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Can DE Sidious win?

yes

Nah I doubt it. Against Yoda alone would be a good fight for DE Sidious, because remember that there is not much to substantiate a huge gain in power between ROTS and DE other than a younger body. Then add Mace who is close to Yoda and arguably defeated Sidious already in ROTS. Then add two other competent swordsman and thats alot of blades trying to take off Palpys head. He wouldnt likely have time to summon a force storm, and force lightning only works against a single opponent because it requires free use of your hands which would lead himself open against his other attackers. It would just come down to lightsaber combat and I doubt Palpy could win against all four that way.

Possibly force storm of Kotor to attack all at once

oh wait your gonna come up with some lame ass argument as to why it isn't a canon attack

as far as sabers go sids is just to quick if he takes windu out quickly enough then the rest fall

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Possibly force storm of Kotor to attack all at once

oh wait your gonna come up with some lame ass argument as to why it isn't a canon attack

Force storm in kotor is just a higher level force lightning attack. It isnt the same as Palpys force storms. Sidious might be able to attack them all at once with lightning, though I dont believe hes shown this before, and if one of them broke out of it like Yoda was able to than he would be wide open to get himself killed. That isnt to far fetched either because if he was firing lightning at multiple opponents than it would be necessary to divide his power.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
as far as sabers go sids is just to quick if he takes windu out quickly enough then the rest fall

Nope against four blades Sidious would have to take a more defensive stance. If he goes all out against Mace to try to kill him, somone will no doubt gank him from behind.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nope against four blades Sidious would have to take a more defensive stance. If he goes all out against Mace to try to kill him, somone will no doubt gank him from behind. Gank?!


oh and i think he is considerbly more powerful by DE... so lightning is Much more effective...

i like the three dots

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Gank?!


oh and i think he is considerbly more powerful by DE... so lightning is Much more effective...

i like the three dots

Lets say for the sake of argument that DE Sidious is four times as powerful as ROTS Sidious(this is far from true, I doubt that DE Sidious even increased his power twofold). Sidous would still have to divide his power four way against four opponents, so Yoda would likely break out of it just like he did in ROTS, and probably Mace also since he would still have his lightsaber. Then Sidious must inevitably engage them in lightsaber combat or else he dies, which frees up Anakin and Obi wan to come help.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Lets say for the sake of argument that DE Sidious is four times as powerful as ROTS Sidious(this is far from true, I doubt that DE Sidious even increased his power twofold). Sidous would still have to divide his power four way against four opponents, so Yoda would likely break out of it just like he did in ROTS, and probably Mace also since he would still have his lightsaber. Then Sidious must inevitably engage them in lightsaber combat or else he dies, which frees up Anakin and Obi wan to come help. No he Pulls a WTFPWN(like he did on the
b-team ) on ob1 and dispatch Anakin with the similar to what dooku did

then its Mace vs yoda... lets argue this

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
No he Pulls a WTFPWN(like he did on the
b-team ) on ob1 and dispatch Anakin with the similar to what dooku did

then its Mace vs yoda... lets argue this

Those Jedi who went to arrest him in ROTS were weak. And Anakin was MUCH weaker in AOTC when Dooku beat him. Anakin 'the chosen one' and Obi Wan in ROTS are alot more powerful and competent, I find it hard to believe DE Sidious would dispatch them like nothing. Remember that DE Luke fought Sidious to a standstill in lightsaber combat by himself, and DE Luke isnt nearly as powerful as he is later on in the EU. So its not like DE Sidious is the godlike opponent some people make him out to be, he cant defeat any opponent at will.

"Palpatine of Naboo," the poetess Hari Seldona once wrote, "is an interesting man. Never before in galactic history has such evil been hidden beneath a mask of such beauty."

Certainly she was not referring to his face; even before his disfigurement under what were best described as murky circumstances, Dr. Augustus Nero Palpatine had not been known for his dashing good looks.

Rather Seldona's mask referred to the idyllic world of his birth, Naboo, and to the undeniable brilliance of his mind. A prodigy even by the standards of a world whose aristocracy routinely used accelerated learning to create generations of preadolescents with university-level educations, the Incorruptible – that was what they called him on Naboo, ironically enough – had completed his first dissertation by the time of his tenth birthday, obtaining the first of many doctorates of philosophy, this one from the University of Aldera's Department of History and Moral Philosophy. In subsequent years he would add doctorates in economics, political science, military history, linguistics, hyperphysics, psychology, and psychohistory.

During the years in which he had served as Supreme Chancellor, it had been a popular joke to refer to the Office of the Supreme Chancellor as 'the Ivory Tower,' as it was Palpatine's academic credentials that were his best known feature. Seldona was neither the first nor the last to describe Palpatine as "a beautiful mind."

What many failed to realize was that for all his brilliance, Palpatine was no ordinary man. He was a man of genius, it was true, but that genius was thrawn. Like a diamond, his intellect sparkled, but it was also cold and hard. Palpatine's brilliance was the product of abomination; he had come into the world with that rarest of deformities – it was a matter not spoken of outside the most intimate circles of the House of Palpatine, in fact something that nobody outside the archducal family had ever even heard of.

Augustus Nero Palpatine was pre-born.

His mother, the Archduchess of Palpatine, had been a woman of society, a woman of great learning and grace. She had also been an addict of spice, that most empyrean of all drugs. There had been complications during the pregnancy, and it was the family's shameful secret that the child Augustus Nero was . . . abnormal, in many respects. Certain abnormalities are to be expected when a fetus already has a fully-developed intellect prior to birth. He had awakened to the universe secure in the knowledge that he was all that mattered; in all the years that followed, he never saw any evidence that caused him to reconsider this conclusion.

But his exceptional intellect was not the only secret that he had hidden. Palpatine's other secret, one altogether more sinister, was that he belonged to the most exclusive, most dangerous cult in existence; though the origins of his affiliation with the Order were lost to time, Palpatine had become one of the Dark Lords of the Sith. As he displayed the brilliance of his mind under the aristocratic and academic guise of Dr. Palpatine, he gave full rein to his power-hungry narcissism under the guise of Darth Sidious. And so this prince of many faces had set out to recreate the galactic order in his own image, to create a New Order in glorification of himself. Here was Seldona's evil lurking beneath masks of beauty; to satisfy his own lusts he had created a brutal war and torn the galaxy asunder, had orchestrated atrocities and war crimes for no end other than his own pursuit of power. His malignant self-love was all the justification he'd needed to destroy the Republic and proclaim himself ruler of an Empire that would stand for ten thousand years.

And so he had ruled the galaxy with an iron fist, his grip growing ever tighter as years and even decades passed. There had been resistance, to be sure, both legal and not, in the halls of the Imperial Senate and on the battlefields of the Rebellion. But he had grown steadily more and more powerful, the point that entire worlds were smashed to smithereens for having dared to oppose him. Finally he had felt a new enemy, one that could destroy him and end his reign of darkness. The Force – that unfathomable mystery – had revealed to him the danger posed by a single soul, a boy named Luke Skwyalker, and he had created an ambush at the Sanctuary Moon of Endor, plotting to ensnare the boy in the dark side of the Force, thereby hijacking his destiny and preserving the eternal rule of night. But the plot had failed; he had been betrayed by the very Apprentice he had meant to betray, and had met his death at long last. Good had triumphed over evil.

At least, that was the theory of it.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
So your argument is DE Luke <<<<< Obi Wan+Anakin now? You do know how those symbols work right? That statement is equivalant to Obi Wan+Anakin >>>>> DE Luke. Well if you believe that, than the argument is concluded it seems. you lose and come up up with nothing...
you.................................











are...............................



















a......................................














failure

it proves DE Sids has SHOWN far superior talents to anything the opposition have

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
you lose and come up up with nothing...
you.................................











are...............................



















a......................................














failure

I was just pointing out your silly error.

There were fancy metaphors in the ROTS novel describing the Yoda+ Sidious duel also. Probably the Anakin+Obi wan duel as well. Its a sign of quality writing, but it doesnt mean much in the end where versus duels are concerned.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
it proves DE Sids has SHOWN far superior talents to anything the opposition have

I agree that Sids could take them each out 1v1 but its doubtful he could take them all out in the inevitable 1v4 contest of swords.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I was just pointing out your silly error.

There were fancy metaphors in the ROTS novel describing the Yoda+ Sidious duel also. Probably the Anakin+Obi wan duel as well. Its a sign of quality writing, but it doesnt mean much in the end where versus duels are concerned. Strong in the fail, you are.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I agree that Sids could take them each out 1v1 but its doubtful he could take them all out in the inevitable 1v4 contest of swords. this isnt just a blade contest...

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
this isnt just a blade contest...

I already explained to you quite clearly why it must come down to a blade contest.

**** arguing with ignorant stubborn ass. ill let Lightsnake take this

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
**** arguing with ignorant stubborn ass. ill let Lightsnake take this

Arguing with a moron hasnt been much fun either.

Ignore him, please. Hopefully Rex'll just ban him again, and for more than one day this time.

Ugh.

KotOR 3, why make this thread?

Spite or maybe he forgot the *No more than three on a team* rule

Weren't you just arguing that Sidious would win?

Y'see, 'Spite' threads are threads in which a character faces unreasonable challenges, and therefore has no chance at winning. If you think Sidious would win, obviously, this is NOT a spite thread- at least to you, it ain't.

Either that, or you're an idiot. Pick one of them.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Weren't you just arguing that Sidious would win?

Y'see, 'Spite' threads are threads in which a character faces unreasonable challenges, and therefore has no chance at winning. If you think Sidious would win, obviously, this is NOT a spite thread- at least to you, it ain't.

Either that, or you're an idiot. Pick one of them. Spite for a actual debate... oh and im not an idiot im as smart as Penis Griffin

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Weren't you just arguing that Sidious would win?

Y'see, 'Spite' threads are threads in which a character faces unreasonable challenges, and therefore has no chance at winning. If you think Sidious would win, obviously, this is NOT a spite thread- at least to you, it ain't.

Either that, or you're an idiot. Pick one of them. Are you sids for win

No, I'm not 'Sids for win'. He can't win this match.

And who the flying f*ck is 'Penis Griffin'?

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Spite for a actual debate... oh and im not an idiot im as smart as Penis Griffin

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/160/familyguyserpentgf2.jpg

...

Where.

Originally posted by Advent
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9571/familyguyserpentnr1.jpg

i have to admit thats pretty cool

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Ugh.

KotOR 3, why make this thread?

Simply put because I knew someone would come on the thread and make an ridiculous argument as to why DE Sidious would win. I guess I am bored at work and needed entertainment.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Simply put because I knew someone would come on the thread and make an ridiculous argument as to why DE Sidious would win. I guess I am bored at work and needed entertainment. I was half expecting lightsnake or one of the remaining Antedilluvians to back me up

well i thynk dat sids shuld win becuz he iz teh strongwest sith eva so this people are no match. he obviouslyl let mace bit him and yodwa got PWNED so he shuld probbly still win.

Happy now?

Actually DE Sidious does win. He mentions to Anakin that his wife is going to die without him and Anakin turns on the Jedi like a crazy man.

Now you have two on three. Mace and Yoda vs DE and Anakin vs Obi Wan.

See, now who wins?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
well i thynk dat sids shuld win becuz he iz teh strongwest sith eva so this people are no match. he obviouslyl let mace bit him and yodwa got PWNED so he shuld probbly still win.

Happy now? lol FANBOI!ONE1!1!!!el3veN!

haha im rite ur just a troll.

ur a troll, ur a troll, im secksy pamde and leia YEiAH!

nuh-uh, pmamde and leya are just n00bs, teh hot3est person EVA iz shaak tiiii.

the mods will ban u, u littl troll.

ive been banned, im hardkour, ur a sad nooby teenaje boreder

Kenobi and Skywalker are nonfactors in an all out fight, Palpatine's mastery of the Force at this point is demonstrably higher by a notable degree than Kenobi's, Skywalker's, Windu's, or Yoda's. In a contest of swords, he is utterly crushed and annihilated however, and I am hesitant to give him the win, even though his powers outclass theirs, simply because, as swordsmen, these four are beasts, and Yoda is an extremely powerful Jedi. Regardless, though, the Jedi will take casualties.

Ok then.. close up the jedi take it but if they fail DE Sidious for the win.

I seen many threads in which DE Sidious does not win against two sith lords such as Bane and Exar Kun in a team or Revan and Bane in a team.

At the same time people would argue and have that Yoda and Mace would be a match and possibly win against a team of Bane and Exar Kun , etc.

So tell me how it is that DE Sidious wins against Yoda and Mace with two powerful Jedi such as Anakin and Obi Wan added on?

It's not that simple nor does it matter in terms of relative proximity; Emperor Palpatine, in the body of a sixty-year-old man who hadn't touched a lightsaber in over a decade, was capable of moving at speeds that outclassed four of the Jedi Order's finest swordsmen (though Windu was able to eventually match this due to the intricate nature of Vaapad). Though he isn't necessarily an "unstoppable force" as a lightsaber combatant, like Anakin Skywalker, he is by far superior to Skywalker in terms of Force potency and mastery. Count Dooku was able to overcome Kenobi quite handily with the Force, and Kenobi managed to stalemate Skywalker in their Force contest on Mustafar. Palpatine is the pinnacle of self preservation (so long as he doesn't need to use himself as bait a la Coruscant or Endor) and would likely remove Kenobi and Skywalker from the fight in an effortless sweep of the Force.

However, he also has to deal with the considerable prowess of Mace Windu and Yoda. Windu was the undisputed master of the deadliest lightsaber form in history and a master of a technique that allowed him to identify weaknesses in persons, crediting him a legitimate win over the Dark Lord prior. He is a relatively powerful Jedi Master in terms of Force mastery in his own right. Meanwhile, Yoda is the most powerful Jedi ever and was capable of stalemating Darth Sidious in Revenge of the Sith.

If the Jedi play this smart, they could win this. But, looking back at it, Palpatine is faster than they are, more powerful than they are, and is fighting solely for himself. The Jedi will have to rely on teamwork and numbers to pull through this. Kenobi and Skywalker will likely be brushed aside with the Force, Windu killed before he can submerge himself within the depths of Vaapad, and then it comes down to Sidious versus Yoda. And Sidious will win that fight.

Ok possible scars for sids (And why does everybody ingnore my arguement then when someone else comes along like gideon they freakin agree with them and refuse to admit that i had won)

It takes mere seconds for Windu to immerse himself in Vaapad, so I do not see him getting killed. And thanks to Sidious' speed, he himself will be faster than ever. Throw in the shatterpoint ability and Yoda and you have one dead Sith.

Originally posted by Faunus
It takes mere seconds for Windu to immerse himself in Vaapad, so I do not see him getting killed.

Don't you? Despite the fact that the four assembled Jedi were in battle stance and had their lightsabers ignited, Windu was unable to prevent the deaths of his allies, including Fisto, "a celebrated swordmaster", and was driven back. At that point, even though they did cross blades and it was two on one, Palpatine was still moving faster and swifter than either Windu or Fisto. Moreover, Palpatine drove Windu back into the primary office.

What do you mean by 'mere seconds'? It's not two or three or four. It's in excess of ten. Probably twenty or thirty. Moreover, Vaapad would only allow Windu to compete with Sidious on a melee level, he is nothing to the Sith Lord in a Force context.



I forgot all about that. Of course, Palpatine's superior speed would allow Windu to move at comparable speed since Vaapad is essentially a combat leech. They might win after all. That is, of course, supposing Palpatine is occupied long enough for Windu to do that.



What is the ability to identify a weakness if one cannot exploit it? Palpatine outclasses Kenobi and Skywalker in the Force on an unimaginable scale. The same with Windu. Yoda would prove to be a challenge, but we both know very well that he is no match for the Sith Lord either.

Originally posted by Faunus
ive been banned, im hardkour, ur a sad nooby teenaje boreder

u think ur hardkour rite? but teh truf iz, my mum alwayz tuld me dat if u get banned, ur not cool. so u suck i win.

Originally posted by Gideon
It's not that simple nor does it matter in terms of relative proximity; Emperor Palpatine, in the body of a sixty-year-old man who hadn't touched a lightsaber in over a decade, was capable of moving at speeds that outclassed four of the Jedi Order's finest swordsmen (though Windu was able to eventually match this due to the intricate nature of Vaapad). Though he isn't necessarily an "unstoppable force" as a lightsaber combatant, like Anakin Skywalker, he is by far superior to Skywalker in terms of Force potency and mastery. Count Dooku was able to overcome Kenobi quite handily with the Force, and Kenobi managed to stalemate Skywalker in their Force contest on Mustafar. Palpatine is the pinnacle of self preservation (so long as he doesn't need to use himself as bait a la Coruscant or Endor) and would likely remove Kenobi and Skywalker from the fight in an effortless sweep of the Force.

However, he also has to deal with the considerable prowess of Mace Windu and Yoda. Windu was the undisputed master of the deadliest lightsaber form in history and a master of a technique that allowed him to identify weaknesses in persons, crediting him a legitimate win over the Dark Lord prior. He is a relatively powerful Jedi Master in terms of Force mastery in his own right. Meanwhile, Yoda is the most powerful Jedi ever and was capable of stalemating Darth Sidious in Revenge of the Sith.

If the Jedi play this smart, they could win this. But, looking back at it, Palpatine is faster than they are, more powerful than they are, and is fighting solely for himself. The Jedi will have to rely on teamwork and numbers to pull through this. Kenobi and Skywalker will likely be brushed aside with the Force, Windu killed before he can submerge himself within the depths of Vaapad, and then it comes down to Sidious versus Yoda. And Sidious will win that fight.

Under Yoda's and Mace leadership the team will mostly likely work together. Unless Sidious uses force storm or force drain I do not see what force technique he is going to use to take out Anakin so quickly.

As shown in his fight with Dooku, Anakin can tap into his force potential at any given moment.

Originally posted by Gideon
Don't you? Despite the fact that the four assembled Jedi were in battle stance and had their lightsabers ignited, Windu was unable to prevent the deaths of his allies, including Fisto, "a celebrated swordmaster", and was driven back. At that point, even though they did cross blades and it was two on one, Palpatine was still moving faster and swifter than either Windu or Fisto. Moreover, Palpatine drove Windu back into the primary office.

What do you mean by 'mere seconds'? It's not two or three or four. It's in excess of ten. Probably twenty or thirty. Moreover, Vaapad would only allow Windu to compete with Sidious on a melee level, he is nothing to the Sith Lord in a Force context.In Shatterpoint, Depa simply closes her eyes, and when she opens them, they're "shadow." It takes a moment of concentration, that's it, but understandably longer when one is facing down the deadliest swordsman the Sith have ever produced.

Well, it's Yoda. He's the only one here who can contend with Sidious under his own power, and while he has no chance of winning he can certainly keep him occupied long enough for Mace to get going.

No match as in he can't win, but he's not outclassed to the point that he's no longer competition. I can definitely see him blitzing Palpatine in a manner similar to what Luke did to Caedus in an attempt to hold him off, and the Sith Lord won't have time to kill Skywalker, Kenobi, and Mace with the Force in the split second it would take Yoda to cover the distance between them. Not that Anakin and Obi-Wan really matter here at all.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
u think ur hardkour rite? but teh truf iz, my mum alwayz tuld me dat if u get banned, ur not cool. so u suck i win. ur mum is eskapes mums biatch, nd eskaip's mum is my biatch, and ur ur mum's biatch, ergo ur mah biatch and i own joo

"Tap into his Force potential?"

Skywalker merely outclassed the Count in swordsmanship; Dooku would still do unholy, unspeakable things to him via Force mastery. You are comparing him to Palpatine, who is smarter, stronger, and faster than Dooku -- and who is also intimately aware of Skywalker's abilities and capabilities. Skywalker is nothing to Palpatine in a Force contest.

Meanwhile, Kenobi and Skywalker, the Jedi's ultimate team, didn't function too well against Dooku. What makes you think the addition of Yoda or Windu will make a difference?

Why is this still being debated? Sidious gets annihilated and has to look for another body. The end.

Originally posted by Faunus
ur mum is eskapes mums biatch, nd eskaip's mum is my biatch, and ur ur mum's biatch, ergo ur mah biatch and i own joo

ur biatch>biatch>biatch logkic failz epiclly becuz ur mum is my biatch ergo i own u

by teh wey, did joo kno dat georje lucsas is a woman?

hahahh im su funnae!

Not annihilated, but he loses.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Why is this still being debated? Sidious gets annihilated and has to look for another body. The end. No. You're wrong and Me and Gideon have proved it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
ur biatch>biatch>biatch logkic failz epiclly becuz ur mum is my biatch ergo i own uActually, sir, my mother is a respectable and scary, scary woman who s no one's biatch. It works ONE way, man. GET YOUR OWN LINES.

So George Lucas is your mother?

KC.

Originally posted by Faunus
In Shatterpoint, Depa simply closes her eyes, and when she opens them, they're "shadow." It takes a moment of concentration, that's it, but understandably longer when one is facing down the deadliest swordsman the Sith have ever produced.

Indeed, seemingly up to half of a minute, Faunus. Palpatine can reduce their number to half in, what? A third? Fourth? Fifth of that time? It would be no effort at all for him to dispose of Kenobi and Skywalker, and I would argue that it would be easier for him to remove them than it would for Yoda to "blitz" him and occupy his attention.



He has no chance of winning, correct. Palpatine's mastery of the Force has increased exponentially. His Force lightning, pre-DE, was capable of reducing Sith acolytes to ash with one gout, destroying a batallion of stormtroopers, not to mention overpowering a Jedi general who was not only armed with a lightsaber, but capable of repelling Force lightning while laughing. How do you see that going? Palpatine is, at the very, very least, as fast as Yoda is and has increased dramatically in power. Should, for example, their lightning war occur again? Yoda's toast.



He is competition only though experience, speed, technique, and Force powers. But what if Palpatine should attack Yoda with Force lightning?

Originally posted by Gideon
"Tap into his Force potential?"

Skywalker merely outclassed the Count in swordsmanship; Dooku would still do unholy, unspeakable things to him via Force mastery. You are comparing him to Palpatine, who is smarter, stronger, and faster than Dooku -- and who is also intimately aware of Skywalker's abilities and capabilities. Skywalker is nothing to Palpatine in a Force contest.

Meanwhile, Kenobi and Skywalker, the Jedi's ultimate team, didn't function too well against Dooku. What makes you think the addition of Yoda or Windu will make a difference?

That is why I said under Yoda's and Mace leadership they would be of help. As for Anakin outclassing Dooku in swordsmanship, how did he do that? It seem that Anakin mere brute force is what took Dooku out. When I say tap in force potential, I mean Anakin became stronger in the fight. If you want to attribute it to the dark side so be it. It is the samething Luke did to Vader.

Yes Vader could have schooled Luke in the force but Luke onslaught never gave him the chance. Point is Anakin and Obi Wan should be enough of an distraction to help Yoda and Mace engage Sidious in a saber battle.

I have to go so I may not respond quickly.

Originally posted by Faunus
Actually, sir, my mother is a respectable and scary, scary woman who s no one's biatch. It works ONE way, man. GET YOUR OWN LINES.

YOU LIE!

Originally posted by Faunus
So George Lucas is your mother?

Nope. He is your aunt.

Originally posted by Faunus
KC.

Lul wut?

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
No. You're wrong and Me and Gideon have proved it.

As Gideon's master, he is only right when I make it so.











I do not.

see page 2

How? Windu and Yoda have not fought on the frontlines beside Skywalker and Kenobi. What in the whole of canon would lead you to believe that they would function as an efficient team, when Skywalker and Kenobi, the Order's greatest duo and tagteam, were unable to function as an efficient team against Dooku?



The Clone Wars depicts Skywalker eventually overcoming and defeating the Count, with Dooku sitting on his ass and at his mercy. Dooku himself muses in Labyrinth of Evil that Skywalker was a "powerful" adversary on Geonosis. Arguably, Skywalker was always a threat in terms of lightsaber combat, but was far behind the Count in terms of three categories: skill, experience, and mastery of the Force. In Revenge of the Sith, he is already forcing Dooku back; the Count cannot compete with Skywalker's vast Force reserves and physical strength. When he decides to kill Dooku, he simply becomes an engine of destruction that none of the Count's skills can handle.



Vader was conflicted and restrained the entire time.



Nothing indicates that that would happen here.

Originally posted by Gideon
Indeed, seemingly up to half of a minute, Faunus. Palpatine can reduce their number to half in, what? A third? Fourth? Fifth of that time? It would be no effort at all for him to dispose of Kenobi and Skywalker, and I would argue that it would be easier for him to remove them than it would for Yoda to "blitz" him and occupy his attention.How exactly is he going to do this to Kenobi and Skywalker? Lightning? Telekinesis?

That's pushing it. He's learned more, he's increased the potency of his lightning, and gained access to Force storms. He would be challenged by his younger (RotS) self in a duel, he'd be pushed hard by his RotJ self in a Force battle. He's not "exponentially" greater in his Force capabilities.

Not arguing this, of course.

That's assuming Palpatine is going to knock the lightsaber out of Yoda's hand or disintegrate it - which would require his attention - and then reduce him to ashes before Mace cuts him in half. It's not as simple as "He does A to Skywalker/Kenobi, B to Mace, C to Yoda."

Yoda has a lightsaber, yes? Yoda has Mace Windu, who through Vaapad can amplify his speed to match that of Sidious himself. Yoda may have Anakin and Obi-Wan as fodder provided Palpatine doesn't do away with them immediately.

I'm not arguing that Yoda could challenge DE Sidious, who is younger, stronger, and more versed in the dark side than he ever was, and hope to win. Nor am I arguing that he could stand up to the full power of the Sith Lord's lightning for more than a few seconds. But in no capacity could Palpatine simply walk all over Yoda. I mean, the Jedi can run like no other, so dodging isn't out of the question. He has a lightsaber (which of course, like the rest of him, is prone to disintegration), and in this case he has three notable allies, one of whom can - provided he has a moment undisturbed - move as fast as Sidious himself.

Originally posted by Faunus
How exactly is he going to do this to Kenobi and Skywalker? Lightning? Telekinesis?

Is this a legitimate question or skepticism? Count Dooku was driven back by Kenobi and Skywalker and still had the time to drop down and hurl Kenobi across the room; he later (despite the novel's narrative describing Dooku on the verge of "shut down" separated the two and KO'd Kenobi with minimal difficulty. Palpatine is far beyond the Count in terms of Force potency and mastery; they're not even close to being in the same league. If Dooku, despite being ignorant of Skywalker's upper tier abilities, could perform such a feat with telekinesis, it stands to reason that Palpatine could do it as well and with a fraction of the difficulty.



One of them can destroy an entire fleet of state-of-the-art ships, each equipped with high end energy shields capable of taking gigatons of energy, transmogrifying an individual across time/space, and ripping the surfaces off worlds. The other, whose feats are incredible as well, cannot do that.



You speak as though Palpatine will have to devote enough attention to Yoda as he would in a political debate in the Rotunda. He wouldn't. Palpatine is easily capable of taking Kenobi and Skywalker out of the fight with laughable ease. Yoda is not enough to keep Palpatine from doing the same with the Force to Windu.



He, intimately familiar with the capabilities of Anakin Skywalker, is certainly capable and willing to do away with them immediately. Nothing Yoda or Windu can do will change that.



Nonsense. Pre-DE Palpatine was capable of unleashing a veritable storm of Force lightning that encompassed an entire room. Palpatine doesn't miss with Force lightning.

Originally posted by Gideon
Is this a legitimate question or skepticism? Count Dooku was driven back by Kenobi and Skywalker and still had the time to drop down and hurl Kenobi across the room; he later (despite the novel's narrative describing Dooku on the verge of "shut down" separated the two and KO'd Kenobi with minimal difficulty. Palpatine is far beyond the Count in terms of Force potency and mastery; they're not even close to being in the same league. If Dooku, despite being ignorant of Skywalker's upper tier abilities, could perform such a feat with telekinesis, it stands to reason that Palpatine could do it as well and with a fraction of the difficulty.It wasn't skepticism, I'd just forgotten about the Dooku incident.

...

I thought it wasn't through his own power, but by doing something... else. Doesn't the NEC or one of those books detail it?

So are you saying that Palpatine is going to Anakin, Kenobi, and Mace out with a wave of his hand, then just obliterate Yoda?

I'm not saying Yoda or Mace will, I was questioning just how Sidious would prioritize.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Faunus
It wasn't skepticism, I'd just forgotten about the Dooku incident.

Very good.



Is this in response to my statement that Palpatine is 'far' superior to Dooku in the Force? It is true, after all.



My friend, you've been reading too much into Nebaris's theories. It's a Force technique that enables Palpatine to shatter space/time. It's not a ritual that requires meditation or an eye of newt or anything. Not that it's applicable here, either, unless he wanted to kill himself.



That's exactly what I'm telling you. As combatants, they are a threat to him, certainly. Don't allow me to come off that way. As Force users, however, they aren't. Only Yoda.



It would seem fairly common sense to casually eliminate the weakest of the bunch before they could capitalize on a position to become a threat to him, does it not? The man's a genius, after all. None of his enemies are.

Originally posted by Gideon
How? Windu and Yoda have not fought on the frontlines beside Skywalker and Kenobi. What in the whole of canon would lead you to believe that they would function as an efficient team, when Skywalker and Kenobi, the Order's greatest duo and tagteam, were unable to function as an efficient team against Dooku?

Gideon you act as if they never knew each other and were just put in a situtation. Just like soliders within the same army they would coordinate between themselves.

Dooku was once Yoda student and those same teachings filiter down to his student down to Anakin. Jedi are taught how to fight together. You can say Anakin under Obi Wan's leadership was not a good team.


Originally posted by Gideon
The Clone Wars depicts Skywalker eventually overcoming and defeating the Count, with Dooku sitting on his ass and at his mercy. Dooku himself muses in Labyrinth of Evil that Skywalker was a "powerful" adversary on Geonosis. Arguably, Skywalker was always a threat in terms of lightsaber combat, but was far behind the Count in terms of three categories: skill, experience, and mastery of the Force. In Revenge of the Sith, he is already forcing Dooku back; the Count cannot compete with Skywalker's vast Force reserves and physical strength. When he decides to kill Dooku, he simply becomes an engine of destruction that none of the Count's skills can handle.]?

Our comments are the same here. I agree with this statement.


Originally posted by Gideon
Vader was conflicted and restrained the entire time. .

Vader stated "I see you have constructed your own lightsaber". Your skills are completed".

Vader recognize that Luke had reach a certian level. Vader expected Luke to defeat him. The sitituation is similar to the Anakin and Dooku fight. Both Vader and Dooku were the superior force users but they never got a chance to engage there opponent in a force duel and was overcome in saber combat. Like Anakin, Luke tap into his force reserves and defeated Vader.

You do realize, I hope, that none of what you said is relevant or pertinent to this thread, don't you?

Originally posted by Gideon
You do realize, I hope, that none of what you said is relevant or pertinent to this thread, don't you? At least when I dick around I'm on subject.


BTW let this die honestly

Originally posted by Gideon
You do realize, I hope, that none of what you said is relevant or pertinent to this thread, don't you?

Then why did you respond? Did you forget why we were talking about Anakin and Luke.

Luke and Vader was used as an example to show what Anakin did in his fight against Dooku which you were trying to say that it was not the same.

Point was that Anakin could boost his power also in the fight with DE Sidious. Thus he wouldn't be such an easy defeat with Yoda and Mace as a distraction for DE Sidious and would provide to be a helpful hand.

See I remember, do you remember why you are on this thread?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Then why did you respond? Did you forget why we were talking about Anakin and Luke.

Luke and Vader was used as an example to show what Anakin did in his fight against Dooku which you were trying to say that it was not the same.

Point was that Anakin could boost his power also in the fight with DE Sidious. Thus he wouldn't be such an easy defeat with Yoda and Mace as a distraction for DE Sidious and would provide to be a helpful hand.

See I remember, do you remember why you are on this thread?

uh nothin Anakin or OBIGYN KENOBI ever showed proved they could survive long enough to run away from DE sids

Originally posted by Kotor3
Then why did you respond? Did you forget why we were talking about Anakin and Luke.

No, we are not talking about "Anakin & Luke", we are talking about Anakin & Kenobi and how they are relevant in this duel. They aren't, and your incessant ramblings that "LOLZ JEDI ARE LEARNED HOW TO FIGHT 2GETHER!" doesn't make it so.



If your goal is to reach new levels of incompetence, I've gotta tell you, you're fast succeeding.

LUKE AND VADER ARE IRRELEVANT.

Your point was something along the lines of "LOLZ YODA AND MACE WILL SOMEHOW JOIN WITH ANI AND OBI AND MAKE AN INCREDIBLE COHESIVE TEAM!"

My point was "LOL YOU'RE A RETARD. THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO FIGHT ALONG SIDE ONE ANOTHER *proceeds to cite example of how the Jedi's greatest duo was unable to perform cohesively against Dooku*"

Your rebuttal was "LOLZ JEDI ALWAYS FIGHT WELL TOGETHER NAAA!"



Ah, yes, I did forget something. In addition to the verbal excrement you provided above, your other point was:

"LOLZ ANAKIN WILL AUTOMATICALLY HAVE A RANDOM BOOST IN TEH FORCE AND HELP OWN SIDZ!"

...Except you haven't proven how or when that will happen or how that somehow makes Anakin immune to Sidious's vastly superior Force energies.



Yeah, look, I'll only be nice about this once: you have made absolutely zero points of relevance. You haven't quantified or substantiated any of your asinine claims. You have in effect only succeeded in wasting space, much like DarkSerpent. You are no better than he is. Don't mock me, you're wasting time. Especially when I point out how big of an ass you are. When you want to be the e-bad boy or whatever on campass, at least make sure you're taken seriously.

You're not. Your points are shit. Accept it and move on with what little life you have on the side.


EDIT: I'll be damned. DarkSerpent actually made a logical and cogent point. Guess he's climbed over you in the debating ladder.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, we are not talking about "Anakin & Luke", we are talking about Anakin & Kenobi and how they are relevant in this duel. They aren't, and your incessant ramblings that "LOLZ JEDI ARE LEARNED HOW TO FIGHT 2GETHER!" doesn't make it so.



If your goal is to reach new levels of incompetence, I've gotta tell you, you're fast succeeding.

LUKE AND VADER ARE IRRELEVANT.

Your point was something along the lines of "LOLZ YODA AND MACE WILL SOMEHOW JOIN WITH ANI AND OBI AND MAKE AN INCREDIBLE COHESIVE TEAM!"

My point was "LOL YOU'RE A RETARD. THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO FIGHT ALONG SIDE ONE ANOTHER *proceeds to cite example of how the Jedi's greatest duo was unable to perform cohesively against Dooku*"

Your rebuttal was "LOLZ JEDI ALWAYS FIGHT WELL TOGETHER NAAA!"



Ah, yes, I did forget something. In addition to the verbal excrement you provided above, your other point was:

"LOLZ ANAKIN WILL AUTOMATICALLY HAVE A RANDOM BOOST IN TEH FORCE AND HELP OWN SIDZ!"

...Except you haven't proven how or when that will happen or how that somehow makes Anakin immune to Sidious's vastly superior Force energies.



Yeah, look, I'll only be nice about this once: you have made absolutely zero points of relevance. You haven't quantified or substantiated any of your asinine claims. You have in effect only succeeded in wasting space, much like DarkSerpent. You are no better than he is. Don't mock me, you're wasting time. Especially when I point out how big of an ass you are. When you want to be the e-bad boy or whatever on campass, at least make sure you're taken seriously.

You're not. Your points are shit. Accept it and move on with what little life you have on the side. Plz dont waste time on him... Atleast im fun pick on.

Don't worry. Though I believe most of your points lack any humor or relevance and you should conform or be banned, you have already identified yourself as a greater logician than this hack.

Originally posted by Gideon

EDIT: I'll be damned. DarkSerpent actually made a logical and cogent point. Guess he's climbed over you in the debating ladder. Look its not that I am a idiot, its just that I love screwing around.However, occasionally with such a shituation as that I'll be serious, if only for a moment.

Dudes, you know who could, like, totally solo DE Sids? If Exar visited Anakin and gave him his amulet, ROTS Pre-suit Vader.


Omgwhatawetdream.

Yeah, well in all my Vulcan logic if its a force fight, then Palpatine takes it with serious difficulty(the sheer numbers,if two are taken out early then he still gonna feel some wear and tear but nowhere near as much)

Close-up sabers, is a different story(if he can take out Mace and somebody else early its a definite) while Anakin and Ob1 will have a funeral for damn sure, I simply don't know if Palpatine is going to survive this either..(I admit my ignorance, for I have wisdom Unlike Kotar Thweey)

Obviously. I've said it before: if it were a lightsaber duel, they'd take it with extraordinarily stupid ease.

nu-uh...
he'd kill one of them

so that splitardedly easy

Stop breathing.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Stop breathing. Never...

ROFL why is this still going on. Stop being a fanboy Gideon. Palps doesnt magically wave his hand and annihilate people. Force storm isnt applicable here, so that leaves us with Palpys force lightning as his primary force attack. I already explained to Darkserpent how this will not be effective against 4 opponents because he will have to split his power, and Yoda or Mace will inevitably break out of his half assed lightning attack and then force it into a saber battle. 1v4 with two opponents being rather close to Sids in power, I think you will agree that the Jedi win out. And your underrating Anakin and Obi Wan alot. They are far from weak, in fact it could stand to reason that Anakin is close to DE Luke in power. Think about it, Anakin has as much potential as Luke does if not more, and has trained alot longer. I'll grant that DE Luke has shown more impressive feats.

But either way, Sids dies in this battle, the odds are stacked against him.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
ROFL why is this still going on. Stop being a fanboy Gideon. Palps doesnt magically wave his hand and annihilate people. Force storm isnt applicable here, so that leaves us with Palpys force lightning as his primary force attack. I already explained to Darkserpent how this will not be effective against 4 opponents because he will have to split his power, and Yoda or Mace will inevitably break out of his half assed lightning attack and then force it into a saber battle. 1v4 with two opponents being rather close to Sids in power, I think you will agree that the Jedi win out. And your underrating Anakin and Obi Wan alot. They are far from weak, in fact it could stand to reason that Anakin is close to DE Luke in power. Think about it, Anakin has as much potential as Luke does if not more, and has trained alot longer. I'll grant that DE Luke has shown more impressive feats.

But either way, Sids dies in this battle, the odds are stacked against him. Dude shut the hell up, if its any one being a fanboy here its you considering that your extremely biased against sidious and a kotor raging hormone fanboy.

Gideon is FAR from being a fanboy seeing that he is one of, if not the best debater(in my opinion) in the SWV as well as one of the most respected and acknowledged.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Dude shut the hell up, if its any one being a fanboy here its you considering that your extremely biased against sidious and a kotor raging hormone fanboy.

Gideon is FAR from being a fanboy seeing that he is one of, if not the best debater(in my opinion) in the SWV as well as one of the most respected and acknowledged.

Owned.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Dude shut the hell up, if its any one being a fanboy here its you considering that your extremely biased against sidious and a kotor raging hormone fanboy.

Gideon is FAR from being a fanboy seeing that he is one of, if not the best debater(in my opinion) in the SWV as well as one of the most respected and acknowledged.

Why does he need to shut up? GV brought up good arguments that have not been addressed. GV point is that Sidious would not be able to execute certain force attacks. Does this would lead to a saber fight.

If you cannot bring up a valid argument then don't reply. No one needs to here about how good Gideon is at throwing insults. He definitely has not shown good debating skills in this thread.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
so that splitardedly easyGet off my word, *****.

*Force-chokes*

And Vengeance, Gideon's right. If Sidious manages to kill Mace with the Force, he wins. The only one who's a remote threat to him in that field is Yoda, and even he has no shot at a win alone. Anakin and Obi-Wan are too slow and lack the Force capabilities to do anything at all to the Sith Lord. So the only one here who can take him down is Mace, and that's if he manages to submerge himself in Vaapad quickly and turn Sidious' speed into his own. From there, victory for the Jedi is a likelihood. But if Mace dies, they all die, and if Yoda dies, they all probably die.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Why does he need to shut up? GV brought up good arguments that have not been addressed. GV point is that Sidious would not be able to execute certain force attacks. Does this would lead to a saber fight.
Good arguments? Good arguments and bullshit claims such as sidious not becoming anymore powerful in DE when it is stated in various sources that he did? How about crap like "Omg S!d!oUs c@n't us3 f@rce st0rM B3Cuz ! s@y s0!!!!!1!111!!oneone!!11one"

My god are you that delusional?


GV is FAR from even being close to a half decent debater(IMO), i don't consider kotor fanboys with raging hormones good debaters, especially those who jerk off everytime they hear "revan" or "nihilus"
Originally posted by Kotor3

If you cannot bring up a valid argument then don't reply. No one needs to here about how good Gideon is at throwing insults. He definitely has not shown good debating skills in this thread. The thing is i CAN bring up solid and valid arguments but the only problem is i simply don't give a shit about debating in this forum seeing that i have far better things to do(preparing for a bodybuilding contest and school).

And please don't tell me crap like "Z0mG g!d3oN i$ n0 tExP0s!nG h!s d!ck t0 sh0W h!s Ub@h d3b@t!ng skiLs In t!s tHr3@d" when you are simply lying to yourself about it.
Face it, hes far better than you.

Oh and incase you didn't notice(its funny because you claimed that you had been reading these forums even before you registered) is that the good debaters in this forum tend to insult people when they argue(Gideon, Lightsnake, Advent, Faunus, darth sexy), even i tend to insult sometimes but there are times it becomes necessary to do so.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Good arguments? Good arguments and bullshit claims such as sidious not becoming anymore powerful in DE when it is stated in various sources that he did? How about crap like "Omg S!d!oUs c@n't us3 f@rce st0rM B3Cuz ! s@y s0!!!!!1!111!!oneone!!11one"

My god are you that delusional?

You have not proven they are not. So I disagree. I feel they are good arguments. No thanks for your opinion though.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger

GV is FAR from even being close to a half decent debater(IMO), i don't consider kotor fanboys with raging hormones good debaters, especially those who jerk off everytime they hear "revan" or "nihilus"
The thing is i CAN bring up solid and valid arguments but the only problem is i simply don't give a shit about debating in this forum seeing that i have far better things to do(preparing for a bodybuilding contest and school).

I wasn't expecting any valid arguments on this thread. I am surprise it went this far.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger

And please don't tell me crap like "Z0mG g!d3oN i$ n0 tExP0s!nG h!s d!ck t0 sh0W h!s Ub@h d3b@t!ng skiLs In t!s tHr3@d" when you are simply lying to yourself about it.
Face it, hes far better than you.

Well we do know one thing, you love Gideon!

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger

Oh and incase you didn't notice(its funny because you claimed that you had been reading these forums even before you registered) is that the good debaters in this forum tend to insult people when they argue(Gideon, Lightsnake, Advent, Faunus, darth sexy), even i tend to insult sometimes but there are times it becomes necessary to do so.

Yes I have and there are people who I feel are jackasses but I will not name them. Just because I have seen insults does not mean I will let them go by especially when there is no reason for it.

This thread is not a serious one. Gideon threw out insults why because his pride was hurt? Don't try to make an excuse for him, we know you love him.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
ROFL why is this still going on. Stop being a fanboy Gideon. Palps doesnt magically wave his hand and annihilate people.Uh, Dooku does it. Bane does it. The most powerful Sith Lord in history can do it, too.

Lightning that can vaporize metal hangings, lightsabers, and Dark side acolytes.

What do you mean, "split his power"? Is this Dragonball Z?

No, Sidious could tear up Anakin and Obi-Wan fairly easily here. But that's where he stops, because with Yoda on top of him he won't be able to kill Windu fast enough to prevent the Vaapad effect.

Anakin would defeat Luke in a duel, but Luke would dominate him in a contest of the Force. Luke is, by this point, more powerful than Anakin ever became.

Since your so fond of being obnoxious, it be great to hand your ass to you.
Originally posted by Kotor3
You have not proven they are not. So I disagree. I feel they are good arguments. No thanks for your opinion though.
I don't need to "prove" that they are not "good" arguments, anybody with half a brain can tell that his arguments are riddled with blatant bullshit.

Faunus(one of the great ones) just had the liberty to happily smash that excuse for an argument to pieces.



You sir remind me of the geth from mass effect, the more of them gathered, the more intelligent they get, but when we talk about kotor fanboys(such as yourself), the more of them you mix together , the less intelligent they become.

Apparently you seem to sexually fellate GV ALOT.


http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5563/funny1cp7.gif






Originally posted by Kotor3

I wasn't expecting any valid arguments on this thread. I am surprise it went this far.
Then get the f*ck off.

Originally posted by Kotor3

Well we do know one thing, you love Gideon!
Bad attempt at a comeback, and as a catholic we DO believe in loving others, not in that gay sense such as you who has extremely disturbing fantasies with kotor characters.

Originally posted by Kotor3

Yes I have and there are people who I feel are jackasses but I will not name them. Just because I have seen insults does not mean I will let them go by especially when there is no reason for it. Please what could you possibly do to them? Like anybody actually gives half a shit for your motives.
Originally posted by Kotor3

This thread is not a serious one. Gideon threw out insults why because his pride was hurt? Don't try to make an excuse for him, we know you love him. Pride? Gideon? LOL he insults when it is necessary, i don't see him as a "proud biatch" unlike you who thinks so highly of himself.

I'm not making an excuse for him "friend", had you actually spent a little more time in SWV you would realise that everybody insults one another during frustrating and heated debates, just because they are good debaters does not mean they are angels, its all human nature pal.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Since your so fond of being obnoxious, it be great to hand your ass to you.
I don't need to "prove" that they are not "good" arguments, anybody with half a brain can tell that his arguments are riddled with blatant bullshit.



You sir remind me of the geth from mass effect, the more of them gathered, the more intelligent they get, but when we talk about kotor fanboys, the more of them you mix together(such as yourself) , the less intelligent they become.

Apparently you seem to sexually fellate GV ALOT.


http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5563/funny1cp7.gif






Then get the f*ck off.

Bad attempt at a comeback, and as a catholic we DO believe in loving others, not in that gay sense such as you who has extremely disturbing fantasies with kotor characters.

Please what could you possibly do to them? Like anybody actually gives half a shit for your motives.
Pride? Gideon? LOL he insults when it is necessary, i don't see him as a "proud biatch" unlike you who thinks so highly of himself.

I'm not making an excuse for him "friend", had you actually spent a little more time in SWV you would realise that everybody insults one another during frustrating and heated debates, just because they are good debaters does not mean they are angels, its all human nature pal.

You really handed my ass to me with those statements. Cool down Schwarzenegger, nobody is calling you gay. Cursing now are we? Even though this is quite entertaining to me I will leave you alone since you are so sensitive.

There doesn't even seem a remote possibility that sidious could win. Has this seriously been debated for 5 pages? You have what were probably the TOP FOUR duelists in the order against one sith lord. This lord is the extremely powerful sidious, true, BUT was defeated by a DE Luke and Leia. Now: if this thread were Luke and Leia from DE against the 4, there would be no chance of them winning. it would be laughable at best. Luke was a weaker version of himself in DE than we know of him now, this was before JA was it not?

all that besides, think of the technical aspect of this fight. We say that the B team was owned by Sidious in ROTS because they didn't have the speed to even see or comprehend what was happening compared to Sidoius. Obviously this was not the case for Mace or Yoda, and our own eyes tell us that Obi-wan and Anakin fought at an even greater speed in ROTS, so you can't assume they would be slaughtered like the B team was.

If sidious stood back and attacked them with the force, his most powerful attack that would work in close combat would be lightning, and it ABSOLUTELY is the most powerful attack we know of him using in combat, not to mention that Sith after Sith after sith has used it in combat, not some crazy ritual, so chances are its the most effective attack, and therefore the one sidious will use.
Each of these jedi can at the very least catch lightning on his saber. Yoda can catch it. (perhaps not against DE sidious however, but he could still use the classic lightsaber defense)
If sidious has DOUBLED in power between ROTS and DE, which is unlikely considering the scant amount of time to pass compared to the rest of his training, then he is still going to be required to do the following: split lightning between FOUR opponents at once. This means one of them will not recieve more than 1/2 of his attack from ROTS. Mace or Yoda could hold off such an attack with relative ease, and i have a hard time believing the other two would be overwhelmed, unless you are putting mace and yoda on a level TWICE as powerful as anakin and obi-wan. Once that attack fails, its on to a saber duel, and then Sidious dies. If he concentrates his entire attack on one opponent at once, he would probably succeed in killing about ONE of his opponents before someone else cut him down. He can't launch a full out lightning storm on someone and defend himself with a lightsaber at the same time.
I just don't understand how sidious could be thought to have a chance in this, nothing against sidious, but he is facing probably 4 of the top 10 duelist in history. Sidous would HAVE to use an attack other than lightning, if anyone knows of something else that sidious knows to destroy the jedi with the force other than lightning, present that knowledge, and i'll rethink my assessment, but you split 2x his ROTS voltage by four, and i just don't think its possible.

Originally posted by truejedi
There doesn't even seem a remote possibility that sidious could win. Has this seriously been debated for 5 pages? You have what were probably the TOP FOUR duelists in the order against one sith lord. This lord is the extremely powerful sidious, true, BUT was defeated by a DE Luke and Leia. Now: if this thread were Luke and Leia from DE against the 4, there would be no chance of them winning. it would be laughable at best. Luke was a weaker version of himself in DE than we know of him now, this was before JA was it not?

all that besides, think of the technical aspect of this fight. We say that the B team was owned by Sidious in ROTS because they didn't have the speed to even see or comprehend what was happening compared to Sidoius. Obviously this was not the case for Mace or Yoda, and our own eyes tell us that Obi-wan and Anakin fought at an even greater speed in ROTS, so you can't assume they would be slaughtered like the B team was.

If sidious stood back and attacked them with the force, his most powerful attack that would work in close combat would be lightning, and it ABSOLUTELY is the most powerful attack we know of him using in combat, not to mention that Sith after Sith after sith has used it in combat, not some crazy ritual, so chances are its the most effective attack, and therefore the one sidious will use.
Each of these jedi can at the very least catch lightning on his saber. Yoda can catch it. (perhaps not against DE sidious however, but he could still use the classic lightsaber defense)
If sidious has DOUBLED in power between ROTS and DE, which is unlikely considering the scant amount of time to pass compared to the rest of his training, then he is still going to be required to do the following: split lightning between FOUR opponents at once. This means one of them will not recieve more than 1/2 of his attack from ROTS. Mace or Yoda could hold off such an attack with relative ease, and i have a hard time believing the other two would be overwhelmed, unless you are putting mace and yoda on a level TWICE as powerful as anakin and obi-wan. Once that attack fails, its on to a saber duel, and then Sidious dies. If he concentrates his entire attack on one opponent at once, he would probably succeed in killing about ONE of his opponents before someone else cut him down. He can't launch a full out lightning storm on someone and defend himself with a lightsaber at the same time.
I just don't understand how sidious could be thought to have a chance in this, nothing against sidious, but he is facing probably 4 of the top 10 duelist in history. Sidous would HAVE to use an attack other than lightning, if anyone knows of something else that sidious knows to destroy the jedi with the force other than lightning, present that knowledge, and i'll rethink my assessment, but you split 2x his ROTS voltage by four, and i just don't think its possible.

I believe Gideon is favored to debate this one. The points you and GV made concerning DE Sidious available force attacks he could use in this fight is the main reason he would lose.

I guess we will wait and see if Gideon or someone else can state what force attacks Sidious could use to turn this fight in his favor.

@'Schwarzenegger' I have no time to respond to dumbasses like you. You didnt provide any arguments at all, all you did was try to protect Gideon like hes your boyfriend or something. Grow up, Gideon can handle himself.

@Faunus



So they do infact wave there hand and annihilate people then? Sources would be nice, or atleast identify the attack you are talking about.



Umm show me where DE Sids can vaporize lightsabers or even people and then we will talk.



Lightning is a form of energy. Energy is more potent when its concentrated. Physics 101.



No, he wouldnt. Theres nothing to suggest Anakin and Obi wan would be teared apart here before Yoda and Mace can even get in range. And by that time Sids will be too occupied with protecting himself, if he went all out against Anakin or Obi Wan by that time he would lose his head to Yoda or Mace.



Ill agree that Luke is stronger, but not by as much as you think. And if DE Luke can give DE Sids a run for his money, do you really think its reasonable that DE Sids would annihilate Anakin in .5 seconds?

And for the record Faunus I respect you, and think your a pretty cool guy. But I think your just doing this to help Gideon out, and hes quite capable of arguing this himself. I called him a fanboy because thats what he is, hes supported Sidious ever since Ive known him. Calling somone a fanboy isnt a bad insult though, unlike some of the shit thats been going down in this thread.

He disintegrates Leia's lightsaber in Dark Empire with what looks like a wave of his hand. But perhaps it was Force Lightning and I missed it. That should be up for some debate though, considering the lightsaber she was using was literally 10,000 years old, and was created from the less powerful organic crystals they used back then, instead of the synthetic crystals that the Jedi create themselves in later times (which are far more powerful).

For the record, I agree with your arguments in this particular thread, GV.

Also in the resurrection comic (Pre ANH) btw Sidious's lightning chars 3 dark acolytes into skeletons. So I don't see how DE Sidious couldn't do the same .

Oh, where to begin? We'll deal with kotor3 first.



I would use the same "I wasn't being serious" excuse as well if I didn't create a thread and then offer serious(ly stupid) rebuttals and watched them get shredded. Sadly, I've never found myself in such a predicament, though I'm fairly certain I could manage it with greater class than you can muster.



I have already done so. Your inappropriate sarcasm was equally unnecessary. It's evident that you're not held in high regard, so let's not pretend that your opinion actually means something in the grand scheme of things. This is the status quo. Save your personal outrage with me until such a time when you can actually summon the ability to debate on a level exceeding that of your local Special Ed. class, which I would highly recommend that you join.



Your apparent inability to read makes me question why I should take the time to answer you again and again. This will be for the final time. Despite the fact that he was pushed on the defensive, desperate, and in the throes of what would be a "Force shut down", Count Dooku managed to disable Obi-Wan with mere telekinesis not once but twice, while simultaneously keeping Skywalker at bay. Moreover, Skywalker later demonstrates Force mastery that is only equal to Kenobi's during their duel on Mustafar. Here, we are dealing with an individual whose potency and mastery of the Force is lightyears ahead of Count Dooku's. It is logical that Darth Sidious, at this point, would be easily capable of manhandling Kenobi and Skywalker simultaneously with sheer telekinesis, since he is aware of their abilities intimately and is a strong proponent of self preservation.



Do you typically laugh when being beaten in an argument? That's actually quite admirable. The rest of us laugh when we find genuine humor in situations, such as the sheer hilarity of your rebuttals and apparent illiteracy.



Someone has spent too much time playing KotOR and actually hasn't watched the movies. For the record, the movies are vastly more important or better than that game. Here is one clear statement from Mace Windu in Attack of the Clones: "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

Moreover, I've explained to you once that a powerful, seasoned duo (the Jedi Order's greatest team) was unable to fight efficiently against Dooku. What makes you think that the presence of Windu or Yoda would make a difference, since they have never worked with Skywalker or Kenobi in combat?

In essence, your syllogism is absolutely retarded. Since you cannot summon the courtesy of actually forming a logical argument, perhaps you would spend the rest of your overabundant time making up better excuses for your grotesque failures?

Thanks,
Gideon.

On to Great Vengeance.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@'Schwarzenegger' I have no time to respond to dumbasses like you. You didnt provide any arguments at all, all you did was try to protect Gideon like hes your boyfriend or something. Grow up, Gideon can handle himself.Just ignore the rants, man.

Force-crush, Morichro/Malacia (although these take longer), the grip/choke/throw that Dooku did to Kenobi, Force-sever, or simply lock them into stasis. Master Farfalla managed to do this to Bane for a split second, so Sidious would certainly be able to do it to people not even remotely close to him in Force mastery.

See Enyalus' post.

Sidious, with one hand, disintegrated a lightsaber. If he does this to Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Mace, they're rendered useless.

That's my point. I'm not giving Sidious a real chance to win, here not at all. I don't see him overwhelming Anakin and Obi-Wan before Yoda gets in his face and/or Mace dips into Vaapad and basically leeches whatever speed he tries to use.

Luke, when by himself, got owned in two moves by Sidious. Anakin would last a little longer in a duel for sure, but his mastery of the Force pales in comparison to that of the older Luke, who can blow up droids with a gesture in a manner similar to the ancient Jedi Masters, shield himself against AT-AT laser blasts, and literally force said machine into the ground.

Wurd.

I'm sure he is. And trust me, there's no reason for me to come to his defense. But if I see faulty arguments and I'm interested enough, I respond to them.

I'm going to deny bias, but calling someone a fanboy's a copout.

Originally posted by Gideon

I have already done so. Your inappropriate sarcasm was equally unnecessary. It's evident that you're not held in high regard, so let's not pretend that your opinion actually means something in the grand scheme of things. This is the status quo. Save your personal outrage with me until such a time when you can actually summon the ability to debate on a level exceeding that of your local Special Ed. class, which I would highly recommend that you join.


Lol this was funny as hell so considered it profiled.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
ROFL why is this still going on. Stop being a fanboy Gideon.

You will pardon me if I don't take demands of an individual who, judging by the extent of his claims (LOLZ REVAN > YODA and REVAN > SIDIOUS; your ignorance of the items regarding Dark Empire), apparently has no understanding of canon or of continuity. Given your incredible ignorance, rather than attack me and accuse me of fanboyism, you would do better to ask questions rather than assume I'm wrong.



Count Dooku did it to these very same individuals, despite being pushed on the defensive, desperate, and going into Force shut down during their lightsaber exchange. The Emperor is considerably more powerful than the Count as of Revenge of the Sith and vastly so circa Dark Empire.



Palpatine is the undisputed master of Force knowledge in the mythos. His knowledge of the Force and its technique surpass any and all individuals in depth and width. I find it a bit silly to assume he'll just rely on Force lightning. Not that it matters, of course, since it is all he'll need. He's capable of, around A New Hope, disintegrating three powerful Sith acolytes into ash with a casual burst; lighting up his entire office and destroying a batallion of stormtroopers; and mortally injuring two Jedi at a time when each usage of the Force brought him closer to death's door and he was "barely able to walk."



He's capable of waving his hand and disposing of the lesser Jedi. Windu can only compete with Sidious on a physical level after the many seconds it takes to submerge in Vaapad, but otherwise he is equally vulnerable to the Emperor's superior command of the Force. The only Jedi here remotely comparable to the Emperor is Yoda.



It won't be one versus four and none of them are "close." Though, I already said, if this were a saber fight, he'd be ****ed to an unquantifiable degree.



Your suppositions =/= fact. I don't necessarily disagree with the comparison to Luke, but you'll need to provide far more proof than this.



You, actually, haven't proven that at all nor come close.

Gideon, can you give us a senario where Sidious will be able to beat the team? I think they're smart enough to know that sabers is their best chance, and Sids is smart enough to realize that he must avoid a duel.

How many feet should be separating the team from Sidious to give him a chance, would surrounding him make a difference (I assume not with Bane's type of Force Storm coming into play), etc.?

All-out, of course.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@'Schwarzenegger' I have no time to respond to dumbasses like you. You didnt provide any arguments at all, all you did was try to protect Gideon like hes your boyfriend or something. Grow up, Gideon can handle himself.

He certainly can and, if he may say so, doing a spectacular job.



Simple. Telekinesis. Revenge of Sith. Final time I will offer such an explanation.



Show you where Dark Empire Sidious can vaporize lightsabers? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say... Dark Empire.



Irrelevant. Palpatine can create lightning storms that fill rooms. He's already demonstrated the ability to overpower Yoda and Windu with lightning even when they're armed with lightsabers.



He waves his hand, Kenobi and Skywalker are gone. It's as simple as that.



Luke can't do shit against Palpatine in this era in the Force and his lightsaber victory was under ambiguous circumstances, though, as I said, Palpatine would be royally ****ed if this came down to a lightsaber fight. It won't, though.



This is where people confuse fanboyism with reality. Canon has shown that Palpatine is stronger than previous Sith, smarter than previous Sith, is more knowledgeable than previous Sith, and more successful than previous Sith. I'm just the messenger. You want the real Sidious fanboys? Take it up with LFL.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, can you give us a senario where Sidious will be able to beat the team? I think they're smart enough to know that sabers is their best chance, and Sids is smart enough to realize that he must avoid a duel.

None of them have ever faced Dark Empire Sidious before. In his previous incarnation, Yoda was able to fight him to a standstill and Windu was able to gain a legitimate victory over him. He knows far more about his opponents than they know about him.



It doesn't matter. As I said, if it's close enough that they can just rush him in three tenths of a second and make this a lightsaber duel, he'll be owned. But he is faster than all four of them. Moreover, yes, he can overpower any of them with Force lightning and is capable of spreading it out to encompass a room.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@'Schwarzenegger' I have no time to respond to dumbasses like you. You didnt provide any arguments at all, all you did was try to protect Gideon like hes your boyfriend or something. Grow up, Gideon can handle himself.




If its anyone being a dumbass, its you hun, making absurd claims without backing it up and calling other people a dumbass?

Again i made it clear(its a pity you don't know how to read) as to why i didn't make any arguments in the first place, your inability to read is completely not my damn problem.

Oh and i didn't "protect" gideon, i simply respect him and needed to shut up a kotor fangay that tried to make gideon look like a dumbass, and people like you lack respect for anyone hence nobody is going to take you seriously.

Not happy with me? Do as the man faunus said, ignore me, theres a reason why they put the "ignore" option in the first place.



Originally posted by Kotor3
You really handed my ass to me with those statements. Cool down Schwarzenegger, nobody is calling you gay. Cursing now are we? Even though this is quite entertaining to me I will leave you alone since you are so sensitive. The thing is i AM gay, in the sense that i'm "happy and cheerful".

I just happen to enjoy insulting people with ragiing shemale hormones(like you).

Thats enough.. for now, i'll just add both of you into my "ignore list" for the time being so don't even bother thinking of replying.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
If its anyone being a dumbass, its you hun, making absurd claims without backing it up and calling other people a dumbass?

Again i made it clear(its a pity you don't know how to read) as to why i didn't make any arguments in the first place, your inability to read is completely not my damn problem.

Oh and i didn't "protect" gideon, i simply respect him and needed to shut up a kotor fangay that tried to make gideon look like a dumbass, and people like you lack respect for anyone hence nobody is going to take you seriously.

Not happy with me? Do as the man faunus said, ignore me, theres a reason why they put the "ignore" option in the first place.



The thing is i AM gay, in the sense that i'm "happy and cheerful".

I just happen to enjoy insulting people with ragiing shemale hormones(like you).

Thats enough.. for now, i'll just add both of you into my "ignore list" for the time being so don't even bother thinking of replying. Whoa that was...intense. will you go out with me.plz.

@Faunus


Force crush is an attack in kotor, its a game mechanic so I doubt its even canon. And Sidious has certainly not shown to be able to do it so lets leave it at that. Being the top sith isnt proof that he knows all techniques, like you and Gideon seem to believe. As you said, Morichro would take too long to save himself from getting engaged in a lightsaber duel. Force choke would take too long, force grip and throw arent fatal attacks they would merely buy him a bit of time. Sidious has never shown force sever, and I dont believe hes shown force stasis. Its possible he knows these attacks, but already your assuming much, and why doesnt he ever use them in situations where they would of been useful? Against Vader for instance. Stasis would of saved his ass from dieing.



Okay granted, but notice Enyalus' arguments also. And he used it against Leia. I doubt it would work as easily against a competent force user.



See above.



It seems you agree with me totally and completely here, so why are you arguing again?




Umm how did Luke get owned in two moves against Sidious? According to the material that Darkserpent supplied, the battle between Luke and Palpatine was something of an epic duel. I already acknowledged that DE Luke has shown better force feats, but they arent that amazing. Notice that in all three examples you have shown, Luke was dealing with a machine. That hardly proves he was more equipped to deal with Palpys dark side attacks than Anakin.




Fair enough. Though you havent proven my arguments are faulty yet, and it seems that we agree on the main idea here. Sids loses this fight.



Calling somone a fanboy is only a copout if you dont supply arguments to go along with it.

Mace Windu used Force Crush on Grevious' body during the Clone Wars, and Darth Zannah used it against the healer Caleb as torture...just two examples, non-game, off the top of my head.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Mace Windu used Force Crush on Grevious' body during the Clone Wars, and Darth Zannah used it against the healer Caleb as torture...just two examples, non-game, off the top of my head. Just to say it: it's not an inherently Dark attack.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@Faunus


Force crush is an attack in kotor, its a game mechanic so I doubt its even canon. And Sidious has certainly not shown to be able to do it so lets leave it at that. Being the top sith isnt proof that he knows all techniques, like you and Gideon seem to believe. As you said, Morichro would take too long to save himself from getting engaged in a lightsaber duel. Force choke would take too long, force grip and throw arent fatal attacks they would merely buy him a bit of time. Sidious has never shown force sever, and I dont believe hes shown force stasis. Its possible he knows these attacks, but already your assuming much, and why doesnt he ever use them in situations where they would of been useful? Against Vader for instance. Stasis would of saved his ass from dieing.

One needs a moment of concentration and clarity. Vader's attack caught him totally off guard.
And force crush existed before KOTOR. And Palpatine demonstrates it when he forces Sedriss to him accoridng to the Fact File 85


He's powerful enough so it would hardly matter anyways



Obi-wan and Anakin or Mace can really defend from him in the Force?



He disintegrates an army of battle droids with a wave of his hand. Just ONE is a difficult technique from the old republic times.
And the first duel had Luke bested rather easily

Its funny you mention that previous debate, you conviently left in the middle of the debate.

I'll grant to you that I havent read as much Post ROTJ stuff as you have. Its not my cup of tea. But I can still smell bad arguments, you inflate Sids powers to ridiculous levels.



Umm, Anakin owned Dooku, as is clearly evident by anyone that watched the movie. Ill grant that he used the force to defeat Obi wan, but that was by moving that HUGE object on top of him after the force grip. Force grip alone cant defeat somone. And if Dooku was so desperate and defensive, that was because he was being out maneuvered. I fail to see the relevence. Also The Emperor isnt vastly more powerful than Dooku, thats ridiculous. Dooku was able to hold off Yoda for a good while. The Emperor is stronger, but not by a vast amount.



And the hyperbole begins.



Force lightning has proven time and time against to be Sids staple and most effective attack. Force storm is more powerful, but its not applicable in close quarters.

I hardly consider Sids defeating some lowly acolytes to be relevent here. The Jedi he is facing are some of the most powerful the galaxy has ever known. Stormtroopers........? Your stretching now. I assume the Jedi you mean were in Lukes strike force when Palpy goes after the child. They were new order Jedi, and hardly comparable to Anakin 'The Chosen One' or Obi Wan much less Yoda.




No he isnt going to wave his hand and destroy 3 very powerful Jedi. You have no proof at all, and frankly your being ridiculous.



Agreed.



Your suppositions dont =/= fact either. You accuse me of needing proof when atleast my supposition was reasonable(like you yourself said) while the main point of your argument is that Sidious would wave his hand and defeat 3 of the most powerful Jedi ever?

You'll excuse me if I ignore these, Ive addressed them already.





No its still relevent. Lightning that fills a room cannot be as powerful as a concentrated blast.

Did you watch the same movie I did? It seemed pretty clear to me that Yoda stopped Sids force lightning with his bare hands and then threw it back at his ass. Mace stopped the lightning also and redirected it in his face. Mace was only defeated when Anakin cut his arm off and he lost his lightsaber. Mace will have his lightsaber in this duel.



Even with some support from Leia, Luke still won and that sheds an unfavorable light on DE Sids supposedly godlike powers.




This fight isnt related to the sith. And your far from an objective messenger.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I hardly consider Sids defeating some lowly acolytes to be relevent here. The Jedi he is facing are some of the most powerful the galaxy has ever known. Stormtroopers........? Your stretching now. I assume the Jedi you mean were in Lukes strike force when Palpy goes after the child. They were new order Jedi, and hardly comparable to Anakin 'The Chosen One' or Obi Wan much less Yoda.




No he isnt going to wave his hand and destroy 3 very powerful Jedi. You have no proof at all, and frankly your being ridiculous. The point isn't that he'll "wave his hand" and destroy them. The point is that he's done it with such ease and speed to lowly Force-users, it's only a matter of tearing down the defences of the these guys. And he will. Maybe not quickly, maybe not even easily, but he will, and they'll die from it.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
You'll excuse me if I ignore these, Ive addressed them already.





No its still relevent. Lightning that fills a room cannot be as powerful as a concentrated blast.
It's still enough to kill. Someone as powerful as Palpatine is going to generate remarkably powerful lightning, no matter how spread out

And Palpatine won't be faking any weakness in this duel, either, nor will he be needing to turn Anakin. This is a different and more powerful Palpatine.



Please learn what you are talking about. At that point, according to sources as the audiobook, Luke and Palpatine essentially entered into avatar states of the Force, Luke of the light and Palpatine of the dark.




I'll chime in: he's right and LFL has done nothing but support his position

I see Palpatine killing two members of the team, before being forced into a duel and losing. Obi-Wan and Anakin would be the most likely. If Sidious is good at making split second, in-combat decisions, he'll target Mace and Anakin though.

Mace's submersion in Vaapad doesn't take that long. He was holding his own against Palpatine from the outset. If he wasn't submerged in Vaapad for the first few moments of that duel, it only adds to his saber skills. I think if Sidious from the outset strikes at Mace with Lightning, he wouldn't be able to handle it and it would end up killing him. Ditto with Anakin.

However, Obi-Wan and Anakin would be easier to kill with the Force, and if he opts for that, then he's going to have to deal with Yoda and Mace in sabers and will be screwed.

Attempting to strike Yoda and Mace, or even Yoda, with the Force - is going to take a lot of power and most likely not even kill Yoda, so that would be a wasted effort. If he takes out Anakin and Mace (assuming he can take Mace before he uses Vaapad), that leaves Yoda and Obi-Wan to fend off in sabers - Obi-Wan would more than likely use Sorseu and be defensive, which would be DE Sidious' only chance to win this battle.

Any other attempt is going to end in failure. If he attempts to use Force Storm and hit all four members, it isn't going to be strong enough to kill anyone. Perhaps it incapacitates Anakin. Hardly going to disintegrate them, though. These are four of the best PT Jedi of their era. And have lightsabers to defend themselves and soak some or all of the damage.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Force crush is an attack in kotor, its a game mechanic so I doubt its even canon.It's canon. Nejaa Halcyon used it to break every bone in a Dark Jedi's body, and I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the New Essential Guide to the Force.

" has fully mastered every single dark side technique ever devised and invents new ones at his leisure."

From the Dark Empire Sourcebook, apparently. A ridiculous quote from a presumably ridiculous book, but it stands. Sidious can do pretty much anything any previous Dark Lord has done under his/her own power.

It doesn't really matter. You think Anakin or Obi-Wan's Force-defenses can halt Palpatine's lightning?

Because I agree that Sidious dies, but pieces of your argument are flawed and invalid.

If you haven't read Dark Empire - I've looked at the ten relevant pages - at least Wiki it. Luke tried to destroy Palpatine's clones when the Sith Lord was attempting to possess them, and he missed one. He Force-pushed Sidious down for a moment, and then they both summoned lightsabers. They clashed once, and the next panel Luke was on his ass, with his lightsaber flying away.

He got owned.

You tell me what Anakin's ever done with the Force that remotely approaches those feats in magnitude. He's a better duelist, but an inferior master of the Force.

These arguments don't quite hold, GV. It was unnecessary.

I certainly agree that DE Sidious is no god, but you're downplaying his abilities considerably.

You're right. In fact, if he doesn't have a Dark Lord of the Sith hammering away at his face with three feet of plasma, it appears only to take a moment of concentration. Depa, in Shatterpoint, immersed herself in it almost instantly before utterly destroying multiple gunships filled with soldiers. She just closed her eyes, opened them, and bam, Vaapad'd.

@ LS

I have to disagree with this. His watered down lightning is not enough to overpower two powerful Jedi Anakin and Obi wan, before the saber battle is engaged.



Alright I'll grant this.



The argument that Palpy lost on purpose to Mace to turn Anakin has always been sketchy at best. Palpy is stronger this time, but now hes facing four opponents.

If stasis needs concentration to power up, than hes already dead from the charging Jedi. Gideons argument requires that he dispatch Anakin and Obi wan before the saber battle is even engaged. Afterwards Sids will be too occupied.


I disagree.



Im not debating they would not lose individually in an extended force battle. Palpy doesnt have alot of time though, Yoda and Mace will be down his throat within seconds.



Whats your source for this and why is destroying a droid so difficult? Its simple machinery.



Granted.

@Faunus

Alright. But do you really think that Sids will overpower the defenses of Anakin and Obi Wan and crush them with the force before somone can intervene? Force crush no doubt takes time and alot of concentration. And there defenses arent going to be overwhelmed instantly.



Alright you got me there.



Yeah, long enough. And even if he breaks there lightsaber defense, lightning doesnt kill powerful force users instantly. Even ROTJ Luke could survive for awhile. And Palpy has very limited time to carry out the deed.



All arguments have holes. Yes you or LS point have pointed out some trivia that I was unaware of, but my central point remains untouched as Gideons argument is based on Sids pulling out his wtfpwn moves to defeat 3 powerful Jedi in a matter of seconds.



Yeah LS informed me of this.



Surviving being cut in half and burned alive in lava for one. Its agreed though that overall DE Luke has shown more impressive force feats. Keep in mind though that lightsaber skill is heavily correlated with ability in the force.

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, where to begin? We'll deal with kotor3 first.
Talking to Schwarzenegger is like dealing with a child but you, you are fun so let us debate.

Originally posted by Gideon

I would use the same "I wasn't being serious" excuse as well if I didn't create a thread and then offer serious(ly stupid) rebuttals and watched them get shredded. Sadly, I've never found myself in such a predicament, though I'm fairly certain I could manage it with greater class than you can muster.

A definite appropriate statement showing that you are purely full of yourself. I like that because it will be very nice to humble someone like you.

Originally posted by Gideon

I have already done so. Your inappropriate sarcasm was equally unnecessary. It's evident that you're not held in high regard, so let's not pretend that your opinion actually means something in the grand scheme of things. This is the status quo. Save your personal outrage with me until such a time when you can actually summon the ability to debate on a level exceeding that of your local Special Ed. class, which I would highly recommend that you join.

Wrong you have not. If anyone sarcasm was inappropriate it was yours. As for all of your sarcasm and little jokes, believe me you do not want to get into that with me.

So far, once again your statements show nothing!

Originally posted by Gideon

Your apparent inability to read makes me question why I should take the time to answer you again and again. This will be for the final time. Despite the fact that he was pushed on the defensive, desperate, and in the throes of what would be a "Force shut down", Count Dooku managed to disable Obi-Wan with mere telekinesis not once but twice, while simultaneously keeping Skywalker at bay. Moreover, Skywalker later demonstrates Force mastery that is only equal to Kenobi's during their duel on Mustafar. Here, we are dealing with an individual whose potency and mastery of the Force is lightyears ahead of Count Dooku's. It is logical that Darth Sidious, at this point, would be easily capable of manhandling Kenobi and Skywalker simultaneously with sheer telekinesis, since he is aware of their abilities intimately and is a strong proponent of self preservation.

Finally you decide to address the topic. Anakin and Obi Wan vs DE Sidious no doubt would be destruction for Anakin and Obi Wan. However there are two more people who are more powerful than Anakin and Obi Wan, Yoda and Mace who DE Sidious has to contend with.

So tell me as DE Sidious is using telekinesis on Obi Wan or Anakin or both at the same time, would that not leave him open to Mace and Yoda?

Also while DE Sidious throws one or both of them, Yoda could one save one or two while Mace engages DE Sidious who is left open. So I do not see how telekinesis or force lighting would be able to save DE Sidious from engaging in a saber fight.

Originally posted by Gideon

Do you typically laugh when being beaten in an argument? That's actually quite admirable. The rest of us laugh when we find genuine humor in situations, such as the sheer hilarity of your rebuttals and apparent illiteracy.

Full of yourself. Stay on topic.

Originally posted by Gideon

Someone has spent too much time playing KotOR and actually hasn't watched the movies. For the record, the movies are vastly more important or better than that game. Here is one clear statement from Mace Windu in Attack of the Clones: "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

I do not know where you get the Kotor thing from, but I do like kotor as I believe everyone else here does.

Gideon are not cops keepers of peace? There are government agencies that focus on terrorism that can be considered keepers of peace. They are all soldiers, trained in a specific duty to protect but there abilities can cause them to kill someone who disturbs the peace or law.

So tell me, in star wars Jedi are different? They help the republic to fight against enemies and sith. They are trained to protect but there abilities can cause them to kill which they will do at times. Jedi are not monks or priest.

Originally posted by Gideon

Moreover, I've explained to you once that a powerful, seasoned duo (the Jedi Order's greatest team) was unable to fight efficiently against Dooku. What makes you think that the presence of Windu or Yoda would make a difference, since they have never worked with Skywalker or Kenobi in combat?

See statement above.

Originally posted by Gideon

In essence, your syllogism is absolutely retarded. Since you cannot summon the courtesy of actually forming a logical argument, perhaps you would spend the rest of your overabundant time making up better excuses for your grotesque failures?

Thanks,
Gideon.

On to Great Vengeance.

Oh Gideon hopefully you have better responses then the ones you came up with in this post. You need to stop praising yourself and look at your arguments.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@Faunus

Alright. But do you really think that Sids will overpower the defenses of Anakin and Obi Wan and crush them with the force before somone can intervene?Again, Dooku it. So can Sidious.

Force-crush takes no such thing. It's applied telekinesis. None of the CWC instances (Mace, Anakin) take more than a gesture.

It can. Sidious, with one hand, completely disintegrated three dark side acolytes. If this lightning is going to hit Anakin and Obi-Wan after reducing their metal lightsaber to ash, they're going to die.

When Palpatine was torturing him. It's relative to the scenario, and even at the "now you die" point he wasn't using his full, demonstrated power.

I agree.

He wasn't in lava, he was in really hot sand. Luke, meanwhile, walked on lava and killed some giant monster while doing it.

On a basic level, yes. But Anakin's quality and duration of training completely eclipses that of Luke, and he's done considerably more impressive things with it than Luke has. He would take a duel, but lose dramatically in a Force-battle. It's not like Luke himself hasn't shown a tendency for Force-choking people.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@ LS

I have to disagree with this. His watered down lightning is not enough to overpower two powerful Jedi Anakin and Obi wan, before the saber battle is engaged.
Spread out lightning, when he was not even trying, annihilated over a hundred human beings. Obi-wan and Anakin have displayed no resistance to lightning and Palpatine can reduce human beings to smoking bone or ash if he wishes.



The saber duel is one thing, the lightning duel emphatically is not. Lucas outright said Palpatine was faking his weakness and in no way did the lightning deform him to that degree. I believe the most agreed upon definition was Palpatine using a previously unknown force technique to alter his face at a molecular level-we see him change his face in one comic- and either removed it or the lightning removed it.
And he's pretty much facing three opponents. Obi-wan is a non issue for Palpatine. If anyone dies first it's him.
And why is the notion that the guy who had the galaxy dancing to his tune for over a decade and has never shown himself unwilling to put his neck on the line be above trusting himself to Anakin? In the ROTS novel, Mace found Palpatine's shatterpoint: He trusted Anakin. Completely.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
If stasis needs concentration to power up, than hes already dead from the charging Jedi. Gideons argument requires that he dispatch Anakin and Obi wan before the saber battle is even engaged. Afterwards Sids will be too occupied.


Concentrate to power up? Powerful Jedi and Sith unleash power almost instantly and Palpatine's as powerful as they come.

In the force, Palpatine exceeds any of them. By far. And he's using an unfamiliar attack on their sabers.



In a force fight, though, Palpatine is capable of staying ahead and unleashed a full storm of lightning to hold them at bay. This isn't even counting the abilities he knows that can render his opponents pretty ineffectual


He does it early DE-audiobook elaborates on the numbers- and as we know from TOTJ, this is not an easy technique and takes some time to master....even for one droid at a time




Granted.

DE Sidsious owns the force battle... Now those who disagree let it go.

Lightsnake I want to address this one to you. I have seen different responses but how much more powerful is DE Sidious to ROTS Sidious?

Also I have seen threads in which it has been argued that DE Sidious could defeat two powerful sith lords who work together to defeat him such as, Revan and Bane. People would argue that Yoda and Mace could fair well if not defeat Revan and Bane.

I guess my next question is even if Obi Wan and Anakin were taken out by force lighting could DE Sidious defeat Mace and Yoda?

@Faunus

Dooku didnt use force crush against the duo. And again, Dooku lost.


Its a gesture to start it, but the actual crushing will take time to carry out. And to do it to two opponents? Too much time.



As Ive stated before, some lowly acolytes are in no way comparable to Anakin and Obi wan.

Enyalus post said that Palpy waved his hand and destroyed Leias saber, not lightning. That implies some kind of telekinesis.



Yes ofcourse, but if Palpy is filling the room with lightning it will not be full power either.



He was engulfed in flames from the heat of it though. Surviving the deadly wound and then being burned alive is nothing to scoff at any way you look at it.



Anakin has had considerably more training in using the force as well. Do you think that they only teach lightsaber combat at the Jedi temple?

@ LS


Killing human beings is like killing sheep to a Sith, I dont consider the feat that impressive. By virtue of being strong in the force, Obi Wan and Anakin must have some resistance to it, and they still have their lightsaber. I havent seen a convincing argument yet which would show that Sidious can destroy a powerful opponents lightsaber at will. He only used it to destroy Leias outdated lightsaber.



Yes he was faking his weakness when he was whining about how he was too weak, that he couldnt continue the lightning assault. Palpy no doubt could of continued alot longer, but Mace was redirecting it in his face and lightning directly in the face will do damage to anyone. And arguing that Palpy could of overpowered Mace if he wanted to is stretching it. The movie doesnt suggest it, you would be relying entirely on supposition.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Spread out lightning, when he was not even trying, annihilated over a hundred human beings. Obi-wan and Anakin have displayed no resistance to lightning and Palpatine can reduce human beings to smoking bone or ash if he wishes.

I asking more than stating here Lightsnake, don't you have to be force sensitive or a force user in order to survive or even resist force lighting for any length of time?

If that is true then Sidious killing humans who were not force sensitive would have not bearing on Anakin and Obi Wan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

The saber duel is one thing, the lightning duel emphatically is not. Lucas outright said Palpatine was faking his weakness and in no way did the lightning deform him to that degree. I believe the most agreed upon definition was Palpatine using a previously unknown force technique to alter his face at a molecular level-we see him change his face in one comic- and either removed it or the lightning removed it.
And he's pretty much facing three opponents. Obi-wan is a non issue for Palpatine. If anyone dies first it's him.

Do you have a reference for your statement concerning Lucas? I have heard different so many times.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

And why is the notion that the guy who had the galaxy dancing to his tune for over a decade and has never shown himself unwilling to put his neck on the line be above trusting himself to Anakin? In the ROTS novel, Mace found Palpatine's shatterpoint: He trusted Anakin. Completely.

Sidious took a big chance with Anakin as he did with Luke in ROTJ. I believe that Palpatine's was powerful enough and did not really feel in danger, thus allowed himself to seem as if he was in a dying position in order to seduce Anakin. The only one he ever felt in danger of losing was obviously Yoda.

@ LS


Yes but in the previous argument you stated that stasis would require some concentration. If it was an attack that could be used instantly and at will theres no reason Sidious would not have used it against Vader. He was suprised yes, but that doesnt magically disable his powers.




Palpy isnt that far ahead of Yoda in the force, and not so far ahead of the others that he would defeat them with ease. Obi wan maybe, but killing Obi wan would be all that he would be to get off before the lightsaber combat was engaged. If he was focusing his power on keeping everyone at bay, than even Obi wan would be able to stand his ground for a little while. And I explained how the attack against their lightsabers would be questionable at best, in my previous post.




See above. And Sids cant use stasis or something at the same time as his lightning attack. Its one or the other.



Alright.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Ugh.

KotOR 3, why make this thread?

I guess we can't ask this question anymore, look at the responses.

Well, I guess the thread is not as ridiculous as it first sounded, eh?

By the way, I still think Sidious will die. But people make good arguments here.

IMO the fight goes like this. Palpy overwhelms Obi wan with the full blast of his lightning, and then gets drawn in the lightsaber duel with the trio and loses. Or, Sids uses his lightning to keep them all at bay, but it just delays his fate because the watered down lightning wont be enough to kill both Anakin and Obi Wan before Yoda breaks out of it and forces it into a lightsaber duel that Sids eventually loses.

I havent seen a more reasonable scenario from the opposition.

How is his 'watered down lightning' not going to be enough to kill Obi-wan and Anakin? Prolonged exposure will burn them to ash when it hits them and even if they survive, they'll be in no state to fight.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@ LS


Yes but in the previous argument you stated that stasis would require some concentration. If it was an attack that could be used instantly and at will theres no reason Sidious would not have used it against Vader. He was suprised yes, but that doesnt magically disable his powers.

He DID attack him- with lightning and that's when he was fully taken off guard and Vader needed only a moment.

Concentration isn't something Sith and Jedi struggle with. And again, the combatants will be ready for battle


By DE? He is. He was already a monster in the force as of ROTS, and he's improved considerably since

According to? He can hold up the lightning a while and except maybe Yoda, none of the others can defend themselves

Based on? It took everything Mace had to hold on ROTS Palpatine's lightning and he was still about to drop

Palpatine is far more powerful than any of them, using an unfamiliar attack and their defenses don't extend to their sabers




According to..?

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Dooku didnt use force crush against the duo. And again, Dooku lost.Jesus Christ.

Twice in their duel, Dooku put Obi-Wan on his ass with a flick of his wrist. The first time was momentarily, the second was for the duration of the duel. He picked him and smacked him into something, and Kenobi was done. Dropping the balcony on him was unnecessary.

At the same time, he kicked Anakin backwards and had him on the ground for several seconds. Now, in that time, immediately after tossing away Obi-Wan, he could've easily killed Skywalker. Lightning, telekinesis, that thing he did to Ventress, whatever. The Count's Sith lightning has knocked out Anakin instantly before, and he replicated the feat on Sora Bulq.

Now, Sidious as of DE is far faster than Dooku. He's stronger, he's tremendously more powerful and masterful. His arsenal of lethal or crippling techniques is vastly larger and more comprehensive than that of his former apprentice. If Dooku could do it Anakin and Obi-Wan, so can Sidious. And he can do it faster and better.

You're making me cringe here.

Anakin does it to several Techno Union fools when he gets ticked off, and he does it instantly. Mace does it to General Grievous. Halcyon, as I've already told you, does it to the dark Jedi immediately. It's an instant attack.

Stop grasping for straws.

You are, again, missing the point entirely. With one hand, Sidious disintegrated three people. With one hand, Dooku put the likes of a younger Anakin and Sora Bulq out for several seconds. Palpatine's lightning as of RotS was too much for Mace Windu to bear, evidenced by the fact that he was "choking on ozone," and that " beyond Vaapad." If the Sith Lord hadn't been holding back, Mace would've eaten his lightsaber.

Now, DE Sidious, younger, faster, stronger, and more powerful than anyone who has ever lived before him, is going to do that to Anakin and Obi-Wan. And they are going to die. Yoda could barely hold back a weaker Palpatine's lightning. Mace couldn't hold back a weaker Palpatine's lightning.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are dead.

Again, grasping for straws. It was lightning, Enyalus was emphasizing the point that Sidious can do ridiculous things with a gesture. Not that this even matters, because if he can telekinetically destroy metal he's going to do terrible things to the duo's faces.

And of course, you're forgetting that Sidious ripped a lightsaber out of Yoda's hands. You know, the most powerful Jedi in history.

The loss of limbs - which, with a lightsaber, cauterizes the wounds and prevents blood loss - is not "deadly." His rage allowed him to survive getting set on fire, which I'm not "scoffing" at, but you're evading the point. Luke walked on lava while fighting a massive beast. Something that was clearly well beyond Anakin's capabilities. Luke deflected AT-AT blasts with a smile, destroyed a force of killer droids with a wave of his hand, and shoved said AT-AT into ground.

I pose the question again: What has Anakin done?

Again. What has Anakin done?

Your arguments are slipping, GV.

I want someone who is taking up DE Sids for the win here to address this. And please, don't say something like, "Well, thats your speculation."

Originally posted by Enyalus
I see Palpatine killing two members of the team, before being forced into a duel and losing. Obi-Wan and Anakin would be the most likely. If Sidious is good at making split second, in-combat decisions, he'll target Mace and Anakin though.

Mace's submersion in Vaapad doesn't take that long. He was holding his own against Palpatine from the outset. If he wasn't submerged in Vaapad for the first few moments of that duel, it only adds to his saber skills. I think if Sidious from the outset strikes at Mace with Lightning, he wouldn't be able to handle it and it would end up killing him. Ditto with Anakin.

However, Obi-Wan and Anakin would be easier to kill with the Force, and if he opts for that, then he's going to have to deal with Yoda and Mace in sabers and will be screwed.

Attempting to strike Yoda and Mace, or even Yoda, with the Force - is going to take a lot of power and most likely not even kill Yoda, so that would be a wasted effort. If he takes out Anakin and Mace (assuming he can take Mace before he uses Vaapad), that leaves Yoda and Obi-Wan to fend off in sabers - Obi-Wan would more than likely use Sorseu and be defensive, which would be DE Sidious' only chance to win this battle.

Any other attempt is going to end in failure. If he attempts to use Force Storm and hit all four members, it isn't going to be strong enough to kill anyone. Perhaps it incapacitates Anakin. Hardly going to disintegrate them, though. These are four of the best PT Jedi of their era. And have lightsabers to defend themselves and soak some or all of the damage.

Also keep in mind that in KOTOR3's original post he doesn't specify sabers, force, and all-out. So I'm assuming he only wants the all-out senario.

Two more things to consider: we don't know that Leia's lightsaber was made out of any kind of metal. Did you see how it looked? And its 10,000 years old ontop of it, so even if it was metal, it would have been worn out clearly.

Secondly, and most importantly, the idea that Palpatine can reduce any of these Jedi lightsabers to ash is absurd. Palpatine's own saber was made of phrik, which is lightsaber resistant and nearly unbreakable. We don't know that their weapons aren't made of the same. Furthermore, in Yoda and Sidious' ROTS duel, Yoda loses his balance, exposes the hilt of his lightsaber, and Palpatine hits it with a direct burst of his lightning. What happens? Nothing. It gets knocked out of his hand, falls hundreds of feet to the Senate floor, and is shown afterwards looking completely fine. Evidence that his lightning cannot simply disintegrate PT era Jedi lightsabers. Even if it could, they would never be stupid enough to expose the hilt of their weapons like Yoda did, because he was off balance.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Palpy isnt that far ahead of Yoda in the force, and not so far ahead of the others that he would defeat them with ease.Are you kidding me?

As of RotS, he was the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Powerful enough to defeat Yoda. Powerful enough to make Mace Windu - freakishly strong, exceptionally powerful, master of Vaapad - realize that he was being overwhelmed. Powerful enough that Yoda deemed Kenobi too weak to even try and confront him.

By DE, he can create wormholes that rip Luke Skywalker off of one planet and deposit him inside a capital ship. He can create storms that rend the fabric of space-time and can tear the surfaces off of worlds. His mere presence can create a dark taint on an entire planet. His Sith lightning has increased in power and potency to the point that he can casually wipe out dozens of armored soldiers and vaporize lightsabers, experienced Force-users, and large chunks of space age metal. He has mastered every single technique of the dark side and invents some of his own.

He is a notch above Yoda, and the rest can't even compete on any level. Yoda himself, the only one here who could challenge Sidious under his own power, has no shot of actually winning an engagement, only stalling the inevitable.

Don't be ridiculous.

For starters, Obi-Wan - with his mastery and control of the Force taken into account - is as much a threat in the Force as Anakin is. In this case that doesn't mean much, but Anakin's effective power is no greater than that of Kenobi's, as proved on Mustafar in their Force-push contest. So if Kenobi can die, so can Anakin, and they both will die almost immediately if Palpatine wills it.

Right. Because somehow they're going to defend against an assault that, decades before, when weak in comparison, ripped Master Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands and pretty much overwhelmed Mace Windu. Sorry, but Anakin and Obi-Wan can't stop lightning with their bare hands.

Hell, they don't even have to die (they will). Even a fraction of a second of exposure to Sidious' lightning will take them out of the fight - Dooku's done it more than once, as I've already said, and so can Palpatine.

That's not even remotely true. Dooku managed to throw a "wall of dark energy" (Force-push) at Anakin while simultaneously striking him with lightning. The combined effect slammed him into a wall and knocked him out. Sidious can do that, and much, much more to these two without much effort.

Edit - nevermind.

I'm on an extraordinarily limited timeframe here, so I will not be able to address everyone's arguments until later on tonight. But, as I see, Lightsnake and Faunus have been manhandling GV's argument in the past few hours that there is very little for me to point out other than a few scathing insults for his apparent ignorance and wanton lecturing about bad arguments.

Kotor3, I promise you, I will light into you once I get back, thus concluding your 15 minutes of fame by flame. LS, thank you for the grunt work, and Faunus, I'd like to give you mad props. Even though we've had our disagreements, it is truly amusing to see you kick the ass of someone who agrees with you. You da man.

EDIT: I might quickly address Enyalus's response.

Stop praising people and apologizing and shit. It's kinda scary.

Ah, whatever. *basks in the glory*

EDIT -- And why isn't "shit" censored?

Originally posted by Faunus
Stop praising people and apologizing and shit. It's kinda scary.

Ah, whatever. *basks in the glory*

EDIT -- And why isn't "shit" censored?

I will have no time to address Enyalus's argument. I was going a bit more in depth when I get back.

Enlayus, Kotor3... and should I even bother with GV?

I can't believe you lumped me in with KOTOR3 and GV. *sniffles* I thought I was special to you!!

Originally posted by Enyalus
I want someone who is taking up DE Sids for the win here to address this. And please, don't say something like, "Well, thats your speculation."I'm pro-Jedi here, so I'll let Gideon get to that, but some of the other pro-Jedi peoples' arguments are depressing.

Even if this assumption is true, he disintegrates a sizable piece of metal that someone tries to drop on his head. It's far larger than any lightsaber hilt, obviously.

Despite the fact that he's already done it.

Anakin's lightsaber gets cut in half by a metal machine in AotC, and Mace's lightsaber is explicitly stated to be made of electrum. The onus would be on you to prove that either Kenobi or Yoda have indestructible lightsabers.

Uh, no. Yoda isn't off-balance until Palpatine hits him with the lightning. He's planted pretty well on the edge of the pod with his lightsaber in a ready stance and that badass "I'm Yoda" look in his eyes, clearly not teetering around or anything.

Evidence that RotS Sidious' lightning can't disintegrate PT-era lightsabers. Again, DE Sidious has disintegrated far larger and more massive things with his lightning.

Except he wasn't, Leia's already done it, and they don't need to "expose" their hilts to Sidious because if the lightning doesn't hit their blades or hilt it'll just char their flesh into nothingness.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm on an extraordinarily limited timeframe here, so I will not be able to address everyone's arguments until later on tonight. But, as I see, Lightsnake and Faunus have been manhandling GV's argument in the past few hours that there is very little for me to point out other than a few scathing insults for his apparent ignorance and wanton lecturing about bad arguments.

Kotor3, I promise you, I will light into you once I get back, thus concluding your 15 minutes of fame by flame. LS, thank you for the grunt work, and Faunus, I'd like to give you mad props. Even though we've had our disagreements, it is truly amusing to see you kick the ass of someone who agrees with you. You da man.

EDIT: I might quickly address Enyalus's response.

Please hurry and give us some of your time oh great one. Don't compare your invalid arguements to Lightsnake's. Come back and do the one thing you have been good at on this thread and that is entertaining us.

What are your arguments, anyway? From what I've seen they're exactly the same as GV's and Enyalus', and those have been dealt with.

Originally posted by Faunus
What are your arguments, anyway? From what I've seen they're exactly the same as GV's and Enyalus', and those have been dealt with.

Obviously Faunus not everyone is in agreement with your statements. I am not going to repost every statement that has not been addressed, I have a simple question:

Can you or anyone provide an example in which Sidious or DE Sidious was able to kill a powerful Jedi on the level of Anakin and Obi Wan with force lighting? If you can I will concede to that arguement.

If you cannot, then that arguement that they will die quickly due to force lighting should be excluded because one:
How much DE Sidious exceeds ROTS Sidious in power seems to be up for debate.
Two:
If there are no examples then you are speculating which I have been explained to on more than one occassion that this is not acceptable on KMC.

I will be gone for a while. I will come back because I egarly await Gideon responses.