Was the Empire really that bad?

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Null ARC Avis
Aside from the whole "We'll blow up your planet!!!!" thing, was the empire truly awful? The actions of the emperor and Vader effected very few being really, and the empire did maintain order, generally, and we much more productive than the corrupt republic. So i wonder, was the empire truly an oppressive regime, or was thata just rebel propaganda?

Gideon
Based on collective evidence, the Empire -- as a whole -- was just incredibly strict. Taxation and such increased dramatically, but most people who minded their own business wouldn't see the business end of a lightsaber or blaster. It should be noted that Palpatine was extraordinarily popular and, for the most part, so was the Empire. The public would blame their less-than-hospitable actions on icons of fear like Tarkin and Vader, but wouldn't associate the Empire's war crimes with Palpatine himself.

Darth Exodus
I read somewhere that the Empire was oppressive towards aliens on account of Palpatine being a huge gay racist. Supposedly there were laws against them that essentially made them second class citizens.

Hmmm, that sounds familiar.....

Gideon
Aliens are the minority of the galaxy. Reading comprehension helps, of course: "the Empire -- as a whole -- was just incredibly strict." Of course you have lunatic bigots like Sate Pestage, Ars Dangor, Kinman Doriana and such influencing Imperial High Culture, but, as I say, the Empire remained popular throughout much of its reign. How the hell else do you think it lasted for twenty-something years?

truejedi
Don't forget Kashyyk, the home world of the Noghri, Byss, Alderaan, etc.
The empire was not truly just either, strictly or otherwise. (remember Tattoine? the jawa's were completely innocent) The empire was also corrupt, allowing crime lords like hutt and Xizor to operate as long as they paid the right people.

Gideon
Originally posted by truejedi
Don't forget Kashyyk, the home world of the Noghri, Byss, Alderaan, etc.
The empire was not truly just either, strictly or otherwise. (remember Tattoine? the jawa's were completely innocent) The empire was also corrupt, allowing crime lords like hutt and Xizor to operate as long as they paid the right people.

No one is trying to romanticise the Empire or say that they were misunderstood. Palpatine and most of Imperial High Command were easily the greatest collective of corrupt, evil men in galactic history. But the Empire wasn't "LOLZ GRR BLOW UP TEH PLANET" rash like Tarkin. The Empire itself, as a whole, was extremely subtle and remained highly popular. Byss itself was testament to the Emperor's subtlelty. You only named two planets out of millions.

Was the Empire evil? Sure. Were they blatantly so, as a whole? Well hardly.

Tangible God
Note too that it wasn't until Alderaan that many denizens began to question the Empire.

Gideon
Originally posted by Tangible God
Note too that it wasn't until Alderaan that many denizens began to question the Empire.

Exactly. By the way, Tangible, see my Project Holocron thread. If you're interested, I would like you to be involved.

Lightsnake
The majority were happy, sure. But then that's like Nazi Germany-willing to pretend they don't know what happens to those who were undesirable.

The Empire's policies exterminated many species, forced numerous others to extinction...yeah, the overwhelming popularity is kind of obvious: Plenty human were happy and prosperous.

Again, just like Germany in the 30s-40s

Tangible God
Exactly.

sweersa
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The majority were happy, sure. But then that's like Nazi Germany-willing to pretend they don't know what happens to those who were undesirable.

The Empire's policies exterminated many species, forced numerous others to extinction...yeah, the overwhelming popularity is kind of obvious: Plenty human were happy and prosperous.

Again, just like Germany in the 30s-40s

Don't assume the Empire slaughtered other species besides humans, the reason you see a majority of Humans in the Empire is becuase the time, and funds during the making of the OT didn't allow for non-human Imperial forces.

That is also why you see a lot of Human rebels also, ROTJ is a slight exception with the Bothans and Calamari.

Never in the movies did they talk about exterminating non-human beings...this would serve no purpose...in fact look at the senate, so many aliens, to kill them all would make no sense and would be very expensive and time consuming.

Also, if this was true wouldn't almost every alien be on the side of the Rebels?

Tangible God
Originally posted by sweersa
Don't assume the Empire slaughtered other species besides humans, the reason you see a majority of Humans in the Empire is becuase the time, and funds during the making of the OT didn't allow for non-human Imperial forces.

That is also why you see a lot of Human rebels also, ROTJ is a slight exception with the Bothans and Calamari.

Never in the movies did they talk about exterminating non-human beings...this would serve no purpose...in fact look at the senate, so many aliens, to kill them all would make no sense and would be very expensive and time consuming.

Also, if this was true wouldn't almost every alien be on the side of the Rebels? All true, but this is EU. We need not worry about queeq killing the thread if something other than movie-making factors is considered.

Lt. Valerian
Actually, after reading Allegiance, I started thinkng about this, as well. The Empire, as a whole, as Gideon said, was not really evil. At least not before the destruction of Alderaan. The main characters in the book were stormtroopers who only joined the Empire with the sole purpose of helping others. Aiding people in need. They believed the Empire was righteous and just, until they started to become suspicious when their superiors began doing things which were not exactly noble, or even 'legal', and began questioning the Empire's motives. Probably the Empire's high ranking officers kept lower ranking ones, like stormtroopers and such, in the dark, making them believe the Empire was something it was not.
I assume many of the Empire's soldiers, pilots, etc. eventually left the Empire (or at least tried), after the destruction of Alderaan.

sweersa
Originally posted by Tangible God
All true, but this is EU. We need not worry about queeq killing the thread if something other than movie-making factors is considered.

Yeah...the EU is whacked sometimes.

MasterAshenVor
Ok 3 Things...

1 - The Empire are like Nazi's or Communists anyone who they even SUSPECT of being sympathetic to the Alliance or a Threat they ELIMINATE them from existance, Innocent or Not....with no trial and usually the Trials were Corrupt and one sided.

2nd - HAS ANYONE FORGOTTEN THE HUGE CELEBRATION ON COURASANT WHEN PALPATINE AND VADER WERE KILLED o.o and if you notice THEY PULLED DOWN THE STATUE OF PALPATINE infront of his Office.

3rd - Do you not understand that they destroyed Alderaan and all of itts Inhabitants innocent WEMON , CHILDREN , OLD PEOPLE , Men ect. plus without the Death Star they used Star Destroyers and TIE BOMBERS to bomb a civilization into Submission if it showed even a slight bit of Indapendance.

OH YEA and a 4th point.... THEY TORTURED PEOPLE and Killed Luke's Ant and Uncle o.o Brutality , Torture , Genocide , Slave Labor (The Wookies) , Emperialistic = Forcing other planets to side with them.

Now lets talk about the Rebel Alliance and the New Republic

4 points again ill do cons and pros for both actually.

New Republic - PRO's - Diplomatic Society , Freedom , Hired Labor , Volunteer Enlisted Soldiers , Liberators , Senate and Court Trials for Law Breakers , Helps Allies in Wars when possiable , Deosent Force Star Systems to join them.

New Republic - Cons - Corrupt Goverment - An Occasional Psychopath like Jacen Solo , and sometimes it lies but usually for the best interest of the General Population 1 Wrong 1000 Lives Saved

EMPIRE - Pro's - Efficent Governing , Cracks Down on Criminals and Smugglers , Large and Powerful Military thats all i can think of if there are other good things let me know o.o .

EMPIRE - Cons - Slave Labor , Conscription for Armies , Forced Alliances , Dictatorship , Cruelty and Concentration Camps for Aliens , Genocide , Forced Submission , Biased Trials , Corrupted Judges (if the convict even gets a trial) , Torture , They dont care if one of their men dies , Abandonment of Soldiers on Battlefield , Crappy Armor , Horriable Training for Soldiers (NEED TO AIM) , Crappy Non-Shielded Starships with minimum Weaponry (exception for Tie Defender and Tie Bomber) , OH AND GOT OWNED BY A MUCH SMALLER REBEL FORCE o.o.



SO OVERALL ILL GO WITH THE REPUBLIC AND REBEL ALLIANCE ANYTIME big grin

LONG LIVE THE ALLIANCE , LONG LIVE RED SQUADRON , LONG LIVE FREEDOM!!

NonSensi-Klown
The New Republic also failed utterly to protect it's planets from the Vong, and lost trillions of innocent people.

*shrug*

MasterAshenVor
We are not questioning the Stormtrooper's Actions tho...WE ARE QUESTIONING THE GOVERMENT AND MOTIVES OF THE LEADERS OF THE EMPIRE and the Empire Itself.

MasterAshenVor
Sweersa...How the Heck did you come to that conclusion....DONT YOU REMEMBER TARKIN saying "You no longer need to worry about the Imperial Senate the last remnants of the Old Republic have been *SWEPT AWAY* and the Regional Govenors have full control of their Territories" What the heck do you think he means by SWEPT AWAY they fricken KILLED THEM ALL maby not marched into the Senate Building and shot them all but im guessing the Emperor had them Poisoned or some of them had a Mysterious Airspeeder Wreck outside their apartments.

MasterAshenVor
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
The New Republic also failed utterly to protect it's planets from the Vong, and lost trillions of innocent people.

*shrug*

Sir...If they had FAILED UTTERLY there would not be any books from the Legacy of the Force or Legacy Comic Books now would there?


They Made a Peace with the Vong and Got their Planets Back....They had Set backs but it was not a failure....Failure is when you lose the war not a few battles.

sweersa
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Ok 3 Things...

1 - The Empire are like Nazi's or Communists anyone who they even SUSPECT of being sympathetic to the Alliance or a Threat they ELIMINATE them from existance, Innocent or Not....with no trial and usually the Trials were Corrupt and one sided.

2nd - HAS ANYONE FORGOTTEN THE HUGE CELEBRATION ON COURASANT WHEN PALPATINE AND VADER WERE KILLED o.o and if you notice THEY PULLED DOWN THE STATUE OF PALPATINE infront of his Office.

3rd - Do you not understand that they destroyed Alderaan and all of itts Inhabitants innocent WEMON , CHILDREN , OLD PEOPLE , Men ect. plus without the Death Star they used Star Destroyers and TIE BOMBERS to bomb a civilization into Submission if it showed even a slight bit of Indapendance.

OH YEA and a 4th point.... THEY TORTURED PEOPLE and Killed Luke's Ant and Uncle o.o Brutality , Torture , Genocide , Slave Labor (The Wookies) , Emperialistic = Forcing other planets to side with them.

Now lets talk about the Rebel Alliance and the New Republic

4 points again ill do cons and pros for both actually.

New Republic - PRO's - Diplomatic Society , Freedom , Hired Labor , Volunteer Enlisted Soldiers , Liberators , Senate and Court Trials for Law Breakers , Helps Allies in Wars when possiable , Deosent Force Star Systems to join them.

New Republic - Cons - Corrupt Goverment - An Occasional Psychopath like Jacen Solo , and sometimes it lies but usually for the best interest of the General Population 1 Wrong 1000 Lives Saved

EMPIRE - Pro's - Efficent Governing , Cracks Down on Criminals and Smugglers , Large and Powerful Military thats all i can think of if there are other good things let me know o.o .

EMPIRE - Cons - Slave Labor , Conscription for Armies , Forced Alliances , Dictatorship , Cruelty and Concentration Camps for Aliens , Genocide , Forced Submission , Biased Trials , Corrupted Judges (if the convict even gets a trial) , Torture , They dont care if one of their men dies , Abandonment of Soldiers on Battlefield , Crappy Armor , Horriable Training for Soldiers (NEED TO AIM) , Crappy Non-Shielded Starships with minimum Weaponry (exception for Tie Defender and Tie Bomber) , OH AND GOT OWNED BY A MUCH SMALLER REBEL FORCE o.o.



SO OVERALL ILL GO WITH THE REPUBLIC AND REBEL ALLIANCE ANYTIME big grin

LONG LIVE THE ALLIANCE , LONG LIVE RED SQUADRON , LONG LIVE FREEDOM!!

*cough* spell check! *cough*

Just kidding buddy, I like all of your points.

MasterAshenVor
Thank You...Iv done alot of Study about the Empire and the Rebellion JUST for this kind of Debate smile and im pleased with the Results thanks Sweersa for the Compliment.

Tangible God
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Sir...If they had FAILED UTTERLY there would not be any books from the Legacy of the Force or Legacy Comic Books now would there?


They Made a Peace with the Vong and Got their Planets Back....They had Set backs but it was not a failure....Failure is when you lose the war not a few battles. Yeah, at the expense of 350 trillion people.

NonSensi-Klown
Yeah...

You realize, that that is every single man, women, and child on Earth...+62 thousand 500 times over?

If Sideous. Hell, if Thrawn had been around, that wouldn't have happened.

Tangible God
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Ok 3 Things...

1 - The Empire are like Nazi's or Communists anyone who they even SUSPECT of being sympathetic to the Alliance or a Threat they ELIMINATE them from existance, Innocent or Not....with no trial and usually the Trials were Corrupt and one sided.

2nd - HAS ANYONE FORGOTTEN THE HUGE CELEBRATION ON COURASANT WHEN PALPATINE AND VADER WERE KILLED o.o and if you notice THEY PULLED DOWN THE STATUE OF PALPATINE infront of his Office.

3rd - Do you not understand that they destroyed Alderaan and all of itts Inhabitants innocent WEMON , CHILDREN , OLD PEOPLE , Men ect. plus without the Death Star they used Star Destroyers and TIE BOMBERS to bomb a civilization into Submission if it showed even a slight bit of Indapendance.

OH YEA and a 4th point.... THEY TORTURED PEOPLE and Killed Luke's Ant and Uncle o.o Brutality , Torture , Genocide , Slave Labor (The Wookies) , Emperialistic = Forcing other planets to side with them.

Now lets talk about the Rebel Alliance and the New Republic

4 points again ill do cons and pros for both actually.

New Republic - PRO's - Diplomatic Society , Freedom , Hired Labor , Volunteer Enlisted Soldiers , Liberators , Senate and Court Trials for Law Breakers , Helps Allies in Wars when possiable , Deosent Force Star Systems to join them.

New Republic - Cons - Corrupt Goverment - An Occasional Psychopath like Jacen Solo , and sometimes it lies but usually for the best interest of the General Population 1 Wrong 1000 Lives Saved

EMPIRE - Pro's - Efficent Governing , Cracks Down on Criminals and Smugglers , Large and Powerful Military thats all i can think of if there are other good things let me know o.o .

EMPIRE - Cons - Slave Labor , Conscription for Armies , Forced Alliances , Dictatorship , Cruelty and Concentration Camps for Aliens , Genocide , Forced Submission , Biased Trials , Corrupted Judges (if the convict even gets a trial) , Torture , They dont care if one of their men dies , Abandonment of Soldiers on Battlefield , Crappy Armor , Horriable Training for Soldiers (NEED TO AIM) , Crappy Non-Shielded Starships with minimum Weaponry (exception for Tie Defender and Tie Bomber) , OH AND GOT OWNED BY A MUCH SMALLER REBEL FORCE o.o.



SO OVERALL ILL GO WITH THE REPUBLIC AND REBEL ALLIANCE ANYTIME big grin

LONG LIVE THE ALLIANCE , LONG LIVE RED SQUADRON , LONG LIVE FREEDOM!! You're naming mostly isolated incidents. And you're ignoring what's been said.

The core of the Empire, that is to say that the leaders and such, were quite evil. The general populace and even the military personnel were not, just like in real life. And that "HUGE" celebration we see at the end of ROTJ was a celebration of the death of Palpatine and Vader, i.e core guys---evil guys.

And "THEY" did not destroy Alderaan, that was Tarkin and his posse, yet more core guys. Nothing to do with the lowly trooper or pilot.

And before you blame the entire Empire on the actions of a few (Owen and Beru's killers) take into consideration the beliefs and brainwashing enforced upon the stormtroopers and Imperial denizens.

Noone's arguing that the Empire wasn't the greater of all Evil's, just keep in mind that the actions of a few don't speak for the Quadrillions of people under its jurisdiction.

Gideon
Tangible's got it right. The Empire's leadership and High Command were insanely evil. Palpatine, Pestage, Vader, Tarkin, Doriana, Dangor, Trachta, Zaarin, even Thrawn has committed terrible acts of deception and murder on a gross scale. But the rest? They were just following orders, though I suppose you could say the same regarding the SS. The point is that that was the nature of the beast: eat or be eaten.

As far as how the Empire was seen, only in the Outer Rim was the Empire's oppression visible. The Core and Inner Rim remained much the same, and Palpatine was considered to be a demi-god by most of the galaxy's denizens.

Elite Hunter
And dude stop using the caps, it's pretty annoying but I also agree with Tangible.

truejedi
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Yeah...

You realize, that that is every single man, women, and child on Earth...+62 thousand 500 times over?

If Sideous. Hell, if Thrawn had been around, that wouldn't have happened.

i disagree. It was the Jedi who learned how to fight the vong. The vong were wiping out all resistance before the galaxy adapted to their tech. That would have happened with the GE as well. The Jedi, their shadow bombs, and manipulation of dovin basals were a huge reason for the turning of the war. Unless Vader or Sidious had been on the front lines of every battle, the Galatic Empire would have been screwed.

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by truejedi
i disagree. It was the Jedi who learned how to fight the vong. The vong were wiping out all resistance before the galaxy adapted to their tech. That would have happened with the GE as well. The Jedi, their shadow bombs, and manipulation of dovin basals were a huge reason for the turning of the war. Unless Vader or Sidious had been on the front lines of every battle, the Galatic Empire would have been screwed.

The Vong however disagree with your opinion as stated here in Traitor

The warmaster only glared at him stonily.

"Jacen Solo is also the eldest son of the galaxy's leading clan. His mother was, for a time, the New Republic's Supreme Overlord..."

"For a time? How is this possible? Why would her successor let her live?"

"Does the warmaster truly wish a disquisition upon the New Republic's perverse system of government? It has to do with a bizarre concept called democracy, in which ruling power is given to whoever is most skillful at directing the herd instincts of the largest masses of their most ignorant citizens..."

"Their politics are your concern," Tsavong Lah growled. "Their fighting strength is mine."

"The two are, in this case, more closely related than the warmaster might suspect. For a quarter of a standard century, the Solo family has dominated galactic affairs of all kinds. Even the warmaster of the Jedi is none other than Jacen Solo's uncle. This uncle, Luke Skywalker, is popularly considered to have singlehandedly created the New Republic by defeating an older, much more rational government called the Empire. And, I might add, it is fortunate for us that he did; the Empire was vastly more organized, powerful, and potently militaristic. Lacking the internal divisions we have exploited so successfully in the New Republic, the Empire could have crushed our people utterly in their first encounter."


Tsavong Lah bristled. "The True Gods would never have allowed such a defeat!"

"Precisely my point," Nom Anor countered. "They didn't. Instead, Luke Skywalker, the Solos, and the Rebel Alliance destroyed the Empire, leaving the galaxy in a state of disarray, a power vacuum that we could exploit--for even then, the Solo clan served the True Gods without ever knowing it!"

For the first time, Tsavong Lah began to look interested.

Gideon
Originally posted by truejedi
i disagree. It was the Jedi who learned how to fight the vong. The vong were wiping out all resistance before the galaxy adapted to their tech. That would have happened with the GE as well. The Jedi, their shadow bombs, and manipulation of dovin basals were a huge reason for the turning of the war. Unless Vader or Sidious had been on the front lines of every battle, the Galatic Empire would have been screwed.

No. Utterly and totally wrong. That's about as polite and succinct as I can make this. As the statement provided by Elite Hunter demonstrates, the Yuuzhan Vong (who had been observing galactic events for decades), were in veritable fear of the military might of the Galactic Empire. Nom Anor, one of the Vong's most proficient spies and manipulators, helped participate in the destruction of one of the major fragments of the Empire after the reborn Palpatine's final death, as seen in Crimson Empire.

((The_Anomaly))
This is like asking if Hitler and the Nazi's were bad.

truejedi
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The Vong however disagree with your opinion as stated here in Traitor

The warmaster only glared at him stonily.

"Jacen Solo is also the eldest son of the galaxy's leading clan. His mother was, for a time, the New Republic's Supreme Overlord..."

"For a time? How is this possible? Why would her successor let her live?"

"Does the warmaster truly wish a disquisition upon the New Republic's perverse system of government? It has to do with a bizarre concept called democracy, in which ruling power is given to whoever is most skillful at directing the herd instincts of the largest masses of their most ignorant citizens..."

"Their politics are your concern," Tsavong Lah growled. "Their fighting strength is mine."

"The two are, in this case, more closely related than the warmaster might suspect. For a quarter of a standard century, the Solo family has dominated galactic affairs of all kinds. Even the warmaster of the Jedi is none other than Jacen Solo's uncle. This uncle, Luke Skywalker, is popularly considered to have singlehandedly created the New Republic by defeating an older, much more rational government called the Empire. And, I might add, it is fortunate for us that he did; the Empire was vastly more organized, powerful, and potently militaristic. Lacking the internal divisions we have exploited so successfully in the New Republic, the Empire could have crushed our people utterly in their first encounter."


Tsavong Lah bristled. "The True Gods would never have allowed such a defeat!"

"Precisely my point," Nom Anor countered. "They didn't. Instead, Luke Skywalker, the Solos, and the Rebel Alliance destroyed the Empire, leaving the galaxy in a state of disarray, a power vacuum that we could exploit--for even then, the Solo clan served the True Gods without ever knowing it!"

For the first time, Tsavong Lah began to look interested.



I stand corrected: forgot about that opinion. Good use of a quote. cool

Captain REX
Somehow I doubt that Tarkin had permission from the Emperor to blow up Alderaan. After all, the Emperor commissioned it. And who cares what the stormtroopers think; they are the mindless hordes trained to extend the Emperor's will across the galaxy.

The Empire is dag-nasty evil. You can't swing it any other way that parts of it weren't evil. Either you're duped into being evil or you're just plain evil in the Empire.

Lt. Valerian
Originally posted by Tangible God
You're naming mostly isolated incidents. And you're ignoring what's been said.

The core of the Empire, that is to say that the leaders and such, were quite evil. The general populace and even the military personnel were not, just like in real life. And that "HUGE" celebration we see at the end of ROTJ was a celebration of the death of Palpatine and Vader, i.e core guys---evil guys.

And "THEY" did not destroy Alderaan, that was Tarkin and his posse, yet more core guys. Nothing to do with the lowly trooper or pilot.

And before you blame the entire Empire on the actions of a few (Owen and Beru's killers) take into consideration the beliefs and brainwashing enforced upon the stormtroopers and Imperial denizens.

Noone's arguing that the Empire wasn't the greater of all Evil's, just keep in mind that the actions of a few don't speak for the Quadrillions of people under its jurisdiction.

That's exactly what I meant before.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
sometimes, iron fists hold better than open hands.

sweersa
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
sometimes, iron fists hold better than open hands.

Hehehe. Nice.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Actually, after reading Allegiance, I started thinkng about this, as well. The Empire, as a whole, as Gideon said, was not really evil. At least not before the destruction of Alderaan. The main characters in the book were stormtroopers who only joined the Empire with the sole purpose of helping others. Aiding people in need. They believed the Empire was righteous and just, until they started to become suspicious when their superiors began doing things which were not exactly noble, or even 'legal', and began questioning the Empire's motives. Probably the Empire's high ranking officers kept lower ranking ones, like stormtroopers and such, in the dark, making them believe the Empire was something it was not.
I assume many of the Empire's soldiers, pilots, etc. eventually left the Empire (or at least tried), after the destruction of Alderaan. Like American Capitalism

Tangible God
Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Like American Capitalism I'd call you a Commie but Commie's don't like Star Wars; it's a franchise afterall.

NonSensi-Klown
Originally posted by Captain REX
Either you're duped into being evil or you're just plain evil in the Empire.

This is the EU section, REX. no expression

Tangible God
I know, I was weirded out by that too. I usually expect Ush to say that.

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Aside from the whole "We'll blow up your planet!!!!" thing, was the empire truly awful? The actions of the emperor and Vader effected very few being really, and the empire did maintain order, generally, and we much more productive than the corrupt republic. So i wonder, was the empire truly an oppressive regime, or was thata just rebel propaganda?

The Emperor was an evil Sith Lord, what do you think. And it did seem as if his regime was sexist and racist. (Or speciists, if that's even a word.)

Look at Vader, he'd kill you on the spot for stuff that you'd only get reprimanded for as an officer.


("Cue Vader voice"wink


Vader: Why didn't you show up for work yesterday, officer.

Officer: I called in. I was feeling unwell, mi-lord. My apologies.

Vader: "Points finger" Do not let it happen again. No disintegrations.



Sidious and Vader nonchalantly killed and would've still killed anyone that seemed a threat or an opposition. Sidious ruled with fear and an iron fist. And he built many Death Stars for those planets that may've had points of views different than his.

Corusaunt's a nice place to visit, but i wouldn't wanna live there.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Tangible God
I'd call you a Commie but Commie's don't like Star Wars; it's a franchise afterall. Did I say I didn't like it? Anywho it looks like thanks to bush our economy is going to be in the toilet for a while.


Oh and when the core evil guys left the Imperial Remnant pretty much ceased to be so damn prejudiced.

And I think a few billion here and there is a lot better than what the Vong did.


And no while some of there action led to mass exctinction, they didnt outright go alien hunting.

For the average alien, a few rights were curtailed but business as usual seemed very possible.

sweersa
Originally posted by DarkSerpent

And I think a few billion here and there is a lot better than what the Vong did.


What part of Asian was the Vong from?

General Zink
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
This is the EU section, REX. no expression

And that means... what?

As we progress past the times of Palpatine, I could understand seeing different aspects of the Empire, but under the manipulations of the Sith... if you're joining up the Imperial ranks, chances are you are not a good person. Good people join against it.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by sweersa
What part of Asian was the Vong from? WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!
The Yuuzhan Vong
or some dumbshit thing from your r-tarded imagination land.

STFU and GTFO

sweersa
Originally posted by DarkSerpent
WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!
The Yuuzhan Vong
or some dumbshit thing from your r-tarded imagination land.

STFU and GTFO

Keep the flaming and language down please. This is a warning.

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by sweersa
Keep the flaming and language down please. This is a warning.

LOL "Mod" Sweers layed down the law but seriously the enlarged font is annoying and useless.

sweersa
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
LOL "Mod" Sweers layed down the law but seriously the enlarged font is annoying and useless.

smile

Gideon
I see the Quey'tek technique of cloaking one's status within the Force not only applies to Sith but moderators as well.

You have done well, sweersa. Everything is proceeding as I have forseen... heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.

...Ha ha. no expression

sweersa
Originally posted by Gideon
I see the Quey'tek technique of cloaking one's status within the Force not only applies to Sith but moderators as well.

You have done well, sweersa. Everything is proceeding as I have forseen... heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.

...Ha ha. no expression

The Nightmare Never Ends.

Hahaha.

Tangible God
Originally posted by General Zink
And that means... what?

As we progress past the times of Palpatine, I could understand seeing different aspects of the Empire, but under the manipulations of the Sith... if you're joining up the Imperial ranks, chances are you are not a good person. Good people join against it. I doubt the general populace knew about Palpatine and Vader's Sithly ties. The average man who thinks the Empire serves the greater good and agrees to serve it, is not evil. The Empire consisted of most of the galaxy, and billions upon billions of soldiers and military personnel. It'd be downright absolutism to call them all evil.

Lt. Valerian
Exactly.

sweersa
Originally posted by Tangible God
I doubt the general populace knew about Palpatine and Vader's Sithly ties. The average man who thinks the Empire serves the greater good and agrees to serve it, is not evil. The Empire consisted of most of the galaxy, and billions upon billions of soldiers and military personnel. It'd be downright absolutism to call them all evil.

Sort of like the Nazis. Sure Hitler and his crew (along with a lot of the Generals...officers..etc were bad and corrupt but a lot of the regular soldiers we just German men and later boys...they had no choice and I bet a lot of them hated fighting for their bad cause.

But I know their was a lot of propaganda and such..who knows what the mind set they had was like.

Tangible God
Originally posted by sweersa
Sort of like the Nazis. Sure Hitler and his crew (along with a lot of the Generals...officers..etc were bad and corrupt but a lot of the regular soldiers we just German men and later boys...they had no choice and I bet a lot of them hated fighting for their bad cause.

But I know their was a lot of propaganda and such..who knows what the mind set they had was like. Exactly. The 15 millions German soldiers who served in the war weren't evil. Sure, there were probably thousands who knew what exactly was going on, but that hardly covers for the common pilot or submarine navigator.

sweersa
Originally posted by Tangible God
Exactly. The 15 millions German soldiers who served in the war weren't evil. Sure, there were probably thousands who knew what exactly was going on, but that hardly covers for the common pilot or submarine navigator.

I agree.

Captain REX
DarkSerpent, if you keep that attitude up, I am throwing you out.

The Galactic Empire is not Nazi Germany. The films made it very clear that anyone working for the Empire was bad. They were working for the Sith, whether they knew it or not, they were disposing of democracy and free will, they were destroying planets and subjugating others... if the did not defect to the Rebellion, then they were bad.

If the EU is saying otherwise, then it is all the more reason for me to dislike the Expanded Universe and its inability to stick with the source material.

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Captain REX
DarkSerpent, if you keep that attitude up, I am throwing you out.

The Galactic Empire is not Nazi Germany. The films made it very clear that anyone working for the Empire was bad. They were working for the Sith, whether they knew it or not, they were disposing of democracy and free will, they were destroying planets and subjugating others... if the did not defect to the Rebellion, then they were bad.

If the EU is saying otherwise, then it is all the more reason for me to dislike the Expanded Universe and its inability to stick with the source material. Yes sir.

Until GL himself rebukes a EU source it shall most likely remain canon.


Not necessarily, Many Germans just wanted to defend their country and knew they were going to war anyways so,you know...


And the Empire probably called the Rebellion "terrorists" (Sound familiar)
A lot of the soldiers in the empire had families to feed or nowhere else to go.




But Other than that yeah I get what your saying.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Captain REX
DarkSerpent, if you keep that attitude up, I am throwing you out.

The Galactic Empire is not Nazi Germany. The films made it very clear that anyone working for the Empire was bad. They were working for the Sith, whether they knew it or not, they were disposing of democracy and free will, they were destroying planets and subjugating others... if the did not defect to the Rebellion, then they were bad.

If the EU is saying otherwise, then it is all the more reason for me to dislike the Expanded Universe and its inability to stick with the source material.

still. shouldn't there be sides to every story? I doubt that everyone who was with the empire knows everything the empire does... there's bound to be people who was with them just because they have to- security purposes, so-called future and all that.

Enyalus
It was Plato first (then perhaps Nietzsche) who put forth the theory that no evil person ever identifies themselves as evil. Every person naturally strives for good - often times they are simply confused as to the true definition of what that 'good' is. Thus, some are selfish, or manipulative, or downright psychotic. Nevertheless, if you were to ask them if what they were doing was wrong, most would tell you that in their eyes, it is not. No one considers themselves evil - it's simply not in our nature.

stick out tongue Full argument can be found in Books 1 and 2 of The Republic. My point is that I don't even think Palpatine saw himself as evil. As he tells Anakin, one can't truly understand the Force if one only studies a one-sided dogmatic view of it. He probably simply considered himself educated, enlightened, and an opportunist.

Gideon
Originally posted by Captain REX
DarkSerpent, if you keep that attitude up, I am throwing you out.

The Galactic Empire is not Nazi Germany. The films made it very clear that anyone working for the Empire was bad. They were working for the Sith, whether they knew it or not, they were disposing of democracy and free will, they were destroying planets and subjugating others... if the did not defect to the Rebellion, then they were bad.

If the EU is saying otherwise, then it is all the more reason for me to dislike the Expanded Universe and its inability to stick with the source material.

With respect, REX, I disagree entirely. As Lucas says, "only a Sith deals in absolutes." If you want to apply such absolitism to the moral debate on Star Wars, you're falling into a trap. The Empire was a highly popular institution. If we applied your logic to that, that means the majority of the galaxy is "bad" or "evil." Hell, one could also attribute such pejoratives to the Old Republic and every Senator present, since they handed Palpatine the leadership of the galaxy. By making Palpatine Emperor, the Senators were disposing of democracy and free will. They contributed to the agenda of the Sith.

I'm sorry, but I don't get where someone can just say LOLZ TEH EMPIRE WAS BAD PERIOD.

Lt. Valerian
Besides, REX, the novel Allegiance is not EU material, not really, since it's timeline is some time after ANH. And I said before, the novel is about a group of stormtroopers who actually believed they were doing a greater good for the galaxy by serving the Empire, and eventually left, realizing after some days, that the leaders of the Empire were evil and corrupt. This proves there were a lot of people in the Empire who didn't know what the Empire really was.

sweersa
Originally posted by Captain REX
DarkSerpent, if you keep that attitude up, I am throwing you out.

The Galactic Empire is not Nazi Germany. The films made it very clear that anyone working for the Empire was bad. They were working for the Sith, whether they knew it or not, they were disposing of democracy and free will, they were destroying planets and subjugating others... if the did not defect to the Rebellion, then they were bad.

If the EU is saying otherwise, then it is all the more reason for me to dislike the Expanded Universe and its inability to stick with the source material.

I wouldn't say the films made it very clear. Obviously all of the officers they showed were bad..but they really never touched on it in depth to draw such a conclusion from the movies. I am hoping they will in the upcoming live action series.


Remember, the Republic became the Empire...All of the government and military officials of the Republic that were good did not automatically become bad after the Empire was born (besides the clones) they just had new orders and would have to follow them. I am sure their are some good guys on the Imperial side that either believe what they are doing is right or are just blinded. Plus they may not want to risk running off to the Rebels if they didn't like it.

Remember the opening crawl in ROTS..."Heroes on both sides...evil is everywhere" (or something like that.)

This suggests good guys are among both sides...something you could apply to the Imperial forces.

Men don't have to be monsters to do bad things...sometimes it is the orders that cause good men to do what some would consider bad.

Tangible God
Originally posted by Captain REX
DarkSerpent, if you keep that attitude up, I am throwing you out.

The Galactic Empire is not Nazi Germany. The films made it very clear that anyone working for the Empire was bad. They were working for the Sith, whether they knew it or not, they were disposing of democracy and free will, they were destroying planets and subjugating others... if the did not defect to the Rebellion, then they were bad.

If the EU is saying otherwise, then it is all the more reason for me to dislike the Expanded Universe and its inability to stick with the source material. Woah. I thought for a half a second that Ush had hacked your profile. This is the EU Forum, ya know.

If this were to be the truth of the matter, then every Imperial who defected most have had a complete moral makeover. If they knew themselves to be Evil, then they must have been Evil in all walks of life. Such as sudden and frankly quite unbelievable shift in the chemical composition in the part of your brain which recognizes right and wrong doesn't behoove humanity. It's more of a realization that what you support is morally wrong, only you didn't see it before (for whatever reason). An Evil person is someone who knows when Evil takes place, approves of, and assists that Evil. No ignorant person can even claim to be Evil when they have no idea what's really going on.

Enyalus
PRUVE IT, DOOD, LULZ!

Tangible God
Originally posted by Enyalus
PRUVE IT, DOOD, LULZ! You're becoming tiresome. Not DarkSerpent tiresome, but tiresome nonetheless.

One is not Evil in some moments and Good in others. A person's nature swings to one or the other.

Enyalus
Not so. There have been plenty of murderers and rapists who have had loved ones themselves. Daughters they took care of. Or an old parent they cared for.

Saw an interview on A & E a few years ago with a convicted mob hitman, codenamed The Iceman (he used to put a few bodies in a freezer to throw off the police about the time of death). Contracted killer for the mob who killed the people he was hired to, other hitmen he considered friends, and even police officers. But he had a wife and family he says he loves, etc.

It's very rare you find someone evil through and through. Those are called sociopaths, and lack any kind of empathy. wink

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, your viewpoint is very black and white. I believe people to be more complex than that. Chalk it up to a philosophical difference, I suppose.

Tangible God
Originally posted by Enyalus
Not so. There have been plenty of murderers and rapists who have had loved ones themselves. Daughters they took care of. Or an old parent they cared for.

Saw an interview on A & E a few years ago with a convicted mob hitman, codenamed The Iceman (he used to put a few bodies in a freezer to throw off the police about the time of death). Contracted killer for the mob who killed the people he was hired to, other hitmen he considered friends, and even police officers. But he had a wife and family he says he loves, etc.

It's very rare you find someone evil through and through. Those are called sociopaths, and lack any kind of empathy. wink I should have been clearer.

There's Evil deeds, and there's Evil thought. A truly Evil person should be aware of their moral allignment. Ignorance (while sometimes inexcusable in deed) doesn't make one Evil. If such an aware person takes delight in deeds that are defined as Evil, then they themselves are. Even apathy towards Evil deeds throws one's morality into question, though that's subjective to situation.

A sociopath could be under the impression that he's done nothing wrong (makes him no less crazy or dangerous).

Palpatine, Vader, Tarkin, Pestage... they all knew right and wrong, Light and Dark, Good and Evil, but they willingly chose the Evil path. The average trooper was under the impression that he was doing Good, and serving Good... that does not make him Evil. Hell he may have never actually committed and Evil deed, nevermind nursed Evil thoughts.

Enyalus
I agree with the rest of your post. I wanted to develop more on one part of it though:



What I had said in my previous post, regarding Plato and Nietzsche, is that while they know what is right and wrong, good and bad, they might see it differently. To be human is to want Good. Not just the semblance of it. And that's where people get into trouble. Because who is defining what that good is, or the approaches to it? The men you mentioned used fear to control people. But control, when you're at the top of a government, is good. It means less civil fighting, less rebellion. Tamer masses. In general, peace. And peace is good. In the end, they deluded themselves into thinking that the ends justified the means. I doubt any of them saw themselves as evil.

Vader slaughtered children - many of whom he probably knew. But he did so in order to save Padme, someone he loved. To him, he had no choice.

Palpatine amassed political and personal power. But, what's the Sith motto?

Through passion I gain strength
Through strength I gain power
Through power I gain victory
Through victory my chains are broken.

So by amassing this power, Palpatine was freeing himself - making sure that he was the boss, and would be slave to no one elses decisions and rules. He set the bar. He was free. And freedom is good. For him. Which is a perfect form of egoism.

It's all a matter of perspective. Like I said, I don't believe anyone truly sees themselves as evil.

To each his own, though. I'll never impose a belief of mine on someone else. That's also part of my philosophy.

Tangible God
Originally posted by Enyalus
It's all a matter of perspective. Like I said, I don't believe anyone truly sees themselves as evil. Maybe not, but the rest of us do. And bully to them if they disagree. Men who willingly recognize and break the fundamental laws of society and defy the established morality of its people, are, for lack of a better word, Evil. And to those naysayers who think the ends always justifies the means, well... let's just say that if their is a peaceful, less harmful methof of obtaining the greater good, then don't pick it's deadly counterpart, lest you be labelled Evil.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Tangible God
Maybe not, but the rest of us do. And bully to them if they disagree. Men who willingly recognize and break the fundamental laws of society and defy the established morality of its people, are, for lack of a better word, Evil. And to those naysayers who think the ends always justifies the means, well... let's just say that if their is a peaceful, less harmful methof of obtaining the greater good, then don't pick it's deadly counterpart, lest you be labelled Evil.

thumb up To quote Faunus, "Wurd."

DarkSerpent
Originally posted by Tangible God
Maybe not, but the rest of us do. And bully to them if they disagree. Men who willingly recognize and break the fundamental laws of society and defy the established morality of its people, are, for lack of a better word, Evil. And to those naysayers who think the ends always justifies the means, well... let's just say that if their is a peaceful, less harmful methof of obtaining the greater good, then don't pick it's deadly counterpart, lest you be labelled Evil. Weenie

alcantur
I can't avoid noting that for several citizens in the empire, serving the legal government was the right thing to do. It was with the law and with the order and peace that the clone wars has taken away from them, eventhough it meant to cause pain and suffering to those opposing to the law and government.
Something similar happened in Germany during the nazi government. The majority of germans and imperials were not bad, they were misguided by the situation, the leadership, the propaganda and the belief that they were better than before.
There were some really cruel and bad people, as everywhere, but for certain people, they got what they wanted from the empire....a sense of peace, control and welfare. And they were ready to do whatever was necessary to protect that, even if that ment commiting what we under our own point of view consider as attrocities. That happened even to some american soldiers in Vietnam war, they commited attocities in the name of democracy, and they thought it was right, and some just did it for sport.

MasterAshenVor
Ummm People....yes iv seen eveything you've typed but may i point out. That the Leaders of an Orginization ARE the Orginization. Since they make the calls they do the deeds. Its like this...You are in a office...you are just a janitor...and you're boss tells you to take some money from a poor person and you're boss gives you a good reason to do it...You do it...Ok...THE GALACTIC EMPIRE...is run by the leaders....we dont care...about the pawns of the Empire. WE are debateng the Empire as a Orginization the Janitor was naeve but the Boss was Evil. so...the Company is EVIL

Tangible God
Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Ummm People....yes iv seen eveything you've typed but may i point out. That the Leaders of an Orginization ARE the Orginization. Since they make the calls they do the deeds. Its like this...You are in a office...you are just a janitor...and you're boss tells you to take some money from a poor person and you're boss gives you a good reason to do it...You do it...Ok...THE GALACTIC EMPIRE...is run by the leaders....we dont care...about the pawns of the Empire. WE are debateng the Empire as a Orginization the Janitor was naeve but the Boss was Evil. so...the Company is EVIL No doubts there: the organization itself was founded by, and is, inherently Evil. Though, it's not with every organization that the leaders are the be all/end all, but it is with the Empire.

NonSensi-Klown
Originally posted by General Zink
And that means... what?

As we progress past the times of Palpatine, I could understand seeing different aspects of the Empire, but under the manipulations of the Sith... if you're joining up the Imperial ranks, chances are you are not a good person. Good people join against it.

Allegiance says otherwise.


lolz.

And it's that black and white bland story-telling that makes me find the PT's story to be far superior to the OT.

MasterAshenVor
How so...If the OT is Black and White then we wouldent be having this discussion...as you sayed you'reself Alliegance says that there is a Grey...So what you just said just overwrite what you previously said..o.o.

NonSensi-Klown
... what?

The OT is black and white. The EU is not, and neither is the PT. Allegience is part of EU.

Captain REX
Originally posted by Tangible God
Woah. I thought for a half a second that Ush had hacked your profile. This is the EU Forum, ya know.

And the movies are still beyond the Expanded Universe.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Gideon
Based on collective evidence, the Empire -- as a whole -- was just incredibly strict. Taxation and such increased dramatically, but most people who minded their own business wouldn't see the business end of a lightsaber or blaster. It should be noted that Palpatine was extraordinarily popular and, for the most part, so was the Empire. The public would blame their less-than-hospitable actions on icons of fear like Tarkin and Vader, but wouldn't associate the Empire's war crimes with Palpatine himself.
Not to mention being Xenophobic( the equivalence of Racism in the real world except with aliens)

Tangible God
Originally posted by Captain REX
And the movies are still beyond the Expanded Universe. Yup. But such black and white perception is boring and quite stifling.

Gideon
Originally posted by Tangible God
Yup. But such black and white perception is boring and quite stifling.

And patently false.

With deepest respect to Sirs Ushgarak and REX, I have never got the impression that the Galactic Empire and its employees and loyalists were wholly evil. As George Lucas and other characters reiterate as a mantra, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." So the idea that the Empire is absolutely evil is, in itself, an evil and false idea.

Tangible God
Originally posted by Gideon
And patently false.

With deepest respect to Sirs Ushgarak and REX, I have never got the impression that the Galactic Empire and its employees and loyalists were wholly evil. As George Lucas and other characters reiterate as a mantra, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." So the idea that the Empire is absolutely evil is, in itself, an evil and false idea. A paradox? I love paradoxes! Drinks all around!

Null ARC Avis
I dont believe Palpatine, or the Sith, are evil, or even entirely self serving. In Dark Lord: TRODV, near the end, Palpatine says that someone needs to rule without any ethical or moral guidelines for the good of the people. He saw himself as fit enough to take that responsibility. He probably saw himself as a necessary evil.

Tarkin? He followed his golden rule: Rule through fear of force, not force itself. He was just trying to get control of the people and stop the rebellion, which were terrorists. They weren't exactly the angels in white the OT has made them out to be. They hid within the civillian population, killed imperials simply for being imperials, and the like. much like real terrorists. Sure, their command was pretty good, mostly, but they weren't at all morally clean.

Tangible God
Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
I dont believe Palpatine, or the Sith, are evil, or even entirely self serving. In Dark Lord: TRODV, near the end, Palpatine says that someone needs to rule without any ethical or moral guidelines for the good of the people. He saw himself as fit enough to take that responsibility. He probably saw himself as a necessary evil.

Tarkin? He followed his golden rule: Rule through fear of force, not force itself. He was just trying to get control of the people and stop the rebellion, which were terrorists. They weren't exactly the angels in white the OT has made them out to be. They hid within the civillian population, killed imperials simply for being imperials, and the like. much like real terrorists. Sure, their command was pretty good, mostly, but they weren't at all morally clean. True. I doubt that even in Star Wars there was a cosmic morality, some all powerful force that determined allignment.

MasterAshenVor
But the thing that makes the Rebellion the "GOOD GUYS| is that they were strveing for the GOOD of the Galaxy but in the RIGHT way the Empire was striveing for the GOOD of the Galaxy in the WRONG way the way THEY thought was right not what the REST of the Galaxy thought was right...such as Slavery...What had the wookiees done to them? but no they enslaved them for labor..they destroyed Alderaan tell me please tell me what good does it serve to destroy an ENTIRE planet just for a show of force and a interrogation tactic...The Empire had a good Order Structure but they were going about it the WRONG way thats what makes them Evil. Dont forget either that an Imperial walking down the street would gun down a Rebel just as a Quick as the Rebel would the Storm Trooper.

Null ARC Avis
well if you were walking down the street and saw a member of Al-Quaida, you wouldn't stop and ask him why he was doing what he was doing, you would kill him on the spot.

Gideon
Originally posted by Null ARC Avis


Eh?

The dark side of the Force is unnatural (George Lucas has stated that the 'true' side of the Force is the light side) and all who adhere to it do so for selfish reasons. While allegiance to a government may not be absolutely amoral, allegiance to the dark side does. No matter for what reason -- the dark side always ends with its users going down a path for power and nothing more. As far as Palpatine himself is concerned, the Force itself couldn't tolerate the man. He orchestrated the two galactic-spanning wars to establish his unprecedented state of power, toppled an ancient order and the government it served for no other purpose than because he felt he deserved its leadership. His ultimate intentions were no less than the incorporation of the universe into his consciousness; apoethesis.

Palpatine was a monster. The monster.

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