Victory Outreach-a cult exploiting the inner city

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Darth Jello
Working in the innercity, I've received constant proselytism and heard many stories about this ministry. Based on everything I've seen and heard, I've concluded the Victory Outreach is a dangerous cult that preys on the poor in order to exploit them financially and in the words of their founder Sonny Arguinzoni, to create and army to take back the cities for christ.

Members are lured when they are recovering from serious problems such as drug addiction and abusive relationships and "sexual confusion" put into group homes wherein they are supervised by unlicensed "youth ministers" and put through a program of biblical study, sleep and food deprivation. Once integrated within the church, they are encouraged to spend all of their time within the church and invest large amounts of money into church programs that would otherwise be free, all the while feeling stigmatized whenever they try to leave or disobey any of the churches activities. Dating is forbidden unless approved by the church and marriage is forbidden until a year of dating. No physical romantic contact including kissing or holding hands is permitted until after marriage and marriage to non-members is forbidden. Their international activities also includes "ministering" to prostitutes in countries such as mexico in ways which can be interpreted as kidnapping foreign nationals. Many of their efforts are especially negatively directed towards jews and homosexuals, exploiting deep rooted prejudices within minority communities. Those that have left the church, including someone i work with have experienced threats, alienation, economic harassment, and malicious litigation by the church.
Their own founder comments on his goals as "spreading to the cities and never leaving" using very militaristic language.
If anyone would like to respond to this or post stories about their own experiences, please tell.

gods girl
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Working in the innercity, I've received constant proselytism and heard many stories about this ministry. Based on everything I've seen and heard, I've concluded the Victory Outreach is a dangerous cult that preys on the poor in order to exploit them financially and in the words of their founder Sonny Arguinzoni, to create and army to take back the cities for christ.

Members are lured when they are recovering from serious problems such as drug addiction and abusive relationships and "sexual confusion" put into group homes wherein they are supervised by unlicensed "youth ministers" and put through a program of biblical study, sleep and food deprivation. Once integrated within the church, they are encouraged to spend all of their time within the church and invest large amounts of money into church programs that would otherwise be free, all the while feeling stigmatized whenever they try to leave or disobey any of the churches activities. Dating is forbidden unless approved by the church and marriage is forbidden until a year of dating. No physical romantic contact including kissing or holding hands is permitted until after marriage and marriage to non-members is forbidden. Their international activities also includes "ministering" to prostitutes in countries such as mexico in ways which can be interpreted as kidnapping foreign nationals. Many of their efforts are especially negatively directed towards jews and homosexuals, exploiting deep rooted prejudices within minority communities. Those that have left the church, including someone i work with have experienced threats, alienation, economic harassment, and malicious litigation by the church.
Their own founder comments on his goals as "spreading to the cities and never leaving" using very militaristic language.
If anyone would like to respond to this or post stories about their own experiences, please tell.

gods girl
yes all that you said is true..i have attended v.o. for a few years and they are self serving and controlling people ..they have a hidden agenda and thats your money and labor there is so much to be said about this group god will expose them one day ...

Robtard
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Members are lured when they are recovering from serious problems such as drug addiction and abusive relationships and "sexual confusion" put into group homes wherein they are supervised by unlicensed "youth ministers" and put through a program of biblical study, sleep and food deprivation.

Religion is often a crutch like abusive drug or alcohol use, they simply know who the easiest targets/easiest to exploit are.

Darth Jello
big difference between religion and cult. There are actual defined differences such as spiritual abuse, legal harrasment, etc.

Robtard
Meh.

drewkeys
everything you have said, SOUNDS really good... and like you know all about our ministry... BUT you forgot to mention... that we HELP the people that most churches turn away... we're not like other ministries, does not mean we're a cult, we happen to know, that we are a unique people, who are use to the corrupt world that is constantly calling us back... so if you ever have a problem about My Church... then you try and reach my family.

Darth Jello
Originally posted by drewkeys
everything you have said, SOUNDS really good... and like you know all about our ministry... BUT you forgot to mention... that we HELP the people that most churches turn away... we're not like other ministries, does not mean we're a cult, we happen to know, that we are a unique people, who are use to the corrupt world that is constantly calling us back... so if you ever have a problem about My Church... then you try and reach my family. Uh, yeah. Tell your "family" to keep their bullshit, their antisemitism, their exploitation, and their homophobia away from vulnerable kids in our town. You don't help people by brain washing and kidnapping.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by drewkeys
everything you have said, SOUNDS really good... and like you know all about our ministry... BUT you forgot to mention... that we HELP the people that most churches turn away... we're not like other ministries, does not mean we're a cult, we happen to know, that we are a unique people, who are use to the corrupt world that is constantly calling us back... so if you ever have a problem about My Church... then you try and reach my family.

What do you mean by "then you try and reach my family"? Is your family gone? How does reaching your family solve any problems that a person may have with your church?

How does the fact you know that you are unique disqualify you from being a cult?

Please tell us more. It is rare to have someone who is actually on the other side of a thread like this one. I guess what I am really saying is that there is no one who knows more about what your organization is other then someone who is there.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What do you mean by "then you try and reach my family"? Is your family gone? How does reaching your family solve any problems that a person may have with your church?

church = family

Making reference to the "church family" is fairly common in Christianity.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
church = family

Making reference to the "church family" is fairly common in Christianity.

I thought that, but the grammar was so bad, that I wasn't sure.

In that case, we should invite any members of that church on to this forum, and answer the thread. I would enjoy the hell out of that. big grin

Wild Shadow
@darth jello

are their any specific examples of their abuse?

i already know churches take ur money, guilt trip you and do their best to run ur life.... and lets be honest inner city churches and out reach center are not the only ones who hate jews can you seriously tell yourself you have never entertained the thought.

and inner city churches hating on gays seriously? that is new to you?
more then half of america hate them as well

AsbestosFlaygon
Is this the cult known as Victory Christian Fellowship? The one founded in Manila?

Yeah, I heard they've been doing outreach programs all over the US. This is just as ****ed up as Scientology.

Darth Jello
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
@darth jello

are their any specific examples of their abuse?

i already know churches take ur money, guilt trip you and do their best to run ur life.... and lets be honest inner city churches and out reach center are not the only ones who hate jews can you seriously tell yourself you have never entertained the thought.

and inner city churches hating on gays seriously? that is new to you?
more then half of america hate them as well

I've seen examples from working in the inner city with co-corpsmembers who got out of the group or were still involved and it was scary. They had to leave every day and work till very late at night doing chores at the mission (they lived in the damn church) and got us in a shitload of trouble for constantly violating federal law by proselytizing people. They showed us slide shows from their missionary trips to South Africa and Mexico where they literally described luring people who were prostitutes or on drugs into a van and locking them in their "missionaries" until they accepted Christ. They were always broke because all of their meager AmeriCorps stipend went to the church. When one of them left the group, she was harassed by others until higher ups stepped in. She even got letters in the mail threatening her by saying the church owned her and would sue her for all her money. At one point, one of them was making a list of everyone she interacted with because VO wanted to know. Like I said, the level of control they keep on these people is what makes them a cult (that and blatant violation of the law, fraud, harassment, worship and canonization of their founder, use of the classic brainwashing techniques, etc.). As I said, the language they use is purely militant, the people they target are victims or gang members or people who are sexually confused or on drugs, and from the things I've heard them say, they are intolerant of others.

As far as I know, it's different than VCF in the Phillipines and I believe it was founded in California. Seriously though, this isn't the only destructive inner city church/cult. Most people don't even know it's a problem and I'm afraid that unchecked and unnoticed this could become a worse problem than gangs be it groups like VO worldwide or local churches building virtual armies etc.

Here's an article form a former member- http://www.apologeticsindex.org/v01.html

Wild Shadow
the only time i heard and thought proselytizing was illegal was in the military where it was against regulations to try and convert ppl...

i'm pretty sure it isnt illegal by civilian laws. maybe if hey forced ppl but i doubt anyone is actually physically detained and if they are it isnt the majority.

i mean if it was i could see this going really bad with the ppl they are recruiting. i mean i could just imagine trying to forcibly convert a gang member going wrong.

calling friends or they themselves killing their captures hell anyone with some basic need to survive can and i would hope would fight/kill their way out. i know i would.

i be all action star and dismantle them from within.

anyways why arent they being close down and sent to jail if they are kidnapping ppl?

you would think the police would just need at least one complaint at its worse maybe two or three b4 they seriously investigate and close them down.

hell the government didnt even have and brought evidence to frame and justify the wako massacre and had presidential pardons.. your telling me the cops cant even muster up a legit investigation and arrest?

Darth Jello
Proselytism is illegal when done during work hours by government employees, corpsmembers, or contractors. It's a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Proselytism is illegal when done during work hours by government employees, corpsmembers, or contractors. It's a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment.

yes, i just said that. i am pretty sure it is not illegal for civilians only to government employees.

Darth Jello
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
yes, i just said that. i am pretty sure it is not illegal for civilians only to government employees. And we weren't private civilians when this was going on, we were corpsmembers. Once you put on the kaki and gray, you're a member of the civil service.

Wild Shadow
the victory outreach ppl are now government employees forcibly recruiting during working hours now?

Darth Jello
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
the victory outreach ppl are now government employees forcibly recruiting during working hours now? Dude, READING COMPREHENSION. Some of the people people in our office and on our crews were either current or former VO and would engage in that shit on the job.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Dude, READING COMPREHENSION. Some of the people people in our office and on our crews were either current or former VO and would engage in that shit on the job.

then they should have bn reported and fired and charged by government laws and regulations.

also i didnt read the part where you were a government employee and ur experience. so....r....ry!!! mad

Darth Jello
When all else fails, read previous posts.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Darth Jello
When all else fails, read previous posts.

i tend to just punch the problem and kick it into hospitalization. it works for me. no expression

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Dude, READING COMPREHENSION. Some of the people people in our office and on our crews were either current or former VO and would engage in that shit on the job.

What is a people people?

Darth Jello
A typo. Or like, people who are real squares.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What is a people people?

obviously the plural form of a people person. stupid! >\

Darth Jello
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
obviously the plural form of a people person. stupid! >\ Yeah, bunghole.

VO4life
First of all in response to white shadow and darth jello. I'm sorry on behalf of my ministry VO. For in anyway offending you both. But I have been a part of this ministry for over 20 years. I have served from a regular member to a leader and never I repeat never has our ministry in any way been under investigation for these silly accusations such as KIDNAPPINS! Stop it. Please your remarks are as extreme as the allegations you are bringing against the Church that has literally helped 4 generations of hurting people in my family. Please let us reason with one another. Before such harmful allegations. Your friend in Christ . VO 4 Life

Quiero Mota
The next Jonestown/Heaven's Gate incident is gonna be caused by an organiztion like VO. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was VO itself.

About that mega-church nutcase in the Phillipines who claims to be Jesus incarnate; I wonder if he honestly believes he's god or if he's just a lying con artist putting on a show. And even then, I can't decide which is worse.

ADarksideJedi
When I was younger my family belong to a cult which is called the People of hope I am so glad I am out of it since I was twelve!

King Castle
you can be taken out of the cult but the cult cant be taken out of you

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
When I was younger my family belong to a cult which is called the People of hope I am so glad I am out of it since I was twelve!

I was a member of a cult too. I was raised in a cult until I was in my 20's. The name of the cult was Baptists. wink

ADarksideJedi
That is true there are some stuff that I use to do even after we leave the cult.The cult however Shakyamunison was called the People of Hope and it is in NJ and is known for its brainwashing and stealing people's money.

bettymrc
bettymrc I have been informed that in a victory outreach womans rehab. if a woman deceides to leave, she has to make her own way to safety;and in no uncertain terms that she is escorted form the rehab to safety';one case was a woman who came from another country desired to leave a rehab home in ireland, the rehab was situated in the country side and the young woman left and there was no record of her getting to a safe place;

Bardock42
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
obviously the plural form of a people person. stupid! >\

And the hyper plural of person person

alexdigital
I went to V.O, when I felt lost. I found that they took adavantage of me in every way possible. From the free rides to labor to money they are a cult to say the least. I went on a trip to the beach where they were supposed to burn everything that was "worldly" to them. I loaded my van with about 6 huge tables and supplies and drove to the beach at 9am, they are slavedrivers not followers of Christ.. After 7 or 8 hours they still refused to feed us, I had to borrow money to eat, and I shared with my fellow starving slaves. They knew I had a sleeping -disorder, but when I asked to leave they acted like a-holes. They all are a bunch of fools and losers who think they can free-stlye flow. Oh ya, they sink so low as to try and infiltrate all the young or knew cool people by way of mind control. They are nice to certain people so that they might join and recruit their friends.I'v heard them talk wierd things, they are very controling. I was really trying to fing god and do my mission to spread the gospel until christ returns. V.O. exploits people,the administration know's who they are. Its a business, they wont truly help you. They wont baptize people unless you pay them enough money.

Mindship
Originally posted by drewkeys
... we're not like other ministries...we happen to know, that we are a unique people... How are you different?

ADarksideJedi
This is pretty scary stuff.

pcp_counselor
Lets assume Victory Outreach is really bad. Can you also assume that there are caring persons in the same bunch? Can there be good and evil in the same church? Can their be controlling leaders and mature spiritual leaders in the same church? Everything I read here is black and white thinking, but nothing in between. I think it was to God's girl in the topix thread ( a few years back). VO is not perfect.
If you find a perfect church then call me so we can tell others. During my years as a Christian I have friends that are Baptist, Pentecostal, Nazarene, Mennonite pastors, and a few others. Each pastor would tell me how dsyfunctional their peers were. I have talked to VO pastors who agree their needs to be alot of growing up within the VO church.
Now what? Assume they stop being controlling? Assume they stop talking with a military tone. Would you all join VO? The topic of homosexuality is not exclusive to VO. And that topic is a topic all within its own right. Here is a piece to chew on. In the Bible when Christ went to a wedding did he go to a hetrosexual wedding or gay wedding? In the book of John when Christ is talking about heaven and how he will return, he is using words associated with marriage. The church is called the bride of Christ because Christ himself used that image.
Back track a little to Genesis - Jewish history - The people wanted to be united (one) with God. Hebrew word for one is echad.
God is one (echad), in a wedding two become one(echad) flesh. Adam and Eve felt no shame when they were echad. Naked, to be real, to be accepted unconditionally is echad union with God. Jesus affirms marriage in Luke "the people of this age marry and are given in marriage. In Matthew 19 Jesus affirms the echad that is first mentioned in Genesis "What God has joined together let no one seperate". Wedding celebrations for the married couple consists of sex and food(dinner). In the book of Revelations the world ends with a dinner to celebrate Christ and his spiritual bride (the church). The Jewish readers knew this echad language, knew how they celebrated a wedding; celebration of echad. Christ knew a man and a woman were to marry, there for Christ knew and affirmed what God had echad in Genesis. I hope that gives you some thoughts. If you hate this message, don't hate the messenger, but the author.
Kind thoughts to everyone that was mistreated by any church.

angelistik
I'm disappointed to see so much "VO" bashing going on. My dad is a Pastor in victory outreach and my personal experience easiliy refutes every negative thing stated in this post. My Dad has given more of his time and money to the church than anyone else I know. He never complains but exemplifies the sacrificial love of Christ when it comes to giving in any way. In every church there are going to be some who have negative experiences but that cannot be said for every individual. There will never be a perfect church. No matter where you go there will be something or someone you disagree with based upon your upbringing and personal convictions.

I say, instead of bashing on other believers and churches lets encourage the good they're doing and win the world together for Christ! The enemy wants us all divided. Lets not give him such an easy victory!

King Castle
see, you had me up to the win the world together for christ..

i actually agreed, till then.

King Kandy
Originally posted by angelistik
I'm disappointed to see so much "VO" bashing going on. My dad is a Pastor in victory outreach and my personal experience easiliy refutes every negative thing stated in this post. My Dad has given more of his time and money to the church than anyone else I know. He never complains but exemplifies the sacrificial love of Christ when it comes to giving in any way. In every church there are going to be some who have negative experiences but that cannot be said for every individual. There will never be a perfect church. No matter where you go there will be something or someone you disagree with based upon your upbringing and personal convictions.

I say, instead of bashing on other believers and churches lets encourage the good they're doing and win the world together for Christ! The enemy wants us all divided. Lets not give him such an easy victory!
Yes, with this post you have completely dispelled the perception that Victory Outreach members are brainwashed and in no way have in fact perpetuated it by blatantly disregarding all testimony outside your personal experience.

skekUng
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Based on everything I've seen and heard, I've concluded the Victory Outreach is a dangerous cult that preys on the poor in order to exploit them financially

Sounds like pretty much every religious group I've encountered.

skekUng
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
The next Jonestown/Heaven's Gate incident is gonna be caused by an organiztion like VO. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was VO itself.

About that mega-church nutcase in the Phillipines who claims to be Jesus incarnate; I wonder if he honestly believes he's god or if he's just a lying con artist putting on a show. And even then, I can't decide which is worse.

Isn't there a guy in Miami who claims the same thing?

Weren't there a dozen or so people running around the holy land claiming they were the messiah when Jesus was doing it?

The MISTER
Originally posted by skekUng
Sounds like pretty much every religious group I've encountered. Yes especially the ones called missionaries. These vile groups actually travel to third world countries and provide teachers and doctors to impoverished communities. The threat of death doesn't deter these zealots from their mission to exploit the weak. True scum of the earth. roll eyes (sarcastic)

skekUng
Originally posted by The MISTER
Yes especially the ones called missionaries. These vile groups actually travel to third world countries and provide teachers and doctors to impoverished communities. The threat of death doesn't deter these zealots from their mission to exploit the weak. True scum of the earth. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Those doctors and teachers come at the expense of their native cultures and religions. It's all about getting butts in the pew.

"We're here to help you dig a well and treat your children's malaria! Oh, and while we bring our first world knowledge to your third world culture, have you ever heard of Jesus Christ?"

King Kandy
Originally posted by The MISTER
Yes especially the ones called missionaries. These vile groups actually travel to third world countries and provide teachers and doctors to impoverished communities. The threat of death doesn't deter these zealots from their mission to exploit the weak. True scum of the earth. roll eyes (sarcastic)
Yeah, and that's all they do, amirite?

The MISTER
Originally posted by skekUng
Those doctors and teachers come at the expense of their native cultures and religions. It's all about getting butts in the pew.

"We're here to help you dig a well and treat your children's malaria! Oh, and while we bring our first world knowledge to your third world culture, have you ever heard of Jesus Christ?" I thought you just stated that it was about preying on the poor and exploiting them financially. Now you're pointing out the evils of digging wells, curing malaria in children, and sharing a message of hope that you sincerely believe. SAD.

The MISTER
Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, and that's all they do, amirite?

Of course not. Realistically though I believe most of them are sincere in their desire to help others. A good example to use is doctors that are in it for the money only shouldn't represent all doctors.

Some people believe doctors are all evil opportunists. I think that most of them are heroes.

skekUng
Originally posted by The MISTER
I thought you just stated that it was about preying on the poor and exploiting them financially. Now you're pointing out the evils of digging wells, curing malaria in children, and sharing a message of hope that you sincerely believe. SAD.

It is sad. Didn't I point out that you do expect a paycheck, in this life or the next one? Yeah, you are the easiest people in the world to see through.

They are dying. You should be ashamed of yourselves if you see your desire to extend charity as an opportunity to rob them of their culture and religion and make you feel better about your religious choices by getting them to agree with you for clean water and medicine.

King Kandy
Originally posted by The MISTER
Of course not. Realistically though I believe most of them are sincere in their desire to help others. A good example to use is doctors that are in it for the money only shouldn't represent all doctors.

Some people believe doctors are all evil opportunists. I think that most of them are heroes.
I think if they were really heroes, they should be building wells without feeling like they need to earn spiritual brownie points by converting people.

The MISTER
Originally posted by King Kandy
I think if they were really heroes, they should be building wells without feeling like they need to earn spiritual brownie points by converting people. You're suggesting that they are missionaries who really don't care about the people that they're working with. You really believe that most of the missionaries that travel abroad to war torn countries have sinister motives? They likely believe that they are NOT hurting people when they are sharing their beliefs, but helping them. Also the physical assistance that they give is not withheld from those that don't accept their religious beliefs. If that does ever happen I'm sure that it's not the norm, just that there are always exceptions from the norm. Sorta like how pit bulls are not truly vicious killers but the exceptions are all we hear about. Most missionaries hearts desire seems to be passionate about helping people in whatever way they can. Just like most pit bulls are good dogs.

King Kandy
Originally posted by The MISTER
You're suggesting that they are missionaries who really don't care about the people that they're working with. You really believe that most of the missionaries that travel abroad to war torn countries have sinister motives? They likely believe that they are NOT hurting people when they are sharing their beliefs, but helping them. Also the physical assistance that they give is not withheld from those that don't accept their religious beliefs. If that does ever happen I'm sure that it's not the norm, just that there are always exceptions from the norm. Sorta like how pit bulls are not truly vicious killers but the exceptions are all we hear about. Most missionaries hearts desire seems to be passionate about helping people in whatever way they can. Just like most pit bulls are good dogs.
I never said they had a sinister motive, at all. They believe that they are "helping" people, in two ways: they do good works to help their lives get better, and they give them eternal life by converting them. You want to completely emphasize the positive effects of the former while ignoring the negative effects of the latter.

The MISTER
Originally posted by King Kandy
I never said they had a sinister motive, at all. They believe that they are "helping" people, in two ways: they do good works to help their lives get better, and they give them eternal life by converting them. You want to completely emphasize the positive effects of the former while ignoring the negative effects of the latter. I can't see the negative effects of the latter since I believe that they are telling them the truth about the teachings of Jesus. I'm not ignoring that some missionaries may only have their personal glory in mind and are attempting to "win" souls like a badge of honor. I actually started talking about missionaries because most are not preying on the finances of the poor, and someone posted that every religious group that they knew of did. The Victory Outreach place and many other religious groups may prey on people.....but certainly not all of them.

skekUng
Have you ever heard the joke about the CNN reporter that heard about an old Jew that went to pray at the wailing wall, every day, at the same time, for 40 years? She thought it was interesting and waited for him the next day, at the given time. She asked him what he was praying for and if he thought God would answer it. He responded that he prayed for world peace and that he was starting to feel like he was talking to a ****ing wall.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by The MISTER
I can't see the negative effects of the latter since I believe that they are telling them the truth about the teachings of Jesus. I'm not ignoring that some missionaries may only have their personal glory in mind and are attempting to "win" souls like a badge of honor. I actually started talking about missionaries because most are not preying on the finances of the poor, and someone posted that every religious group that they knew of did. The Victory Outreach place and many other religious groups may prey on people.....but certainly not all of them.

It doesn't have to be all of them for it to be a problem.

If Alice exploits 99 people and happens to help 1 person along the way she's still a monster. A smattering of good acts doesn't make up for systematic abuse.

The MISTER
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It doesn't have to be all of them for it to be a problem.

If Alice exploits 99 people and happens to help 1 person along the way she's still a monster. A smattering of good acts doesn't make up for systematic abuse. I used missionaries as an example because they are usually sincere. They help more people than they exploit. As far as churches go I believe it is hit or miss concerning the leaders sincerity. Exploitation is likely the goal of LESS religious groups, not more. The reality is that the ones that do negative things get far more attention. smokin'

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by The MISTER
I used missionaries as an example because they are usually sincere.

You can sincerely want to help someone and do them a great deal of harm. That's part of the reason controversies exist about "Good Samaritan" laws that protect people who act with good intention even if they happen to needlessly cripple someone.

Originally posted by The MISTER
They help more people than they exploit. As far as churches go I believe it is hit or miss concerning the leaders sincerity. Exploitation is likely the goal of LESS religious groups, not more.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if religious charities and missions did more good than bad on the whole. However we're not talking about the generic case, we're talking about the specific case of Victory Outreach.

Originally posted by The MISTER
The reality is that the ones that do negative things get far more attention.

Absolutely but keep in mind that this is true of almost everything. You have to do something mindblowingly good to get attention.

EZEKNOWS
When I was 'busted and disgusted' in Puerto Rico a friend made a call to Pastor Sonny and two days later Victory Outreach picked me up at LAX and sooner than later, things changed, I changed. No, it wasn't over night. After getting on my feet I relapsed BUT there they were again, lifting me up and sent me to Phoenix and during my struggles they were ALWAYS there. Their patience and their instilled God's love paid off. I've been clean for many years. No, the rehabs are not perfect. Many times "staff" members are other clients with some love and potential getting on their feet as well. They have little or practically nor formal preparation, just the willingness to do good after many years of causing heartache and suffering upon themselves, their loved ones and... their victims. Yes, they lack professionalism, I did, I'll readily admit. There aren't enough finances to to hire professionals in most V.O. rehabs. Is it better to just close down. Throw them all back into the street? Back to hungar, drugs, despair, prostitution, deseases and epidemics, crime, abuse.. Or... feed and harbor them, even though the rehabs, directors or untrained "staff" are either still growing or lacking experience and professionalism. I've been living a clean and sober life for over 20 years than to the fundamentals instilled in me at Victory Outreach. I didn't agree with all the rules and rehab doctrines. I knew that some of the untrained "staff" were more like crude "trusties" still dealing with their own problems. But that's all the rehab had, the ones that could be somewhat trusted. When my time came. I was honored that someone would deposit trust in me again. It was the beginning of the my journey back to where I belonged. I've been working in rehab here in Puerto Rico for the last 20 years. During that time I was rearrested for a parole violation of crime I committed many years before, before I entered Victory Outreach. While incarcerated I maintained my values. Those inmates that knew the "old negative me" saw something different. I was well respected in the past but now I earned a different respect, one of true quality. even by the prison guards that at first expected nothing but headaches and problems. I had to once again adapt to "jailing it" but I handled myself like I learned to do in Victory Outreach. I was named by the prison population as the head of "El Comite", a inmate commitee that negotiated prison disturbances and conditions with the institution's warden and officials. God blessed my faithfulness and the Parole Board reinstated my parole priviledge. Thank you Pastor Sonny, Pastor Phillip LaCrue, Pastor Charlie, Cathy and son Fred and his wife, the late Pastor Saul, Bob Hernandez.. thank you all for caring about me when I didn't care about myself. And a SPECIAL THANKS to all those untrained "staff" residents and for your very important role in 'sharpening' my endurance. Without you guys it wouldn't have been possible. God Bless you ALL

King Kandy
Reminds me of the rehab from "A Scanner Darkly".

WomenofGod
It was interesting to read all the post about Victory Outreach, and those that did attend VO and had something negative to say, they always are ready to bash when they fell short. We as christians in VO, we have free will and chose to attend a unique church, one that understands the "black sheep", the unloveable one, the down and out, the ones that other churches dont want to reach out to. I came to VO through a violent relationship, with 2 son's with me a single mom ready to give up and feared the man who was chasing me. My church family took me in and I had nothing! They protected me, they provided food for me and my children when needed, and never asked me for a dime! Now if your refering to us paying out tithes and offerings, thats the Word of God out of the Bible, not something the ministry thought up! We are unique in many ways, and we lay our life down for God, not people, everything is taught out of the word of God, its called the truth! We dont bash other churches, we unite with them to help the lost. I understand the ignorance from unsaved people, and its our responsibility to share the Word of God, and His faithfulness in our lives. Cults command and treat you like property, never ever does VO do that! And as for the homes, you come in by choice, or court order, either way its still your choice! And the door is always open for you to leave when your ready, nor do we ask for finances to be there! Its a free program, and by faith is how they live for bills to be paid, and food to come into the home to feed them. So if your looking for a reason to hate us, well its just going to be your misfed information on us, or lack of getting to really know who we are and who we stand for. Those that feel the world owe them, they have a pity party, and use VO as a escape from prison and dont want to be there, of course they are going to have something negative to say. But never ever have you ever heard anything negative about our founder, Pastor Sonny lives by faith, and I have learned to live by faith and many miracles have happened within my family. Dont judge VO by what "you think", you need to WANT to know God and be closer to Him to understand how we go out and feed the homeless, we go out and reach the children who feel unloved and are being abused, how we help the drug addict, and the alcoholic, the prostitute and so on. We do it out of love, because that is what we are called to do!

Oliver North
Originally posted by WomenofGod
I understand the ignorance from unsaved people

shortest self-refuting statement ever?

Astner
Originally posted by Oliver North
shortest self-refuting statement ever?
Dismissive? Sure. Self-refuting? No.

Oliver North
meh, I don't think so, but its semantics anyways

Digi
Probably on the payroll, in any case. Who else makes an account to bump a dead thread with poor grammar? The exact same thing happened a page ago, and the person never posted again.

Oliver North
Originally posted by Digi
Probably on the payroll, in any case. Who else makes an account to bump a dead thread with poor grammar? The exact same thing happened a page ago, and the person never posted again.

on the payroll?

I get what you are saying, but could they really misunderstand the internet so much to feel they need to post on a dead topic on a not-too-frequented board? Like, if nothing else, this draws more attention to the criticisms than the defense.

Digi
Originally posted by Oliver North
on the payroll?

I get what you are saying, but could they really misunderstand the internet so much to feel they need to post on a dead topic on a not-too-frequented board? Like, if nothing else, this draws more attention to the criticisms than the defense.

It has the characteristics of an advertisement spammer, is all I'm saying. A single post before disappearing, poor grammar, and in ridiculous endorsement of a single entity or product.

Because, yeah, it probably brings more attention criticism. But that would be some meta-level critique to post ringing endorsements for the opposite purpose.

The fact that it's been repeated (see last page) is further proof. It's not a sock, and they wouldn't bother to mask their IP, so that means that there have been two people who made accounts to post near-identical (in tone and form) endorsements of the same thread. To me, the most likely assumption is that it's something the company has done, but with a horrible understanding of how internet marketing actually works.

Oliver North
oh, I'm not saying you are wrong, it is just a very strange tactic.

Basically just saying, it looks like VO doesn't understand the medium.

Digi
Agreed. Though to me, it's not terribly surprising tbh. We're here so often, and I assume on other sites, that internet interaction is second nature to us. We take for granted what large swaths of the population haven't learned.

Because it's not that different than the other ad spammers on KMC or any other site. They're just as deluded about the gullibility of their audience. Clearly someone at a lot of companies thinks it's working...or, worse, it IS working on those who haven't savvied up yet.

pcp_counselor
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What do you mean by "then you try and reach my family"? Is your family gone? How does reaching your family solve any problems that a person may have with your church?

How does the fact you know that you are unique disqualify you from being a cult?

Please tell us more. It is rare to have someone who is actually on the other side of a thread like this one. I guess what I am really saying is that there is no one who knows more about what your organization is other then someone who is there.

Are you trying to help him, help others or looking for an argument? He was open about his family's condition which is more than I have seen others post. If your attitude is that you dont care about his family or the needs of addicts then why would you post? Do you care about helping people out of destructive organizations? If so then post answers and solutions. With all respect are you writing out of anger?

I can tell you why he made his comment, it is clear to me and to most that check thier own bias. Do you allow your bias to bleed on the internet? Keep this conversation without name calling. From his response his family is having troubles and VO is available to help, if your not available to help then dont stop those that are willing. That was the core of his message.

pcp_counselor
Originally posted by bettymrc
bettymrc I have been informed that in a victory outreach womans rehab. if a woman deceides to leave, she has to make her own way to safety;and in no uncertain terms that she is escorted form the rehab to safety';one case was a woman who came from another country desired to leave a rehab home in ireland, the rehab was situated in the country side and the young woman left and there was no record of her getting to a safe place;

This is a tough situation to be, how was she supposed to leave? How did she arrive? What are the legal responsibilities of an organization in that nation/region? There's many questions that can be brought up, and without more information how can an accusation or verdit be made? Was thier vehicle/car broken? Was the telephone working? Was there a local police station or public social service that assist? Did VO make phone calls? Did she leave in the morning or middle of the night? How can we make a judgment with limited information? Was she sober? Was she violent? Was she mentally ill? Was she talking medications? What efforts did VO make before they exhausted resources? What do we really know? Its easy to judge on our bias.

pcp_counselor
Originally posted by King Kandy
Yes, with this post you have completely dispelled the perception that Victory Outreach members are brainwashed and in no way have in fact perpetuated it by blatantly disregarding all testimony outside your personal experience.
By the way who is brainwashed and who is not? What criteria are you using for a cult? A psychological critierias to explain a cult does not line up with an orthodox historical theological critieria. You may not even know the difference. Define cult and then state under what discipline it is catergorized in, a sociological cult? a psychological cult, a Christian cult, a non Christian cult? Do you have the knowledge of systematic theology to discern and interpret the difference?

From the company you keep I expect you to respond with name calling and provide no scientific evidence to support your claims.
It is easy to say "your dumb" or "your weak" or any other name caling. But a scholar will provide an intelligent conversation. Please dont respond with circular reasoning such as "your a cult because I say so". You accuse others of disregarding "all testimony". The testimony you choose to disregard is in front of you.

voutc
Ok here it goes in illiterate I use spell check in so not perfect I wish I sounded half as smart as u guys do no periods commas nothing but I will say something y'all like to investigate soo much here's a challenge for you one year no I've heard none of that good stuff but I've experienced for myself go to our church without a prejudice mindset from what you think you know or heard don't live off others opinions live off you're own and if we seen like the type that wear sheets ok cool all on you but if not what's the worse that can happen maybe a year was to much try a month faithfully with an open heart don't give money ur not ready for that but listen watch get to know people then come back and talk about it!! Man you guys truly sound smart on here and obviously are concerned about this this is a god honest message not putting no one down jus an attempt to get my church an equal opportunity!!

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by voutc
Ok here it goes in illiterate I use spell check in so not perfect I wish I sounded half as smart as u guys do no periods commas nothing but I will say something y'all like to investigate soo much here's a challenge for you one year no I've heard none of that good stuff but I've experienced for myself go to our church without a prejudice mindset from what you think you know or heard don't live off others opinions live off you're own and if we seen like the type that wear sheets ok cool all on you but if not what's the worse that can happen maybe a year was to much try a month faithfully with an open heart don't give money ur not ready for that but listen watch get to know people then come back and talk about it!! Man you guys truly sound smart on here and obviously are concerned about this this is a god honest message not putting no one down jus an attempt to get my church an equal opportunity!!

What you are saying is, check it out for yourself before you judge. Fair enough.

voutc
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What you are saying is, check it out for yourself before you judge. Fair enough. yes that's it you probably have heard its funny I graduated from a rehab and also our UTC before married in active in the church totally and faithfully committed can't say I'm brainwashed I make my own choices in regards to like alot of the money giving thing I gave thousands of dollars to my drug dealer before so at least now Il put it to a place I believe in right but I'm not arguing in jus a person that wants to answer some questions in glad for people asking questions I'd gladly answer best to my knowledge no one will shut me up from our church cause there's nothing to hide!!

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by voutc
yes that's it you probably have heard its funny I graduated from a rehab and also our UTC before married in active in the church totally and faithfully committed can't say I'm brainwashed I make my own choices in regards to like alot of the money giving thing I gave thousands of dollars to my drug dealer before so at least now Il put it to a place I believe in right but I'm not arguing in jus a person that wants to answer some questions in glad for people asking questions I'd gladly answer best to my knowledge no one will shut me up from our church cause there's nothing to hide!!

Don't get too exited, and tell us more about yourself then about your religion. You see, we all have our own religion, but there is only one of you.

Lord Lucien
My religion is the religion of believing in every religion. It's like the Superman of religions.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
My religion is the religion of believing in every religion. It's like the Superman of religions.

That would make you an ant-atheist. laughing out loud

Lord Lucien
Which is appropriate, since I can lift 10x my own body weight. Also I communicate with pheromones and telepathy.

voutc
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Don't get too exited, and tell us more about yourself then about your religion. You see, we all have our own religion, but there is only one of you. ok so I guess u can say I got the same m.o. As most Vo testimonies drugs gangs etc.etc. My church doesn't ever demands they challenge me to be step out and believe put my trust in God its like exercise u can't get result if you don't work out its funny to me how people come into our houses living on the streets stealing addicted and you know wat you are getn into they tell you as soon as you walk in the door this is one year very intense all the rules wat u can't do if you agree then good if not ok come back when ur ready most programs you have to pay to get into and still getn treated intensely the staff in some places are there cause they are paid they don't care most of the time same with counselrs paid staff almost the same as prison and they take ur money no follow up when ur out jus good luck go to meetings na aa there concept is once a drug addict always a drug addict so basically they are instilling in you ur always gonna be no good we live by a different concept the bible we read and believe says when Jesus takes over all ur past is done all things are new u are a new this gave me a sense of hope and belonging I can make it not I'm sober jus for today Na,Aa is good though it has helped so many in our mission statement it clearly states we work together with people in common goal as our reach a hurting world the best way we can not we are the best to me we are the best to some something else we don't believe in rivals the only rival we should have is ourselves beat our old self daily strive to be better as humans we understand we are unperfect always will but its the fight the struggle dat we all must deal with!!

Shakyamunison
^ roll eyes (sarcastic)

I'm glad your religion is doing good for the community. However, please take a little more time to edit your writing.

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