Abkhazia and South Ossetia recognised as Independent Nations by Russia
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Grand_Moff_Gav
Yesterday the Russian Federation recognized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
International reaction has been mixed, but largely predictable.
Transnistria, another breakaway republic is the only other "nation" to recognize Abkhazia and Ossestia. The Hamas government of Palestine has also supported the move.
Belarus has stated: "it was an absolutely correct decision. All responsible people should support Russia, so as to put an end to the unilateral influence in the world of the US and the European Union. Have the US and the West forgotten, how they accepted Kosovo's independence, how they bombed Yugoslavia, are bombing Iraq, and have forgotten Afghanistan?"
France, Germany, the UK and USA are all against the move along with many other countries...
What do we think of this move?
Ushgarak
I think Belarus needs to look up the definition of 'unilateral'.
Anyway, Russia continues to huff and puff but they will still be the biggest losers from all this nonsense.
inimalist
Originally posted by Ushgarak
but they will still be the biggest losers from all this nonsense.
I disagree, I think that designation has to go to the Georgian population
EDIT: more on topic, should we expect autonomy for Chechnya next, given the Russians apparent sympathy for break away regions?
lil bitchiness
Oh the IRONY! I didn't think this was going to happen that quick.
This is a slap in America's face for its reckless policy to forecefully separate Kosovo from Serbia and with that, they have trampled on international law.
Russia just did the same. But twice fold.
Any mention of territorial integrity, international law that Bush and co throw at Russia is redundant, because in February they denied territorial integrity and international justice to Russia's very old ally, Serbia.
Russians used that very very well. 'The Bear' knows how to play chess. And its playing very very well.
Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh the IRONY! I didn't think this was going to happen that quick.
This is a slap in America's face for its reckless policy to forecefully separate Kosovo from Serbia and with that, they have trampled on international law.
Russia just did the same. But twice fold.
Any mention of territorial integrity, international law that Bush and co throw at Russia is redundant, because in February they denied territorial integrity and international justice to Russia's very old ally, Serbia.
Russians used that very very well. 'The Bear' knows how to play chess. And its playing very very well.
Territorial Integrity...what nonsense.
Anyone remember the Territorial Integrity of Afghanastan when the US supported the Northern Alliance. Or the Territorial Integrity of Iraq? Or Serbia?
The real reason the Western World is scared of this is because they are all sitting on nations ready to spilt.
The UK could be gone in decades.
Belgium is near total fracture.
Separatists are active in France and Spain.
Canada could lose Quebec.
The USA would find its allies falling apart...then, if it really catches on...
Ushgarak
Well you know, they would have been trampling on international law if that seperation had not been internationally recognised!
It WAS legal, that was the point. There is nothing even slightly legal - or significantly internationally recognised- about the Georgia situation.
Serbia lost its case, that's all. And 'The Bear' is playing chess like an angry child. They have nothing near the power or finesse to pull off this sort of thing long-term-= they need the co-operation of the rest of the world WAY more than the world needs it. They won't gain from being forzen out of the WTO or other such international organisations. They won't gain by turning the whole world against them.
They are simply losing. Russia is throwing it all away.
chillmeistergen
Russia are behaving completely stupidly.
inimalist
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Canada could lose Quebec.
from my understanding, Separatism went out of style in Quebec when the nationalist party lost the Provincial elections.
EDIT: you know, I'm just sayin'
xmarksthespot
It seems more a testing of waters to see how far they can provoke the West while receiving little more than harsh words in response...
Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Russia are behaving completely stupidly.
In what way?
The US elite are trying to isolate Russia, to the point of building Missile Silos and launch sites outside their borders...anyone remember when that happened in Cuba?
The real motives going on in the White House is fear of growing Russian power what with the Oil Crisis.
Now, question is- will America take on the Russians and Iran? Seemingly anyone who doesn't want to operate in their sphere of influence is a threat...
Ushgarak
In Cuba they were putting down NUCLEAR missiles. If you cannot see the difference you are making a fool of yourself.
The only real motive here is a jealous post Cold War Russia trying to angry re-assert the power it lost because, basically, it was such a cruel and inefficient nation that planted hatred and divison whereever it went. Which they are in danger of creating anew.
Russia is making just about everyone side against it. The US doesn't need to act so.
That Russia is power posturing to gauge Western reaction I agree with though.
xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
will America take on the Russians and Iran? No. Unless they completely fail to realize how much the foray in Iraq has weakened them abroad...
Neither the US nor Russia want a real conflict, nor a return to the Cold War.
chillmeistergen
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
In what way?
The US elite are trying to isolate Russia, to the point of building Missile Silos and launch sites outside their borders...anyone remember when that happened in Cuba?
The real motives going on in the White House is fear of growing Russian power what with the Oil Crisis.
Now, question is- will America take on the Russians and Iran? Seemingly anyone who doesn't want to operate in their sphere of influence is a threat...
Because all they're achieving is turning most of the world against them, it's not worth it.
Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Because all they're achieving is turning most of the world against them, it's not worth it.
I don't think the are turning the world against them, if the USA survived Iraq Russia will survive any bad feeling over this...
The are playing the long game and in my opinion successfully.
Robtard
There's not going to be open warfare with Russia or Iran. Sure, America (probably via Israel) will take out any nuclear capabilities the Russians sell to Iran, but America isn't going to have what is going on in Iraq with Iran, it's not necessary.
There are also U.S. bases in Iraq within spitting distance of Iran, that's good enough to spy on and perform covert attacks if needed. The Russian's won't care either, sure there will be accusations and condemnations will fly, but meh.
Ushgarak
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I don't think the are turning the world against them, if the USA survived Iraq Russia will survive any bad feeling over this...
The are playing the long game and in my opinion successfully.
Yes, the world is turning against them- and no-one seriously compare Georgia and Iraq.
Russia's plan is hopeless long-term.
lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well you know, they would have been trampling on international law if that seperation had not been internationally recognised!
It WAS legal, that was the point. There is nothing even slightly legal - or significantly internationally recognised- about the Georgia situation.
Serbia lost its case, that's all. And 'The Bear' is playing chess like an angry child. They have nothing near the power or finesse to pull off this sort of thing long-term-= they need the co-operation of the rest of the world WAY more than the world needs it. They won't gain from being forzen out of the WTO or other such international organisations. They won't gain by turning the whole world against them.
They are simply losing. Russia is throwing it all away.
There was NOTHING slightly legal about forcefully separating Kosovo from Serbia. It directly violated UN Charter and resolution 1244.
How is territorial integrity of Gruzia more important than that of Serbia?
You cannot apply territorial integrity to one part of the world, but deny it elsewhere.
America and the satelites violated UN charter when they recognized Kosovo.
None of them have any place to tell Russia it is breaking the law they themselves broke only 6 months ago.
RocasAtoll
Abhakazia and South Ossetia should be allowed to be independent, but that doesn't change the fact Russia is acting like a three year old with this action.
Jovan
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Belgium is near total fracture.
What the flying **** are you talking about????
I suggest you stop reading lousy sewer-like tabloids and other retarded "newspapers" and go to the source directly: the people.
Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Jovan
What the flying **** are you talking about????
I suggest you stop reading lousy sewer-like tabloids and other retarded "newspapers" and go to the source directly: the people.
Quiet weaker cousin of France...
Jovan
right... and this explains us falling apart how?
Ushgarak
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
There was NOTHING slightly legal about forcefully separating Kosovo from Serbia. It directly violated UN Charter and resolution 1244.
How is territorial integrity of Gruzia more important than that of Serbia?
You cannot apply territorial integrity to one part of the world, but deny it elsewhere.
America and the satelites violated UN charter when they recognized Kosovo.
None of them have any place to tell Russia it is breaking the law they themselves broke only 6 months ago.
You think it broke that resolution, the majority of significant nations do not. BNor do I; you are simply wrong.
So that's why it is different- there was a large international consensus on Kosovo. There is just Russia trying to bully others with Georgia.
And of course you can apply territorial integrity differently; everything is case by case. Like I say- Serbia lost its case.
They broke no law; Russia is breaking all kinds of laws and will suffer for it.
KidRock
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080828/ap_on_re_eu/georgia
Asian alliance rebuffs Russian plea for support.
That hurts Russia quite a bit in my eyes and can put the West at ease a bit and silence the "WWIII is coming! China/Russia vs The World!" crowd.
jaden101
Originally posted by Ushgarak
You think it broke that resolution, the majority of significant nations do not. BNor do I; you are simply wrong.
So that's why it is different- there was a large international consensus on Kosovo. There is just Russia trying to bully others with Georgia.
And of course you can apply territorial integrity differently; everything is case by case. Like I say- Serbia lost its case.
They broke no law; Russia is breaking all kinds of laws and will suffer for it.
lets not forget that the democratic will of the people of south ossetia is that they want to be joined with the semi autonomous region of north ossetia
don't know about Abkhazia though...
i think some creedence should at least be given to the will of the people that live there.
the fact still remains...it's all about the only gas pipeline coming from kazakstan that isn't under Russian control...and going through a pro western nation....America and Europe want to keep control and by making sure Georgia has control....and Russia want control of it
Strangelove
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
There was NOTHING slightly legal about forcefully separating Kosovo from Serbia. It directly violated UN Charter and resolution 1244.
How is territorial integrity of Gruzia more important than that of Serbia?
You cannot apply territorial integrity to one part of the world, but deny it elsewhere.
America and the satelites violated UN charter when they recognized Kosovo.
None of them have any place to tell Russia it is breaking the law they themselves broke only 6 months ago. Didn't Kosovo declare independence from Serbia last year? And the countries that recognized it only did so after said declaration?
How is that illegal?
Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Strangelove
Didn't Kosovo declare independence from Serbia last year? And the countries that recognized it only did so after said declaration?
How is that illegal?
Abkhazia and South Ossetia declared independence more than a decade ago...
Strangelove
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Abkhazia and South Ossetia declared independence more than a decade ago... well then by god how can Americans, sons of independence all, deny such a thing to these Georgians? If they have legitmate greivances with the Georgian government, I applaud them for their bold decision.
Grand_Moff_Gav
Originally posted by Strangelove
well then by god how can Americans, sons of independence all, deny such a thing to these Georgians? If they have legitmate greivances with the Georgian government, I applaud them for their bold decision.
They're not Georgian- they are oppressed citizens of Russia whom the Georgian government tried to disperse and destroy in the 2008 conflict.
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