Angeal, Genesis & Cloud vs Sephiroth & Zack Fair

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Zack Fair
Somehow all former SOLDIERs find themselves fighting it out in ShinRa's lvl 49 training room.

Cloud Strife is at Advent Children lvl and will fight with the First Tsurugi. Genesis has his broadsword and Angeal uses the Buster Sword.

Sephiroth is at the level of power he was during the Nibelheim incident. Zack Fair is at the lvl of power he was before he was ambushed by the ShinRa armada. Zack will also have the buster sword, since his katana is weaker than all the other weapons and has a tendency to break which wouldn't be fair.

Discuss.

ESB -1138
Cloud pwns Sephiroth quickly with Omnislash and all three team up on Zack and kill him. Done.

Dark-Jaxx
Cloud can take out Zack, and Genesis and Angeal could at least stall Seph til Cloud is done, then team pwns.

Terryc250
Zack has beaten both Angeal and Genesis, then got owned by Sephiroth, Sephiroth should beable to hold off both G and A, if not beat them, then it depends on who wins out of Zack and Cloud, imo, AC Cloud wins

ESB -1138
This is how it goes down:

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Cloud pwns Sephiroth quickly with Omnislash and all three team up on Zack and kill him. Done.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Zack has beaten both Angeal and Genesis, then got owned by Sephiroth, Sephiroth should beable to hold off both G and A, if not beat them, then it depends on who wins out of Zack and Cloud, imo, AC Cloud wins While Sephiroth can beat both Angeal and Genesis, I do not think he could do it before Cloud beat Zack, remember, Cloud is basically Zack with more experience, power, and feats.

I do not think Sephiroth can take the team of three after that.

Zack Fair
Would you guys say AC Cloud > CC Sephiroth?

Dark-Jaxx
Maybe. Wouldn't totally surprise me.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Zack Fair
Would you guys say AC Cloud > CC Sephiroth?
Hard to tell, because we don't see Sephiroth going all-out, Sephiroth was known as a Hero, and was basically a legend to people all over the planet, even Cloud said this in FF7 about CC Sephiroth

"Sephiroth's strength is unreal. He is far stronger in reality then any story you might have heard about him. "

Dark-Jaxx
While that is true, you have to wonder how strong Cloud was after he inherited Zack's skills and Buster Sword. He was already naturally very strong, surprisingly so. And then there is all the strength he gained in FFVII, and maybe AC.

In fact, I would say Cloud in AC is stronger than CC Seph, yeah.

Terryc250
That was said during FF7, so unless he got that much stronger in the events of FF7,

The FF7 team in AC got even weaker, Cloud got alot weaker, but got his FF7 strength back in the last fight.

Tifa: "Two years ago, think of the strength we all had when we fought that last battle. It's only been a couple of years, but already that feeling is gone. But Cloud, I think he's found it again. "

Dark-Jaxx
Well you have to really wonder if what Cloud said about Sephiroth was really true. He said that there is no way he could have defeated Sephiroth, when he in fact did. And also, I believe Cloud did get much stronger.

Terryc250
He said that when he was wondering how he was alive, and Sephiroth was dead during the Nibelheim incident, in reality, he didn't exactly defeat Sephiroth, Sephiroth was insane and was in delusional talking to his "mother" after owning Zack, when Cloud somehow got behind him and stabbed him through the back with the buster sword then he stabbed through Cloud and leaped into the lifestream, thats how he died, well he didn't exactly "die" his body disintegrated in the lifestream and his conscience just wandered the lifestream, then he reformed his body at the nothern crator.

Dark-Jaxx
Oh yeah I forgot, CC shat on previously established canon. ^_^

Zack Fair
Just remember how Cloud believed he faced Sephiroth. He thought he faced Sephiroth face to face 1 on 1. When in fact all he did was fatally wound a Sephiroth who not only had his guard down, but had no idea Cloud was there.

how exactly did Crisis Core shat on previously established canon?

Terryc250
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Oh yeah I forgot, CC shat on previously established canon. ^_^

What do you mean? This was the whole canon story the entire time.

Cloud thought he faced Sephiroth because he had Zacks memories, thats why he was all confused on how he was alive and Sephiroth was dead, because Zack lost to Sephiroth.

Zack Fair
Yeah.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
What do you mean? This was the whole canon story the entire time.

Cloud thought he faced Sephiroth because he had Zacks memories, thats why he was all confused on how he was alive and Sephiroth was dead, because Zack lost to Sephiroth. No, originally Cloud threw Sephiroth in the lifestream, Seph did not jump.

Terryc250
Oh right, i think last order was the first to change that, but CC made it back so that Cloud throws him in again

Dark-Jaxx
You sure? I thought in LO Cloud threw him too...Meh, whateva.

Zack Fair
In Crisis Core Cloud does throw Sephiroth into the lifestream. Last Order was the one wanking Sephiroth. Crisis Core retconned that shit thank god. Taking away Cloud's moment of glory just to please Seph fanboys pffft.

Terryc250
Sephiroth had half a connected body from almost being decapitated by the buster sword, and a head in one arm lol

Zack Fair
Yeah. I am surprised it didn't decapitate him at all. The thing was wider than him.

Dark-Jaxx
Why would it decapitate him? He was stabbed in the back, silly.

Terryc250
I meant cut in half.

Dark-Jaxx
I know. I'm just a dick.

GenomeFrozener
If Sephiroth decides to get serious, then he solos.

Dark-Jaxx
He got serious when fighting Genesis, and Genesis was still giving him trouble.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
He got serious when fighting Genesis, and Genesis was still giving him trouble.
I wouldn't say he was serious in that fight, he took it up a notch at 3:00 but even so he had a smirk on his face and you can hear him laugh a bit at 3:05, then he basically was just pushing Genesis around, and when Angeal stops him he still has all his normal composure, and just goes "Angeal.." unlike Genesis who is goin nuts.

fXGZd1nMaI4

leonheartmm
erm, sephirtoh wasnt SERIOUS when fighting genesis. havign said that, team 1 wins, simply because cloud is stronger then sephiroth{yes yes i see a lot of heat coming from this commen but its the truth. hes the main character and the stronger soldier}

Dark-Jaxx
By the cast of FFVII's words Cloud is weaker than Sephiroth.

Was he bloodlusted to the point Genesis was? No Terry. But he was giving forth effort, that much is certain.

leonheartmm
then how come he killed him twice? cloud is superior.

Dark-Jaxx
Cloud killed him cause he "found an opening in Seph's defense" in FFVII, which was kinda believable, there is no way that after all that happened in VII he was at full power when fighting Cloud.

AC, well AC was just PIS. Sephiroth didn't exert himself at all in that fight, right from the creator's mouths.

leonheartmm
^he was covering the entire planet in the corrupted lifestream and the geostigma wud have killed every1. how was he not exerting himself?

and when did the creators say that he wasnt exerting himself? did he just ALLOW himself to die? cmon now

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^he was covering the entire planet in the corrupted lifestream and the geostigma wud have killed every1. how was he not exerting himself?

and when did the creators say that he wasnt exerting himself? did he just ALLOW himself to die? cmon now Did he do ay of that while fighting Cloud? no expression

They said it in a guide I think, Terry knows more about it.

ESB -1138
And yet Sephiroth was SO powerful that he couldn't do a thing against Cloud's Omnislash. Bravo.

Dark-Jaxx
True, it was stupid. I admit that.

But that was a one time attack which Cloud only did when he was superly duperly stressed out/angry/emo-powered.

leonheartmm
erm, do u have major memory loss? he was doing it EXACTLY when he was fighting cloud.

Dark-Jaxx
No, he with a gesture made some negative lifestream cover Midgar.

With a gesture.

leonheartmm
and, that was exactly WHEN he was fighting cloud.

Dark-Jaxx
Yeah...But notice when he did it, he didn't exert himself, at all. no expression

leonheartmm
but u know, gesture or otherwise, if he had more power, not only wud he have showed it {cause really, whats the point of not , after all, u r going after MORE powe if ur going in jenovah's footsteps} but he wud have defeated cloud with it.

Dark-Jaxx
He wanted to make Cloud suffer, he was not exerting himself at all.

From the creator's mouths, they know more about it than you.

leonheartmm
again, did he LET cloud kill him with the omnislash {and the shocked resenting look on his face while it is happening definately eludes to that right?}

Dark-Jaxx
PIS is a motherfvcker.

leonheartmm
^naaah, its called PLOT. and FANTASY. it isnt inconcistant with the kind of beings cloud has defeated before, like jenovah etc. also, he is also one with jenovah's cells and theoretically, he cud have done what sephiroth did if he was evil and knowledgable enough

Dark-Jaxx
Sephiroth has more J Cells than anyone else, he completely dominated Jenova, he IS Jenova now.

Plot huh? Notice why it is called "PLOT Induced Stupidity." Seph lost for the sake of the plot.

It is like Ganon and Link. Going by their respective powersets, Link should NEVER defeat Ganon, but does anyway.

Or in Darkstalkers, Pyron could have easily destroyed all of Earth and Makai with ease, but chose to limit himself to a mortal form for sport, and ended up losing to Demitri.

leonheartmm
but it isnt inconcistant. sephirtoh has a lot of jenovah cells yes, but does it say that he has more than cloud? also it is still debateable if seph was controlling jenovah or jenovah was controlling seph.

Dark-Jaxx
It's not debatable at all. It was also stated by said creators Seph controlled Jenova.

The entire point of Seph was that he was a monster pumped with J-Cells, he's basically Chris Benoit, only with J-Cells.

ESB -1138
Sephiroth needed Jenova's remains to return. He couldn't have done it alone.

Zack Fair
Otherwise he would have done it from the very beginning.

Terryc250

Terryc250
Oh and to clear things up, he was only a part-human part-jenova during his Crisis Core days, that body was disintegrated in the lifestream, in AC, he's entirely made up of Jenova 100%.

GenomeFrozener
Sephiroth is badass.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Oh and to clear things up, he was only a part-human part-jenova during his Crisis Core days, that body was disintegrated in the lifestream, in AC, he's entirely made up of Jenova 100%. Yeah, but if I said that, I couldn't have made my totally politically incorrect Chris Benoit comparison.

DarkC
Originally posted by Terryc250
I wouldn't say he was serious in that fight, he took it up a notch at 3:00 but even so he had a smirk on his face and you can hear him laugh a bit at 3:05, then he basically was just pushing Genesis around, and when Angeal stops him he still has all his normal composure, and just goes "Angeal.." unlike Genesis who is goin nuts.
Not sure or not he took it seriously or no, but it's glass-clear that he didn't exert himself very much at all.


Look at the passage where Genesis was just swinging wildly at Sephiroth, he not only managed to parry them with ease, he managed to look calm while doing it. When he actually starts remotely using a bit of force, Genesis actually slides back and then is blasted into the air. When Sephiroth puts a REAL blow on Genesis, the latter goes flying back as if launched from a catapault.


I say this to anyone claiming that Sephiroth can be "held off" by Angeal and Genesis - this is just folly. He could wipe the floor with them, he outmatched them with but the slightest of efforts.

Dark-Jaxx
Genesis was the only one fighting Sephiroth seriously, Angeal was just treating it as a training session. If both go full out, they can hold him long enough for Cloud to kill Zack.

Terryc250
Well it depends because we've never actually seen Sephiroth go 100%, and i'm sure if Sephiroth gets Genesis pissed off enough, Genesis might end up hurting Angeal at an attempt to take out Sephiroth (which would probably fail)

Dark-Jaxx
Well why would he try to hurt Angeal when both would be fighting to their full ability to kill Seph?

And the two cannot take Seph, but Cloud can take out Zack, so they just need to last long enough.

Terryc250
Because Genesis has anger issues, and has the "must do anything to win" mentality, he even blasts Angeal while he was hot-headed against Sephiroth just to get him out of the way, and he almost cut through him as well, i can see him firing something big at Sephiroth while Angeal is nearby, with it hurting Angeal and not effecting Sephiroth as usual, but meh its just a possibility.

Dark-Jaxx
Well Angeal was trying to stop him when he blasted him before.

And if you remember when Sephiroth and Genesis went for eachother, Angeal rather easily blocked both their blows.

DarkC
Originally posted by Terryc250
Well it depends because we've never actually seen Sephiroth go 100%, and i'm sure if Sephiroth gets Genesis pissed off enough, Genesis might end up hurting Angeal at an attempt to take out Sephiroth (which would probably fail)
Lionheart said that not even half his potential has been shown - I'm not entirely sure as to the extent of how true it is.

I still say that Sephiroth owns Angeal and Genesis if he were really trying.
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Well Angeal was trying to stop him when he blasted him before.

And if you remember when Sephiroth and Genesis went for eachother, Angeal rather easily blocked both their blows.
I chalk that down to the fact that it was a training session - Sephiroth was not swinging with any real force at all(as you can see, Genesis was blasted back) at that point.

Sephiroth was not seeking to kill, Genesis was, which is why he instantly (from the slow motion of the vid) sliced through Angeal's sword just to get at Sephiroth.


I'd even go so far to say that Sephiroth looks almost leisurely during that fight, even while forcing Genesis backwards with blade beam (during that part when One-Winged Angel was playing) he was swinging his Masamune almost casually.

Vampire Savior
Team 1 will take it. I think the DOC Genesis is alot stronger than he was in CC. I think Genesis is better than Seph by now.

I mean Seph lost to an inexperienced Cloud (due to a surprise attack) while it to a skilled SOLDIER to take down Genesis (Zack). Aint sayin that Genesis was better than Seph but he wasn't that far behind'im at that point (which was along time ago).

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Vampire Savior
Team 1 will take it. I think the DOC Genesis is alot stronger than he was in CC. I think Genesis is better than Seph by now. ...Based on what? no expression

He doesn't have a single feat in DoC. erm

Vampire Savior
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
...Based on what? no expression

He doesn't have a single feat in DoC. erm In CC Seph wasn't totally beatin the guy. I mean it's many years later and Seph is dead and Genesis is still around, plenty of time to be better ya'know?

Dark-Jaxx
Seph was holding back Genesis fairly easily, although he did use some effort of course and started to take the fight a little more seriously, but there is no basis for Genesis being stronger than Seph.

leonheartmm
1. BOTH were conversing with each other in the fight

2. sephiroth, like the atypical jap villian is always evilly/casually smirking in a fight, it doesnt necessarily mean that he isnt going all out

3. going by expressions, the expression on sephiroth's face when cloud omnislashed him is pretty evidently that of shock and slightly of fear, so going by that, he wasnt LETTING cloud omnislash him, he cudnt STOP cloud and cloud won fair and square

4. still not cannonc evidence on this thread or from what i remember that cloud has less cells initially

5. conflicting evidence to who is controlling who. sephiroth's aims seem to reflect more and more of jenovah's aims as the stroy progresses. for instance, he says he will do the same thing as "mother" and use the planet to traverse space and absorb the lifestream of other planet. remember, that his initial aim was just to become a god THROUGH the lifestream. and it is JENOVAH that gives him power, NOT the other way around.

6. still factual that cloud beat him twice, both in his most powerful incarnation

5. how was his first defeat a "surprise" attack? i mean he was normal sephiroth, that was defeated, then he turned to bizaaro sephirtoh, who was ALSO defeated, then he turned to safer sephiroth, and was ALSO defeated.

Zack Fair
This tired argument will end the moment we witness Sephiroth going all out. But alas Square will be lame and never let us see it. FKN hype they have created.

If Sephiroth is being serious I don't see why he can't solo team 1, and it is not like he has to since Zack is there to lend him an extra sword.

Terryc250
Originally posted by leonheartmm
1. BOTH were conversing with each other in the fight
Not really, besides Clouds little speech of pitying Sephiroth about knowing nothing, the only thing he says during the fight is "im not telling you" the rest is just Cloud going "ugh ah AGGH!" while Sephiroth says things like "ooo what made you get stronger?", "hmm i think i know what i should give you", "shall i give you despair?", "kneel before me, and beg me for mercy", "tell me what you cherish most, so i can enjoy taking it away from you" and things like that, basically just taunting the crap out of him with a smile on his face.


Anyone who watched the video with common sense, or knowledge of Sephiroth knows he wasn't going all out, he was having a casual conversation with Cloud the entire fight with basically a smile on his face, he has powers that he didn't use on Cloud at all, he covered the skies with the NL when he could've used it directly on Cloud, he could've TK'd Cloud, but just TK'd the top of a building instead, he could've battled and moved faster then Loz, but was moving at Clouds speed instead, he coud've directly killed Cloud but just stabbed him in a non-vital spot so he can taunt him some more.


I hope you know thats slowed down, and not real-time while Omnislash was happening, it was stated in the Reunion Files that the speed of Omnislash is a "blink of an eye" speed, it caught him off-guard, that along with PIS allowed Omnislash to hit.

Are you talking about CC Sephiroth? Because AC Sephiroth is 100% Jenova.

CC Sephiroth was infused with Jenova cells before he was even born, unlike the other SOLDIERs who were infused after they already human and developed, Sephiroth was infused with the cells while he was still in the womb, thats why he literally is basically Jenovas biological son, not just his body, but his mind as well are not human.


Jenova is gone and dead, Sephiroth can do whatever he wants with Jenovas powers, he made himself the vital core of the entity, if he wants to continue Jenovas original plans he can, if he doesn't he doesnt have to, he's not a slave to her.


In FF7 he fought the entire party well equipped with Materia, while he was holding back Holy at the same time, in AC it was pure PIS, Sephiroth is leagues above Cloud and if he was going all out and was using his powers Cloud would stand no chance, however; Sephiroth not using any of his powers + not going all out + CIS aurora + Cloud PISslash + Cloud being able to catch Sephiroth offguard (because Sephiroth was careless/not trying) = obvious PIS victory for Cloud.


His FF7 lost wasnt a surprise attack, read above.

Dark-Jaxx
His loss to Cloud in Nibelheim was the surprise. Cloud stuck a big ass sword in his back when Seph was not looking.

Wil7
Sephiroth and Zack are 2 good. Sephiroth and Zack- tough fight though.

leonheartmm
1. point STILL remains that both were conversing, so you can not bring that up as evidence for holding back

2. OR any1 whos a seph fanboy. he cudnt have tkd cloud, since that doesnt work directly on strong characters, or cloud sud have done it. the negetive lifestream WAS affecting every1 on the planet, giving them geostigmas, cloud already had it, so , how was he going to use it again??????? the wrest os baseless conjecture not backed by any evidence.

3. so , that shows again that cloud's attack speed was so fast that seph CUDNT counter it, not only beating your {seph cud have moved faster and beat cloud} theory, but also telling us that he did, even wiht all his power, have the durability to RESIST cloud's attack. remember, the team commented, that the fealing cloud had of himself, during the fight with sephiroth disappeared after they beat him. and that was why cloud was getting his ass handed in the beginning by sephiroth, and that was also why, he started giving seph trouble later on. {or r u suggesting that seph was taking it hard on cloud on the first half, and then took it easy on him in the later half???? not going for the obvious answer that he was never taking it easy, only cloud got stronger in the later part of the battle}

4. AC seph isnt 100% jenovah! what a thing to say. he is simply a memory, brought back to life by the power of jenovah. hence, he has all the same characteristics as before. after all, its not like jenovah's cells suddenly turned into sephiroth, they turned KADAJ into sephiroth, and he trun back after seph is defeated by cloud

5. again, one of the basic underlying themes of ff7 was nature vs nurture. both cloud and seph had the jenovah cells in them, and one turned out completely opposite to the other. and again, the affect of jenovah on seph and then sephiroth's own ambitions and hatred. all he wanted to do was become a god. but isnt it convenient that he chooses jenovah's course when he is reborn. and again, the basic story behind kadaj was that he wanted to KNOW who jenovah CHOSE to be her true son/successor{it was sephiroth} , and that implies control.

6. he held back holy and was done with it. you are also forgetting the role of aerith's death in holding back holy {if memory serves} . again, the advent children thing has been explained, he wasnt LEAGUES above cloud at all. thats just ur bias. he WAS going all out and he DID yet again lose to cloud and NOT willingly.

7. again, how was it a surpise attack? it was an attack which was too fast to be evaded/countered and too strong to b resisted by seph{again alluding to his power} . but it was done right infront of his face. it wasnt a stealth attack or anything.

Zack Fair
Later on Sephiroth was overwhelming Cloud casually. Even forcing him on his feet to continue the abuse. Cloud couldn't take it anymore. Cloud was even disarmed by Sephiroth. The Character Induced Stupidity happens when Sephiroth doesn't decapitate Cloud and instead stabs his shoulder. But that is just part of Seph's character--which sucks because it makes him an idiot.

Even the creator states Sephiroth wasn't trying at all.

Wil7
That is a really good point.

Pyron_Knight
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Seph was holding back Genesis fairly easily, although he did use some effort of course and started to take the fight a little more seriously, but there is no basis for Genesis being stronger than Seph.

Plus there's the awesome part where Sephiroth impales Cloud but Cloud overpowers him and chucks him into the Mako.
That was Cloud's only awesome scene ever.

Vampire Savior
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
but there is no basis for Genesis being stronger than Seph. I know, it was just a thought.

Dark-Jaxx
Well next time you have a thought, just let it go. stick out tongue

Mazy
This is so old. I still like CC so I'll comment.
I read somewhere that Genesis is stronger in DoC when he returns.
Most of the fan boys seem to think that Sephiroth never went 'all out' but if you've actually played the main FFVII you'd know that Sephiroth ONLY toys around with Cloud. Not anyone else. So it's safe to assume he wasn't holding back. Throughout the scene he was mainly deflected Genesis's blows. But clearly caught him off guard when Sephiroth did some weird thing by going down and then slicing the ground. Of course Sephiroth didn't want to kill Genesis though but he wasn't holding back.
I've also read that apparently Genesis and Sephiroth are equal in power but he was degrading so was weaker now. Hence why he lost the fights with Zack.

NemeBro
Goddamn, has it really been over four years?

Zack Fair
Necro thread...this was even before Complete came out. Nothing really changed..although complete made the whole Omnislahs V5 vs Sephiroth deal a bit more clear. Sephiroth did try to defend against it but was not able to.

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