the very, very least, as fast as Yoda is and has increased dramatically in power. Should, for example, their lightning war occur again? Yoda's toast.



He is competition only though experience, speed, technique, and Force powers. But what if Palpatine should attack Yoda with Force lightning?

Originally posted by Gideon
"Tap into his Force potential?"

Skywalker merely outclassed the Count in swordsmanship; Dooku would still do unholy, unspeakable things to him via Force mastery. You are comparing him to Palpatine, who is smarter, stronger, and faster than Dooku -- and who is also intimately aware of Skywalker's abilities and capabilities. Skywalker is nothing to Palpatine in a Force contest.

Meanwhile, Kenobi and Skywalker, the Jedi's ultimate team, didn't function too well against Dooku. What makes you think the addition of Yoda or Windu will make a difference?

That is why I said under Yoda's and Mace leadership they would be of help. As for Anakin outclassing Dooku in swordsmanship, how did he do that? It seem that Anakin mere brute force is what took Dooku out. When I say tap in force potential, I mean Anakin became stronger in the fight. If you want to attribute it to the dark side so be it. It is the samething Luke did to Vader.

Yes Vader could have schooled Luke in the force but Luke onslaught never gave him the chance. Point is Anakin and Obi Wan should be enough of an distraction to help Yoda and Mace engage Sidious in a saber battle.

I have to go so I may not respond quickly.

Originally posted by Faunus
Actually, sir, my mother is a respectable and scary, scary woman who s no one's biatch. It works ONE way, man. GET YOUR OWN LINES.

YOU LIE!

Originally posted by Faunus
So George Lucas is your mother?

Nope. He is your aunt.

Originally posted by Faunus
KC.

Lul wut?

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
No. You're wrong and Me and Gideon have proved it.

As Gideon's master, he is only right when I make it so.











I do not.

see page 2

How? Windu and Yoda have not fought on the frontlines beside Skywalker and Kenobi. What in the whole of canon would lead you to believe that they would function as an efficient team, when Skywalker and Kenobi, the Order's greatest duo and tagteam, were unable to function as an efficient team against Dooku?



The Clone Wars depicts Skywalker eventually overcoming and defeating the Count, with Dooku sitting on his ass and at his mercy. Dooku himself muses in Labyrinth of Evil that Skywalker was a "powerful" adversary on Geonosis. Arguably, Skywalker was always a threat in terms of lightsaber combat, but was far behind the Count in terms of three categories: skill, experience, and mastery of the Force. In Revenge of the Sith, he is already forcing Dooku back; the Count cannot compete with Skywalker's vast Force reserves and physical strength. When he decides to kill Dooku, he simply becomes an engine of destruction that none of the Count's skills can handle.



Vader was conflicted and restrained the entire time.



Nothing indicates that that would happen here.

Originally posted by Gideon
Indeed, seemingly up to half of a minute, Faunus. Palpatine can reduce their number to half in, what? A third? Fourth? Fifth of that time? It would be no effort at all for him to dispose of Kenobi and Skywalker, and I would argue that it would be easier for him to remove them than it would for Yoda to "blitz" him and occupy his attention.How exactly is he going to do this to Kenobi and Skywalker? Lightning? Telekinesis?

That's pushing it. He's learned more, he's increased the potency of his lightning, and gained access to Force storms. He would be challenged by his younger (RotS) self in a duel, he'd be pushed hard by his RotJ self in a Force battle. He's not "exponentially" greater in his Force capabilities.

Not arguing this, of course.

That's assuming Palpatine is going to knock the lightsaber out of Yoda's hand or disintegrate it - which would require his attention - and then reduce him to ashes before Mace cuts him in half. It's not as simple as "He does A to Skywalker/Kenobi, B to Mace, C to Yoda."

Yoda has a lightsaber, yes? Yoda has Mace Windu, who through Vaapad can amplify his speed to match that of Sidious himself. Yoda may have Anakin and Obi-Wan as fodder provided Palpatine doesn't do away with them immediately.

I'm not arguing that Yoda could challenge DE Sidious, who is younger, stronger, and more versed in the dark side than he ever was, and hope to win. Nor am I arguing that he could stand up to the full power of the Sith Lord's lightning for more than a few seconds. But in no capacity could Palpatine simply walk all over Yoda. I mean, the Jedi can run like no other, so dodging isn't out of the question. He has a lightsaber (which of course, like the rest of him, is prone to disintegration), and in this case he has three notable allies, one of whom can - provided he has a moment undisturbed - move as fast as Sidious himself.

Originally posted by Faunus
How exactly is he going to do this to Kenobi and Skywalker? Lightning? Telekinesis?

Is this a legitimate question or skepticism? Count Dooku was driven back by Kenobi and Skywalker and still had the time to drop down and hurl Kenobi across the room; he later (despite the novel's narrative describing Dooku on the verge of "shut down" separated the two and KO'd Kenobi with minimal difficulty. Palpatine is far beyond the Count in terms of Force potency and mastery; they're not even close to being in the same league. If Dooku, despite being ignorant of Skywalker's upper tier abilities, could perform such a feat with telekinesis, it stands to reason that Palpatine could do it as well and with a fraction of the difficulty.



One of them can destroy an entire fleet of state-of-the-art ships, each equipped with high end energy shields capable of taking gigatons of energy, transmogrifying an individual across time/space, and ripping the surfaces off worlds. The other, whose feats are incredible as well, cannot do that.



You speak as though Palpatine will have to devote enough attention to Yoda as he would in a political debate in the Rotunda. He wouldn't. Palpatine is easily capable of taking Kenobi and Skywalker out of the fight with laughable ease. Yoda is not enough to keep Palpatine from doing the same with the Force to Windu.



He, intimately familiar with the capabilities of Anakin Skywalker, is certainly capable and willing to do away with them immediately. Nothing Yoda or Windu can do will change that.



Nonsense. Pre-DE Palpatine was capable of unleashing a veritable storm of Force lightning that encompassed an entire room. Palpatine doesn't miss with Force lightning.

Originally posted by Gideon
Is this a legitimate question or skepticism? Count Dooku was driven back by Kenobi and Skywalker and still had the time to drop down and hurl Kenobi across the room; he later (despite the novel's narrative describing Dooku on the verge of "shut down" separated the two and KO'd Kenobi with minimal difficulty. Palpatine is far beyond the Count in terms of Force potency and mastery; they're not even close to being in the same league. If Dooku, despite being ignorant of Skywalker's upper tier abilities, could perform such a feat with telekinesis, it stands to reason that Palpatine could do it as well and with a fraction of the difficulty.It wasn't skepticism, I'd just forgotten about the Dooku incident.

...

I thought it wasn't through his own power, but by doing something... else. Doesn't the NEC or one of those books detail it?

So are you saying that Palpatine is going to Anakin, Kenobi, and Mace out with a wave of his hand, then just obliterate Yoda?

I'm not saying Yoda or Mace will, I was questioning just how Sidious would prioritize.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Faunus
It wasn't skepticism, I'd just forgotten about the Dooku incident.

Very good.



Is this in response to my statement that Palpatine is 'far' superior to Dooku in the Force? It is true, after all.



My friend, you've been reading too much into Nebaris's theories. It's a Force technique that enables Palpatine to shatter space/time. It's not a ritual that requires meditation or an eye of newt or anything. Not that it's applicable here, either, unless he wanted to kill himself.



That's exactly what I'm telling you. As combatants, they are a threat to him, certainly. Don't allow me to come off that way. As Force users, however, they aren't. Only Yoda.



It would seem fairly common sense to casually eliminate the weakest of the bunch before they could capitalize on a position to become a threat to him, does it not? The man's a genius, after all. None of his enemies are.

Originally posted by Gideon
How? Windu and Yoda have not fought on the frontlines beside Skywalker and Kenobi. What in the whole of canon would lead you to believe that they would function as an efficient team, when Skywalker and Kenobi, the Order's greatest duo and tagteam, were unable to function as an efficient team against Dooku?

Gideon you act as if they never knew each other and were just put in a situtation. Just like soliders within the same army they would coordinate between themselves.

Dooku was once Yoda student and those same teachings filiter down to his student down to Anakin. Jedi are taught how to fight together. You can say Anakin under Obi Wan's leadership was not a good team.


Originally posted by Gideon
The Clone Wars depicts Skywalker eventually overcoming and defeating the Count, with Dooku sitting on his ass and at his mercy. Dooku himself muses in Labyrinth of Evil that Skywalker was a "powerful" adversary on Geonosis. Arguably, Skywalker was always a threat in terms of lightsaber combat, but was far behind the Count in terms of three categories: skill, experience, and mastery of the Force. In Revenge of the Sith, he is already forcing Dooku back; the Count cannot compete with Skywalker's vast Force reserves and physical strength. When he decides to kill Dooku, he simply becomes an engine of destruction that none of the Count's skills can handle.]?

Our comments are the same here. I agree with this statement.


Originally posted by Gideon
Vader was conflicted and restrained the entire time. .

Vader stated "I see you have constructed your own lightsaber". Your skills are completed".

Vader recognize that Luke had reach a certian level. Vader expected Luke to defeat him. The sitituation is similar to the Anakin and Dooku fight. Both Vader and Dooku were the superior force users but they never got a chance to engage there opponent in a force duel and was overcome in saber combat. Like Anakin, Luke tap into his force reserves and defeated Vader.

You do realize, I hope, that none of what you said is relevant or pertinent to this thread, don't you?

Originally posted by Gideon
You do realize, I hope, that none of what you said is relevant or pertinent to this thread, don't you? At least when I dick around I'm on subject.


BTW let this die honestly

Originally posted by Gideon
You do realize, I hope, that none of what you said is relevant or pertinent to this thread, don't you?

Then why did you respond? Did you forget why we were talking about Anakin and Luke.

Luke and Vader was used as an example to show what Anakin did in his fight against Dooku which you were trying to say that it was not the same.

Point was that Anakin could boost his power also in the fight with DE Sidious. Thus he wouldn't be such an easy defeat with Yoda and Mace as a distraction for DE Sidious and would provide to be a helpful hand.

See I remember, do you remember why you are on this thread?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Then why did you respond? Did you forget why we were talking about Anakin and Luke.

Luke and Vader was used as an example to show what Anakin did in his fight against Dooku which you were trying to say that it was not the same.

Point was that Anakin could boost his power also in the fight with DE Sidious. Thus he wouldn't be such an easy defeat with Yoda and Mace as a distraction for DE Sidious and would provide to be a helpful hand.

See I remember, do you remember why you are on this thread?

uh nothin Anakin or OBIGYN KENOBI ever showed proved they could survive long enough to run away from DE sids

Originally posted by Kotor3
Then why did you respond? Did you forget why we were talking about Anakin and Luke.

No, we are not talking about "Anakin & Luke", we are talking about Anakin & Kenobi and how they are relevant in this duel. They aren't, and your incessant ramblings that "LOLZ JEDI ARE LEARNED HOW TO FIGHT 2GETHER!" doesn't make it so.



If your goal is to reach new levels of incompetence, I've gotta tell you, you're fast succeeding.

LUKE AND VADER ARE IRRELEVANT.

Your point was something along the lines of "LOLZ YODA AND MACE WILL SOMEHOW JOIN WITH ANI AND OBI AND MAKE AN INCREDIBLE COHESIVE TEAM!"

My point was "LOL YOU'RE A RETARD. THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO FIGHT ALONG SIDE ONE ANOTHER *proceeds to cite example of how the Jedi's greatest duo was unable to perform cohesively against Dooku*"

Your rebuttal was "LOLZ JEDI ALWAYS FIGHT WELL TOGETHER NAAA!"



Ah, yes, I did forget something. In addition to the verbal excrement you provided above, your other point was:

"LOLZ ANAKIN WILL AUTOMATICALLY HAVE A RANDOM BOOST IN TEH FORCE AND HELP OWN SIDZ!"

...Except you haven't proven how or when that will happen or how that somehow makes Anakin immune to Sidious's vastly superior Force energies.



Yeah, look, I'll only be nice about this once: you have made absolutely zero points of relevance. You haven't quantified or substantiated any of your asinine claims. You have in effect only succeeded in wasting space, much like DarkSerpent. You are no better than he is. Don't mock me, you're wasting time. Especially when I point out how big of an ass you are. When you want to be the e-bad boy or whatever on campass, at least make sure you're taken seriously.

You're not. Your points are shit. Accept it and move on with what little life you have on the side.


EDIT: I'll be damned. DarkSerpent actually made a logical and cogent point. Guess he's climbed over you in the debating ladder.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, we are not talking about "Anakin & Luke", we are talking about Anakin & Kenobi and how they are relevant in this duel. They aren't, and your incessant ramblings that "LOLZ JEDI ARE LEARNED HOW TO FIGHT 2GETHER!" doesn't make it so.



If your goal is to reach new levels of incompetence, I've gotta tell you, you're fast succeeding.

LUKE AND VADER ARE IRRELEVANT.

Your point was something along the lines of "LOLZ YODA AND MACE WILL SOMEHOW JOIN WITH ANI AND OBI AND MAKE AN INCREDIBLE COHESIVE TEAM!"

My point was "LOL YOU'RE A RETARD. THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO FIGHT ALONG SIDE ONE ANOTHER *proceeds to cite example of how the Jedi's greatest duo was unable to perform cohesively against Dooku*"

Your rebuttal was "LOLZ JEDI ALWAYS FIGHT WELL TOGETHER NAAA!"



Ah, yes, I did forget something. In addition to the verbal excrement you provided above, your other point was:

"LOLZ ANAKIN WILL AUTOMATICALLY HAVE A RANDOM BOOST IN TEH FORCE AND HELP OWN SIDZ!"

...Except you haven't proven how or when that will happen or how that somehow makes Anakin immune to Sidious's vastly superior Force energies.



Yeah, look, I'll only be nice about this once: you have made absolutely zero points of relevance. You haven't quantified or substantiated any of your asinine claims. You have in effect only succeeded in wasting space, much like DarkSerpent. You are no better than he is. Don't mock me, you're wasting time. Especially when I point out how big of an ass you are. When you want to be the e-bad boy or whatever on campass, at least make sure you're taken seriously.

You're not. Your points are shit. Accept it and move on with what little life you have on the side. Plz dont waste time on him... Atleast im fun pick on.

Don't worry. Though I believe most of your points lack any humor or relevance and you should conform or be banned, you have already identified yourself as a greater logician than this hack.

Originally posted by Gideon

EDIT: I'll be damned. DarkSerpent actually made a logical and cogent point. Guess he's climbed over you in the debating ladder. Look its not that I am a idiot, its just that I love screwing around.However, occasionally with such a shituation as that I'll be serious, if only for a moment.

Dudes, you know who could, like, totally solo DE Sids? If Exar visited Anakin and gave him his amulet, ROTS Pre-suit Vader.


Omgwhatawetdream.

Yeah, well in all my Vulcan logic if its a force fight, then Palpatine takes it with serious difficulty(the sheer numbers,if two are taken out early then he still gonna feel some wear and tear but nowhere near as much)

Close-up sabers, is a different story(if he can take out Mace and somebody else early its a definite) while Anakin and Ob1 will have a funeral for damn sure, I simply don't know if Palpatine is going to survive this either..(I admit my ignorance, for I have wisdom Unlike Kotar Thweey)

Obviously. I've said it before: if it were a lightsaber duel, they'd take it with extraordinarily stupid ease.

nu-uh...
he'd kill one of them

so that splitardedly easy

Stop breathing.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Stop breathing. Never...

ROFL why is this still going on. Stop being a fanboy Gideon. Palps doesnt magically wave his hand and annihilate people. Force storm isnt applicable here, so that leaves us with Palpys force lightning as his primary force attack. I already explained to Darkserpent how this will not be effective against 4 opponents because he will have to split his power, and Yoda or Mace will inevitably break out of his half assed lightning attack and then force it into a saber battle. 1v4 with two opponents being rather close to Sids in power, I think you will agree that the Jedi win out. And your underrating Anakin and Obi Wan alot. They are far from weak, in fact it could stand to reason that Anakin is close to DE Luke in power. Think about it, Anakin has as much potential as Luke does if not more, and has trained alot longer. I'll grant that DE Luke has shown more impressive feats.

But either way, Sids dies in this battle, the odds are stacked against him.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
ROFL why is this still going on. Stop being a fanboy Gideon. Palps doesnt magically wave his hand and annihilate people. Force storm isnt applicable here, so that leaves us with Palpys force lightning as his primary force attack. I already explained to Darkserpent how this will not be effective against 4 opponents because he will have to split his power, and Yoda or Mace will inevitably break out of his half assed lightning attack and then force it into a saber battle. 1v4 with two opponents being rather close to Sids in power, I think you will agree that the Jedi win out. And your underrating Anakin and Obi Wan alot. They are far from weak, in fact it could stand to reason that Anakin is close to DE Luke in power. Think about it, Anakin has as much potential as Luke does if not more, and has trained alot longer. I'll grant that DE Luke has shown more impressive feats.

But either way, Sids dies in this battle, the odds are stacked against him. Dude shut the hell up, if its any one being a fanboy here its you considering that your extremely biased against sidious and a kotor raging hormone fanboy.

Gideon is FAR from being a fanboy seeing that he is one of, if not the best debater(in my opinion) in the SWV as well as one of the most respected and acknowledged.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Dude shut the hell up, if its any one being a fanboy here its you considering that your extremely biased against sidious and a kotor raging hormone fanboy.

Gideon is FAR from being a fanboy seeing that he is one of, if not the best debater(in my opinion) in the SWV as well as one of the most respected and acknowledged.

Owned.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, we are not talking about "Anakin & Luke", we are talking about Anakin & Kenobi and how they are relevant in this duel. They aren't, and your incessant ramblings that "LOLZ JEDI ARE LEARNED HOW TO FIGHT 2GETHER!" doesn't make it so.



If your goal is to reach new levels of incompetence, I've gotta tell you, you're fast succeeding.

LUKE AND VADER ARE IRRELEVANT.

Your point was something along the lines of "LOLZ YODA AND MACE WILL SOMEHOW JOIN WITH ANI AND OBI AND MAKE AN INCREDIBLE COHESIVE TEAM!"

My point was "LOL YOU'RE A RETARD. THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO FIGHT ALONG SIDE ONE ANOTHER *proceeds to cite example of how the Jedi's greatest duo was unable to perform cohesively against Dooku*"

Your rebuttal was "LOLZ JEDI ALWAYS FIGHT WELL TOGETHER NAAA!"



Ah, yes, I did forget something. In addition to the verbal excrement you provided above, your other point was:

"LOLZ ANAKIN WILL AUTOMATICALLY HAVE A RANDOM BOOST IN TEH FORCE AND HELP OWN SIDZ!"

...Except you haven't proven how or when that will happen or how that somehow makes Anakin immune to Sidious's vastly superior Force energies.



Yeah, look, I'll only be nice about this once: you have made absolutely zero points of relevance. You haven't quantified or substantiated any of your asinine claims. You have in effect only succeeded in wasting space, much like DarkSerpent. You are no better than he is. Don't mock me, you're wasting time. Especially when I point out how big of an ass you are. When you want to be the e-bad boy or whatever on campass, at least make sure you're taken seriously.

You're not. Your points are shit. Accept it and move on with what little life you have on the side.


EDIT: I'll be damned. DarkSerpent actually made a logical and cogent point. Guess he's climbed over you in the debating ladder.


You are quite funny. You are being nice as if I need you to be. Get off the high seat. I already stated that I was not serious when I made this thread. But look the great debater is going to show everyone how DE Sidious could win.

Great debaters do not need to throw in insults, they give good and valid arguments as to why there points are correct.

Here is some point’s great debater, you never gave any examples as to what force attacks Sidious would use to take Anakin and Obi Wan out quickly. Clearly if you have you could have changed people minds. All you said was "Palpatine's mastery of the Force at this point is demonstrably higher by a notable degree than Kenobi's, Skywalker's, Windu's, or Yoda's". Duh!

Gideon you are full of yourself and you make me laugh with your arguments. Oh and you are the silly one to think that two Jedi won’t work coordinate together under the right leadership. They are trained soldiers but once again I should be quite against the great debater.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Dude shut the hell up, if its any one being a fanboy here its you considering that your extremely biased against sidious and a kotor raging hormone fanboy.

Gideon is FAR from being a fanboy seeing that he is one of, if not the best debater(in my opinion) in the SWV as well as one of the most respected and acknowledged.

Why does he need to shut up? GV brought up good arguments that have not been addressed. GV point is that Sidious would not be able to execute certain force attacks. Does this would lead to a saber fight.

If you cannot bring up a valid argument then don't reply. No one needs to here about how good Gideon is at throwing insults. He definitely has not shown good debating skills in this thread.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
so that splitardedly easyGet off my word, *****.

*Force-chokes*

And Vengeance, Gideon's right. If Sidious manages to kill Mace with the Force, he wins. The only one who's a remote threat to him in that field is Yoda, and even he has no shot at a win alone. Anakin and Obi-Wan are too slow and lack the Force capabilities to do anything at all to the Sith Lord. So the only one here who can take him down is Mace, and that's if he manages to submerge himself in Vaapad quickly and turn Sidious' speed into his own. From there, victory for the Jedi is a likelihood. But if Mace dies, they all die, and if Yoda dies, they all probably die.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Why does he need to shut up? GV brought up good arguments that have not been addressed. GV point is that Sidious would not be able to execute certain force attacks. Does this would lead to a saber fight.
Good arguments? Good arguments and bullshit claims such as sidious not becoming anymore powerful in DE when it is stated in various sources that he did? How about crap like "Omg S!d!oUs c@n't us3 f@rce st0rM B3Cuz ! s@y s0!!!!!1!111!!oneone!!11one"

My god are you that delusional?


GV is FAR from even being close to a half decent debater(IMO), i don't consider kotor fanboys with raging hormones good debaters, especially those who jerk off everytime they hear "revan" or "nihilus"
Originally posted by Kotor3

If you cannot bring up a valid argument then don't reply. No one needs to here about how good Gideon is at throwing insults. He definitely has not shown good debating skills in this thread. The thing is i CAN bring up solid and valid arguments but the only problem is i simply don't give a shit about debating in this forum seeing that i have far better things to do(preparing for a bodybuilding contest and school).

And please don't tell me crap like "Z0mG g!d3oN i$ n0 tExP0s!nG h!s d!ck t0 sh0W h!s Ub@h d3b@t!ng skiLs In t!s tHr3@d" when you are simply lying to yourself about it.
Face it, hes far better than you.

Oh and incase you didn't notice(its funny because you claimed that you had been reading these forums even before you registered) is that the good debaters in this forum tend to insult people when they argue(Gideon, Lightsnake, Advent, Faunus, darth sexy), even i tend to insult sometimes but there are times it becomes necessary to do so.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Good arguments? Good arguments and bullshit claims such as sidious not becoming anymore powerful in DE when it is stated in various sources that he did? How about crap like "Omg S!d!oUs c@n't us3 f@rce st0rM B3Cuz ! s@y s0!!!!!1!111!!oneone!!11one"

My god are you that delusional?

You have not proven they are not. So I disagree. I feel they are good arguments. No thanks for your opinion though.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger

GV is FAR from even being close to a half decent debater(IMO), i don't consider kotor fanboys with raging hormones good debaters, especially those who jerk off everytime they hear "revan" or "nihilus"
The thing is i CAN bring up solid and valid arguments but the only problem is i simply don't give a shit about debating in this forum seeing that i have far better things to do(preparing for a bodybuilding contest and school).

I wasn't expecting any valid arguments on this thread. I am surprise it went this far.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger

And please don't tell me crap like "Z0mG g!d3oN i$ n0 tExP0s!nG h!s d!ck t0 sh0W h!s Ub@h d3b@t!ng skiLs In t!s tHr3@d" when you are simply lying to yourself about it.
Face it, hes far better than you.

Well we do know one thing, you love Gideon!

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger

Oh and incase you didn't notice(its funny because you claimed that you had been reading these forums even before you registered) is that the good debaters in this forum tend to insult people when they argue(Gideon, Lightsnake, Advent, Faunus, darth sexy), even i tend to insult sometimes but there are times it becomes necessary to do so.

Yes I have and there are people who I feel are jackasses but I will not name them. Just because I have seen insults does not mean I will let them go by especially when there is no reason for it.

This thread is not a serious one. Gideon threw out insults why because his pride was hurt? Don't try to make an excuse for him, we know you love him.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
ROFL why is this still going on. Stop being a fanboy Gideon. Palps doesnt magically wave his hand and annihilate people.Uh, Dooku does it. Bane does it. The most powerful Sith Lord in history can do it, too.

Lightning that can vaporize metal hangings, lightsabers, and Dark side acolytes.

What do you mean, "split his power"? Is this Dragonball Z?

No, Sidious could tear up Anakin and Obi-Wan fairly easily here. But that's where he stops, because with Yoda on top of him he won't be able to kill Windu fast enough to prevent the Vaapad effect.

Anakin would defeat Luke in a duel, but Luke would dominate him in a contest of the Force. Luke is, by this point, more powerful than Anakin ever became.

Since your so fond of being obnoxious, it be great to hand your ass to you.
Originally posted by Kotor3
You have not proven they are not. So I disagree. I feel they are good arguments. No thanks for your opinion though.
I don't need to "prove" that they are not "good" arguments, anybody with half a brain can tell that his arguments are riddled with blatant bullshit.

Faunus(one of the great ones) just had the liberty to happily smash that excuse for an argument to pieces.



You sir remind me of the geth from mass effect, the more of them gathered, the more intelligent they get, but when we talk about kotor fanboys(such as yourself), the more of them you mix together , the less intelligent they become.

Apparently you seem to sexually fellate GV ALOT.


http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5563/funny1cp7.gif






Originally posted by Kotor3

I wasn't expecting any valid arguments on this thread. I am surprise it went this far.
Then get the f*ck off.

Originally posted by Kotor3

Well we do know one thing, you love Gideon!
Bad attempt at a comeback, and as a catholic we DO believe in loving others, not in that gay sense such as you who has extremely disturbing fantasies with kotor characters.

Originally posted by Kotor3

Yes I have and there are people who I feel are jackasses but I will not name them. Just because I have seen insults does not mean I will let them go by especially when there is no reason for it. Please what could you possibly do to them? Like anybody actually gives half a shit for your motives.
Originally posted by Kotor3

This thread is not a serious one. Gideon threw out insults why because his pride was hurt? Don't try to make an excuse for him, we know you love him. Pride? Gideon? LOL he insults when it is necessary, i don't see him as a "proud biatch" unlike you who thinks so highly of himself.

I'm not making an excuse for him "friend", had you actually spent a little more time in SWV you would realise that everybody insults one another during frustrating and heated debates, just because they are good debaters does not mean they are angels, its all human nature pal.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Since your so fond of being obnoxious, it be great to hand your ass to you.
I don't need to "prove" that they are not "good" arguments, anybody with half a brain can tell that his arguments are riddled with blatant bullshit.



You sir remind me of the geth from mass effect, the more of them gathered, the more intelligent they get, but when we talk about kotor fanboys, the more of them you mix together(such as yourself) , the less intelligent they become.

Apparently you seem to sexually fellate GV ALOT.


http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5563/funny1cp7.gif






Then get the f*ck off.

Bad attempt at a comeback, and as a catholic we DO believe in loving others, not in that gay sense such as you who has extremely disturbing fantasies with kotor characters.

Please what could you possibly do to them? Like anybody actually gives half a shit for your motives.
Pride? Gideon? LOL he insults when it is necessary, i don't see him as a "proud biatch" unlike you who thinks so highly of himself.

I'm not making an excuse for him "friend", had you actually spent a little more time in SWV you would realise that everybody insults one another during frustrating and heated debates, just because they are good debaters does not mean they are angels, its all human nature pal.

You really handed my ass to me with those statements. Cool down Schwarzenegger, nobody is calling you gay. Cursing now are we? Even though this is quite entertaining to me I will leave you alone since you are so sensitive.

There doesn't even seem a remote possibility that sidious could win. Has this seriously been debated for 5 pages? You have what were probably the TOP FOUR duelists in the order against one sith lord. This lord is the extremely powerful sidious, true, BUT was defeated by a DE Luke and Leia. Now: if this thread were Luke and Leia from DE against the 4, there would be no chance of them winning. it would be laughable at best. Luke was a weaker version of himself in DE than we know of him now, this was before JA was it not?

all that besides, think of the technical aspect of this fight. We say that the B team was owned by Sidious in ROTS because they didn't have the speed to even see or comprehend what was happening compared to Sidoius. Obviously this was not the case for Mace or Yoda, and our own eyes tell us that Obi-wan and Anakin fought at an even greater speed in ROTS, so you can't assume they would be slaughtered like the B team was.

If sidious stood back and attacked them with the force, his most powerful attack that would work in close combat would be lightning, and it ABSOLUTELY is the most powerful attack we know of him using in combat, not to mention that Sith after Sith after sith has used it in combat, not some crazy ritual, so chances are its the most effective attack, and therefore the one sidious will use.
Each of these jedi can at the very least catch lightning on his saber. Yoda can catch it. (perhaps not against DE sidious however, but he could still use the classic lightsaber defense)
If sidious has DOUBLED in power between ROTS and DE, which is unlikely considering the scant amount of time to pass compared to the rest of his training, then he is still going to be required to do the following: split lightning between FOUR opponents at once. This means one of them will not recieve more than 1/2 of his attack from ROTS. Mace or Yoda could hold off such an attack with relative ease, and i have a hard time believing the other two would be overwhelmed, unless you are putting mace and yoda on a level TWICE as powerful as anakin and obi-wan. Once that attack fails, its on to a saber duel, and then Sidious dies. If he concentrates his entire attack on one opponent at once, he would probably succeed in killing about ONE of his opponents before someone else cut him down. He can't launch a full out lightning storm on someone and defend himself with a lightsaber at the same time.
I just don't understand how sidious could be thought to have a chance in this, nothing against sidious, but he is facing probably 4 of the top 10 duelist in history. Sidous would HAVE to use an attack other than lightning, if anyone knows of something else that sidious knows to destroy the jedi with the force other than lightning, present that knowledge, and i'll rethink my assessment, but you split 2x his ROTS voltage by four, and i just don't think its possible.

Originally posted by truejedi
There doesn't even seem a remote possibility that sidious could win. Has this seriously been debated for 5 pages? You have what were probably the TOP FOUR duelists in the order against one sith lord. This lord is the extremely powerful sidious, true, BUT was defeated by a DE Luke and Leia. Now: if this thread were Luke and Leia from DE against the 4, there would be no chance of them winning. it would be laughable at best. Luke was a weaker version of himself in DE than we know of him now, this was before JA was it not?

all that besides, think of the technical aspect of this fight. We say that the B team was owned by Sidious in ROTS because they didn't have the speed to even see or comprehend what was happening compared to Sidoius. Obviously this was not the case for Mace or Yoda, and our own eyes tell us that Obi-wan and Anakin fought at an even greater speed in ROTS, so you can't assume they would be slaughtered like the B team was.

If sidious stood back and attacked them with the force, his most powerful attack that would work in close combat would be lightning, and it ABSOLUTELY is the most powerful attack we know of him using in combat, not to mention that Sith after Sith after sith has used it in combat, not some crazy ritual, so chances are its the most effective attack, and therefore the one sidious will use.
Each of these jedi can at the very least catch lightning on his saber. Yoda can catch it. (perhaps not against DE sidious however, but he could still use the classic lightsaber defense)
If sidious has DOUBLED in power between ROTS and DE, which is unlikely considering the scant amount of time to pass compared to the rest of his training, then he is still going to be required to do the following: split lightning between FOUR opponents at once. This means one of them will not recieve more than 1/2 of his attack from ROTS. Mace or Yoda could hold off such an attack with relative ease, and i have a hard time believing the other two would be overwhelmed, unless you are putting mace and yoda on a level TWICE as powerful as anakin and obi-wan. Once that attack fails, its on to a saber duel, and then Sidious dies. If he concentrates his entire attack on one opponent at once, he would probably succeed in killing about ONE of his opponents before someone else cut him down. He can't launch a full out lightning storm on someone and defend himself with a lightsaber at the same time.
I just don't understand how sidious could be thought to have a chance in this, nothing against sidious, but he is facing probably 4 of the top 10 duelist in history. Sidous would HAVE to use an attack other than lightning, if anyone knows of something else that sidious knows to destroy the jedi with the force other than lightning, present that knowledge, and i'll rethink my assessment, but you split 2x his ROTS voltage by four, and i just don't think its possible.

I believe Gideon is favored to debate this one. The points you and GV made concerning DE Sidious available force attacks he could use in this fight is the main reason he would lose.

I guess we will wait and see if Gideon or someone else can state what force attacks Sidious could use to turn this fight in his favor.

@'Schwarzenegger' I have no time to respond to dumbasses like you. You didnt provide any arguments at all, all you did was try to protect Gideon like hes your boyfriend or something. Grow up, Gideon can handle himself.

@Faunus



So they do infact wave there hand and annihilate people then? Sources would be nice, or atleast identify the attack you are talking about.



Umm show me where DE Sids can vaporize lightsabers or even people and then we will talk.



Lightning is a form of energy. Energy is more potent when its concentrated. Physics 101.



No, he wouldnt. Theres nothing to suggest Anakin and Obi wan would be teared apart here before Yoda and Mace can even get in range. And by that time Sids will be too occupied with protecting himself, if he went all out against Anakin or Obi Wan by that time he would lose his head to Yoda or Mace.



Ill agree that Luke is stronger, but not by as much as you think. And if DE Luke can give DE Sids a run for his money, do you really think its reasonable that DE Sids would annihilate Anakin in .5 seconds?

And for the record Faunus I respect you, and think your a pretty cool guy. But I think your just doing this to help Gideon out, and hes quite capable of arguing this himself. I called him a fanboy because thats what he is, hes supported Sidious ever since Ive known him. Calling somone a fanboy isnt a bad insult though, unlike some of the shit thats been going down in this thread.

He disintegrates Leia's lightsaber in Dark Empire with what looks like a wave of his hand. But perhaps it was Force Lightning and I missed it. That should be up for some debate though, considering the lightsaber she was using was literally 10,000 years old, and was created from the less powerful organic crystals they used back then, instead of the synthetic crystals that the Jedi create themselves in later times (which are far more powerful).

For the record, I agree with your arguments in this particular thread, GV.

Also in the resurrection comic (Pre ANH) btw Sidious's lightning chars 3 dark acolytes into skeletons. So I don't see how DE Sidious couldn't do the same .

Oh, where to begin? We'll deal with kotor3 first.



I would use the same "I wasn't being serious" excuse as well if I didn't create a thread and then offer serious(ly stupid) rebuttals and watched them get shredded. Sadly, I've never found myself in such a predicament, though I'm fairly certain I could manage it with greater class than you can muster.



I have already done so. Your inappropriate sarcasm was equally unnecessary. It's evident that you're not held in high regard, so let's not pretend that your opinion actually means something in the grand scheme of things. This is the status quo. Save your personal outrage with me until such a time when you can actually summon the ability to debate on a level exceeding that of your local Special Ed. class, which I would highly recommend that you join.



Your apparent inability to read makes me question why I should take the time to answer you again and again. This will be for the final time. Despite the fact that he was pushed on the defensive, desperate, and in the throes of what would be a "Force shut down", Count Dooku managed to disable Obi-Wan with mere telekinesis not once but twice, while simultaneously keeping Skywalker at bay. Moreover, Skywalker later demonstrates Force mastery that is only equal to Kenobi's during their duel on Mustafar. Here, we are dealing with an individual whose potency and mastery of the Force is lightyears ahead of Count Dooku's. It is logical that Darth Sidious, at this point, would be easily capable of manhandling Kenobi and Skywalker simultaneously with sheer telekinesis, since he is aware of their abilities intimately and is a strong proponent of self preservation.



Do you typically laugh when being beaten in an argument? That's actually quite admirable. The rest of us laugh when we find genuine humor in situations, such as the sheer hilarity of your rebuttals and apparent illiteracy.



Someone has spent too much time playing KotOR and actually hasn't watched the movies. For the record, the movies are vastly more important or better than that game. Here is one clear statement from Mace Windu in Attack of the Clones: "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

Moreover, I've explained to you once that a powerful, seasoned duo (the Jedi Order's greatest team) was unable to fight efficiently against Dooku. What makes you think that the presence of Windu or Yoda would make a difference, since they have never worked with Skywalker or Kenobi in combat?

In essence, your syllogism is absolutely retarded. Since you cannot summon the courtesy of actually forming a logical argument, perhaps you would spend the rest of your overabundant time making up better excuses for your grotesque failures?

Thanks,
Gideon.

On to Great Vengeance.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@'Schwarzenegger' I have no time to respond to dumbasses like you. You didnt provide any arguments at all, all you did was try to protect Gideon like hes your boyfriend or something. Grow up, Gideon can handle himself.Just ignore the rants, man.

Force-crush, Morichro/Malacia (although these take longer), the grip/choke/throw that Dooku did to Kenobi, Force-sever, or simply lock them into stasis. Master Farfalla managed to do this to Bane for a split second, so Sidious would certainly be able to do it to people not even remotely close to him in Force mastery.

See Enyalus' post.

Sidious, with one hand, disintegrated a lightsaber. If he does this to Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Mace, they're rendered useless.

That's my point. I'm not giving Sidious a real chance to win, here not at all. I don't see him overwhelming Anakin and Obi-Wan before Yoda gets in his face and/or Mace dips into Vaapad and basically leeches whatever speed he tries to use.

Luke, when by himself, got owned in two moves by Sidious. Anakin would last a little longer in a duel for sure, but his mastery of the Force pales in comparison to that of the older Luke, who can blow up droids with a gesture in a manner similar to the ancient Jedi Masters, shield himself against AT-AT laser blasts, and literally force said machine into the ground.

Wurd.

I'm sure he is. And trust me, there's no reason for me to come to his defense. But if I see faulty arguments and I'm interested enough, I respond to them.

I'm going to deny bias, but calling someone a fanboy's a copout.

Originally posted by Gideon

I have already done so. Your inappropriate sarcasm was equally unnecessary. It's evident that you're not held in high regard, so let's not pretend that your opinion actually means something in the grand scheme of things. This is the status quo. Save your personal outrage with me until such a time when you can actually summon the ability to debate on a level exceeding that of your local Special Ed. class, which I would highly recommend that you join.


Lol this was funny as hell so considered it profiled.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
ROFL why is this still going on. Stop being a fanboy Gideon.

You will pardon me if I don't take demands of an individual who, judging by the extent of his claims (LOLZ REVAN > YODA and REVAN > SIDIOUS; your ignorance of the items regarding Dark Empire), apparently has no understanding of canon or of continuity. Given your incredible ignorance, rather than attack me and accuse me of fanboyism, you would do better to ask questions rather than assume I'm wrong.



Count Dooku did it to these very same individuals, despite being pushed on the defensive, desperate, and going into Force shut down during their lightsaber exchange. The Emperor is considerably more powerful than the Count as of Revenge of the Sith and vastly so circa Dark Empire.



Palpatine is the undisputed master of Force knowledge in the mythos. His knowledge of the Force and its technique surpass any and all individuals in depth and width. I find it a bit silly to assume he'll just rely on Force lightning. Not that it matters, of course, since it is all he'll need. He's capable of, around A New Hope, disintegrating three powerful Sith acolytes into ash with a casual burst; lighting up his entire office and destroying a batallion of stormtroopers; and mortally injuring two Jedi at a time when each usage of the Force brought him closer to death's door and he was "barely able to walk."



He's capable of waving his hand and disposing of the lesser Jedi. Windu can only compete with Sidious on a physical level after the many seconds it takes to submerge in Vaapad, but otherwise he is equally vulnerable to the Emperor's superior command of the Force. The only Jedi here remotely comparable to the Emperor is Yoda.



It won't be one versus four and none of them are "close." Though, I already said, if this were a saber fight, he'd be ****ed to an unquantifiable degree.



Your suppositions =/= fact. I don't necessarily disagree with the comparison to Luke, but you'll need to provide far more proof than this.



You, actually, haven't proven that at all nor come close.

Gideon, can you give us a senario where Sidious will be able to beat the team? I think they're smart enough to know that sabers is their best chance, and Sids is smart enough to realize that he must avoid a duel.

How many feet should be separating the team from Sidious to give him a chance, would surrounding him make a difference (I assume not with Bane's type of Force Storm coming into play), etc.?

All-out, of course.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@'Schwarzenegger' I have no time to respond to dumbasses like you. You didnt provide any arguments at all, all you did was try to protect Gideon like hes your boyfriend or something. Grow up, Gideon can handle himself.

He certainly can and, if he may say so, doing a spectacular job.



Simple. Telekinesis. Revenge of Sith. Final time I will offer such an explanation.



Show you where Dark Empire Sidious can vaporize lightsabers? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say... Dark Empire.



Irrelevant. Palpatine can create lightning storms that fill rooms. He's already demonstrated the ability to overpower Yoda and Windu with lightning even when they're armed with lightsabers.



He waves his hand, Kenobi and Skywalker are gone. It's as simple as that.



Luke can't do shit against Palpatine in this era in the Force and his lightsaber victory was under ambiguous circumstances, though, as I said, Palpatine would be royally ****ed if this came down to a lightsaber fight. It won't, though.



This is where people confuse fanboyism with reality. Canon has shown that Palpatine is stronger than previous Sith, smarter than previous Sith, is more knowledgeable than previous Sith, and more successful than previous Sith. I'm just the messenger. You want the real Sidious fanboys? Take it up with LFL.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, can you give us a senario where Sidious will be able to beat the team? I think they're smart enough to know that sabers is their best chance, and Sids is smart enough to realize that he must avoid a duel.

None of them have ever faced Dark Empire Sidious before. In his previous incarnation, Yoda was able to fight him to a standstill and Windu was able to gain a legitimate victory over him. He knows far more about his opponents than they know about him.



It doesn't matter. As I said, if it's close enough that they can just rush him in three tenths of a second and make this a lightsaber duel, he'll be owned. But he is faster than all four of them. Moreover, yes, he can overpower any of them with Force lightning and is capable of spreading it out to encompass a room.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@'Schwarzenegger' I have no time to respond to dumbasses like you. You didnt provide any arguments at all, all you did was try to protect Gideon like hes your boyfriend or something. Grow up, Gideon can handle himself.




If its anyone being a dumbass, its you hun, making absurd claims without backing it up and calling other people a dumbass?

Again i made it clear(its a pity you don't know how to read) as to why i didn't make any arguments in the first place, your inability to read is completely not my damn problem.

Oh and i didn't "protect" gideon, i simply respect him and needed to shut up a kotor fangay that tried to make gideon look like a dumbass, and people like you lack respect for anyone hence nobody is going to take you seriously.

Not happy with me? Do as the man faunus said, ignore me, theres a reason why they put the "ignore" option in the first place.



Originally posted by Kotor3
You really handed my ass to me with those statements. Cool down Schwarzenegger, nobody is calling you gay. Cursing now are we? Even though this is quite entertaining to me I will leave you alone since you are so sensitive. The thing is i AM gay, in the sense that i'm "happy and cheerful".

I just happen to enjoy insulting people with ragiing shemale hormones(like you).

Thats enough.. for now, i'll just add both of you into my "ignore list" for the time being so don't even bother thinking of replying.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
If its anyone being a dumbass, its you hun, making absurd claims without backing it up and calling other people a dumbass?

Again i made it clear(its a pity you don't know how to read) as to why i didn't make any arguments in the first place, your inability to read is completely not my damn problem.

Oh and i didn't "protect" gideon, i simply respect him and needed to shut up a kotor fangay that tried to make gideon look like a dumbass, and people like you lack respect for anyone hence nobody is going to take you seriously.

Not happy with me? Do as the man faunus said, ignore me, theres a reason why they put the "ignore" option in the first place.



The thing is i AM gay, in the sense that i'm "happy and cheerful".

I just happen to enjoy insulting people with ragiing shemale hormones(like you).

Thats enough.. for now, i'll just add both of you into my "ignore list" for the time being so don't even bother thinking of replying. Whoa that was...intense. will you go out with me.plz.

@Faunus


Force crush is an attack in kotor, its a game mechanic so I doubt its even canon. And Sidious has certainly not shown to be able to do it so lets leave it at that. Being the top sith isnt proof that he knows all techniques, like you and Gideon seem to believe. As you said, Morichro would take too long to save himself from getting engaged in a lightsaber duel. Force choke would take too long, force grip and throw arent fatal attacks they would merely buy him a bit of time. Sidious has never shown force sever, and I dont believe hes shown force stasis. Its possible he knows these attacks, but already your assuming much, and why doesnt he ever use them in situations where they would of been useful? Against Vader for instance. Stasis would of saved his ass from dieing.



Okay granted, but notice Enyalus' arguments also. And he used it against Leia. I doubt it would work as easily against a competent force user.



See above.